B (2:56)

It's so wonderful to be here.

A (2:57)

Jay, congratulations on being here.

B (2:59)

Thank you.

A (3:00)

I love the topic. I'm so glad that you zeroed in on it. I actually believe that self doubt is without a doubt, one of the biggest issues in the world today at an individual, personal level. And the reason why so many people don't go after their dreams, don't go after the career they want, don't go after the person they want to be with, don't go after a promotion, don't go after a connection, a friendship, because we are scared of how we'll be perceived. And the reason why I'm so happy we're talking about this subject and that you've dedicated your book to it, is because I often think about what my life would look like if I had listened to my self doubt. And I think people think that people who've had some success in their career don't feel self doubt. And I would say I felt self doubt before I started, I felt self doubt during it. And because I still think about the beginning, I still feel self doubt today. But I know what to do with it. And your book gives us a brilliant method. So I want to start off by asking you, if someone was to listen to our podcast today, what would they overcome and what skills would they build?

B (4:10)

So this is essentially going to be a masterclass on self doubt, but not only what it is actually determining for yourself, what are the drivers of your self doubt? Because we think self doubt is just one big blob of worry and anxiety and insecurity. But when we look at decades worth of literature, my own research over the past five years, we've distilled it down to four main drivers. And so if you're able to determine, okay, where am I on these drivers? Which one is really propelling my self doubt, that allows you to then determine what you need to do to move through it. As you said, self doubt doesn't necessarily disappear with achievement. It doesn't disappear as you advance in your career. It just scales with responsibility. But the real measure of someone's success and happiness is if they can hear the voice of self doubt and still move forward anyway. And so what I want to help everyone listening with today is to determine which of the drivers of their self doubt is taking the driver's seat and then exactly what they need to do to move through it so they can get the connection they want, the success they want, the performance that they want, and create the life that they want.

A (5:14)

I love it. Let's talk about the four drivers, because I'm fascinated now as well to.

B (5:17)

Let's do it.

A (5:18)

To discover which ones I've been dealing with.

B (5:20)

We can actually diagnose your doubt profile.

A (5:22)

Yeah, let's dive in.

B (5:23)

So the first thing we need to do is rewind a little bit. How did we come across these four drivers? So we've been working with leaders and teams across organizations for the last five to 10 years. That. That's tens of thousands of people. And we found that again, no matter where someone was at on their journey, they were hearing this voice of doubt and it would sound different and it would look different. But then we wanted to know, okay, specifically what is driving this? And we need to bring it back to something called your self image. Let me tell you about a study that was conducted in the 70s, and it opens your mind as to the power of the self image that we have about ourselves and how that keeps repeating throughout our lives. So in the 1970s, a psychology professor by the name of Robert Kleck from Dartmouth, he conducted this fascinating experiment where he brought people together, he split them into groups, and with one group, he drew a scar on their face from their right ear to the side of their mouth. Big, ugly scar. And he let them see themselves in a hand mirror. Then he sends the groups out to have conversation with strangers. Right. So you have one group that has this scar. Another group has no scar. After the conversations, they come back and they report on how they felt the conversation went. The group with the scar overwhelmingly reported that they felt judged. It was tense. The other person was distant because of the scar. But here is where it gets really interesting. If we rewind just a little bit. Right before the researcher sent them out into these conversations, he applied moisturizing cream to the scar. So they just seen themselves in the mirror. He then applies his cream, but he doesn't tell them that he's removing the scar.

A (6:58)

Wow.

B (6:59)

So now they have no scar on their face, but they believe that they do. They go into these conversations believing, expecting they will be treated badly, poorly judged, and that's what they experience.

A (7:12)

Wow.

B (7:13)

It's wild when you think about the implications for us in our lives. Okay. It may not be a physical scar, but we all have beliefs or expectations about ourselves based on how we see ourselves, our self image. And then we're going to notice things that reinforce it because of how the brain is wired, confirmation bias, selective attention. Your brain is wired to magnify what you focus on. So if you're going into your life, into your conversations, into your meetings, into your work, believing that you're not worthy, that you're not capable, that you don't deserve it, you're going to notice things that reinforce that and it's only going to make you feel worse. So we know that about self image. So the first question to ask ourselves is, what are these invisible scars that we are carrying throughout our lives? How can we become more aware of them? So then my next question is, great, so that's the power of self image. And self image drives our self doubt. But how do you measure self image? If I were to ask you, Jay, what do you think your self image is? You might share something and then I'd ask someone else, what do you think your self image is? And they might share something else. We need to determine if something is measurable so we can determine what it is. And when we look at over 50 years worth of research, this is when we find that, yes, there's a lot of information out there, but it really comes down to just four dimensions of how we see ourselves. And when these four things come together, that shapes our self image. It shapes how we interact with the world. Not only that, these four things that actually have their base in our personality, they have been shown through meta analyses of over 100 studies to predict our success, our job performance, our career satisfaction, how happy we are in our life and our relationships. And it all comes down to these four things. And I could not believe it when I came across it. So let me tell you what these four things are, because essentially these four things drive our self image, which then drives our self doubt, which when they're weak. So the very, very first one, the first driver of your self doubt which shapes your self image is what we call acceptance, self acceptance. It relates to this personality trait of self esteem. So how you see yourself in terms of your value and your worth. Now, if you don't accept yourself, it shows up in four painfully familiar habits. The first one is what we call the pressure to prove. You feel like you constantly have to prove yourself through your work, through your performance, you have to prove that you are of value to other people. So you seek their validation and their praise. And when you don't get it, it becomes this automatic switch and you need to win it back. That's the first. The second one is what we call the shrinking syndrome. So this is where someone might Be afraid of success because they don't accept who they are. And therefore they're afraid of what will happen if something amazing happens to them because deep down they don't feel like they deserve it. So then they try and sabotage before they get there. The third is what we call the Schadenfreude cycle. And the Schadenfreude cycle, you may have heard of it, it's a German term. It's that moment when you see someone else fail and you suddenly feel really good about yourself. You feel a little bit better about yourself. You enjoy other people's failures. This is a sign that you do not accept yourself. Wow, your self esteem is suffering. And then the fourth pattern that we see here is of course, that endless need for approval. We need other people to like us, to validate us. We might become codependent in our relationships. We say yes when we really want to say no. We wear masks and contort ourselves to better suit the people around us. But in doing so, we lose ourselves. We. So that is the first and the, in my view, the most foundational acceptance.

A (10:59)

And as I'm learning about it from you, it feels like that starts so early and you're just carrying it for all these years. And then you become aware of it when you're starting to apply for a job, or you're wanting to put yourself forward for a promotion, or you're trying to find the relationship of your dreams. And all of a sudden now you're like, well, why do I feel this way? And I can imagine a lot of our listeners right now are sitting here going, sade, I do all of those four things.

B (11:26)

That's me.

A (11:27)

Yeah, that's me. And so if someone's listening right now and they're saying, sade J, that's me, I do all four of those things. I have no idea. Do I have to stop doing those things? Do I have to? So I self acceptance, that is the issue that I'm having. I don't accept myself. According to your four measures, where do I even begin to go? What questions should I be asking from that point?

B (11:49)

So I love how you mentioned that we develop this early in life. Let's start there and then we'll go to how we can start to break the, the attachment that we have to this. So generally, this sense of acceptance that we have develops in the first three to four years. Initially, it's based on the response we get from our parents, our primary caregivers. And then it also develops based on whether we feel that we get the emotional support and the nurturing that we need. If you feel like you constantly have to earn your parents attention or do something exciting to get them to pay attention to you, then we develop this belief that I must perform to be worthy. It can also happen later in life when a parent says to you or compares your report card, your grades to a sibling, or makes you feel like you're only of value when you're winning an award or coming first in the swimming competition, that you're in the race. So we develop these really early on and you know, we do need to acknowledge so much of who we are as a result of those early experiences. That doesn't mean we are a prisoner to that and it doesn't mean that we should be blaming that environment and our parents and our, you know, the caregivers that we had, we need to acknowledge that they were doing the best that they could with what they knew at the time. We have this beautiful ability of taking ownership of our lives, which actually comes down to the third pillar which we'll get to, which allows us to, as you said, become aware of these patterns so often. Jay and if you're listening, you may find that you have not been aware of these things. And it's only when you listen to sessions like this, conversations like this, when you read a book where you suddenly start to almost self diagnose and realize, oh, this is me, see that as a really positive thing because you're identifying that you are part of this experience as opposed to just this is who I am. So that's a really positive thing. So what do we do if we identify? Okay, I'm really struggling with acceptance. The very first thing is to acknowledge that you are not your thoughts and you are not your beliefs. Beliefs are simply just a repeated pattern of thought that has happened so many times in our brain that it becomes a default. It's just a really, really fast process neural pathway. And in the same way that a belief is formed early in our lives, we can overwrite that belief. Yes, it takes time, yes, it takes repetition, yes, it takes practice. But we have the ability to do that through conscious choice. And so the moment you start noticing that you're feeling insecure, those thoughts come into your mind. I can't do this. I don't deserve this. I'm not enough. That's the key phrase for someone who lacks acceptance. I'm not enough. So I must prove that I'm enough. I must earn that feeling from other people. I must chase it through achievement. The moment you notice that Consciously re engage the prefrontal part of your brain. This is how you re engage attention and say to yourself, hold on, I don't need to believe that thought. I don't need to believe that belief. Remind yourself that I have value. I am of value. And one of the simplest hacks that you can use in those moments is to stop thinking about yourself. I know that sounds really odd to say, but when we are suffering with a lack of self acceptance, it's always, I, me, my, how do they see me? How am I coming across? What am I doing right now? If you can shift and go, okay, how can I be here for them? How can I be of value? How can I be of service? How can I make this person feel seen? That's called self forgetting. And research shows that this process of self forgetting, by becoming more service oriented, helps to quieten that incessant voice of the ego.

A (15:23)

Yeah.

B (15:23)

And it's remarkable how when you tap into that, suddenly you realize, okay, I don't have to be so in my head. Yeah, I want to share just a couple of really simple techniques for anyone who really does struggle with acceptance. The first one is if you struggle with acceptance, you are going to attach your sense of identity to your job and to your achievements and to your performance. So if things are going well professionally, if you're achieving things, if you're doing amazing things, you feel fantastic and then something happens and it all crumbles and you fail, you take it personally, you internalize that failure. So the first and foremost thing you need to do is acknowledge you are not your job. There is so much to you that exists outside of that environment, which I know is really hard to do if you work, especially in a corporate organization where your entire status is determined by your job title and how well you're delivering and your promotion track record. Right. So we tend to internalize these things, but you need to consciously remind yourself through that prefrontal activation, I am not my job. I am so much more than this. There's a really interesting little technique we like to share. Not even a technique, it's actually a suggestion. Jay. There was a study that was conducted with Nobel Prize winning scientists, and they looked at 500 of them and they found that they were three times more likely than regular scientists to have a creative hobby. Not only that, they were 22 times more likely than regular scientists to have a hobby in the performing arts. Singing, music, drama. Many of them attribute that hobby to helping them bounce back when things didn't go to plan, and also to allowing Them to make connections that other people wouldn't have been able to. And so what can we take from that? It's great, right? School study. What can we take from that? Well, having something outside of work that we can pour ourselves into, especially something creative because we know about the impact that has in the brain that allows us to remind ourselves, hey, it's even if I didn't do well today at work, even if I didn't achieve this thing that I wanted to, I get to go and take on that character in that play. I get to go and pick up my guitar. I get to go and paint that beautiful painting. And fascinatingly, hobbies, especially creative hobbies, have been found to increase your self esteem, which increases your sense of self acceptance.

A (17:42)

Yes.

B (17:42)

So it's a very odd one, but I would encourage you, if you struggle here, go and pick up a hobby and embrace the messiness of being a beginner.

A (17:50)

I love how practical, tactical and simple this is. And simple in a good way in that I think anyone who's listening right now, they've got their plan of action for acceptance. You've got the questions to ask yourself or to make sure you know, I don't need to believe that. I don't need to agree with those beliefs. I don't need to agree with those thoughts. You've got the idea of what's your hobby. And so I love that you said that. And I started thinking about my own. And I've got a fair few. I've got pickleball, I play a ton of football or soccer. When I'm back in London, I enjoy. I mean they're not creative in artistic sense, but they're physical. They're physical because my work so creative. So in one sense, just these physical, competitive things that allow me to be with friends. Connection. I love game nights. Brilliant, big fan of game nights. And so it seems like anything that's collaborative and competitive makes me feel good because my work so creative already. So I think I don't crave creativity, but I do crave that desire to play and be free. Something you said that resonated with me was this idea of if you performed for your parents, if you had to perform to get your parents attention, you ended up thinking that performance equals success equals winning equals love, equals worth. A lot of people who are really successful today have just lived that pattern out. So in one sense it's also a pattern that makes people quite successful in the public eye. So the biggest performers in the world, some of them would say themselves that they were the Performer in their home or their family. And they didn't realize it until they became the number one person in the world at something that that wasn't who they wanted to be, it's who they became because of it. So it can make you successful, but maybe not happy. What do you think about that?

B (19:41)

Yes, I love that you've mentioned this. So there's two elements we need to touch on here. So this lack of acceptance that develops early on, where we feel like we must perform to be of value or to earn the attention of others, that leads us to perfectionistic tendencies as adults, where we set these very, very, very high standards for ourselves, beat ourselves up when we inevitably don't reach them, and then just set the next high standard. And so for a lot of people, this does propel them forward, this does propel them to amazing heights. But as you said, they might reach that number one pinnacle. And then they stop and think, this is not what I wanted. This is not the life that I wanted to lead. And so what we need to think about with success is two elements. Okay, there is the material success, the status, the external success. But then there is that internal feeling that really should be coming with it, the sense of satisfaction, the sense of fulfillment. And so anyone who is driven by a lack of acceptance, what we see in a lot of really high performers is that if they're driven by this, yes, they have amazing work ethic, yes, they're incredibly diligent, but they never feel satisfied. And that level of emptiness that they feel also drives them to try and seek that satisfaction from the next hit, the next achievement. It's called the arrival fallacy. When I get there, I will feel like I've made it. And then they get there and they think, why doesn't this feel any different? And then they set the next goal, and they're perpetually seeking this state of enoughness. And then they sacrifice things on the way to get there because they're so fixated on believing, when I get there, everything will fall into place. That they've sacrificed relationships, they've sacrificed time with their children, they've sacrificed family, they've sacrificed well, being generally. And so, yes, it may be a driver. The fundamental question that we get asked about perfectionism because we have a lot of people who say, well, I set high standards, and I think it's a good thing. Isn't that a good thing? The fundamental difference is what happens when you don't achieve the standards that determines whether it's perfectionism or it's just striving for excellence. If you beat yourself up and tell yourself, I'm a failure, I'm not enough, I'm terrible, you judge yourself. That is a sign of perfectionism. That is called maladaptive. That is a reflection of you not feeling like you're enough. So you punish yourself. Whereas if you fall short, yeah, you can feel disappointed for a while. That's fine. That's natural. That's human. But then if you ask yourself, okay, how do I get better? How do I learn? And how do I apply what I've learned to implement it the next time I do it, to get further ahead? That's called striving for excellence. And it all comes down to your approach. I also spoke to someone very recently, a highly, highly successful businesswoman, very prolific on social media as well, and she said to me she's driven by that sense of. She described it as. It's a sense of not enoughness, but not to do with me. It's that I have so much impact I want to create that I don't feel like what I'm doing is enough. And so for her, she's driven by purpose and service. And so I said, okay, so what happens if you get to the end of the day and you don't feel like it was enough from that perspective? And she said, I just get more fired up for the next day. And I said, does it make you reflect on you? Do you become judgmental on you? And she said, no. I said, there you go. So you can be driven by this incredible desire to serve others and to be of value. And that's a fantastic way to still get that desire to perform and to succeed, but for the right reasons.

