← Ologies with Alie Ward
Ologies with Alie Ward
Salugenology (WHY HUMANS REQUIRE HOBBIES) Part 2 with Julia Hotz
00:53:44
It’s Part 2 of how to fix your life with hobbies! Pretty much. Journalist/author of “The Connection Cure” Julia Hotz explains the science behind forest bathing, how privilege affects accessibility to hobbies and what to do about it, how to figure out what lights you up, how to schedule time for hobbies if you have no time to do hobbies, why I used to call my old job at newspaper Club Karoshi, what if social interaction gives you the willies, what if depression keeps you from doing the things that lift depression, being social without having to spend money or get wasted, why volunteering is such an antidepressant, why rehabs use social prescribing, if protesting is a good hobby, and why you should go take a walk. Also: did I go to the ukulele meeting or chicken out?
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- [00:00]
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- [00:53]
Alie Ward
It'S still the guy at the falafel truck who gives you extra hummus. A.L.I.E. ward and here is part two of one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. Here we are. This is science based advice on how to balance your work with your real life. How to get your little sparkle back even when the world is raining turds. It's hobbies, pastimes, community, and according to this guest, the author of the book the Connection Cure, it's the prescriptive power of movement, nature, art, service and belonging. And I couldn't put that whole thing in the subtitle. And if I just wrote social prescribing, you're like, I don't know what that is. So that's why it's why humans need hobbies. That's very much in a nutshell. Anyway. To hear all the foundations, including the etymology and the history of this field. So many examples and papers. And why this guest doesn't like the title of her own book. You just hop your beautiful butt back to Part one. Okay, start there. Come meet us back here. Part two. So let's get to Part two. But first, thank you patrons for supporting the show for as little as $1 a month and submitting your questions. We couldn't do the show without you. Thanks to everyone walking around in Ologies Merch. We have some summer stuff like hats and even bathing suits you can wear. Also, we have smallogies episodes for free in their own feed wherever you get podcasts. If you're looking for shorter swear free episodes that are suitable for classrooms and people sensitive to swearing. Those Smallogies episodes linked in the show, not Notes tell everyone. Also for free. Thank you for supporting Ologies by leaving reviews. They really matter. I read them all and then I pick one to spotlight as proof. And this week, Liv LW called Ologies your favorite scientist's favorite science podcast, which means the world to me. And they said this is a science podcast that all my fellow grad students listen to. I love the enthusiasm, the humor, the heartfelt moments. And you know, I'm listening to those Spooktober episodes all year long. Thank you for that, Livy lw. It means a lot. Also, look up our Spooktober episodes. They're so good. Okay, part two it's all about social prescribing and so many occupational therapists, by the way, listened to part one and said that they were like screaming and just bellowing with joy. So here's a shout out to all the occupational therapists who know firsthand that this stuff works. So sit tight, knit a scarf. Let's hear about forest bathing, Taking life lessons from rehab. How privilege affects accessibility to hobbies and what to do about that. Why I used to call all night writing sess at the Newspaper club Karoshi how to forest bathe most effectively as researched by science how capitalism literally kills us how to figure out what lights you up. How to schedule time for hobbies if you have no time for hobbies, free stuff you can get to make you happier. What if social interaction gives you the willies? What if depression keeps you from doing the things that lift depression? How do you hang out in a culture that's so substance based? Is there any data to support chilling out? Where to volunteer to check off a lot of life improving boxes if protesting is a good hobby and once again, why a fuck you walk is an act of defiance with author, journalist, deep diver and absolutely lovely and altruistic person and salutinologist Julia Jules Hotz in this Part two okay, so we ended part one right before we got to the Patreon questions and she was down to clown a bit longer. So let's hear from patrons of the show who submitted their questions in advance. You can do that via patreon.com Ologies you can join for as little as a dollar a month and we also have options to leave voice questions so you can be like hey, that's me.
- [04:40]
Julia Hotz
Such as someone who calls themselves so many questions. First time question asker says hi Allie and Julia.
- [04:48]
Patreon Question Asker
What are the hallmarks of good activities for social prescriptions I'm absolutely not going.
- [04:53]
Alie Ward
To be replacing the practitioners who should.
- [04:55]
Julia Hotz
Do actual prescribing for my family and friends, but have had some good intention suggestions backfire or just fall short. What was I missing in my suggestions that didn't actually reach the goal we had? Let's say someone has tried social subscribing and it didn't quite do it for them. Do you feel like it has to hit a couple of those buttons to maybe really gel? Or how do you find the right social prescribing that's gonna work for you?
- [05:22]
Patreon Question Asker
Absolutely. So I think there's a couple of things there. Love these questions, so many questions. And I also think that were they suggestions or were they prescriptions? It's one thing to say, hey, you should volunteer more, you should exercise more. It's another to, hey, there's one spot left in this, you know, ukulele class that meets on Wednesday nights. And I know that's when you have an early day. So it works for your schedule. I'm going to prescribe you a spot and I'm going to check in and I'm going to follow up. And I vetted it. Right. And so what I should say also, and this is again where the US could learn a lot. But in the UK and other places that have social prescribing, there's a position called the link worker that's hired by the doctor's office or the therapist's office whose job it is to actually spend a long time with the patients. Instead of 15 minutes, they get 60, get to know what really, really matters to them. So the prescription is going to be much more specific and tailored to what matters to the person. And then the rest of their time is spent vetting the groups in the community.
- [06:28]
Alie Ward
Oh, so there's literally a job when social prescribing is offered of a link worker who figures out what will be good for you and where and when it happens and if it's actually good or reliable. That's usually part of the deal.
