Ologies with Alie Ward

Episode: Historical Toxicology (OLD TIMEY POISONS) with Deborah Blum
Date: October 29, 2025
Guest: Deborah Blum (Pulitzer Prize-winning author, journalist, historian of science)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the fascinating—and often gruesome—history of toxicology, focusing on poisons of the past ("old timey poisons"). Host Alie Ward and guest expert Deborah Blum (author of The Poisoner's Handbook) explore how poisons were used, detected, and understood in history, with digressions into language, legend, true crime, and the legacy of poison detection in science and society. They discuss everything from the etymology of toxicology to gendered myths of poisoning, murder investigations, notorious poisoners, and Victorian fashions that literally killed, all with wit, insight, and empathy for the human stories behind the science.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Definitions: Poison, Toxin, and Venom (00:43–09:57)

Toxicology originates from old words meaning "poisoned arrow," with roots tracing back to yew trees used for making bows.
Deborah Blum explains the distinction:
- Poisons is a broad term for substances that can cause harm or death.
- Toxins specifically refer to naturally occurring (usually plant or animal-derived) poisons, not minerals.
- Venom is a type of poison actively delivered by an animal (injected rather than ingested).
Misconceptions about terminologies: Many use 'poison' and 'venom' interchangeably, but that's inaccurate. For example, all scorpions are venomous (inject venom), but not poisonous (toxic if eaten).
Memorable moment:

“I just want to say to people, just use the overall term ‘poison.’ This is a poisonous thing. Right? Then you’re always guaranteed to be right.”
—Deborah Blum (09:11)
Famous warning symbols—like the skull and crossbones—only date to the 1850s. The "Mr. Yuk" sticker was created for child safety in the 1970s because skulls were weirdly appealing to children.

Chemistry of Poisons—Metals vs. Plant Alkaloids (14:18–16:31)

Metallic poisons (arsenic, antimony, lead, copper) bioaccumulate in the body and can cause harm even at low, chronic exposures.
Plant alkaloids (e.g., cyanide) act fast and typically have an identifiable taste or acute effects.
Arsenic is insidious as a tasteless, odorless, broad-spectrum killer, ideal for gradual or hidden murder. In contrast, cyanide acts quickly and painfully but has a distinct taste/smell for many.
Notable quote:

“With a metalloid poison like arsenic, you don’t have to do that. It’s tasteless, it’s odorless... You could dose someone gradually and mimic the symptoms of a natural illness.”
—Deborah Blum (19:52)

History: Poison as a Murder Weapon and Its Detection (19:40–39:23)

Arsenic was so ubiquitous and effective it was called "inheritance powder" in 19th-century Europe.
It entered society via cosmetics (for a pale complexion), green dyes (Scheele’s Green), candies, candles, and medicines.
Famous cases: The Bradford candy poisoning (1860s England) killed ~20 people—prompting early food safety laws.
Detection Innovations:
- Early forensic toxicologists relied on symptoms and crude animal tests.
- The Marsh test (1838), a chemical test for arsenic, left a "black mirror" deposit if arsenic was present.
- Plant alkaloids were harder to detect until much later (nicotine murder in the 1870s spurred progress).
On the growth of toxicology:

“What Marsh did is ... you’d get it super hot and create a vapor... And if there was arsenic in the vapor, then it would form what’s called an ‘arsenic mirror’ on the glass...”
—Deborah Blum (34:19)
Book highlight: Deborah’s The Poisoner’s Handbook chronicles New York’s early-1900s pioneers, Charles Norris (medical examiner) and chemist Alexander Gettler, who professionalized forensic toxicology.

Modern Forensic Toxicology & Limits (40:51–45:17)

Today, chemical analysis (e.g., gas chromatography) enables detection of many poisons from minute tissue samples.
Limitation: You often need to know what you're looking for. Cases of rare poisons can stump even modern labs if not suspected.
Autopsy case: Modern cyanide poisoning was initially missed because "no one gets poisoned by cyanide anymore." The clue was lactic acidosis, discovered only after death. The perpetrator was caught partly due to a careless department credit card.