A (23:06)

I love that nuance because I think for so many people, it's very much like ambition bad, satisfaction good. And that's such a simplistic way of looking at it, because you're so right. And I love that question of how does it feel when you don't hit that goal? Do you actually get more energy and more excited and more focused and more diligent?

B (23:25)

Or.

A (23:25)

Or do you become more harsh and more critical and more comparative? And as you were saying that, and you. You repeated this sentence a couple of times when you were talking, you said, you are not your job. And I was thinking, your work is not your worth. And then I was thinking about just how hardwired it is. So I was looking into this, and it was about the time of the Industrial Revolution, that work became so much more attached to worth. Everyone knew what role they played on the conveyor belt there was the division of labor. You now had everyone having titles and roles. And the question became, what do you do? And everything became about title. Now if you take it back a bit further, you've actually got everyone's last names being representative of their job. So you have baker, blacksmith, whatever else it may be. And that became your name and that was just your shop front. And so this hardwiring that we all have of our work being our worth has been hardwired for a few decades now and probably longer. But it's so hard to lose it, because that's what you're measured on since you were a kid. The grades against your friends, then the college you went to and its reputation, the degree you received and then the first job you got. And it's almost like as you get out of school, your job becomes the only measurable thing, like the amount you earn in your job title. Because people aren't comparing like, oh, I've got seven kids, you've got three. Like that isn't really a point of contention.

B (24:58)

Thank goodness.

A (24:58)

Yeah, yeah, thank goodness for sure. But, but that isn't really the metric. Or you're not like, oh, I've got. I've.

B (25:05)

You.

A (25:05)

You might compare like, I've been in a relationship for 10 years, you've only been in one for two, but the job feels like, oh, this how much money I make, and this is my status. And how do you operate in a world which is created for that competition and that comparison and not feel that schadenfreude of like, oh, I feel happy when someone else is not making it. How do you manage both of those emotions?

B (25:29)

So we do live in a world that is absolutely amplifying our self doubts and is almost designed to get us to compare ourselves to others. As you said in university, you're often ranked against your classmates. And we don't really have objective markers other than salary and how many cars you have and where you live and, and job title. And the fact is, in the world that we live in as well, your job does attract a certain perceived status. You know, lawyers, doctors, Suddenly people go, ooh, they pay attention. But this is just fueling this comparison that we have and this sense of not enoughness. So how do we prevent ourselves? We need to acknowledge we live in this world, we're consumed by this world. It's very easy to internalize these things. And, and that is why these four pillars are so fundamentally important, because we're just talking about the first one. But as I go through the rest you'll see how you can also use the other three to counterbalance. So a lot of people struggle with acceptance and they think, okay, I need to get my acceptance really strong before I'll be able to move forward and succeed and be happy. Not necessarily. It's a lifelong journey. You can actually lean on other attributes. So we call them the four A's, the four attributes of self trust, which reflect our self image. You can lean on your other attributes to help you take action anyway, focus on what you need to focus on and prevent yourself getting stuck in that comparison cycle. Something that we do share, though, with people is if you feel like you're constantly comparing to other people and you're feeling like you're worse off, you're feeling like you're not as good as they are. Something that's really valuable is to move from comparison to what we call emulation. Comparison is pitting two things against each other and looking for differences. Emulation is cool. Look at what that person is doing. How did they do it? And how can I emulate that so I can do it too? So you take learnings from their journey, apply it to your own, and suddenly, rather than feeling, oh, gosh, I'm so far behind, you suddenly realize, hey, if they can do it, I can do it. What's that first step I'm going to take?

A (27:30)

Yes.

B (27:30)

So that's one step you can take. It's to really focus on, okay, what, how do I stay in my lane?

A (27:35)

Yes. Yes. I love that. Yeah. I've often said you can turn your envy into study. And it's exactly that point.

B (27:41)

Beautiful.

A (27:42)

Like, how can you take this feeling of like, oh, why do they have it and why am I so behind? And they're so ahead and go, okay, well, what did they get right? And I think often when you start doing that, you realize, oh, wait a minute, they actually got a lot wrong too. And when you actually start looking and paying attention to someone, you go, oh, they actually had three businesses that failed before that. Oh, I just know about the one that took off. Oh, they, they went through a divorce. Through that. They haven't had a perfect life. They've had a lot of difficulty. Oh, I didn't realize that. You know, they, they lost a child like you. When you actually study someone, you actually get this textured, colored, multifaceted view of someone versus the, oh, they're on the front cover of Forbes, or they're on the front cover of Time magazine or whatever else it may be. And then you don't get that texture. So I love that idea of turning it into. And I assume with what you're saying that's also just a habit, that every time you see something and you feel envious and you feel that feeling of being left behind, you just go, okay, well no, let me learn from it. Let me study that.

B (28:43)

Right, Absolutely. All of these things that we're talking about are actually just habits. And in fact, I would argue that a belief is simply a habitual way of thinking.

A (28:52)

Yes.

B (28:52)

So when we understand that they're habits, it also empowers us to realize, hey, we can create better habits over the old ones. And what happens in those moments when you start to notice that self doubt, that inner criticism that I don't feel feel good enough. What's happening is you're often tending to. And this links to the third pillar, which we'll get to. You tend to start focusing on things outside of your control. This is why all of these four, they really do, they rise and fall with each other. You start focusing on things outside of your control when you do that. What we notice when we look at brain scans is that there's less activity in your ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for rationality and solution finding and logical thinking. Which means that your thinking is largely driven by the emotion centers, which is why it feels so self consuming when we're in that state. All the emotions come with it and all the negative thoughts come with it. I'm so far behind, I'm never going to be as good as them. I'm a screw up, whatever it is. So consciously catching yourself out is an incredibly powerful first step. And then the next step is to direct your attention. Direct your attention to what you can focus on. Moving to that idea of study or emulation that in itself is re engaging those frontal regions of the brain, which is going to help quieten the emotion centers and allow you to take the best next step for you.

A (30:10)

Well said. I love it. Before we go into the other three, which I really want to do, I want to ask you. I'm taking this tangent because I can, I can feel people thinking about it and I'm like, okay, I want to ask it, like, fake it till you make it. Is it actually good advice?

B (30:26)

Fake it till you make it is something that we hear constantly. I don't necessarily like the idea of faking anything because I think that links to inauthenticity and it might give people permission to do things that are completely insincere. I like to use what Amy Cuddy describes as be it until you become it. Which is, you know, it's a matter of semantics. But I think it resonates so much more with people who are all about sincerity and authenticity and integrity. You do not have the fake being someone else. You need to be that person, have the energy that you want to be exuding, see yourself achieving what you want to see who you want to be. Right. And then show up every day as if you've already achieved it. There is this remarkable thing that happens which has not been able to be measured just yet. When someone puts out to the universe, I want to achieve this, I believe I'm this. And then they start acting in a way that is aligned with that. Things are attracted to them, opportunities come their way. Importantly too though, they also take the steps to put them on that path. Just on this point, I want to mention something really fascinating that comes out of the research. Something that we see a lot of people talk about online especially is manifestation manifest who you want to be. Be it till you become it. Have the vision board on your wall. And I definitely think there is some power in that. Again, it has not been able to be measured as far as I'm aware. But there is another element where if you're visualizing yourself becoming something and believing you can achieve that, what you're doing is changing your self image. You're updating that blueprint. You know, we spoke about it earlier, the idea of these scars, you're allowing yourself in your mind to create this new concept of who you are. Because if you cannot see yourself as being there, as deserving, that you will inevitably sabotage yourself as you get there. Yes, you will notice everything getting in your way and, and that'll be proof that, see, I can't do this. So that's the idea of upgrading your self image. So that's really, really powerful. But then a lot of people get stuck where they just have this view of where they want to go. They're so clear on it, they're excited about it, and then suddenly they just, they flounder. And it's because of two things happening. There was a study that was published that found that when we have these beautiful positive, they call them positive fantasies, these visualizations where we want to be and we feel them and we embody them, it can actually SAP your energy. Why? Because when we then face a roadblock or a setback that we are completely unprepared for, it challenges that view that, hey, I can get there and suddenly we start to think, oh no, we start to anchor back on our current self image and think too hard, I'm never going to get there. I don't deserve it, I'm not capable enough. And then we retreat. So there's an important step and second step, right? So you need to visualize yourself getting there. But then you also, and this is contrary to what a lot of people suggest, what the research suggests, what we encourage all of our students to do is be very clear on what are all the things that are going to get in the way of you getting there. Be really clear on that. A lot of people say, no, don't anticipate that because you'll will it into existence. No, we say be very pragmatic. What are the things that could get in the way? One of them is, well, my own belief about myself. The other one is the people I'm around. Maybe they will prevent me from getting there. It could be boredom. It could be this obstacle, that obstacle, that setback, that failure. Write them down. But then there is an important second step. If you only write them down, you're going to enter an entire world of catastrophizing and worrying. So the next step then is to ask yourself, what will I do if and when this happens? You create your contingency plan, your recovery plan, so that if it happens, you have your steps, you've prepared, you've essentially been there before. So you don't need to worry about spiraling into overthinking and worry and catastrophizing. You say, nope, I've been here, I've got my plan. It's called an implementation intention. And if you come up with these if, then you are going to be more likely to achieve that goal, more likely to persist when the roadblock when the failure comes, and more likely to move towards where you want to go.

A (34:39)

Want to make a real difference this giving season. This December on purpose is part of Pods Fight Poverty Podcasts, teaming up to lift three villages in Rwanda out of extreme poverty. We're doing it through Give Directly, which sends cash straight to families so they can choose what they need Most. Donate@givedirectly.org OnPurpose first time gifts are matched, doubling your impact. Our goal is $1 million by year's end, enough to lift 700 families out of poverty. Join us at GiveDirectly.org onpurpose.

B (35:24)

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage on top of the thousands of apps, the IT department already manages. Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM. Season two of Unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Becker, Snafeeza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more. Take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher, higher, and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max.

A (36:23)

Hey, audiobook lovers.

B (36:25)

This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night how to Be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control?

A (36:46)

So I have two microphones on stage.

B (36:48)

We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20.

A (37:03)

Years or 25 years.

B (37:04)

Like the Beatles broke up in seven.

A (37:07)

And a half years and we're going on 35.

B (37:11)

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

A (37:33)

It's so fascinating, isn't it, that the human mind either imagines everything going wrong.

B (37:39)

Yeah.

A (37:40)

Or imagines everything going right. But then you're presenting this, like, middle ground of be pragmatic, be aware. If this, then that. And that's the reality of life. Like, that's where you're gonna live. Like, if you just sit there in dreamland and think of everything being perfect, we know that's never gonna happen. And also we have this tendency to just think in nightmares where, well, everything's going wrong, nothing's ever going to work out. I'm not worth anything. And these, we almost gravitate to these extremes because they feel safer. In a weird way, why do we do that? Why do we gravitate to these extremes?

B (38:13)

The brain craves certainty. The brain fundamentally craves certainty. And the reason why, when we look at fundamentally why the brain does what it does its primary function. A lot of people say its primary function is to protect us. There's a little bit more to it. The primary function of the brain really is to make sure that the rest of the body is doing what it needs to do while using the least amount of metabolic energy, right? So it needs us to function while using as little energy as possible. And so part of that is obviously protecting you, because then if you're in a situation where you're having to deal with something terrible happening, the brain has to put in a lot more effort. So it will often magnify everything that could go wrong. Because if it does that, it gives you a sense of certainty. No, this is going to happen. You're going to fail, you're going to fall short, they're going to laugh at you, they're going to reject you.

A (39:01)

And at least you know.

B (39:02)

At least you know so that you don't do the thing. Because if you do the thing and that happens, your brain's going to have to put in a lot more work to get you through that. So if it can prevent you from taking that step. And we actually refer to this as what's called the misguided protector, in our mind, it's that voice. It's an inner deceiver, and it's trying to protect us. But it's misguided. But fundamentally, it will highlight everything that could go wrong so that we don't take action, because then it succeeds. Then we're safe, but we're stuck. And then the other extreme, of course, is only visualizing where we want to be, because again, it's certainty. No, I'm guaranteed for that to happen. And then we know what happens when you hit a roadblock. Suddenly everything crumbles, and then you go into the other side. Oh, no, all these things are going to go wrong. So when we recognize that this is just our brain doing what it needs to do, there's something else which is really interesting. There is a connection between intelligence and anxiety. People who tend to be higher on intelligence and IQ ratings of iq, they tend to be more aware of complexity, more aware of all the risks that could go wrong, which then leads them to overthink about those risks and then overthink about what could happen if those risks actually occurred, which increases anxiety, which reduces confidence, and then reinforces that initial state of awareness of the complexity. And so if you're listening to this and you feel like you're constantly overthinking and you're constantly aware of risks, it could be that you Have a slightly higher than average iq. But it's also important to know that we can break that cycle. We call it the spiral interrupt technique. When this is happening, the part of the brain that's activated is the emotion center, the threat detection center. It's trying to identify everything that could go wrong to keep you safe. So what you can do is control your attention. Bring your attention back to what can I control right now? By literally saying to yourself, this is my brain doing what it does. I am safe to act anyway. So, again, simply by doing that, by consciously controlling your thoughts, you are re engaging those prefrontal regions, which reduces activity in the amygdala, in the fear centers, and allows you to have that moment of rationality to then decide what's next.