- [06:42]
Patreon Question Asker
So it might be for so many questions that they maybe suggested a group. But you know, that group kind of sucked. Or that group, maybe it didn't suck, but maybe it wasn't the right fit for the right person. And I also think, look, I know lots of things matter to people, so I think the more specific you can make the question, making it, you know, help people reflect on things they loved to do as a kid, things they would do if they had more time in their week the last time they experienced awe. What's the thing that makes you light up when you talk about it. What's the thing that you could spend eight hours doing? And there's absolutely no distraction in the world that could pull you from that. The more you can get closer to those kinds of what matters to you questions, and the more you can prescribe, not suggest a specific activity that corresponds to it. I think you'll have more success in.
- [07:35]
Alie Ward
A recent guide published by the Global Social Prescribing alliance in conjunction with the World Health Organization titled Social Prescribing around the World, A world map of global developments in social prescribing across different health system contexts offers case studies for 24 different countries from England to Canada, Portugal, India, Iran, Poland, Japan, usa, South Korea, Italy, bunch more. Dozens of them. And in 2019 we did an episode titled Field trip How to change your life via the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles. And it took me until this aside to realize that's exactly why volunteering at the museum did change my life. I was in an environment that thrilled me. I was being of service teaching random adults or school groups about bugs or coyote pelts. And I got to hang out in the morning meetings with other volunteers from retirees to grad students. And I even got some good walking around the halls and in the nature gardens there. And I'll link that episode in the show notes. But even years after I volunteered there, it continues to change my life every day. This podcast wouldn't exist without that. It was inspired by the museum and I was able to fully return to my most authentic self. It was a huge, huge change in my life. So let me be a case study that this shit really does work. Figure out what lights you up, get yourself there like your life depends on it. It just might now. I was lucky at the time though to be freelance with a flexible schedule so I could accommodate one three hour window a week to go get paid $0. Not everyone has that. And Theo Klein asked about economic privilege when it comes to social prescribing. Where is a park? Says I love this and I wish we didn't have to prescribe things that seem so inherently human. But asked how do you address patients concerns around SC like scarcity of time, childcare, money, et cetera? And those thoughts were also on the minds of Chelsea and her dog Charlie and others.
- [09:36]
Julia Hotz
And what about barriers? Rachel Guthrie asked, how do people overcome financial barriers or lack of leisure time to participate in social prescription? Cheesemonger asked, what if you don't have time eating dog hair for a living? Wants to know how you can follow through, not have it interfere with work. And then also London? Noel asked, as a teacher in Spoonie, I have very limited free time and limited energy.
- [09:58]
Alie Ward
For more on Spoonies and chronic health conditions, you can see our recent two part long Covid episodes or our Disability Pride episode which we will link in the show notes.
- [10:08]
Julia Hotz
David said, how. What about if you're concerned about contagious diseases? So overcoming these various barriers, I know those are different prongs, but yeah, well.
- [10:18]
Patreon Question Asker
Let'S take time because that is the big one, right? And that actually corresponds to a story from the book about this woman named Heather, lives in Vermont, working three jobs, is the primary caretaker for her grandmother, is someone who has always loved being outside, but yet because of the stressors of her life, she's forced to spend most of it inside until she goes to her doctor. The doctor says, you know, we're running this pilot with this group Come Alive Outside. They host these awesome activities for people, you know, dealing like Heather was dealing with stress and all these kind of health issues, you know, can I prescribe you a spa in it? And at first Heather is thinking like, I don't have time for that. But then, you know, when the doctor and when the research frames this as being in nature is actually something that restores your attention and can make you feel like you have more time, that totally changes it. And that was true for Heather, right. It's not like she could magically make her three jobs go away. It's not like she could stop being her grandmother's caregiver. But because those two hours a week that was a doctor prescribed activity, the same way we would be judicious about going to our therapy sessions if we can have that sort of same level of seriousness and dedication paid to our social prescriptions, then I think people would find, like Heather found that not only was there the two hours a week for it, but that it was something she wanted to put more into her schedule. Because again, the feelings of stress and burnout that so many of us are dealing with it, I would say for all of these five kinds of social prescriptions, but especially nature, this can make us feel like we have our time back.
- [12:06]
Alie Ward
And again, those five facets are movement, art, nature, service and belonging.
- [12:14]
Patreon Question Asker
There's actually a really cool study related to this time point. There were these Japanese businessmen in the 1970s and 1980s who were severely, severely overworked. I mean, they were working like 70, 80 hours a week. Reports of heart failure, reports of suicide. Very tragically, all of this went up up, up. As their workload did. So actually in this kind of wild government campaign, as a public health thing, the government said, you know what, we need to do something about this chronic burnout stress. There was a word for it, karoshi. And they said, we are going to prescribe you time in the forest. We're going to invest in this campaign called Shinrin Yoku Forest Bathing, because we believe that you being in this forest environment is going to reverse some of those stress responses. So they invested in this big time. They took these stressed out businessmen in Tokyo. Of course it was men at first, but then the women. And they found that just like a little bit of time in the forest dramatically reduced their blood pressure, dramatically increased their production of natural killer cells which go on to fight cancer. All of these sort of physiological markers of stress went down, down, down, down, down, down. And when you do that, not only are you preventing heart disease, mental health conditions down the line, but you're also giving those businessmen better tools to cope with their feelings of stress and burnout in the present.
- [13:47]
Alie Ward
In her book, Julia details that later studies with different demographics, not just businessmen, showed forest bathers had other health gains like increased serotonin and lowered adrenaline and cortisol, which are stress hormones, as well as lower blood pressure and heart rate. And they reported less anxiety, depression, anger, fatigue and confusion. And for more you can see the 2022 studies effects of forest environment on health promot and disease prevention, which can help us understand the difference between just chilling in the woods versus forest bathing. They're kind of the same, but the latter is a little more immersive. So forest bathing at its best engages all your senses. In the paper details, sight, green color, yellow color and red color. Forest landscape. Hearing forest sounds. Listen to the birds singing and the breeze rustling in the leaves. Touch touching trees. Put your whole body in the forest atmosphere. It says taste involves eating foods and fruits from the forest or tasting the fresh air and smell, which says special good smell fragrance from trees and flowers. And we also touch on the so many reasons to huff a tree in the dendrology episodes with J. Casey Clapp and in The Forest Entomology 1 with Dr. Kristen Wickert. And we also have a bryology episode about moss with the actual Dr. Robin Wall Kimmerer who is wonderful and we'll link those in the show notes. I am at this point very sold on never living my life without forest bathing on the reg. Sign me up.
