Jay & Radhi Talk About Why Men Feel So Lonely

Summary

Podcast Summary: On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Episode: Jay & Radhi Talk About Why Men Feel So Lonely
Release Date: November 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this open, candid conversation, Jay Shetty and his wife, Radhi Devlukia, dive into the growing epidemic of male loneliness. Drawing on statistics, cultural observations, and personal stories, the episode explores why so many men in modern society struggle to form deep, meaningful friendships and how societal norms, emotional conditioning, and shifting expectations contribute to these challenges. Jay and Radhi reflect on their own experiences and offer practical guidance for men—and women—seeking genuine connection, community, and emotional well-being.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Statistics Behind Male Loneliness (02:40–05:07)

• A “friendship recession” among men:
  • 15% of US men reported having no close friends in 2021, up from 3% in 1990.
  • Only 13% have 10+ close friends, down from 33% in 1990.
  • 1 in 4 US men under 35 report feeling lonely, with American men ranking lonelier than those in other developed nations.
• Loneliness was labeled a “national epidemic” by US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy in 2023.

“Men are really speaking about it, but we’re just not listening.” – Radhi (05:30)

2. The Gender Divide in Social Connection (05:34–07:52)

• Activity vs. talking:
  • Men often connect while doing activities (sports, drinking, going to the gym) which rarely allows for emotional conversations.
  • Women frequently bond over activities that inherently create space for talking (coffee, getting nails done, etc.).
• Effort is required:
  • Jay shares that maintaining close relationships takes conscious effort, especially with friends living far away.

“If I’m only seeing you once a month, I may not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart to be vulnerable.” – Jay (08:09)

3. Emotional Vulnerability and Societal Stigma (08:56–15:40)

• The challenge of transitioning friendships to deeper ground:
  • Many men’s friendships are based on “jokes and laughter,” making deeper conversations uncomfortable.
  • Social media trends and “alpha male” narratives reinforce the stigma that vulnerability equals weakness.
• Double standards from women:
  • Radhi observes some women say they want emotionally available men, but are simultaneously turned off when men show strong emotions like crying.

“Crying and laughing are actually just two sides of the same [coin]—they’re expressions of an emotion.” – Jay (16:04)
“Women seem to want a man who is emotionally available but not emotional.” – Radhi (14:44)

4. Role Models and Shifting Narratives (15:40–18:50)

• Public vulnerability:
  • Athletes, musicians, and actors speaking out about mental health shows that emotional openness is not antithetical to strength.
  • Example: Kendrick Lamar, known for his toughness, publicly embraced crying as a sign of growth and self-expression.

“If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier, I could have had more depth and more reach to the guys that was around me.” – Jay, citing Kendrick Lamar (17:40)

5. Building and Maintaining Friendships (19:32–27:28)

• Community is key but difficult to build:
  • Men may struggle to form new friendships outside of work and partnerships.
  • One-to-one settings often yield more depth for men than group settings, where conversations can stay surface-level.
  • Both men and women benefit from friendships rooted in trust, vulnerability, and mutual understanding.
• Signs of meaningful connection:
  • Jay poses self-assessment questions for listeners:
    • Do you have three friends you could call at 3am to share struggles—or even just one?
    • Do you have someone you can honestly share your biggest win with, without fear of being judged?

“You need three people that you can go to when you’re in your hardest moments.” – Jay (02:40 & 29:40)
“The most seen I feel is when I’m with my wife or with a deep old friend that I know and they see all of me.” – Jay (27:48)

6. Loneliness, Health, and Aging (30:09–32:41)

• Impact on health:
  • Loneliness correlates with physical ailments like depression, anxiety, dementia, and even greater mortality (as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day).
• Changing friendships across a lifespan:
  • As people age, their social circles often contract, but having even a small, core support network remains vital—especially for men after losing a partner.

7. Friendship as a Learned Skill (34:59–36:17)

• Intentional systems:
  • Jay advocates for scheduling social time as a way of showing respect and deepening connections, encouraging routines to support and maintain relationships.
• Everyone can—and should—learn friendship skills:
  • Positive change starts with the courage to share vulnerably and continually seek out deeper connections.