A (41:13)

Yeah, I can think of a really good personal example of that. I remember I was very fortunate to go to public speaking school from age 11 to 18 and had training and found it comfortable being on stage and everything else. But then as soon as my scales started to change and I started to work in different audiences, in different arenas, in different spaces, I could notice that my heart rate would go up. I could notice that my hands would start to shake. I could notice that I felt sweaty palms. I could notice that I felt nervous and anxious. And I used to start to think, well, I have the skills. And I like, what am I doing wrong here? And I'd overthink that. And then I'd overthink and go, oh, my God, everyone's gonna see my handshaking. And then am I gonna hold the card? Or should I put it down? Or, like, what if my slides? And then you're overthinking it, and it's what you just said. And I had a different set of words for it that I would say internally. And it was just, no, this is what happens when I care. And what I started to realize was, oh, when I care, my body's gonna do this, and I can go and give an amazing talk anyway, But I care. That's all it's showing me. And I don't need to stop this or I don't need to get over this or I don't need this to disappear in order for me to go out there and do what I do. And you're so right. That that simple moment of. And it goes back to acceptance that this is just biologically what happens when I care. Yeah, I get a bit nervous and my heart beats faster and all the things that. And it' okay, if I can reframe that so much can happen.

B (42:42)

I love that you mentioned that one as well. This idea of caring. Because when we acknowledge that our brain is just doing what it's wired to do and then we can, we can essentially interpret what we're feeling in a way that's going to serve us. And so we can either interpret that heart rate, as you said, as you get into the overthinking of the overthinking and then you're stressed about the stress. It's called a meta emotion, where it's like an emotion about an emotion and it just spirals out of control. Or you can say, no, no, this is, my brain is just doing its job. I'm prepared, I'm ready, I'm going to be of service here. I care, I care about delivering a good outcome. And it's powerful when you recognize that.

A (43:18)

Yeah. What's the second A?

B (43:20)

Okay, so that's the first A. That's acceptance. The second A.

A (43:22)

And there's so much more in the book, I just want to point out.

B (43:24)

There's so much more.

A (43:25)

There's so much more in the book. I am just moving us through as we discuss some of the highlights.

B (43:29)

Do you want to share one other thing for people who struggle with acceptance just because it comes up so frequently, especially for people early in their careers. And this was me 15 years ago working in corporate in a male dominated environment. I started my career as a lawyer, commercial law. I was in that industry for four years. Then I moved into banking and finance for six years. Oh gosh. The whole time I felt like an imposter. I felt like I didn't belong. I felt like a hiring mistake. But I get, I got very good at faking it. So. Okay, now I'm going to share a little bit of my story. So. So when I was very young, the age of three or four, I had a beautiful, supportive Persian family. And we'd always get together at my grandparents house and have kebab that my grandpa would make. And then after dinner, so I was, I liked performing as a, as a kid. After dinner there would be this chante bayad bedehse which means sade has to dance for us. And it was great. When I was a kid, I'd get up and I'd do my little thing and they'd watch and they'd cheer and it was fantastic. But then as I got older, I started to enjoy it less and less. But I didn't know how to say no. And so at the age of 9 or 10 or 12, I still felt like I had to perform, to make people happy. This was entirely in my head. If I had communicated to them or set a boundary or said, look, I don't feel like it, they would have been fine. My family loved me. I didn't know and I internalized from a young age that I am only as good as the performance I'm giving, which means making other people happy. And I have carried that with me through my entire career. In fact, one of the drivers of me doing a PhD, which was one of the hardest things I've ever done, was because of this feeling of not being enough and needing to still prove myself, which is the wrong reason to do anything. And I will tell you this much, it's done and I still don't feel, I still haven't developed that acceptance. So it's an ongoing process for me and I'm very aware of it and I'm working on the habits to develop it. But when I entered the workforce, so I did law because I did really great in high school and I had a lot of pressure to use those grades. So it was like law, medicine, engineering. I wasn't going to do matter engineering. So I did law. I did it with psychology because I was passionate about people. But law was so difficult for me that I had to focus so much on it and I had to overcompensate because I didn't feel like I belonged. I tried to drop it after the first class, but any, any case, I kept with it, never felt like I belonged. I was able to do really well. I got fantastic grades at the end, got a job in a top tier commercial law firm. But that feeling of this is not me, this is not for me. Stuck with me. And I was trying to fake it till I made it. So I was becoming someone different. I was speaking differently, I was showing up differently, trying to sound smart and credible, using big fancy words to fit in. What I now know is that that can backfire. Studies have been found that when you use unnecessarily complex language and where you're trying to be perceived as more credible and competent, it does the opposite and it undermines your credibility and your competence. Simplicity, it's all about simplicity. But I didn't know that. So I carried that through banking. I was so full of anxiety, I'd literally hide behind my cubicle so people couldn't give me work because if they didn't know I was there, I wouldn't basically be given it. Then I moved into banking and finance, convinced that if I moved into a different industry I could Start fresh, reinvent myself, leave the doubt behind. Do you think that happened? No, absolutely not. Doubt doesn't work like that. I took it with me because of my self image, because I was carrying that self image around, the scars I had. And again, I came from a wonderfully supportive family, and still I had scars. And one of the things as I was doing research for this book is, you know, there's a lot of talk about attachment theory and those early experiences. What some people experience is a secure attachment style. When they're young, they have a supportive environment full of love and validation, and yet still as adults, they feel like they're not enough. And could be one of two reasons. It could be that you feel so indebted to your family that you feel like you need to keep performing for them to make them proud. The second reason is that you might also have had a sibling who was challenging just by nature of their personality. And you saw that and you didn't want to be that. And so you became the opposite. You became the good kid to be that for your parents, and you just take that with you. So that was me. And then I started feeling guilty about why am I feeling this self doubt? I have no reason to. And so it became this whole big thing. Anyway, seven years in banking and finance, I eventually found my way. I tapped into roles that I loved, learned to lean on my strengths, and I stopped trying to be like everybody else and realized, hey, I'm here because I have some value to offer. How do I tap into that value? And then so that was kind of my journey. And that I completely forgot the question that you asked me. But that's a little bit about how I got there. Oh. What I wanted to share is something that I used to do, which people listening might do if they struggle with acceptance. Because we want other people to be happy with us, we say yes compulsively, reflexively, before we even know what we're saying yes to. So we end up taking on more work. We end up doing more than most people. We end up exhausted because we don't know how to say no. Saying no is a superpower, but it all comes down to how you say it. So something that we encourage is what's called intentional delay. All it means. Studies have found that if you just delay by a number of milliseconds, you make a better decision under pressure. So what that means is if someone asks you to do something, instead of immediately, yes, sure. And then having to spend your entire weekend at work, you would say, I would love to Help. Let me get back to you by the end of the day to make sure I am able to. Or let me check my calendar and I'll get back to you within an hour. So you're doing two things. You're creating a delay and then committing to get back to them. That process allows you some space to then ask yourself, okay, is this something that I genuinely want to do or I feel compelled to do because I don't feel like I'm enough? You run it through that little criteria, and then if it's compulsion because you don't feel like you're enough, you give them a polite decline. And if it is something you want to do, you go ahead and you do it. That is a powerful way to remind yourself that what you need matters too. And you can politely decline without affecting a relationship.

A (49:41)

Yeah, it's that that's the hardest part. I think we all have, because I know you write about in the book that we respond to social rejection like physical pain.

B (49:51)

Yes.

A (49:52)

We think that if someone. And social rejection works two ways. Right. Like, one social rejection is you're not invited to a party, but the other type of social rejection is you saying no, and then thinking the other person thinks you're mean or bad or rejects you in the sense of, oh, you're not good at your job. And I think we often don't talk about that second version of social rejection, which you get from standing up, setting boundaries, whatever it may be, where you go, I don't think I can do that. And then someone goes, oh, I knew you didn't care. Right. Like a friend, or whatever it may be. And that's a feeling of social rejection, which feels like a punch in the gut. It does feels like someone just stabbed you because you're like, no, I do care. I love you. I'm there for you. And you're like, no, no, no. So, so many of these things are so hardwired. Like you just said, your. Your example as I was listening to you speak, and I was thinking about your beautiful family who loves you. And, and. And I get that it's so in our head where it's like, oh, I have to dance. I've always danced. I've always made everyone laugh. I've always told jokes. I've always got good grades. I'm the good kid. I'm the hyper kid.

B (50:52)

The labels.

A (50:53)

The labels, right? And those labels, most of us put them on ourselves sometimes. They did come through teachers and parents. Of course. There's plenty of versions of that. Ripping off a label Is not easy.

B (51:06)

It's painful.

A (51:06)

It's painful, right? It's like ripping off a name tag is whatever, but ripping off a label is so much more painful. How do you encourage people to go through that process of ripping off a label? I'm the dancer, I'm the entertainer, I'm the performer. When it shows up in all areas of their life, they're now doing it for their partner, they're now doing it at their job, they're now doing it to their siblings. And it's like, well, if I start tearing this off, people are also going to be like, oh, you don't want to entertain me anymore? Oh, you don't want to make me laugh anymore?

B (51:35)

You don't care about me anymore?

A (51:36)

You don't care about me anymore. And that's what they're really saying. So the cost of ripping off a label is so high for people. How do you begin that journey? What do you do?

B (51:49)

So to peel off a label, you need to have a deeper yes. What does that mean? We often say yes to other people because we are trying to maintain who we are. And that perception. And again, that risk of social rejection is so painful that we want to avoid it. What's really helpful is to, okay, you know that there's a yes that you can be giving them. But what is your deeper yes? What is you declining? This thing going to allow you to say yes to, which is actually more important for you in the long run. So it might be saying no to working late tonight is me saying yes to spending more time with my kids before dinner time, me saying yes to investing in my physical health. So there's this idea of know what your deeper yes is so that you're not just saying no to someone. You're actually honoring something within you. But the second element, these labels that we wear, the brain loves labels because the brain lacks efficiency, because it wants to operate with the least amount of metabolic energy. So it'll label things. Hot, cold, good, bad, true, false. And we also slap these labels on ourselves. I like to encourage people once you're aware of your labels. Now, how do you know what a label is? It's anything you put after the words, I am, I am intense, I am boring, I am unworthy, I am such a procrastinator. These are labels. The moment we have I am before something, we are internalizing that. We're making it mean something about us, and we are identifying with it. And this is really dangerous. We're fusing with that label. So we had a client that we worked with. Right around the time of the pandemic, she just started a new job. She was a senior leader. And she. When I initially met her, I said, tell me about yourself. So she shared. She loves pickleball. Like you, Jay. She was a mother. She had just started this new job. And she said, and I can be intense. But when she said, I can be intense, her entire face wrinkled in disgust. So I knew there was something there. And I said, what makes you use that label? So quick side note. This is just a little other tip. I avoid using the word why in any conversations, in any client meetings. The word why can be like an interrogation. People get defensive. Why, Jay, why? That you suddenly get on edge. But if you say, what? What was the reason? It's so valuable. And this is effective for teamwork. This is effective for feedback, even speaking to your partner. So that's a little side note. But in any case, I asked her, I said, what does that label mean to you? Where does it come from? And she said, well, when I was leaving my previous role, as I was leaving, my boss said, oh, you're intense, but we'll miss you. And that label stuck. And this was a label that she'd stuck on as an adult. But when we dug deeper, we found out. So she was one of, I think, seven kids in an Egyptian family. When she was a kid, she was the youngest, and she had to fight for attention. So she was loud. She would scream. She was what they would call too much all the time. And so as a kid, she internalized this belief of I am too much. And so when this label got attached to her intense, it brought back all those memories. And so if someone has a label like this, what's really important to do is to acknowledge that you don't have to necessarily rip it off. You can replace it. So with her, I said, okay, so describe your intensity to me. And she described what it meant. And I said, okay, well, I see that as passion. What if you said, I'm passionate? And she had this moment of recognition in her face, she said, oh, my goodness, you are so right. I'm passionate about what I do. I'm passionate about life. That is why I care so much. It's pure passion. It's not intensity. And that moment of recognition fundamentally changed the meaning she'd applied to the quality that she had. And then she started showing up with that passion and owning that passion, and that was her reclaiming a label. But if you have a label like, I'm boring or I'm such a Procrastinator. You need to shift it into something that is growth oriented or actually positive. So we hear I'm boring a lot from the people that we work with and we support. Yeah. When we get down to it, a lot of them will claim that they. Funny enough, I have a scar. I feel like my story is boring. I don't like talking about myself too much because I genuinely don't think I have an interesting life or interesting story. So I have this I'm boring narrative. I don't know where it came from. Actually, I probably do, but I'm not going to share that. But go on. So I. When I was in high school, my parents went through a divorce. It was amicable. I'm blessed with a truly remarkable family. It was an amicable divorce. But naturally anyone who experiences that, you start to question, could I have done anything differently? Should I have been more supportive? Should I have done this or been a better kid? And so I internalized that. And one way that that came out is not wanting to talk about it with anybody because it's almost like if I spoke about it, it would make it worse. So I just bottled it all up. And so from around 15, I stopped sharing about myself. In fact, even when I entered the workforce, I had a group of work friends and one of them broke up with me, a female friend. She broke up with our friendship because she said, I feel like I don't know anything about you and you know so much about me. What she was referring to in that situation was, I don't like to share a lot of the negative things going on in my life. A lot of, especially women like to connect by sharing negative things. Oh, you think that's bad? Look at what I'm going through. And that's how they bond, which in itself is not necessarily healthy. But because I wasn't sharing much about myself at all or any of that, I wasn't able to connect with people. And so that is something that I have taken with me through my entire life. And I'm still kind of trying to shake it. But this idea of replacing a label would be, okay, so a boring label could be. You'd replace it with, I am thoughtful and I like to give other people time to share what they're going through. Right. So it's not I'm boring, it's just, no, I'm more thoughtful. I prefer careful deliberation. And I like things to be stable and grounded and I like making other people feel seen. That's one way that you take a behavioral characteristic that you have and flip it into something that is not a negative, which then allows you to feel like you can build on it.

A (57:58)

Yes.

