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Why Post-Purchase Communication Could Become Retail’s Next Big Differentiator | Spotlight Series
00:25:20
In this Spotlight Series interview, Catherine Dum…
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- [00:00]
Chris Walton
Foreign.
- [00:09]
Anne Mazinga
Welcome to the latest edition of the Omnitalk Spotlight series, the series that highlights the people, the companies and the technologies that are shaping the future of retail. I'm one of your co hosts for today's interview, Anne Mazinga.
- [00:21]
Chris Walton
And I'm Chris Walton.
- [00:22]
Anne Mazinga
And we have a guest today from a company who I've long admired and who I feel like I interact with on a weekly basis. As I'm sure many of you will find out, you do, too. Today we're joined by Katherine Dummett, vice president of marketing at Narvar. Catherine, we're so happy to have you on the show. Welcome.
- [00:42]
Katherine Dummett
Thank you, Anne. Nice to see you.
- [00:44]
Chris Walton
Chris, Nice to see you too. Yes, to see you too. So I think what Ed was alluding to there is, Catherine, is that she has a massive shopping addiction. And so she's like, chris, this is worse. Always work. And yes, it is. It's research. Yes, it's all that. It's all in the guise of research. But anyway, lack of a better way to put it, major addiction. And so she's likely using your services quite often. But why don't we start by having you tell our audience what Narvar is for those maybe that don't remember some of the past conversations we have? And what, what also do you oversee in your role there too?
- [01:16]
Katherine Dummett
Yeah, absolutely. So for those that are unfamiliar with Narvar, we are the number one platform for intelligent personalization beyond buy. So let me make that real. If you've ever tracked a package from Sephora Fora or initiated a return from Levi's or maybe received delivery updates from Sonos, there's a really good chance you've actually interacted with Narvar and you just didn't know it. It's actually crazy because we touch over 90% of the US population online, and so no one has that kind of reach and understanding of consumer behavior except for Amazon. I'll give them that.
- [01:56]
Chris Walton
Got to throw them a boat. Amazon needs a boat every once in a while.
- [01:59]
Katherine Dummett
They do, they do. And they're not doing too well out there.
- [02:02]
Chris Walton
Right.
- [02:03]
Katherine Dummett
But we're not just about like delivering those great customer experiences. What we're really trying to do is help retailers transform what has traditionally been overlooked, the post purchase experience, which was historically kind of just a support function. And we're looking at that as a strategic advantage. One area that you can really help grow brand loyalty, grow revenue, and ultimately protect revenue as well. Fraud is on the rise. So what we're leaning into is AI to mitigate delivery Claim fraud, return fraud and send proactive communications in the order journey. We're really helping brands just build trust at scale and as the VP of marketing I am responsible for telling that story to the market. And so that spans everything from demand gen to product positioning to thought leadership. And I think that's what for me like I get really excited about. We created this category so we have this responsibility to lean into that thought leadership and share with retailers what the value is beyond buy. So tldr, my role is to translate the complexity into a clear, compelling narrative that shows how Narvar helps retailers transform that post purchase center into a real competitive edge.
- [03:21]
Chris Walton
Awesome. I think, I think you just did that pretty well because one of the reasons I was like having you back on is this topic. And so basically what you're saying in a nutshell is you're the platform for retails and brands to help understand how they're performing from a post purchase perspective. Is that right?
- [03:34]
Katherine Dummett
Yeah, absolutely. We're unlocking that understanding and also helping them power that entire part of the customer journey.
- [03:42]
Anne Mazinga
Well, Katherine, one of the things that I want to make sure we talk about too and Chris, like this was a huge topic at shop talk or grocery shop even just a few years ago into the last couple of months. But where are you going?
- [03:57]
Chris Walton
I don't know where you're going.
- [03:59]
Anne Mazinga
Instant delivery like, and I think that's something I want to get Catherine's perspective on too because I think that's an area that Narvar's really kind of got a lot of data on and can speak very intelligently to because it's not about, we've learned as a culture, it's not about, you know, that 15 minute delivery anymore, but really about delivery confidence. Some of the things that Katherine just mentioned like making sure that you have updates in the delivery journey in your post purchase and return journey. But Katherine, I'd love for you to talk about kind of how important it is for your brand partners to kind of change this perception of, of fast delivery and really restructure that to being more focused on delivery confidence and communicating that with your consumers.