“Friendship is a learned skill. It’s not something you’re born with.” – Jay (34:59)
“If you’re listening to this right now and you’re feeling lonely, I want you to know that there are other men out there that feel lonely…you actually have the opportunity to become community for each other.” – Jay (35:19)

8. Reflections on Friendship Across Generations (36:17–38:17)

• Friendships evolve:
  • Jay and Radhi discuss how their fathers kept lifelong friends, with consistent—if sometimes infrequent—check-ins being the foundation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Men are really speaking about it, but we’re just not listening.” – Radhi (05:30)
• “If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier, I could have had more depth and more reach to the guys that was around me.” – Jay (quoting Kendrick Lamar, 17:40)
• “You need three people that you can go to when you’re in your hardest moments.” – Jay (02:40 & 29:40)
• “Cry and laughter are expressions of the same thing…You also don’t stop laughter, but people stop tears.” – Jay & Radhi (16:04–16:45)
• “Having lots of eyes on you, being seen, doesn’t mean you feel seen.” – Jay (28:26)
• “Friendship is a learned skill…and for me as a man, if you’re listening…you have the opportunity to become community for each other.” – Jay (34:59–35:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:14 – Introduction of topic: Male loneliness epidemic
• 04:29–05:07 – Eye-opening statistics on male friendships and loneliness
• 05:34–07:52 – Cultural differences in how men and women connect
• 08:56–10:37 – Challenges of vulnerability among men
• 15:00–16:45 – Social stigmas around male expression of emotion
• 17:07–18:50 – Kendrick Lamar’s take on vulnerability
• 19:32–20:44 – How friendship dynamics differ for men and women
• 26:37–27:29 – Assessing the depth of your friendships
• 30:09–32:41 – Health impacts of loneliness, especially later in life
• 34:43–35:19 – Scheduling and maintaining friendships
• 36:17–38:17 – Intergenerational observations on lasting friendship

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Takeaways & Actionable Advice

• Meaningful male friendships require effort, intentionality, and vulnerability.
• Deep connection doesn't require a large group, just a few genuine, reliable friends.
• Societal beliefs about masculinity often make it harder for men to express emotion, but public examples of vulnerability can help change the narrative.
• Friendship is a learned and practiced skill, not an inherent talent—systems and habits play a big role in maintaining it.
• Both men and women struggle to find and trust close friends; one-on-one, judgment-free relationships are invaluable for all.

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Tone and Language

The conversation is empathetic, curious, lighthearted at times, and rooted in personal anecdotes as well as research, with both Jay and Radhi encouraging a spirit of self-reflection, openness, and communal healing.

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode delivers a balanced blend of statistics, stories, and strategies, all with compassion and a gentle push towards building true, lasting connections—no matter your gender.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

The Male Loneliness epidemic.

[B]

Yeah, that's me. I'm so lonely. I just, I got nobody to talk to, unfortunately.

[A]

I want to be wanted. I want to be loved. I want to be appreciated.

[B]

I don't have nobody to talk to, gang. I don't got nobody to come for me.

[A]

Gang.

[B]

Why are men so lonely?

[A]

You don't need to have 100 people at your birthday party. You need three people that you can go to when you're in your hardest moments.

[B]

15% of us men reported having no close friends.

[A]

One of my friends said that one of her biggest icks is seeing a man cry.

[B]

Being vulnerable has been a long term difficulty these days.

[A]

Women seem to Want a man who is emotionally available but not emotional.

[B]

Sometimes I just don't feel seen.

[A]

Sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've been used to. If you are trying something new with yourself as a man.

[B]

If you're listening to this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know.

[A]

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this week's episode of On Purpose. We're with Jay Shetty and Radhi Devlikya. We have created these moments of conversation so that we can share a lot of the things that we discuss in our car journeys, when we're traveling places, when we have space and time to actually think about what's happening in the world, the conversations we're having with friends and sharing all the things that people are finding a little bit difficult and just having open ended, curious conversations based on it.

[B]

Yeah, we wanted to find a space where we could share conversations we're having. And whether you're watching this on your own or whether you're watching this with your partner or whether you're watching this with a friend, we just wanted to engage in conversations that we think people are having. They may not know who to go to and where to turn to. And so we hope that this provides a space and an open forum to have those. And today's topic is why are men so lonely? And this is based on something that researchers are calling a friendship recession among men. So just to set it up, 15% of US men reported having no close friends.

[A]

How many percent?

[B]

15% in 2021, which is up from 3% in 1990. Only 13% of men have 10 plus close friends, which is down from 33% in. In 1990. And 1 in 4 US men under 35 report feeling lonely. 1 in 4 men under 35 report feeling lonely, with US men ranking lonelier than peers in the most developed countries. And loneliness was declared a national epidemic by US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy in 2023.