“They didn’t test for cyanide. Why would they? ... the way they figured it out was ... [the doctor] noticed that her muscles were oxygen starved...”
—Deborah Blum (44:19)

Gender and Poison: The "Women's Weapon" Myth (50:49–55:29)

Historical association: Women have long been suspected of using poison, sometimes seen as the "great equalizer."
19th-century Britain even considered banning women from buying arsenic.
Data: Poisoning is chosen by women ~7 times more than men (among women who commit murder), but more murders overall are by men (who more often use violence).

"We think of poison as a woman’s weapon, but it is also a male weapon—just not to the same degree."
—Deborah Blum (51:59)
Motivation: Historically, women's use of poison often related to powerlessness, self-defense, or necessity, not just greed or malice. Caretaker roles also provided access to kitchen chemicals.

Legendary Poisons: Aqua Tofana and Iocaine Powder (55:29–63:16)

Aqua Tofana: Arsenic-based legendary Renaissance poison, said to kill hundreds (likely an exaggeration). Provided by Julia Tofana and alleged female networks, often to help trapped, abused women. Bottled as “holy water” to avoid suspicion.

"It’s almost like a name for this network of female poison dispensers..."
—Deborah Blum (56:55)
Iocaine powder (Princess Bride): Entirely fictional, but inspired by historical beliefs about building immunity to arsenic by microdosing. Modern science shows this doesn’t work; chronic arsenic exposure only weakens and sickens.

“The only thing chronic exposure to arsenic does is weaken your immune system and make you more prone to die.”
—Deborah Blum (63:16)

Poisons in Pop Culture: Movies, Music, and Myths (46:37–48:33)

Movies get poison wrong—particularly cyanide. It doesn’t destroy teeth instantly or kill in seconds, despite what James Bond films or TV shows portray.
Deborah Blum’s pet peeve: "I am exactly the person my husband leaves the room if we're watching a movie that he calls poison, because I’m always like, 'No, no, it didn’t happen that way.’”
Music moment: Deborah’s walk-on song of choice? “Poison” by Bell Biv DeVoe (“Oh, that girl is poison!”).

Social and Political Dimensions of Poison (59:27–61:06)

Poison, witchcraft, rebellion: Poisoning was linked to accusations of witchcraft, particularly against women, slaves, and indigenous peoples. Slaveholders documented efforts to restrict enslaved persons’ access to poisonous plants.

“Poison, again, is self defense and rebel. It runs through our sort of history of the use of poison in a very consistent way.”
—Deborah Blum (60:43)

The Emotional Weight and Legacy of Murder by Poison (67:47–73:22)

The aftermath of murder—especially by poison—can devastate families for generations, as in the story of a 16-year-old stenographer killed in a mass arsenic poisoning, whose family's suffering lasted a century.

“Murder casts a really long shadow... some of that suffering continues for generations.”
—Deborah Blum (69:41)
Deborah receives letters from readers suspecting old family deaths by poison, sometimes sending bits of hair for advice. She always emphasizes both compassion and proper scientific procedure.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Deborah Blum on being drawn to poisons:

“They're the most devious of all chemistry... The idea that you can match together both with poisoners, who are among the most devious murderers, with compounds that are among the most devious in known chemistry is just endlessly fascinating to me.” (04:43)
On arsenic:

“It was the first poison we were able to find in a human body... But arsenic is also a fascinating environmental contaminant... At very low levels it’s also poisonous, but in a very different way.” (28:57, 30:19)
On the purpose of writing about poison history:

"Our history is littered with people who were high profile or stars of their field at the time that we've since forgotten. And so it's just such a pleasure... to say, let me bring this story back to life so you can see these people and what they did." (07:23)
On misconception in media:

"It did not. I was literally yelling at the screen, right? ... There’s no way it would have destroyed his teeth." (46:41)

Key Timestamps for Main Segments

00:43 – 09:57: Poison vs. Toxin vs. Venom definitions, language quirks, and public warning symbols
14:18 – 21:15: Metal vs. alkaloid poisons; arsenic as a murderer’s favorite tool
26:57 – 33:30: Victorian poisons, food safety, famous poisonings
33:30 – 39:23: The birth of forensic toxicology—Marsh test, early plant alkaloid detection
39:23 – 45:17: Forensic science advances; modern detection, contemporary case study
50:49 – 55:29: Gender, murder, and the myth of the "woman’s weapon"
55:29 – 59:27: Aqua Tofana; legends and feminist perspectives
61:29 – 63:16: Iocaine powder, Princess Bride, and arsenic microdosing fiction vs fact
67:47 – 73:22: The emotional and familial aftermath of murder; letters from readers

Tone & Style

The conversation is approachable, witty, and rich in both historical and forensic detail.
Alie and Deborah balance scientific accuracy with empathy—especially regarding victims’ stories.
The show is peppered with humor, pop culture references, and the contagious enthusiasm of both host and guest.

Closing Thoughts

Deborah Blum reminds us that poison—for all its infamy—is a lens onto society’s changing fears, scientific progress, and quests for justice. While most of us will never encounter a nefarious dose, the history of toxicology is deeply human: fraught with suffering, resilience, and innovation. And sometimes, with a bit of humor and a lot of science, we can save lives and solve mysteries—even a century later.

Ologies with Alie Ward

Episode: Historical Toxicology (OLD TIMEY POISONS) with Deborah Blum
Date: October 29, 2025
Guest: Deborah Blum (Pulitzer Prize-winning author, journalist, historian of science)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Definitions: Poison, Toxin, and Venom (00:43–09:57)

Toxicology originates from old words meaning "poisoned arrow," with roots tracing back to yew trees used for making bows.
Deborah Blum explains the distinction:
- Poisons is a broad term for substances that can cause harm or death.
- Toxins specifically refer to naturally occurring (usually plant or animal-derived) poisons, not minerals.
- Venom is a type of poison actively delivered by an animal (injected rather than ingested).
Misconceptions about terminologies: Many use 'poison' and 'venom' interchangeably, but that's inaccurate. For example, all scorpions are venomous (inject venom), but not poisonous (toxic if eaten).
Memorable moment:

“I just want to say to people, just use the overall term ‘poison.’ This is a poisonous thing. Right? Then you’re always guaranteed to be right.”
—Deborah Blum (09:11)
Famous warning symbols—like the skull and crossbones—only date to the 1850s. The "Mr. Yuk" sticker was created for child safety in the 1970s because skulls were weirdly appealing to children.

Chemistry of Poisons—Metals vs. Plant Alkaloids (14:18–16:31)

Metallic poisons (arsenic, antimony, lead, copper) bioaccumulate in the body and can cause harm even at low, chronic exposures.
Plant alkaloids (e.g., cyanide) act fast and typically have an identifiable taste or acute effects.
Arsenic is insidious as a tasteless, odorless, broad-spectrum killer, ideal for gradual or hidden murder. In contrast, cyanide acts quickly and painfully but has a distinct taste/smell for many.
Notable quote:

“With a metalloid poison like arsenic, you don’t have to do that. It’s tasteless, it’s odorless... You could dose someone gradually and mimic the symptoms of a natural illness.”
—Deborah Blum (19:52)

History: Poison as a Murder Weapon and Its Detection (19:40–39:23)

