Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (3:20)

I love coming on your show. You're such a wonderful host and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Jay Shetty (3:25)

No, it's so great to have you here always, Rangan. Like, I, I really enjoy our conversations. I enjoy our interactions offline as much as I do online. And I remember when you were talking about this book with me when you were first, I think, putting it together and there was this excitement that you had and this look in your eye where it was like, this was the first time. It was like a medical doctor was writing somewhat of a philosophical, spiritual book. Yeah. But with a scientific lens. And I think it's come together brilliantly. So congrats on trying to mesh those things together.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (3:56)

Yeah, thanks. It's the book that my heart wanted to write, I would say, more than anything I've ever done before. This has come out to me. It had to come out of me. And I'm in that funny position, Jay, where I feel that I've already had the success through writing the book. Yes, I hope it lands with people. But even if it doesn't, like, I've won by writing it. And it's been a really authentic process. And frankly, it's about something I'm super passionate about, which is helping people make change that lasts. I think the title says it all. We can all make change, but often it's only for a few weeks or a few months. How many people can make changes that truly lasts? How many people can truly transform their lives for good? It's not as many as we would like. And this book is my attempt to help people solve that problem.

Jay Shetty (4:46)

Yeah, it's brilliant. I mean, talking about change, I want to go back to something you say in the book. So you say that when you went to medical school, 50% of what you were learning was going to be wrong at some point. You just didn't know which 50% and so I wanted to ask you, what's something that you learned at medical school that today you believe to be untrue and you've discovered new truths about.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (5:09)

Well, we were actually taught that. It was a professor at Edinburgh Medical School. He said to us, I can remember being in the anatomy lecture theater. And he said, Guys, 50% of what you learn is gonna turn out to be wrong. We just don't know which 50%. And I think that has huge relevance for all of us, actually. And I'll come to that shortly. But in terms of one thing that I learned that I now believe not to be true, I'd almost flip it the other way in the sense that I was never taught how much our lifestyle can impact our health. I was taught that actually people come in to see you and they have a set of problems. We need to hear what those problems are, collect them, give them a label, and then give them a pharmacist good treatment. Whereas the more I practice medicine and I've been a doctor for 23 years now, I realize, wow, that only helps us for a small fraction of people. And if you flip it, it's like, no. Our lifestyles, the way we eat, the way we move, the way we sleep, but also the way that we think and the way we approach adversity, those things all combine together to create our health. And Jay, I think you'll resonate with this. One of the things I've realized over the past couple of years of really reflecting on the way we're trained in Western medicine, and this is not me saying I'm anti Western medicine. I think Western medicine is exceptionally good at many things, but unfortunately for most of the things we now see, the chronic lifestyle driven illness, it's just not as helpful when, and fundamentally Western medicine teaches us that things go wrong in the body, right? We get taught to diagnose disease and treat disease. We don't get taught how to create health. How do you create vitality? What are the factors in someone's life that allows them to live their best life? And you know, with our culture, with our Indian backgrounds, Ayurvedic medicine for many years has been talking about this. Traditional Chinese medicine has been talking about this. So for me, it's not a battle of Eastern medicine versus Western medicine. It's what is the best of Western, what is the best of Eastern? How do we blend them together? And I'd like to think that I've done that throughout my career and hopefully in this book, give people a real practical toolkit.

Jay Shetty (7:36)

Yeah, and that definitely resonates. And I wanted the one thing that caught my eye when I was reading the book, I wanted to ask you, why have you never told a patient to quit smoking? To just quit smoking? Why have you never said that?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (7:51)

I've never told a patient that they must give up smoking because I don't think that's my role. And I think this is where we go wrong in medicine and frankly, in any relationship. Because what is the relationship I have with my patients? It's a doctor patient relationship. But this principle kind of works. Parent, child, husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend. These are just human relationships. Nobody wants to be told what to do by somebody else. At some point, if you're going to make transformative change, it's got to come from within. So one of the things that I've always rebelled against in my career as a doctor is this rather paternalistic approach that we get taught in medical school, that doctor knows best. Patient comes in, you tell me what the issue is, then I'll tell you what's wrong with you and what you need to do. Some people may be able to make that approach work. I couldn't. And I'll tell you why I couldn't. If a patient comes in and asks for my opinion, that's very important. One thing I've tried to change in my life over the past few years is never to give unsolicited advice, right? So if the patient's in. In front of me and says, Dr. Chastity, listen, I'm not feeling good, what impact is smoking having on my health? I feel that my role as a fellow human being is to explain to them what impact I think smoking is having on their health. Now, if at the end of that conversation, if I'm confident that they've understood me and that they've retained the information and they say, hey, Dr. Chatterjee, I understand what you're saying, but I get so much enjoyment out of smoking that I'm prepared to put it with the consequences. I don't feel it's my job to change their minds. I feel it's a deep respect that I have for my patients. If they understand it and they want to do it, I'm okay with that. And I'll tell you, Jay, what I've learned over the years is that by taking that approach, I feel I've had really good compliance with my patients. Like, really good compliance, like a lot of doctors will say. I have this course called Prescribing Lifestyle Medicine that I created with the Royal College of gps with a Friend of mine with a, with a colleague. And we have trained thousands of healthcare professionals around the world in the principles that I talk about in this book and my previous books. And one of the things people would say to me, doctors would say, hey, Dr. Chance, you listen, I get all this, but patients don't listen to what we tell them. And even the way that they phrase that is really interesting to me. I don't tell my patients what to do. It's not my role. I want to connect with my patients. I want to then educate and empower them. But I always want to connect first. So going back to your initial question, why have I never told a patient that they must give up smoking? It's not my role to do that. And here's what happens when you treat people like an equal. You don't look down at them. You don't think that you know better than them what will often happen. They may say, I want to smoke. Right, I understand, but I enjoy this. They'll come back two months later, they'll be like, hey, Dr. Chance, you know, I said I wanted to keep smoking because I enjoy it so much. Actually, I've been thinking, can you help me start to change that? But often if you say you must give up smoking, it's going to give you cancer, it's going to increase your risk of heart attacks, I just don't think that works. In the long term. You make short term change, but, but as for the title of this book, you Don't Make Change that Lasts. And that principle, frankly, as I say, applies far beyond the doctor patient relationship.

