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On The Chain - Blockchain and Cryptocurrency News + Opinion
Interview with Anodos Finance – With Guests Panos and Peter
01:44:14
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- [00:01]
Jeff
Welcome to on the Chain. This is Jeff here with co host Chip. Welcome everybody out there in the on the Chain world. Excited to have two amazing guests with us today. Today we are going to be diving into the future of decentralized finance on the XRPL with two visionaries behind the Antidos project. We've got Panos Macross, a longtime XRPL advocate authority, CEO and co founder of Anodos. And joining him as co founder Peter Kondalis, sales marketing pro, visionary crypto investor, crypto disruptor and strategic partner and driving force behind the project's execution and expansion, along with Panos. And we're excited to get this rolling, Chip.
- [00:46]
Chip
Yeah, let's go ahead and. Let's go ahead and. Let's go ahead and roll this thing, guys. Ready? Let's go. Welcome to on the Chain. All right, Jeff, so why don't we bring him in? Ready? 1, 2, 3. From the magic. Let's go. Boom. There we go. There's Panos. Hello, panels. Peter, there you are. All right.
- [01:12]
Jeff
If I got stuck.
- [01:14]
Chip
So we.
- [01:15]
Jeff
The X accounts just got discounted.
- [01:16]
Chip
So here, you know, we followed Panos for years, you know, regulatory takes, takes. Also swashing a lot of the misrepresentations out there, the crypto insights. So we're now excited to see that vision, you know, coming to life with Peter and the Antidote's team. So let's, let's jump right into it, guys. We'll talk right into it. But thank you for joining us.
- [01:38]
Panos Macross
Thanks for having us.
- [01:39]
Chip
Yeah.
- [01:39]
Peter Kondalis
Glad to be back.
- [01:40]
Chip
It's great to be back. Panels is back. He's a two time. When you get to the five time you get the official hoodie. When you appear five times on there, it's like the Saturday live. When you get the jacket, we got official hoodie. If you've been on five times, we ship you out a hoodie and then it has all the on the chain goods.
- [01:54]
Jeff
Chip, just real quick. Sorry, it's just a technical thing. I don't know if on your end you see that Streamyard lost access to your X account.
- [02:04]
Chip
I did not see that does.
- [02:06]
Jeff
Do you have a. Look up at the right hand corner. Do you have a green check or a red exclamation mark next to Europe?
- [02:11]
Chip
I don't. To be honest with you. I don't see anything up there. Hang on a second. Let me double check here. I do see a green check next to yours. Yeah.
- [02:20]
Jeff
Okay. You know my side and shows that you're disconnected. As soon as we rolled, I tried to reconnect, but it wasn't working.
- [02:27]
Chip
Yeah, you know what?
- [02:27]
Jeff
Do it on your end.
- [02:28]
Chip
I did get re.
- [02:30]
Jeff
You have to go in and authorize.
- [02:32]
Chip
I'm signing in right now to do that.
- [02:33]
Jeff
Sorry, guys.
- [02:34]
Chip
I'm on that.
- [02:34]
Panos Macross
Okay.
- [02:35]
Jeff
Make sure that we're rolling live. That's why I failed to bring Peter in, because Elvis, I was trying to get to that before we.
- [02:41]
Chip
No worries.
- [02:42]
Panos Macross
All right, so regular experience for us in tech. There's always something that might just stop or glitch.
- [02:46]
Jeff
It's so crazy. It's always something. We're here live, and, you know, you just never know what happens. So it's always fun. Everybody in the. In the audience is used to our technical antics, so. And this platform, it's funny. They'll make adjustments to stream yard. And as you guys know, in the tech space, you can fix one thing, or you roll out something and you break something else on, you know, that you don't even realize. And apparently, this is what we're. We're up against. Chip, why. Why you're doing that? I'll roll with these guys with a, you know, first kind of. First questions. You know, it'd be. It would be great kind of to look into and, you know, get some icebreakers just to. To know. Get. Get to know you guys a little bit, you know, other than, you know, what you're doing with Antidos. But, you know, one thing, and we'll start Peter, and then we'll go to Panos. What's one thing that people would never guess about you?
- [03:48]
Panos Macross
Passion that I make chocolate.
- [03:51]
Jeff
Chocolate.
- [03:54]
Chip
There you go.
- [03:56]
Jeff
That is interesting. Dark chocolate. Milk chocolate.
- [04:00]
Panos Macross
I don't touch milk chocolate. I deal with dark and white. And even though I never liked dark chocolate, so very briefly, I was on vacation in Greece. And in Greece, they don't usually have, like, a dessert menu. Usually it's you're asked, how do you want to be treated? Like some fruit or some, you know, spirits or whatever. A handmade dessert was just made. And when the waiter mentioned this dessert, I was like, I've never heard of that. And he kind of looked at me, and we're speaking in Greek the whole time. He's like, are you Greek? And I'm like, yeah. He's like, everybody grew up with his desserts. And I was like, me? And, you know, fast forward a couple years later, I started tinkering with it because I. I just. I was just curious. I was like, how come nobody's ever tried to innovate this dessert? And I'm Not a baker. I mean, put me in front of the grill, ask me to make some sauces, no problem. But I'd never touch anything. Baking, just not my thing. It's too scientific, too exact. And I tried it, and lo and behold, I got obsessed. I got obsessed.
- [04:58]
Chip
Wow.
- [04:59]
Panos Macross
I started making all these different versions of it that have never existed before. I've had, you know, professional chocolatiers asking where I went to chocolateier year school. I was like, home. I went home. I'm just insane, you know, I just did a lot of trial and error, and a lot of people were shocked to the point where I had brought it into a store. I actually brought it for a couple of girls that were working at the store because they were talking about how much they like chocolate. I'm like, let me bring you some. And the owner looked me up and you see my look, you know, I mean, I'm. I'm not like the. The geek looking kind of guy. I'm like a little bit, you know, the. The rebellious type. Right. I don't look like a frou frou chocolatier guy. So the. The owner looked at me, he's like, he's like, where do you import this from? I'm like, my house.
- [05:39]
Chip
Make it.
- [05:40]
Panos Macross
Well, yeah. So that's something a lot of people never expect. When I say I do chocolate, they're always shop.
- [05:46]
Jeff
We definitely didn't expect that. Panos Havanas. How about you?
- [05:50]
Peter Kondalis
For me, I would say maybe that, you know, I'm. I'm an introverted. I don't really like public speaking, you know. Com. You know, when people see my, let's say, Twitter Persona and you know, how I misinformation, all this kind of stuff. Yeah. But actually in person, I'm much more reserved and calm.
- [06:08]
Jeff
Oh, wow, that's. That's interesting, you know, especially as a. As you get out there in front of groups and you have to be out in front of the X space. Yep. Chip, Howie, how's it going on your end?
- [06:22]
Chip
Jeff, you wouldn't believe the nightmare that this is. I'm gonna just continue to go on. I'm like, every time, like we've been using this software for five years, and now in the middle of a broadcast, it's asking me. It's like very I' to it.
- [06:33]
Jeff
Everybody's pushing over to mine right now, so my X feed is filling up, which is good. So here, here's another one. And this could be, you know, you're. You're sit. You're sitting at a cafe in Athens, you with one hour and perfect WI fi. What's the app that you're launching or fixing first? What, what do you do? What's your favorite. But what your favorite app?
- [07:00]
Panos Macross
So first of all, first of all, I just gotta say that the, the WI Fi in Greece, oh my gosh, it's horrendous. So I don't, I don't, I don't think I would be brave enough to even think about downloading any app or trying to fix anything. I think, I think I would just get out my emails. I would like, you know, send SOS to friends and family saying, I'm here, I'm alive, everything's good.
- [07:22]
Chip
You know, we can't talk to you. Panos, what about you? What would you. I mean, let's just put that aside. Let's just assume. I have a feeling I know which one you might launch, but which one would you be launching first? You're in the cafe having a nice coffee or something. Some.
- [07:38]
Peter Kondalis
Twitter is like always the number one up.
- [07:40]
Chip
I knew it.
- [07:41]
Jeff
Yeah.
- [07:41]
Peter Kondalis
I mean, always notification, like, see what's going on. You know, it's, it's the number one place to be in crypto, like to get updated with news. And then of course it's like discord because, you know, that's where we talk with our team, our developers and getting like the updates and any issues you might have. So, yeah, that's the first one, the first two.
- [08:04]
Chip
So then the ultimate question is iOS or Android? So we'll go with panels first. I knew it was going to be Android.
- [08:12]
Jeff
Android. There we go, 100%.
- [08:15]
Chip
Look at you guys. I'm the only outcast here. I'm the only iOS.
- [08:19]
Jeff
One of these things just doesn't belong.
- [08:22]
Peter Kondalis
I'm a Mac guy. I mean, I transitioned like from Windows to PC to Mac last year.
- [08:27]
Chip
Yeah.
- [08:28]
Peter Kondalis
And I love Mac. I love, like, how it works. But when it comes to phones, I mean, I can't stand iPhone. I mean, I just don't really like or I'm comfortable with, let's say, user experience and how it works and all the, let's say, limitation it has compared to Android. So I love that. Freedom, innovation. So that's why I go to Android.
- [08:48]
Chip
People always talk about the, about the limitations. I'm like, well, maybe for guys that code and stuff, I've never come across any, anything that would be. But yeah, I've been on a Mac forever, man. I've been on PCs. So I think the Mac environment, definitely a better, A better environment, I would say. But, but that's great. So I'm. I feel like. I feel very lonely here today, man. There's usually somebody that comes across. I knew Thanos would be the cheater. Look at that, man. Look at that. I'm outnumbered, you know. So, Panos, if you had to describe anodos in one word, let's say to like, your grandparents, like, and they're like, geez, Panace, what do you do? How would you describe it? To, like, someone like one of your. One of your grandparents, like a family member? They're like, what do you do? Exactly. You have your thing. But how would you explain it to them in a way that they could really understand what anodos is?
- [09:33]
Peter Kondalis
So I would say that, you know, we're building financial apps. So in simple words, we want to change how people spend, grow, and manage their money. So I mean, to explain, let's say, to the average person is by saying, you know, you know how banks work. Basically, they control your money. You can. They can restrict you, but put all those limitations to you wherever you want. So we want to change that and allow you to have full control, be your own bank, and just do whatever you want with your money.
- [10:05]
Chip
So does that sound appealing when, like, when you're talking to people that maybe don't know the space as well? I mean, when you explain that to them? Because I can imagine somebody saying, okay, that sounds interesting. Tell me more. Like, how do I get started? How do I get involved? And even people right now that are watching live or maybe watching on the rewatch or listening to the podcast, you know, what would be the first place you would tell them to sort of get started? Because it can be a big, scary world because people buy into the concept, but they go like, okay, how do. What do I do? And how can it help me in my life? Like, what. What would be the unique, you know, some of the things that I would myself personally be interested in, you know.
- [10:38]
Peter Kondalis
What the problem is that, you know, and, you know, we are not there yet. But our end goal is to basically build, let's say this, killer apps that, you know, the users and the people don't even have to realize that it's blockchain or, you know, all these, you know, complexities. We know about the crypto space in the background, so we want, like, to hide all this. So, you know, how you use, let's say, any other app in your phone or how you use, let's say, your online banking app. And, you know, you spend money, you just sign up. So you. We want to Hide all these things. So in the end I don't think we will even have to explain them. You just download the app and you're ready to go. We are not there yet. So for now we are, let's say we have our docs, we have our documentation, we have, have an education section where we explain and we start from, you know, what is money to how the backing system works, what is blockchain. And we go step by step so they can really understand what all this thing is about and they can start interacting with technology. But yeah, at the end of the day we want to reach the point where, you know, we don't even have to explain all these things. Peter?