B (57:58)

What about I'm such a procrastinator. We get a lot of these, so we hear a lot of content on social media, we get a lot of people commenting and sharing and this idea of, I'm really, you know, I procrastinate all the time, I can't get started. You shift from I'm a procrastinator to I'm learning to be better with my time and take action over overthinking. So you take a label and you shift it into what you want. And that's one way that you're changing that self image. You're changing it to be what you're aspiring to work towards and once you can see that, you're more likely to actually move towards it.

A (58:33)

Yes. Yeah, I mean, thank you for sharing that, by the way. Thank you for being so open because, yeah, it's always harder to share those types of things and the things we're struggling with. And I can relate to what you're saying as well. I find myself being someone who loves deep, thoughtful conversation. So I gravitate towards one to one, even in a big group of people. And initially, many years ago, and especially when I moved to LA and, you know, got invited to all sorts of events and everything, in the beginning I would just feel like, oh, I didn't. There was a part of me that felt I didn't belong at these events because I was surrounded by people that I grew up watching on TV and film. And then there was another side of me more interestingly, which was, oh, I don't know how to do small talk and small talk's not my thing and I don't know how to navigate that. And that even happened when I went into the corporate world because after I left the monastery where we didn't do a lot of small talk, it was very difficult for me to go into corporate networking scenarios because to me the conversation just didn't go anywhere. And at that time I would start to think, maybe I'm boring, maybe I have nothing to say, oh, I'm not that funny because I can't just quip and whatever and I'm good at building rapport one on one, but just in a group, I just didn't feel confident about it and I started to reframe it as I'm just going to look for the one person that I can have the deepest, most beautiful conversation with. And what's Amazing is wherever I go, I have to go to so many events for work or whatever it is. And I just found the one person that I had the most meaningful connection with. And what I found is that just turned into loads of great friendships.

B (60:13)

And.

A (60:13)

And so now I never feel alone anywhere because I know someone deeply. Than knowing a lot of people in a shallow way where I can still feel alone and disconnected. What was helpful for me was there are certain settings where I will be boring, but there are certain settings where I'm the least boring person in the world, and I'm just looking for those. And that acceptance allowed me to play to my strengths and who I want to be and what kind of conversations I want to have. And it's like, I want to get to know someone deeply. I want to share intimate things. I want to hear things back. I want to hear about worldviews. Like, I'm fascinated by that. What I don't want to hear about is, where's the best restaurant for dinner? I'm just not interested. Like, that's not. And so in that conversation, I am boring. And that's okay because I don't want to be interesting there. And so I love what you're saying because there's so much freedom when you address the truth of it and you find the part of it that is, like you said, growth oriented.

B (61:07)

Yes.

A (61:08)

We're not positively spinning it because that just feels fake, but it's. Where's the growth side of this? And that's what it was for me. The growth side was, go and find someone who wants the same thing as you, because then you'll have a great time.

B (61:20)

How did you. So when you were starting, let's look to you, if you don't mind.

A (61:23)

All right.

B (61:24)

Yeah, let's do it.

A (61:25)

Yeah. This is your version of I'm boring so I listen to other people.

B (61:28)

Oh, yes. So when you were starting in this space and you found yourself in those situations, what kind of self talk helped you stay grounded and not become self critical?

A (61:39)

The first thing I realized, and a lot of my approach has been inspired through my monk teachers. So a lot of what I would hear in my self talk was what I'd learned. And so whenever I'd go to events in the beginning, people would say, did you talk to this person? And did you network with this person? Did you talk to this person? I was like, no, because I don't think that is the right thing to do. Like, I don't think me going up to someone that I don't know and doesn't know me. And starting up a conversation is authentic to me and who I want to be. If it happens authentically, that's amazing. But that's not authentic to me. My authentic version is to help people feel safe and comfortable, smile, be courteous and kind, but to not be invasive, especially in places where everyone's kind of stressed and anxious. And so my approach has always been to talk to someone if they talk to me, to smile at someone. And if there's a. You feel a sense of like, hey, we're both looking for someone to connect to, find it and recognize that ultimately everyone's feeling anxious here. So there's no one who's feeling confident and you're feeling anxious. Everyone's feeling anxious because no one knows anyone and no one knows who to talk to. So I think for me, my self talk was trust. Hence beautiful title, Big trust your book. Trust that you don't have to meet everyone. This isn't your only opportunity to do. Sell your. This idea of like, like, you know, sell yourself, hand out your business card to everyone. Like, I'm like, having a meaningful connection with someone is probably more valuable than handing your business card and shaking hands with everyone in the room just so you can say you shook hands with so and so and X, Y and Z. It's like to me, it was, it was reminding myself that value was deep, it was meaningful, it was purposeful, it was intentional, it was, it was mutual. The imposter syndrome part, there was definitely a lot of negative self talk at the start of like, you don't belong here. You shouldn't be in this room. Like, oh my God, like, you know, and. And I'd freeze a lot and just. I'm not even gonna say hello to that. I'm not even gonna smile because you're so stressed out.

B (63:45)

Yeah.

A (63:46)

And. And I think the self talk that got away, that helped me get through that. I realized it wasn't self talk. It was just showing up and sitting in that discomfort. It wasn't. There was no self talk. And I know that's going to lead to it was just continuing to show up, feeling that discomfort, feeling that uncertainty, and recognizing that it didn't stop me from connecting, smiling, meeting, being myself. And the biggest question I'd always ask myself, actually Trevor Noah said this to me when he came on the show. He was like, jay, you always feel comfortable at all the things you're at, and I wouldn't sense that you don't. And I said, well, that's cause I only go to Things I feel I have a purpose at. And that solved everything to me, where I was like, if I know why I'm going somewhere, I can show up as my best self if I don't know why I'm going there. And I kind of think someone thinks I should go there, or someone on my team said it would be a good idea. Now I hate being there because I'm lost. Whereas if I know what my purpose is and why I'm standing there, great. Like, I could be alone there. I could be everyone's best friend there. I could be anything. Anyway, sorry, long answer.

B (64:51)

No, brilliant answer.

A (64:52)

I'll find the nuance and complexity and not give you a, you know, a throwaway.

B (64:57)

It was wonderful. Thank you so much. And I'm sure everyone listening appreciates so much hearing your own journey and your perspective as we go through this. There's a few things that came to mind as you were speaking. One of the things you said is that mistake that we make when we think we're the only one feeling a certain way. Everyone else must be confident I'm the only one. It's called pluralistic ignorance.

A (65:14)

Interesting, I didn't know that word.

B (65:16)

Everyone actually feels that way. I mean, look, we say everyone, probably 95% of people will feel that. But as you said, your ability to just show up in the discomfort and acknowledge that, hey, it's uncomfortable, but I'm here, I'm safe, it's fine. That makes it easier the next time you do it. You develop what's called a tolerance for discomfort. And that leads to amazing things. And then the other thing you highlighted is that what helped you is this idea of having a purpose and this idea of not making it about you. It was this concept of self forgetting that I'd mentioned as one of the. We call it the gift of self acceptance is the ability to forget yourself and make it about other people. So you said, if I have something meaningful to share, which is not about you, that's about adding something to them that allows those voices to quieten. Because it's not just you doing it because you want to or you think you need to or you think you should, it's for their sake. So that's beautiful. And then I love how you brought in imposter syndrome, which brings us beautifully to the second pillar, which is agency. So just my way of recap, we've just covered acceptance for everyone listening. And acceptance is essentially when your self esteem is shaky, you seek validation. You feel like you need to prove your worth, your sense of identity is attached to what you're producing or performing or achieving. The next way that self doubt can show up is not to do with the I'm not enough or I'm not worthy, and entirely to do with the can I actually do this thing? Do I have the skills and the ability to do it? And what we see here is a lot of people will fall into imposter syndrome.

A (66:54)

Shari, can you actually define what imposter syndrome is?

B (66:57)

Imposter syndrome actually doesn't exist in the literature and the research as the term imposter syndrome, it's called imposter phenomenon. Now just notice the difference between a syndrome and a phenomenon. One of them is a behavioral phenomenon that was observed among a group of people. The other one pathologizes it and makes it seem like there's something wrong with us. So imposter syndrome was initially discovered in the 1970s where they were specifically looking at women. So this was high achieving women, women who had just entered the workforce, women who had PhDs and a strong track record behind them. And they felt like they didn't belong. They felt like they were frauds. They felt that they were undeserving of their success. They felt that everyone else thought that they were smarter or more capable than they really were. So there's two elements for the imposter phenomenon. We'll move away from syndrome imposter phenomenon. The first element is that you feel like a fraud, that other people believe you to be something you're not. And the second element is that you have to have some kind of track record behind you that allows you to feel like, I don't deserve this. If you feel like an imposter and you've just started a new job, it's probably not imposter, right? It's just I'm in a new environment. I need to give myself grace to learn. When we self diagnose and say, oh my gosh, I'm such an imposter, this is imposter syndrome. That can lead us to withdraw even further. We use it as an excuse. So remind yourself. No, the imposter syndrome or imposter phenomenon is only when I have achieved something. I've just won this award, I've got this amazing job, and I can demonstrate that I've got all these achievements behind me, but I still don't feel I deserve it. Yes, that is the definition of imposter phenomenon. And it is so common not just among women, but also among men. Some studies have found that up to 82% of people at some point have felt like a fraud. So if you've ever felt this way, firstly, rest assured you're in very good company. The next thing to be aware of with imposter syndrome or phenomenon is if you feel like a fraud, rather than hearing that voice saying, you don't belong, don't speak to that person, don't speak up, flip it immediately to, wow, what an amazing opportunity I have to learn and grow. Who can I learn from? What do I need to develop here? So again, it's this idea of shifting from almost comparison into emulation or envy into study. Make it something action oriented that's really powerful and speak to someone about it. So you know Jason Seagal from How I Met yout Mother? He was describing on a podcast how he was when he transitioned from actor into director on Dispatches for Elsewhere from Elsewhere. He was so full of imposter syndrome and anxiety and he said he didn't know what to do. He was overthinking and it was becoming this big thing. So finally he calls all the crew together and in front of everyone, he says, hey, everyone, this is my first time doing this. Don't really know what I'm doing. If I do anything that bugs you, let me know. I'm sure we're going to have an amazing time. He called it out. He acknowledged he didn't try to be perfect as we try to do when we feel like the imposter. We try to overcompensate so people don't find us out. But he just acknowledged it and he said it was incredibly freeing. When you call out the fear, it shrinks it. And so if you're ever feeling this way, speak to someone about it. You'll probably find they've been there too.

A (70:13)

Yeah. And I love what you said about this idea of. Because a lot of people ask me, they're like, jay, do you ever still feel self doubt or like an imposter? And I said, I always feel it when I'm doing something new.

B (70:22)

Yeah.

A (70:23)

And that has made me realize that it's got nothing to do with me.

B (70:26)

No.

A (70:26)

It's because I'm trying to get out of my comfort zone.

B (70:29)

Yes.

A (70:29)

So I love it now. I love the idea of feeling that way because it's proof to me that I'm pushing myself outside of my comfort zone. I'm trying something new. We're expanding something. We're building a new business, we're starting a new venture, we're creating a new service purpose program, whatever it may be. It's like I've Just never done it before. And yeah, if I keep doing everything I've always done, I don't get nervous anymore. But that's boring to me and that's not exciting. And so now that feeling of being uncomfortable and being nervous and being wondering whether I fit in and everything is great because it's a sign to me that I'm moving forward.

B (71:08)

Yes. It's growth with integrity, as we say. Because if you had blind delusion, you wouldn't feel the doubt.

A (71:14)

Yes, right, exactly.

B (71:15)

So you've got the integrity, the intellectual humility to know, okay, I haven't done this before. Here are the gaps. But you're embracing the discomfort that comes with growth. You only experience that kind of imposter feeling when you're stretched. You would never feel that if you know how to do everything.

A (71:31)

Yeah.

B (71:31)

And if you're fully comfortable and if.

A (71:32)

You'Re a narcissist, like, you're like, well.

B (71:34)

Yes, we do need to acknowledge it's like 5 to 8% of the population that we're not talking about.

A (71:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but, you know, but that delusion point is true, that if anyone ever says, oh, I never feel any self doubt, there's a sense of delusional confidence.

B (71:46)

Or a lack of self awareness.

A (71:47)

Or a lack of self awareness, which isn't healthy.

B (71:49)

No.

A (71:50)

Because you're convinced. And it almost is an insecurity projection because you're convincing yourself. No, no, of course I don't feel anything. It's like, well, no, everyone's human would feel. You'd feel something no matter. Even if it was really small. Like if I. This is a terrible example, but because I don't cook, I can't cook to save my life. It's like if, if my wife asked me to cook dinner, I would be freaking out because I wouldn't have a clue what to do. And. And it's the small. It's a very small thing. Like people know how to do it. It's simple. It seems like it.

B (72:20)

Low risk.

A (72:21)

Yeah. Low risk. Yeah, to some degree. Yeah, exactly. But that's the point that it's. It's not even about the grandiosity of the task. It's about what's new to you and what you find difficult. And so no one can even say, oh, but that's small or that's big. Big and small are not the indicators of whether you feel uncomfortable. And so for someone, something uncomfortable might be doing something really small and for someone else who might be doing something really big and.

B (72:46)

Exactly, exactly. And a big Part of that comes down to your level of agency. Where do you fall on that scale? So agency relates to what's called self efficacy. That's the personality trait, which is the belief that you can do what you need to do to achieve what you want to achieve. I want to take you somewhere which relates to this and it actually relates to the overarching theme of the book. Jay, if I were to ask you, I mean, we've kind of primed it now, but if I were to ask you off the top of your head, what do you think the opposite of self doubt is?

A (73:13)

Is it not self trust?

B (73:15)

Yeah, so I primed you. So it's absolutely self trust. So we find though that 90% of people, if we haven't had this conversation, I should have asked you that at the very beginning. When we ask this question, 90% of people will say that it is, or 95% will say it is confidence. Confidence. And so many people, so much of the population are waiting for that feeling of confidence before they take that step. They say, I'll know when I'm ready. You know that feeling of confidence that we wait for. Actually when we look at the literature, it does not come before we take the action, it comes after we take the action. Because the brain needs to see yourself doing the thing. It gets a proof point, it gets an evidence point. Hey, I can do this. That then builds a degree of skill and competence. Hey, I did it and I was okay and I got better. Which then boosts your self efficacy. And then that creates momentum and motivation. And that is the feeling that we've associated with confidence.

A (74:12)

So what do we need before that?

