← Ologies with Alie Ward
Ologies with Alie Ward
Ornithorhynchology (PLATYPUSES) with Tahneal Hawke
01:09:28
Duck bills. Beaver tails. Underground lairs. Eggs. Milk. Venom? A platypus has it all. Scholar, conservationist, and Ornithorhynchologist Dr. Tahneal Hawke is here to run through the baffling anatomy and answer all of our WHAT’S THE DEAL, WHAT EVEN *ARE* THEY questions, and chat about field work, evolution, how to spot a platypus, why you can’t have one in your bathtub, and myths about platypus espionage. Also, a platypus might be sexier than you.
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A
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A
Oh hey, it's the coffee shop guy who is happy to heat up your muffin. Alie ward. And though we can't all be in Australia right now, we are all here for platypuses. What is with this ology? You ask me horrified by the amount of letters. Well, Ornithorhynchus in Greek, those that word, that portmanteau of words means bird like. And the species we're going to be chatting about, anatomist means duck like. So so these critters names literally translate to bird like, duck like. Although there was this outmoded species named paradoxus, which just means unexpected platypus itself. That word means big flat feet. We're going to talk about those two as well as this other just constellation of confusions that is the platypus. But first, thank you so much to patrons of the show who make it happen by joining for as little as a dollar a month. Thank you to everyone checking out Smallogies, our shorter kid friendly episodes. You can subscribe to wherever you get podcasts. Those are linked in the show Notes. Thanks to everyone finding each other in the wild in your ologies merch from ologiesmerch.com and thanks as always to people who review the show. I read them all. They help so much to prove it. Here's a wet one from Jordan D. Friend who wrote that Ologies is like the best comfort food and a warm hug combined. Jordan D. Friend I'm embracing some bread pudding in return. And on to this week's guests who got their PhD in Biological Sciences with a focus on impacts of river regulation on platypus population dynamics from Sydney's University of New South Wales, where they are now a joint Senior Research Associate, as well as at Taronga Conservation Society. They have nearly a decade in monitoring wild platypus populations. They've worked with nearly 500 wild ones, publishing numerous papers on these animals, including field anesthesia for platypuses, a proven method in the case for non veterinarian accreditation pathways in the journal Australian Mammalogy. They let me ask so many befuddled questions on mine and your behalf. So say goodbye to Smalltalk about the weather forever, because this single episode of Ologies will give you icebreakers for the rest of your life. As we touch on their fur, their face, their butts, their tails, their evolution, their conservation, how to spot a platypus, why you shouldn't have one in your bathtub Field work down under platypuses and espionage milk, eggs, hoaxes and a lot of soft, stunned gasps with biologist, conservationist, scholar, professor and ornithorhynchologist, Dr. Tenille Hawk.
- [04:24]
B
It's Neil Hawke. My pronouns are she, her.
- [04:27]
A
Okay, first things first. Platypuses, platypi. What's the deal?
- [04:31]
B
So platypuses, technically platypodes, but that's not really widely used. The reason is because it's actually Greek origin. So if it was Latin origin, it would be platypi. But because it's Greek origin, we go. We generally go with platypuses.
- [04:48]
A
Okay, that makes sense. And it solves the most burning question in a lot of people's minds.
- [04:53]
B
That is, I would say, my most asked question.
- [04:57]
A
Okay, good, we got it right off the top. Well, it's been great Talking to you and I hope you have a great rest of your day. And that's it. That's all I got.
- [05:04]
B
No, I'm kidding.
- [05:06]
A
What about species? Are there a lot of them or just one?
- [05:10]
B
Just one species of platypus right across their range, which is like pretty unique. We're kind of looking into the genetics a bit and there's kind of a bit of a difference, you know, across east to west, but not enough to even be a subspecies. So just one species? Yeah.
- [05:27]
A
Are they slightly different sizes or something or do they just have different vibes?
- [05:32]
B
A bit of a different size. So platypuses in Australia, they extend from kind of up north in Cairns in Queensland all the way down to Tasmania, so right along the east coast of Australia. So if you're up north, you'll find that the platypuses are much smaller. But when you come down to Tassie, they're starting to get pretty big. Like a male will be around three kilos. So there's quite a size difference.
- [05:54]
A
Six and a half pounds. So a little more than a standard bag of flour or a 2 liter bottle of soda. I should not be drinking. And those babies as tiny as half a kilo or a pound. But on average, if you had to compare them to a size dog or a cat, like, what kind of pet would they be, size wise?
- [06:15]
B
I guess smaller than both. Like your standard dog? Yeah, much smaller. Like maybe a small kitten vibe, I guess. Yeah. Really?
- [06:25]
A
They're that small?
- [06:26]
B
Yeah. A lot of people when they see them, they're quite surprised by the size. They expect them to be kind of like, you know, like otter. Beaver size. Yeah, yeah, but definitely much smaller. Like I guess average would be around a kilo, a kilo and a half and about 50 centimeters. So yeah, they're much smaller than what people expect.
- [06:43]
A
So about 20 inches long and weighing three and a half pounds. Or like the teacuppiest Yorkie that you can fathom. I never knew that. I thought they were beaver sized. Or like if you had a friend who has like a 20 pound cat and you go, whoa, that's a big one. I thought they'd be about that.
- [07:00]
B
Yeah, no, much smaller. Much smaller.
- [07:02]
A
Holy smokes. Okay. And there's only one species, only Australia.
- [07:07]
B
Only Australia, yeah. So endemic to Australia, which, you know, makes them very unique in terms of their evolution.
- [07:13]
A
Do many zoos even carry them, have any in stock?
- [07:19]
B
Yeah, so it's a bit of a hot topic. Platypus, like they're pretty hard to keep in captivity. There are a few institutions, so we have Taronga Zoo in Sydney and out at Dubbo here that house platypus really successfully and also Healesville Sanctuary down in Victoria, who have like a long history of having platypus in captivity. And, you know, they're really kind of. They know how to house them well, they know what they need. And there's a few other institutions around Australia that do it really well. There is also over at San Diego Safari park, they've got a pair of platypuses that came over from Sydney a few years ago who are doing really well.
- [07:57]
A
So let's hear it for ambassador animals and probably reluctant Australian expats Eve Imbierung, whose name in aboriginal means a river of mists and shadows. And the two arrived in sunny San Diego in 2019. And the park keeps their night owl schedule by making sure their enclosure is dark during the day. And if you are looking for some breathless tabloid gossip about their personal lives, scientistish that Bira for short, is more relaxed with his keepers, but more active. And he's a, quote, sleep on top of the covers guy who's ready to go as soon as he sees his keepers at 6am however, Eve likes to sleep in all cozy is more talkative than Vera, greeting her keepers with, quote, a hissy growl vocalization when they check on her nest box. And if you were like, get these cuties in my eyes. But you can't make the trip to Australia or California or you're scared of the United States, you can livestream San Diego Safari Park's platypus cam. And if you're like, not to complain, but why doesn't my zoo have ambassador rescue platypuses to enrich my life?
- [09:09]
B
So there are a few institutions, but the problem is they're really hard to breed in captivity. So, you know, they're only really coming into these zoos if they're coming in as, like rehab animals, if they're coming in from the wild injured. So that's really the only way that we can kind of get those animals in captivity.
- [09:26]
A
Are they bonded pairs? Like when you say that they've sent a pair, are they like, we've shipped them? We love them. They love each other.
- [09:33]
B
Let's send them over. No, so platypus is solitary. So, you know, they don't mate for life. They don't have bonded pairs. That's just kind of a pair of our own doing, I guess. Like, you know, they got along pretty well at the zoo. So yeah, they went off To San Diego together.
- [09:48]
A
It's like married at first sight.
- [09:50]
B
Yeah, pretty much.
- [09:51]
A
They're like, you're just gonna see how it goes, you know? Where are they living? I picture them living in little creeks or ponds, but I don't know.