- [11:49]
Panos Macross
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day I think that sometimes people get lost in trying to understand all the technology. And look, I'll be very honest, I don't know how the dual processor works on my phone. I do know that if I want to make a video call I can press the button and it'll work. So I don't really need to know. And ultimately I think what's, what's the most important thing that's very much overlooked in blockchain in general. And I've had this discussion many, many times. It's not just a matter about the best tech, it's a matter about being the most user friendly. When you look at, for example, operating system, we were just talking about Apple and iOS and all that sort of thing that all that's great. However, I think we could all agree that Linux is the best operating system there is for many, many reasons and yet it's not mass adopted. Most people don't know about Linux, most people don't know how to use it. And the brilliance of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Bill Gates to some extent is they had, they had the foresight, right, to give out an operating system that was ready to use out of the box. And I think that's what's massively lacking in crypto and panels. And I have a massive, massive passion for making real world solutions for the everyday individual, the small business owner, the medium sized business owner. It's great what all the, what all the projects are doing out there with infrastructure but you know, you could build all the infrastructure and you want that you want, at the end of the day, when you walk into a brand new building, you want to be able to flip a light switch, you want to be able to press the button to get into the elevator. This is, these are the types of solutions we're focusing on. If that makes A little bit more sense.
- [13:23]
Chip
Well, yeah, people get in a car, they don't need to know how the car works. They don't need to know what's going on with the engine. It's combustible if it's a battery, if it's a Tesla, they jump in, they power it, they know it's either. It's either got juice or it doesn't have juice. So this is a great point you're bringing up and something that Jeff and I have struggled with as well. He said like, well, I want to. How do I get in? When you buy xrp, what do I do? You go to Exchange. Then what do you do? Then you click on this and you do this and you do. And they're like, okay, hang, hang on, slow down. Right. So it becomes almost too complicated for like a regular user. And that's something you guys have spent a lot of time on, especially with the ui. That's one of the things I've noticed you guys, from when you started to where you are now, you've constantly been involved in the UI that now it feels very user friendly. But also too, sometimes you don't have to go like, what do I do next? You just know where to go. So I think that's a big part of it. So. Yeah, Very well said, Peter.
- [14:10]
Panos Macross
Thank you. It's, it's been, it's actually the, the whole purpose why Panos and I became partners. I mean, we were having a lot of conversations and was constantly back and forth. Yeah, but all you have to do is this. Yeah, but I'm not going to do this. You know, and then it's like, yeah, but there's this, that and the other. Yeah, but, you know, like, I've owned two web design companies that they were. I, I sold them both. It was a good exit on both of them. I don't know how to write a line of code. Okay. I don't know how to do any of that stuff. What I know how to do is I know how to connect the dots between people. I know how to understand what your problem is. I know how to have the conversation with the developer. I understand enough of the technology and all the lingo of how to get my, my message across. And what I said was, I need to be able to solve a problem because all my clients were in the United States. They're primarily attorneys, doctors, you know, more white collar professionals. And what I brought to the table for them was I know that, you know, you could make your own website, but we also both know that you're not going to sit there and try and figure out how to jimmy the picture into the right spot and how to do it. You're not going to waste your time with all that stuff. That's your first option. Your second option is hire a web designer who's going to charge you, you know, five figures. And you don't want to spend that money because you don't want to go back and forth with this tech person. You don't understand. So here enters Peter. I'm going to be liaison. I'm going to say, what is it you do? Okay, great. You do patent law. Great. What kind of colors do you like? Show me a couple of websites you like. I'll get back to you with a sample. Okay. And then show them a sample. And I was like, yes, I like this. Okay, great. Just give me the content and I'll put it on for you. And I solved the problem for them and I put them on a subscription based. They didn't have to put a whole lot of money out of pocket. They knew they could call me on my cell. They're not going to get some customer service experience. They could call me on the weekend, they could text me. I'm readily available for them. Right. So this was a massive, massive solution at the time in a Web2 environment. So I was constantly looking at everything in web 3 the same way. I was like, who's gonna do. Like you said, Chip? I mean, who's gonna. Who's gonna sit there and figure out how to do a wallet? Then they're gonna be scared that, let's say they sent the money to the wrong place. Well, there's no ach. Right? What are you gonna do now? What are you gonna do now? You're. You're totally, totally shaking in your boots. So you're sending, like, one XRP at a time to see where. Okay, it worked. Okay, now let me send more. Oh, it's. It's lagging a little bit because my Internet's down. What. What's going. All this panic.
- [16:28]
Chip
Yeah.
- [16:28]
Panos Macross
So these are the conversations panels. And I had, I admired and, and I see it all the time. I admired very much the way his approach was no nonsense. It was straight to the point. And then we, we developed a lot of different conversations throughout the. The time we've been partners. And, you know, ultimately it's. That's. What we're looking to do is we're trying to eliminate all the nonsense. We're trying to simplify everything. We're trying to have functional Solutions that don't require, you know, getting a degree. Like you should be able to just go in and use the, the technology. And that's.
- [16:57]
Chip
Yeah, and what we'll do is we'll get to a demo. But the no nonsense approach, you talked about panels and this, people sometimes get frustrated like because if you correct them and you bring the extra. I've seen panels really take somebody's comment and turn them around and then the next thing they do is block them because they can't engage in a conversation because they're talking about stuff that, you know, maybe an influence out there. It stands. I mean there's so much misinformation out there. Right. So when, and this is what I connected with panels right away is that I see this the way that the approach to how you talk to people and make it about the facts, hey, this is what it does, this is what it is. This is what the XRPL was created for. And so taking that into Anodos and realizing that the same way there was this hole that needed void that needed to be filled. And that's why, you know, we want to help spread the message because we believe really heavily in what you guys are doing and, and building something defy, especially for the masses. And so I guess it comes down to the masses and I don't know, at some point we'll get into a little bit of a demo so people can kind of see exactly how that, what that looks like. But I mean for people to get involved, you know, what, where would you say the best way to way to start is for people out there.
- [18:10]
Peter Kondalis
Thanos, you mean for XRPL or you know.
- [18:13]
Chip
Well, I'm just saying no for anodos. Right. So people that are new to Anodos or maybe have kind of cursory heard of it, right. They've maybe seen some, some, you know, maybe they follow, you know, the X account and kind of know you guys a little bit. But where would it be? Let's talk about how people can get started. You know, where some of the benefits are and some of the areas that, that they would look to because they're watching this interview right now like, hey, how does it work? What do we, you know, where do I get started?
- [18:35]
Peter Kondalis
So yeah, the main idea when we started analyst, it was the period where, you know, the AMM was announced that, you know, there's an AMM coming on xrpl and you said, you know, that's a great idea to start with that. And you know, because the DEX is the core feature of xrpl. I mean it's the main functionality, it's, it's. And basically the reason it was created for tokenization, like exchanging value. The DEX is the most important thing on the whole ecosystem. So bringing an AMM into it was a big upgrade. And until at that point there were like two or three interfaces and platforms that provided, let's say access to the dex. But from the feedback we got from most of the community, the UI and UX was terrible, was very confusing for most people and even today, you know, I did a poll like two weeks ago and half of the community has never even used DEX yet, which is crazy to think about a deck that exists for 13 years and you know, half of the people have never used it and you know, understand the problems, the issues, you know, terrible ui, UX and let's say the non user friendly platforms is one thing but then it's also, but there are some problems, not enough liquidity, not enough, let's say quality assets. I can understand all the points. So yeah, we must work, let's say together as projects, as an ecosystem to bring that activity and what the ecosystem needs. But yeah, we started with that. So we wanted to build a user friendly platform for the AMM and people could interact with this feature. So yeah, the way to go is, you know, you go to our platform Anodex and you can already connect one of the existing wallets you have like Zaman, Cross, Mark jm, all the native XRP wallets. But the problem is it's still not addressed to the average person. Is something we are working on right now with V2. And the idea is again to hide all these complexities for the user. And what we are trying to build is through a set of integrations like Passkis for example which if you know about passkys are everywhere right now in the whole big tech everyone uses Apple, Microsoft, Google, everyone uses passkeys now It's a very secure and very user friendly way to sign up and sign in in the platforms with your biometrics and we are the first to bring that on xrpl. So we are working on a solution so that any user, you can like bring anyone who has no idea about XRPL or blockchain and in few seconds they just sign up with their biometrics and they create an XRP account like just like that. No private key management, no words or seed phrases, everything is used, secured by let's say the passkeys and the MPC technology. So they just sign up in seconds and then they are good to go and interact with xrpl. So this is the first step to simplifying onboarding and then it's, you know, we are the first platform on XRPL that has both on ramp and off ramp integrated. So you don't even have to go to other platforms or exchanges and having to sign up to multiple platforms just to get one token and then send it to your wallet. You just go to our platform and we have created this one stop shop where you know, we just can sign up on ramp with your wallet trades, interact with the amm, provide liquidity and then off ramp to your bank account or other options we have. So yeah, the reason you can, you can like just do everything you want on xrpl we provide this one stop shop. So that's what we're working on right now.
- [22:16]
Jeff
That's really.
- [22:16]
Chip
Yeah.
- [22:17]
Jeff
And that the one thing that really resonates and Chip had brought this up before but the complexity that is faced in, in this space is that most users from a mainstream perspective, it's way, you know, just getting in, it's confusing, right. And they're, everyone's scared to, to dive in. So first it was kind of those that were comfortable in and around tech and then you still have the conversations with people to get involved and you know, it's good to see the direction that you guys are going in. You know, nice ui, not having to have a complex understanding of the back end of it. What would you say that your primary market is? Would you say it's retail or are you going after business?
- [23:04]
Peter Kondalis
So basically Anodex, which you know, gives you access to the Dex and the AMM is probably the only, let's say crypto native product we will ever build because you know, we wanted to start and you know, introduce ourselves and you know, build this user friendly platform for the XRP community. But after that, you know, we are going after the masses. So the average person in business and you know, I don't know if you've seen about Anopay. I made like a couple of posts. It's like you know, the killer app we think, you know, that will that the ecosystem needs and not just the XRPL but the whole industry. You can imagine like you know, if you have used like Revolut, Venmo, you know, any let's say online backing or payment app, we want to bring that solution on chain powered by XRPL and stablecoins and you know, with all these complexities completely abstracted so the users, the user will not even know that there is blockchain, you know, XRPL tokens used to the background they will just see let's say US dollars but it's using, let's say rusd. Why the user should know that there is a token being used for, you know, it can be faster, cheaper, you know, utilizing the XRPL tech, but the user doesn't even need to know it. So yeah, the target next is to, you know, to target the average person in small businesses where we think we can benefit more from that technology. You know, Ripple is going after the institutions and the big players and you know I, I have said this comparison that you know, Ripple is for institutions what Anodex is for consumers. So yeah, we're going after the consumers, the small players and yeah, I mean we have Anodex, the only crypto native product and then it's you know, for, for mass consumers.
- [24:45]
Jeff
Yeah and we, we've been talking about the XRPL utilizing the technology when you, when you were getting into it and trying to make a determination, hey, which platform is going to be best to build on? Is it going to be Ethereum? Is it going to be, you know, are you going to use the xrpl maybe a, you know, platform like so I mean there's a bunch of them where there's opportunity. Why, why choose the XRPL over the other options that were out there?
- [25:16]
Peter Kondalis
Well, I think, you know, there is a lot of maximalism in the space we're on that, you know, in, in every community and you know, XRPL doesn't fall back in that. And yeah, I mean xrpl, I believe it's the best technology when it comes to tokenization and financial use cases. It's, it's definitely one of the best. But in the end, you know, the user, the end user, you know, should have nothing to do about it and they shouldn't even know about it. So it's only up to the developers and the projects, the companies building these applications that you know, they should care about, let's say the technicalities and technologies. But in the end, you know, the future is multi chain. Yes, XRPL is great but that's why there is also the EVM sidechain coming. We have Zaha, we have Axel, are bridging all of them. So you know, the XRPL alone is not enough. We need for example more advanced features like smart contracts that you know, can bring programmability and more advanced features. The extrapill doesn't have that. So yeah, we will need to also Utilize other networks to give the best possible solutions to, to our users. I don't know if Peter has to add anything more.