- [04:47]
Katherine Dummett
Yeah, absolutely. And I, it's so funny because I remember like that time period where oh yeah was like the ultimate north star. And I, I think about like I lived in New York at the time and I would walk around the streets of the city and see net a porte like shiny vans that had just been released promising like these two hour delivery windows and it was so exciting, it felt so surreal to have that sort of like instant gratification when it came to shopping. But, but when I, when I think back to that moment, that's not why I was a loyalist to net a porter. Like why I ultimately loved the brand and continued to shop with them was because they always delivered on their brand promise. They were able to let me feel like a fashion editor roaming the same streets of New York as the Carrie Bradshaws of the world. It was, it was just this aspiration that I wanted to lean into. And so if I fast forward today, I think our data is telling us something a little bit similar but, but different of course. And I'm reflecting on this piece of research McKenzie recently put out that is all around what do US consumers want from E Comm deliveries today? And so much is changing. Like as we know, markets are crazy. There's so many different things happening in the macro landscape without getting too in the weeds there. But when they looked at delivery speed, that was once the number one thing for consumers. What they wanted out of their E Comm experience, that was number one in 2020 to it is now when they looked at 2024, the number fifth thing that they prioritize and what they actually ranked as number one was reliability of knowing when their package was going to get there.
- [06:30]
Anne Mazinga
Well, I was just going to ask you quick, like, don't you think perhaps that like maybe that 15 minute speed is what drove us to want to know? Like that was the first time that I had an idea of like, you know, my Gopuff delivery is going to be around the corner and here in five minutes or here in 10 minutes or they're shopping for the item. Like do you think that had an impact on like how we perceive these notifications for the rest of our E commerce purchases?
- [06:56]
Katherine Dummett
I mean absolutely. I always think about Amazon prime that like Amazon's always the forefront of like peppering the market and like kind of forcing consumer, not forcing, encouraging consumer behavior in a way in which they innovate. And I think about like GoPuff's a really good example, like 15 minutes to get your Snickers bar. Although I don't think I ordered a Snickers bar. And so you have this expectation, I need my snickers bar in 15 minutes. And the second that clock hits 16 minutes you're like, where the heck is this Snickers bar? And so I think like the combination of Amazon prime delivery plus some of these more like on demand services, definitely the pandemic creating this like insane cycle of expectation of time of delivery definitely set the stage for this kind of change in behavior and expectation.
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Chris Walton
Yeah. And it's also like how far can you push it too? Right. I mean that's the other thing I take from the data in 2022 versus I think you said 2024. Right. It's like, you know, you get to a point where just the marginal, the marginal benefit of you know, decreasing delivery speed another minute just becomes, comes irrelevant when it against like the confidence that it's actually going to be there when you say it is too. Right, Catherine?
- [08:13]
Katherine Dummett
Yeah, absolutely. And like in this survey actually they, they polled the folks like what happens when brands do get it wrong? And 85% of consumers were like, hey, I'm actually totally fine with the delay as long as you just communicate it to me. Like set that expectation, create the trust with me and I will follow you. I, and I think that's, that's such like a good lesson to lean into for retailers today, especially with all of the margin pressures. If we think about rising shipping costs and tightening policies and the global tariff impacts, like retailers have to be so much more deliberate with what they are doing. Every delivery promise has to balance both the consumer expectations with what's reality and, and what will ultimately impact your bottom line. And I think that's where reliability becomes much more than convenience. It really becomes like a competitive strategy for folks to lean into. And if I think about like what we're doing at Narvar and where we're leaning in, we really are focused on that delivery confidence over speed. Because when brands lead with that clarity and follow through with that precision, that is what builds really like long term loyalty. And it's not that fast is the enemy. It's that unpredictability is and in today's market, predictability is profitability and it's what turns a good experience into a repeat one and a first time buyer really into a lifelong advocate.