- [10:03]
B
So rivers and creeks is their primary habitat? It depends on the size. Like, generally they cope well with most conditions. Their ideal foraging depths are about 1 to 5 meters. So that's kind of where they really like hanging out. But along the East Coast? Yeah, if you're lucky enough, you'll find them in most river systems, as long as there hasn't been, like, any significant degradation. But, yeah, they're pretty much just hanging out in all the rivers and streams along the eastern side of Australia.
- [10:33]
A
You said five meters. So they can dive down to, like, 15ft. Are they holding their breath in their little bills?
- [10:38]
B
Yeah, they're amazing divers. They'll be like, on the surface, they'll dive down, they'll close their eyes and ears, hold their breath, kind of scoot along the bottom looking for water bugs. And they can hold their breath for between, like, generally around two minutes if they're feeling threatened, they can hold it for much longer, like up to 10 minutes if they really want to relax and, like, lower their heart rate. But generally it's around the two to three minute mark that they'll be down, and then they'll kind of pop up to the surface and eat any of the bugs that they've found.
- [11:08]
A
So these sweet little weirdos, they're swimming around, they're clapping their little bills to eat up all kinds of aquatic bugs and worms and larvae and such underwater at night. How are they doing this? I can't find my lip balm in the darkness of my purse. How are they gobbling up so much in the dead of night with their eyes closed? This is. This is baffling and it's magic.
- [11:33]
B
So, yeah, essentially they're not relying on their eyes or their ears when they're underwater. So their bill is incredibly sensitive. It's got electroreceptors and mechanoreceptors, which essentially means, like, once they dive under the water, they're detecting all those electrical signals that any little water bugs, any freshwater shrimp or worms are giving off, and that's kind of guiding them to their position in the river, like down in all the mud. And so, yeah, they're able to just dive down, detect those signals, find their prey, and then they'll come back up to the surface where they'll eat their prey.
- [12:09]
A
What is that? Like a Is there metal in their bill?
- [12:14]
B
No. No. Yeah, super sensitive. They're called electro and mechanoreceptors. They've got about 50,000 of them in the bill, so it's highly sensitive to just any movement or electrical impulses that are happening in the waterway.
- [12:28]
A
Okay, so 50,000 tiny electric receptors. This is news to me, but it's not news to ornitho orchinologists. So a 1987 paper in the journal Nature titled Electroreceptors in the Platypus reads that it's been known since the 1800s that the bill of the platypus contains densely packed arrays of specialized receptor organs. Mechanoreceptive, that can detect movements of water currents and tension and pressure. But the electroreceptive has been more surprising historically. And it says that behavioral observations showed that a platypus could detect weak electrical dipoles. And it was suggested that the animal was able to locate moving prey by the electrical activity associated with the prey's muscle contractions. The bill, it's not a beak. It's a bill then, right? Or is it a beak? Is a bill a type of beak? Clearly, I don't know jack shit about this because all I know is that they're weird. They're like a Mr. Potato Head of different parts. This is why we love them. But, yeah, is it a bill? Is it a beak?
- [13:31]
B
So a lot of people are also shocked when they see a platypus because they, like. It's called a duck bill platypus. So people have this perception that the bill is going to be similar to what we would expect from a duck's beak. So quite hard. The bill is actually very soft on a platypus. It's almost like malleable, like you can bend it. It's very rubbery. And that's just because it's like, it's so sensitive. It contains all these, you know, electro and mechanoreceptors. Yeah, so very different to the beak of a duck, which a lot of people are surprised about.
- [14:05]
A
Do they got teeth in there? Are they mishmashing around the bugs? How do they chew?
- [14:09]
B
Yeah, no teeth. They are born with like some vestigial teeth which kind of helps them crack out of their egg. I'm Audi. But then as an adult, they don't have any teeth. They have what we call keratinized grinding pads. So inside the mouth, it's like these two kind of horny grooves that run kind of laterally. So when they come to the surface, they're kind of using their bill. They're kind of moving the top side to side and really grinding up all those little bugs into sort of a paste, really.
- [14:41]
A
Oh, well, speaking of horny grooves, they lay eggs.
- [14:45]
B
They do.
- [14:46]
A
Do they got jennies on the inside or the outside? How are they making more of themselves?
- [14:51]
B
Yeah, so there are monotreme. So yeah, they lay eggs and they have a cloaca. So both male and females have the cloaca similar to what we see in a chicken, which essentially means like all their reproduction and all their feces and all their urine and everything happens in a single hole. For the males, they have like, the penis. The testes are inside, in like internal. When mating happens, he'll kind of flop out his penis and. Yeah, into the cloaca of the female and they will engage in mating. Yeah.
- [15:25]
A
Did I hear wrong that it might be barbed?
- [15:28]
B
It is.
- [15:30]
A
Okay, Is it. How many forks? Like, is it the. Is it like the scepter of Neptune? What's happening?
- [15:36]
B
It is quite confronting, I'll be honest. It is like very alien esque is how I would describe it. So it comes out, it has like two heads, and then at the end of each head there is like several large spikes. But then the whole penis itself is also covered in smaller spikes. So. Yeah, not my idea of a good time. I'll put it like that. No.
- [16:02]
A
And they're not like koosh ball squishy spikes, are they? Are they like fingernail hard?
- [16:09]
B
Yeah, like they're not huge spikes, but they're definitely hard. Like I wouldn't want to touch it with my fingers. So I can't imagine it's too pleasant. How.
- [16:19]
A
Are there any platypuses on the planet?
- [16:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, good question.
- [16:26]
A
I mean, and is there. Is that evolutionary purpose? I know we can only probably speculate, but is that to clean out like sperm of competitors or. Or is it just because they were made of leftover parts?
- [16:39]
B
Yeah, don't really know, to be honest. It might be like something to do with just how they. They're mating in the water. So perhaps it's like a mechanism to make sure that they stay interlocked when they're mating. There's like a whole heap of circling maneuvers that are kind of happening. Often called like a love donut leading up to the breeding.
- [16:59]
A
Okay, so to test the quality of a mate, a female platypus will wrestle and chase around and kind of feel out the vibe before doing baby making. And part of this little sexual dance involves this trance like yin yang circle with their bodies where they clasp each other's floppy tails with their rubbery bills and then they just marry, go around in the water like that. So yeah, platypus is kind of 69.
- [17:25]
B
But then when that, when they're breeding, the male will be on top. But yeah, I'm like, we're not really sure about the mechanisms of, you know, why they have these barbs, but we do also see them in echidnas, which is their closest living species. And echidnas are on land, so I'm not sure of the evolutionary reasons why they've retained those spurs.
- [17:45]
A
So they have an egg that's fertilized through an arduous process that you probably could litigate if you were on land. Then does it pass through the oviduct and then or the cloaca like a bird and then do they have like a clutch of them or is it like one and done for this season.
- [18:02]
B
Once the female is pregnant, it's quite a quick process to egg laying. So the male and the female will mate usually within a week. After that, the female knows she's pregnant. She's going to start collecting nesting material. So they are a mammal, but they do construct a nest as you would expect a bird does, obviously because they're laying those eggs. So she's going to start collecting this nesting material, she's going to build a breeding bar in the riverbank and then she's going to start hauling all this nesting material deep into her burrow. She's going to construct a little nest and then, yeah, within, you know, about 10 days she's going to lay her eggs and then they're going to hatch pretty quickly after that.
- [18:43]
A
Wait, how fast?
- [18:44]
B
A week and a half, about 10 days. They're going to hatch. No.
- [18:48]
A
That's so fast.
- [18:50]
B
Yes, super quick. But when the eggs hatch they come out very small. So if like anyone's familiar with marsupials like kangaroos, they have like a tiny baby, like jelly bean size. So they're very primitive when they're born.
- [19:03]
A
But no pouch.
- [19:04]
B
No pouch, no.
