Ologies with Alie Ward

Genocidology (CRIMES OF ATROCITY) Part 2 with Dr. Dirk Moses

Release Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Alie Ward
Guest: Dr. Dirk Moses (Professor of Political Science, genocide scholar)

Overview

This deeply informative and sobering episode continues Ologies’ exploration of “Genocidology”—the study of genocide—with a 2025 update focused on the ongoing war in Gaza. Alie Ward is joined again by Dr. Dirk Moses, acclaimed genocide studies scholar, and Mercedes Maitland, researcher and producer. Together, they dissect recent legal, historical, and political perspectives on what constitutes genocide, how the term is wielded, weaknesses in international law, and why definitions and recognition matter. Through the lens of the Gaza conflict, the episode examines public opinion, evidence, state and international responses, the frustrating impotence of global legal frameworks, and the psychological and social consequences of bearing witness to atrocity in real-time.

Content warnings throughout: This episode discusses genocide, war crimes, civilian casualties, the holocaust, racism, colonial violence, and state-sanctioned atrocities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Changing Perceptions of the Gaza Conflict and Genocide

(06:27 – 09:05)

• Academic and public opinion has shifted over the last year and a half regarding Israel’s military actions in Gaza; leading human rights organizations now label the actions as genocide.

• The transition seen by some academics: a shift from military objectives ("neutralizing Hamas") to the broader goal of "destruction of Palestinian society as such.”
  Quote:

  “A number of scholars have identified a transition from … neutralizing Hamas as a military force, from that to a genocidal objective, which is the destruction of Palestinian society as such.”
  — Dr. Dirk Moses (06:36)

• Disagreement persists over when genocide began—some say with the 2023 escalation, others place it at the origin of the conflict.

• Genocide as a legal concept only dates to the 1940s, complicating long-standing debates about the morality and legality of state violence.

2. Defining Genocide vs. War Crimes vs. Crimes Against Humanity

(09:05 – 13:05)

• Alie offers a refresher:

  • Genocide targets protected groups as such (ethnic, religious, racial, as defined in UN convention).
  • War crimes are violations during conflict (hostage-taking, torture, mass killings, etc.).
  • Crimes against humanity target civilians broadly; can occur in war or peacetime.

• The issue of “self-defense” in international law is complicated by the ambiguous and often circular logic applied to ongoing conflicts like Gaza.

3. Longstanding Historical Context

(13:05 – 15:53)

• The 1948 Nakba and subsequent wars form the backdrop to the latest violence, debunking narratives claiming the conflict began in 2023.
• Displacement and settler colonialism are deeply entwined in the history.

4. Documentation, Information Suppression, and Social Media

(13:55; 34:26 – 41:15)

• YouTube and Google removed hundreds of videos and human rights accounts documenting Israeli violations, influenced by US policy.
• Social media (especially TikTok) offers unprecedented real-time witness accounts, affecting the perception and psychological toll, particularly on younger people.
  Quote:

  “When they talk about a live-stream genocide, they mean it literally, because they're following…particular people who are in Gaza...They're seeing it live. I mean, it's unprecedented.”
  — Dr. Dirk Moses (35:22)

5. Problems with the Legal Definition and Prosecution of Genocide

(15:53 – 24:31; 55:33 – 58:02)

• The legacy of the Holocaust and the origins of the term “genocide” have shaped an extremely high evidentiary threshold in law: For an act to be genocide, it must “resemble the Holocaust.”
• This creates a paradox: mass killing on a greater scale can be classified as “war crimes,” but not genocide, leading to a hierarchy that often makes genocide charges nearly impossible to secure. Quote:

  “You can kill 60 times more people in self-defense and it not be as bad as the initial attack…And yet genocide is considered worse because of this demonic…intention ascribed to it.”
  — Dr. Dirk Moses (19:22)

6. International Law’s Limits, Global Hypocrisy, and (Non-)Prevention

(24:31 – 30:04; 38:30 – 41:26; 62:38 – 67:47)

• The international community rarely interrupts genocides, with interventions blocked by great power interests (e.g. US and Israel, China and Myanmar).

• Responsibility to Protect (R2P) is referenced in UN doctrine but often goes unheeded, especially when powerful nations wield their veto.

• US complicity in Gaza—continued arms supply, financial support, diplomatic shielding, and repeated Security Council vetoes—has been well-documented. Quote:

  “There's symmetry there. And they will continue to sell weapons and provide support for its client, because for them, there's a geopolitical interest.”
  — Dr. Dirk Moses (24:34)

• Preventing or stopping genocide is often sacrificed for realpolitik.