Jay Shetty (11:28)

Yeah, I mean, I love hearing that because I think there's such a humanity to it. And also a big part of making change that lasts is someone making change for themselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (11:37)

Exactly.

Jay Shetty (11:38)

They really believe that this change will help them be a better parent, a better professional, a better person, a better functioning human. And if I feel pressured into making change or if I feel pushed into making change, then chances are I'm going to fall right back into that habit. So if someone does come up to you and say, Dr. Chatterjee, how do I break a bad habit? What would you say is the number one advice for someone who says, I want to break a bad habit? It just can't happen. It's just never happened.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (12:12)

There's many ways of tackling bad habits, but if you're asking me for the number one tip, it would be related to our environment. Right. So we don't realize how much our environment influences our behavior. I feel that being here in la, I'VE been here for a week now. The people I've been hanging out with over the past week are really into health and wellness, right? So everyone around me who I'm interacting with wants to eat well, they want to go to bed early, they want to look after themselves. So even though I'm away from home, when I'm in this exciting city, I naturally respond, right? It's been really telling for me. And it really gave me an insight as to. If you live in an environment where your family, where your friends, where the things you have in your house are encouraging unhelpful behaviors, you're going to be struggling, right? You're gonna be constantly fighting your environment. So what does that mean for an individual who's trying to say to me, I wanna eat less sugar, for example, which is very common, right? Especially at New Year. I have said to my patients for years, if you don't wanna eat it, don't bring it into your house. Don't exercise willpower in your house because you have to exercise it as soon as you walk out the front door. Now, that's been very, very helpful for so many of my patients. And it's kind of what I do in my own life. Even though I really understand my internal triggers these days, which I think is really important, I just don't make life more difficult for myself than I need, is that I won't bring into my house the potato chips, the chocolates, the biscuits, whatever it might be, because I know I'm human just like everyone else. At some point, I'll come back stressed and tired and I want to open the cupboard and see what's there. Nothing wrong with that. If people are doing that, I don't want them to feel guilt or shame, but I think they need to understand that if you have it there, it's going to be harder for you. Now, related to that example, I have an exercise Jay, that I'd love to share with you audience, if that's okay.

Jay Shetty (14:22)

Please.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (14:22)

I love it as a doctor, many people will say, Dr. Chastity, I know that excess sugar is not helping me, but I can't stop, right? I'm really good in the day, but at 9pm do you recognise this, Jay?

Jay Shetty (14:39)

I used to. I've worked really hard at this, but, yes, I empathize.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (14:43)

It's really common, right? That's why people have been, you know, inadvertent commas. Good during the day, but at night their kids are in bed or they're sitting on the sofa. There's a box set On I really feel like I scream. So I have this exercise that I created for my patients that has been so helpful that I've used with myself called the three Fs. Okay. The three Fs are feel, feed and find. Okay, so if someone's listening, Jay, and they have this issue, which I suspect will be quite a lot of people, I would say, okay, you're sitting on your sofa, you're craving the ice cream. Okay, just take a pause, just for a second, take a pause and ask yourself the first F. What am I feeling? Is it physical hunger or is it emotional hunger? Okay. Ah, well, you know, I'm actually not physically hungry. I had a huge meal one hour ago. Oh, I feel a bit stressed. I feel a bit lonely, whatever it might be. Then go ahead and have it. Okay. I just want you to start building in some self awareness, which is the missing piece in behavior change of people. If you ask me. The big thing that we're missing, the next time you're on the sofa and you're, you can do this all in one go if you want, but you know, some people find it difficult. So the next time you're on the sofa, I would say do the first F again. What am I feeling? Then go to the second F, which is feed. How does food feed that feeling? Ah, Oh, I was feeling stressed. When I have ice cream, at least in the short term, I feel less stressed. Okay, cool. Now you're developing a bit of an understanding as to why I'm engaging with this behavior. Okay, great. If you want to eat it, go ahead and eat it with no guilt and no shame. Go and enjoy it. And then the next time, go through those Fs. What am I feeling? How does food feed the feeling, which is the second F and then the third F is find. Now that I know what the feeling is, now that I know how food feeds that feeling, can I find an alternative behaviour to feed that feeling? So it could be, oh, I feel stressed. That's why I go to sugar. What else could I do instead of sugar? Oh, I really like yoga. Maybe I'll go on YouTube and do a 10 minute yoga sequence. Maybe you feel lonely. You've been on Zoom calls all day, you haven't seen your friends or your partner, and it's a bit of a treat to yourself in the evening. That's very common. You know, people aren't hungry, but they just. It's a little treat to themselves. Okay. How else could you nourish yourself? Oh, well, maybe I could run myself a bath. I'd have a 10, 15 minute bath to myself. Maybe I'm feeling lonely. I could phone a friend or a parent, whatever it might be. Every single behavior we engage with serves a role in our life. You'll only change the behavior in the long term if you understand the role it's playing. So that is, it's a very simple exercise. I've described it through the lens of sugar, but the truth is you can apply that to anything. You can apply that to alcohol, three hours doom scrolling on Instagram, online pornography, online shopping, whatever you want. It's a simple exercise which are my favorite kinds of exercises that can be very, very powerful once you start engaging with it.