- [15:19]
Julia Hotz
I'm into it. Forest bathing. I love that. That's a term that is starting to catch on, just kicking it in the forest. It needed its own term. It needed like a verb behind it. And Honey Bear said, what about connecting with other nature beings? For example, I consider the forest to be one of my most supportive communities and feel nourished by spending time with my tree friends. And then Kathleen Sack said that they've taken up wildlife photography and bird watching and that days spent bird watching are really grounding because it involves tuning into more than one sense at a time. You're using sight and sound. But we did have people too, you know, going through the social and community aspect of it. We had a ton of people.
- [16:01]
Alie Ward
Self described, very socially anxious gal, Megan Ratcliffe, Addy Cappello, Sadie Vippond and Olive Wing.
- [16:08]
Julia Hotz
First time question asker's words said, is there any difference in success rates for social prescribing for neurodivergent people versus neurotypical? And they say as someone with autism, socializing can cause extreme stress and mental exhaustion. Is there a right or wrong way to go about this technique as someone who's autistic to make it less stressful? And we had a ton of people. Desert paint frog, Zack, Everett Peregrine Nova, Robin Stumbo, Susan G. Who asked, in Robin's words, do you have any tips for people who have a lot of anxiety around social situations or are introverts? So, yeah, let's say that hanging out with new people especially is like a lesson in sweaty palms and bubble gut.
- [16:45]
Patreon Question Asker
Absolutely.
- [16:46]
Julia Hotz
What do you do?
- [16:48]
Patreon Question Asker
You are absolutely right to feel that way. And I'm so grateful for these questions because let's be honest, you know, social prescribing, not a great name. Especially if your baseline is somebody who struggles with social anxiety. Like that sounds like hell. So what I would say is that I have a story to back this up. In the book, there was a man named Nick who dealt with social anxiety adhd, identified as neurodivergent. If I had told him about there's a thing called social prescribing. Doctors are prescribing activities that promote connection. He would have said, hell no. I'm so out, like as anybody would, right? That gives them, you know, palm sweats and all that stuff. What instead happened with Nick is that he happened to love fishing. Very solitary activity, very sort of peaceful activity. You know, not a lot of small talk going on in the pond. Let me tell you, when you're fishing, like, you have to be really focused on the water. And so Nick, organically, as somebody who loves fishing and would do this by himself, in his spare free time, would go out there, would fish, saw a group doing it, and the leader of that group eventually came up to Nick and said, you know, asked him very specific questions about fishing. Which people with sort of neurodivergence, they tend to love to talk about specific topics that are of interest to them.
- [18:10]
Alie Ward
Wait, is this a fucking play about us?
- [18:13]
Patreon Question Asker
Eventually, Nick ends up joining this group. It's called Tackling Minds. Yeah, I know you'd love that pun.
- [18:19]
Alie Ward
Yeah.
- [18:19]
Patreon Question Asker
Started by somebody who also identified sort of on the neurodivergent spectrum and really made it a place where nobody had to talk to each other. If you wanted to come and just post up with your rod and be silent the whole day, you could totally do that. And, you know, ironically, in an episode about health, I'll say that when I went to visit this social prescription, they're all, like, smoking cigarettes. They're drinking Pepsis out of the bottle. Like, not typically the things we associate with health. But for those people, because of the environment, it didn't encourage inauthentic connection. It just encouraged people who happen to all love fishing to do it together. I think that is what really was effective for Nick and is what I would say to listeners who might feel like this sounds really scary. I would say that there are lots of groups that are tailored to the interests and needs of people with different, you know, connection preferences.
- [19:16]
Julia Hotz
Yeah. The idea of a quiet circle, but.
- [19:18]
Alie Ward
You'Re all doing the same thing.
- [19:20]
Julia Hotz
Also sounds great. As someone who talks for a living, sometimes in social situations, I just want to sit there like a lump.
- [19:28]
Patreon Question Asker
Absolutely.
- [19:29]
Julia Hotz
You know, just because I talk all day, I love talking all day. I love my job, but sometimes I just want to just kick it and not have to think of what I'm going to say.
- [19:36]
Alie Ward
You know what I mean?
- [19:37]
Julia Hotz
So that's cool. That's also where it seems like a music group could be great because you're mostly just making music.
- [19:43]
Patreon Question Asker
Right. You're ukin.
- [19:45]
Julia Hotz
Yeah, you're ukin. And, you know, it's funny because obviously, I'm sure that you get a lot of skepticism or people who we have a lot of questions of, like, but really, because it seems like it can't be that simple. Even though we can probably separate anthropologically, that, yes, we did evolve to have these things give us some sort of chemical reward because they kept us alive. Right.
- [20:10]
Alie Ward
And According to a 2022 article from Harvard titled Power of Social Interactions and the Desire for Connectedness. Desire for connectedness. For connect. For connect. And the desire for connectedness to empower health and wellness. Yes, humans, quote, are wired to connect, and this connection affects our health. It says there is significant evidence that social support and feeling connected can help people maintain a healthy body composition, control blood sugars, improve cancer survival, decrease cardiovascular mortality, decrease depression, depressive symptoms, mitigate ptsd, and improve overall mental health. And it says that the opposite of connection, which is social isolation, has a negative effect on health and can increase depressive symptoms as well as mortality. So prescribing social interactions and encouraging friendships has the potential to have a healing effect on patients. And social connection, they say, should be treated as a vital sign, much like physical activity. Now, part of the chemistry behind this relates to oxytocin release, which is a bonding hormone. And it works in concert with something called gaba, inhibitory neurons to lower anxiety and up serotonin, which affects mood regulation. And it increases dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter involved in the reward system, which creates feelings of pleasure, and it helps executive function. Also, may I use this aside, if I may, if I may, to platform that taking smoke breaks, like 10 minutes once or twice a day to be outside and chat with people is probably very healthy, except for the smoking part. And I propose that we bring them back, but we call them apple gaps, or we call them fruit interludes and nobody smokes. But we can fully normalize going downstairs or stepping outside to eat a small piece of fruit and chat with people. And then when you finish the fruit, you're back inside doing whatever you're doing. I'm currently obsessed with a variety of apple called rocket, which are very small, crunchy ones, and they take like five to seven minutes to eat leisurely. And we're more on how apple varieties are even made, which is fascinating. Trust me. We have a whole pomology episode, if you don't believe me. But yes, apple gaps, fruit interludes, little tiny apples. Hang outside, chat with a stranger or a coworker. Tell your boss to get on my level.