- [19:05]
A
So these things again, the size of a teacup yorkie with a little bouncy flappy bill. They got a barbed dong and babies. Eggs mechanics are iconic. Lifestyle. No idea here. Do they normally sleep in a burrow? Like let's say that they're DILFs. Dual or what is it, dual income, no kids.
- [19:26]
B
Dinks.
- [19:27]
A
Let's say they're dinks. Dual income, no kids, they're child free. Would they sleep in a burrow anyway or would they just be like, I Don't have kids. So I'm going to sleep in this patch of wet grass.
- [19:37]
B
Most platypuses, I'd say 99% are going to sleep in a burrow every day. Obviously they need to breathe air so it's quite difficult for them to, you know, sleep in the river. So they'll construct what we call a resting burrow. And that's, you know, it's in the bank, it's maybe a couple of meters deep, but that's kind of where they're just hanging out during the day. So that's different to the breeding burrow. The breeding burrow is normally more complex, it's normally deeper. It might have like a series of chambers and yeah, it'll just be a bit more complex than those day to day burrows that they use.
- [20:12]
A
When they're in their burrows though, for the most part they're living solo.
- [20:16]
B
Yeah.
- [20:17]
A
Like when they're in their just sleeping burrows, they're just like living alone.
- [20:21]
B
Yeah. So this is kind of what we've always thought was the case, like I said earlier, that like a solitary animal. We are seeing some evidence just in a few of our recent studies that in certain populations where the density is quite high that we've noticed a number of females are kind of sleeping in these big condos of, you know, females getting together in one certain area. So whether that's like something to do with how many platypus there are or maybe at this location that's just like the prime real estate. And they're all trying to cram in there together. We don't know.
- [20:54]
A
They've gentrified the particular river bank. So sometimes, yes, there are big slumber parties with a bunch of moms and babies. Just like little sweet, furry stinky aliens underground. Do you have to get down there with fiber optic cameras? Are you checking it out? Are you doing like a Zillow home tour with a camera?
- [21:17]
B
Yeah. So in the wild it's super hard to do that. Once a platypus goes into the burrow, it could be sort of anywhere in the earth mound on the river bank. So we have had a few instances where we've put like a radio tracker on the platypus and then when it goes into the burrow, you can kind of use this antenna to kind of pinpoint where the animal is in the bank. And we have worked with a few documentary crews that managed to like, carefully, very hand drill like down through the soil. When once the female was, you know, out foraging in the river, we knew we Weren't going to disturb her hand drill down into that chamber and yeah, put a small flexible camera in and then kind of seal up the entrance. And we were able to get some really unique footage of those kind of puggles growing up in their burrow for a few weeks, which was really exciting. Puggles? Puggles, yes, they're called puggles. Well, I guess up for debate, I mean.
- [22:18]
A
Yeah, I vote.
- [22:18]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's my philosophy. Generally now it's kind of more accepted as puggles, but there's no real evidence of where that came from. And I know some of the, like old school researchers might prefer to use just juvenile platypus, but, you know, I think I will kind of. It gets the audience excited anyway.
- [22:39]
A
Like a tiny gummy bear puggle. Do they have little bills too?
- [22:45]
B
Yeah. So they're born. Like I said, they're primitive, but they're very much. They look like a platypus. They're just tiny and pink and very underdeveloped. Yeah. Very strange looking initially.
- [22:55]
A
Also I saw a video. Well, they're building a burrow and they're making a nest in there. Females will grab bunches of vegetation with their weird little tails and then they'll drag them into the hole, into the lair. Like if you were to try to drag a bushel of cornstalks through your front door. But the long way is so ambitious. How are they digging these underground catacombs? Don't they have like a webby foot?
- [23:24]
B
Yeah, so the front foot of the platypus, it's super specialized, so it is webbed. It's very well adapted to swimming in the rivers because that's kind of primarily what they're doing. But it also has. They also have like nails on them as well. So they can actually kind of fold back the webbing and then they can use their nails to dig these really like intricate burrows. So, yeah, there's a lot going on there. Oh, my God.
- [23:51]
A
It's like a pocket knife. They're just like. That's amazing. I mean, are they nocturnal? Because I've seen photos of researchers out and it looks like it's nighttime and people are wearing headlamps and are you just sneaking up on them while they're sleeping? Are they nocturnal?
- [24:07]
B
So primarily they are nocturnal for us to study them. Like it's all happening during the night. It depends on what season it is. So over the winter months and kind of leading into spring in Australia is their breeding season. So they might start coming out a bit more during the day, over those months, the males are trying to find females, they're trying to establish territory. So you might get a bit more daytime activity, but certainly predominantly at night. And all our research is definitely kind of focused over those evening hours.
- [24:40]
A
Okay, so you're working nocturnally. What is the life of a platypus expert? Like, do you brew coffee at like 5pm and you're like, get your hip waders on. And you're like, let's get to work, people.
- [24:51]
B
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I will say I've only started drinking coffee in the last few years and I'm not sure how I used to do this job without it, to be honest. But, yeah, like a typical day, you know, we're heading out sort of in the afternoon. We're looking for sites. You know, we've got a few considerations when it comes to net setting, like the depth of the river, which nets we can use, you know, if we can get access, how fast the river's flowing. And then, yeah, we spent a couple of hours kind of putting the nets up. We're hanging out, we're waiting. We're hoping for platypuses pretty much. And it depends, you know, on the project, but normally until the morning.
- [25:27]
A
Wow.
- [25:27]
B
And then we go again over and over.
- [25:30]
A
And do you know, is there like when you're fishing and there's like a bobbin? Like, how do you know if you've got one that's like, ah, I'm in the net.
- [25:39]
B
You got me. You got me. Yeah, it depends. So we have two types of nets. One is called an unweighted gill net, and it has like a series of floating buoys on top. And so when a platypus is foraging in the water, it'll hit that net, it'll immediately surface for air and it'll be splashing on the surface. So normally what will happen is we'll hear the splashes, but we're also kind of patrolling that net with the spotlight every couple of minutes just because we don't want to miss any action that's happening. We don't want to stress that animal out. And so we'll jump in the boat and we'll go and collect it from the net and put it in a pillowcase. Oh, yeah, yeah. The other type of net that we have is called a fyke net. That's where we're putting our waders on. You know, we're going into the river, we're setting these nets. They're very different. So the platypus is kind of funneled into a series of chambers. So it can be resting in the water, it can be resting out of the water. And so those ones we're checking, you know, every couple of hours throughout the night to make sure that, you know, the platypusan in there for too long.
- [26:42]
A
So, yes, two types of nets, and the second one, a fyke net, is used in shallow waters. It's kind of like a halfway submerged hallway with these different chambers. Like walking through airlocks on Star Trek. And then if you get one, then do they get kind of like a valium situation and then you're weighing them and checking, you know, taking a DNA sample and all of that?
- [27:07]
B
Yeah.
- [27:07]
A
What happens when you fish them out? Do they get a treatment?
- [27:10]
B
Yeah, I wish. I wish I could give them a treat. So like I said, once we catch, they go straight into a pillowcase. And then for us, it's really kind of we're trying to reduce the stress to this animal. Like, these are wild animals. We don't want to cause unnecessary stress to them. So once they're in the pillowcase, if it's cold, we'll put a little towel around them. We'll put them in the car. So often we have like a car full of platypus situation, but they're really like, they're quite comfortable there. I think maybe it like resembles their burrow a bit. You know, it's dark, quiet, they feel secure. So normally they're just going to be resting in the pillowcase, no problem. Our protocols, again, this is different to some other research groups, but we actually do like an infield anesthesia for platypus. So while they're still in their pillowcase, they'll go into an induction chamber. We use like an isofluorine gas, which if you, you take your dog or your cat to a vet, that's kind of the standard protocol, the standard gas that they'll be using. And essentially the platypus, within a few minutes, it's just breathing in this gas, it'll go to sleep. And then that allows us to then have a really close look and take those samples for health and genetics and measurements and anything that we want to look at.
- [28:22]
A
Do you guys fight over whose car the platypuses go in or are you like, do they smell like. What do they smell like?
