ON BENJAMIN FRANKLIN Episode 4: The Statesman

Summary

ON CRISPR: The Story of Jennifer Doudna with Walter Isaacson

ON BENJAMIN FRANKLIN Episode 4: The Statesman

iHeartPodcasts and Kaleidoscope | Aired: September 19, 2024

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Episode Overview

In this episode, biographer Walter Isaacson joins host Evan Ratliff to explore the diplomatic genius and political evolution of Benjamin Franklin as “The Statesman.” Focusing on Franklin’s crucial roles from pre-Revolutionary tensions to the crafting of America’s foundational documents, Isaacson details how Franklin’s skills as a mediator, pragmatist, and world-class diplomat not only shaped American policy but also changed the course of history during the Revolution and its aftermath. The episode dives deeply into Franklin’s transition from loyal British subject to determined revolutionary and master international negotiator, particularly in the context of forging the alliance with France.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Personal Cost of Revolution: Franklin Versus His Son

• Franklin’s rift with his son: Franklin asks his loyalist son William (Royal Governor of New Jersey) to resign and join the Revolution. William refuses, causing an irreparable break.

  “Franklin tells William he's going to be on the side of the revolution and that William should resign his governorship. And William doesn't. ...it’s a rift that never gets repaired.”
  —Walter Isaacson (02:44)

• Franklin’s loyalties crystallized by family sacrifice.

  “He lets his son be arrested and imprisoned in Connecticut. I think it's because Benjamin Franklin wanted to make it clear he didn't have divided loyalties.”
  —Walter Isaacson (20:01)

2. Early Political Career and the Penn Family Dispute

• Franklin transitions from civic leader to political activist:

  “When he retires in his early 40s... he believes that we have to all work together... Franklin is trying to work out a system where...we now have to tax ourselves. We now have to govern ourselves.”
  —Walter Isaacson (04:58)

• The battle with the Penn family over self-governance and taxation becomes a stepping stone to the Revolution.

  “His first mission is simply to loosen the power of the Penn family.”
  —Walter Isaacson (05:47)

3. London: A Lesson in Power, Class, and Celebrity

• Franklin as a colonial agent in London: Astonished by the city’s scale and class divides, Franklin connects with a burgeoning middle class at coffeehouses.

  “He gravitate[s] to...coffee shops which provided newspapers and tables where you could sit all afternoon...and discuss current events. And that's where Franklin gravitated.”
  —Walter Isaacson (06:44)

• Navigating celebrity and scandal: Franklin becomes a media target and learns the risks of fame.

  “Your slightest indiscretions will be magnified into crimes in order to sensibly wound and afflict me.”
  —Franklin letter, cited by Isaacson (09:06)

• Attempted compromise with the British Empire ultimately fails: Franklin envisions a Commonwealth similar to Canada but is publicly humiliated.

  “He gets called before a hearing of Parliament...and gets prosecuted...this is the beginning of his realization that, no, this is not going to work.”
  —Walter Isaacson (11:25)

4. Minister of Revolution: From Centrist to Firebrand

• Franklin is initially cautious about breaking with Britain, but the mood at home steers him toward revolution.

  “...he has to scramble. And in a way that pushes him towards...becoming more revolutionary because he realizes that...anti British sentiments...had welled up in America.”
  —Walter Isaacson (12:30)

• Instrumental in launching revolutionary media: Franklin supports Thomas Paine and the publication of "Common Sense,"

  “He was the one who had helped bring Thomas Paine over from England...and helped get Common Sense published.”
  —Walter Isaacson (13:11)

5. The Declaration of Independence: Master Editor and Collaborator

• Franklin’s influence on iconic American ideals:

  “Jefferson writes...‘we hold these truths to be sacred.’ And Franklin...takes it out and writes ‘self evident’ and explains, we're trying to create a new type of nation in which our rights come not from the dictates of religion, but from rationality and reason.”
  —Walter Isaacson (20:49)

• Balancing rationality and faith:

  “There's a certain balance that we strike when we're figuring out our role as a nation.”
  —Walter Isaacson (23:03)

• Jefferson, Franklin and Adams’ collaborative process symbolized the ideal of teamwork among the founders.