[A]

That is honestly really sad though. But who also knew that Akon was so right with the songs he was singing back in the day. What? He has a song? Lonely Miscellaneous.

[B]

I know. I don't think people are gonna even remember that you're aging yourself for that.

[A]

No.

[B]

But, you know Justin Bieber has a song called Lonely.

[A]

Does he?

[B]

Yeah. That's one of my favorite. I love that song. Oh, you know it?

[A]

No.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

But all that to say that men are really speaking about it, but we're just not listening.

[B]

That's what.

[A]

That's what we're that's really what it is. People are somehow talking about it, but we're not listening. It's so interesting because with men, I noticed that men often travel in groups. Like, recently, I've been laughing with my cousins because we go to the gym and there's these packs of men that come in. You know, girls will be alone, they'll be doing their own thing. But there are two, three, sometimes a pack of six men who are hyping each other up in the gym, working out. Like, I noticed that a lot, but I noticed it so much more in sports. And so when I was thinking about it, I realized that so many men connect through activities. Women connect through. We'll go get our nails done together. That's a space to talk. You can't do much else but talk. You go get a coffee. What do you do? You talk and have a coffee. And I think a lot of the way that women spend time together creates space for emotional conversations. Creates space and time to have that. Whereas a lot of the time when men meet, they go to the pub to watch a game, they'll play an activity. It doesn't leave room or space to have a conversation. Except for before, like, oh, did you watch that game? And then after, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go watch that other game. And so I think.

[B]

Is that what men sound like to you?

[A]

Yeah, that's what they sound like. Just gonna have a pint. But I think that the way that they spend time together kind of reflects what you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's that. Yeah. I never thought about it like that.

[A]

Men, get your nails done more together.

[B]

Okay, you're right that I have to make a concerted effort to find time to talk to my friends before or after we play pickleball or padel, whatever it may be. So you're spot on. The way I like to spend time with my friends is we play sports together, we're outdoors together, we're watching a game together. So I have to make an added effort. As a man who does not feel lonely, I have to make an added effort to spend time with my friends. Now, I get this question a lot because we also both moved. And so I live in L. A now. We live in L. A. And we were born and raised in London. So all my best friends, that is my friends that know me the best, know me 360, all live in London, and one of them just moved to Dubai. And so when I tell people that I speak to my best Mate, who is my best man at my wedding three times a week. Most people are absolutely shocked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, how? Now I have to give credit because he also picks up, he also makes time, he also makes a massive effort. But the reality is that at one point I realized that if we were not talking two to three times a week, I would feel lonely because he is my closest friend. He does know me the best. He has known me for the last 20 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so for me, that set up has what's allowed me to not feel lonely because my life is busy. Also, I think when you get married, naturally on the weeknights I want to spend time with you. And we're investing in our relationship and my friends are in relationships, are also investing in their relationship. So if I'm now only seeing mates once a week, maybe once every two weeks, maybe once every month, how are we going to keep that relationship up? How am I not going to feel lonely? Because I don't have the time to be vulnerable. If I'm only seeing you once a month, I may not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart to be vulnerable. And I think for men in general, being vulnerable has been a long term difficulty.

[A]

I think about a lot of the men that I've seen and who've had that kind of surface level connection. Not surface level, but not a place of conversation with their friends where they can really speak about their heart. I'm actually feeling really like down today. Like you would not normally hear a man say that to their friend. How can someone who's used to doing these activities with their friends, who's used to connecting to them based on having a drink or going out and playing sport, how do you make that transition? Because I saw this trend on TikTok and it was these guys calling what, you know, that goodnight trend. But then it also turned into the one where you call and say, I'm just calling to say goodnight to you. And then also there was a trend saying, oh, do you think I should get therapy? A guy calling and asking their friends, do you think I should get therapy? And it was really interesting because you could tell the guys who don't have that connection with their friends and be like, oh, why are you being such a loser? Why do you need to go get wow. Or saying, you know, making fun of it versus even believing that it could be true. And so how would a guy who's so used to having twins, 20 years of this friendship where it's based on jokes and laughter and not really Talking about what's going on, make that switch. Because that can be quite uncomfortable for a lot of people, I imagine.