B (74:13)

So what do we need before it? Well, when we actually look at the word confidence. So I think this is where the mix up happened. When we look at the origins of the word confidence, it comes from the words in Latin, con and fidere, meaning with trust. And so really what we need before we take action is not that feeling that we're waiting for. It's self trust. Trusting that you can handle whatever comes your way. Whether you succeed, whether you fail, whether you bounce back, whether you bounce, whatever it is, you will be okay. And in order to do that, we call that the state of big trust, which is recognizing these four attributes, reminding yourself that you can strengthen them, working on strengthening them, and also knowing which one can you lean on when you might be weaker in the others. So that's, and why this ties into agency is agency is such a big part of this. Because if you do not believe that you can do the thing. If you don't believe that you have the skills or the ability to learn or capacity to adapt, you will not take that step. And so you will perpetually wait to feel ready, and then you're waiting. And you will often occupy yourself or distract yourself with preparation and planning and all the things that we do that we think we're being productive by doing, but they're just distracting us. It's procrastinating, essentially. Yeah, we just need to take the action. So agency is recognizing, hey, I can do this. I have been here before, as in, I've been in unfamiliar situations and I was fine. How can I draw on that? I have handled challenges before. How can I bring those attributes? There's this fantastic story that comes from Paula Scher, legendary graphic designer. So in the 19. It was 1998, when Citibank was merging with Travelers Insurance, creating Citibank, they. Or Citigroup, they brought Paula Scher in to create the logo design. And so she's sitting at this meeting, and they're all talking about what they want for this logo. She grabs a napkin, and she starts scribbling on this napkin for a few seconds. Finally, she slides the napkin over and she says, here's your logo. The table was stunned. They said, how is it possible that you created a logo in a matter of seconds? And she sat back and she said, it's done in a second, and 34 years, it's done in a second. And every experience and everything that's in my head, this is what happens when we lack agency. I mean, Paul is showing us what it looks like to have a strong degree of agency when we lack agency. Often what happens is we start to undervalue the skills and the strengths that we've developed, because now they become easy for us. They're no longer an effort for us, and so we forget the value that they can add. We've come to equate, and I think this is a byproduct of the society that we live in. We've come to equate effort with value. I must put in effort in order to be delivering something of value. And if it comes too easily, then it's not a value. But that's because your expertise becomes second nature to you, and then it becomes invisible to you. Not only that, it can become invisible to other people. If you do something really easily, like this situation, how can you design this logo that they ended up paying $1.5 million for? How can you do that in a few seconds? You have to spend months Creating this design in order for us to pay you that money? No, we need to remind ourselves that we have an incredible track record of not only hard skills and tangible achievements, but, but what we call essence qualities. The growth mindset, the curiosity, the persistence, the diligence. And these are things that you develop not only at work, but importantly in life. We forget when we're at work. And this used to happen to me all the time and it happens to so many of the people in our programs. They start a new job and they, yes, they may not be able to do the things that they need to do in the job. And then they get so down on themselves, forgetting that they have all these other skills and attributes that they can be applying to help them learn what they need to learn. They can bring their growth mindset, their curiosity, their desire to learn new things, their ability to grasp things really quickly. They can bring all of that with them. And as soon as you remind them of that, they suddenly feel so much more at ease and it opens up their mind to learning quicker. So if you're, if anyone listening is in a position where you don't feel like you have everything that you need and everything on the job description and you're magnifying your gaps, which is what the brain does, pause and write down, firstly, write down everything that you are needing to do, right? Everything on the job description for the role, whatever it might be. In the middle column, what are all of the qualities that you have developed over the course of your life? And then in your third column, you're mapping your middle column to your first column, right? So I'm going to bring my growth mindset for this one, this one and this one. I'm going to bring my diligence for here and here. I'm going to bring my ability to be really tenacious to this, that and that. And then suddenly you've mapped out what you need to apply and how. And it's incredibly empowering and it boosts your self efficacy and your sense of agency. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide. So let me get this straight.

A (79:50)

Your company has data here, there and.

B (79:52)

Everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere. Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create Smile to Business IBM. Season two of unrivaled basketball is here, and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Becker, Snafeeza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more. Take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher, and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max.

A (80:56)

You've reminded me because you just gave us the Latin of confidence. Yeah, I remember looking at the English dictionary definition of confidence, and one of them was the acknowledgment and appreciation of one's own abilities and skills.

B (81:09)

Oh, beautiful.

A (81:10)

Like, that's actually the definition. So confidence isn't a feeling.

B (81:13)

It's not a feeling.

A (81:14)

It's not a feeling. It's not an attitude. It's not a mindset. It's the acknowledgement and appreciation of what you've just said, of one's own skills and abilities and qualities. As you're saying, it's a bit more than that. When I looked, I think it might even say qualities. Actually. I could be wrong. I actually think it might actually say that. And now when I think about it, I'm like, of course. It's almost like when you're halfway up a mountain, you have to look back down and say, I've walked up halfway.

B (81:41)

As opposed to just looking at how much is left to go.

A (81:43)

Truly, if you just look at the top and you go, oh, God, that flag is so high. Oh, my gosh, there's so many. You know, there's such a steep climb. But if you look back and go, how did I get halfway up here? That didn't take that long. Oh, okay, I've done half. Okay, I've got another. And it's just so fascinating to me that we haven't been trained to do that, to actually acknowledge. And I say that to everyone when I'm speaking on stage sometimes and I'm working with someone in the audience who's having a really tough time with this. Something I like to remind everyone is each and every one of you have been through something really difficult. Each and every person has been through a extreme pain, whether it was the loss of a loved one, the divorce of family members, a breakup, the loss of a dream. Everyone. There is no human on the planet who hasn't been through something that for them was exceptionally difficult. And you're still here and you survived. And maybe you've even fallen in love again and have an amazing job and have found kindness and grace within yourself. And if you don't look at that as a monument and as a marker of how far you've come, nothing will ever fill that. You have to. There's nothing that will ever, ever, ever, ever fill that void. Because if you can't notice all the hard things you've done, you will continue to ignore all the hard things you're about to do and, and not even feel you're capable of them. And I love that you're giving people a practical methodology in the book and today in how to actually do that. And I agree with you, before you apply for that job, do this. Yeah, like this is more important than putting your resume together and all of that, because before that job interview, do this.

B (83:28)

I love how you've just touched on this idea of the challenges we've been through, which leads us into the third pillar. But before we get there, I want to come back to agency for a moment. So when people are applying for jobs, what's really valuable to know is that you don't have to have 100% of what's on the job description, but you have to be able to demonstrate if you make it to an interview that even though you don't have everything that's there, you have other transferable skills and attributes and qualities that you will apply to learn what you need to learn. So let me share an example with you. When I worked in banking, I applied for a very, very senior role that was probably three levels above where I was, and I was completely under qualified for it. I already had another job that had been offered to me, so I wasn't. This was kind of a side piece. I wasn't. Side piece. No, it was. It was an opportunity that, you know, I would have taken if I had it, but it meant I didn't have as much pressure. So I got to try something. So I went in there for the first round interview and it went really well. And I went back for the second round interview, which was the final one. And when I came to sit down with the head of this entire area, I sat down and he said to me, look, Sade, I need to tell you that we were not entirely sure. And as he was finishing, I jumped in and I said, it's very clear that I don't have all the roles or all the track record of having done this before. Yes. I don't have experience in all of these things. But let me tell you what I do bring. I have been in roles in the past where I haven't known how to do anything. And I very quickly got up to speed. I asked what I needed to ask. I learned, excelled, and I was able to deliver. In this example, I did this. In that example, I did this. I see this as being no different. Yes, I haven't been here, but I will bring that. And in fact, I consider the fact that I don't have experience a bonus because I'm not going to do things the way everyone else does. I'm going to ask the curious questions where everyone else just takes it as a given. And you know what he said to me? He said, I had planned for you to come in here today and me to tell you that it's not going to work out, but you've completely changed my mind. I now have confidence in you. We'd like to offer you the role. So then I asked for some time to think about it and I realized that actually the other one was better suited to me, but it was a lesson in how you shouldn't take yourself out of the game before the game begins.

A (85:45)

Yes, yes.

B (85:47)

Go in there with confidence, acknowledge if you don't know how to do the worst thing is to say, no, I've done it before. And then get caught out. Don't lie, but have the confidence, the conviction and in the fact that, hey, you have a lot of things you've done before, you can bring all of that right now. And in fact, maybe it gives you an edge.

A (86:03)

Yes.

B (86:04)

And then you want to tell them how you would spend your first 90 days. So give them your 90 day roadmap. So you would go in there and say, okay, so my first 30 days is going to be spent getting a lay of the land to understand how people do things, to understand the culture and to really have more of an observational role. The second 30 days is going to be me determining what are the gaps that I need to fill the quickest. I will be taking learning programs, I'll be doing training internally, maybe shadowing some people. Now when we get to our final 30 days in that 90 day period, that's when I'm implementing, that's when I'm developing a strategy for what my next 12 months is going to look like. That's how I'm going to ensure when I start this role, I'll be able to hit the ground running. And you just say it with so much clarity and conviction that they will be blown away.

A (86:51)

Yeah, yeah, It's. Yeah. And especially if you follow through, it's brilliant. Because women, when they see a resume, underestimate what they can do, and men overestimate what they can do. And I feel that a lot of those women won't apply for a job because they can do 7 out of the 10 things. Whereas the research shows a man will apply even if he can do only four or five out of the 10 things as a woman, in the example that you've just given as well, for your own life, like, what can women do? To not bow out before the race.

B (87:22)

Is to not bow out before the race. Essentially, don't take yourself out back yourself. And something that's really valuable here is what we also know when we've looked at neuroscience studies, is that women tend to evaluate rejection harder than men in the sense that we deem it to be much worse than, for example, a man may. So we have a tendency to really blow it out of proportion. And that's why we often don't want to try something if we don't think we're going to succeed. We're keeping ourselves safe again at the function of the brain. So if you can say to yourself, I'm not taking myself out of this race. I'll let them take me out if they don't think I'm suited. But I'm going to put my best foot forward. I'm also going to remind myself that even if it doesn't work out, that is not a verdict on me. I'm not going to make that mean something about me. I'm just going to learn and do better next time when you can frame it that way and also start to get more comfortable with rejection. So there's this idea of rejection therapy. Now, the principle behind it is that if you fear something, you're going to avoid something. If you fear a spider Jay, you're not going to go near spiders. But if you want to get over that phobia, what we do is a process of systematic desensitization, where first I'd show you a picture on my phone of a spider, then next I'd show you a video, then next I'd have a spider in a cage on the other side of the room, then it would come closer, then it would be right in front of you, then it wouldn't be in the cage, then it would be on your hand. And you're systematically. I mean this wouldn't all happen in a day, this would be over a number of sessions. But you're essentially telling your brain, hey, I can feel that fear, but I'm safe. And what happens is you desensitize yourself to that fear. And so by the time you've got the spider on your hand, you're not having that massive emotional reaction anymore. Same principle applies when it comes to things like rejection. If you can put yourself in low stakes rejections where you might apply for a bunch of roles knowing that you'll get rejected, great, do it. And then when you get rejected, you ask yourself, okay, am I making this mean something about myself? No. Fantastic. It doesn't mean anything about me. I'm going to try again next time. The more you do this, the more you learn that it's okay. You're still you, you still have value, you can still accept yourself, you still have agency and you can apply what you need to apply to achieve what you need to achieve. So that's one process to think about. So any women who are listening or even men who hold back, stop holding back, take the step. What's the worst that could happen?

A (89:48)

Did you see any other differences between men and women in your research?

B (89:51)

So I saw really clear differences. When I used to coach men and women, I, this is actually even before I was officially coaching. We don't even coach anymore, we don't do one to one, we do group sessions now, we'll work with companies. But when I coached, and I was actually coaching when I was still working in banking, so I would have people reach out to me, colleagues, co workers, peers, leaders, and ask me to coach them. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know what it meant to be a coach. I had no credentials, nothing. But I loved to help. So I started helping as much as I could. And what I discovered is that the women who would reach out to me would do so because they had self doubt. They were holding themselves back, they wanted to ask for a raise and they didn't have the courage to do so. The men who reached out to me for coaching wanted to excel, they wanted to perform better, they wanted to be more productive, they wanted to start a side business. And it was really, really clear that what they were seeking help for was very, very different. It's not that these men didn't have self doubt, but they were, they see in that environment it was a small sample and anecdotal entirely, but it seemed like they just wanted to get ahead and know how they could move faster. Whereas these women felt like they were stuck and they needed to get unstuck. So I found that really fascinating. I think part of it is that men typically don't like to share the doubt that they're experiencing. They see it as a weakness. Whereas women, we are just much more in tune with that. We acknowledge it, we share it, we're communicative. And then also potentially there's this element around sharing at work. So this is moving slightly in a different space, but still really valuable for anyone listening. A lot of women are branded as being emotional when they're insecure, when they have, you know, they feel a strong emotion in a meeting or something like this. Interestingly, a lot of men have very strong emotional reactions to things, but it's more anger or frustration or stress. They don't get labeled as emotional. So what some research has found is if you feel like you're being labeled as emotional because maybe you've got a lot of self doubt and the insecurities coming out in that moment, say out loud and to yourself, I'm just really passionate about this. I'm acting this way because I'm so committed to seeing this through, or I'm so committed to doing a good job. By shifting from emotional to passion or commitment, it fundamentally changes how people see you and how you see yourself. And so that's just a little tweak, a little hack that comes from the science around helping to. Again, it's almost like this labeling. You're not emotional, you are just passionate. You really care deeply about this thing. And then again, it allows you because you're shifting your attention to. Then focus on, okay, what am I doing next? So, Jay, now I think we should go into the third pillar. Are we ready to dive through?

A (92:32)

Yes.