6. From “Join, or Die” to Diplomatic Victory: Franklin’s Symbolism

• How Franklin’s visual flair galvanized revolutionary identity:

  “Franklin's genius of...knowing how to visually convey information—how a Join or Die cartoon...can have an impact.”
  —Walter Isaacson (26:21)

• Franklin established iconic American symbols:

  “He loved a snake. He's got the snake in Join or Die. There's the Don't Tread on Me snake...”
  —Evan Ratliff (26:36)

7. Diplomatic Tour-de-Force: Winning France’s Allegiance

• Franklin in France—celebrity, charm, and public relations:

  “He wears, instead of a wig, he wears this backwoods fur cap...in Paris, the women are wearing cafeurs a la Franklin...he just totally wins over the French people.”
  —Walter Isaacson (35:34)

• Master of balancing realpolitik with lofty ideals:

  “He gets to France and he plays this balance of power game...but he also plays an idealistic game...He wants to play to [liberty, equality, fraternity] as well.”
  —Walter Isaacson (33:58)

• Franklin’s charismatic persona as a diplomatic tool:

  “Having this rakish cachet and a bit of celebrity gives him a certain power. He can't be ignored or declared persona non grata...”
  —Walter Isaacson (40:17)

• Managing and leveraging alliances, even when trust wavers:

  “Franklin just leads this fun life in Passy...It's weirdly a nest of spies...but [he] says, I've learned that even if my valet is a spy, to act the same way because I'll just do things that I don't care if they get exposed.”
  —Walter Isaacson (37:09)

8. The Adams Rivalry and Making the Peace

• A dynamic of tension and balance with John Adams:

  “Franklin, just by his nature, is too accommodating...Adams is not a deal maker...Franklin's more willing to make a deal...So I guess that combination works well.”
  —Walter Isaacson (41:10)

• Franklin’s diplomatic independence due to slow 18th-century communications:

  “That's why diplomacy was so much more important back then...Franklin has quite a bit of leeway.”
  —Walter Isaacson (42:34)

• Securing the French alliance, America’s war hinging on this success:

  “Without France, we could not have won the Revolution. They supply most of the munitions...it's their navy...that made it possible for the United States...to triumph militarily.”
  —Walter Isaacson (44:40)

• Smoothing over diplomatic flare-ups: Franklin’s rhetorical and personal skills enable him to repair and maintain vital relationships, even after breaking protocol.

  “Franklin writes the most soothing diplomatic letter blaming it on himself, saying, yes, I'm so sorry, but our love for France and our gratitude, whatever...he has...the temerity to ask for another loan from France.”
  —Walter Isaacson (46:15)

9. Essential Legacy: The Glue of Democracy

• Franklin is sometimes overlooked as a secondary figure, but Isaacson insists:

  “He was both the glue that held people together and the thread that tied our progress.”
  —Walter Isaacson (47:39)

• Franklin’s lesson on compromise:

  “Always in favor of compromise...but the big moral challenge...is knowing when to compromise and when to stand true to principle.”
  —Walter Isaacson (48:24)

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Memorable Quotes

• “Franklin tells William he's going to be on the side of the revolution and that William should resign his governorship. And William doesn't. ...it’s a rift that never gets repaired.”
  —Walter Isaacson (02:44)
• “Your slightest indiscretions will be magnified into crimes in order to sensibly wound and afflict me.”
  —Franklin letter, cited by Isaacson (09:06)
• “Jefferson writes...‘we hold these truths to be sacred.’ And Franklin...takes it out and writes ‘self evident.’”
  —Walter Isaacson (20:49)
• “Yes, we all must hang together, or surely we’ll all hang separately.”
  —Benjamin Franklin, cited by Isaacson (25:26)
• “He wears, instead of a wig, he wears this backwoods fur cap...He just totally wins over the French people.”
  —Walter Isaacson (35:34)
• “Without France, we could not have won the Revolution.”
  —Walter Isaacson (44:40)
• “He was both the glue that held people together and the thread that tied our progress.”
  —Walter Isaacson (47:39)
• “The big moral challenge in life is knowing when to compromise and when to stand true to principle.”
  —Walter Isaacson (48:24)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Franklin and his son, William – the irreparable family schism: 02:44–03:45
• Franklin’s transition to activist and the Penn family fight: 04:58–06:32
• Franklin in London – lessons, humiliation, and failed compromise: 06:44–12:24
• Shift to revolutionary zeal, and the role in publishing 'Common Sense': 13:04–13:45
• Editing the Declaration of Independence: 20:49–23:36
• The symbolism of ‘Join, or Die’ and the Revolutionary snake: 25:59–26:46
• Franklin’s mission to France and his cultivated Persona: 33:39–36:26
• Life at Passy, relationships, and the Adams rivalry: 37:03–41:10
• Diplomatic practices and winning over the French: 42:11–44:35
• Franklin’s indispensable legacy and the art of compromise: 47:39–48:24

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Notable Moments and Tone

• The episode’s tone is conversational, often witty, and underscores the blend of pragmatism, idealism, and subtle humor that defined Franklin’s political and personal approach.
• Isaacson and Ratliff emphasize Franklin’s gift for compromise, his foresight in editing “sacred” to “self-evident,” and his genius in using fashion and persona as diplomatic tools.
• The human side of Franklin is well illustrated—his rifts, passions, pragmatism, and capacity for reinvention—even in old age.
• The show closes with a reflection on Franklin’s moral complexity and a teaser for the next episode, discussing how Franklin navigated personal and national reckonings.