- [22:32]
Julia Hotz
A few people asked about skepticism. Matt Herschel asked, is this hippie dippy or for real? Megan Morgan wanted to know, is social prescription a valid suggestion or is it a fad recommendation? Like, how do scientists address that?
- [22:46]
Patreon Question Asker
Yeah, it's a great question because again, even the name like social prescribing sounds a little hippy, Dippy sounds a little trendy and sounds like hell for introverts especially. I think, again, it comes down to looking at the strength of the evidence around prescribing these kinds of ingredients, around interventions with Nature around interventions with exercise, around interventions with art. The way that longitudinal studies tell us that service and belonging are extraordinarily powerful for our longevity. It's almost like we have to put the pieces together because I do think, you know, it is easy to dismiss this as just another fad. But at the same time, I mean, I would love to see a study that says nature is bad for us. I would love to see a study that says engaging with the art worsens our health. In some ways, it's almost so obvious that it's hard to believe we're not doing it.
- [23:40]
Alie Ward
I thought maybe it was goofy or hippie, but no. Social prescribing is a term used globally with the World Health Organization. It's just new and we haven't heard much about it yet. Well, it's not very new. Anthropologists know that this human behavior predates antibiotics and cardiac bypass surgery, but of course we don't just want one or the other.
- [24:00]
Patreon Question Asker
I think the problem becomes when we start to talk about this stuff as a replacement for other kinds of medicine. And that's absolutely not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that this should be an option on the menu for people who are mildly curious about it. This is not about taking away any other options. But I do think it's going to take us a while until we have that really, really golden, large scale sort of national pilot study data showing that, yeah, like this is legit. You know, right now it's a lot of sort of piecing together the evidence around the many different aspects of this.
- [24:41]
Julia Hotz
And, you know, on this skepticism note, some people wanted to know the dangers. Kelly Shaver asked, how can social prescribing go wrong? What are the dangers? Prince Nocturnal wanted to know, how do we make sure that bipoc, disabled people, trans people, women, et cetera, feel safe in social activities? And how can we cultivate an environment in which the challenges of putting yourself out there as a marginalized person can be discussed? Jade Sullivan said many minority communities have a long standing tradition of caring for one another through mutual aid networks or alternative kinship. How do factors such as race and gender and sexuality and class influence that social connectedness? Is there a danger at all or what consideration should be given to people who are in minority communities?
- [25:24]
Patreon Question Asker
Yeah, hugely, absolutely. And that's why, you know, in the group I talk about, first of all, like the particular health consequences of racism, of exclusion. To be systemically disconnected is horrible for our health. And so we need to take a lot of care when we're prescribing something that aims to reconnect. And that's why one of the groups I talk about this is in Toronto. It's called the black focused social prescribing group group. It's precisely run by, for and with black people, incorporating Afrocentric healing principles, dance classes, cooking classes, play tickets, and it's also covering transportation, food. All of the things that, you know, we might forget in our highly unequal society could prevent somebody from coming. So I think those are the dangers. Is one like not anticipating the very real economic barriers that people have when social prescribing is done well, it does do this. When social prescribing is not done well, it doesn't. It's just, you know, a prescription for a place and you're on your own to get there and oh, it's in the middle of your work day. Too bad. That's when it's bad. I also think sort of safety and group belonging is huge. Like for this woman, Victoria, who gets prescribed a spot in this black focused social prescribing group, getting to know other people in her community who had shared similar experiences to her, who could sort of relate on this unspoken level was hugely important. And so I think, just like considering the socioeconomic barriers is really, really important, when we talk about doing this systemically, it's also important, I think that we do this in partnership with the groups that already have this programming, ideally with a person such as a link worker, a community connector in Singapore, they're called, well, being coaches, somebody whose job it is to A, really get to know the person who's being offered the social prescription and B, to really get to know the community. Like if I prescribe my patient this, are they going to be the only black person or woman there? Anticipating concretely those kinds of things is really, really important. And if we don't, yeah, that's how it could go wrong.
- [27:36]
Julia Hotz
I know we're talking too about it in more of an official setting, but let's say that you don't have the resources to maybe have someone facilitate this for you. What are some things that you suggest? Like even if you just want to fire off a list of some things that people can start to look into on their own if they don't have like a liaison who's finding them a.
- [27:59]
Patreon Question Asker
Class down and dirty, DIY style. Heck yeah. I'm so glad you asked that question because absolutely we don't have to wait for health care. I mean, ideally we should. Healthcare should be doing this and how great would it be? If our insurance companies and our doctors prescribe this as easily as they prescribed everything else, the reality is we're not there yet. So what can we do in the meantime? This was the focus of part three and of my website, SocialPrescribing Co, which is basically a catalog of free or very low cost donation based groups that people can prescribe themselves spots in in the meantime.
- [28:36]
Julia Hotz
Cool.