Jay Shetty (18:00)

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Jay Shetty (20:33)

I think if you think about it, we're constantly chasing a feeling, an emotional fix, and we usually turn to physical, tangible things that we think are going to make us feel that way. Right? As you said, like, really what I'm trying to do is lower stress. And I've just created the mechanism to think if I want to lower stress, I need to indulge in ice cream. And that's the connection we've made. Whereas, like you're saying, there's so many other ways and actually it could be a natural source of sugar, it could be a low sugar product, if that's what you're after. It could be, as you said, a yoga session, breathwork, whatever it may be. Now, what I find though is that when you first try and make that change, it literally feels like you're fighting against yourself. Right? It almost feels like there's this internal battle. And I'm, I'm at the point now, having worked on some of these things for a while, I'm at a point now where I believe my taste buds have actually changed the feeling and the desire has evolved and I'm able to deal with it in a healthier way. But there's that middle part where you feel like you're just like, come on, I've got to give in. I've got to give in.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (21:41)

Yeah, you said two key words there for me. And these are the two missing words. I think in behavior change, internal struggle, this is really what I'm trying to get across to people. Every single behavior is downstream, usually from something inside you. And we're living in a world where we want to consume more and more information, get more and more knowledge, which is helpful up to a point. Now, I'll come back to that point because I think it's a really important one. I just want to address what you said about it feeling difficult. Out of those three Fs, the most important F is the first one. Why? Because it suddenly Just breaks you out of your repetitive cycle. I feel stressed, I want some ice cream, I go to the freezer, and before I know it, I've had half the tub. That is very, very common. You think that's who you are? It's not who you are, it's who you've become. And you can unbecome it if you start to do that first F. It is simply the knowledge that I can take a pause. There is a gap between the stimulus and the response. When you are repeating your behaviors day to day, when they become habits, whether good habits or unhealthy habits, there's no gap. There's a feeling, there's a stimulus and there's a response. Usually an unhealthy response. In this current climate. Right. For many people. So that first F creates a gap. Now, people will often say, yes, but you know, and then now that I'm aware, so what. What can I do? I'm like, wait a minute. 90% of change in my experience is that first F is understanding, oh, this is why I'm going to it. Sure. It may take you a few weeks, it may take a few months to really work on that relationship and start to tweak it. Because how long did it take you to develop this relationship? Maybe you've been using sugar to manage stress for 20 years. You're not gonna change that in one week in January just cause you wake up thinking, I wanna make this year the best year of my life. You're not going to. It is a process of change. But what people miss, Jay, for me, is that that process where you learn what this behavior is doing for you, you struggle, you sometimes can't make the change that you want. Other times you can. That process is where the gold is. That's when you're learning about yourself. That's when you get the mastery about yourself. Oh, I always, when I have a row with my partner, I don't feel good. So yeah, I want sugar. Or when I'm alone or I'm traveling for work and I'm away from my wife and my kids, that's when I just want to spend three hours on Instagram because I'm looking for connection. That's where the gold lies. And for me, Jay, the most important chapter in this book is chapter one, which is called Trust Yourself. And I don't think we're talking about this enough in the health and wellness space. People are getting confused. Right. You must get this on your show like I do on my podcast. This idea that despite our best Efforts at trying to navigate the complexity. What I often find, Jay, is people will say to me, not often, but it happens enough that I know that this is an issue. Dr. Chachi, you know, two months ago you had this credentialed expert from Harvard and they said, this diet is really good. Like a ketogenic diet is really good for mental health. And they sound really trustworthy. They've got all the credentials and they've quoted four or five research studies to back up what they think. And I thought, okay, amazing. And then last week you spoke to another doctor, also well credentialed, who said, no, a vegan diet or a whole food plant based diet is best for mental health, and presented five studies to support what they have to say. People would contact me and say, Dr. Shati, I'm really confused, right? Both of those experts, they sound great. They've all got research to back up what they're saying. I don't know which expert to trust. And Jay, what I've realized is that's the wrong question. The more helpful question, the more powerful question is not which expert should I trust? It's why do I no longer trust myself? That is the magic to behavior change. You have to start tuning into the signals your body is giving you. So using that example, I would say to someone, hey, I tell you what, why do you have to choose which one's right? Maybe they're both right for certain people, but they're not right for anyone, right? So I would say, okay, try this expert's diet for four weeks. And whilst you're trying it, pay attention. Pay attention to what's going on. What's your energy like? What's your vitality? How are your relationships? How's your sleep? How's your focus? How's your concentration? Pay attention. I go, okay, I tried that for four weeks. Now let me try this other person's diet for four weeks. And again, pay attention. I promise if you start paying attention, you will very quickly find out what is the right diet for you at that moment in your life. And I feel that we're not talking about this enough. We're still. We've got to a point, Jay, where we've outsourced our own inner expertise to external experts. I'm not saying ignore external experts, right? You have some great experts on your show each week. I have some great experts on my podcast each week. But you should listen to their advice and put it through your own filter and then you figure out what works for you. And honestly, if you would say, what is the key thing you've learned in 23 years of seeing patients, I've seen tens of thousands of patients. I've learned many things. But I would say no one approach works for everyone. It just doesn't. And when we try and make it work for everyone, it's a problem because people feel like failures. People feel, oh, I'm following the expert's advice. I'm doing what they said to do. It's not working. There must be something wrong with me. They start to feel guilty. They start to feel like they're a loser. They start to have shame. Those things never lead to long term behavior change. And you know the other thing, Jay, I've learned, and I love your view on this because I think it probably resonates with the way you see the world. I think we focus too much on the behavior. For me, it's the energy behind the behavior that's the most important thing. You need to go, what's behind the behavior? And I've realized that in life, all behaviors either come from the energy of love or the energy of fear. If it's coming from the energy of fear, so guilt, shame, I'm not good enough. Those changes will not last in the long term. I've been doing this a long time. I have seen it. It lasts for January, it lasts for a few months. It doesn't lead to long term transformation because your behaviors are in conflicts with the way that you see yourself. If it's coming from an energy of love, that I like who I am, I want to improve my life, that I'm going to be compassionate to myself, those changes, it can be the same behaviors. Working out, eating well, going to bed on time, getting eight hours sleep, whatever it might be, it can be the same behavior. But if the energy behind it is from the energy of love, that's when the changes start to become long term. And I really get. I don't get frustrated. Nothing frustrates me anymore, really, if I'm completely honest, because I've been doing the inner work for many years, I just, I can stay quite detached from things. I just see them for what they are. But as a doctor, I guess I believe we made behavior change so difficult. Jay. I don't even say it's hard anymore. And I'll tell you why I don't say that. I used to say, you know, I know it can feel hard. I know it's hard as a way of trying to empathize with people. But if we say if we constantly say, oh, it's difficult. Oh, it's going to be hard. We're prejudging the experience for people. Sure, it may feel challenging, but it doesn't always have to. And I've experienced that myself. So five years ago, Jay, I would have a very hard, very harsh inner voice. So on January 1st, I would be very much. I'm going to meditate the chair 20 minutes a day, and I do it for 14 days. And I feel like I'm rocking. Yeah, this is. I've got meditation down this year. Then I'd miss a day. The self talk would start. Man, you couldn't do it. You couldn't do it wrong. And could you? You know, you're a loser. Whatever. I used to have a really harsh, negative voice not that long ago, but I have completely changed it through all the things that I share in this book. Right. I've completely changed it. Back then, behavior change felt difficult because it was in conflict with how I saw myself. Now that I like myself, dare I say, talking to a fellow Brit, that I love myself. Right. Can you imagine in the UK saying that? You know, I do, though not in a narcissistic way, but I like who I am. I think I'm a nice guy. I'm kind, I'm compassionate, I help people. I'm no longer competitive, as I've talked to you about on a previous episode on your show. Like, I just want to raise people up. When you feel like that, and everyone can feel like that if they know which levers to turn, behavior change becomes so much easier because you're not trying to fight yourself. Does that all make sense?