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Conclusion

This episode positions Benjamin Franklin not simply as a founding icon but as the essential, adaptable diplomatic force who connected people, inspired revolutionary ideals, and made the American experiment possible—reminding listeners of both the personal costs and the collaborative spirit at the heart of democracy. Isaacson leaves listeners with the enduring lesson that democracy is not about unchecked passion but about “pulling things together” with pragmatism, compromise, and principle.

Transcript

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

This is an iheart podcast. The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Sacred Scandal is back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season she's telling her story.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Martial Macel, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Surviving meant hiding. Escaping took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to Sacred the Many secrets of Martial maciel on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Five, six white people pushed me in the car. I'm going, what the hell?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Basically your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. All you gotta do is receive the package. Don't have to open it, just accept it. She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to the Chinatown sting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts. Hey guys, it's Stephanie, Beatriz and Melissa Fumero. And this is more better. We are jumping right in and ready to hear from you, your thoughts, your questions, your feelings about socks with sandals. And we're ready to share some possibly questionable advice. And hot takes. God, that sucks so hard though. I'm so sorry. Can you out pet. Can you match their pettiness for funsies? Yeah, all the things. Because aren't we all trying to get a little more better? Listen to more better on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Kaleidoscope.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Before he declared he was going to be for independence, Franklin wanted to have a meeting with his. So William, who's the royal governor of New Jersey by this point, and Franklin goes and they Meet in a manor house halfway in between Philadelphia and where William was in New Jersey. And they have a very long and tough night. And Benjamin Franklin tells William he's going to be on the side of the revolution and that William should resign his governorship. And William doesn't. And I think he was dismayed that his son had not only become a royal governor and a loyalist, but was loving the perks of power. And it's a rift that never gets repaired.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

In many ways, Benjamin Franklin was an unlikely revolutionary. Franklin was someone who always tried to mend fences rather than tear them down. Through his work as an experimental scientist, a writer and a businessman, he was always problem solving, looking for the most practical solution. But his penchant for compromise was challenged during the Revolution when his adopted hometown of Philadelphia became a hotbed of anti colonial fervor. Still, Franklin was a man of his times, ready to meet the moment. But what's surprising is how much of the work he did on behalf of America was actually done abroad. In this episode of On Benjamin Franklin, Walter Isaacson paints the picture of Franklin the diplomat and how his genius as a statesman may be one of his most underappreciated legacies. Let's talk about Benjamin Franklin and his early work as a founding father. When does Franklin move from being this civic minded businessman hanging out with the leather apron club to really diving into politics?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