- [28:36]
Patreon Question Asker
I would say a great place to start is in your local parks department. They have so much unbelievable programming, very often free. Same with our libraries. Our libraries are amazing. These are these master connectors. And gosh, I'm so hopeful for a future where healthcare can actually like create some revenue for the amazing services that they do. In the meantime, prescribe yourself. Where I live in New York, there's something called Culture Pass which also gives you free access to museums and art installations, institutions just by having a New York City library card. And then there's so many non profits around the country that are trying to do, you know, more running groups, more storytelling groups, opportunities to volunteer. Also check out that website for questions you can ask on where to begin. Like even thinking about what is the ideal social prescription for me.
- [29:32]
Alie Ward
So yes, again, her website is socialprescribing co and we're putting so many links to these studies on our website@alieward.com ologies both of which are linked in the show notes. In case you're right now riding a horse with no pen, a few people.
- [29:48]
Julia Hotz
Asked, maybe the social prescription involves critters. Honey Bear, Lisa Gorman, Earl of Grimalkin, Rayna Peregrine and Julia Taylor. Juliet Taylor asked, is horse therapy a thing for real prescribing people to hang out with horses? Honey Bear wants to know, does the prescription need to be with other humans or does connecting with animals, companions or otherwise compare in terms of efficiency? Raina asked about emotional support animals.
- [30:11]
Patreon Question Asker
So yeah, I think animals. And again, this goes back to the research showing about how much our bodies just relax when we're in nature. Animals absolutely need to be and are part of social prescribing. In fact, I know a doctor in Canada who literally prescribes her patients visits to, you know, dog shelters and dog rescue communities and volunteering with dogs. Absolutely. That is so, so real. And even when it's not like a specific prescription for that, when for example, in Australia there's a really big initiative right now to prescribe nature to people who are lonely.
- [30:49]
Alie Ward
And this is orchestrated by some of the researchers behind the 2024 paper Connecting through Nature, a systematic review of the Effectiveness of nature based social prescribing practices to combat loneliness.
- [31:00]
Patreon Question Asker
And part of the like sort of course in this prescription is going on. Sniff walks is literally like walking through an open field and smelling the different trees and critters. Another one, a huge one, is bird watching in Australia. It's also bat watching and part of forest bathing too, as some of your listeners have said and we talked about earlier, is about engaging with all five senses in a natural environment. And so that might include noticing critters you may not have noticed before. So I think they're absolutely a key, key part of what matters to us and of what makes us healthy. Like it's not a coincidence that we all love dogs and you know, the little inner alie war child in us like loved exploring bugs in an open field. There's something very primal and real about that in our physiology.
- [31:54]
Julia Hotz
I mean just they definitely take you out of the sometimes main character syndrome that we might have where we are starring in a tragedy. They take you out of this sort of solipsism that depression can create.
- [32:07]
Alie Ward
Cat people. I see you lizard parents out there. I love ya. Be watchers, keep at it. We have episodes for all those critters. We're gonna link em in the show notes. But also we have our recent ethno psychology episode about why humans love dogs the most because they're the best.
- [32:23]
Julia Hotz
I had a question about this and Lizzie also asked as someone with anxiety that I'm finally treating after a long battle against myself to getting the help I needed, I've found that a combination of medication and therapy has been most effective. Asked essentially what is the push that usually gets people to consider it as a first step. And I wanted to ask a little bit about medication in conjunction with social prescribing because as someone with anxiety and who's medicated, I know that coming off of it can be absolutely rough. Or I have friends, you know, who have bipolar disorder who say just opting for something like social prescribing could be detrimental. How do you make sure that, that people don't take themselves off something that they really need?
- [33:06]
Patreon Question Asker
Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say oftentimes this was true for about half of the people I interviewed in the book. It is conjunction. Right. So I can't say it enough times that this is not aiming to replace medication. So it's not just like, all right, you know, time to cut you off the meds and I'm going to prescribe an art class now. Like, absolutely not. I would recommend Actually trying them both in conjunction and then seeing. Right. Because I do think oftentimes it is that first step that's really, really hard. The trained healthcare professional will be the best person to judge. Is the social prescription sort of the first line here or is it medication first or is it both? It's going to depend on a lot of factors, but I would say that not doing anything drastic to your sort of health recipe while you're also trying a social prescription, as is probably a good idea. Right. It's probably best to keep like all the other variables as constant as possible. And I think it can vary. I mean, for people like Amanda, she was able to go after her swimming lesson prescription from the maximum dose of SSRIs to the minimum. She's still on them in part because of the some of the reasons you describe. It can be really, really tough to get off and she still feels like she needs them for her full health to be optimal. And that's great. Like, that's what we want, you know, the goal of this, again, is not to get anybody off any kind of medication. It's just to help them feel healthier, where they're at with whatever their lives are and their current sort of health recipe is.
- [34:41]
Julia Hotz
Yeah. Speaking of recipe and ingestibles, Matt Sakato of Woodstock, Georgia wanted to know.