- [28:29]
B
They smell bad.
- [28:30]
A
Okay, okay.
- [28:31]
B
They smell bad. Like the platypus themselves are fine, but often, you know, they're pooing in these bags and they're being Held for a while and they're feces is like some of the worst stuff I've ever smelled. So generally, if someone else wants them in the car, I'm like, yeah, you can take them, put them in yours and they can do it. The consequences on the drive home, it's.
- [28:52]
A
Because it's poop from a cloaca, but it's also made of insect paste. Right?
- [28:57]
B
Yeah. They're sifting through all the mud on the bottom of the river. They're probably, yeah, it's not a pleasant experience and it always, like, it gets on you and it's one of those smells that, you know, you can't really wash out too easily. So I'm like smelling a platypus every time I'm in the field.
- [29:14]
A
We wanted you to have as rich an experience as possible. And I looked more into the information on the smell. One conservation site reported that fresh platypus poo looks like black mousse or soft serve ice cream, but is tacky, like hot tar. It also smells a lot. It added some other adjectives that I found for you to savor. Strong, unctuous, musky, pungent and bad. Well, are there a lot of you on these night expeditions or is it like a X Files, Mulder and Scully pair up? Or is it like there's 50 people? Because everyone's like, this is the dopest job in wildlife conservation.
- [29:57]
B
Yeah, this is kind of a balancing act that we play. When we first started, it was kind of us and a few volunteers, like, very low key. And I guess now that it started to build traction in the media, people are getting excited about this research. We get a bit bombarded sometimes with requests for people to join. You know, people want to see a platypus, which is fantastic, but also we want to kind of maintain numbers to a level that, you know, we're not going to place any extra stress on these animals because you can imagine if you're a platypus, it's already a stressful situation going through, being trapped, being prodded, and then being put back in the water. So I guess the smaller the numbers, the better. Just in terms of noise and light and, you know, anything that might impact the animals, you don't want to put.
- [30:42]
A
Them on like a red carpet situation where they're like, over here, over here. Can I get a. You know, everyone's gramming them. Well, if you're out there all night, you're drinking coffee, it's a long night. Who, where are you peeing? Where are People like, what's that like?
- [30:59]
B
Yeah, in the bush. I'm an expert at it now. Yeah, yeah, no stress my end anymore. Like, that's all part of it for me. But I feel like, you know, when volunteers come out, they're always a bit like, oh, like, where's the bathrooms? You know, so I'm very. When I. When I'm putting out these calls for people to join, I'm very explicit now about, like, we're out in. We're out in the woods. Like, you know, there's no comforts here.
- [31:25]
A
You better be comfortable with discomfort a little bit.
- [31:27]
B
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
- [31:29]
A
Did you grow up camping a lot? Like, is this something that you didn't even have to worry about? Or were you like, okay, there's a big learning curve in terms of outdoorsy ness.
- [31:38]
B
Big learning curve. Okay. I. Yeah, like, when I was younger, I loved animals and I loved the outdoors. But, like, as a family, yeah, we weren't that outdoorsy family. You know, we went camping maybe a handful of times. And so when I, like, I started my PhD research, it was. Was very much like in the deep end, you know, camping, boats, water waders, making a fire, driving a full drive. Like, all that stuff was very foreign to me in the beginning. So the learning curve was, I would say, very steep. But, yeah, I really found my feet with it, I think. And, you know, like, I love it now. I love being outdoors, being in nature. So it's worked out pretty good, I'd say.
- [32:17]
A
Do you ever take friends, like close friends or family out, out with you?
- [32:22]
B
Yeah, I try to. Like, when I first started this research, it was very much, oh, look at, like, cute animals. I love this. I still feel that way about platypus, but I think some of the special parts now is actually getting to share that experience and share this, like, incredible animal with other people. So, yeah, really any opportunity I get to take friends, family, anyone out in the field, you know, it's like a real privilege to be able to share that experience.
- [32:47]
A
When you started with platypuses, were you on a completely different wildlife track? And then someone's like, hey, I need another researcher for this. Or were you sending emails to platypus experts being like, put me in, put me in, put me in.
- [32:59]
B
No, I wasn't. I was looking for, like, an honours master's project when I was still an undergrad, and one of the professors kind of said that they had this platypus project coming up. And so I went and saw him and he said, like, it's too soon. It's still a few years off. Like, nothing's kind of in motion yet. And so I kind of laid that dream to rest. And then a few years later, I saw an Advertisement For a PhD position at which stage I had like, no interest in going back to university to study. So I kind of, again, I dismissed it. But then there was, yeah, it was nagging me in the background, I guess. So I thought, I'll just apply and see what happens. And then I got it. Been platypusing ever since.
- [33:40]
A
Oh, what a job. Do you get to touch them with your own hands? Do they have soft fur? Do they have soft bellies? Yes, they do.
- [33:50]
B
Yes. So, yeah, while they're like an ethatize, you know, you, you get like a really up close look. They're so soft, especially their bellies. Like, yeah, really soft and I guess so platypuses. They were actually extensively hunted in the early 1900s. And that was because their fur is so soft, like, and it's waterproof. So they would make coats, they would make rugs, like hats, all this stuff out of particles. And, you know, when you're touching them, you realize, you know, yeah, why, like, very soft, very soft.
- [34:20]
A
So if you listen to our Lutronology episode in which we talk smack on otters, you will know that the density of their fur is what keeps air trapped close to the skin and maintains their body temperature even when they're clocking long hours in the sea. Same thing for a platypus. So their fur is nearly as dense as otter's. It's soft, apparently. It's almost velvety when it's dry. And their feet, whoa. Their feet are webbed ones with these long claws. The best analog visually I can think of is like a leather flamenco skirt with knives along the hem. And even the tail, it's not like a beaver tail. It's not leathery. I looked at a picture and I was like, wait, they got, they got a big hairy butt over here too.
- [35:05]
B
The tail is actually different to the hair on the body. The underside is like hairless, but then the top side is kind of bristly. I can always describe it to people. It's like, I don't know, in America, like those kind of shitty brown doormats that everyone has on their front porch, you know, that's a little bit dated, needs replacing. That's kind of what I always think of when I touch their tail. Like super bristly and hard compared to the rest of their soft.
- [35:33]
A
Oh, my gosh, okay. So many questions. Can I ask you listener questions?
- [35:37]
B
Yeah, for sure. Yep.