- [26:28]
Panos Macross
The only thing, the only thing I'd like to really add on all that because I mean you know, panel says.
- [26:32]
Peter Kondalis
Everything very well so you don't really.
- [26:34]
Panos Macross
Need to add too much one after panel speaks. But to go back to a little bit about what Chip was saying with like you know, for the average user, for people that are new or whatnot into the space in general. So I think, I think the first thing that I would like to add to that is if you go to analyst finance you're going to see we have a lot of resources, there's a lot of educational resources, people could read and learn. Secondly, I would say that do what I did, which is go on Twitter, go on to the spaces and just listen to people have having conversations. Don't necessarily take any, any first hand approach that anybody is saying. Don't necessarily get married, you know like panels was talking about maximalism. Don't get married to any chain. Just understand what is it that you're interested in. Like for example, for myself, so I've worked for hsbc. I was the west coast division manager for all accounts receivable in Canada at the age of 22. I've worked at CIBC Accounts Receivable, I've managed collection agencies, I've sales done sales consulting. I've, I've worked very much in touch with financial institutions. So for me what made the most sense was projects that were dealt and solved more financial problems. And that's why I was looking at the XRPL in general. I saw a huge, huge, huge potential in use case. I saw a major disconnect in the entire space. You know that's why I personally am very excited about axelar and interoperability because there's no way there's gonna be just one, one chain or one type of tech that's going to rule them all. It's just impossible. So at the end of the day you could have a lot of I believe and again this is just my personal opinion, you can have a lot of financial understanding, you can have a lot of technical technology. Understanding doesn't necessarily mean you're just going to understand blockchain. So it's good to go in and just look at everything. Take every, take a grain with a grain of salt. Just really check everything out. Take your time to understand what's the fundamental differences between projects. Like Panos and I were always looking at projects to see if we Want to partner with somebody or if we want to invest in somebody. You know, there's some very, very basic fundamentals just for the, the viewers that you might have now that are completely new. Understand the difference between inflationary and deflationary projects and why that's important. Understand who the project, who the team is. If they're just showing you, for example, a one, one word name and a little NFT as a picture. Well, listen, I mean, you know, would you, would you buy, would you buy a bridge from somebody wearing a mask who's knocking on your door? I don't think so. Right, so it's the same type of thing. You need to do your own research. We say that over and over, but you need to understand what resonates with you. So for me personally it's, it's solving business problems. Like for example, NFTs, smart contracts. You know, here in Canada, for example, we have, we have a thing called a notary. This is who you're going to go to if you're going to buy or sell some big property, a home or a business. And they're going to be the centralized body that's going to give that seal stamp of approval that this is a legitimate transaction. Well, you know, NFTs could do that, smart contracts could do that. So there's a, it's understanding where things are going. Just like a lot of people, including myself, I'm not ashamed to say it. When GPS came out in Web two and they're saying, oh, you know, they put up the military grade GPS and this is amazing and all that stuff, I was like, great, man, okay. You know, I'm okay with printing out MapQuest and using the map and just driving, so I'm okay with that. It's not a big deal. Well, ergo, what happened after, you know, Uber, UberEats, Lyft, Amazon, you know, you know, a seven year old little boy could open up a cupcake business from home and have like a fleet all because of gps. So these are things that are completely impossible to consider before GPS and almost impossible to have the foresight to see what's coming. So this is what's exciting about Web3 for anybody who's new here. Like, I mean this is really exciting stuff. This isn't a gimmick, it isn't a fad, it's very exciting. I just wanted to add that.
- [30:31]
Chip
That's awesome man. I love the way, and it's funny because we were looking, you're talking about this. I always laugh when I see these like NFTs and some no name people. You're going to rug the hell out of somebody. I'm like, people are like, here's the team. And I'm like, nfts are your team. It's amazing. So this is what you were talking about, the full transparency. If you go to the about on, you know, Anodos Finance, you can see that this is a real team with real people. And what's oddly enough, the only person we've hung out with in person is Neil Cadman. We've, we've, we've, we've hung out with Neil. I was going to pull up a picture of Neil and I and Jeff on the phone here, but you know when we were in Australia last year and Neil was there and was really cool and I got to know Neil a little bit and, and so that's pretty cool that I didn't even know. And of course Fabian too, which a little incident happened this week where somebody jacked his account and he's like, hey, I'm working on a documentary. I'm like, for what documentary? You guys are. We're a financial app. I was like. And I was like, okay, tell me more. And it was like, I got that. Then I reached out to panel. So he's like. And then he sent me the post on X that somebody compromised. Has that been solved yet? Has he gotten his account back?
- [31:35]
Peter Kondalis
I mean he connected his support. They said they need a few days to like examine this but you know, it's a like scam that is going on everywhere and I almost fall for it. Like last week, you know, there was someone calling, you know, saying they want to invite me into a podcast, you know, do an interview with me. You know, they sent me the questions and everything and then they sent a link, you know, you need to download this to you know that this is where we do, let's say the podcast. And you know, I was ready to click and then you know, I realized, you know, that's not happening. I mean I'm not clicking anything. If you have any Google made, zoom know in online, sure, whatever. But not cling any new links. That's, that's great.
- [32:12]
Chip
There you go, right there.
- [32:13]
Panos Macross
Cool.
- [32:14]
Chip
There we are. There we are.
- [32:16]
Panos Macross
Amazing.
- [32:17]
Chip
The team. Yeah. So it's odd that the person we met from your team is not here, but it's like some. I can always fly up to Montreal and say hello.
- [32:25]
Panos Macross
There you go.
- [32:26]
Chip
Right.
- [32:26]
Jeff
Hey, we got some questions that are coming in with the, from the.
- [32:30]
Chip
This is a good one. To address a big misconception That's a great one.
- [32:33]
Jeff
Yeah. So how does Anodos compare to the Xaman wallet?
- [32:38]
Peter Kondalis
So yeah, Xaman is a wallet while Anodos is, let's say, defy project that builds apps that integrates these wallets like xaman. Although as I said, we have also our own wallet solution coming with passkeys, which abstracts and simplifies the whole onboarding process. But yeah, we have multiple wallets integrated. So yeah, Zaman is a wallet while we, we build apps on xrpl.
- [33:03]
Jeff
Okay, great. And that was the raised follow up. Does Anna store your crypto? Can you use Anodos like a wallet? So that's, yeah.
- [33:10]
Peter Kondalis
So once we have like the pass keys, I mean it's, it will not be, let's say, a way that anyone can use or integrate. It will be specifically focused for one of those products. So this, you know, when you enter into another subs, you'll just be able to sign up and create an account with passkeys like you can do on Web2 platforms. That's the, that's the thing. And that's also a misconception. Misconception. We are confusing, we see about users because when someone is coming from Web2 and it's used to, let's say, social logins, you know, when you go to a platform, you just create a new account. It's a new account from every, you know, website or platform you boot. But I mean, Web three, yes, you can use your existing wallet on like many platforms. But if we want, let's say that simplicity, then, you know, we win. We, we need to go more into the Web two ideology where, you know, the user doesn't even need to know about, as I said, private keys, all this complicated stuff and, or download like a separate app for their wallet. They just go into the platform, sign up like they will do in any Web2 platform and that's it. In a few seconds you're set up, up.
- [34:20]
Jeff
That's a big deal.
- [34:21]
Peter Kondalis
And yeah, I mean we'll keep supporting all the native crypto wallets, but in the end of the day, if we want to target the masses and the average person, yeah, we need to obstruct all this complexity.
- [34:33]
Jeff
So here's, here's another question for both you guys, especially as we look out from a, from a marketing perspective as you're joining the marketplace, you know, we have platforms like Uphold, platforms like Coinbase, Gemini, Kraken, you know, there's, there's a bunch of them that you know, where you can connect in your bank, you can on ramp, you can off ramp right through there. What, what would you say is the standout difference with Antidote versus all these, you know, these other platforms to where? Well, let's start with that and then the second follow up to that would be, you know, how are you guys going to attract customers? But let's, let's start with like what's the standout feature of Anodos versus these other platforms?
- [35:18]
Panos Macross
You want to take the first one panel so I take the second one.
- [35:20]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, yeah, that's what I would say. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, basically you know, uphold Coinbase. You know, all these platforms are, you know, as we know, centralized entities and you know, we are pro decentralization. You know, we are big defi advocates and you know, in the end of the day we want to empower everyone to be their own banks and have full control and custody of their assets. We will never like build custodial solutions. And you know, okay, uphold Coinbase. You know, all these platforms are let's say great for let's say the average person that wants to, let's say sign up and buy a few crypto and start their journey. But that's not where you know, you should actually interact. I mean you can't interact with defy apps and you know, you just use these exchanges to buy and then you have to send this outside of the exchange to a crypto wallet which adds more complexity and confusion around it. So if you have like as I said, you can already on ramp in our platform directly. So you don't even need to use any exchange like that. So why not just buy with your card with an on ramp provider we provide and the crypto gets direct to your wallet. You don't need this middleman called in.
- [36:30]
Chip
The US who would be that like in the US like do you have different on ramp providers depending on who they where your location is in the world?
- [36:38]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, we're using like a partner with it has like all the on ramp providers aggregated. So you always be able to see depending on the jurisdiction you are, you know what on ramp providers or off ramp are available to you and you can compare the rates. So yeah, whatever is available in your region, you'll be able to see that and just buy directly with different methods. Maybe bank transfer card, even like PayPal, you know, depends on the provider. So you don't even need to use centralized exchanges anymore. You can remove, we can remove now that friction and let's say you know, because unfortunately many people still hold their crypto on exchanges which I think is very bad. And we have seen so many hacks and like, not just hacks, but. And if the like, let's say the exchange goes, you know, the entity goes away and you lose your money. But other than that, you know, you know that centralized entities can put restrictions to you, you want to withdraw and they say, you know, the system is under maintenance. They put all these, let's say, different limitations to you.
- [37:43]
Jeff
We never saw that with Coinbase.
- [37:46]
Chip
You can't move it off there. Like when it comes time to move it off, you know, I've seen it.
- [37:51]
Panos Macross
On Bitbuy and on Newton and not to call them out, but they're. They're the two ones that are widely used in Canada and they have to call them up.
- [37:58]
Jeff
We just take all of them. They get, yeah, they get caught up. Yeah. Remember those days with Co base, I'll pull all of them went through that.
- [38:06]
Peter Kondalis
Like all the hidden fees. And you know how some exchanges promote this, let's say staking and earn programs, which basically if you do that by yourself on defi apps, you can earn like much more. They just, they just use your money to your crypto to let's say stake or you know, take yield from defy apps and they take a bit cut and just give you, let's say four or five, whatever, you know, the interest is, while you could earn the whole thing and yeah, more by doing it by yourself. Which it's still strange to think how, you know, many people prefer, you know, it might be simpler, but in the end of the day, you don't have any control of your money.
- [38:43]
Panos Macross
Too much. It's too much to consume. I think if I'm just gonna add to that point, I think it's too much to consume for the average user. I mean they gotta have to figure out how they're gonna store their keys on something. Like they're gonna get a ledger. Maybe there's some friend of theirs is telling them how they 10x on some NFT now they're looking for the next NFT. They're looking at meme coins. They don't know what the deal is with that. You know, there's all these things happening simultaneously. It's like imagine there was no Internet and then all of a sudden there's Instagram, Facebook, all this stuff. You would lose your mind. There's no way you'd be able to follow. That's what's happened in Web3. That's my personal belief.
- [39:17]
Jeff
It's happening fast. So, you know, so as you start marketing and you're trying to attract the consumer. You know, how do you, how do you go about, you know, navigating that and attracting all of these new consumers to the platform?