When he retires in his early 40s and gets interested in science, he also gets interested in politics in a larger scale. He believes that we have to all work together in the various colonies to stave off threats. And so he takes that notion of civic associations implies it on a more colonial level, helping fund George Washington and others fighting the French and Indian War. And so Franklin is trying to work out a system where instead of just voluntary associations, we now have to tax ourselves. We now have to govern ourselves. He was a leader in the colonial assembly in Pennsylvania and of the faction that was trying to oppose the Penn family, because the different colonies had different ways of governance. Some were crown colonies directly ruled by the king, but some were proprietors, like the Penn family, who had the right to govern Pennsylvania to some extent. They had a charter, and it was unclear whether they could tax the people in Pennsylvania and refused to pay taxes themselves, which is indeed what was happening. And so that gets him involved in the things that lead us to a revolution, whether it's the import duties, the stamp acts, taxation without representation. But Franklin's first mission is simply to loosen the power of the Penn family.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Franklin gets selected by the assembly to represent Pennsylvania in London as their agent to the crown. And he's animated by the challenge, but he's also excited by the energy of this bustling city.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Although Philadelphia in the 1750s was the largest city in America, it had only 23,000 inhabitants. It was just a few dusty streets and a market street, Whereas London was 30 times the size of. With a quarter of a million inhabitants and growing really fast. London was the largest city in Europe and second only to Beijing in the world. But it was cramped, it was dirty, it was filled with disease and prostitutes and crime. More importantly, it was stratified into an upper class of titled aristocrats and a lower class of impoverished workers. What Franklin does is, as he did in America, was gravitate to what was becoming a burgeoning middle class, a middle class of tradesmen and artisans. When he gets back to London for the first time, he goes back to the print shop where he worked as a young printer, and he buys beer for everybody there. The fashionable aristocrats in London, they were growing up a lot of clubs such as Whites and Brooks and Boodles. Franklin didn't feel comfortable there. But there was for the burgeoning new class of writers and journalists and professionals and intellectuals, There were coffee shops which provided newspapers and tables where you could sit all afternoon with friends and discuss current events. And that's where Franklin gravitated, certainly both with his middle class and intellectual friends, but also people who cared about politics. Locke, Berkeley, Hume had created an Enlightenment mindset that you saw in London and also in Paris. And not surprisingly, those become the two cities Franklin loves the most besides Philadelphia. Now, there were those who were more disposed to American rights, and Franklin becomes close to a lot of them, especially the Whigs. But there are those in the governing party who consider him dangerous, as indeed he was to their control.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And so there's this class of people who are clearly suspicious of Ben Franklin. Does he have to be careful about what he says or does?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Franklin understood the new media age of his time and how there could be scandals and people could write scurrilous things. And in the 1760s, he writes a letter to his daughter and says, your slightest indiscretions will be magnified into crimes in order to sensibly wound and afflict me. In other words, he had become such a celebrity, he knew that his enemies would be publishing stories about his family as a way to take them down.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And that's even something that you might not realize today if you think of Franklin as how famous he was for his scientific Experiments and famous as a founder, but that if you're going to be that famous, you will also generate enemies.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Franklin tried very hard not to generate enemies. This was a very passionate period, the time leading up to a revolution, of course, and whether it was the Penn family or there was a family of Lees up in Massachusetts, he developed enemies of people who either were loyal to the Crown or were loyal to the proprietors. And he tended his reputation very well. But when he did make enemies, they were pretty strong enemies.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Now, did he have revolutionary notions at that time?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Franklin was very much a believer in the beauty of the British Empire. He was very loyal to the concept of American and people in England all being part of this great empire. He called it a noble vase, and once it got broken, it wouldn't be put back together. So as the colonial agent in London, his first mission is try to prevent a revolution. Near the end, he comes up with the plan that the colonial assemblies are just like Parliament. They're all subject to the King, but they make their own taxes and do their own governance, and it's sort of what we now have in the Commonwealth. Had his plan succeeded, the US Would be like Canada. He got very close, and had the Whigs stayed in power in England, he may have been able to work out this Commonwealth relationship. But he gets humiliated by the ministers there.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Describe a little bit how that humiliation came about.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

At one point, when he keeps presenting petitions to the ministers, he gets embroiled in some controversy over leaking some letters, which he did. But the most important thing is he gets called before a hearing of Parliament in what's called the cockpit. He's wearing this velvet coat, and he gets prosecuted, and he doesn't say a word as they keep attacking him and attacking him. And this is the beginning of his realization that, no, this is not going to work. And the interesting thing is that years later, when he ends up at the end of the revolution, negotiating both the alliance with France and then the peace treaty with England, when he signs it, he puts that same coat back on, and he asks why. And he says to give it a little revenge, because he remembers that day in the cockpit.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

So it feels like he's still learning as a diplomat right now, still figuring out how to maneuver in this new position.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Right. One of Franklin's problems as an agent in England is he was too accommodating. He tried too hard to get a solution. He hasn't fervently fought the Stamp act. And when he gets back to America, there's a backlash. So he has to scramble. And in a way that pushes him towards the side of becoming more revolutionary because he realizes that he's lost touch with the anti taxation, anti British sentiments that had welled up in America.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

But in a way, he quickly finds his footing because he actually prints one of the more incendiary pamphlets.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah, one of the great spurs to revolution in early 1776 was an anonymous pamphlet called Common Sense. It turned out it was written by Thomas Paine, but people didn't know that it was anonymous and some people thought that Franklin had written it. It was a huge success. I think it sold more than 100,000 copies. Even though Franklin wasn't the author, he had an indirect hand in it because he was the one who had helped bring Thomas Paine over from England as a cheeky young hope to be printer and helped get Common Sense published. So Franklin is bequeathing to a new generation that notion of being a pamphleteer being published. And that helps bring us closer to revolution.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

More on that right after a quick break.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

All I know is what I've been told. And that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

I did not know her and I.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

That y' all said.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

From Lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life Built on devotion and deception, a man of God Marcial Maciel looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

My name is Elena Sada, and this is is my story. It's the story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Sacred the Many secrets of Marcial Maciel as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get her podcasts.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

We had 30 agents ready to go.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Shotguns and rifles, and you name it.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

But what they find is not what they expected.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said, yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who they dare to betray.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to the Chinatown sting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for, like, hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Ciara Teller Ornelas, who, with Rutherford Falls, became the first Native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Let's talk about the revolution. When the first shots were fired in April 1775, Benjamin Franklin wasn't back from London yet. He arrives just a few weeks later.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

What's the scene like in 1775, about half the people in the colonies felt loyal to the crown, and about half were starting to well up with a sense that we were going to have a revolution. When he finally returns to Philadelphia, he's greeted by cheering throngs. But there's a question. Will he really cast his lot on the side of revolution?