- [35:38]
A
Oh my gosh, we have so many. Let's get to the milk of the things. And we will lap up those answers in a moment. But first, let's take a quick break and donate to a cause of the ologist's choosing. And this week, Dr. Haack directed it toward the Platypus Conservation Initiative, which works to reestablish these amazing and irreplaceable animals in the wild, reducing their risk of extinction before it's too late. And a donation to them helps reintroduce more platypuses along Australian east coast. It supports vital research and outreach programs. Again, that is the Platypus Conservation Initiative and we will link them in the show notes. So thank you to sponsors of the show who make that possible. This is a question I love. If humanity built something smarter than itself, would it listen? I can't tell you how many holiday get togethers I've been to where we're talking about AI. Every single gathering I've had lately, we've talked about AI. And some of the world, world's biggest companies are racing to create it. Not chatbots, but systems, writing code, making discoveries, even improving themselves. It could solve climate change or give everyone access to food and the best doctors and teachers, or it could literally end humanity. And there's a great eight part miniseries podcast so good. It's called the Last Invention. It's hosted by a friend of mine, journalist Greg Gregory Warner, and it gives context and history to help make it all make sense. And it features some really brilliant people coming to really different conclusions. Very fascinating, very well done because trust me, no matter who you're with, you're going to be talking a lot about AI. And this is a really good series to kind of fill your brain with the history, what's going on, who thinks what's, what could happen. So listen to the Last invention wherever you get your your podcasts. Okay? 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So get last minute hosting essentials, gifts for all your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style every home so the last few weeks I have been essentially living out of a suitcase and hello to everyone that I saw at the first Ologies Live Show. But I have brought along AG1 with me on the road. Because it combines multivitamins, prebiotics, probiotics, antioxidants, superfoods. It's one of the easiest things you can do to support your bod. Maybe you're heading into the holidays, maybe you're going to be traveling. Maybe your diet is not balanced. Also, those pro and prebiotics help support your gut health and digestion. I have EG1 in a scoop and a shaker when I'm home, but on the road I keep it in these little convenient packs in my backpack. I also like that they have the original flavor, the citrus, the berry, the tropical. I like the berry myself. And right now AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drink ag1.com ologies you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. So that's ag1.comologies for $126 if you free gifts for new subscribers Listen, I get your holiday drill. You tell yourself you're going to get the most thoughtful gift ever. You panic at the last minute, you give someone a gift card. This year, skip the panic. Give the most thoughtful gift ever and get an aura frame. You have unlimited free photo and video uploads. You just download this aura app, connect to Wi Fi. It's the easiest app ever. You just start adding pictures in a few seconds. Also, if you're getting aura frames as a gift, they can be personalized with this custom message that appears when it's first turned on. I also give Aura frames as gifts all the time. I love them. Recently I gave some to my sisters in law and they use it exclusively for photos of their cat and their cat stares at the frame of pictures of himself. It's the cutest thing I've ever seen. So for a limited time save on the perfect gift by visiting Oraframes.com get $35 off of Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Ologies at checkout. So that's a U R A frames.com promo code Ologies this deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning Ologies at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Ologies is sponsored by Strawberry Me. So every New Year's Eve I like to sit down and write what I want for the year ahead. And then I put it in a jar with my favorite rocks. Don't worry about the jar or the rocks. It's so helpful to write down what you want for career growth, but sometimes the next step is difficult. Inertia is real, but nothing really changes unless you change it. And Strawberry Me career coaching can help you get out of that slump or help you start on a new path. They match you with a certified career coach. It's a real human. It's not an AI with questionable motives. And your career career coach can help you strategize. They listen to what you want. They help you create a plan. And then this is so important. They hold you accountable so you don't just think about the thing, but you do the thing. And I've used Strawberry Me and they've helped me break things down into smaller steps and I see that I can stretch myself a little creatively. I can do a live show maybe here or there, and having someone who understands performance anxiety but still encourages me to keep going and tackle things has been really helpful.
- [41:40]
B
Helpful.
- [41:40]
A
So if you're waiting for the right moment to level up, this is it. Go to Strawberry Me ologies and get 50% off your first coaching session. So that's Strawberry Me Ologies. Okay, let's get into your questions, which you submitted via patreon.com Ologies you too can join for a dollar a month or you can pop up to an upper tier. If you would like to leave an audio question such as this one Hi, I'm Roni. I'm from la. I heard in a previous episode, I.
- [42:10]
B
Think it was Mammalogy about how the.
- [42:13]
A
Platypus mammary glands work. And I think, I guess my question for that is why? Yeah, so my question is, what the.
- [42:22]
B
Fuck is up with that? Thank you.
- [42:26]
A
So mammary glands.
- [42:28]
B
Okay. Yeah. They're different to mammals in the fact that platypuses don't have any nipples, but they still produce milk for their young. So what's kind of happening is when the female is in that burrow with her young, she's kind of laying on her side and she's just excreting milk through her skin essentially. And then the baby platypuses are kind of there, just lapping it up from the stomach. Very weird system going on there.
- [43:01]
A
I mean, and so many people ask this, but in so many different ways. But let's just talk about the evolution. Katie King, Nicole Zyz, Rosalind Hesby, Aaron Johnson, Aurora Cullen is a party storm. Matt Thompson adds the urmenologist Jennifer Grogan. I mean, so many, I'm gonna have to list them all on a side, or maybe not. I mean, another like 15 people wanna know, in Ben Beardak Fiore's words, why do they seem to have so many unique features? What happened to all their evolutionary cousins? I mean, I know that you must be so sick of people just stuttering, why at you? But honestly, like, they're so weird. Yeah.
- [43:43]
B
So like, so they're monotremes. So essentially that means they're a group of mammals whose ancestors have kind of retained these traits like egg laying, which is a feature lost by what we see in marsupial and placental animal. So it's like an ancient characteristic that's shared with birds and reptiles. It's evolved before the development of live birth. So that kind of explains what some people see as primitive egg laying traits. I tend to refer to it more as not primitive, but it's a survivor of an ancient lineage that's evolved separately from other mammals.
- [44:19]
A
So that egg laying is kind of a bit of a throwback. It's like using a flip phone or a, a digicam when you go out. It's like vintage tech, an oldie, but a goodie.
- [44:29]
B
So, you know, it has all these weird features, the spurs, the eggs, and then a lot of the others are kind of adapted to its environment. Like we see, you know, the webbing that we were talking about, the nails that they used to dig and walk on land. And then this bill is obviously highly adapted to the waterways and the food that it's eating, you know, so it has a real mix of Morphological and evolutionary traits that, you know, come together and make this super unique animal.
- [44:56]
A
I understand that when someone in Europe was shipped a specimen, they thought it was a hoax, but they were looking to see if it was stitched together from a lot of different animals. How long has the colonizing world outside of Australia known of these beautiful creatures?
- [45:15]
B
Yeah, so yeah, the first one that ever went back to Europe, they were like, this can't be real. This is a duck and a beaver stitched together. So they had it under a microscope. They were looking for the stitching, you know, where the bill attached. Yeah. It's not been long. People still don't really believe that this animal exists. I think like sometimes when I put stuff on social media and, you know, it goes viral internationally, it's like people from other parts of the world are still like, wait, these things are real, like this, this animal actually exists. So yeah, I think maybe still a lot of people around the world don't actually know about platypus, to be honest.
- [45:49]
A
I mean, I think that they're possibly the most fascinating animal on the planet. They are a hodgepodge of so many different things and they're so rare. And now I know that they're like kitten sized. I'm in love. Do you know of any aboriginal or indigenous sort of like traditions or myths about it? Doug Foster, Aaron Farley, Char Harrison and AJ Wanted to know, in Char's words, what importance do they hold in like indigenous Australian culture?
- [46:17]
B
Yeah, so the platypus is considered a totem animal for some indigenous aboriginal cultures here in Australia. So you know, it holds deep cultural significance to those groups and it does feature in some creation stories and there's spiritual traditions associated with the animal. There's some evidence in certain areas that perhaps platypus were eaten by indigenous people. But then for other areas, you know, it was considered too sacred to be hunted or Eden. So yeah, it definitely depends on where in Australia. Obviously the platypus is specific to the east coast, so definitely has stronger ties to certain indigenous peoples throughout that area.
- [46:57]
A
Well, you mentioned eating too. A few people wanted to know if anyone eats their eggs or tries their milk and what it might taste like.
- [47:04]
B
Do you have any, any data? My answer is going to be no. So you know, platypus like to see a platypus even in the wild is rare to come across there eggs inside the burrow. It's exceptionally rare. Like you, I'd say it would almost never happen. And if it did, the eggs are tiny, like so I was talking about, you know, the size of the platypus when it's first born. But the eggs are very small, like, you know, nothing like a chicken egg. We're talking more like an oversized spider egg, almost.
- [47:34]
A
Wow. Like a breath mint. Kind of like if you were gonna have a Mentos.
- [47:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so like Mentos size, but round. So, you know, you wouldn't get much nutritional value out of a platypus egg, I don't think. And yeah, in terms of the milk. Yeah, you'd have to find, I guess, a lactating platypus and then be willing to suck all the milk straight from its stomach. So, you know, if you're lucky enough to do that, go for it.
- [48:00]
A
I'm sure there's one person out there who in history who has. Hey, don't worry, y'.
- [48:05]
B
All.