[B]

I mean, that you've raised such a good point, and I never saw that trend, but that's actually really sad for me that even in this day and age, when a man has plucked up the courage to say something like that, that it's met with that kind of reaction. Because you'd hope that there are athletes today who've talked about their mental health, understand that it's okay to not be okay. It's time to talk, it's time to change. You know, you got so much responsibility as an athlete to your team. You know, you gotta play at a.

[A]

Certain level and your teammates counting on you. You got the pressure from the media.

[B]

Everybody's going through something and everybody, you know, has things that you can't see, you can't touch. It's time for sport to accept its responsibility with this issue. There are athletes and sports and actors and musicians, male, who've spoken about the challenges with their mental health on all their platforms. I feel like we're living at a time where some of the toughest, strongest men on the planet talk about these things. And so I think we've got to shift the narrative that when you say something vulnerable that you're weak or that in some way you are a loser, or in some way that you're not strong. But I think as we have these athletes and superstars talking about their pain, I think there's also been a trend online which is of the alpha male, which is this idea of if you're a high value man, you don't talk about your feelings, you just have discipline and you break through it. And I always find this really, really interesting because I consider myself to be quite alpha and I consider myself to be quite emotionally engaged. And so I've always tried to do both. And I don't see them as a paradox. I see both as strength.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm disciplined, I enjoy working out, I enjoy competition. I love all those things. Yeah, you're nodding because you're like, yeah, I'm extremely competitive. And at the same time, I think talking about my feelings is really important. Emotional vulnerability is really important. And being able to make space for my friends and share is really important. So I think a part of it is, first of all, accepting within yourself that it's okay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think even before you start looking for people to share it with, do you still think it's a weakness? Because if you think it's a Weakness. Then when you share it and someone rejects it, you're just going to go and climb into your shell even more. Yeah, but if you think it's a strength and you believe it's value and you believe it's something you need, I actually, this is the hardest advice to give, but it's true. You can have your friends that you play football with and have bants with and have jokes with. And if they're not the ones that you can share this with, you may have to find a separate group of friends where you can talk about these things. And that doesn't mean you abandon your old friends. It doesn't mean your old friends are bad. It doesn't mean you have to leave them. It just means that you may have to start creating a community of new men that you can have this community with. Yeah, because if you're being met with, you're a loser, dude. You don't need therapy. You just need, you know, to get a pint down the pipe. If you're, if you're being met with that, then that's not an easy wall to break down.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

And it. First, you should try with your friends. You should try with the friends you have. But if you don't, you are going to have to start constructing a new group.

[A]

I've been seeing these really cool, I don't know why I'm getting these ads, but these really cool ads that. Not ads, but you know when there are retreats and stuff happening and there are so many men's retreats that happen.

[B]

There are, yes.

[A]

And I think, and you know, I remember recommending this to a friend whose partner was struggling. And I was saying, why don't you go on? Why don't you meet completely new people who are going somewhere for the, for the same reason if someone's going to a men's retreat, that means that they are lacking male friends and they are wanting to speak to people who are wanting to open their heart, connect, heal things from their past, whatever it is. But sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've been used to if you are trying something new with yourself. And I think the other part that I was going to mention that I remembered seeing online was, you know, there are all these really funny. I find them really funny. But at the same time I can see how for a man who's trying to be more emotional, it can make you shut down. It's, you know, when you have to now treat your man like a princess and essentially saying that men are being too emotional these days. And I think these days, women seem to want a man who is emotionally available but not emotional. So they want someone who's emotionally available, like, oh, I need him to understand me, and I want him to get where I'm coming from, and I want him to be attuned to me. But then I don't want him to cry. Like, I don't want. I don't want him to. When we're talking about icks, one of my friends said that one of her biggest icks is seeing a man cry or, like, be emotional.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was like, oh, wow. Like, okay, it's so interesting. But I do think whether a woman says it or not, there's quite a few people who feel that way, where a man crying is still seen as being a weakness. But I still want you to be emotionally available to me. And so I think for men seeing stuff like that online, we think it's. People think it's just funny. But I think that can be really difficult because it stops you then from also being okay with the idea that I should be able to cry, be unhappy, show that I'm feeling upset, depressed, whatever it is. And so I think a lot of what we see online can really play a role in how we feel.

[B]

And that's what makes it hard for men, because they then think. Now, whether that's. Sometimes it's so interesting as well, because social media perception is also not reality, but then we start believing that is. And then men go, God, I can't share that emotion around her because she's going to think I'm weak. But then I'm carrying this load, and I don't know what to do with.

[A]

It, which then changes me as a partner, as a person, being able to connect to other people.