- [34:49]
Alie Ward
Okay, we'll hear what patron Matt asked in just a sec. But first, we'd love to throw some money at a good cause. Selected by Julia, who chose Grow nyc, which was born in the spirit of the first Earth Day. And their mission is to empower all New Yorkers with equitable access to fresh, locally grown food, neighborhood green spaces and care for the environment. And Julia says that Grow NYC puts out free horticultural education at field trips. They invest in green spaces so that more people, regardless of income or where you live, can have access to these medicines. And we will link them in the show notes. And thank you to Julia for the suggestion and sponsors for making it possible to support them. Have you ever thought about personal style and how there's like an art and a science behind it? There's neuroscience behind that. We don't have time to get into that. But having some confidence really changes the decisions that you make day to day. If you're like personal style, I don't know where to begin with that. Perhaps Daily look can help you out there. They are a styling service. They use data, science and your own personal stylist to help help you find your perfect balance between style and comfort. If you're like, what's Daily Look. Daily look is the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women. You can get started. You take a style quiz and then from there your personal stylist takes the time to kind of understand what your preferences are and creates a box of timeless and really versatile pieces just for you. How many things are in there? There's up to 12 premium pieces per box and you get to keep what you love. You return the rest. My first daily look look box. I was like, everything in here so fits my vibe. A lot of black, a lot of angular things and there were really lovely brands, pieces that I can hang on to for a while and I love that I can try it on at home. Anyway, elevate your style by signing up@dailylook.com today. Take your style quiz@dailylook.com and get 50 off your first styling fee with code Ologies Daily Look. You're looking good. So am I. Oh, Mother's Day gifts. More slippers. How many feet does she have? Probably not more than two. What does your mom want? Love and appreciation. This means an aura frame. Trust me. So an aura frame, it's a digital photo frame. You upload via an easy app any pictures you want on there. And then this beautiful digital photo frame, which was named the best one by wirecutter, means that your mom, instead of having to look on her tiny phone, her aura frame just sits there on her dresser and it scrolls past all these wonderful photos that you probably forgot you took. You can even just keep uploading more photos. There's unlimited storage. I got one of these for my dad. No joke. We brought it with us to the hospital when he was sick. Aura frames are such a good gift. And if it's for your mom, not only will she be grateful it's not another cardigan, but she'll also love that an aura frame means that she gets to see more of you. And Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver mat frame. So that's auraframes. A U R A frames.com promo code is Ologies. You can support the show by mentioning Ologies at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.
- [37:48]
Capella University Ad
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- [38:04]
Alie Ward
Don'T know about our flyer deals on.
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Patreon Question Asker
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Alie Ward
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Alie Ward
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Patreon Question Asker
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Alie Ward
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Patreon Question Asker
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Alie Ward
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Patreon Question Asker
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- [38:27]
Alie Ward
Plus get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Okay, back to your questions. On deck is patron Matt, who left us an audio message, which you can too by joining Patreon.com Ologies okay, so what say you, Matt Sacato from Woodstock, Georgia?
- [38:43]
Patreon Question Asker
How successful are prescribed activities? I once heard of somebody prescribed to run three miles a day and eventually that did lead to success. My dad is also prescribed one glass of red wine a day, which I do find interesting. Thanks, Allie.
- [39:03]
Julia Hotz
Thank you.
- [39:04]
Alie Ward
My pleasure.
- [39:05]
Julia Hotz
And Sam Warner, first time question asker, said, if we live in a place where the choice of non drinking social activities are pretty slim, how can we to change that? Brendan and Ashley, I thought, had a great question. How do social prescribers react to the gradual decline in third spaces that previously encouraged integration? And H asked if this is kind of like the role of a sponsor in AA and other 12 step groups when they tell you to do service work. And I'm wondering how substances maybe have replaced this kind of social prescribing. Yeah, going to a pub or a bar is maybe where you had an activity in common, but maybe the activity ultimately left you a little bit more depressed the next day.
- [39:47]
Patreon Question Asker
So yeah.
- [39:48]
Julia Hotz
How does this intersect with that?
- [39:49]
Patreon Question Asker
Absolutely. I'll tell you a really funny story. I love all these questions. I was on a road trip recently with two of my girlfriends, one of whom grew up in Mexico, another who grew up like me in the United States. We were like in the backseat, me and my friend from the US Pigging out on Oreos. Like, God, I love Oreos. I could eat this whole sleeve right now. My friend Ari, who grew up in Mexico, said, really? You know, and she's a therapist, by the way. She's like, that's interesting. Like, I love, you know, fried foods, I love nachos, but like, I've never had a sweet tooth. Why is that? And eventually on this very long road trip, we came to realize that part of the reason we love Oreos is because of our first memories with them at a sleepover with Your friends kind of figuring out who you are. Whereas Ari, she associates sleepovers with having nachos and popcorn. Okay, that seems like such a tangent, but I think it speaks to this point about substances and third spaces right now in our culture. It kind of sucks that to get the benefits of being in a place with people, getting to know new people, we also have to like order a drink or order the food or do this thing that A, like might not be accessible to people and B, to your point, might come with all of these other health detriments down the line. So what I love about social prescribing is it say let's isolate, let's take away the substances and just focus on the space or the activity. And it's very real. I mean, I think there's a reason why we're all talking about third spaces as a culture right now, because they're in decline. They've never been more important as we're seeing, you know, rising rates of, of loneliness and self reported isolation. That community center that teaches art classes on Thursday nights, It's not just a nice to have. It's not just going to have to be supported by donations or the people who can afford classes. We can actually do this through health care so that the insurer is actually reimbursing for the class the same way we would reimburse and cover for other kinds of drugs. So that to me is really, really exciting. But I think this is what I try to do in part three. There has to be this cultural revolution too, that we want this. I've seen the way that there have been a rise in non alcoholic drinks or really intentional spaces and communities that meet for the sake of meeting. And it's not built around alcohol or a substance. I think the rise of that speaks to our sort of cultural demand for we've had it. We know that buying stuff and continuing to sort of like socialize in the places we've been conditioned to, it's not cutting it anymore. What else you got for that? What else you got for us? And that's really exciting to me.
- [42:42]
Alie Ward
So demanding more community spaces and activities. So we're not just spending $120 going out to dinner to shout over loud music. Let's riot in favor of this. All those who are with me say twice monthly crafternoon with nice strangers or friends. Twice monthly crafternoon with nice strangers or friends. Although craft supplies can also be habit for me.
- [43:03]
Julia Hotz
Did you ever study any rehabs when you were doing this? Any kind of like daily activities or Weekly activities.
- [43:10]
Alie Ward
Yeah.