- [48:05]
A
I found an account from the 1832 paper titled on the Mammary Glands of the Ornithorhynchis Paradoxes, in which this anatomist, Sir Richard Owen, recounts very hands on research, writing on compressing the glands in a specimen. There escaped from these orifices minute drops of a yellowish oil which afforded neither the perceptible taste nor smell, except such that was derived from the preserving liquor. I mean, he says he did this, but if you were to bop over to the Sir Owen Wikipedia, you would see that in addition to being a knight, he was also a. As there was a whole heading titled Conflicts with his Peers, which starts off, owen has been described by some as a malicious, dishonest and hateful individual, and a social experimenter with a penchant for sadism, addicted to controversy and driven by arrogance and jealousy. So maybe if you squeeze a dead platypus milk gland, it will just taste like ethanol. Or maybe he lied for clout. Based on how they smell and what they eat and where they swim. I can't imagine it wouldn't taste a little, maybe earthy.
- [49:17]
B
No, I would be steering clear of that personally.
- [49:20]
A
Well, who does eat them? Olivier Kallas, Christine Wenzel, and Benevolent Ish as well. As AJ wanted to know, like AJ asked, what predators do they deal with in the wild? Who's out there eating them?
- [49:33]
B
Yeah, so I guess in Australia we have a big problem with, like, introduced species. So red foxes, feral cats, that's probably the biggest issues for platypus. But when you think about the platypus, like, you know, they're living in rivers, so you might think, oh, this, they're pretty much safe. Like, what's Going to get them. The issue that we have with those feral species is when conditions start to dry out so rivers are drying up, the platypuses, they might start moving over land more to try and find better habitat, more water. And that's when we see they're super vulnerable to those introduced predators. There is also some evidence. So we have in Australia, Murray cod, which is a native fish, they grow to be over 100kg.
- [50:17]
A
Wow.
- [50:17]
B
There's some anecdotal evidence that maybe in areas where they overlap, some juveniles might get taken by these big fish. And then also birds of prey might also be an issue. But the evidence for that of kind stuff is pretty limited at this stage.
- [50:31]
A
How big are the gummy bears when they are flip flopping out of their burrow? Like are they like a tiny candy bar? Like what, how big?
- [50:41]
B
No. So they actually they will stay in the burrow for about three months. And so when they emerge, they're 70 to 80% of the full adult size. So they're coming out of the burrow like ready to go. And often mom is sort of kicking them out too. She's like, you've overstayed. Kicking them out the door and even like, even back sealing it so they can't get back in. It's very much like turn 18, I'm changing the locks. Wow, Mom.
- [51:08]
A
Mom's over it. She's a bitch. But who blames her?
- [51:12]
B
Yeah, she's done her job well. Okay.
- [51:15]
A
A bunch of people from Patreon asked this question. A bunch of listeners did. And I did not even know. Like I had no idea. Linus Rain, Tina Benevolent, Ish. Addie Capello, Obola, Angela Schnep asked, why do they have venom? What is after these weird, fascinating creatures? And then they asked if friend shaped, why dangerous?
- [51:38]
B
I will say I do get that comment on social media a lot, which I love. But yeah, the venom. So male platypuses, they have this venomous spur on both their hind. Well it's on their ankles essentially. And it has a venom that is said to be the most excruciating pain known to man. Like no. Yeah, like there was a record of someone, I think it was the Korean War, Vietnam War and he had like full body shrapnel wounds. And later in life he actually got spurred by a platypus and he said that the spurring from the platypus was, was worse than any war injury he sustained. So yeah, like there's no anti venom. Morphine won't help. Like you're gonna pass out from the pain and then you could be in pain for months like, and some people report even years of this ongoing pain. So the venom is like really serious. Why they have it is it's really, we think a male, male combat thing. So the venom is like, it doesn't impact platypuses as much as it impacts humans or you know, that would probably be detrimental to their longevity. But we see the, during the breeding season the venom production really spikes for males. And you see them like, you know, they're aggressive, you see them fighting in the water, you know they've got scars on their tails from when they're kind of engaging in this combat.
- [52:59]
A
When it comes to combat, the males are well equipped for a knife fight.
- [53:03]
B
And that's because they're, you know, they're fighting for resources, they're fighting for females, they're fighting for habitat. And the reason why we think that this is to do with breeding and not like an anti predator defense is because we don't see these spurs in the females. So females are born with a vestigial spur which is lost.
- [53:23]
A
Just to recap again where we're at, anatomically rubbery bill, tiny as a kitten, smell terrible, bristly tail, electric face, armpit nipples, venomous needle, sharp ankle stingers. And females have spurn ovens that do nothing. Maybe just for style. It's so interesting that human males have nipples. Female platypuses have no nipples, but they do have vestigial spikes. It's all topsy turvy.
- [53:56]
B
It is, yeah.
- [53:57]
A
Who needs what and who's using it? But Andy Pepper wanted to know how serious is the venom? I'm guessing that you have not been envenomated because you would probably have told me.
- [54:08]
B
Yes. So yeah, when we're in the field we're steering clear of that. Like I said, it can be months of pain, it can cause muscle atrophy. Normally it's people get spurred in the wrist or the hand, but your ability to use your hand could be really compromised. So yeah, when we're in the field where super careful with how we handle the animals, we're assuming that any platypus we catch is a male until we prove 100 that it isn't. But irrespective when we're handling them, we're holding them by the tail with our hand kind of on like the backside. So you know, it's out of reach of the spur and it's like really the only safe way to handle them and make sure that you don't come into contact with those spurs.
- [54:52]
A
Do you know anyone, any other colleagues who have accidentally been poked?
- [54:57]
B
Not my direct colleagues, but I know some people that work at Taronga Zoo in Sydney. I've heard their stories of being spurred. One lady was spurred there, I think she said it was more painful than delivering her twins. And there's, there are records of people, you know, who the issue that the public has is they'll see normally it's an injured platypus that's on land and they'll kind of go up and they'll try to help the animal without realizing about these spurs because, you know, a lot of people don't know about platypus, let alone about their venom. So they're trying to help the animal and they, they get stung and they, they soon realize the pain associated with it.
- [55:36]
A
And if you wanted to see one that wasn't injured and maybe even more defensive, but if someone wanted to see one in the wild, like that's their dream, like that's their bucket list. The only thing on their bucket list. So that was Kim C. As well as Lisa Gorman, Sarah Bone, bush witch and Mallory Avery. Although patron Erin Gunderson wrote that. Why is it that as an albeit determined and well informed tourist, I was able to see three in the wild in a week from a road or tram and I only met one non biologist Aussie that had ever seen a wild one. What's the best way to spot them from a safe distance? Is it possible to just go sit.
- [56:17]
B
By a riverbank all night? Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, it takes, I would say patience is the number one thing to have. You can see them like really any rivers and streams throughout the east coast if you're lucky enough. So dawn and dusk is the best time to see them and you really want to be sitting at areas, you know, where there's a nice slow moving, like a pool in a river, not those kind of fast moving rapids. You really want those calm areas just because it makes it easier for you to sight them. But then within, you know, within their distribution there are some hot spots. So like if you're hell bent on seeing a platypus, I would recommend going to Tasmania. The river systems are slightly smaller throughout a lot of their range there. The population size appears to be really good there. So a lot of people have success with sightings in Tasmania.
- [57:09]
A
Oh, okay, good to know. We do have an episode about Tasmanian.
- [57:13]
B
Devils and so yeah, cool.
- [57:15]
A
Tick two boxes off. I've never been to Australia or New Zealand. I want to go so bad. There's so many critters to see. Emily Sanders wants to know. They're from Olympia, Washington, and they were.
- [57:27]
B
Wondering how we feel about the platypus representation in Perry the Platypus character. More specifically, are they very social? Are they enigmatic? Do people have a hard time finding platypuses? Yeah. What are their personalities like? That's my question.
- [57:45]
A
Are you aware of this?