- [39:30]
Panos Macross
So for, for us, I would say the, the main, the main focal point of the marketing strategy is going to be very simple. It's going to be, you don't know how it works. And good news, you don't need to. Here's how you can do it, and this is how it works. And these are what the different functions are. So our marketing thing, more like, for example, I, I, you know, I'm a serial entrepreneur and, and I have a lot of entrepreneurs in my circle and when we sit down and we talk and they say, well, they'll tell me. And this happens a lot like someone else. Okay, Peter, you know, this is all fine and dandy and it's just basically investing, right? I mean, what else can I do? How can this help me in my business? And I just literally had this conversation like three or four days ago with a friend of mine who has a reception hall, right, A banquet hall, and I said, okay, so let's, let's take a couple of numbers. And this is, I think, really good to mention in general for people who have no real understanding. So you look at the average restaurant in Montreal. The average restaurant in Montreal does approximately a hundred thousand dollars in business of a month gross revenue. They pay 2.5 to 3% on processing fees. Okay, That's a big chunk, especially when you consider that their maximum profit is 10% of their gross. Okay, so now we're looking at $10,000 and you're losing two and a half, two and a half to 3,000. Well, you're losing 25 to 30%. That's what that 2.5 to 3% actually comes out to. But what else does an entrepreneur have to do? They got to do their payroll. They got to, you know, send out their taxes, you know, remit their, their taxes every month to the government. They have to segregate this an amount for marketing because they don't know what their marketing budget is. You take the average business owner who's small to medium sized, who doesn't have like a marketing department or advertising department, and they have absolutely no, no idea about what their budget is. They, they hear someone, you know, some silver tongue slick person was going to walk in and say, hey, you know, give me a thousand dollars and I'll manage all your Instagram posts. And okay, I have that money. So here, take it. Right? Instead of it being a Calculated thought, which you can do on Blockchain. You could segregate, for example, a portion of all your sales, let's say 5% to go into a marketing wallet that at the end of the month has accumulated X amount of dollars or crypto. And you could say, this is my marketing budget because I've calculated it calmly in advance. I'm not falling for any upsell of some marketing. Right. There's a lot of different things that could be done. And when I tell them that, then they kind of look at me like, oh, really? Yeah. I mean, you could, you could manage your entire stock and every time you're making a purchase, when you couple this with AI, and that's where things get really interesting, is when you really start getting into AI and how it could work for you. With Blockchain man, you're talking about having a complete, complete command center at your fingertips, much more powerful than anything to do with the Internet. So that's what people.
- [42:21]
Jeff
Let's use a real world example of, you know, how they could potentially take Gibby Steakhouse for instance, in Montreal. You know, great steakhouse, you know, one of the older places over there, you know, beautiful. It's really amazing. But if you were to approach them and say, hey, from a business perspective, here's why you'd want to incorporate it, here's how it's going to help you from a real world. How would that impact, you know, their, their steakhouse?
- [42:52]
Panos Macross
Okay, so, so this is what we've been talking about with panels. Like we've been, you know, for our killer app, right? I mean, this is this. We've, we've pretty much laid all this out in the conceptual phase and we're trying to see, you know, which way we're going to develop this. But ultimately I would sit them down and I would, I would just show them straight out. I would say, you know, all those fees that you pay for processing. Well, imagine you didn't have to pay those fees anymore. Imagine you paid a small amount on a monthly subscription that, you know, that you could budget for and say it's X amount of dollars a month for all my processing, number one. Number two, imagine not having any POS terminals that you have to have a contract with and rent out or, or if they break down, bring in a technician or whatnot. Instead you could use just an old smartphone or a tablet or whatnot and you just download an app and you never have to worry about this. And even if that messes up on you, you have a backup tablet under the Counter, pull it out, already downloaded, you're good to go with no downtime. That's another thing. Number three, it would be how to manage all your payroll and accounting integrated with a QuickBooks type system directly onto the blockchain. Number four, you don't have to wait for settlements of batches. I mean, we all, everybody who's dealt with settlements of batch batches, who's been in a little bit of a tight situation, who has a money flow type of issue where Friday happens to be Good Friday, or, you know, it's Easter Monday or some holiday or some maintenance thing, and now you have to wait until Tuesday to get your deposit. Meanwhile, you're strangling. You're like, oh, my God, I need to come up with somebody. And you're calling people and you're saying, I'm gonna get you the money. I just need 15,000 because I'm waiting for this. Okay, listen, I mean, all that would be eliminated, right? So this is my, my personal direct approach would be the same as it's been in sales. And I've, I've consulted for sales and I've trained salespeople. The best sales approach is bring the best product and let the product sell itself. Just explain it simply. And that's exactly what I would do. I'd sit down and say, here's what you have now. Here are all the benefits that you have here. And at the end of the day, you know people when they're tapping and paying you, what they're actually doing is they're purchasing a stable coin. They're purchasing a stable coin that's being directly deposited in your wallet that you could decide at the end of the day, okay, you know What? I made 15,000 today. I'm going to go ahead and leave half of it in stable coin because I don't know what I'm going to use it for. The other half, I'm going to sell it on the exchange and e transfer, because we have e transfer here that could be directly sent to your account and go ahead, move forward. You're in total control. You're in total control. You could set up a, a loan, for example, with an employee. And I've worked in restaurants, and I know this happens a lot where an employee is going to be a little stuck for cash and they're going to ask their, their boss for a little payday loan in advance. You can make a smart contract. You can make it where it takes off 1% off your pay every, every week. You know, you could, you could come up With a lot of different solutions on a lot of different levels. That's how I would sell it to Gibby's, for example. And I'm pretty sure they would go for it.
- [45:46]
Jeff
Yeah, I like it.
- [45:49]
Chip
Well, it's also too what it comes down to. Jeff and I talk about there's a lot of startups that are making up a problem that doesn't exist and they're trying to solve for a problem. So we're like, well, wait a minute, why don't you have like what are you actually solving for where you guys are solving a real problem, Especially about onboarding users. I mean that's really that whole analogy you talked about. It's like when you talk about the product, the product is secondary. The value is in the accomplishing the goal. Hey, your problem is you're wasting money. You're blowing it out the window and your eyes are focused over here because you think this is the problem and you're highlighting the problem. The problem is, is no, you don't have control. Your finances, they're all over the place. You're. You haven't thought about this because that's just the way it is. Well, with, with what you guys are building too, a lot of that's changing. I think it's changing for people too. When you think about the decks. I use the decks a couple years ago, man, it was difficult to use. It was the first time experience. But I didn't even see panels calling people out like we. The first decentralized exchange.
- [46:46]
Panos Macross
Yes.
- [46:47]
Chip
Was built on the xrpl. And they're like, huh? They obviously don't even know what that means. They're like, what are you talking Like I've seen him call the people out and he's like, yeah, you don't even know what the. You don't even understand what the value of that is. And how do you think you can go from fiat to, you know, any digital asset, you can take anything in, anything out the back full, you know, in four to six seconds. This is the part that sometimes gets lost on people because of the legacy approach. They have to thinking about it. Right. They go back to, well, it's always been 3%. If it's MX, it's 5%. You know, that's how you get all those points. I love the points. I love amex, but. But that's how you get it. And so solving the points, I'm wondering, panels, could we put together. Is there anything we could demo today? Show. Show people?
- [47:27]
Peter Kondalis
For sure. Yeah, I can show like a part of V2. I mean the swap functionality is ready partly what you see on the, on xaman on the X app, you know, the swap, you see, it's part of like it's the V2 UI and you know, I can show maybe, you know, some, some more things here.
- [47:44]
Jeff
Awesome. As, as you're pulling that up, just a quick question from John Saxon.
- [47:50]
Chip
John Saxon, the actor. I knew that wouldn't take long, Jeff.
- [47:53]
Jeff
That's right. It was just a couple days. Any plans to work with Hedera as you go, like multi?
- [48:00]
Peter Kondalis
Well, you know, our primary focus is the XRPL ecosystem, you know, including mainnet, the VM sidechains, the how potentially, you know, so this basically covers all the things and functionalities and use cases we want to cover. But on Anodex, because we said Anodex will be the only, let's say crypto native product we will build. We are planning for cross chain swaps and cross chain, let's say compatibility. So yeah, there is a big possibility that, yeah, Hedera and many other chains will be supported because at the end of the day we want to connect the XRPL with all the other chains which will, you know, mostly be done by Axelar as well. But yeah, we want to combine different solutions where, you know, anyone can go from and to XRPL with, you know, very, very, in very easy way. So yeah, it's most probably coming at some point.
- [48:52]
Panos Macross
Yeah, I just want to add something there. So I think, I think ultimately our, our, our, our main vision is, is very simple. Our main vision is you log into your wallet and you do whatever it is you want. Right there. That's it.
- [49:09]
Chip
Beautiful.
- [49:09]
Panos Macross
You know, there's, there's really nothing else to it. We're trying to bring this to reality as much as possible where I think, I think I can very comfortably speak on Panels's behalf as well and say we'll partner up with anyone, we'll work with anyone who is, you know, legitimate and proven as long as they have the same goal of making everything, to use the, the easiest term, stupid proof. I mean this has to be where you could just go on. I want to be able to get into my wallet and do everything I want to do. I want to be able to stake, lend, borrow. I want to be able to make a smart contract. I want to be able to buy an nft, sell an NFT mint, an nft. I wanna, I wanna do everything in one spot. I don't want to have to jump around, do the hokey pokey everywhere. I just, I just want to do that there. I think that's where we're, we're. Our mentality is.
- [50:02]
Peter Kondalis
I just recall that you go to other chains and you see let's say you have the native usdc for example, you have used this usdce which is bridge usdc. There's Rob, there's like all confusing. You have many different types of tokens for just one asset. And people ask me many times is this the correct one? I mean what's the difference between USDC and USDC E? I mean it makes no sense to the user. I mean all these things need to go away. It can be done. I mean there are ways. We need several improvements as an industry and several, let's say advancements in the technology because some things are not there yet. Even xrpl for example, we can't even monetize our apps, our platform because there is no. For example, we are waiting for the bus transactions amendment which I think is big, not just for monetization but you know, many other use cases as well. There's a sponsored fees as well. For example. This is another big amendment that it's needed because from, from our point, from, from another's point and you know the app, the killer app we want to bring is that you know, the user shouldn't even know about fees, bridging trust lines, all this complicated stuff. So with sponsored fees and bus transactions amendment is too combined. Basically we, we hide all these things because you can, a user can create their wallet and we can fund it as a project with XRP directly. They don't even have to nobody, they don't have to buy XRP to activate the account. We just do it for them. They never realize it and they are ready to transact. And yeah, the trust lines for example, they want to swap a new token. Why? First other trust line, sign a transaction, then select the token again and you know, try to swap.
- [51:52]
Chip
Because these, this was the, this is what happened. So I've been working with developers, I'm in tech, so I work with developers for years and they're always like okay, you do this, you click that, you do. I'm like no, we're not doing any of that stuff. We have like so if you can hide all that stuff behind there. Yeah, that's what happens in the background. It's kind of like you go to a website, you don't think about what's happening, you know what its framework is. You don't care what the framework is, you just know. You click on a button and does something right it, so you don't have to understand what's going on there. And this is one of the things, this is a good question too because this is how most people would say like, you know, how do we connect with Anodos? Like what do we do? So right, you know, some of the first questions at the moment.