- [09:41]
Chris Walton
That's a really good phrase. I've never heard that before. Predictability is profitability. That's really, that's really, that's really smart. I might, I might borrow that in, in a future podcast, Catherine, if you're okay with it. It's particularly interesting too, I think when you think about how retailers are leaning into subscription programs and the online presence of subscription programs and making their relationships with their customer, I'd say their goal is to be more predictable with them. I would 100% agree with that. All right, So I remember back to my days as you know, heading up home furnishings for Target.com, which you know, because Quick delivery is one thing, but there's all kinds of aspects to delivery that one has to think about and all different types of products categories too that one has to consider or ship. So you know, so you know, getting a product to consumers is still a major expenditure for many of these companies, even when they're delivering two or three days or more. How is Narvar helping its clients think about this dynamic in the most strategic way possible and not just chase the latest trend or to try to keep pace with the competitors?
- [10:38]
Katherine Dummett
Yeah, it's really a great question, Chris. And because shipping still remains one of the biggest cost centers in E commerce and the pressure to offer free delivery continues to really only intensify, but the smartest brands today really aren't chasing that speed for speed's sake or making blanket offers just to stay competitive. They are being more strategic. And that's where we're trying to lead the conversation with our customers and our retail partners. Because what you can do is you can lean into free shipping as a powerful lever for conversion or for driving loyalty, but only when it's deployed with intention. Blanket policies like, they just erode margins. And like, instead of, instead of like leaning into like one size fits all for free shipping you need to be asking who has earned this perk, who is likely to convert again and repurchase if we offer it. And sometimes it makes sense, particularly for those high value loyal consumers. Other times it's just not what they care about. Predictability, like I said, proactive communication or delivery protection, even like that may offer more value to the end consumer and inevitably your business. So I think it comes down to making like these smarter trade offs and operating with operational precision. You can't just offer perk and hope for the best. Although like wouldn't that be nice? You really have to, you have to deliver on it. And when you do, shipping becomes more than a cost to absorb. It becomes a real tool to build trust, to grow lifetime value, to even nudge behavior like increasing basket size or shifting towards higher margin skus. So yeah, I don't think it's about keeping pace with like the, the fastest or flashiest. I think it's about being intentional, making every delivery decision support your bottom line and ultimately your consumer relationships.
- [12:24]
Chris Walton
Yeah, and I think history backs you up too, Catherine. I mean, I think, I think one thing I'll say, cause I know you won't say it is, I mean I think that's how you know Amazon grew on the back of what you just said. You know, confidence in shipping and you know, now you look. I mean, and I've talked about it a lot on PR on the podcast, our weekly podcast that, you know, prime isn't necessarily as competitive as it once was, but yet Amazon has the tailwind of great shipping expectations behind it, which, you know, people are still plucking down that annual fee every year.
- [12:49]
Katherine Dummett
Absolutely. And, like, I don't know if. If y' all are our prime subscribers, but, like, I mean, this is not meant to be like a rain on the Amazon parade. I really did not come on here today and, like, talk about them this much, but, like, I think about my own experience with prime, and I'm like, you know, three, four years ago, they were delivering on that prime promise, like, time and time again. And I feel like I'm just, no pun intended, primed to, like, go to them for things I need in a pinch. But in actuality, like, if I think back to, like, my last four or five orders, they actually have not fulfilled them in the timing in which was. Was promised.
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Chris Walton
Right.
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Katherine Dummett
So.
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Anne Mazinga
Well, and Catherine, I. One question that I want to get back to, too. You were talking about kind of personalization for offers like free shipping and things like that. Are you then using this collection of data that you've gathered at Narvar from all of the. What was it, 90% of brands that are using. That are using Narvar. Are you using that to kind of help other brands understand how to kind of use some of those personalization tactics to help grow their business, like, whether that's, you know, offers or better delivery, to promise guarantees? Like, how are you using that huge collection, that brain of data that you have to, like, help each of your consumers figure out what the best way is to communicate and do personalized offers for their. Their customers?
- [14:22]
Chris Walton
Yeah.
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Katherine Dummett
So I think we are. We're very lucky to have that reach that we talked about. We actually were like, over 42 billion consumer interactions annually. So, like, we have the data at our fingertips to understand what is going to move the needle. And if I think about the delivery journey, like, we all know it's such an emotionally charged moment for consumers. It's where that trust is earned or lost, like we talked about. And it doesn't stop. It doesn't start at the doorstep. It really starts at checkout.