- [57:46]
B
I am, I am. Okay. I've only really been made aware of it though, again, through social media. So a lot of, like, the content we post, again, if it goes viral, I get all these people commenting like, this isn't Perry. Like, where's his fedora? Why is he not green? Like, what's he doing? Secret agent kind of stuff.
- [58:05]
A
So Perry the Platypus is a character on the animated show Phineas and Ferb and is assumed to be a very simple minded family pet. But Perry leads this double identity of espionage. Considering how odd and rare and not domesticatable they are, the secret life does kind of track for them. But I guess the storyboard artists weren't inspired by Riverbank Mud Brown, so they took some liberties.
- [58:31]
B
More than just mad skill.
- [58:33]
A
He's got a beaver, a tail and a bill, and the women swoon whatever.
- [58:38]
B
They hear him say. So, yeah, I'm very much aware of Perry now. Even like the university that I work for, some of their social media content, you know, they've kind of been capitalizing on that and, you know, adding a little fedora and adding the background music to try and get people excited. But yeah, people are. I think they have this perception, some people that, you know, that that's what a platypus is. Like this teal secret agent hat wearing weird thing. But, you know, it's highly anatomically incorrect. Really?
- [59:10]
A
Sure, Perry is aquamarine and walks on hind legs, but still, a tiny hat would be like the most normal thing about a platypus. But what kind of charisma do they have? AJ And Allie Holcomb needed to know. They're not very social, from what I understand from what you've told me. But are they enigmatic? Like, do they have of different personalities? Like, are some feistier and some just like, fine, like, give me the gas and take my blood?
- [59:36]
B
Yeah, they definitely have personalities. Like, and that's evident even if you're like, if you're not researching platypus and if you're just trying to spot a platypus in the wild, like, you can already tell that they have these real different Personalities, like, some are quite inquisitive. If you're sitting on the bank of a river, they'll notice you there. And they might, like, be interested. They might kind of pop up and down, they might be quite playful. Whereas others, you know, they have those more shy tendencies. So they might notice you and they might dive and they might immediately swim away, like they want nothing to do with you. So there's definitely a difference. And when we're trapping, for sure, like, some we catch, like, you know, even within females who are not typically the most aggressive sex, like, you will notice that some are kind of trying to bite you even though they don't have teeth. They're kind of trying to, I guess, bite you with their bill. Whereas some are much more placid. So there is real variation among individuals in terms of personality.
- [60:32]
A
Oh, okay. Magda Kasalka asked, would a platypus be my friend and would they rather do a puzzle and drink tea together or, like, snort coke in a club bathroom? And the answer is, it really depends.
- [60:43]
B
On the platypus then, right? I think so, yeah. I think you could get a mix of both.
- [60:49]
A
Is that an invitation? Also, Lena Schuster wanted to know, do they do much? Nathan asked. They seem like they're kind of clumsy and generally incapable is what Nathan Curry says, I'm going to think. Nathan Curry, you try using electromagnetic sensors on your face to find a bug in a mud puddle and just tell me how that goes. But in general, like, are they sleeping a lot or are they pretty? Like hustle.
- [61:15]
B
Yeah. Hustling, like. Yeah, they're doing a lot. So you imagine, like I said, there are between one and three kilos, but they're eating these tiny, like, water bugs, you know, like, insignificant in terms of their body weight. So to get the amount of food that they need to survive, they're sometimes they're foraging up to 16 hours a day. So they're swimming, they're out there, you know, and they're working against different flow conditions, different temperatures. How many water bugs are in the river? Like, they can travel up to 15km in a day if they feel like it. So they're very capable and they're certainly active. They're also, you know, navigating things kind of outside of that. Like, you know, in a river system, it's not just water, like, we're navigating sometimes waterfalls, you know, rocky areas. Sometimes we need to go over land. So, yeah, they're busy. Oh.
- [62:04]
A
I mean, let's be honest, between you and me, are they the best Animal. I know that we don't.
- [62:08]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [62:09]
A
That's okay.
- [62:09]
B
I mean, I might be biased, but. Yes.
- [62:12]
A
No, I think that they are.
- [62:13]
B
You know, they have all these incredible features. Like. Yeah, I think they're amazing. And like I said before, you know, it's a privilege to be able to work with them.
- [62:21]
A
I wouldn't have even asked this, but so many listeners asked. Plansi Lorraine, Katie Bell, colby Evans, Kyla McDonald Mirmanda. For real, so many of you craved this information. Michael Timbrook, Empress of Smallwood, Lisa Varys Kim Jen Squirrel Alvarez, Molly Mia Arklay, Lauren Hurlburn, Bridget Wall Lexifer Denise Sanders, Jenny Yu, Haley K. And Planet Silo Reign asked they both glow blue green under UV light for why do they do that? What? I didn't even know that.
- [62:53]
B
This only came out within the last two years. Someone kind of used these museum specimens to shine a UV light out and found that they glow like a bluey, kind of purpley tinge, depending on where you're pointing your light. And we don't, like. I don't really know the reason for that, to be honest, because we do see that in a lot of. Of native Australian mammals, like it's in our marsupials. Whether that's some way that these animals are communicating with each other, whether it's something to do with predators, whether it's because they're nocturnal. Like, I don't really know the mechanism behind that, but I will admit we have. After that paper came out, we did purchase a UV light and we do tend to shine at its inflatables and see if we can see the pretty colors.
- [63:36]
A
I mean, I remember. And that came out about flying squirrels recently too, right. By accident. Someone just shined and then everyone's like, we gotta go see what's in. In the collections. Right?
- [63:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [63:46]
A
Going back to Perry for a second, Special K wanted to know, do they really sound like. And what do. What sounds do they make?
- [63:57]
B
They don't make a lot of noises. They do do like a bit of grunting, you know, if they're unimpressed with the situation, if they're waking up from the anesthesia, they're a bit like, like, what's happening to me? We do get some that do like a bit of. Of squeaking when they're waking up. So like really cute, like squeaking sounds or even like a bit of like a snoring sound when they're waking up from the anesthesia. But that's kind of it, you know, they don't rely much on Vocalization, so we don't hear too much for them.
- [64:26]
A
Well, I mean, they're so cute and people want to take their fur. And I understand that they're not doing great. But you've done some recent releases in rural national parks.
- [64:40]
B
Yeah, correct. Yeah.
- [64:41]
A
And so a lot of people wanted to know just how their conservation is doing, how their populations are doing, what they're affected by. I know so much of your research looks at that, so let's have it.
- [64:53]
B
Yeah. So again, this is like where all our research kind of leads is we want to better understand their conservation status. So how many are in the wild has that decline? You know, what's their range? Is that changing? So that's kind of why we're out there at night. We're tagging these animals, we're trying to estimate numbers. But as you can imagine, it's very difficult to even see a platypus. So to study a platypus, you know, it's high effort to try and catch them, and you need to do that repeatedly at a single site to get an understanding of how many platypuses are just at that one site. And even then that can be inaccurate because obviously these animals, you know, they're not in a closed system. They live in rivers, so they can move upstream, they can move downstream. So. So it's very hard to estimate numbers in one river, let alone their entire range, which is, as I said, is, you know, northern Queensland down to Tasmania. So we know for some localized areas that there are declines happening and we know, like, the threatening processes. So if we think about in Australia, we have a lot of big dams which overlap the distribution of the platypus. So we have issues with water regulation. You know, platypuses, they're dependent on both the river and also the health of the riparian vegetation. So the vegetation alongside rivers, where we have a lot of clearing, we have a lot of sedimentation, urbanization, pollution, predators. And the big one is climate change, really here in Australia. So they've been around for millions of years, they're well adapted to our environment. They know floods, they know fires, they know droughts. But the problem that we're seeing is the increased frequency and intensity of these events and that they're kind of occurring back to back. So, you know, in the last 10 years, we've had some of the worst flooding on records, we've had the worst bushfires on records, and we've had some of the worst droughts. So for an animal that depends on waterways, that is a huge problem. And so we suspect that populations are declining. They're not currently listed as a threatened species, which we're trying to get them listed at, because we want them to have the maximum amount of protection. We don't want to end up in a situation where they become too far gone and they're listed as a threatened species. And, you know, by the time we try to enact any conservation management, you know, they're kind of already beyond that point of no return. So we're really trying to implement some conservation strategies before it's too late.