- [52:28]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, I mean you can connect like with any existing XRP wallet you have like as I said, Zaman Crossmark Gem. There is also Wallet Connect coming and metamask which now supports xrpl. So all the main wallets you'll be able to connect, connect directly and you're interacting with the XRP directly because there's also another misconception here where you know, people connect to Anodos, to Anodex and then they connect to, let's say XP Market, you know, Magnetic, any other platform and they say, and they realize they see exactly the same numbers. They see, you know, the pools, they are participating for example, in the MM in both and they are confused and they say, you know, is it the same? How does it work? But the thing is that, you know, the XRPL has all its features built in into the layer one protocol and there's only one Dex. So all the platforms you see, they are basically gateways and user interfaces, front ends of the underlying decks. So yeah, there is unified liquidity. So wherever you connect it's the same. So it's up to user preference in terms of UI ux, the features the project offers. So yeah, just connect until, you know, the, as I said, the passkeys and the more advancements we're working on cam which make everything much, much simpler. But for now you just connect your wallet and you are ready to swap, as I said, you know, provide liquidity and do all this kind of stuff.
- [53:49]
Jeff
Yeah, it's really easy. It took me two seconds. While you're talking, I just click join scan with the Zaman wallet. Just like we're transferring NFTs, you know, which we do on every show. Scan it. What I like about it is that as soon as I scanned it through the Zamen wallet, open it up, said, you know, establish the trust line and then it opens up the browser on my phone as well. So I'm logged in to Anodos on my phone, so or on my, or on my computer, so now I have it in both locations. It's a nice touch because typically that doesn't happen.
- [54:23]
Chip
Right.
- [54:23]
Jeff
You just accept with the Zaman and. And you're back to your Zaman wallet here Now I have it on, on two areas. I'm like, hey, that's awesome. Now I can just go right here, go to liquidity. I, you know, you have the pools here. You can go to the swaps portfolio. I mean this is really. It simplified to a point where if you can show someone, you know, now at this point in time here, here's how you're going to set up your Zaman wallet. Now here's how you're going to interact with Anodos. Easy. You know and it's that it took two seconds, you know, literally two seconds to get logged in.
- [54:58]
Panos Macross
So which is what it should be. It should be across the board. Jeff Live, right? It should be. This is, this is how simple everything should be in general on Blockchain. It's just that I feel that you know, if you've ever, if you've ever seen like a 4 year old when someone dumps like 20 different toys on the ground and says here, go and play. Well that's what's happening right, right now. Live in Blockchain and people getting in, oh NFTs, meme coins, this, that. They're all over the place.
- [55:23]
Chip
Distractions.
- [55:24]
Panos Macross
It's, it's too much. It's too much.
- [55:26]
Jeff
What's like AI?
- [55:27]
Panos Macross
Yeah.
- [55:29]
Jeff
Every single day it's happening so fast. That was. Chip had sent me something on, on, you know, I'm looking at, been looking at like AI web development. So Canva just rolled out something brand new and you can build a website in like two seconds. Yeah, and there's other platforms that do that but it's ha. Everything's happening too fast and if you're, if you're missing it and a lot of people are missing it. You know, I see people just now interacting with AI because it's everywhere, every direction you look. It's built into your browsers. It's, you know, it's on your, on your Android phone now. They've integrated Gemini into your phone. The iOS search is integrated with. What's that?
- [56:11]
Panos Macross
It's a digital slave. You tell it is whatever you want for you.
- [56:15]
Jeff
Well, it's insane but it's happening at a rate.
- [56:18]
Chip
I don't use Google, I never use Google.
- [56:20]
Peter Kondalis
No.
- [56:21]
Jeff
Yeah, it's. I don't think people realize exactly what's happening at this pace and it's disrupting industries on, on such a pace that a year from now, where we were a year ago with, with AI and so even so Blockchain has got to get that momentum. But from, with AI to defy now it's gonna be.
- [56:44]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, yeah, that you mentioned. AI is something that we also want to bring on to xrpl. So imagine like you go to our platform right now and you know, you have this AI chatbot and you never have to do a click anywhere. You just, you know, say to the child, but, you know, swap me 50xRP, let's say to USDC or other USD. So you hit Enter and all you have is to sign a transaction and that's it. You never have to do anything else.
- [57:08]
Chip
Boom.
- [57:10]
Peter Kondalis
Numbers. Click, like select the token. You just say you have to type it.
- [57:14]
Jeff
You know, say it right.
- [57:16]
Panos Macross
You could even, you'll probably be able to, to even implement scalping strategies, you know, if you have your own indicators you want to use. I mean.
- [57:23]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, yeah. Or even like for providing liquidity. Yeah, like all this, like, you can say, like create me. Let's say hedging strategy where I provide liquidity to, let's say xrplesd at the time. Let's say XRP is falling. So you can like get more xrp.
- [57:37]
Panos Macross
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so many crazy ideas could be adopted. I mean, you could. There's. There's so many things that are going to be possible. The only thing I'm going to say that I want to add for AI, since I kind of brought it up.
- [57:48]
Chip
Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
- [57:49]
Panos Macross
Yeah. I'm just going to say that I think everyone should be still very cautious with AI and in the sense that people are using AI like it's the Oracle of Delphi and that it's giving it 100 correct answers. I've found. I've used chat GPT, for example. There's a lot of mistakes. It does. I've called it out on mistakes, on accuracy, and then it would respond, you know. Yes, you actually, you're right. It's like, okay, well, imagine I was using this and, and this was going to be the solid argument point I'm using for whatever else. Well, you still have to learn, guys. You know, we're not at the point where AI is. Is Skynet. It's not Skynet yet.
- [58:23]
Jeff
You know, to your point, what, you know what AI is doing? It's scouring the Internet, collecting data. I was looking up data and compiling a comparative analysis of different products. And I know what the answer is because I have an FDA report on one of the products. And so we did the analysis and I look at it and then you have to dig in. Well, where'd you get the information? Yeah, right. Oh, I, I Pulled it off their website. Okay, well, their website's lying, you know, because the company is making up stuff that isn't relevant to. If you look at the FDA filing, the FDA filing that they themselves submitted is contrary to what's on their website, what they promote. So now AI isn't looking to the fda, which really, it should go a step further, you know, but it missed that part of it and went straight to their web. And then you, then you have to put, then you know, as you dig through it, say, oh, this is what they're promoting. Okay, so you really do have to know what you're talking about.
- [59:23]
Chip
Yeah.
- [59:24]
Jeff
You know, even from a coding perspective or HTML perspective, it makes mistakes on, on a regular basis and you know, spelling, content, data, you have to find it.
- [59:36]
Peter Kondalis
I post about it a few days ago that whoever is relying to AI for fact checking, you know, it's, it's, he's not gonna make it because you know, you see, you know both from let's say bitcoin max standpoint and you know, the, the, you know, people in XRP community who like lower they say riddles and theories and believe that XRP will go like to 10k overnight. And you see, I mean I see like in all these comments that you know, I, I or others tell them something and they just ask rock and they just put you out the answer, which is wrong obviously with both in both cases. Like in one side we have the bitcoin markets against XRP and then we have like the XRP markets or riddlers who believe overhyped nonsense and things that you know, will not, are not going to happen or not don't make sense. And they, you know, the AI just both approves their, you know, they validates, let's say their false assumptions. So you can't really rely on AI unless you really know the facts and have done your research and understands the fundamentals.
- [60:41]
Chip
I asked for citations too. Like sometimes I'll take a 10k report, I'll update it and I'll say, tell me the, tell me what this company's thinking about. Tell me the risks. Everything else, give me citations. And then when I do my sales calls, I'll have it go through the sales calls and say, tell me the exact timestamp. I'm going to go back and check your work because I will find errors here and there. You know, I mean most of the time I was on the call and I remember most of it, but you know, there's this stuff where you got to check it and you can get chat, GBT to lie. You can force it to lie and tell you stupid things. And this is where the garbage in, garbage out always applies. It, it applies in every scenario. And this is why most people can't use it, because they don't know how to prompt.
- [61:17]
Panos Macross
That's.
- [61:18]
Chip
I mean, if you don't know how to prompt, you say, write me a prompt that tells me how to do this, and then check the prompt, edit it, and then you get a better shot. But people go, AI doesn't work. You know, I asked it to write me of this and it's like, well, you gave it nothing and it created garbage.
- [61:31]
Panos Macross
Yeah, so that's a very good point. It's what you give AI. So it's not, it's not artificial brilliance.
- [61:38]
Chip
Correct.
- [61:38]
Panos Macross
Artificial intelligence. And intelligence is something that is compounding, rolling and growing. That's. I, I consider right now all the AI out there to be like, like the equivalent of a toddler. So it'll know, you know, some things, what to do, some things not to do, but it's gonna blunder a lot of stuff. So if your question isn't this long, if it isn't this long in detail, don't expect anything of value. I personally use all AI on the same level. I use it as giving me an idea of how to reword something that I'm thinking of that I'm just not getting it out there. You know, sometimes you have an idea and you're like, like, I want this, this, this, this, this. And then it says, well, here's a cleaned up version. And then I'm like, okay, yes, that's much better. I reread it and then it triggers my brain to come up with the answer that I want.
- [62:25]
Jeff
Right.
- [62:26]
Panos Macross
It's a tool. It's a. It's a segue is how I would put it. It's a segue for use. It's not a solution for everything.
- [62:33]
Chip
Iteration, too. It's all about iteration. You're not going to get on the first shot. You're going to enter your stuff. So it's a combination. Costa says this started using antidotes. Zaman so far an easy, user friendly platform for newbies like me. Thanks, Peter. Your best selling point is your unique sincerity and care for upgrading people's knowledge. And I think that's really important. That's why, that's why, that's why having these, these conversations, you know, and appearing on podcasts, I mean, I. Most of that stuff. I listen to his podcast people talking all the time. My wife's like, what are you listening to? I'm like, well, there's this awesome guest. And what podcast is that? I'm like, well, it's a guy that used to do this, but now, you know, it's amazing. She's like, well, why do you listen? Because you'll learn a lot of things or you get exposed to a lot of things on podcasts. And I wanted to see if we could panelist if you could share your screen and just kind of like walk through something for us.
- [63:18]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, I have shared it already. I've shared the screen.
- [63:20]
Jeff
We got to bring it up.
- [63:23]
Peter Kondalis
Okay, so here is V2. I mean, the swap functionality is ready. So right now I'm using. Basically this is on Vercel. It's not deployed yet. I mean, we have the. If you go to Dex Anodos Finance, we have this ui, but we are transferring the upgrades we did on xaman on the X app. We did many improvements over there on the user experience and added some extra features. So we are now deploying it over, you know, this upcoming week. They will be live on the Dex Analyst Finance as well. But I can show you here what it's already deployed on the test version. So let's see. See, let's connect to the wallet. So let's choose xaman. Let me connect with xaman.
- [64:19]
Chip
Connecting the wallet as we speak. For those that are listening, there's not a lull in the podcast because, you know, the first time when you hear more than three seconds of nothing, you know, like, you start grabbing stuff, talking to your phone, hitting, if I'm in my car listening, I'm like pressing buttons. I think something dropped out. So, yeah, that's why Jeff and I are continuously, you know, following the Go ahead Panace. I'll give back to you.