[B]

And you would hope. You taught me this, and I loved it when you said it to me years ago, which was this idea that. And that's why your podcast is called a really Good Cry. Was this idea that crying and laughing are actually just the same, Two sides of the same. They're expressions of an emotion. And when you think something's. When you think something's really funny, you don't have to think about laughing. Like, you don't go, oh, that's really funny. I'm now gonna laugh. You just laugh because it's funny. You don't have to think about crying. Crying is something that happens when something affects you in your gut or your heart or your emotion. You just cry. You don't go, oh, now I'M gonna cry.

[A]

You also don't stop laughter, but people stop tears, correct?

[B]

Yeah. Or people will say, stop crying. Stop crying. You never say to someone, stop laughing. Stop laughing. It would be a weird thing to say.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we say, oh, no, no, don't cry about that. Don't cry about that. It's okay. And it's like, you wouldn't say, don't laugh about that, you know, unless you sound offensive. This was earlier this year, but Kendrick Lamar did a cover for Harper's Bazaar, and in that piece, he talked about.

[A]

Wait, they not like us. They not like us. Oh, no. Wrong person.

[B]

That is the right person.

[A]

Oh, there you go.

[B]

Yeah, good. All right. So he said. I'm sure he's going to be really impressed by that. He said, my tears is all on the Internet. So Lamar says, in reference to a viral moment where he cried on camera, and he goes, and now I look back and I love that moment. I love that that happened because it showed me in real time expressing myself and seeing all the work that I put forth actually come to life in that moment.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Right? And that's Kendrick Lamar, like, who's, you know, won, like, I don't know how many Grammys this year and performed at the super bowl. And. And he's saying that. And he goes on to say, my pops, he was tough. He never showed weakness. And I learned to experience that. But for what I do, there is certainly no growth without vulnerability. If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier, I could have had more depth and more reach to the guys that was around me.

[A]

I don't know whether I'm more shocked at that or the fact that you were a Drake concert last week, and I owe. Quoting Kendrick Lamar.

[B]

Why are you trying to start Beef?

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

I'm just saying, why are you starting Beef? Ravi? Why are you starting Beef?

[A]

But honestly, Kendrick, those are some bars, right?

[B]

It's just. It's. I'm sharing that because I hope it's empowering for men. Because you see, you know, the conversation about Kendrick is like, oh, yeah, rapper. He's having this rap battle. He's at the super bowl. You know, all this stuff. And it's like. But this is what he's saying about himself and his life. And he's talking about how his dad was tough. His dad never showed any weakness, and he learned that. But he's actually saying, I wish I learned the power of vulnerability earlier. And so I'm like, that's coming from.

[A]

You know, it's really difficult for People who, you know, just thinking about him as a rapper. But it's. I guess if someone who's a rapper and in that scene and in that environment can do something like that, it gives hope to people who may be in an environment like we were talking about before that find it difficult to break out of that same cycle of spending time with people. But I do think that community is the key factor to feeling like you can open up. And I think building community is one of the hardest things that people find. And that's why I think loneliness, especially in men, if they're not in a partnership, that also forces them to come together with couples and meet other men. It's like, where do people meet other people?

[B]

Yeah. And that's why I think. But I think the other challenges for men is that I think women like to gather in groups. But sometimes men have better conversations. One to one. I was at dinner last night with a guy, that someone that I. I became friends with early on. We were part of a meditation group that I was teaching. I bumped into him randomly at a grocery store once. We spent three hours that evening together.

[A]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[B]

We both have crazy travel schedules. We don't see each other often, but we happen to be in London. He's leaving today. And we made time to go to dinner together. And I'm not. We had. We both had the best time.

[A]

It was so nice.

[B]

And we probably spent three hours talking. It was full on open conversation. Like we dove in deep in 30 minutes and we both walked away going, we need to do that more. And I feel like that, like when I'm with a man, one on one and we're at the same frequency, I can lock in, actually, when I'm in group environments, I really struggle because you're trying to create a cohesive environment. But there may be two guys over there who just want to talk about the football.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There may be another two guys over there who just want to talk about whatever they, you know, whatever's happening at work or whatever it is. And then there's a couple of you that actually want to go deeper, but you can't. Because you can't direct what eight people are doing.

[A]

It throws off the frequency.