Jay Shetty (31:23)

It makes a lot of sense. I mean, two things came to mind as you were speaking. The first was you can't change something you hate. You can only change something you love. And that includes yourself. Because if you hate something, how much energy will you give it? How much focus will you give it? How much direction will you give it? Whereas when you love something, you'll be present with it, you'll be right there with it. And I feel we're trying to hate ourselves into change. And you're so right. I remember years ago as well, like having a very, very harsh, negative inner voice. And it did all the things you said. I would shame myself, I would guilt myself, I would judge myself. And none of that helped me change. If anything, it took longer for me to get back to where I wanted to get to. Because when you fall off after 14 days of meditation, now when you're judging and guilting and shaming yourself, you feel like you can't do the thing unless you can be perfect at it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (32:18)

And then you go to more unhelpful behaviors. And in some ways, I've realized you would have been better off never doing those 14 days in the first place because you feel like a failure. And, you know, it's interesting, someone once asked me about, what are your non negotiables, Rangan? And I realized, Jay, I no longer have any because a non negotiable to me feels like a harsh rule. So let's use that through the lens of this meditation practice where I tried for 14 days. I miss one day. I beat myself up now. Yeah, I meditate most mornings, but not every morning. And if I miss, I'm like, okay, yeah, sure, I didn't do it today. I'm a better person. I'm a bit calmer when I do meds. Yeah, I must make sure I do that tomorrow. It's a very different relationship. The energy behind the behavior is completely different. So I was like you, Jay. I want to make it practical for people. So I have these three questions I ask myself every morning. But one of those questions, I think really applies here. So you teach your audience, Jay, on a consistent basis, about living an intentional life, a purposeful life. Right. And I think a lot of people don't realize how powerful the mornings are. We all have a morning routine, whether we think we do or not. The question is, are we intentional about it? Have we thought about the consequences of how we start each day? Because some of you say, oh, they're not for me. You know, it's a bit cliche, this idea of a morning routine, whatever it might be. And I'm like, no, no, you've got a routine. You just may not have thought about it. So what I've learned, Shay, over the years is that so many of our thoughts, our feelings, our behaviors are downstream from the content we consume. So if you wake up and the first thing you do is going onto your phone and go on the news and see the negativity that the news is telling us from all over the world, you go onto your work emails and see the backlog that you didn't complete or whatever it might be, you go onto social media and get caught up in an argument or whatever it might be, does it really surprise you that half an hour later you may be a little reactive with your kids or your partner, or you may feel a little negative about the state of the world when you look at it like that? I think it's quite obvious if that's what you're inputting into your brain. Think about it as software. That's what you're inputting in. Of course, the output straight after that, for many people, it's going to be negative as well. If you have a more intentional start to your day with a bit more positivity. I'm not talking about toxic positivity or fake positivity, just intentionally going. Whether it's gratitude, I mean, one of the questions I ask is a gratitude question. What is one thing I deeply appreciate about my life? It helps shift your mindset and where you're going to place your attention. But where I finish my morning routine is with this, what I consider to be a very powerful question. What quality would I like to showcase to the world today? It's a simple question, but it's very, very powerful because it forces you. Let me rephrase that. I don't even like using the word force anymore. It feels a bit of an aggressive word. Right? It feels like it's coming from the energy of fear rather than the energy of love. I have the opportunity each morning with that question to set the intention of how I wish to show up so often. It will be I wish to showcase the quality of patience today or compassion. And you write it down. I write it down in my journal and I think about it. What would it look like today to show the quality of patience or compassion? Ah, you know, if I get caught up in a, in a, in a traffic, I'm not going to stop berating people. I'm just going to smile and be kind. If I get an email I maybe don't like, I'm going to just take a breath and actually not respond in the moment. If my wife says this to me or whatever about the dishes or whatever, I'm just going to go, hey, it's cool. You know, maybe she's having a bad day and I'm just going to smile and be compassionate. It sounds too simple to work. This is transformative. It really works. Now, just by setting the intention, it doesn't mean that you're gonna be perfect. So I have a couple of questions I ask myself in the evening, which helps balance this. What went well today and what can I do differently tomorrow? So what went well today could be, again, it's a form of gratitude. It could be that, you know what, I had a really busy day. I didn't take a lunch break. I got home late, but I still found 20 minutes to make my family a home cooked meal. Instead of ordering takeout or whatever, it Might be okay, you're just going because we have a negativity bias. Instead of focusing on all the things that you didn't get done and the stress in your day and how you behaved or whatever, you're putting your attention on what you did do, which I think is very powerful. But then the second part of that question, Jay, is really interesting. What can I do differently tomorrow? So it could be that you say, you know what, this morning I said I was gonna be show the world the quality of compassion. But at lunchtime or at 4pm I was really tired. I didn't like the email that my colleague sent me and I quickly sent an annoyed email back, okay, no worries. Again, we're looking for love, not fear. So you can say, ah, what I can do differently tomorrow is I can try harder tomorrow. If that same situation arrives, I'm going to respond differently. And I tell you, sure, doing this for one day may not do much. You do that for seven days or dare I say even 30 days, the way you experience the world will be completely different. You will have made this small like 1 degree shift each day that in the moment doesn't feel like anything. 30 days later you will be like a different person. I've been doing this subjay for maybe five years now and like I was sharing with you before the mics were rolling, I've never felt this good. Like I have this deep sense of peace these days and inner calm and I've worked at it. Some of the things I've shared already, many things I haven't shared that I put in this book. This is available to everyone. Jay. Like I absolutely believe that I have seen throughout my career people in the darkest of places, suicidal patients who through these kind of practices have managed to completely turn their lives around. It is possible to everyone. But I think we're going about change a lot of the time in the wrong places, right? We talk about creating healthy habits. It's important and I've written a book about that in the past and I know the rules of healthy habit formation. You know, make it easy, stick on the new behaviour onto an existing habit. Those things are very, very helpful but they still don't get to the root. And my attempt with this book is to help people go, no, no, no. There are things that you don't know that are driving you in your life. A lot of people don't realize, Jay, that their behaviors are driven by their beliefs. So if you believe that somebody out there knows what is best for you more than you, that is Gonna dictate your behaviors. Your belief is that someone else knows better. So you're gonna be every few months looking for a new expert to follow. Every January, you're gonna buy a new health book to say, oh, you need to go on a 30 day sugar detox. You need to cut out alcohol, you need to cut out ultra processed foods. These things are all well and good, but I submit to you, Jay, that many people, dare I say most people who are listening to shows like yours or mine kind of already know that excess sugar is not helping them or excess alcohol is not helping them. I don't think they need more external knowledge of, oh, alcohol will do this to your liver or sugar will do this to your teeth. People know that they need more internal knowledge. They need insight, intuition. And in my view, the way you develop that is, is with some intentional time each day, these questions, meditation, journaling. If you're constantly in your life, you never step out of it to reflect on it. It's not about the behavior, it's about the energy behind the behavior.