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Did the fact that Franklin's son was a royal governor and that he broke with him over independence, did that lend Franklin more credibility among the revolutionaries? Or did it end up casting suspicion on him that he might still have royal inclinations?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah, well, Franklin's rivals and enemies treated him with some suspicion. But one thing that happens is George Washington ends up finally winning in New Jersey. And William is arrested. And it becomes a question whether Benjamin Franklin will urge that his son be paroled or whatever. And no, he doesn't. He lets his son be arrested and imprisoned in Connecticut. And I think it's because Benjamin Franklin wanted to make it clear he didn't have divided loyalties. His new loyalties were with the new country and not with his son, the royal governor.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And so, in 1776, as a full fledged revolutionary, Benjamin Franklin joins the Continental Congress.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

One of the things that happens is the Continental Congress decides, well, if we're going to have a revolution for independence, we have to write a declaration explaining why we're doing this. And so the Continental Congress appoints a committee. May have been the last time Congress appointed a great committee, but on it are Benjamin Franklin, of course, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. And Jefferson gets to write the first draft, even though he's, like, really young, I think 31 or so, because he's the best writer, he's more passionate. And he sends it to Franklin for editing. And it's a wonderful letter. He writes. They're all living in Philadelphia, where the Congress is meeting, he said, with the good Dr. Franklin and all of his wisdom. Look over this document and see what improvements it could make. And it's like, people were really nice to editors back then. And you see one of the most amazing documents in American history is not just the Declaration, but the first draft of the Declaration that's in the Library of Congress. And you look at the most famous, most brilliant sentence ever written by human hand, the one that begins, we hold these truths. And there's Jefferson's first draft. We hold these truths to be sacred. And Franklin, with the dark black backslashes a printer uses to cross something out, takes it out and writes self evident and explains, we're trying to create a new type of nation in which our rights come not from the dictates of religion, but from rationality and reason. And the sentence goes on, and there's John Adams's handwriting when they say, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. So just in the writing of one half of one sentence, you can see our founders doing this balance between the role of divine providence and the role of rationality and reason in securing our rights as individuals and our governance as a nation.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

I feel you can also see there all of what you've already discussed about Franklin's inclination towards collaboration and compromise happening around that document.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Right. What Franklin realizes is that there are balances you have to put in. And even in that part of a sentence, you have a balance. It's not all divine right gives us this, and it's not all just pure rationality. There's a certain balance that we strike when we're figuring out our role as a nation.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Let's talk about self evident, because I want to make sure we don't gloss over that, the importance of self evident. What was the significance of the phrase.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

When Jefferson writes, we hold these truths to be sacred, and then Franklin edits it to be self evident? He's partly talking about the role of rationality, but he also got that phrase from his close friend David Hume, the world's greatest philosopher at the time. Franklin actually stayed at the home of David Hume. You know, he met Adam Smith, he read the wealth of nations before it was published. So Franklin has soaked all this up. And David Hume had come up with this idea that there were certain truths that were just self evident.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And the issue with sacred was. I mean, I don't know how much he explicated this then or later, but would the issue with sacred be that anyone could make a claim on sacred if it had a religious tinge to it?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Most governments up until that point derive their authority from an appeal to divinity. The divine right of kings being the most famous example. And the grace of God explained where the power came from. There was something totally new that was beginning with the Declaration and culminates with the Constitution, which is, no, the power is not divinely given. It's something that comes from we the people. And I think Franklin was saying, we don't want to premise our basic beliefs that all men are created equal. They're endowed with certain inalienable rights. We don't want to premise this on coming from theology. No, it comes from certain self Evident truths.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And then we get this moment, this most famous moment of John Hancock saying, there must be no pulling in different ways.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

When they're signing the Declaration. John Hancock, of course, does it with the famous flourish. And he says, we must not all go our separate ways. We have to hang together. And Franklin, that's the theme of his life, that we have to all intertwine. We have to all hold hands. And he says a famous funny line, which is, yes, we all must hang together, or surely we'll all hang separately. And so this notion of working collegially and in tandem to assert our rights that begins with the Declaration, then culminates with the Constitution.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

There was one smaller moment that just really struck me in the way that Franklin shows up and influences so many different aspects of American life. And it's the Don't Tread on Me flag that he also happens to be the person who saw that flag and brought it in to be a more official flag of the revolution.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah. It was part of Franklin's genius of sort of knowing how to visually convey information, how a Join or Die cartoon of a snake being cut up, how these visual things can have an impact.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