B (92:33)

So the third pillar is what we call. Actually, before I tell you the third pillar, I'm going to share Bruno's story with you. So Bruno was an entrepreneur who reached out for help. He was running a business. It was doing really well. And yet he was one of these people who would always find a problem in every solution. He would always focus on what was wrong and it was always everyone else's fault. So the very first time that we met, he walked in, he was rushing, he was complaining about the weather and the traffic and the fact that it was so hot in the room. And he spoke for about five minutes, ranting. We hadn't even Shook hands or sat down. He was stuck in this litany of grievances. Finally, we sat down, we started speaking. And what I discovered is that Bruno has a number of common patterns. He was an endless complainer, chronic complaining about everything. Not only that, he was very resentful to other people. He felt like everyone else had an easier life than he did. Other people's business success was easier. He felt like he was constantly having to work harder. The third pattern was blame. He was constantly blaming other people for issues that he was responsible for. He was never willing to take ownership. And the fourth pattern is he would keep reliving past hurts. So past times that he had been hurt by somebody, someone had double crossed him, someone had treated him poorly, he kept sharing that story. Now, initially, when you're having a conversation with someone, you listen to these stories, of course you have empathy. By the tenth time they're telling you this story, within a few months, you realize they're stuck in a cycle that is keeping them stuck when it comes to complaining. And I'll share what the attribute is in a moment. But when it comes to complaining, we don't realize this is a sign of a lack of self trust, because we lack the trust that we have the ability to do something about the situation. So what do we do? Focus on what we cannot control and magnify it and complain about it. Because it's easier to complain than to take ownership and do something. When we keep reliving past hurts, things that have happened to us in the past, we're telling what's called a contamination story. Jay, you mentioned earlier how every single person has lived through hardship. Every single person. And depending on the story that they tell themselves about that hardship, it determines how they feel about that hardship, whether they internalize that hardship and make it mean something about them. And then whether they feel empowered in their lives or the victims. And I'll come back to that story in a moment or the, the example of the hardships, because I do have a really great case study for that. But coming back to Bruno, what we discovered is that he had a very low level of what we call autonomy. He felt like he didn't have the freedom to make choices. He felt like he didn't have the ability to influence his outcomes. And that's why he fixated on everything outside of his control. This relates to what's called a locus of control. So, Jay, you have a locus, I have a locus. Everyone listening will have a locus of control, which comes from the Latin word location, which means where do you place the control in your life. Do you believe that you can control things? And I'm not talking about control everything, because we know a lot of life is uncontrollable. But do you believe that you have some degree of influence or that life is happening to you because of external forces or other people or society or the government? If you have an external focus, external locus, you will focus on things outside of your control. What other people think, what other people do, what other people say, what the government is doing, what the media is doing, what your neighbor is doing, what your brother is doing, the future, the past. Things that you cannot control. And then how do you feel when you're focusing on those things? You feel powerless. Why? Because you are powerless. When you have an internal locus, you acknowledge that you can influence the outcome. You can shape your path. Again, not everything is controllable, but you focus on what you do, have control over your thoughts, your feelings, your interpretations, your actions. That is it. And when you focus on those things, guess what? You remarkably feel more powerful because you're focusing on things you can do. We also know when people get stuck. So where Bruno was when he was in that external locus, we see a lot of activity in the emotion centers of the brain, very little activity in the prefrontal regions, which is what we need for rationality and solutions and logical thinking. So if you ever find yourself feeling like you're complaining, feeling like a victim, and I'm not talking about real victims, I'm talking about those who victimize themselves. If anyone listening ever feels that, and the reality is it can happen, especially when unfair things happen in your life, you need to tell yourself, okay, instead of, why me? What now? What now? It's happened, I can't do anything about it. I'm not going to dwell on it. What am I going to do about it? And we have this great little exercise we love to share with people. It's called the I could and the I will list. So when people get to this state, if we encourage them to think about what you will do next, often what happens is that they start to think about all the things that they should have done or that they should do. And the language of should is very disempowering. It does one of two things. It either makes us feel like we're falling short or that we're being compelled against our will. And we don't like being told what to do. It's called reactance. And when we hear a should, often it's like a part of us is telling us what to do and we don't like it, we resist it. So we avoid the word shoulds and we move to coulds. Research has found that when you use the word could instead of should, it opens up divergent thinking.

A (98:17)

It's remarkable.

B (98:19)

It's a word. Sometimes when I look at some of this research, I think, how is something this simple so incredibly powerful? And it's because words create worlds inside us and outside of us. So you shift to could you grab a piece of paper and you split it into two. Two columns on the left. You write your I could list. What are all the things that you could do in the current circumstances? Whether you've just been laid off from your job, whether your business failed, whether your relationship has broken down. What are all the things you could do right now that allows you to feel a sense of okay, there are opportunities, there are possibilities here. You're also directing your attention, which reduces that emotion activation. Re engages your prefrontal regions. Next up, what will you do? Circle three things from your could do list and write them in your will do list. And you write, I will. Bang, bang, bang. And then you take action. You're hijacking that ruminative part of your brain and gearing yourself towards action, reminding yourself that no matter how bad things are, you always have a choice and you were choosing to take a step forward. So we shared all of this with Bruno and we had to go through this long process. But for Bruno, there was something else that was really affecting him and it was this contamination story he was telling. He kept telling people and himself, my life is so difficult. It's always been so difficult. It's always going to be so difficult. And it took a lot of time to shake that. We worked him through a process which I'll share in just a moment, but I want to share a story that we shared with Bruno and he loved it. And so I think all the listeners will appreciate this. So this is in the. When was it? Okay, so there's a 19 year old boy, he's a drummer and he loves drumming. This is a true story, by the way. I'm not making this up. He absolutely loves drumming and he's playing with his band for two years. They are working together, they're refining, they're so excited and they feel like they're just on the brink of something really phenomenal happening. It's at that moment that his manager calls him into the office and he sits down. He's not really sure why he's there and they say to him, Look, Peter, we're letting you go. We're replacing you with a different drummer. And he wasn't even really given an explanation. Just like that, his dreams of working with this band and taking them to stardom had just crumbled, and he didn't even understand why. And they said, we're replacing you with a drummer by the name of Ringo. This band was the Beatles.

A (100:43)

Whoa.

B (100:44)

Right before their global mega stardom, they replaced their drummer. Now Peter Best goes through a depression. He starts spiraling. He becomes resentful, he becomes suicidal. He's loading bread in the back of a delivery van while he's seeing the band that he worked with for two years on a global tour, becoming icons. But today, he tells a different story. He says, everything I've been through, happy and sad, good and bad, have made me who I am today. I wouldn't change any of it. He acknowledges that life would have been very different, but he chooses to tell a story that is centered around ownership, and he chooses to focus on what he has. His beautiful wife, his wonderful kids, his grandchildren. And he even says, he goes, if you dwell on all the bad things in your life and if you have regret or resentment, you will become a twisted and bitter old git. Which is a very English thing to say. It's very English, but it's so true. And he embodies this idea of the stories that we tell. So what he was referring to here is what we call, or what psychologists and researchers call a redemptive story. Dan McAdams has researched this for 40 years, and he's found there are essentially two stories that we tell. A redemptive story is one where bad things happened and we redeemed ourselves. We learned something, we grew stronger, we accepted it. A contamination story is where that story has become contaminated in your self identity, your self image. You carry those scars with you everywhere. And then you keep seeing it replayed because remember how you're showing up. The scars that you're carrying shape your expectation, which then influences what you see through expectation bias.

A (102:27)

Huge. That's huge.

B (102:28)

So that's another. And a lot of people say, well, how is this self doubt? And I love that this is considered part of your self image, because if you do not believe or trust that you have the ability to shape your outcomes or redefine your story, you're going to struggle. And that's why this third pillar is autonomy.

A (102:46)

There's something you said today that really struck me. I was saying that everyone's been through hard things, and the way you flip that really powerfully, and it was subtle, was that. But it's how you feel about how you got through those hard things that define how they impact you. And that is so true and powerful. Like, that really, really hit me and resonated with me. I don't think I've heard it being said like that before, because like you said, you talked about your parents divorce. And even if it was, even though it was amicable and you had a loving family, your take was, what else could I have done? So even though you've been through a hard thing, you see it as your fault in some way, or you see it as something you could have done better. And therefore, thinking about that hard thing and getting through it doesn't make you feel stronger. It makes you feel weak and insignificant and whatever else you would use to describe yourself. Because your memory of it and your story of it is, I failed.

B (103:52)

Yes.

A (103:53)

Your story of it isn't, I'm still alive and I still survived. I'm still good. And that is magnificent as a. As a case study. Because that's why people's difficult times don't inspire them. Because their difficult times remind them that they're a failure.

B (104:09)

Yes.

A (104:09)

Because that's the story that they built around.

B (104:11)

Yes. And we also know that when you're remembering a memory, you're not actually remembering the first thing, like the first time that it happened.

A (104:19)

Yeah.

B (104:20)

You're remembering the last memory you had of it.

A (104:22)

Yes.

B (104:23)

And this is why actually memory is so fallible. They've done some studies where they've looked at suggestion, and they've had people witness a crime, and then they get asked to report on the crime. And let's say there was a yellow car that was speeding by. The person asking questions would say, how fast do you think the red car was going? And because they're not thinking about the color of the car, they'll report a speed. And then the next time they ask them, that person will say, yeah, it was a red car.

A (104:50)

Yeah.

B (104:50)

And so we need to be so mindful every time we relive something. And this is why overthinking, resentment, complaining is so dangerous. We're rewiring this into our system and also just remembering the last time we remembered it. But you know what's beautiful about that? It means that you can actually change the meaning you're applying to these events. And then when you start remembering the new meaning, you start to fundamentally change the memory.

A (105:16)

Yes. Yes.

B (105:18)

You mentioned something that I love sharing about, which is the bad experiences that happen to us. The unfairness, the colossal pressure that we face, the whatever it is, the heartbreak, the early death, the challenges at work, business failure. A lot of these things may lead to ptsd. If something is traumatic enough, it will lead to ptsd. And a lot of people in their minds think traumatic experience, ptsd. But did you know that there's quite a large number of people who never experience ptsd? They experience post traumatic growth. We do not talk about this enough.

A (105:54)

I've never heard about it.

B (105:55)

I've never heard of it either until I came across the research. There is a really large number of people who don't go through the traumatic negative experience. They experience growth from that traumatic experience. And then when they've had a look at what is causing the growth, there's one quality that they have, it's curiosity. They don't just accept the situation for what it was and then internalize it for what it was. They ask questions about the situation. Could I have changed this? What could I have done differently? How did I feel when that was happening? What if I were to approach it this way? They go through almost a process of self inquiry, almost like coaching themselves to try and determine, okay, what actually happened and what was my function and can I change my. My interpretation? And they use it to get better rather than become bitter. And that is a powerful reminder to us that we can reclaim that autonomy. So how do we do it? How do we change these stories? It's a process called narrative reidentification. It comes from narrative therapy. It's been around for decades and it's been proven to be highly, highly effective. It just takes time. Essentially what you want to do is determine what is the story you're telling yourself. So in Bruno's case, his story was that my life is more difficult than everyone else's. And when we got deeper, it's because when he was growing up, he had an older sister who was the golden child, did everything right, achieved amazing things. He was constantly compared to her. And he wasn't given freedom to make decisions because his parents had assumed that he's going to mess up. So they told him, this is what you do because you're never going to be like her, so we will create your path for you. So he never had a sense of autonomy, which led him to constantly focus on things outside of his control because he had nothing that he felt he could control. So we had to work through that process. And this was really confronting for him because he naturally would resist. But we worked through it and he was open to it. Then the Next step is, okay, Bruno, is that story serving you? Genuinely, is it serving you? And it took him a while to acknowledge that, no, it wasn't. He doesn't want to feel that way. So then the next step is, okay, how would you rewrite this story in a way that served you? What would you tell someone else? Let's go through that process. So you essentially rewrite your story, focusing on what you learned, how you grew, and how you became stronger using that curiosity. And this took a little while for him to get comfortable with that and work through it. But then every time I would ask him, tell me your story again. Tell me again. Focus on what you learned. And it was remarkable seeing how he changed every part of him changed. The way he would turn up, the way he initially would spend five minutes complaining at the beginning of a session to suddenly be smiling, sitting down, ready to get going. And this is because when you re edit your narrative, now, we're not saying you change the facts. You cannot change the facts. What has happened has happened. But studies have found that the real power comes not in changing the history, but in changing the meaning that you have applied to that, what it means for you, how you've interpreted it. And you can edit your story at any point in time, which is the most beautiful thing. So. And this is a process that I actually take people through in the book and Bruno stories in there to work through it, because a big part of it is, okay, great, we know this, but how do you do it? And that's essentially why I wanted to write this book, to help people have this guide to step by step, work through these processes to strengthen these attributes. And when you can do that for autonomy, you suddenly feel more personally powerful.

A (109:20)

Yeah, because we just make it out.

B (109:22)

Like everything's our fault completely or everything's out to get us.

A (109:25)

Yeah, yeah. And it's. And. And there's enough evidence to prove that. Yes, if you're looking for it, yes.

B (109:43)

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business.

A (110:04)

IBM.

B (110:09)

Season two of unrivaled basketball is here, and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball, season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy tips off January 5th on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max. Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here. And hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

A (110:37)

This week on the podcast, I am.

B (110:39)

Sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen.

A (110:49)

Classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer.

B (110:54)

What role would I be play? You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth. Okay, that's really sweet.

A (111:05)

I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad?

B (111:10)

I'm not Mr. Bennett.

A (111:11)

Here, listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app.

B (111:18)

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

A (111:32)

We know that there's things we can control and there's things we can't control. But when you were saying you caught, you were calling it the external locus. When your mind space is locked in the external locus, you feel powerless because you are.

B (111:48)

Yeah.

A (111:48)

And that I love that connection. Because if we believe we're powerless, it's because we're finding all the evidence that we're powerless. So if I considered the weather today and your mood and my success online today as a dictation of how good I am, then I'm going to feel powerless because I actually am powerless by the three metrics that I've chosen to do it by. So it's not even that your story is inaccurate. Your story is just wrongly focused.

B (112:20)

Completely. Your attention is on the wrong thing.

A (112:21)

Yeah. And so just that simple shift back to say, okay, let me actually only measure myself by things I can control. And I don't know why we all believe that we can control someone else's mood, our boss's mood, the weather, the. The timeline, the schedule. I just don't know why we feel so strongly that we can control the things we can't and that we can't control the things we can.

B (112:44)

Because it's easier to do that, but it's much harder to focus on what we can control because then we feel empowered and we have to do something about it. Remember, the brain. The brain likes certainty, and it wants to use the least amount of effort possible. And if it gets you to focus on everything outside of your control, you're not using your prefrontal regions, which require a lot of metabolic energy. And so, great, it's easier for the brain. We go down these habit paths of overthinking. And catastrophizing. And then we don't have to do anything about it. We don't have to take the step into discomfort. We don't have to risk the rejection or the criticism by trying the thing. There's this beautiful analogy of a cow and a bison, which I came across and I loved and I had to put it in the book. And I want to share it because it's very short, but it's so poignant to what we're talking about. So cows and bison are very similar in terms of, you know, their animal history. Very, very similar to their cousins in the animal world. But they have a very, very different approach to how they weather storms and challenges that they might experience, like a physical storm. So cows have been observed to huddle together, usually under a tree, but also they generally walk away from the storm. So they'll walk with the wind, and then what happens is they end up receiving the brunt of the storm when the storm eventually catches up to them. Bison, on the other hand, have been observed to walk towards a storm. They walk into the wind, which counterintuitively means they generally pass the brunt of the storm. They get through it much quicker. So what is the insight that we learned from this? Well, there are two mindsets. There is the bison mindset, where you see the bad thing, you acknowledge the bad thing. You approach the bad thing knowing that there's light on the other side. Or the cow mindset. You avoid the bad thing, you run away from the bad thing. You don't want to own up to the bad thing or take ownership over it. You run away, and then it'll just get worse and worse and worse. Some people don't like the, you know, thinking of themselves as a cow. So you can think of something else, some other animal, a gazelle, a Labrador, whatever it is. But we need to be asking, how do we embody more of that bison mindset?