Jay Shetty (40:51)

Yeah, it resonates very strongly with me. And to kind of encapsulate what you're saying, what I'm hearing, and what I found to be true is that if you really want to make a change, it comes down to your most repeated thought, your most repeated words, and your most repeated actions. And what you find is you already have a most repeated thought. I'm not good enough, I can't do it. That life's not for me. And this goes back to your point. That's what your beliefs are. Your beliefs are just your most repeated thoughts. And now it feels like that's who you are. And then naturally, those become your words. So when someone says to you, like, oh, how's that new habit going? Or, you know, how's the workout going? Or whatever, you go, oh, you know, I can't. I can't keep up with it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (41:37)

Exactly.

Jay Shetty (41:38)

And now you keep repeating. Then everyone you meet, you go, oh, yeah, I gave up after seven days. And now that's your language. And then that naturally leads onto your actions. And so what you're talking about, which I really appreciate because it is harder to talk about, which is what is the root. But for all of us, anyone who's had a lasting change, it's been a root issue that's been solved always.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (42:01)

And this is why I'm so passionate, Jay, about this idea. You know, I've been in this health and wellness space publicly for 10 years now. And for all the benefits of this Increase in information. And of course there are many. Like people are better educated now than ever before about health and wellness and what we can do. But we have to confront a very uncomfortable truth, which is despite all of this increasing information, people are getting physically and mentally more sick. So I was trying to solve this problem. I was trying to go, I don't want to just write another book with more information on what you should do. I want to help people understand why they are doing it. And again, talking to root causes and maybe feeding back to what you've just said, this I think is the most under taught aspect. This is the most underappreciated aspect of health for me. Let me make it really practical for people. Many of us are trying to change our behaviors and I know I've used sugar and alcohol a few times just because I think they're quite common and quite relatable for people. People don't understand that the way they interact with other people directly affects that behaviour. So for example, you're driving to work in the morning and there's a bit of traffic and someone cuts in front of you. Okay, we've all seen it, maybe we've experienced it, where we start to create all this mental noise. Oh my God, stupid driver. They shouldn't have done that. They need their eyes checked, whatever it might be. And we think that we're entitled to do that. And we are, right? I'm not here to change anyone. Right, You've got to change yourself. You're entitled to react like that. Just know that there's a consequence. One of the themes that underpins every chapter in this book is that emotional stress is not neutral. So we think about physical stress, but we don't think about emotional stress. So a driver cuts in front of you. There are many ways to react to that situation. If you take a disempowering narrative and create all of this anger and stress and noise in your head, you've generated emotional stress. You will need to neutralize that emotional stress in some way or another. Now you could do it in a healthy way by going for a walk or going to the gym. Usually what people do when they get to the office is they need an extra coffee, they need to go to the vending machine and get some sugar, they need an extra drink after work. And then they think, oh, I'm drinking too much in the evening or I'm eating too much sugar, I need to change that. But they don't realize that actually the way they dealt with that driver on the road that day because it's not just that. That's the pattern they use for everything in their life. I say this with an open heart. We almost make ourselves a victim to life. We think that the way we feel is down to the way other people treat us. And I understand that we like other people to treat us well. But you can cultivate the skill of not having your inner state as dependent on the world around you so you can develop the skill. And I share how to in this book, with practice, you can basically go, wow, what other story could I create here? Oh, maybe that mother has had a sick child, up all night with earache and they're just rushing. Maybe she's on her last warning with her boss and actually if she's late one more time, she's going to lose her job. And that's how she feeds her family. Right? The truth doesn't matter for your inner well being. It really doesn't. And you can choose to start looking at the world this way and what you will find, yes, it might feel challenging at first, so you have to consciously think about it. Maybe not in the moment, maybe in the evening. And I'll share a practice that can help people with that. But over time, it becomes your default. Whereas now, you know, I've been in LA traffic this week. I've heard you guys talk about it all the time. Oh, I've experienced it. I'm running late for some interviews. I'm just, I'm totally chilled. I'm like, I can't do anything about this. Nothing I can do. You can train that response. And I think last time I came on your podcast, Jay, I think I shared the story of Edith Eger, the 93 year old lady who was in Auschwitz when she was 16. And I shared the powerful narrative she would use in her mind to reframe her existence there. And I won't tell that story again. But I'll remind people of the final thing that Edith Eager told me when she came on my podcast. She said to me, Dr. Chastity, I have lived in Auschwitz and I can tell you the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own mind. And the penny dropped for me, Jay, in that conversation. Literally, I thought, that's it. That's what we're all doing. We're interacting with the world, with other people. We're creating these disempowering narratives. We're making ourselves a victim to the world around us without realizing that we have the power to shape the narrative on every single situation. Most situations in life. You could even say all, but that gets a bit triggering for people. So I say most situations in life are neutral. It's the perspective we take on that situation that determines its impact. You want to change your behaviors. If you're someone who has been trying to make changes in January for the last 10 years and you keep buying a new book and you keep trying a new detox plan or whatever, and you're still ending up where you were the year before, you have to ask yourself the question, am I taking the right approach? Is there something I'm missing? Is it more external information I need or more internal information?