- [67:21]
A
Well, Meg Shooter asked, how close are we to getting them on the IUCN Red List? And asked if the recent findings, findings of drugs and PFAS and microplastics in the platypus population, would that help get them on the list? And I understand that they absorb a lot of the medications that are in the waterways as well, right?
- [67:39]
B
Yeah. So there's a lot of research coming out about that. Unfortunately, that stuff doesn't feed directly into a nomination under any of the categories for IECN or even our Commonwealth legislation here in Australia. So that stuff is really reliant on providing evidence of declines in numbers, declines in range. Is it a small population size or can you provide modeling that suggests that this animal is going to go extinct within X amount of years? So we put together a submission in 2021 to have it listed as a threatened species under both the IUCN criteria and our Commonwealth legislation. But as I said, like, it's hard to get that data. It's hard to get the data across the entire range. So that nomination was knocked back on the basis of data deficiency with, I guess they said that there is obvious threats impacting the population but the data is not strong enough to have it listed at this stage. So, yeah, we're still fighting for it. We're collecting as much data as we can and we'll keep pushing until it gets the protection that it deserves.
- [68:44]
A
Aaron White said, please let them be okay. And Lunar Crumpet said, as an Australian who has seen platypuses in captivity and once a few tiny splashes and a dark shape in a creek, I want to know, how can we help?
- [68:59]
B
Yeah, so I guess for Australians there's a few things. So when we're doing these nominations or when we're trying to quantify changes in number and distribution, we can't just rely on our own capture data. You know, I said it's incredibly time consuming, it's expensive, they're widespread. So the number one thing people can do is report their Sightings.
- [69:19]
A
If you Google platypus watch, it'll take you to a form you can fill out to give the whens and the where's and the majesty and the details of your platypus sighting.
- [69:28]
B
We can kind of use that data to make an attempt to quantify those changes. So if you see a platypus, upload your sightings. It's super helpful for us. It gives us really a much better understanding of, of where they occur and in what numbers. I would also recommend if you can, like, if you live near any rivers, pick up any rubbish. If you see, like, circular items. So we're talking like hair ties, rubber bands, anything circular that might entangle a platypus, kind of make sure you cut them up before they go into the bin and then remove any, like, fishing lines. So if you, if you fish, if you utilize rivers for anything like that, but make sure you take those fishing line with you. Because we do see, unfortunately, a lot of platypuses, they get entangled and they drown. Bummer. And then I think, like joining community groups that are getting involved with, like, replanting so, you know, re vegetation. I said platypus, they really need those nice banks to build their burrows. So we really want to try and, you know, plant more trees, plant more vegetation that's going to hold that soil together. That's going to help them, you know, create their burrows and also encourage all those lovely water bugs back into the system that they need to eat.
- [70:39]
A
And when you say water bugs, do you mean a lot of different bugs that live in the water or do you mean specifically like. Like, because we have these things called water bugs here and like toe biters. But I think you must mean, like a lot of different kinds.
- [70:50]
B
Yeah. So macroinvertebrate water bugs, they'll pretty much eat, like, whatever's around. To be honest, they're kind of like a generalist. They've got a few species that they're kind of really keen on. But, yeah, generally whatever's available. Like, you know, they can't really distinguish between different species where they're bill. So they're kind of just snapping up whatever's around.
- [71:11]
A
Just like little Pac Man.
- [71:14]
B
Yeah, pretty much.
- [71:15]
A
Little sweeties. And I mean, you have arguably one of the coolest jobs on the planet. If I could be you researching a platypus or like, in space, like, hands down, pick your life. Like, how amazing is other than the car upholstery issue? 10 out of 10.
- [71:35]
B
Yeah. It's an amazing animal to Work on. So, yeah, very lucky.
- [71:39]
A
But I always ask at the end, something's gotta suck. What sucks? What, what is, is there anything, is it the poo?
- [71:48]
B
That's a lot, you know, like that. I think, you know, there's this conception that oh, cute, platypus is like best job in the world. Which don't get me wrong, it is, but, but you know, it's also hard work. Like we're out there in the night, we're wet, we're freezing, you know, it's long hours. We work all through the night and all through the day sometimes. And then there is also. It's not all field work, you know, we have to come back, we have to sit at the desk and write the grants to get the money to do the research, you know, and then write our publications. So there's both sides of it. Like I said, it's the best job in the world. But I think everyone that has a job thinks that there's parts that they could change. But to be honest, all that stuff for me kind of makes it more worthwhile. Like we have this saying, you know, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the reward. So yeah, we really enjoy what we do.
- [72:36]
A
What is the biggest reward? What do you love the most about them or about the job?
- [72:41]
B
I love getting people excited about platypus and I think that has the real roll on effect to caring about like our natural environments here. Like, like it's a real flagship species. You know, like people might not know that they have platypus in their local creek or you know, in their local community. And once you kind of educate them about that and they, they learn, you know, like all the things that are impacting this amazing animal. I feel like it really inspires them to make kind of on ground change to, you know, if, if they're just changing one thing. If they just, they stop dumping their rubbish or they plant a few trees. Like I feel like the platypus, platypus, it really kind of is a catalyst for these on ground conservation actions and I really love to see that unfold. You know, I love that it inspires people to get involved in science and conservation. Oh for sure.
- [73:28]
A
I mean, can't imagine seeing a flip flopping platypus in the creek in my back and lose my shit and lose my mind. Well, this has been thrilling. I didn't know I could love them more. Please tell it that we're rooting for them and that they don't have to wear the fedora.
- [73:47]
B
They could take it off will do. I'll name my next one Ali so I can only beg. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat buddies.
- [73:58]
A
So ask ornitho riccanological people unorthodox questions because they can illuminate your curiosities like a black light. Thank you so much Dr. Tenille Haack, for not only being on Ologies, but for everything you do to keep these these floppy, sloppy little puzzles alive and happy. For more on Dr. Haack and the Platypus Conservation Initiative, you can see the links in the show notes. There are also links to our spinoff classroom safe versions of Ologies called Smologies S M O L O G I E S. Wherever you get podcasts, Merch is@ologiesmerch.com you can join patreon.com ologies and perhaps hear your name or your voice on the show. And thank you also for all the lovely reviews. We are at ologies on bluesky and Instagram. I'm Alie Ward at both Erin Talbert Admins Theologies Podcast Facebook group Avileen Malik makes our profess transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer does the website. Noelle Dilworth does our diurnal and nocturnal calendars as scheduling producer. Den leader of our stinky borough is managing director Susan Hale and stitching the incongruous pieces together each week are Jake Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn did the theme music. If you stick around to the very end, you know, I may tell you a secret this week. It's simple. It's hopefully life altering. But if you are a person who struggles with anxiety, as is me, your father, Ward. Dad, one way to cut that anxiety by like 50% is to quit coffee, maybe, or whatever source of caffeine is electrocuting your system. Go half caf, don't have a second cup. You're like, dad, what's the data? Well start with the 2024 frontiers in psychology paper Caffeine Intake and Anxiety, A meta analysis which looked at hundreds of people in eight different studies and churned out the very like. Yeah. Conclusion saying that results confirm that caffeine intake is associated with an elevated risk of anxiety in healthy individuals without psychiatric disorders, especially when the intake dose is greater than 400 milligrams. And I know that you know this, it's very like very broad knowledge, but it's one of those things that we're like, eh, the least you can do for yourself is take a scientific approach. Give yourself the gift of less caffeine and reading a book. I know that you know this, but take this as a sign to give it a try. You deserve it. We all need it. So do I. With that.
- [76:14]
B
Bye bye.
- [76:14]
A
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