- [64:40]
Peter Kondalis
So, yeah, I'm connected with my wallet. You can see here your balance. You can also click here. You can see balance holding pools as well. So, you know, that's not ready yet. We're, we are now working on the liquidity and, you know, providing liquidity feature. So you can see here all your wallets, your. Your tokens. And here we have, you know, this is the, that's what's coming on the live version next week that is already available as well on the xamanex app. You can already see, like some of the, you know, you can search here for all the tokens that exist. Like, there are thousands of tokens on xrpl, but we also have a stablecoin list. So we have all. Let's Say the top valuable stable coins on xrpl. Of course, like I'll use this first. Then we have GitHub, Bitstamp and there's also like Ripple folks which has been like a long standing issue on xrpl. They have like Chinese yen. You know there, there are several others but you know, most of them don't have like much liquidity or users. That's why, you know, I have been, you know, fun fact, I even had like a call with a meeting with Ripple a few days ago this here in Paris in the, in the event and yeah, we were discussing about how we can, let's say bring more activity to the decks to stable coins. And you know, I just said one thing directly that you know, we need to bring more quality assets and more let's say stable issuers. If it's, if that's not what Ripple is interested in. I mean, you know Ripple has a USD stablecoin now but we need more, we need euro, we need yen in gpp. Like all the top fiat currencies need to be brought to XRPL immediately because not only that will increase activity and credibility but you know, you, you see a horde of new use cases, you know I have been talking for so long about on chain effects. So imagine bringing the Forex market into XRPL which is like a trillion dollar market. It's one of the biggest use cases which can work for not just, you know, when, when you mention Forex, you know, people think of trading like Forex traders that trade currencies. I mean that's the last thing we should think about. It's about how we can enable a 24,7 currency market where businesses could tap into that liquidity for payments. You, you could like create let's say stable pools with many different currencies. So for the first time the, let's say the retailer small player can also benefit and provide liquidity which basically reduces the impairment and loss. Because if you provide into a two stable pool, let's say USD and euro stablecoin pool, then basically your impairment loss is near zero. You don't have any volatility in these stable coins. And you can get a lot of, let's say revenue and opportunities from this kind of thing. And it enables like many business use cases that can really increase the activity on xrpl. And then the next thing that we talked about was real world assets like tokenized Treasuries, how we can bring more of these big players. I mean yeah, we have like Ondo and Openeden, but you Know we are still yet to see let's say a public available token on the dex. This is the number one thing because openeden is live but it's only for institutional players. I mean you just have to go to the website, be an institutional player and just you know, deposit an amount and get their tokenized treasury. But that doesn't work. I mean we need, we need this to be available for all publicly on the decks so anyone can provide liquidity, anyone can hold these assets and anyone can earn like yield. You can earn like 4% yield that the U. S Treasury bills are at this point which also enables like businesses that you know, you know the, the killer app we are talking about. This is like also how we can enable businesses to earn yield on chain without holding their assets on their bank which earns basically nothing, everything on chain and securely. You don't even have to hold XRP or volatile cryptocurrencies, you just put it on stable coins and tokenize real world assets which provide real value and stability. So yeah, this is what we talked about and this is what I also believe will bring a lot of activity and what we need.
- [69:08]
Chip
When you had the conversation with Ripple, I mean I think they probably recognize that they're you know, with liquidity and also with the fiat currencies. Is that something they were receptive to? I have a feeling they're probably already thinking about this.
- [69:19]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, I mean, yeah also like said that to David Svarts about you know Ripple are adding liquidity to the amm. I mean obviously they have the resources and the money to do that, even like a few millions which is nothing to Ripple, I mean could make a huge difference to the whole let's say ecosystem. But I think the problem here is at least from what David said, let's say tax implications and how regulatory implications as well on how, let's say Ripple can provide liquidity to a public market and how that can be, let's say I think that's the complication at this moment, maybe now with rlusd but still I mean providing single sided is not like a good thing, providing just rlusd. But yeah, if they provide like XRP and rlusd at least only this pool they provide like tons of liquidity, they can increase, they can benefit a lot. So yeah, I think, I think they are waiting for more regulatory clarity on.
- [70:22]
Chip
How that makes sense.
- [70:24]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah MMS on how all these are treated. So yeah, I think we have to wait for now.
- [70:29]
Chip
They don't want to go down that road again. Right. And I Could see like, you know, when we saw XRP drop, you know, this whole thing with the terrorists, we saw the market go. This is a great, great opportunity to use a swap where you swap it into a stable coin. You preserve sort of the value there. Right. Because that's stable. And then as it drops back you can go buy in. You could that and I think, you know, and then using the decks to do that is a really phenomenal sort of advantage.
- [70:55]
Jeff
Here's another, here's another one. As you're developing. Can we keep NFTs on the platform?
- [71:00]
Chip
Why did you put that up there?
- [71:02]
Peter Kondalis
Well, in the. Yeah, that's what we're working on. Basically I can show. Oh wait, actually I will show it in a bit how the portfolio UI works and looks like. But yeah, I mean we are adding NFTs as well. So when you go to the portfolio dashboard, you'll be able to see all your tokens, all your pools and all your NFTs that you have in your wallet in your account.
- [71:24]
Chip
Your wallet.
- [71:24]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, right, yeah, that's definitely coming.
- [71:26]
Jeff
Yeah. And you'll be able to easily. I think that's the challenge. You try to find the NFTs, you gotta, you know, if they're on the XRP Cafe, you're connected there, it's easy to see it, but then you have to go to your wallet. You can't. Having a simplified platform. Yeah, you know the go to that you guys are putting together, I think.
- [71:45]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah. On something. On an aggregated solution where you can like simply like sell this NFT and see, let's say the, let's say the higher price, you know, on whatever, you know, either it's our XRP Cafe bids, you know, plains, whatever, NFT marketplace. I think maybe we can work on something like that. Although, you know, it's. We need, let's say to partner with all the sanity marketplaces and basically aggregate all their data. Which might be a little difficult, but yeah, we will look into it.
- [72:16]
Chip
Ray, Ron has a question. I don't want to put it up because it hides. Peter. I don't like that. So when we earn yield, is it locked up for a period of time?
- [72:25]
Peter Kondalis
No, no, I mean when you, if you mean the ammo. No, I mean you can unlock anytime. There are no like limitations or restrictions. You just deposit and you can instantly withdraw your liquidity anytime. And your yield, I mean, if you mean the, the profit you have earned, it's automatically added to your position, to your LP position.
- [72:47]
Chip
So that's exchange mentality. Right. Lock it up for three months, lock it up for six months, knock it up for a year. Right. So there's another.
- [72:55]
Peter Kondalis
So yeah, no, no, no, no look ups, no restrictions. And yeah, your profit is integrated directly in real time. So when someone does a swap. So now if I do a swap here from XRP to early USD a portion of this XRP and basically here you can see the fee here. So 0.003 XRP from this 5 will go directly, directly to the liquidity providers and be split depending on the, you know, percentage you own in the pool. So that happens in real time. When I click and you know, assign the swap swap, then the fee goes directly to them. So you can basically withdraw any amount. If you go to. Basically I can show you here the lucidity but on V1, on swap finance you can already see and select withdraw either a percentage or a specific amount you want from the pool. So you are totally in control and you can do like whatever you want, whenever you want.
- [73:53]
Chip
And where does that XRP reside?
- [73:56]
Peter Kondalis
You meant, you mean where.
- [73:58]
Chip
Yeah, well when you're doing like when you're earning yield.
- [74:02]
Peter Kondalis
So the fee, it just gets directed to your, for example in, in your pool. Basically the XRPL is what hold, what holds your liquidity. The, the AMM since it's native to, to xrpl so it's locked by xrpl and when we, you withdraw, you unlock. So basically you have the LP tokens which work as a proof as a shareholder that you have provided liquidity. And basically you exchange these LP tokens, you burn them to withdraw the two underlying tokens. So they are basically locked into XRPL itself.
- [74:31]
Panos Macross
So something to just add here for the, the new user who's just looking to jump onto any opportunity and be a, you know, liquidity provider or whatnot. I just want to say you have to understand first and foremost what order books are. You have to understand, you know, when you're putting in a buy order or a sell order, how that works, why the MM is an advantage. You have to understand a little process that you're not investing in getting. Like for example, if you're bullish on xrp, you're not going to go into a liquidity pool and just say, okay, I'm going to get all this xrp. This, this isn't investing in xrp, you're investing in the pool itself. The pool itself is generating fees that you're taking a percentage of based on your representation of that, that, that investment. And this is what people need to understand because it Gets very exciting and very confusing at the very same time. And they go in saying, okay, I'm gonna put in all this money. And then, you know, when in permanent loss happens, they, they want to pull out their hair. It's, it's. You have to understand, just like anything else, what you're actually getting involved in. And it's not hard to understand. It's just, it's, it's, it's perhaps difficult to put it in an organized way to understand. Like there's steps. So the first step is understand what order books are first. Read up on that. Learn that first. Then go to what is an AMM and why is it solved? What problems does it solve? Then you'll have a better understanding if it's something you want to do. And I'm a big advocate in general for understanding what you're doing. You don't jump into anything on hype. You don't jump into anything because some of your friends or family might be making money at it. But, but they're just not very good at explaining it to you. You know, I, I personally feel I have, you know, if I could say it without sounding cocky, I have a very good way of explaining things because I try and keep it very simple. I use analogies, I use examples, and I simplify it to the absolute maximum. Not everybody does that. So you need to be able to do, you know, do your own research. Like the entire slogan is of the entire blockchain is do your own research. You here too, guys. You have to do your own research.
- [76:40]
Chip
But David Schwartz brought up one time, what if you're not good at research? I remember him. He posted about the. He goes, you know, I mean, he goes, what if, like, research isn't yours?
- [76:48]
Jeff
That's when you turn to X.
- [76:51]
Chip
You're a bad researcher. You get garbage in, garbage out. You're like, bad stuff, bad stuff comes back. I don't know. That was one of his. He puts a lot of funny things out there. But I thought that was one of his best. He's like, what if you're not good at research?
- [77:01]
Panos Macross
Yeah. Wrong space. Then, buddy, in the wrong space.
- [77:05]
Jeff
You have to understand your risk tolerance. You know, to your point, you can go and trade options. You can, you know, trade future. You can do all sorts of things. Yes, but if you have no idea what you're doing, you're probably going to lose, you know, I mean, that's a gamble. And it's the same thing in this space. If you don't get it, stay. You know, either Learn it or stay away, you know, and don't, you know, unless you have a big risk tolerance, you know, like, hey, I'm taken in my risk, you know, Very good.
- [77:31]
Panos Macross
What about.
- [77:32]
Chip
What if someone comes to you and they say, like, hey, I got this guy and he knows somebody and it's a special club. And if everyone that gets it, like this is like the story that it gets changed, but it's the same story and people that have been around the space for a long time. I just saw a couple people reached out to me that got liquidated. Something happened to them. They. They said, like, they took the money out of my zombie wallet. What did you do exactly? Well, I took my Zama. And then what happened? Well, I gave them the, the. The sea freight. I'm like, no.
- [77:57]
Panos Macross
Why?
- [77:57]
Chip
I mean, I try to tell people the much as possible, you know, this whole thing with, you know, that's the thing we say, like, well, don't keep it on exchanges. And then people make mistakes. They type numbers in. They don't use the QR codes. Like the little things that get them in trouble, right? Little tiny things that. I saw somebody who's been in the space for a long time, close to 10 years, moved a whole batch over there, had a. Something was missing, gone forever. And I was like, you didn't even send a test, like a. To test 100 or something like that to make sure that. Copied and paste that back in there. So you knew one at a time.
- [78:36]
Jeff
Everybody, look how many brilliant people have their hard drives locked up or.
- [78:40]
Chip
Stefan Thomas, right?
- [78:43]
Peter Kondalis
There are certain rules. I mean, yeah, the crypto space is complicated, but again, you know, there are certain rules. Like, you know, you. You just never type or give your private keys to anyone. No, no, you know, never type it online, never save it, store it online, or any device that has access to the Internet. I mean, there are certain rules, but I think, you know, most people say, you know, this will never happen to me. You know, I'm just. They're just. Let's say they see taking, you know, extreme security measures as a burden.
- [79:09]
Panos Macross
Why?
- [79:09]
Peter Kondalis
You know, it's just to save yourself. There are certain rules and steps you need to, to take.
- [79:15]
Jeff
So that's what it is right there.
- [79:16]
Chip
Everyone's doing it.