Jay Shetty (47:52)

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Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (51:59)

Even within those studies that are done. Right? Yeah, we think the studies show this. When you look into most scientific studies. Right. Let me try and make it super simple to understand for people. Let's say there was a study done where 100 people were put on one diet and 100 people put on another diet. Which one is better? And then on balance we'll say, oh, this one, this one statistically was better, but it doesn't mean that 100% of the people were better on that one. There would have been some people who were better on the other one. But overall we say that one worked. What we're saying is that that one works for the Most people in that study, it doesn't mean it will for you. And this is where I think the differences between researchers and clinicians. You know, I feel one thing I. I'm really good at. And again, I don't say this with any arrogance. I feel I'm really good at connecting with my patients and I've managed to help them make transformative change, many of them, throughout their careers. And as you know, I even showcased what I do on BBC1 back in 2015 and 2017, where families who were sick were under GPs, were under specialists with type 2 diabetes, panic attacks, fibromyalgia, menopausal symptoms, irritable bowel syndrome. I either helped everyone fully reverse their conditions or get them significantly better, like 80% better in just six weeks using nutrition, lifestyle and mindset. That's not blaming people, it's showing people, educating them that, oh, the way you do things matters, how you live each day, the choices you make, the way you talk to each other. Right. These things really play a role. And Jay, I often think, you know, I was thinking about this on the plane over to LA this time. Rangan, why do you have such a. I don't know if I can call it unique perspective on health, but it's not the normal perspective, I would say, that most medical doctors have. Would you agree with that?

Jay Shetty (54:05)

Yeah, most, yeah. Compared to most, absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (54:08)

And I think one of the reasons why, and there's many reasons, including my cultural upbringing, probably similar to yours, where we grow up with this more holistic approach, these ideas that as medicine, all those kind of ideas. But I think my filming that BBC documentary series over two or three years, I think it gave me an insight that very few doctors ever get. Even if you're a disenchanted doctor and you think 10 minutes is not enough, which it isn't, and you figure out a way to spend one hour with your patients. What I learned on filming that series, when I would live alongside families for four to six weeks, sometimes I'd stay overnight in their house. Okay, I got to see stuff that people rarely get to see. I got to see, oh, wow, they've got these symptoms. But I'm noticing how the husband and wife are talking to each other in the evening. Oh, I wonder how that relationship is impacting their physical health. And I would do this with all kinds of families in all different areas of the uk. So it gave me a rather unique insight where this idea is that literally 99% of what happens to your health. I know this sounds really obvious. It's outside the doctor's surgery. It's how you live your life. It's how you approach adversity. And so I think it's kind of given me this rather unique view. I think my 23 years of clinical practice has also taught me that there's no one right approach. So you, as you say, you can hear all the experts online you want telling you about the high protein that you need and you could keep trying it or you could go, wait, well, you know what? I don't think that's the right approach for me at this point in my life. And that secondary bit is another key piece. It might be later, but right now, for the state of your life and your health, it's not working for you. And we need to learn to trust ourselves more.

Jay Shetty (56:04)

Yeah, absolutely. I like that addition as well. What's your take? We've talked a lot about self awareness and the importance of it. Obviously, right now everyone's getting really excited about fitness trackers. What's your take on them?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (56:17)

There's a section on this actually in the book because I think it's a really important thing to think about. So I currently have one on I've been slow to adopt fitness trackers and I'll tell you why. A key theme in this book is about reliance and that we're overly reliant on things outside of ourself, on people treating us well, on all kinds of things, expert knowledge, whatever it might be. And we need to become what I say in the book is minimally reliant, not zero reliance, but less reliant. I think trackers, health trackers, fitness trackers can be good and they can also be bad. It depends on who you are. So we've got all these new fitness trackers, but let's talk about another kind of tracker that's been around for a while, a blood pressure monitor. Right. They've been around for 30, 40 years, something like that. That's a form of health tracker. Maybe it's not as high tech as some of these new ones, but it's a form of health tracker. What I would notice, Jay, in my practice for years is that many people would say, Dr. Shati, should I buy one from the pharmacy and use it at home? And initially I would say, yeah, great idea. Then you can check what your blood pressure's doing. And then what I noticed is that, oh wow, maybe 50% of people. This is a rough guess. It's not a scientific study. Half of my patients would use regular blood pressure checks at home to empower Them, right? So they'd be like, oh, wow, okay, it's going a bit high now, what's going on? And they'd use it in a very helpful way to get to know themselves better and make positive changes. The other half, I think it was harmful for them. They would get stressed out, they would check it four times a day, they would get health anxiety and that would paralyze them. So I thought, wow, it's not the tracker itself that's the issue, it's our relationship to the tracker that's the theme throughout this conversation, it's our relationship to it. So if you're someone who can look at that tracker, whether it's an Apple watch or a whoop band or an OURA or whatever, you know, whatever, you've got a Garmin, you know, if you're able to use it to help you get to know yourself better and it helps you make positive changes, I think they can be very, very helpful. In fact, I'm on a two month experiment at the moment with this one that I've got on and it's really helping me understand myself better. Oh, this is what my heart rate variability is like when I eat a bit later at night or, you know, when I've been on a transatlantic flight, whatever it might, I'm like, I'm learning about myself. I'm getting a deeper understanding of myself through this now. I think it'd be very helpful. But some people have got a very unhealthy relationship with them. They're obsessed with them. If the battery's not working, they start to stress out, oh, I don't know how to exist. And the truth is there are some scientific studies which show us that they can be problematic. So there was one study which I write about in the book, where in essence, a simplified way of describing it is they took these groups of people and put them in the lab. One group were only allowed to sleep for five hours, the other group were allowed to sleep for eight hours. Right. But there's no clocks anywhere. And then they told the group who slept for five hours that they slept for eight hours and the group that slept for eight hours that they'd only slept for five hours. And that impacted their energy levels through the day and it impacted their physiology. Right. So that's a really powerful study. And there's many more like that, which all that does for me, again, let's not get, let's not use that study to disempower us. That's interesting. What does it show? It shows that some people can have an unhealthy relationship with these devices. Some people can have a helpful one. And if I think about that through the lens of me and my wife, right. I love getting data. I can be very detached from it. It doesn't affect me. If I see a low readiness score in the morning, I can be detached from that and go, wow, I can still perform even with that. Right. I will often not check for days. Right. Or once a day, once every two days, I'll go on and check my data. I don't want to become dependent or reliant. That's the key. So I can't tell you. Jay, are these good or bads? It depends on who you are and what's your relationship to that device. And only you will be able to answer that question for yourself.