He loved a snake. He's got the snake in Join or Die. There's the Don't Tread on Me snake. And he has a whole philosophy about why the snake is the right symbol.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

It doesn't strike first, but when it strikes, it strikes. Yes, right, exactly. Another snake that's interesting that we have to deal with today is one of Franklin's sort of friends, but occasional opponents, a guy named Elbert Gehry, who didn't really believe in a pure democracy. He felt that the rabble shouldn't be allowed to rule too much. And among other things that he creates is his congressional district that looks like a snake. And it gets called a gerrymander. Nowadays, we pronounce it gerrymander based on Elbert Gehry doing that snake, like district. And Franklin thought that was a bit appalling.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

One snake that he didn't care for.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

So after the Declaration of Independence, I feel like he could have hung up his spurs. He's in his 70s by this point. He keeps taking on assignments to go places and do things, no matter the danger.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

I mean, he's hitting 70, which is back then considered retirement age.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

But they give him another mission, which is, we just declared a revolution, and we needed the munitions, we needed the navy. And so they send Franklin off to France to try to form an alliance in which the French would come in on our side on the Revolution.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, you describe it as the most dangerous, complex and fascinating of all of his public missions.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

It's a very treacherous voyage, especially during wartime. But Franklin, both out of a sense of duty, but also, I think, out of a personal sense of adventure, wanting to be relevant. He's there sailing across the ocean, pushing himself in a somewhat courageous way when he could have been sitting back at home in his new house that he had built in Philadelphia.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

After the break, we dive into Franklin's adventures in France and how the savvy diplomat charmed the nation in between playing chess with his mistress.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

I did not know her and I.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

That y' all said.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her from lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor. As Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him, even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret scandal, the many secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

We had 30 agents ready to go.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

With shotguns and rifles, and you name it.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

But what they find is not what they expected.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said, yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for, like, 25 years.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who. Who they dare to betray.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to the Chinatown sting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Ciara Teller Ornelas, who, with Rutherford Falls, became the first Native showrunner in television history. On the podcast Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story along with with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

On December 3, 1776, Ben Franklin arrives in France with an enormous diplomatic challenge ahead of him. He's come to woo the French, to get them to support the American side, because like the other founding fathers, he knows that without France's help, the revolutionaries have no chance of winning the war.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

It is very difficult to get France in on our side in the revolution. I mean, to put it mildly, the king of France wasn't so much in favor of revolutions against royal rule, but France has its own interests, and Franklin is brilliant at both playing to the national interests of France and the national ideals. So he gets to France and he plays this balance of power game, saying France and Spain, the Bourbon packed nations, along with the Netherlands, have For more than 400 years, years been fighting off and on with England. And if they come in with us on our side in the revolution is going to help the balance of power. It'll help them keep the colonies, like in the Caribbean, et cetera. But he also plays an idealistic game. When he gets there, he has a printing press and he prints the documents coming out of America, like the Declaration of Independence or the Rights of Virginia. And he realizes that in France is welling up this notion of liberty, equality, fraternity, and he wants to play to that as well.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

But as we mentioned in an earlier episode, when Benjamin Franklin gets to France, he's a bit of a rock star. He's older and widowed by now, but he's a celebrity. Crowds are waiting at the docks to catch a glimpse of the guy who invented the lightning rod. He's carried to the steps of the Academy of Sciences in Paris to hug Voltaire. And he's dressed in a ridiculous fashion with a specific purpose in mind.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

When Franklin gets to France, he continues to portray himself in ways that'll be useful. And he knows that the French have read Rousseau perhaps once too often, and they worship the backwoods philosopher, the natural man. And so Franklin gets to France and. And he wears, instead of a wig, he wears this backwoods fur cap. And so soon in Paris, the women are wearing cafeurs a la Franklin. I mean, their hairdo is done as if it's a wool cap. And he just totally wins over the French people, which he realizes, besides playing to his vanity, helps him win over the French government, The French foreign minister and others, they know how popular America and Franklin is.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Well, that's. I mean, it's such a masterful PR move for him to portray himself as this sort of Davy Crockett, who's actually never been out on the frontier fighting the fight.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah, Franklin was not a backwoods, natural wilderness philosopher. He had lived in the heart of Boston. He lived on Market street, and he lived on Craven street in London. He had barely been to the backwoods on one trip to Canada, where he's representing the Pennsylvania assembly, trying to figure out its defenses. He buy a fur cap, and it certainly wins the French over.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

I want to talk about his life outside of Paris or in the suburbs of Paris. It's very striking.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah, it's Passy, which is a suburb of Paris. It's A nice manor house. It's used as the American colonial or then the United States outpost there. So John Adams is there for a while when he's an agent. Jefferson, of course, comes over at some point, but it's weirdly a nest of spies. There's a guy, Edward Bancroft, who's working there, who's a total spy on Franklin and reading his letters. But Franklin says, I've learned that even if my valet is a spy, to act the same way because I'll just do things that I don't care if they get exposed. Which wasn't totally good because Bancroft was effective at knowing what ships were going over. But Franklin just leads this fun life in Posse.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