[B]

Yeah. Whereas I feel like women will all talk about one subject.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Together. Whereas I think a lot of men, I know personally that I feel building one to one friendships is the space where I get to do that. And it was interesting because this was talking about emotional conditioning and how girls and boys start out on the same trajectory of prioritizing. Friendships. But boys feel pressure to give up their same sex friendships because it feels girly. Oh, that idea of like hanging out together and us talking about our feelings. Boys are conditioned to feel that that's a girly thing to do.

[A]

What you felt with that guy is called a bromance.

[B]

One thing I learned as well was I needed. I needed friends in my industry because they also have a shorthand for how I feel. And that's how he felt too. It's like having friends that are in a similar industry.

[A]

You already have something in common. You already have an understanding. But, you know, I think women feel that way too. I've been speaking about a friend that I've made recently who feels, I feel like I've known for so long. But when you feel that connection to a friend, when you feel understood by them, when you feel like you can share a lot of yourself that you can't normally with other people, it really is, I think friendships are so close to the feelings of romantic relationships. And I don't mean that in a weird way, but it really is. It sparks the same excitement and because you feel understood. I remember you saying this, I think on my podcast where you said not everyone is supposed to understand you. And love is understanding and love is also so special that not. You don't feel it with so many people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so yes, you feel it in a romantic partnership, but how beautiful if you can actually feel it with friendships too. And I think women, women are, are feeling lonely as well. I think finding community. Yeah, I think finding community for women is so difficult because in women you also have this aspect of, unfortunately where gossip is a big part of connection. And I think that makes a lot of women feel insecure in friendships because gossip ends up being a big part of it.

[B]

Now you feel like if you say something to someone, they're going to tell someone else in the group and that trust being broken makes it uncomfortable to actually be vulnerable.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I think that's a big part of female friendship, unfortunately, especially what I grew up with. And I think this one to one connection, what you said is very important because even for women, finding that one to one connection where you feel you can confide in this person, I think for women a big thing is trust that. Can I trust what I'm telling this girl? She's not judging me. She's not going to share it with anybody else. I think that's something that's quite rare.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting hearing about it from that perspective. I found the one to one thing to be the solver for this, I've recommended to so many of my male friends and I've said, guys, we always hang out in big groups and I.

[A]

Used to be a pack person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've always loved hanging out in big groups and I've recently started spending individual time with someone that I really want to spend individual time with and it makes such a difference.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's also like, you have to find people who want to do this. So not every person I go out to dinner with like yesterday is somewhere where I walk away going, oh, we could do this anytime. Because maybe the conversation stays surface level. So there is a bit of frequency matching.

[A]

You have to assess the situation.

[B]

Yeah. Like I don't think. And I also don't think every friend of yours, to be a real friend, has to have a deep conversation with. There are friends that I'm happy to call up and be like, did you see what Manchester United just did? Like, I want to have that relationship with them and I would love if that can also go to mate, how are you feeling today? But not every relationship has to do that. And so sometimes I also feel we put too much pressure on everyone in our life to be everything.

[A]

What do you think are some good questions then that people could ask themselves like men? What are some good questions that men could ask themselves to understand? Am I feeling like. Am I feeling like I don't have a good connection with people? But then also questions that they can maybe open up this idea of vulnerability with their friends with that doesn't feel too scary or too intense.

[B]

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[A]

Even one friend?

[B]

Even one friend.

[A]

Yeah, that.

[B]

That's something I would look at. And then I would also ask for a man, do you have one friend that you could call to share your biggest win with? Because sometimes that can be harder.

[A]

Yes, good one.

[B]

Because sharing your pain is hard, but sharing your success is harder because it can come across as bravado, arrogance.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Et cetera. And so you may feel you have to play your success down. And so I think that's what I would look at. So that helps you figure out whether you're lonely or not. And then it's like, do you feel you have someone in your life who doesn't judge you and gives you the space to be all of yourself? And that's what you said. Women need that too. We all want a space in our life where we feel seen and not judged.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Actually, you say this. This is really interesting. This guy came up to me. He worked at the restaurant that I went to last night, and he came up to me afterwards when I was leaving, and he said, hey, I listen to the podcast, really love what you're doing. Me and my wife love what you and your wife are doing. And he said, but sometimes I just don't feel seen.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

And he said, sometimes I feel. Only successful people feel seen, and I'm still trying to become successful and I'm not there yet. And I said to him, I said, actually, success for people also don't feel seen because they feel seen through a particular lens. Whereas the most seen I feel is when I'm with my wife or with a deep old friend that I know and they see all of me. And I was like, you're gonna feel more seen if you spend time with people deeply and individually than you are if you have a global brand.