- [79:17]
Jeff
It's over. Saying it's a sign people are trying to get rich overnight. And I think that's, that's what people anticipate. That's a. One of the problems that I've seen with, with the hype and, you know, the FOMO and The FUD and the fanboys out there that are strictly in it for the pro. You know, you can invest in stocks strictly for the profit, right over time. But when you buy a stock, understand the fundamentals of the stocks that you're buying before you buy them. Otherwise you're just taking a risk. You know, look at the upside, the downside, you know, make, make good decisions. But I think the tendency within the crypto space, especially within the fanboy community, is that they're looking for fast, you know, wealth and fast moves. And you know, if you want to day trade, go day trade in a non volatile space, day trade in the stock market, it's volatile enough. You come into the crypto space and you try to day trade, you try to guess the tops and the bottoms. It's so volatile you can't even put a trailing stop on a, on a crypto because it could drop out overnight. You won't even know it. It'll blow past your, your trailing stop and you're out and then it comes back and you're gonna. So trying to, at this day and time, you know, trying to apply traditional financial product and ideas to crypto is extremely risky. But yet that's what it is. People are chasing the fast buck there. You got to think long term and we got to think development. Development is where it's at, bringing it to the mainstream. And we're starting to see what you guys are doing from a development perspective, pulling all the pieces together. Flair got a lot of flack in the, in the early days. You know, I think they might have made a few missteps on how they approach the community because the community is extreme, extremely fickle. But it's, it's all about focus on your product, focus on your development. Same thing that we saw with Ripple. They tried to step into the community a little bit and it backfired. They're 100% focused on ripple, the development of Ripple, the direction of Ripple. And you know, and they're going to go way past where the XRP community is from a fast I got to get rich overnight. Everything is shifting and changing, getting more serious. There's accountability, you know, we're moving beyond, you know, that, hey, let's just throw money in it and you make money and you know, and all the obscurities within, within crypto. I had a point, I had a question. Now I'm trying to remember why, you know, trying to bring it back to my question here. But, but here's, here's, I guess what, what do you Guys, see, you know, where. Where do you see it going, where we're at right now with Antidos, and if you were to broadcast this out, you know, over the next 12 months, based on how fast things are. Are developing, where. Where are you guys going to be in, in 12 months? And where do you see the space kind of all applying in that over the next year?
- [82:15]
Peter Kondalis
Peter, you want to start?
- [82:16]
Panos Macross
That's a good question. No, I'm gonna let you take it, but I just. Before I do, I just want to add one little point to everything that you're saying. Just stuff. So I think it's important to understand that there are predatory practices in every space. And we have, we all have cell phones, and I'm sure we all still get telemarketing phone calls. You're not going to eliminate all predatory acts. What you are going to do is you're going to just better prepare yourself and you need to be able to be vigilant and you need to understand what it is you're doing if you're new in the space. I just again, want to say for the people that are new, because I have a feeling based on the flow of this podcast and great job, by the way, to both of you, because not only is it like, well set up, but it's a good flow. Like, I've been on a lot of different podcasts in my life and it's never been this good of a flow. So good on you. And I'm assuming that there's quite a few new people also, right. That are coming in. And for the new people, I would say your. Your first. Your first order should be to understand what kind of skin in the game you want to get. So, for example, if you start off with a couple hundred dollars, go into a project that you like, and this is when once you have skin in the game, you start really learning really fast because that's. It's your money, it's there. So you use a little bit of it, right? Something that you consider little because little is, you know, it's a perspective. A millionaire. For a millionaire, a little could be 10,000. For somebody making a hundred thousand, little could be a thousand. You know, whatever it is to you, whatever little is to you, and play with it and learn and actually use the tech, and then you'll start understanding a lot more, a lot quicker.
- [83:48]
Chip
Quicker.
- [83:48]
Panos Macross
So I just wanted to add all that to Jeff's points and panels. I'll let you take the first time you take analysis. I'll take this in general.
- [83:55]
Peter Kondalis
I mean, I just want to continue a bit with that point. And I think what makes me sound that what's a big barrier to mass adoption is that when we are talking about crypto and you know, blockchain, whatever it is, the first thing that we think about is investing or trading or like putting money into it. I think this is very sad because, you know, we are at a point where, you know, think of the Internet when it came out. Imagine now talking about the Internet and the first thing is not about using the technology itself, how you can benefit from the Internet of the thousands of use cases and things you can do, but going to how you can invest in Internet stocks. I think it's really sad. And that's where we are now as an industry like to, to think about investing and putting money into tokens. While there are so many great use cases and apps that do not even require any investment, any, any tokens. And this is what we're also trying to solve. It's another reason why we will never do a token because you know, a token just adds extra complexity to the users. Not to mention that, you know, the, you know, you are launching a token, mostly it's done in, in a bad way. And we are seeing like 99.9% of tokens are either useless or like at some point they just up somewhere. So, and you all have this, let's say, complaints community. You have, you, you can have a great product, but if, let's say your token doesn't align with, let's say the price performance, you're still having these complaints from the holders and you'll be focusing on speculation and not your actual product, which I think is very bad. Yeah, and we just want to focus on building useful apps and products, not tokens, not speculation, not investing. Just you know, empower people to take control of their finances and utilize this technology in meaningful ways. So unless we remove that barrier completely where, you know, when we talk about crypto and blockchain, the first thing goes to how, for example, you can protect your data, how you can like send money in seconds, how you can make a smart contract, a real estate, let's say sale.
- [86:02]
Panos Macross
I mean you could track inventory, how you could do all kinds of different things, Right. And at the end of the day, sorry, panels. Just to add to that, it's another reason why we, we went fully on chain, right? I mean we, we tokenized our stock. When people telling us all the time, you know, why don't you have a token? I'm like, well, you know, a token is Great to enrich us. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do a token and make, you know, millions of dollars because everyone bought into this, this token. But what does the token do? What's the purpose of it? That's. Those are the questions you have to ask. What's, what's the purpose? Right. So we said we're going to tokenize our stock and if you like analyst, you could invest in analysis and everything we do, because you're a stick, you're a stock holder. You don't just have a token that may or may not be performing.
- [86:41]
Peter Kondalis
So I just want, yeah, most tokens do not align, do not align their holders with their success of the project or the product. It's just pure speculation. So in the end you're just speculating. You, you know, you see so many, let's say successful crypto ops, but their token price is. So it does nothing. So what's the point? I mean, especially when you have an entity, you know, another Slabs. You know, we are, you know, a private corporation like Ripple. We are based in us. We have our shareholders and now, you know, we have tokenized this private equity. So why create a token? We already have.
- [87:16]
Panos Macross
Exactly.
- [87:17]
Peter Kondalis
You can, you, you want to invest in another, just invest in the company, become an investor, buy our share and that's it. You know, there isn't any need for a token to overcomplicate, let's say the apps. Because if you create a token, you have to somehow create some utility around it. You have to use it in your apps, in your products, which again, if you want to hide all this complexity, you don't want to have a token and let's say, make your users buy your token to use it and access different services like most do. I mean, it's over complicating things.
- [87:53]
Jeff
How would somebody go about, they want to, they like what they hear, they want to find out more on being able to invest into antidotes from, from this point. Where would you find that do they need to be an accredited investor in the US how does, how does one go about doing this?
- [88:11]
Peter Kondalis
So here's this thing. I mean, yeah, I mean the first thing is that, you know, with the accredited investor rule, which I think it's, it's a shame that, you know, you can't allow, you know, generally most jurisdictional countries don't allow, let's say the smaller investors to invest in startups and you know, private companies that can have like big potential. I think this is a sad rule, but I think the Way we did it is where, you know, there are some exemptions. So we have filed for the SEC where there's this so called 506B rule where you basically accept up to 35 non accredited investors. And yeah, at this right moment, basically, yeah, we are, you know, raising capital and yeah, we're trying to talk with a few, not just vcs, but yeah, we would love to have smaller and let's say angel investors who understand the space because you know, unfortunately, you know, most VCs, you know, just don't care about what you're doing and they don't actually understand. And especially when you're talking about the XRPL ecosystem, I think most VCs want nothing to do with the XRPL. They don't want to touch it. And you know, we have had Many, many big VCs tell us that we love your product, we love what you're doing, but we don't see any potential on xrpl. If you move somewhere else, you know, that's fine. So this is another big problem that we see in the XRPL ecosystem. And you know, most XRPL projects can't really get big investors inside. Not because their products might not be good but because these investors are not aware of the ecosystem and you know what's happening, they don't see the potential. So yeah, I would say it's, it's generally hard, it's very hard as an XRPL business to, to raise money. But yeah, I mean if anyone is interested and wants to like invest in anodos, I mean there are of course some restrictions because you know we are, we have to be compliant with the ACC and everything. Just you know, dms and you know, we can figure something out. So yeah, just, just them in private messages and yeah, we can.
- [90:15]
Panos Macross
In general we're very available so people could just DM us, no problem anymore.
- [90:20]
Chip
Yeah, but you'll never DM people. No, so just keep that in mind. If someone shows up as Peter or panels, they're not gonna reach out to you for any reason. You're not going to get support through a DM that. Please, people do not do that. I've seen again this happened with people with Zombie and someone in a thread reached hey I'm support and it looked legit because it had the name in the guys gotta stop doing that.
- [90:45]
Peter Kondalis
There's only one rule. Anything that asks for your private keys or to send something to them to in order to like solve it, it's like there are no exceptions. It's A scam.
- [90:54]
Panos Macross
I mean, it's so funny for me to see this. Not in the sense, like, it's funny, like, what's happening. It's not funny what's happening happening, but it's funny to see the transition. Like, I would have people calling me a few years ago saying, hey, you know, Google called me. I'm like, hey, no, they didn't. It's absolutely. For sure they didn't. No, no, but Google really called. I'm like, no, they didn't. They didn't call you. You know, Amazon doesn't have a suspicious package for you. You know, all this stuff that's. That's going. It's the same. I don't understand how people don't see that. It's just the same lie, just translated into slightly different language, but it's the same lie. Like, I don't understand this.
- [91:29]
Chip
Well, there's a. There's a prince in Africa that needs. If I just loan him my XRP for just a few minutes, I'll get back double.
- [91:36]
Jeff
Yeah, but, but he's really nice, Chip.
- [91:38]
Chip
He's super nice.
- [91:39]
Jeff
Really cool prince.
- [91:40]
Chip
He has a good heart and donates a lot to charity. So it's. It's, you know, it. It touches me. You know, it gives, like, a little. But this is funny. I get email. If it's from my. If it's legit from my bank, I delete it. I don't care. Everything I need to do with my bag, I go to my bank. If it's from an exchange, it's from this, it's from. I don't care. I delete it all. Any text message I get, hey, how you doing? This and that. Coinbase Support. Delete Marcus Spam. Delete Marcus spam. Don't even read it. Don't open it. Nothing done. If you're legitimately in my. In my phone and if I delete somebody, like, they'll figure out another way to reach out to me. They'll call me, they'll do something. But I'm like, guys, just trust none of it. Not. This is how we get into trouble. You know, it's like, I mean, even there were fake things going on around Celsius, and I saw somebody bring that up. Yeah.
- [92:25]
Peter Kondalis
I'm like, yeah, how are you making this? I think Ray asked, how are you making fees?
- [92:31]
Jeff
Oh, yeah.
- [92:32]
Peter Kondalis
If that means that how we are, how we make money, we don't right now, basically, we chase zero fees on, you know, on our Anodex and, you know, on our apps. Not because you know, we, we don't want to but you know there is not an easy way to do that on XRP right now. You know, Zaman did it and you know you have to sign like two times which you know for me it's annoying. I mean we could do it as well but we don't want to do that in expense of the user experience. So we are waiting for the bus transactions and when that's live, I mean yeah, we'll be changing like a small fee on the swaps but you know, something reasonable. We're not going to change like 1% like First Ledger does, which I think for me it's like outrageous to charge that much for every swap up or trade. You know, nothing against them but you know, I, I think you know we're, we're at an industry where you know, defy improves things and you know, not let's say does the same thing like trade fine like centralized entities. So yeah, we really need to reduce fees overall and make, make everything more efficient. So yeah, we are going to charge some fees in the, in the near future but it will be like at a very reasonable level.