Jay Shetty (60:44)

Yeah, it's a great answer. It's a great answer. And I, and I, and I fully agree. I think it goes back to what the common theme is. As you said, it's our interpretation of the event, of the data, of the information. And I guess then going back to what you said earlier, your only non negotiable has become being kinder to yourself. Like that is your non negotiable. Like the ability to always turn towards not judging, not shaming, not guilting, but giving yourself that space and grace to just operate and think it through.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (61:17)

Yeah. It's funny that words are interesting, aren't they? I guess the word non negotiable for me these days, maybe because I used to have such a negative voice in my head. I kind of feel that everything's negotiable in life. Right? So I don't know, let's take an example. Violence, right? I could say that I'm a calm person and I would never be violent. Right. But hold on, there's always a situation in life that might challenge that. What if I was on a street with my two beautiful children and someone was trying to attack me or attack them? Would I turn to violence to protect them? Yeah, I think I would. Right. I wouldn't intentionally want to do that. So I could say that being kind and compassionate and nonviolent is a non negotiable. Or I could be a bit more realistic and go, well, I think in 99.9% of situations in life, I'm gonna be kind and compassionate, or I'm gonna certainly have the intention to be. But I can foresee a situation whereby, yeah, maybe I would turn to violence. Do you know what I mean? I think it's that complexity and nuance so for me, if I say it's a non negotia, again, for someone else, they may like the term, but for me, it's not to program me with this harsh taskmaster, I must always do this. I can never fall from this. So for me, I personally don't use that term, but I totally welcome other people, like, if they want to use that term. I think you're completely fine. And I think it's all highly, highly individual. We have to find what works for us. I don't believe anymore that anything for me is non negotiable. I think I set an intention about how I want to live, but always knowing that the situation could change. Now, Jay, I'm here in la, right, maybe two weeks after the election, and it's remarkable for me to see certainly online, the division, right? And I remember maybe six or nine months ago when your current US Surgeon General, Vivek Mursi, was in London, he came on my podcast, we had a wonderful conversation, and he said to me, back then, one in six Americans are currently not talking to a family member because of their political views. And I suspect that's even higher now, from what I can tell. Now, I'm not trying to wade into politics here. I'm trying to take a step back and go to me. And I'm not American, right? So I acknowledge that, put that out there. To me, it seems like madness, right? There's a chapter in this book called Take Less Offence, which is an over reliance on being right, our need to be right. And I explained in that chapter that nothing in life is inherently offensive. If it was, we'd all get offended to the same thing. If it was that thing that was offensive, all of us would find it offensive. If we don't all find something offensive, it means that thing isn't offensive. There's something inside of us that's been activated or being triggered. So that whole chapter is about helping people understand that you don't need to take offense to everything. You can choose not to, you can choose to go, wow, why has that person got a different view to me? Why does that person see the world so differently from me? You know, I think I might have shared this last time I was on your show, Jay, but one of the phrases that has been transformative for me is if I was that other person, I'd be behaving in exactly the same way as them. And what I mean by that is, if I was that other person with their parents, with their childhood, with the bullying they experienced, with the friends they had at school with the first boss who bullied them on the workplace, whatever it might be. If I had their life, I would probably see the world in the same way as them and I probably act in the same way as them. Now. This doesn't mean I'm saying this excuses poor behavior. No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, instead of jumping to judgment of other people, which I think is a toxic behavior, I think it's a behavior that won't help you make change. I used to be judgmental. I'm not anymore. You can change this. We said before how our behaviors are driven by our beliefs. None of us came out of our mother's womb with these beliefs. Right. We didn't. We developed them based upon what we experienced throughout our life. It's a much lighter way of interacting with the world. When you go, wow, why do they think in the way that they do now? You don't have to choose that approach to life. But if you're someone who's walking around taking offense to everything, okay, And I say this, I promise you, I say this with compassion. Jay. If there's anyone listening who thinks that they're a person who's constantly berating the drivers on the freeway taking offense to everything they see on social media, my invitation to that individual is, hey, that approach to life may not be serving you. You may have an over reliance on being right. And in that chapter, I make the case that actually thinking that everyone in the world is going to see the world in the same way as us in a world of 8 billion people is actually quite an arrogant way to think. And I'm not judging when I say that I used to think like this, Jay. Right. So why I share that is because I want people to know I know what that feels like. And I know you can change that. If you choose to not take offense and interact with compassion, why does that person think the way in which they do? You will naturally make better choices because you're not generating that emotional stress. You go on Instagram or Twitter or X and find a comment really irritating or someone's viewpoint really offensive and start to get involved with them. Of course you can do that. That might be why you struggle to reduce your alcohol intake or your sugar intake, because you're getting addicted to that noise, that emotional stress. And let's relate that back to what I said about Edith Eager before. This lady who survived auschwitz and at 93 is full of compassion and forgiveness and even said that she's forgiven Hitler. Right? Let that land for a minute. It doesn't mean that what Hitler did was right. She's not saying that. What she's saying is, I'm no longer going to allow what he did to affect me and my life and how I interact. There's a big difference. People get. There's a whole section on forgiveness in the book. People really misunderstand forgiveness. They think it means that I'm saying that that was right and it was okay. It's not that at all. One of the daily practices I did after my conversation with Edith, which is still probably one of the most powerful episodes I've ever had on my podcast, is every evening. Because, as I say, you often can't do it in the moment. Every evening, once my kids were in bed when they were a bit younger, I sit down and I'd ask myself, rangan, where did you get emotionally triggered today? When did an email piss you off? Right. When did you react to someone whilst you were driving? And instead of putting the blame on the other person, on something outside of myself, I asked myself a question. What is it within me that's been activated by that external action? Why did that email bother me? Oh, it reminds me of something my parents said to me when I was a kid. Oh, it reminds me of a boss I had a few years ago. Oh, it's highlighted in an insecurity, like criticism. Right? We both exist in the public domain. We get positive comments. We also get negative comments. Right? That is just part and parcel of life. Not everyone is going to like how I put across my messages. That's okay. They don't have to. Some people will say I'm the greatest podcast host on the planet. Some people say I'm the worst. And I talk over my guests and whatever. Do you know what? They're both right for them. Right? Do you know what I mean? It's really important. So what I've learned about criticism, because criticism generally doesn't bother me anymore because I've learned to be emotionally detached. I've come to the realization, Jay, that criticism only bothers us to the degree we believe it about ourselves. I don't know your relationship with criticism, but certainly for me, I realized, oh, the reason that bothers me is because it triggers an internal insecurity. Now I can get annoyed at the person delivering the criticism or. And maybe it's out of order, maybe they shouldn't. But I'm not sure how much that helps you. You can't control whether someone is or is not going to criticize you. What I can control. And what I can work on is my internal state. Oh, I'm insecure about that. Let me write down why. Let me think about that. Maybe if you have access to a therapist, sure, go and see one, talk about it. That is the secret to long term change, Jay. It's not looking outside for the answers. It's going, what is going on inside of me? That exercise, like, if people take nothing else from this conversation, Jay, I would say that is one of the most powerful things you can do. It will take you maybe five minutes every evening and you don't realize. People do not realize how quickly their lives will start to change when they take full responsibility for their reactions. You're no longer dependent on everyone around you acting a certain way to feel good. You become like a master in yourself. Like in martial arts. We want to be black belts. This is your way of becoming a black belt in yourself. And I love it. And going back to what I said before about the process of change, if you commit to doing this, you will learn so much about yourself. You will learn why certain things trigger you, why you go to sugar, why you go to alcohol, why you can't stop scrolling Instagram for four hours every evening. You will learn about yourself. And I promise you that is much more powerful than any expert ever telling you that. And I say that as a so called expert myself.