[A]

Yeah. If you have lots of eyes on.

[B]

You, if you have lots of eyes on your scene, doesn't mean you feel Seen?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like you, you have views, but you don't feel seen. And because people are ultimately catching you for 30 seconds and making a judgment on you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so anyway, I know I got off on a tangent, but.

[A]

No, but that's really. That's such a good point. I think, you know, even when you're younger, you think you need more friends and you have to have multiple people that you can do different things with. But as you get older, you realize that it's not necessarily about having how many people you can invite to your birthday. I was planning my birthday recently, and I remember calling. I was like, I think I have like eight friends who I can call here maybe. And I don't even know whether all of them are going to end up coming. And at that time, it made me realize how thankful I am for just those eight friends. It wasn't, oh, I've got 20 family members coming and like, eight friends coming. It was, oh, wow, I've got eight friends that are here that I want to spend time with. And then I was trying to collect other people and add people to it that I was like, do I really need these people here, or am I trying to collect numbers to feel like I've got more friends unnecessarily? And so I think the views versus being seen is a really important part of when you're thinking about friendships, because you don't need to have 100 people at your birthday party. You need three people that you can go to when you're in your hardest moments, when you feel like you've done something that you need to talk about that you're judging yourself about, that you feel that person's not going to judge you for. And that's so much more important than having the 30 friends at your birthday party.

[B]

I'm so glad you made my tangent relevant. Yeah, it was really good. That was really good. But no, that's exactly it. Like, I think. I think a lot of men feel lonely because we're always in crowds. That's the idea that you're always in groups. And so that same idea that you're saying is that we've always been taught that more friends means more happiness.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And less friends can actually equal more happiness if there's more intimacy and more depth to that relationship. Loneliness is linked to depression, anxiety, dementia, diabetes, stroke, and heart disease. And loneliness can be as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes per day.

[A]

Yeah. When I worked at the hospital, I would do these clinics for elderly, and it would be to do with them not eating. And it was so interesting. The underweight people that used to come in. In the elderly clinics would be like 80 men and only 20 women. Because they talk about how, especially for men, they're e habits, the way that they connect to people, if they're not having that interaction and if their partner's passed away or whatever, they lose the will to do much else in their life. And so it was really interesting seeing how 80% of those people that were coming in an old estate were people who were lonely, spent most of the time in their home. And even when it came to dementia, it says being in a community or feeling a sense of purpose in your life, whether it is within a community or whether it is with your partner, completely changes the trajectory of your. The progression of dementia and your longevity and the feeling of being wanted and needed in this world is so important to help keep your mental state alive. And so for men especially, I think there's a. I've seen so many older women who are able to get back up faster once their partners died. But I think naturally, for a man, from what I've seen, it ends up being a lot more difficult. So I think that's another reason why having friends is so important. Don't think about it for now. You have to think about it for your future, of when you are in a situation where maybe you have to be alone or away from your partner. Do I have people that I'm going to be able to turn to in those moments? Because that's what community is supposed to be there for.

[B]

Yeah. And the research shows that men are happier when they're married, but women are unhappy when they're married.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Or at least.

[A]

Oh, my Lord.

[B]

I think the actual. I think the actual study says that men live longer when they're married, and women don't live as long when they're married. Because I've seen that women carry on more stress.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And men are actually helped by the marriage.

[A]

You notice that when people lose their partners at a young age or even at old age, men struggle so much more than women do. Women are just used to going through the pain. They also are used to most of the systems and the things that they have to do in the house, like they're able to adapt faster, whereas I think for men, that's really difficult.

[B]

Yeah. This one was really interesting, and it's kind of based on what you're saying. There's this Jeffrey Hall, a professor of communication studies at the University of Kansas who studies friendships. He previously found it can take 200 hours to make a close friend.

[A]

200.

[B]

And he talks about how men rely on their wives to develop the social calendar. So they think, she'll do it and I don't have to do it. And he says that there's a challenge in their skill set. So it's the idea that women plan the social calendar and men just tag along to whatever the women plan and so they don't ever think about, well, I need to find a mate, I need to do this, I need to do that. My wife's kind of planned the weekend. We'll just do whatever she says. And so he doesn't really spend that much time around.