A (114:48)

Yeah.

B (114:48)

How do we just acknowledge, you know, life is hard. Life is really hard. And you get to choose how you're going to show up to that hard. Are you going to try and avoid it? Because what we also know, part of this pillar is recognizing that the more you expose yourself to hard things. So this goes back to your story, Jay, about how you just embrace the discomfort. And now you love it. The more you can expose yourself to discomfort. So when we're experiencing discomfort, it's the brain's way of telling us, hey, this is uncertain. I don't like it. Go back and play it safe, because then I don't have to use as much energy. Right. But if you can acknowledge that that discomfort is often what triggers neurotrophins in the brain, which are these proteins that help us learn things and develop new pathways in the brain. And it's through discomfort that we get that way. And that's why learning something new is uncomfortable, because it's triggering parts in the brain. But the more you do that, the easier it gets. And then that initial discomfort is so much less the next time and then less the next time. You almost reinterpret what you feel. Hey, I feel this way because I care. I feel this way because it's excitement, not fear. And that idea of being the bison, stepping into the discomfort, putting yourself out there. A lot of people talk about luck. Oh, I've got to share one more story with you. It's from Christopher Nolan. Such a good one.

A (116:00)

I love. You know, Nolan's my favorite.

B (116:02)

Brilliant. Okay, so you're going to resonate with this. You're going to resonate. So Christopher Nolan, for anyone not so familiar, he's the incredible director of Oppenheimer and Inception. And what else has he done?

A (116:12)

Dark Knight trilogy.

B (116:13)

Exactly. Phenomenal.

A (116:14)

Siege. Yeah. Memento goes on and on.

B (116:17)

He's brilliant. And a lot of people.

A (116:18)

Interstellar, too.

B (116:19)

Oh, interstellar. That's right. A lot of people will say he is phenomenally lucky with the weather when he shoots.

A (116:26)

Interesting. Okay.

B (116:27)

Phenomenally lucky because he's.

A (116:28)

I didn't know this. Tell me about it.

B (116:29)

Incredible, incredible scenes with just the weather being exactly what it needed to be. Like, there was this one scene in Inception, not Inception, in Oppenheimer, where they were doing the detonation of the first nuclear bomb, and they had this incredible, dark, ominous storm that was rolling in, and they were able to film and get this incredible scene that created cinematic magic. There was so much drama. Now, Nolan, in interviews, he rejects the idea that he's lucky. He says, I am not lucky. I am incredibly unlucky. But we have made a pact and a commitment that when we go out there, we shoot no matter what the weather conditions are. And that allows us to capitalize when the right weather is there.

A (117:11)

Wow.

B (117:12)

So what is the lesson that we take from this? Nolan's team has created an environment where they embrace the discomfort of not knowing what weather they're going to have. Some days it rains, some days it's sunny. Some days it's great. Some days it's not. They film regardless, so they're exposing themselves to that discomfort so that when the opportunity arises, like that amazing storm. They know how to handle it. They've been in similar situations. They are prepped, they are primed. And we call this earned luck. So it's not just, oh, my goodness, we got lucky. No, we earned that luck. We created. What's his name is. There's a tech entrepreneur who calls it a luck surface area. You can increase your luck surface area and the chances that you will receive good luck by exposure to discomfort, visibility, putting yourself out there, putting your hand up in the meeting, applying for the job that you think you're not going to get. You don't know unless you try. And that's a sign of your autonomy. And so strengthening that attribute is so important for that state of big trust. So you can start to achieve the things you want to achieve, get the opportunities that you really seek.

A (118:18)

It's amazing. Shout out to talked about acceptance.

B (118:20)

We have.

A (118:21)

We've talked about agency. We talked about autonomy.

B (118:23)

Yes.

A (118:24)

I love that you taught. You taught me something about Nolan that I didn't know because I'm a big Nolan geek. So I love that. What's the fourth one?

B (118:30)

The fourth one is what we call adaptability, and it specifically relates in the context of doubt and big trust. It relates to your ability to adapt to your emotions. We cannot necessarily control emotions. We can guide them, we can harness them, but they will often come in response to a stimulus.

A (118:47)

Yeah.

B (118:48)

So how do you adapt to it?

A (118:49)

So for that, what I want to do is I want to give you a series of scenarios where I think you are having emotions.

B (118:55)

Okay.

A (118:56)

To help you answer it. Sound good?

B (118:57)

Yeah.

A (118:58)

Okay, great. All right. Because I think this is what I was saving these for, because I feel they're moments in time that all of us experience where there is an emotional reaction and we need to know how to adapt.

B (119:11)

Yes. Brilliant.

A (119:11)

So you're about to speak up in a meeting and your brain floods with what if I mess up?

B (119:18)

So we call this the three second spiral. Stop. So when this happens, you want to acknowledge. So firstly, take a breath, take a moment, take a breath. Three seconds. Breathe in. Second step is to acknowledge that your brain is just doing what it's meant to do. It's just wired to magnify everything that could go wrong. But it's okay. There's no physical danger here. So you need to remind yourself nothing terrible is going to happen. The fourth. Are we up to the third step? I think we're up to the third step. The third step is to keep your. Whatever you're going to say, keep it as short as possible. And the reason why I say this is because your brain is magnifying what could go wrong. Because you probably haven't done this many times. It doesn't really have the proof points that you can do this and do it well. And if you try and go out there and the first thing you want to say is a five minute monologue about you're going to fluster and lose and then you're going to have a negative evidence point. So keep it really short. You might validate what someone else has said. That's a great idea, Jay. Or I'd like to build on what Simon said. Or Maria. Can you repeat that one more time? I want to make sure my notes have it correctly. Really low stakes, easy. You're just allowing that energy to come out. Once you've done that and you've got the proof point, the next step is, okay, now I'm going to really share what I wanted to share. Ask that longer question, share my perspective. I know I can do it because I just did it before. I'm also going to breathe again. I'm going to remind myself there's no physical threat. And then I'm going to speak. You want to make sure that you're not speaking fast because when our emotions are in overdrive, we get nervous, we speed up our pace, which then can make people zone out or it undermines our credibility. So speak slowly, have a pause. Importantly, make eye contact. That's what allows people to stay engaged and that's how you can harness your emotion in that moment.

A (120:59)

Got it. Great. Adaptability. I love that. All right, this one. If you're in a meeting and a co worker takes credit for your work, what do you do?

B (121:09)

So you're in a meeting and that co worker takes credit. There are two scenarios. Either it's happened before or this is the first time. Let's start with if it's the first time. You might feel that negative emotion bubble, that unfairness, that inequality, that this is not right. What I encourage you to do, firstly determine whether you speaking up now is what you want to do. Sometimes it's not even worth it. Let it go. But if this is something that you really need to get recognition for, you put in a lot of work, you really feel like this is important, call it out immediately. So Jay, let's say you're taking credit for my work, I would jump in. Even if I have to cut Jay off a little bit, that's fine. I'd say what Jay's trying to explain is that he worked on the initial proposal, I then jumped in and I worked with clients, and we got the whole project going, and it was a fantastic team effort, and we're really proud of what we've created. You immediately jump in there, add you in. You don't say, that's not right, Jay. I was involved. You guide the conversation, bring it back to the team, and then make it about the impact or the effort at the end. And that way, it's a polite way to just remind the person, hey, you're on notice. I was involved in this too. Now, if it keeps happening, you want to have a conversation with that person, which is hard, because, again, if you lack acceptance, you're also going to feel very insecure. What are they going to say? What if they're going to hate me? What if it's going to damage their relationship? Have a conversation with them in a private environment, and you would say, hey, Jay, I've noticed. So you make it about an observation. I've noticed that in the last three meetings. When you have. So it's. When you. When you have taken credit for the work that we've been involved in. When you. I feel. I feel like my contributions are not valued or appreciated. And I would like. And I would like us to be a part of a team that recognizes each other. Okay, so when you. I feel and I would like. Then what you want to do at the end is, how do you feel about that? Or what's going on for you when you take credit for this work, are you aware of it? Allow them to speak, and then again, you're politely highlighting to them, hey, I'm aware that you're taking my credit. It's kind of not okay. It's happened before. How are we going to address this if it keeps happening? You would have a private conversation and say, look, if this does keep happening, I will mention it. Every meeting that comes up where you do take the credit, I will jump in and say, hey, this was me too. How do we make this work for the sake of our relationship, for the sake of our collaboration? So you want to focus on assertiveness. Tone is going to be important. You don't want them to become combative, but also giving them an opportunity to defend themselves if they weren't aware of it.

A (123:44)

Yeah.

B (123:44)

You know, giving them the benefit of the doubt, which helps you feel like you're not going in there combative. You're going in there with a collaborative view.

A (123:51)

Yeah, that's good. And hopefully, if you're dealing with a slightly mature individual, they'll be able to receive it. Well, exactly. I think that's half the battle that you're working with someone who just, you know that to that if someone just got fired or lost their job, what would you encourage them to do?

B (124:09)

I could, I will list. So if you just lose your job or you just got fired and you're generally what will happen is you will feel very low autonomy because these things are completely out of your control. You might also feel a lack of agency. Oh no, I got fired. Does that mean my skills are not valuable? You might then experience a lack of acceptance. Oh, no, I'm a failure. I'm never going to be good enough. And then the adaptability is going to be going crazy because your emotions are firing. So what will help you is the first step is the autonomy piece. Right. Okay. What are all the things that I could do right now? Well, I could reach out to someone. I could ask the interviewer for feedback. I could update my LinkedIn. I could, you know what, I could take a day off and just process this and then I will. What will you do? You might be like, you know what, I'm going to take a day off to process this because this was a lot. Or I'm going to take a week off, I'm going to take a month off, whatever. But remind yourself, you can take an action and then take the action and then make your plan. But fundamentally, if we bring it back to big trust, you have to remind yourself you are not your work. It was a business decision. It is not a reflection of your value. Maybe let's say that you were an underperformer and it was a reflection of your performance. You still say to yourself, this is data that I'm going to process and get better next time. Next one agency. I can improve my skills. I can go work for an organization that values the skills that I already have. I can learn what I need to autonomy. What am I going to focus on right now to keep moving forward? And then that adaptability, what else do I need to do to make sure that my emotions are in check? And a lot of it is reframing. So instead of saying I am anxious because remember this idea of labeling anything that comes after I am, we internalize it feels like it's fixed. Instead of, I am anxious, I'm noticing a thought that I'm feeling anxious because this thing happened. Identify the stimulus. Instead of I am a failure, I'm noticing a thought that's telling me I'm a failure because I just lost my job. You're creating what's called cognitive diffusion, separating yourself from the thought, reminding you you don't have to believe everything you think, which also reminds you you don't have to believe everything that your mind tells you to. And that can be really powerful.

A (126:19)

I love how your 4A's just fully encapsulate the entire process and give us something to turn to at all times is to quickly diagnose which one we're struggling with before the domino effect happens, toppling each other own. Yeah, shot it. Today's been. I have learned so much from you. I feel like you've blown my mind with research. Nolan fascinated me with stories. So many great practical tips and it's all inside this new book. Big trust, Rewire self doubt, find your confidence and fuel success by Shahdazarai. Pre order your copy. You will have it for the new year so that you can start your new year with less self doubt. Find your confidence, start trusting yourself. Please pre order this book right now. As an author who knows how hard it is to write books, authors put in so much time, so much effort to put together. As you can tell, Sade is one of the most researched, most well read and, you know, comprehensive thinkers that we have. Like that's, it's such a, it's such a brilliant tapestry of a step by step process of what people can actually apply in their lives. And so it'd mean the world to me if you go and support her book. Go and pre order it. Pre orders help authors a lot too. So just want to put it out there that if you've been, if you found value in today's conversation, which you'd be crazy to think you haven't, then please go and pre order the book. Sade. We end every episode with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum. So shade is. All right, These are your final five. Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

B (127:56)

My mum always encouraged me, if you want it, ask for it.

A (128:00)

Great advice.

B (128:01)

So I asked my husband to marry me.

A (128:02)

Did you?

B (128:03)

I did.

A (128:04)

Tell us that story.

B (128:05)

That's more than a sentence already.

A (128:06)

You can go now. You've got my attention.

B (128:09)

So my incredible husband, Faisal, he's also co author. So a lot of the ideas, I wrote it, but a lot of the ideas are our ideas. When I met him, I had a deep knowing. It wasn't even an emotional thing. It was a deep knowing that, okay, this is the person I want to spend my life with and Then we got to a point where I said to him, it was very quick. It was. It all happened in a year. We met, we were married within about nine months. I said to him, I can see us having an amazing life together. It was basically like, look, this might be forward, but I can see us having an amazing life together. That was essentially me proposing. And then he said, how do we make that happen? And that was him accepting, and that was it. So there was no, will you marry me? Getting on one knee. It was just a conversation.

A (128:51)

That's great.

B (128:51)

Making sure we're both on the same page. And then it happened so quickly. And then from that moment to when we were married was like three months.

A (128:56)

I love that.

B (128:57)

Yeah. So if you wanted to ask. Because, in fact, Steve Jobs shares this story of how, when he was young, he was about 12 years old and his neighbor was the head of Hewlett Packard, and one day he just asked, he said, can I come in and learn some things? Can I just come into the office? And he said it was that ability that he had to just ask. Because 99.7% of people will not ask. They will wait for someone to tap themselves on the shoulder to give them the opportunity. They will wait to get the promotion or get given the raise. It doesn't work like that. We don't live in that world. Especially in the context of work, where studies have found that especially in big organizations, managers don't remember at least 60% of what their teams do. They either don't know or don't remember. Which means if your manager is not aware of what you're delivering, you need to ask for what you want and demonstrate it by way of tangible value. Right, here's what I'm delivering, here's what I'm asking. So we have to ask. So that was wonderful advice from my mum.