- [43:10]
Patreon Question Asker
So the 12 step question, I forgot to address that. And that's related to the rehab. I love that I have a friend, actually, who's, who's in AA right now and really resonated with this book because it's really about the what matters to you question. It's amazing how so many different disciplines, rehabs, you know, centers, have all kind of congregated their philosophy and curriculum around this idea. Yeah, let's focus on the things and the people and environments that make you feel the healthiest, that make you feel like the person that you are, that understand that this thing that you're going through right now, nothing is broken in you. Right. You are not just. Just the product of this disease or this affliction or this hardship. There's also all these other things about you. And so kind of like Doc Zoff says on the Dolerology episode, all of these sort of rehabs and therapy programs and orientations related to social prescribing really come down to asking that question. What can we do to build your health plate? What would make you feel healthy? There's sort of like the categorical things like social connection and a sense of purpose, but then there's like the specific things like ukulele classes and bird watching and, you know, volunteering to teach young kids about bugs. I mean, what are the things that make you feel like you are who you are that should be considered medicine?
- [44:45]
Alie Ward
Also, I do want to give a shout out to rehabs because they are living in the future, which, as it turns out, is also our evolution past. So most rehabilitation facilities, or even outpatient intensive care, use these ways of social prescribing in conjunction with tailored medications to help people break out of an addiction cycle or recover from mental health episodes. So what is on the daily schedule at rehab? Turns out regular exercise, community activities, art therapy, yoga, music therapy, equine therapy, learning new skills and taking classes, group therapy sessions, exploring some new hobbies to replace cravings or compulsions, and helping others process trauma by sharing your own journeys. So all of these are proven ways to build confidence and connect with others and understand ourselves more deeply. So if these are tried and true strategies to help people completely change their lives, sometimes from rock bottom, it's worth a shot for getting through a tough breakup or grief or loneliness on the topic.
- [45:51]
Julia Hotz
Last question from listeners. A lot of people asked about practitioners. Janet wanted to know, who is the person or people that are prescribing? Christine Wenzel wants to know. As a young professional in the nonprofit space, I'M curious about how one becomes a social prescriber. Is it doctors or is there a growing practice of social prescriber consultants? Laurie Anderson, first time question asker, wants to know if you work alongside medical doctors, are you more interested independent Pup E Dog, Mariana Alvarez and Earl Gramkin also asked who's doing it? Where do you do it? How do you do it?
- [46:22]
Patreon Question Asker
Yay. I'm so glad you asked because I can plug this amazing non profit grassroots group called Social Prescribing USA that's trying to build this exact network. So to the questions, yes, there are doctors doing this. I just came from Utah where there's a group of 40 therapists doing this in Vermont, they're doing this in community health centers, Social workers are doing this. Here in New York City. The movement is growing and like most great social movements, it started and sustained by people who like just really care. You know, nobody who's doing this is getting any extra kickbacks or fees for doing social prescribing. They're doing it because they really believe in the science and that this is what's best for their patients. So if you want to learn more, you should check out the work of Social Prescribing usa. They have these monthly calls where doctors and therapists and social workers and community health workers are all getting together and like talking the plan, like, how are we going to do this? How are we going to spread this? That would be my advice to get involved as well as on socialprescribing. Co, you know, there are more local groups that you might be interested in getting involved in as well as checking out all the science science that supports this.
- [47:34]
Alie Ward
Social Prescribing USA has a whole page dedicated to an evidence library and another detailing global social prescribing efforts, plus a bunch of resources. So that's socialprescribingusa.com and we'll link it on our website at alieward.com ologies do.
- [47:52]
Julia Hotz
You think getting involved in any protests.
- [47:54]
Alie Ward
Does that count or is it too high stakes?
- [47:56]
Julia Hotz
Like if you're making protest art, if you're getting together with people who have a common cause, or is that not too stressful in and of itself, that that's like a separate thing?
- [48:04]
Patreon Question Asker
God, I love that question. And I, I mean with everything, it depends. For me, I think that a protest would have a lot of appealing elements of a social prescription. Because it's service, because it's belonging, and because it's art. It is meaning making from this collective helplessness that we feel when we do Nothing with that. When that stays in our bodies and when we're just forced to, like, conf. Confront that on our media feeds, that's really bad. You know, it keeps us up at night, it disrupts our sleep, it makes us more physically tense. We're in a more negative mood. But by protesting, I think probably outside, probably with neighbors that you haven't met before, probably some beautiful, meaningful discussion of, like, what it means to be a human and why you're there. That kind of meaning. Making, I think, think is extremely beneficial, not, I think, I know, is extremely beneficial for our health. There's a wild study that shows people who have a sense of purpose later in life literally live longer than those who don't.
- [49:10]
Alie Ward
In case you want to do that, live longer.
- [49:13]
Patreon Question Asker
So I think that trickles down to all of us as well. If we spend our time instead of just consuming and accepting the sort of horrific things we're dealing with, that's gonna affect our health negatively. But if we can protest and do something about it in community, that's gonna help us feel better. But basically, with protesting, like, I think there's a reason why that's been around as a form of meaning making for such a long time.
- [49:40]
Alie Ward
And so many things to choose from. Get yourself some cardboard. March to a march, make some friends.
- [49:46]
Julia Hotz
And I know things to rally against are a bummer, but one of my last questions. What's the hardest thing about writing the book or social prescribing or just tackling this topic or in general?
- [49:58]
Patreon Question Asker
The hardest thing, I think, is that I. That there's only 24 hours in a day. Like, I really believe that right now in history, we are so right for this. And if I wish that we had more time to really understand this, I wish there were more time for doctors to learn about this. I wish there was more money for, you know, healthcare practices to invest in. Link workers invest in community groups that are doing the work. So I think the hardest part is trying to understand what do we do with the limited amount of time. And that's what's kind of beautiful about having written this book and sort of being in this space. Like, this isn't me. I'm just reporting it. It's on everyone else to sort of take this up. And, you know, I'm trying to be as useful as possible as I can, but, God, sometimes I just wish that I had nine clones running around to help.
- [50:54]
Julia Hotz
Well, I'm sure that this alone inspire a lot of people to look into this and get involved. So, you know, at least Nine people are probably gonna steer their boat toward this.