He's a man who rejects pretension in all ways. When he's younger and throughout his life, he represents the rejection of pretension, but also, it seems like he likes a little bit of the high life.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Well, I mean, it is true that all people who reject pretension so don't really mind having a good bottle of wine now and then. And certainly he was in that category, love Madeira. And yes, he never puts on royal airs, but he does live pretty well. And of course, he loves the adulation. He has two, what he calls mistresses there. And at this point, as I say, he's in his 70s, so they're not purely romantic. But Madame Briand, Madame Helvetius he's flirting with. He's having salons, he has them over. So he loves leading the good life in Paris and even playing chess while he's in the bathtub with one of his mistresses. But he also makes fun about how his relationship won't get too far, even though he dreams of it, that type of thing.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And describe this environment, this estate that he's living on.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

John Adams is also there, and they're a bit like oil and water. Franklin said he learned French by writing bagatelles to his French girlfriends, whereas John Adams learned French by memorizing funeral orations. And Adams think that Franklin's having too much fun with Madame Helvetius and Madame Briand and others.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Yeah, there's a little bit of pearl clutching by John Adams when he arrives onto the scene.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Oh, John Adams rivalry with Franklin is the stuff of lore. He's always very jealous. John Adams thought that he had written the founding document of America, which was a resolution earlier in 1776 to break away the assemblies from parliamentary power. And he's upset that Jefferson and then Franklin are given credit. He says, everybody's gonna think it's just Franklin who's always doing these things. But he also comes to be a grudging admirer of Franklin.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And how does Franklin mix this sort of social and political. Like, it seems like he's having fun, but there's a method to it.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Yeah, I think that especially his appearance with Voltaire when they hug on the steps of the academy, or his way of being part of the salons both of Paris and Passy. He realizes, as others after him did, that having this rakish cachet and a bit of celebrity gives him a certain power. He can't be ignored or declared Persona non grata the way they did with John Adams.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And is the rivalry between Adams and Franklin in this time? I mean, is there a way in which they're driving each other? Like they have different outlooks to a certain extent, on how this diplomacy should be taking place? Adams doesn't always like how Franklin's doing it, but is it the combination of them that makes it happen? Or is Adams kind of an impediment to Franklin's plans?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Early on, before the revolution was in full force, Adams and Franklin travel together to go meet the commander of the British forces on Staten Island. And it's that scene where they have to share a bedroom and they argue about the common cold and the freshness of air. But they send Adams along because they think Franklin, just by his nature, is too accommodating. You send him there, you'll find some deal to be made. Whereas Adams is not a deal maker. And that continues all the way through the great. Because Adams feels Franklin's too accommodating to the French. He gives away too much. He wants to be liked too much. And this is why the French like Franklin. They don't like Adams, but it's useful for them to be there. And then the next round is when they have to negotiate the treaty that ends the war, the treaty with England. And once again, Adams is a hardliner, and Franklin's more willing to make a deal. So I guess that combination works well.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

And how is the communication happening? I mean, these days, no diplomat is operating anywhere in the world without constant communication with the people who have dispatched that diplomat there. But it takes a month to even get there. The letters are going to be slow. How much is Franklin freelancing? And he can do whatever he wants versus he's tethered to the desires of the Continental Congress.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

That's why diplomacy was so much more important back then, because you couldn't have detailed instructions being cabled to you every hour. You had to wait A month or so. And so when it comes to doing both the treaty of alliance with France and then the treaty that ends a war with Britain, Franklin has quite a bit of leeway. And there are some disputes later where he may have conceded too much on fishing rights or something, but it was a time when diplomats had to figure out for themselves, being genius, about how to get things done.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

So how does Franklin ultimately sway the French to join the war and pull off this feat?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

At first, Verjean, who is a French foreign minister and certainly the king, resisted. They want to help America but not have to take blame for it. But then Franklin was more successful than he could have imagined, getting a full fledged treaty of alliance, and then even people like Lafayette being sent over, who becomes an indispensable commander. In addition to getting Lafayette to come over, of course, there's a famous John Paul Jones who becomes supplied by France, and his ship is called the Bonhomme Richard. And that's because it's named after poor Richard of Poor Richard's Almanac. I think that you rarely have seen in history a blending of idealism and realism that are twined together the way Franklin did. In other words, with his public diplomacy and public Persona winning over the hearts and minds of a French people who believed in liberty and equality and fraternity. There have been other great diplomatic triumphs, but not ones that depended equally on both realism and idealism.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