A (129:54)

I love that. Question number two, what's the worst advice you ever heard or received?

B (129:58)

The worst advice that I got was when I worked in banking. I had someone say to me, it was a manager at the time. He said, I think you should just go into roles where you help people. Now, the reason why I found that bad advice at the time is he was saying it because he was trying to undermine me. I was in a highly strategic role. He was basically encouraging me not to pursue that and to just go and help people. Now, if someone says that to you in a bank, it's not a good thing. The reason why that was bad advice is that sometimes we get advice. This is such a long response. Sorry, Sometimes we get advice from people that they come out as if they're caring about you and they have your best interests at heart. But really it's discouragement framed as advice, as was this one. Now, little does he know, my entire career now is helping people. So I took that advice and I ran with it and I'm so grateful for it. But in that environment, that was terrible advice to give somebody.

A (130:55)

Yeah.

B (130:56)

So I think it's so important when it comes to advice, acknowledge that people are only going to tell you things based on their frame of reference. So what they would do if they were you or they might be trying to discourage you.

A (131:06)

Yeah.

B (131:07)

So you can take it if you want to. You can leave it if you want to. I want to share just one other thing. It's not a question. I think we've finished the five questions right. Because we've gone over others, too. I have one other thing that I want to share here which is not related to these two, but I have to say it because it's so powerful and simple. What we found is when people go on the journey of growth, any journey of growth, like people who have gone through the big trust framework and seen those transformative impacts in their lives, they get comments from those around them. Like, what is the most common comment someone would say? If someone's been on this journey of growth, there's two words. Any ideas?

A (131:40)

If they've been on your journey of.

B (131:42)

Growth, any journey of growth, not only. It can be on any journey of personal development, growth.

A (131:46)

And what would they say to describe that journey?

B (131:48)

Well, what other people say to them is usually you've changed. And when they say you've changed, it's generally not coming from a positive, supportive place. It's coming from a place of, I don't like how you're outshining me right now. You're no longer in this mold that I have for you and it's making me uncomfortable. Never allow someone else's discomfort to prevent you from going on your journey. Those who are meant to be with you on the journey will join you on the journey. And this is really hard. When it's family or loved ones or close friends. The best response in that moment, rather than allowing it to undermine your sense of self, trust and doubt your choices, is two words, Actually, three words. Thanks for noticing. Thanks for noticing. Growth has been a priority for me. It's awesome that it's working. You flip something that would otherwise be a negative into an absolute positive, which does two things. It makes you feel really good about It. But also from their perspective, it suddenly flips them to think, oh, maybe I can do that too. Growth has been a priority for her. Maybe I can make growth my priority. And it opens them up. It almost gives them permission to do the same. So when someone says, you've changed, respond with, thanks for noticing.

A (132:58)

I love that.

B (132:59)

That's a great, powerful. Isn't it?

A (133:00)

Yeah, it's such a great response because it's also showing that you see it as a positive rather than most of us. I think also when you are in your growth journey, your initial reaction is also, what do you mean? Why? Is there bad thing?

B (133:13)

No, I'm the same person.

A (133:14)

Because you're still trying to. You're still trying to grapple with it, and you're still trying to fit and grow at the same time. Whereas when you are. When you're fully grown, you won't care and you'll be like, oh, okay, cool. Like, thank you. You know, thanks for noticing. And so, yeah, no, I love that response. It's brilliant. And. And you're spot on that, I think, also half the time there's a. There's a brilliant piece of wisdom called Hanlon's Razor, and it says, handon says, don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.

B (133:46)

Beautiful.

A (133:47)

And it's one of my favorite freeing. I'm writing about it in my book right now. It's one of the most freeing things I've come across. Because our mind has this thing to turn everything everyone says to us into malice. And that person literally said it as a passing comment. They kind of thought of it for two minutes. They said something, but it wasn't that deep. They're not obsessing over it, but we take it as like, oh, my God, they think I've changed and they don't. They hate who I've become.

B (134:11)

Especially if we struggle with big trust on any of these elements.

A (134:14)

Totally. And the truth is, it's not malice. It's just someone's ignorance.

B (134:17)

Completely stupidity.

A (134:18)

It's someone's lack of time, it's someone's lack of capacity, it's someone's busyness. And it's, you know, and it's funny because it's almost like when we say, you've changed to someone, we think we have good intentions. And when someone says it to us, you know, it comes with that. So I love that. Thanks for noticing. Because it doesn't come from a place of revenge. It doesn't come a place from proving yourself. It doesn't come because otherwise we're like, I've changed. Oh, no, no, I'm still the same. I'll prove it to you. Like, let's. Let's go back out to the party or whatever. And it's like, no, I don't want to do that anymore. And so I love. Thanks for noticing. Because it isn't revenge. It isn't proving yourself. It isn't validation. It isn't tell me how I want to. It's not looking for praise and approval. So it's brilliant.

B (134:59)

You know, I love how you mentioned Hanlon's razor. Have you heard of Wisiati? Dan Kahneman?

A (135:03)

No.

B (135:04)

So Wisiati.

A (135:04)

I love Daniel Kahneman. You like naming all my favorite people.

B (135:07)

Great.

A (135:08)

Yeah.

B (135:08)

No, he's brilliant. His work is so phenomenal and something that fundamentally changed my life. And I think if you can also grasp this idea, it will fundamentally change your life. It's very similar to Hanslen's razor, but just a little bit broader. Wussiati is an abbreviation for or an acronym for. What you see is all there is. And what he was describing in his book, Thinking Fast and Slow, is that when we have an interaction with someone, we will draw conclusions about that person and that situation from that two second interaction. Because what we see is all there is in that environment. But actually there is so much more that led to that situation. Maybe that person was having a really bad day. Maybe that person's relationship just broke down and you're meeting them right at that point. Maybe they're in pain. And yet we have this one second, two second, one minute interaction. Our brain goes into what you see is all there is, and you forget that there's so much else. And this leads to what's called fundamental attribution error. Okay, so, Jay, when you're driving on the street and someone cuts you off, do you usually have certain feelings towards that person who cut you off?

A (136:11)

Of course.

B (136:11)

Of course. Right. And you make certain assumptions about their personality. Oh, my gosh. Careless, ignorant, blah, blah. That's called fundamental attribution error. Because if you accidentally cut someone off.

A (136:22)

Totally.

B (136:23)

No, I wasn't even paying attention.

A (136:25)

My friends struggling, like I'm trying to help them out. Yeah.

B (136:27)

So that idea of someone cutting you off, what you see is all there is. That must be a reflection of their attributes and character and personality.

A (136:33)

Yeah.

B (136:34)

But what Kahneman encourages us to do, which is similar to Hanlon's razor, is get a broader picture what else could have been going on for this person. And I love it. When you're driving Because I tend to get. I don't get road rage. Not at all. But I do find sometimes if there's a lot of traffic and I'm in a rush, I tend to get into the. What you see is all there is. So if someone's rushing or speeding, I will go through and think, okay, what are the three things that could be happening for this person? Maybe they're busting to use the toilet, or their wife has just gone into labor, or they've just heard that their kid's been abducted. You don't know. Right? And it's beautiful because it just reminds you that you're not the center of the universe. It feels like you are, but you're not. And when you realize that you're not, it gives you this sense of. I find it very empowering to know that we're actually part of something much bigger than just us. And I. Me. My.

A (137:22)

Yeah, absolutely. I love it. Okay.

B (137:24)

I love it.

A (137:24)

Question number three. What is a line of self talk that you used most often for yourself?

B (137:32)

Care less. Care more.

A (137:33)

Oh, okay, explain.

B (137:34)

Okay, so I. We post content, and we have since 2020, basically, during the pandemic we started. And I still find. So we do it ourselves. We don't have a team that does our posting. It's something we're happy to do because we. We like the process of being connected. Every time I'm about to post something, I have a voice in my head. What are people going to think? Are they going to like this? They're going to think, you're silly, you're not articulate enough, you're not credible enough. I literally have to say to myself, care less. Care less about what people think. And so I used to just do the care less. And that was helpful. But then Faisal, my husband and business partner, he said, okay, it's great that you've got the care less, but what are you caring more about?

A (138:10)

Oh, so good.

B (138:12)

Don't just focus on what you, you know, the kind of negative. Oh, I'm going to care less. What are you focusing more on? So now I say, okay, care less about what people think. Care more about being of service, being of value, being of impact.

A (138:23)

I love that.

B (138:24)

Leaving a positive legacy. That's brilliant and it's beautiful. And it's something you can use in the moment when you're about to step onto stage, when you're about to approach a stranger in a bar, when you're about to have that conversation about your pay raise. Care less about the outcome. Care more about making this person feel seen or demonstrating my value. It's beautiful and so simple.

A (138:43)

Yeah, I love that. I also love it because it's the careless part. Makes sense. And also one thing I realized over time was also caring more about the people who left qualitative, positive feedback.

B (138:54)

Oh, yeah.

A (138:55)

Like learning to actually care more. Because it's so easy to skip past beautiful comments where everyone's like, you are so articulate, Shade, you are so credible, Sade, you are so knowledgeable. We ignore it and you kind of just go, yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever. And. And that care more, care less works well there too. I'm not saying only to care about things. When people say nice things about you, I think it's important to be able to listen to criticism and negativity and feedback and. Of course. But I think the idea of we don't receive. We don't receive praise with nearly as much depth as we'd receive criticism.

B (139:29)

No.

A (139:30)

And that is a, you know, a huge issue for us as humans where we don't know how to receive a compliment, we don't know how to receive a pat on the back, but if someone says something negative to us, we know how to receive that. We will hold on to that for the rest of our lives and carry around wherever we are.

B (139:44)

You know why?

A (139:45)

Yeah, go on.

B (139:46)

Because of the scars that we carry. So when someone is giving you praise, it's because your self image doesn't feel it deserves it, and so it doesn't internalize it. But when someone criticizes you, criticism only hurts if you deeply, deep down believe that about yourself. And it all comes down to where you are on these four pillars. So if you receive criticism and you take it personally, it's often because you have a low level of acceptance. And deep down you don't feel that you're worthy. You're trying to appear a certain way or prove something. And so what that person says hurts so much because it is cutting at that deep wound that you have.

A (140:22)

Yeah.

B (140:23)

And so again, it's this idea of, yes, as you say, how do we acknowledge more of the positive things that come through and use that to reshape our identity, reshape our self image.

A (140:32)

Yeah, absolutely. I love that that scar reset you shared at the beginning.

B (140:37)

Isn't it fascinating?

A (140:38)

Yeah, it's so good. Question number four. How do you define your current purpose?

B (140:43)

Someone once asked me, what is the one word I want people to say about me at my funeral? And without thinking, I said that she cared. And then I thought about it a bit more and I probably would have had all these other things. But I think the fact that that came through so clearly for me when I didn't think about it, my purpose is to live a life where I'm caring about other people. And that looks like me being present for them, me serving them through the work that we do, helping them through our programs, through this book. It's fundamentally because I care about people overcoming what is holding them back, and I care about them living fulfilling and successful and meaningful lives. And so everything I do is aligned behind that. What about you, Jay?

A (141:25)

What's that?

B (141:26)

How would you define your purpose in just a few words?

A (141:28)

The way I've chosen to describe it right now is that to make the world happier, healthier, and more healed.

B (141:34)

Beautiful.

A (141:35)

And the word that I really lean to in all of those is healing. I value healing more than happiness and health. I do value equally as healing, But I think even in our health, we're always healing. And so I think the challenge is, my take is everyone's hurt in some way, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and everyone's healing. And so if we can help create a more healed world, a healing world, actually even more than healed, because healed means it's done. And so a healing world is a good world. And so if we can. If I can help, if I can be useful in and of service to helping people heal in whichever area they're struggling in through people like yourselves and the wonderful experts and people who come and share their stories on the show, then that, to me, is the world that I want to live in, is a world that is healing always, because we're always going to feel pain and always going to get hurt. So then there has to be an equal focus on healing.

B (142:30)

That's beautiful. And I love it that it almost going back to the idea of the scar, it's like also healing the scars that we have.

A (142:36)

Yeah, it's healing. And it's. That's what you're gonna have to do because. Yeah, you're healing your self image according to, you know, what you were saying earlier.

B (142:44)

Yeah. Beautiful.

A (142:45)

Fifth and final question.

B (142:47)

I kind of don't want you to ask it because I don't want this to end.

A (142:49)

I can literally talk to you for another three hours. This is the fifth and final question. If you could create one law, and we asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

B (143:05)

It would be to leave each person better than you found them.

A (143:11)

Yeah, it's a good law.

B (143:12)

That'd be it.

A (143:13)

Yeah. Each place, each person, each. Each animal, each meeting, each team, each. Yeah, it would be so much better. Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. We've never had that on the show. Sade Zara, thank you so much today. The book is called Big Trust. Rewire self doubt, find your confidence and fuel success. Pre order your copy right now. Follow Sade on Instagram, TikTok across all of social media if you don't already. You can absolutely love her content. She's as articulate online and offline. I can't wait for you to read this book. I can't wait for you to practice these principles. It truly is a masterclass. And Sade, I'm so grateful to you. So thankful that we got to spend this time together.

B (143:51)

Thank you for having me.

A (143:52)

I hope this is the first of many times you'll come on the show.

B (143:54)

I hope so. I hope so. Thank you. It's been such a treat.

A (143:56)

Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll love my conversation with Dr. Joe Dispenza on why stress and overthinking negatively impacts your brain and heart and how to change your habits that are on autopilot. Listen to it right now. How many times do we have to forget? Until we stop forgetting and start remembering. That's the moment of change.

B (144:18)

No one cares how many times you.

A (144:19)

Fell off the bicycle. If you ride the bicycle now, you ride the bike.

B (144:23)

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability, and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company. This is Eva Longoria from Hungry for History with Eva Longoria and Maite Gomez Rejon. Like the song says, it's the most wonderful time of the year and also a wonderfully busy one. All that merriment can weigh down even Santa's sleigh. So keep it wonderful by keeping yourself wonderful with a crisp, cold Coca Cola. Ah. Pause for fizzy joy. Look out for yourself and then look out for everyone else. And together we'll make this season as wonderful as it's meant to be. Enjoy a Coca Cola refresh your holidays. Season two of unrivaled basketball is here, and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Becker, Snafeeza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Briana Stewart and more. Take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5th on TNT, TruTV and HBO. Max this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.