[A]

You're so good at planning your social calendar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you've really had to work at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've just like, you really had to make a point of saying, two days a week, I'm going to meet friends, I'm going to catch up with this. I feel like you've got a good system. In place of these are the friends I need to catch up with once a month. I'm going to do this with this person once a week, I'm going to meet this person. And it's good. You've really learned how to create that cycle and system to make sure that you do connect.

[B]

Yeah. That's how I like people to think about their life. Like, think about everything mathematically and everything becomes simpler.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you make it about, you know.

[A]

How you're feeling, how you're feeling on.

[B]

That day, it will just. It will. You know, there's so many times, like yesterday before the dinner, I was so close to canceling because I was a bit tired.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So glad I didn't. And that's where systems help. And so it's like, who do you want to see once a week? Who do you want to see once a month? Who do you want to see once a quarter? And who do you want to see once a year? If you have a list of the people in those buckets, it becomes really, really simple. So I'm with you every day. Whenever we're in the same country, we're together every day, which is awesome. And then. But then there's friends. I'm like, okay, I'm going to see you once or twice a week, I'm going to see you. And that allows me to simplify my life. And now it's not random. And then I don't go three months and go, why haven't I seen that person? Like, I love seeing them. And it's like, well, no, just have it in the system.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And now I don't have to feel that way. And so I'm just allowing myself to be more effective with friendships. And people think that that might be businesslike or transactional. Actually, that's what love and respect actually is, where it's like, I respect you enough. You're in the calendar. I want to see you every month.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it allows us to deepen our friendship. And then at the end of the year, we get to think about all the amazing memories we make. I think what we all have to realize is that friendship is a learned skill and it's not something you're born with. And so we almost assume that people should know how to be a good friend. We assume people should know how to be a good partner. We assume someone should know how to be a good parent. And the reality is all of those skills are learned. And so for me as a man, if you're listening to this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know that there are other men out there that feel lonely, which means that you actually have the opportunity to become community for each other. And that truly starts with you having the courage to share something vulnerably, openly, honestly, and seeing who matches that frequency. And it's as simple as that is not everyone's going to match your frequency. Someone might joke with you, someone might laugh at you. Someone might just play it off. That's okay. Because chances are in five to 10 years time, they may come back to you and say, I'm sorry I did that. I'm going through something right now. But for now, they aren't that person. That doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean you reject them. Just go find the people that you want to connect with. How have you seen men in your life, apart from me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Struggle or do well in friendships? What has worked for them and what has not worked for them?

[A]

Effy? I think sometimes, well, especially in our community, men have a lot of family members that they can, like, socialize with. But I have noticed as time goes on, you know, I think about my dad, and I remember he used to have like a huge social life when he was younger. And then as he's gotten older and older, that pool has definitely gotten smaller and smaller. But he. I randomly walk into his office or I randomly walk into the room, and. And he's having a conversation with his best friend, Mike uncle, who he's known since he was at university, and they're talking about things, whether it's through their physical health or their, you know, here and there. But they'll still have these once a month, catch up conversations. He doesn't really see them, they don't go out necessarily, they don't go out and have a meal together. But he has these two or three people who I know he is speaking to. There's like Andreas, there's Mike, uncle, there's one other person I know that he has these people that will check in on him and that he's checking in on. And so I think friendships also change as time goes on. They don't have to look the same way. You don't have to be going out. I don't know, I keep saying the pub. Why do I keep thinking that? That's the thing. You don't have to keep going out to the pub to meet your friends, but you know that those people are still available to you. And so I think what you were saying is, can you make that call? I know my dad seems like, I always wonder, oh, is my dad got friends and is he going out and about? But actually he's got those people he can call. And I think that's something that's built over time, university, and he's in his 70s, he's like 70 now. And he's kept that connection from that point. He knows every time I struggle with anything or he thinks he needs something, he calls them and he knows that they've got the advice or they've got the ability to help him. And I think that has been, again, it's a learned skill. It's been built, learnt and built over since he was 20 years old till 70. And that takes work, that takes the phone calls every week, the checking in every month, showing up when something's happened in their life. And so I think it takes a lot more effort than just, let's book a tennis court.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening, everyone. Drop in the comments how you've been creating great friendships, what you're struggling with. Maybe you'll even connect with people in the comment section, which we'd love to see. And make sure you tag me on Instagram and TikTok me and Radhi on what's resonated with you, what you're trying and the great friendships that come from this. So thank you for listening. Hey everyone, if you loved that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapy therapist, Lori Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.

[A]

If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.

[B]

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[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.