Arsenic was so ubiquitous and effective it was called "inheritance powder" in 19th-century Europe.
It entered society via cosmetics (for a pale complexion), green dyes (Scheele’s Green), candies, candles, and medicines.
Famous cases: The Bradford candy poisoning (1860s England) killed ~20 people—prompting early food safety laws.
Detection Innovations:
- Early forensic toxicologists relied on symptoms and crude animal tests.
- The Marsh test (1838), a chemical test for arsenic, left a "black mirror" deposit if arsenic was present.
- Plant alkaloids were harder to detect until much later (nicotine murder in the 1870s spurred progress).
On the growth of toxicology:

“What Marsh did is ... you’d get it super hot and create a vapor... And if there was arsenic in the vapor, then it would form what’s called an ‘arsenic mirror’ on the glass...”
—Deborah Blum (34:19)
Book highlight: Deborah’s The Poisoner’s Handbook chronicles New York’s early-1900s pioneers, Charles Norris (medical examiner) and chemist Alexander Gettler, who professionalized forensic toxicology.

Modern Forensic Toxicology & Limits (40:51–45:17)

Today, chemical analysis (e.g., gas chromatography) enables detection of many poisons from minute tissue samples.
Limitation: You often need to know what you're looking for. Cases of rare poisons can stump even modern labs if not suspected.
Autopsy case: Modern cyanide poisoning was initially missed because "no one gets poisoned by cyanide anymore." The clue was lactic acidosis, discovered only after death. The perpetrator was caught partly due to a careless department credit card.

“They didn’t test for cyanide. Why would they? ... the way they figured it out was ... [the doctor] noticed that her muscles were oxygen starved...”
—Deborah Blum (44:19)

Gender and Poison: The "Women's Weapon" Myth (50:49–55:29)

Historical association: Women have long been suspected of using poison, sometimes seen as the "great equalizer."
19th-century Britain even considered banning women from buying arsenic.
Data: Poisoning is chosen by women ~7 times more than men (among women who commit murder), but more murders overall are by men (who more often use violence).

"We think of poison as a woman’s weapon, but it is also a male weapon—just not to the same degree."
—Deborah Blum (51:59)
Motivation: Historically, women's use of poison often related to powerlessness, self-defense, or necessity, not just greed or malice. Caretaker roles also provided access to kitchen chemicals.

Legendary Poisons: Aqua Tofana and Iocaine Powder (55:29–63:16)

Aqua Tofana: Arsenic-based legendary Renaissance poison, said to kill hundreds (likely an exaggeration). Provided by Julia Tofana and alleged female networks, often to help trapped, abused women. Bottled as “holy water” to avoid suspicion.

"It’s almost like a name for this network of female poison dispensers..."
—Deborah Blum (56:55)
Iocaine powder (Princess Bride): Entirely fictional, but inspired by historical beliefs about building immunity to arsenic by microdosing. Modern science shows this doesn’t work; chronic arsenic exposure only weakens and sickens.

“The only thing chronic exposure to arsenic does is weaken your immune system and make you more prone to die.”
—Deborah Blum (63:16)

Poisons in Pop Culture: Movies, Music, and Myths (46:37–48:33)

Movies get poison wrong—particularly cyanide. It doesn’t destroy teeth instantly or kill in seconds, despite what James Bond films or TV shows portray.
Deborah Blum’s pet peeve: "I am exactly the person my husband leaves the room if we're watching a movie that he calls poison, because I’m always like, 'No, no, it didn’t happen that way.’”
Music moment: Deborah’s walk-on song of choice? “Poison” by Bell Biv DeVoe (“Oh, that girl is poison!”).

Social and Political Dimensions of Poison (59:27–61:06)

Poison, witchcraft, rebellion: Poisoning was linked to accusations of witchcraft, particularly against women, slaves, and indigenous peoples. Slaveholders documented efforts to restrict enslaved persons’ access to poisonous plants.

“Poison, again, is self defense and rebel. It runs through our sort of history of the use of poison in a very consistent way.”
—Deborah Blum (60:43)

The Emotional Weight and Legacy of Murder by Poison (67:47–73:22)

The aftermath of murder—especially by poison—can devastate families for generations, as in the story of a 16-year-old stenographer killed in a mass arsenic poisoning, whose family's suffering lasted a century.