- [51:04]
Patreon Question Asker
Well, and that kind of leads me to the best thing about this, which is that I get emails all the time from people who've read this and are like, I wanna help. You know, I'm a librarian, what can I do? I am recently widowed and I really believe in this, but I don't know where to begin. But I have a lot of time on my hands. What can I do? Do? We're starting to organize these like all hands meetings, talk about protest, getting those people to come together, talk about what can they do to actually implement something in their community. What can they do to, you know, write to their politician or write to their healthcare providers and talk about this? Because I think that's where it begins. We all just need to start talking about it. And what's great is that literally anyone can help with that, you know, and that it's fun. It's really, really fun.
- [51:52]
Alie Ward
Even forming a group, even if you've.
- [51:54]
Julia Hotz
Got a community and you know, you tell anyone, like we're playing kickball on Sunday afternoons or something, or, you know, there's a run club in my neighborhood and I used to see them pass and there were maybe 20 people. There's like a hundred people in this run club that just go around my neighborhood. I see them on Thursday nights and they meet at the same place. And you know, I feel like there's a lot of that community based stuff that if you, if you're looking to change your community but you're not sure how to start, like what are you into and who else can you find that's into that too, you know, which is great.
- [52:25]
Patreon Question Asker
Exactly. Gosh, I've seen that too. I'll just tell one quick example. My bird watching club, when it started, it was five people. It's grown to over 150 people. And now they've had to add days. Yeah, like people want this.
- [52:41]
Capella University Ad
So it's like, let's give the people.
- [52:42]
Patreon Question Asker
What they want and let's get those healthcare dollars and resources involved to make it as easy and barrier free to people too.
- [52:49]
Julia Hotz
Yeah, this is great.
- [52:51]
Alie Ward
This is so inspiring.
- [52:52]
Julia Hotz
And it's also really validating that the.
- [52:54]
Alie Ward
Things that I think are treats, I.
- [52:57]
Julia Hotz
Shouldn'T save them for treats. I shouldn't have to earn going on a walk. I shouldn't have to earn going to a class. I shouldn't have to have my life completely together before I can fit in something that is pleasurable. Like my life will be better if I just do that, you know?
- [53:12]
Patreon Question Asker
Absolutely. And that's why I'm gonna give this to you and I want you to put it on your desk.
- [53:16]
Alie Ward
I will. I love it.
- [53:18]
Patreon Question Asker
Listeners, I'm holding up Ali's tailor made social prescription with the ukulele and the bugs and the trees and Jared and the dog. I think that it's so important that we talk about this stuff as medicine, because it is. Nobody would say, oh, I'll take, take my blood pressure medication if I have time. So I think the more we can talk about this and treat it in our own lives as medicine, the more we can sort of be the change we want to see. I just really think that this can help so many people. I know that it has helped so many people and I'm excited to see where it goes.
- [53:52]
Julia Hotz
I think everyone should save one of their prescription bottles and then just make little paper cutouts or make a diorama in it.
- [53:58]
Alie Ward
Yeah.
- [53:59]
Patreon Question Asker
Oh, and do it as a group. That could be a fun thing. Social prescription making. We solved it.
- [54:08]
Alie Ward
So once again, ask salugenological people sometimes basic questions. Sometimes they're not smart and that's fine. Also, people fuck the system. Do the things that your ancestors evolved you to do. As I said last week, TV and scrolling steals your time and your life and your money. Pharmaceutical companies love it when you're sick and sad. There are people out there whose lives will be changed by hanging out and crafting or biking or fishing or chatting. This is the stuff that makes life easier and makes us stronger to get through the hard parts and my boy howdy are their hard parts. So take a fuck, you walk. Don't surrender your life to corporations. Cut banks, text your crush. Volunteer somewhere you selfishly love being. Join a club, start a club. Thank us later. Thank Julia once again. Her book is the Connection Cure and you can find her on Instagram hotsthoughts which we'll link in the show notes. Along with Grow nyc we have links to all the research we talked about on our website@alieward.com Ologies Salugenology linked in the show notes. We are ologies on Instagram and on Bluesky. I'm Ally Ward with one L on both. Smallogies are those kid friendly episodes and they are shorter. They're wherever you find podcasts. They're in their own feed. Look for smologies. They're linked in the show notes too. You can find merch at all ologiesmerch.com you can tag your photos ologiesmerch or tag us and we'll Repost to you on Mondays. Thank you to Erin Talbert who admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Avileen Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer does the website. Noelle Dilworth is our lovely scheduling producer. Susan Hale managing directs the whole shebang. Jake Chaffee edits beautifully. Wonderful dude. And lead editor. Captain of the editing ship is Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around until the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this week is I went to the ukulele club. I went, I almost chickened out. And in fact I showed up an hour late. Cause I almost didn't go. I was like, I didn't practice enough. I tuned my ukulele and it sounds amazing. This ukulele I bought for $20 on Craigslist, like when people were still using Craigslist. That's how long I've had it. And it is a junk ukulele, but it is mine and I love it. And I went there and there were like 15, 20 people. They all had their ukuleles. They playing along to all kinds of pop hits from the 80s. It was amazing. I loved it. I will be back. And they say even if you can't play along to all the chords, you could just sing in the back and pluck as you might. Anyway, it was so great and I'm really happy that Julia kind of cajoled me into doing it. And it's a great thing to look forward to. So, so very excited. I will not be playing a ukulele concert anytime soon for any of you. I respect you too much to do that, but it is very fun and very cute and also I love going on walks around the lake. So that has all changed our lives for the better. So get her book or just do her stuff that she told you to do in this and report back. Let me know how it's going. Okay?
- [57:21]
Julia Hotz
Pachydermatology, Ectozoology, Lithology.
- [57:26]
Alie Ward
Nanotechnology.
- [57:28]
Julia Hotz
Meteorology.
- [57:29]
Alie Ward
Olfactology.
- [57:30]
Julia Hotz
Maple.
- [57:39]
Alie Ward
Find yourself a hobby.
- [57:41]
Capella University Ad
Earn a business degree on your terms at Capella University. Our flexpath format is available in select programs and lets you learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella Eduardo.