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Anne Mazinga
Mm.
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Katherine Dummett
And so what we're doing is we're really trying to help brands think about that moment, set clear expectations early on, lean into personalized delivery estimates, transparency through that, you know, order journey, sharing those shipping policies up front, even, like, early signals around return Flexibility, all of that helps consumers feel really confident clicking buy. And that confidence is what reduces the cart abandonment problem that we're seeing and driving higher conversion across the board. But like, I also think it's really important that, yeah, setting the promise is critical for the conversion, but you have to keep it. And that's where communication inevitably plays a massive role. When consumers know where their order is, what's happening next, if something goes wrong, inevitably their anxiety goes down and their brand loyalty to you will just go up. You know, like data nerd here. But like, over 70% of consumers are more likely to repurchase with the same retailer if they're satisfied with that delivery experience. It doesn't mean I got it on time. It means I was informed during the entire journey. And it can have a real financial impact too. If I think about a number of the brands that we've worked with just by like leaning into communication, we had one retailer recently lift see a revenue lift of almost $2 million over three months just simply from leaning into engaging their consumers during the tracking of their order journey. And like, that's a pretty big unlock. So I think it's, it's about removing friction at every step of the journey. Because when the brand says, hey, I got you. This is what you need to expect, and then actually delivers on that promise, that's how trust is built and that's what keeps consumers coming back. Because at the end of the day, your next sale really starts with your last shipment and the post purchase experience. Experience isn't the end of your journey, it's the beginning of the next one.
- [16:53]
Chris Walton
Kathy, you said something really interesting there that I want to make sure we tease out for the audience too, because I think there's a bit of a nugget in what you said, which is you talked about checkout and personalizing. You know, personalization starts really at the checkout process, which, you know, having been a retailer in the space, like anytime you mess with checkout, you're like, oh, gosh, wait. But at the same time, it's a fairly easy thing to AB test because you just are changing the placement of different things within that checkout experience. But what you're saying is you have to go beyond that. It's not just simply the ab test at checkout that you actually have to track what you're promising against in those tests to make sure that you're delivering on them. Because if you don't, then you could actually cause yourselves more problems down the line.
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Katherine Dummett
Absolutely. I mean, that's where your Your trust is going to completely erode and in this volatile market, like no one can afford that.
- [17:41]
Chris Walton
Right. And then the other point you said too is that if you track it and you keep, you know, you keep a hold of it, it actually gives you another avenue for communication as well. In the $2 million example that you.
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Katherine Dummett
Shared, it's really crazy to me that retailers still are directing their consumers to sometimes to like carrier pages for tracking their orders, not using that like prime real estate like it. To me it just kind of feels like table stakes. Like you need to have this opportunity to upsell and further engage your consumers. Like this is such incredible, such an incredible opportunity to like lean in and maybe upsell a product recommendation or advertise your loyalty program or even just, you know, if you have a brand that's really anchored in sustainability, like promote your different ESG initiatives. So I just, I think there's a lot that brands could do more to lean into like these moments to drive incremental value and build that trust with the consumer.
- [18:37]
Anne Mazinga
Well, and Catherine, I think the other important thing to point out here too, and especially for our listeners, is that this isn't just like high end brands too. I mean you work with all kinds of brands and to really get that experience as you know, a shopper of a, even a fast fashion item or something like to get that confidence and that engagement. When you see that Narvar text pop up of like hey this is on its way or this is, this is going to be here earlier, like all these things, it's, it just feels like a really high touch moment. That is not a huge effort for a lot of these retailers to still provide this like luxury type experience at a lower price point. Is that, is that the case or have you heard that from some of the partners that you work with?
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Katherine Dummett
No, I definitely think that's the case. And I think back like seven, eight years ago when I feel like the talk of the town was like, oh my gosh, like luxury brands are so behind when it comes to digital transformation because the online experience doesn't match the in store. And yes, there's still some of that that there we need to evolve and innovate together on. But I do think that post purchase and communication has unlocked a more premier experience and that is why we have seen more folks actually drive innovation with their E commerce experiences.