“Murder casts a really long shadow... some of that suffering continues for generations.”
—Deborah Blum (69:41)
Deborah receives letters from readers suspecting old family deaths by poison, sometimes sending bits of hair for advice. She always emphasizes both compassion and proper scientific procedure.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Deborah Blum on being drawn to poisons:

“They're the most devious of all chemistry... The idea that you can match together both with poisoners, who are among the most devious murderers, with compounds that are among the most devious in known chemistry is just endlessly fascinating to me.” (04:43)
On arsenic:

“It was the first poison we were able to find in a human body... But arsenic is also a fascinating environmental contaminant... At very low levels it’s also poisonous, but in a very different way.” (28:57, 30:19)
On the purpose of writing about poison history:

"Our history is littered with people who were high profile or stars of their field at the time that we've since forgotten. And so it's just such a pleasure... to say, let me bring this story back to life so you can see these people and what they did." (07:23)
On misconception in media:

"It did not. I was literally yelling at the screen, right? ... There’s no way it would have destroyed his teeth." (46:41)

Key Timestamps for Main Segments

00:43 – 09:57: Poison vs. Toxin vs. Venom definitions, language quirks, and public warning symbols
14:18 – 21:15: Metal vs. alkaloid poisons; arsenic as a murderer’s favorite tool
26:57 – 33:30: Victorian poisons, food safety, famous poisonings
33:30 – 39:23: The birth of forensic toxicology—Marsh test, early plant alkaloid detection
39:23 – 45:17: Forensic science advances; modern detection, contemporary case study
50:49 – 55:29: Gender, murder, and the myth of the "woman’s weapon"
55:29 – 59:27: Aqua Tofana; legends and feminist perspectives
61:29 – 63:16: Iocaine powder, Princess Bride, and arsenic microdosing fiction vs fact
67:47 – 73:22: The emotional and familial aftermath of murder; letters from readers

Tone & Style

The conversation is approachable, witty, and rich in both historical and forensic detail.
Alie and Deborah balance scientific accuracy with empathy—especially regarding victims’ stories.
The show is peppered with humor, pop culture references, and the contagious enthusiasm of both host and guest.

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Historical Toxicology (OLD TIMEY POISONS) with Deborah Blum

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Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Definitions: Poison, Toxin, and Venom (00:43–09:57)

Chemistry of Poisons—Metals vs. Plant Alkaloids (14:18–16:31)

History: Poison as a Murder Weapon and Its Detection (19:40–39:23)

Modern Forensic Toxicology & Limits (40:51–45:17)

Gender and Poison: The "Women's Weapon" Myth (50:49–55:29)

Legendary Poisons: Aqua Tofana and Iocaine Powder (55:29–63:16)

Poisons in Pop Culture: Movies, Music, and Myths (46:37–48:33)

Social and Political Dimensions of Poison (59:27–61:06)

The Emotional Weight and Legacy of Murder by Poison (67:47–73:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Key Timestamps for Main Segments

Tone & Style

Further Reading & References

Closing Thoughts

Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Definitions: Poison, Toxin, and Venom (00:43–09:57)

Chemistry of Poisons—Metals vs. Plant Alkaloids (14:18–16:31)

History: Poison as a Murder Weapon and Its Detection (19:40–39:23)

Modern Forensic Toxicology & Limits (40:51–45:17)

Gender and Poison: The "Women's Weapon" Myth (50:49–55:29)

Legendary Poisons: Aqua Tofana and Iocaine Powder (55:29–63:16)

Poisons in Pop Culture: Movies, Music, and Myths (46:37–48:33)

Social and Political Dimensions of Poison (59:27–61:06)

The Emotional Weight and Legacy of Murder by Poison (67:47–73:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Key Timestamps for Main Segments

Tone & Style

Further Reading & References

Closing Thoughts