- [93:43]
Panos Macross
I think this is, I think this is something that goes towards Jeff's question of for the space and where we see everything going. I think, I think it's important to note here that you know, the financial world, the banking industry, for whoever's, you know, researched it, whoever's learned about fractional reserve systems, whoever's learned about, you know, the banking cartels as I like to call them over the years understands that this was not just years but generations of infrastructure built in, of systems built in. Like I mean really it took a long time of a lot of bureaucrats and a lot of elitists and a lot of you know, 1 percenters to create this entire financial system. And now, now for the first time we're given a way to actually like I'm getting goosebumps as I say it. We're at the point in time where we can all be. It doesn't matter what your background is. Look, I'm not a tech, tech guy personally. I'm not the one who's going to sit there and write code. I'll understand things but I mean I'm not going to do that. Right. I'm the one who, I'm more of the visionary in general is what I like to consider myself. So we have an opportunity for everyone on planet earth to be able to contribute to a system and shape it, shape it the way we want, the way we think is fair that I shouldn't be. I shouldn't be in charge of, you know, Chip's bank account because I'm the senior exec in ABC bank, and I could tell Chip, no, you know what? We're restricting you on your purchases because we think it's a. Restrict. No, it's. It's up to Chip to decide what he wants to do or if Jeff wants to make a purchase. You know, he's buying a new car or if Panels is going on a vacation. It's the first time he's using this card, and he wants to go on vacation. He's stuck there, and he can't buy it because it's blocking. Now he's on the phone trying to unblock, like, all these different systems. Sure. Some of them have, you know, merit. Right. Like ACH reversals. Like, a lot of people to this day don't know that even if you do a purchase with your debit card and. And you didn't get, you know, services weren't rendered, you can call your bank and say, I want to, you know, initiate an ACH reversal and get my money back. Because they're enabling the system to have the flaws of you being ripped off. So this goes up to six months. A lot of people don't know that this. I've done it myself. Right. They're like, well, you paid with your debit card, and I don't care. I said I don't. You know, I paid with my debit card. Do you have the systems to protect me? No. So this is how it works. Give me back my money. It's going to take six months. I don't care if it takes six years. Why should. Why should that scammer have it? Right. Get it back.
- [96:12]
Chip
Exactly. Exactly.
- [96:13]
Panos Macross
Well, that's what it is. At the end of the day, we. We could all contribute to this.
- [96:17]
Chip
Well, listen, I would say this. We asked you guys to come on for an hour, and you. Thank you for staying on with us a little bit longer, Because I thought the conversation needed to go a little bit longer. So, you guys, we didn't bring it up usually, like, hey, we want to be cognizant of time. But we had such a good flow, as you say, Peter, we were just rolling with it. So we like, hey, let's. Let's. Let's make sure we suss this out. Let's make sure we get all of this in there. And it doesn't seem like it. We've been live for almost an hour and 40 minutes here.
- [96:40]
Panos Macross
Wow.
- [96:40]
Chip
So thank you for, you know, thank you for coming on again. We'll probably have to do another catch up too, as you guys do some more releases. But really enjoyed the conversation. I thought it was really great. And you know, two sides of the coin there, you know, panels with bringing us the deep tech and the. And the. And the overall. And then Peter kind of like, you know, simplifying it and making it a little bit more easy to digest, which I like little simple things. I'm always like, I'll tell Chat. Gbt. Tell it. Tell us. To me like I'm a sixth grader. I'll take. Take a. A white paper and throw it in there. Give me some of the bullet points. And still I don't even trust it. But it's been a great conversation. Jeff, I'll throw it to you. And then let's get some last words from Peter and Panos here.
- [97:16]
Jeff
He's asking if you're going to be on the next show too.
- [97:18]
Chip
Yeah, it's gonna be what? It'll be on the next show. And the next show will be on all week. We have our guests for the week. They'll be in session. That's a good way to get the hoodie man.
- [97:26]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, we can. Yeah. Get on another one pretty soon. Maybe show some more things on the Anodex V2, you know, once. Yeah.
- [97:36]
Jeff
Like communities in here.
- [97:38]
Peter Kondalis
Let it be like more technical. Like show and how every piece of our platform works. Yeah, I think it would be great to do, let's say like a walk through. Through our. How the MM or Dex works, how people can use it. Yeah, I think that would be great.
- [97:51]
Chip
Yeah, perfect. We'll do that.
- [97:52]
Jeff
Yeah, we love that.
- [97:53]
Chip
Next show will be four hours, so make sure you get your bio break.
- [97:58]
Jeff
I'll make a bigger extra coffee. Exactly. I ran out of coffee like halfway through. I'm like, oh, my God, what am.
- [98:03]
Chip
I. I got the big old.
- [98:05]
Panos Macross
I've been nursing it. I just have a little.
- [98:07]
Chip
That's gotta be ice cold. You got it on a little warmer. Is that ice cold?
- [98:12]
Panos Macross
No, no, no, it's ice cold.
- [98:13]
Peter Kondalis
But I like cold coffee, so I like it.
- [98:14]
Chip
I do too. I just don't like it when I'm expected hot and get cold. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, if I know it's cold.
- [98:20]
Panos Macross
If it's cold, be cold. I got you.
- [98:22]
Jeff
All right, Peter, what kind of. What kind of coffee do you prefer? Espresso.
- [98:26]
Panos Macross
I actually prefer a coffee. I prefer cold coffees in general. When I went to Greece in 2016. They have a thing called Fredo espresso or Espresso Fredo, which is basically iced coffee. Iced espresso. And I love it. I like house brand, which is only available in Europe, from what I understand.
- [98:48]
Chip
By the way, that's the wrong answer. The right answer is badass Yeti's coffee, in case you're wondering. And is it any good?
- [98:54]
Panos Macross
Is there any here?
- [98:56]
Chip
No. It's effing great. We can assemble. This is. This is roast order. It's very rare that you've ever had fresh roasted beans. The ones you get in the store, six months old. So this brand that Jeff and I crafted, this one is. Is roasted to order. Sorry, I was just playing a little bit there, but I had to get that.
- [99:13]
Panos Macross
But seriously, like, is it available in Canada, or do I have to order from this?
- [99:16]
Chip
It is available in Canada. Yeah, it's available in Canada.
- [99:18]
Jeff
Yeah.
- [99:18]
Panos Macross
So I just wrote it down. I'm gonna try it because I'm a big espresso connoisseur, and I always like trying new espresso.
- [99:23]
Chip
I would get this one. Yeah. Get the dark roast, the obsidian bowl. This is the one right here.
- [99:27]
Panos Macross
Okay.
- [99:28]
Chip
It's a dark Italian roast.
- [99:29]
Panos Macross
Yeah.
- [99:30]
Chip
And that one's.
- [99:30]
Jeff
You need it right out of the bag.
- [99:32]
Chip
Yeah, man. The. The beans, that's. When I get a fresh bag. I just eat the beans. They're so good because they're not dried out. You get. The oils are still on there.
- [99:40]
Panos Macross
I'm sold.
- [99:40]
Jeff
It's over.
- [99:41]
Panos Macross
I'm gonna try it.
- [99:42]
Chip
It's good, as they say. Is it any good? No, it's effing great, man. Why? Because we said so? No, because Jeff and I were still tired. We're like coffee snobs, so we're like, no, man. We gotta have fresh roasted.
- [99:52]
Panos Macross
But, oh, listen, I'm the same way. I'm 100 the same way. But I'm the same way with wine. Right. So all these wine, brandy, scotch. But at the end of the day, I could still drink wine out of a box. I could do that. I could still drink instant coffee. I could still do that. If I really need.
- [100:07]
Chip
You have to.
- [100:08]
Panos Macross
I'll have it, you know, so right.
- [100:10]
Chip
Right there. That says it all right there.
- [100:11]
Jeff
With red wine. I love drinking red wine. Having espresso at the end of dinner, and you have the two together. It's kind of like Jameson and Guinness. They go together.
- [100:19]
Panos Macross
Yes. Try that with dark chocolate and have a cigar.
- [100:23]
Chip
I do have some circa.
- [100:24]
Jeff
There we go.
- [100:26]
Chip
Whiskey from. I do have a couple Canadian Whiskeys that I purchased up there. But Circa is a pretty good one, I thought. Circus decent. Yeah, it's a nice, nice one.
- [100:34]
Panos Macross
I like brandy more though. I'm more of a VSOP Saint Remy brandy I really like.
- [100:39]
Chip
It was, it was a. It was a whiskey but it had a little maple syrup in it. Just a nice little. A little nip and maple syrup.
- [100:46]
Panos Macross
I wouldn't be able to do that. I don't think so.
- [100:48]
Chip
It's not sweet though. It's just. It tastes a little maple. You have to do it, man. It's like a little smoky.
- [100:52]
Panos Macross
A little smoky maybe.
- [100:53]
Chip
Yeah, it's not so smoky. It's just got that little sort of maple kind of underlined, you know.
- [100:58]
Panos Macross
It's kind of like an aftertaste is like that.
- [101:00]
Chip
Well, it's more like an after dinner thing. It's not something you would just sip and drink. But if you're making it, it makes a nice old fashioned too. I will say that. So sometimes like a maple sort of an old fashioned. But I'll try it anyway. So the next show will schedule three hours. We've got almost, we're almost into the second hour here. We're rolling down the pike, but I'll give you guys the last word. Peter, anything you want to say in closing about Anodos or what people should be thinking about or big takeaways and then we'll go to Panos.
- [101:23]
Panos Macross
I just think that they should have. Have definitely their eye on Anna. Those we're going to be coming out with some exciting stuff and that we're always looking to simplify. So whoever's interested in learning, just follow us in general.
- [101:36]
Chip
Beautiful. And then by the way in the comments right down there so you can go follow Peter. I recommend following Peter and Panos and also Anodos on X and also the website's there too. If people were asking about the website, it's right down there in the comments. So Panos.
- [101:48]
Panos Macross
Awesome.
- [101:49]
Peter Kondalis
Yeah, we'll just add that. You know, I think we're maybe one of the very few projects that listen to the community's feedback to our users feedback. And unfortunately many developers, many projects do not care about the feedback they get. We're always open for feedback, bad or good. So we are here to improve and build for the community because in the end of the day is the users in the community that will use our products. So if we don't listen to them, then what's the point? And unfortunately many, many projects or you know, founders, whatever, they have this, their own idea and they this, let's say they want to build out of ego. They want to stick to their plan without caring about anything else. And I think that's very sad for the, for the ecosystem. So, yeah, we're always open for feedback. You can DM us, you can join our discord, you know, you know, ask us for new features. You know, is the whole reason why we are building V2 and we are revamping our whole new UI and UX is because we listen to that feedback and want to improve further the interaction with xrpl. So yeah, follow us. We have lots of exciting stuff coming. And one last thing I want to say about the XRPL as a whole is that, you know, for the first time we are seeing so many great developments. You know, not just on the mainnet but, but we have like multiple developments from let's say all the sister chains, you know, we have EVM sidechains, the how flare, you know, everything that is connected to xrpl. We have so many exciting things going on. So yeah, we just must work, work all together and let's bring that mass adoption.
- [103:26]
Chip
Perfect. Well guys, thank you for joining us. We're an hour 43 into this as we have a timer in the top window. But thank you so much for staying a little bit longer and we'll get you guys back on here in a little bit, but stay afterwards because I do have one bit of feedback from you. I'll take it offline, but I have feedback too. But it's, it's, it's not that it's nothing. You probably laugh at it, but anyway, that's all the time we have. So Jeff, Chip, Peter and panels. We are out of here, guys. We'll catch you tomorrow night. See you on the next one, guys. Stick around. That is the wrong one. Are you down with otc?
- [104:02]
Peter Kondalis
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