Jay Shetty (71:33)

Make change that lasts. Rangan, it's been really a joy talking to you today. I mean, the thing that's staying with me and resonating with me most deeply about what you just shared is this idea of taking accountability, taking responsibility for ourselves, for our feelings, for our health. I think it's very easy to say, I did this because this person told me, oh, I feel this way because that person did that to me. Oh, that person's diet didn't work. And you're so right. We've been trying to outsource our health, our emotional health, our physical health. And I love the ownership and the empowerment that you're offering everyone through this book. Because that's really what's missing. That's really what the struggle is, is that we haven't taken ownership of our own life. And that's what I feel you're encouraging us to do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (72:26)

Yeah, I really am. Because, Jay, not only have I experienced it myself, because what I say at the end of the end of the introduction is, I say effortless. Change actually is available to you. Once you work on this stuff, change doesn't become as hard as you think. I think the reason we think it's so hard is because we're going about it in the wrong way. And I think, I mean, certainly we spoke about this beforehand. I think what I've stumbled across through my career and through my own lived experience are, I think, some universal human truths. Right. I think for me at least, what's exciting about this book for people is that you're going to learn concepts that you're not used to learning about from a medical doctor. There's like elements of philosophy, spirituality. Yes. Physical health and habit formation. It's all there. And I think from the bottom of my heart that this is the most important book I've ever written. I think it's going to have the most impact on people. You're very kind enough to give a quote for the book, but I remember one of the first people outside my team to read it was Dr. Gabor Mate. And Gabor read every single word. And he sent me the most wonderful email. And he goes, ranga, this is just wonderful. This is your most insightful book yet. This can help so many people. And coming from someone, I really respect that.

Jay Shetty (73:53)

I love him. Yeah, he's amazing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (73:55)

I was so touched. I was so touched. And so I think this is the only journey that's worth taking, is understand your inner world. Stop relying on those external experts so much. I'm not saying ignore. I'm not saying ignore the science. I'm not saying ignore external experts. I think we've gone too far. It's all about what does the experts say now. I'm like, no, no, let's just bring it back. It's too head focused and not enough heart focus. So let's just wind it back. Let's use our head, but let's also use our hearts.

Jay Shetty (74:27)

I love that, everyone. The book is called Make Change that Lasts. Nine simple ways to break free from the habits that hold you back. Go and grab your copy right now. And Rangan, thank you so much for always coming with so much energy, enthusiasm and counterintuitive thinking, which I think is going to benefit a lot of people and start their new year just right. So thank you so much, my friend. It's great to have you here.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee (74:51)

Jay, thanks for having me back on your show. I appreciate it.

Jay Shetty (74:53)

Amazing. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over 1000 convicted felons and over 100 murderers and their brains are very damaged.

Subaru Representative (75:19)

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Jay Shetty (76:55)

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