So why was obtaining this French alliance so crucial?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Without France, we could not have won the Revolution. They supply most of the munitions, the arms, the gunpowder, and then, more importantly, it's their navy, which has blockaded the coast so that, you know, when Washington finally wins a few victories, they can't be reinforced. So by getting France in on our side, it basically made it possible for the United States, as it was then calling itself, to triumph militarily rather than come to a stalemate.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

It does feel like there are many accounts of the Revolution and many accounts of the founding fathers, and Franklin can end up being a little bit pushed aside as this sort of compromiser, maybe, or as the person on the sidelines who wasn't quite the action man that some of these other founders were.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Franklin played the role of bringing people together, not being the point person, not being Samuel Adams or being the most aggressive person. But that role of pulling people together was essential. If you're gonna create a democracy, it's not gonna be driven by passionate leaders. It's going to be we the people trying to pull things together.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

When it comes to trying to create the treaty, they'll end the war. There's this question about whether it's going to be between the three nations or one emerging nation, United States, France and England, or it's going to be direct between the US And England. And that feels like another place where Franklin and Adams come into conflict. And there's a question about Franklin being too accommodating.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

One of the agreements the United States had made with France and part of the Treaty of Alliance, was that it would not negotiate a totally separate peace with England without keeping France both informed and consulted. And Franklin is very good at keeping the French foreign minister in the loop on all the negotiations. Initially, this is virgin, the French foreign minister. But at a certain point, Franklin floats some ideas with his English friends. They come to an agreement of what the framework of a deal for peace would look like. And he hasn't fully consulted Verjean. So when the deal happens, the French are upset, the foreign minister is upset, and Franklin writes the most soothing diplomatic letter blaming it on himself, saying, yes, I'm so sorry, but our love for France and our gratitude, whatever. And by the end of that discussion, he has a temerity to ask for another loan from France. But he's been able to smooth it over with the French foreign minister and the king.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

It almost feels like by that point, he's again just deploying this public Persona. Both his ability to write, obviously, but also, it's just you can't be mad at Franklin very long. He always seems to have a plan that he thinks can solve the dispute.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Benjamin Franklin was the only one of the founders who was involved in all four of the great founding documents of America. The Declaration, the Treaty of alliance with France, the treaty that ends a war with Great Britain, and then the Constitution. Even though he's not seen as a George 1, Washington as indispensable or passionate the way Jefferson was. He was both the glue that held people together and the thread that tied our progress.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

In the final episode, we discuss Ben Franklin's legacy, the scientific trick he used to keep the Constitutional Convention on track. And we hear about his personal ledger and the ways he tried to right his wrongs.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Franklin always was in favor of compromise, but. But the big moral challenge in life is knowing when to compromise and when to stand true to principle. And he realizes they shouldn't have compromised on the issue of slavery.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

That's next week on Benjamin Franklin. This show is based on the writing and research of Walter Isaacson. It's hosted by me, Evan Ratliff. Produced, mixed and sound designed by Anna Rubinova. Adam Bozarth is our Consulting producer. Lizzie Jacobs is our editor. Social Media by Dara Potts the show was engineered at CDM Sound Studios from iHeart Podcast. The executive producers are Katrina Norvell and Ally Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by Mangesha Tigador with an assist from Oz Volition, Costas Linos and Kate Osborne. Special thanks to Amanda Urban, Bob Pittman, Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, Nikki Etor, Kerry Lieberman, Nathan Ottoman and Ali Gavin. And if you like podcasts about inventions, what they mean for humanity, check out my other show, Shell Game, about how it created an AI clone and set it loose on the world. It's at Shell Game Co. And for more shows from Kaleidoscope, be sure to visit Kaleidoscope NYC. Thanks so much for listening.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Sacred Scandal is Back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Alena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season she's telling her story.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia Almaser, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Evan Ratliff or a similar podcast host)]

Surviving meant hiding. Escaping, took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Martial Maciel on the iHeartrade radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Five, six white people pushed me in the car. I'm going, what the hell?

[Historian / Expert (possibly Walter Isaacson or a similar historian)]

Basically your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. All you gotta do is receive the package. Don't have to open it, just accept it. She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Podcast Host / Narrator]

Listen to the Chinatown sting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts hey, guys, it's Stephanie, Beatriz and Melissa Fumaro. And this is More Better. We are jumping right in and ready to hear from you, your thoughts, your questions, your feelings about socks with sandals. And we're ready to share some possibly questionable advice and hot takes. God, that sucks so hard, though. I'm so sorry. Can you out petty them? Can you match their pettiness for funsies? Yeah, all the things. Because aren't we all trying to get a little more better? Listen to More better on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.