- [19:55]
Chris Walton
Yeah, that's a huge nugget. That's a huge nugget too, you know, like the fact that there is a branding opportunity in this post purchase communication like the One text. And I'm sure, I'm sure you read every text you get that gives you a notification of when your order is going to arrive. You do? I do. I never, I've never thought about that until, until this conversation. Which leads me to my next question because I know we've heard you talk in the past that you talk about post purchase communication with customers as kind of a trust center versus a cost center. What is that, what does that phrase trust center mean? And, and what, what are the opportunities? Are there more opportunities? What we've been discussing around that idea here? Yeah.
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Katherine Dummett
So I think like, not to sound like a broken record, but it really, it means rethinking how we view moments after a purchase is made. Too often post purchase has been treated as damage control, something that really only comes into play when a consumer asks where's my order? Or it's missing. And in reality it's like one of the highest impact windows to shape perception, reinforce your brand values and build that long term trust. And when brands treat post purchase as a trust center, it's not, it's not a cost center. They stop thinking about it purely in terms of support volume and start recognizing the true upside. And like those proactive branded communications, they are so critical to also helping offload some operational costs as well. Like they can reduce gizmo where's my order calls by like 60%. And it's, but, but it is more than that. It's keeping your brand top of mind during these critical engagement periods, leading oftentimes to like those higher repeat purchase rates. And then I think about like shipping protection, which adding this at checkout does a lot more than just protect the order, it protects the relationship by giving consumers real peace of mind. Especially in a world where porch theft, lost packages and like delivery delays, they're on the rise. And it's, it's crazy to me how majority of Americans are actually saying they have an increased amount of anxiety about packaged stuff today. Like I'm sure you all have seen crazy TikToks or Instagram videos going viral of people like snagging packages off the porches, which was not a problem I had in New York. There were no porches. And but now that I'm in suburban America, I'm like, oh, actually I am a little bit worried about my package being stolen. And so thinking about shipping protection or offering something like that at checkout, it really builds that confidence. And if I even take it a step further, there's like a, there's a really big cherry on Top, it unlocks a huge new revenue stream for the brand. So it's not just about protecting margins or avoiding, like, even delivery claims. It's about really creating successes for your brand, for the consumer, even for your support teams. And that is what a true trust center, I think, looks like.
- [22:52]
Anne Mazinga
Well, Katherine, I am so excited to hear from you as we kind of close this up, what you and the team are working on for the second half of the year and into 2026. Where can we take this trust center in the new year?
- [23:11]
Katherine Dummett
Yeah, so I think what I'm really excited about is that we are starting to really have these conversations right now with retailers where that post purchase part of the customer journey is being seen as that strategic lever. It's where that loyalty is built, margins are protected, and growth gets unlocked. And so if I think about Narvar, what we're doing is we're doubling down on intelligence, personalization, efficiency. And at the heart of it all is Iris, our AI engine, which is turning those 42 billion plus annual consumer interactions into insights that brands can really leverage and act upon. So it's not just about, like meeting expectations, it's about anticipating them, enabling hyper personalization to unlock trust and inevitably drive operational precision at scale. And I think this is a real shift for, for this part of the journey, which has historically just been so rigid and reactive. We're offering a lot of agility and, you know, through smarter delivery or more strategic returns, preventing fraud without alienating loyal customers. So it's really, it's really energizing for me to see customer shift away from how do we fix this to how do we grow from here. And I think that mindset is really powerful for our industry and we're just getting started.
- [24:29]
Chris Walton
Yeah. Wow, this is, this has been great stuff, Catherine. You know, my, my, my goal for every podcast we do is to always learn something and to just kind of have that aha, aha moment. And I think you, I know you gave me personally at least two or three of them and I'm sure, I'm sure the same is true for you as well. But so, yeah, nicely done. So if, if people want to get in touch with you and learn more about, you know, you or the team at Narvar, what's the best way for them to do that?
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Katherine Dummett
You can always find me on LinkedIn. I am there and I'm ready to chat.
- [25:00]
Chris Walton
Ready to chat. LinkedIn. We love it. LinkedIn. God, where would we be without LinkedIn? And God, I have no idea, but that's great. Well, that wraps us up. Thanks to everyone for listening in and thanks to Katherine for sitting down with us today. And as always, on behalf of all of us here at Omnitalk, be careful out there.