7. Witnessing Modern Atrocity, Trauma, and Protest

(34:26 – 42:11)

• Social media exacerbates the collective trauma and psychological effects of witnessing continuous violence, fueling protest and also backlash.

• Protesters and activists are being criminalized, with increasing legal threats against those opposing state policy (“domestic terrorism” executive orders in the US). Quote:

  “Witnessing immense suffering like that cumulatively does affect the brain and literally can drive people crazy... vicarious PTSD symptoms.”
  — Dr. Dirk Moses (38:30)

• The conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is purposefully exploited to silence criticism, as recognized by the UN and various advocacy organizations.

8. The ‘Genocide’ Label: Power, Politics, and Memory

(55:33 – 58:02; 69:01 – 74:51)

• The genocide label remains coveted, yet its legal application is often unattainable. Many victims of mass killings remain ineligible for this recognition unless validated by courts or curriculum.

• Dr. Moses is critical of the outsized value placed on the term, with victim communities seeking validation from scholars, and state actors gaming the language to avoid consequences.

• Selective commemoration results in some atrocities being recognized, others forgotten.

• Quote:

  “Academics…do want to add nuance and make things complex. Why would it make you feel better if some random academic from Australia that agrees with you, that is genocide?...What is it about the stigma that genocide implies?”
  — Dr. Dirk Moses (72:58)

9. Case Study: The Gaza Ceasefire and Future Outlook

(60:28 – 67:47)

• Recent ceasefire proposals, often driven by foreign interests and absent Palestinian input, offer little hope for real self-determination.
• The humanitarian crisis persists, with Israel still restricting aid and violating ceasefire terms.
• The prospect is bleak for genuine accountability or justice in the near future; changes in international law or power structures are unlikely soon.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On shifting definitions and confusion:

  “What does this word [genocide] do—and how does it lead to this confusion about what is legitimate and illegitimate state violence?” — Dr. Dirk Moses (06:48)

• On the banality of legal inaction:

  “The UN is a pretty weak organization at the end…I mean it's not an independent state. There's no global government.” — Dr. Dirk Moses (27:17)

• Historical analogy:

  “Our retrospective sense of the significance of the Holocaust was not how it was registered and appreciated at the time…” — Dr. Dirk Moses (42:10)

• On the personal cost for academics:

  “I'm observing that there are academics…who talked about genocide from day one, who have paid a professional price.” — Dr. Dirk Moses (69:01)

• On the problematic “hierarchy of crimes”:

  “Why do we think genocide is worse than crimes against humanity when, say, the same number of victims are at stake? What is it about the stigma that genocide implies?” — Dr. Dirk Moses (72:58)

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Topic | |-------------|----------------| | 01:31–06:27 | Intro, recap of previous episode, guest bio, content warning | | 06:27–09:05 | Evolving scholarly and public perceptions of Gaza and genocide | | 09:05–13:05 | Definitions of genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity | | 13:55–14:44 | Evidence suppression: YouTube takedowns of Palestinian testimonies | | 14:44–19:22 | How definitions and historic cases create confusion/hierarchies | | 19:22–24:31 | Database targeting, US weapons transfers, intention & proportionality | | 24:31–30:04 | International inaction, "Responsibility to Protect" doctrine | | 34:26–41:15 | Social media’s role in bearing witness and shaping protest | | 55:33–58:02 | Evolution (non-evolution) of legal concepts; the impossibility of prosecution | | 60:28–67:47 | The new ceasefire, lack of Palestinian agency, future prospects | | 69:01–74:51 | The academic and societal politics of “recognizing” genocide |

Final Takeaways

• The Gaza war is a potent case study in how definitions and legal frameworks both create and hinder opportunities for justice and accountability.
• Global power politics, rather than moral or legal clarity, almost always dictate whether atrocities are acknowledged, prevented, or punished.
• The current generation witnesses genocide in real-time but remains largely powerless to change outcomes; the psychological impact on witnesses and protestors is profound.
• The contested meaning and hierarchical application of the term "genocide" obscure more than they reveal, leaving many victims forgotten and many perpetrators unpunished.
• As Dr. Moses reflects, perhaps scholarship’s most useful contribution is to question why we need certain words and labels—and who benefits from their application or denial.

Further Resources

• Dirk Moses’ book: The Problems of Permanent Security and the Language of Transgression (2021)
• September 2025 article: "Gaza and the Problems of Genocide Studies" (Journal of Genocide Research)
• Hand of Salvation fundraiser (supporting displaced Gazans)
• Further reading in the episode’s show notes