← Unemployable with Jeff Dudan
Unemployable with Jeff Dudan
From Scrappy Startup to Powering Brands Like Nike | Mark Michael's DevHub Story #171
01:09:16
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome everybody to the Homefront. This is Jeff Duden. If you are the embodiment of Seattle culture, including a tech startup with his high school buddy, a rock band called Married, an author of a short story, Traveler's Rush, and the host of a really bitchin Mustache, if your startup raised $2 million, ran on fumes for nine years, and ultimately, through acquisition, represented many leading brands like Nike and Chanel. And if now you are the owner and of a fast growing integrated Web platform called DevHub, your name can only be the bold, the beautiful Mark Michael.
- [00:42]
B
Honestly, I get so. I get so overwhelmed when I hear an intro for me, honestly, because again, it's like what you got to figure a life basically shortened into whatever that was like in it, you know, and it's like I went through every single emotion as you named each thing, you know, because it seems simple with like a, you know, one like, oh, yeah, you know, they raised it and they were running on fumes. It was more like 15 years. It was more like paying yourself basically 1500 dollars and lucky that you married somebody that made money. So you never skipped a beat, like. Anyway, yeah, thank you. Welcome. I'm excited.
- [01:17]
A
You need a minute? Are we good? I know it was a walk down.
- [01:23]
B
Let it.
- [01:24]
A
Well, I'll tell you, Mark, you know, we, We've met only a couple of times. Um, we're working together now on some pretty important projects for Homefront Brands. And after meeting you, I really wanted to have you on the podcast because you have a presence, you have a view, you're out, you're outside the box. Thinker and I, I think our audience can really benefit a lot from your journey. And then also too, man, web development, web platforms, the front door of our businesses, in digital fashion, man, it's like where there's so much action and so much interaction going on out there and it's changing really fast. So I think there's a lot to get today, but I'd love for you to start with a little bit, maybe personal background, interesting things, how you. Maybe how you grew up.
- [02:12]
B
So I won't shy away from the fact that, like, my dad was best man at my wedding. I hang out with basically my family probably the most. I've had the same business partner since I was 17 and I've probably made what I call about a million mistakes. The only way for me to have learned what I've learned, even if I'm being told like right now, is you, the listener, being told all this, is I always think the human experience was the Best way for me to learn and then also for me to have experienced it. Because even I tell this to my younger nephew all the time. You see me in the video, my arms are crossed right now. I would tell my investors when I was 22, 23, 24, 25, I'd be like, you don't know. You've never been where I'm going. You know, we're building the biggest. I mean, huge ego, huge cockiness, whatever you want to call it. I'm like, you don't know what we're doing. You've never done this before. And of course they all have, you know, but I'm like, I'm bigger than you know. And they would always just look at me, arms crossed, like I'm doing right now in this video. And they'd be like, okay, Mark, okay. No one ever yelled back at me. No one ever told me, you know, just listen for a second. I just. I didn't. And I. In some ways, I don't regret it in the sense that the only way for me to have learned was to kind of experience it in that way of, like, making all those mistakes. I'm now 42 years old, married, no kids. I travel between Seattle, Arizona and New York City. It's just what happened. We wanted kids. It just didn't work out that way. Not going to let that stop me from anything else. You know, be a great uncle, obviously. And so, you know, the journey of DevHub.com in particular was, you know, we basically had a design agency doing websites on WordPress for years. And then what happened was every bit of money we would make doing the agency work, we'd always want to build a startup. And so every time we made money, we'd put into, like, what we call R and D and we would build stuff. And we built and sold two of those things, that kind of beta stage. And then we built a really cool way to build websites. At that time, we raised, like I said, right around 2 million bucks. We burned it all in six months. We thought we were going to be rich. I'll say. Raising money.
- [04:41]
A
What did foosball tables call cost back then?
- [04:45]
B
Yeah, we did all that. We expanded the office. Like, everyone. I mean, it was like all the dumb things. You don't know what you're doing at 24. We. I called my brother. I'm like, yo, move to Seattle. Game over. We're rich. I mean, there's no credit checks with raising money. There's no. It's all of a sudden, you meet somebody who believes in you and they wire you the money. It's a simple couple sheets of paper, they sign it, wires the money and you're off the races, you know, and it was just like almost unbelievable when you get that money, Even though nowadays 2 million doesn't seem like a lot, it was a lot when you had nothing. And then you think you have a business because you have money in the bank. And what you quickly realize is every dollar that goes out is not coming back. And then in six months, after all the pizza parties, after hiring 35 people, after getting the foosball table, expanding the office because we needed a game room, then you got to figure out, oh God, what is your business? And for me, I will just tell you if you're on the other end of this or you're in it. You know, all of my entrepreneur here group was like, mark, just give up. Like the idea didn't work anyway. So like you're allowed to as an entrepreneur. You're allowed to move, bail and move on to the next thing. Don't let this like hold you back. But like for some reason me and my co founder just couldn't be the people that, you know, lost people's money. And so we stuck with it. And we would do anything to keep the lights on. We always had this platform, Dev Hub and we would innovate on it and look for customers. And so some of the first customers were media companies who were using it to build small business sites. And then that evolved into multi location brands, I. E. Franchise.
- [06:26]
A
You know, as somebody that's been building technology franchise companies for quite a while, you know, two decades, and then also really building some technology companies. I was aware of Dev Hub quite a while ago, but I didn't think it was for me. I thought it was more for developers. Was it a tool for developers or was it always for end user consumers? Like, like we are engaging with you today.
- [06:53]
B
Oh, I'll say it like this. So we started with white labeling it to those media companies who worked with your Advanta clean back in the day, but we never had a relationship with you. So they were, instead of picking a WordPress, they picked DevHub. They would build on it, we would support them in building in it. But even though they weren't maybe the best at it, because they're not web developers, we'd be like, come on, let us like help. And but they're like, no, we got this. And so I don't know anyway, so no. But that name obviously lends itself to that on One end, people think it's that big. And then on the other end it's like, oh, it's an outsourced depth shop that does something else. And so I don't know. At this point, I just won't let it go.
- [07:37]
A
How'd you originally get into tech?
- [07:43]
B
When I was. I'll tell you this story. I don't know, told this on a podcast before, like when I was 17, I think it was. I, like, I basically knew I was never going to work for anybody in my life. So you got to figure I graduated high school in the year 2000. So, you know, 96 to 2000, right, was like the Internet. And I was like, game over. Like, it's all about the Internet. I always looked at it like it was oil or the gold rush, and if you can hit a pocket or a vein or whatever, like, it would come gushing. Obviously it was not like that for 20 years, but nonetheless, at the time, that is 100 what I thought. And, and also like the mindset was like at even 17, 18 and even today, like, if anyone can do, if someone else has done it, I can do it as good, if not better. And to me, tech is like real quick, just real quick. So ultimately, like, tech is like, I can run this whole thing off of our phone, right? Slack is connected to this. You know, this is all virtual at this point, you know, and as much as I care for the tangible things of art and like even like I want to own a hospitality company one day, this and that, it's like, I don't want to worry about the fork and like the tablecloth and who's showing up and who's like in tech, it's like it's sort of just in the air. And so I don't know, I was hooked from basically AOL, you know, call it 1984, you know, 66 megahertz computer. I was all about. It was, it was tech for me.
- [09:20]
A
It's interesting as somebody who built service business, there was a lot of window dressing that goes around these businesses. Oh, you gotta, you gotta brand the office for. You know, you gotta create your brand and then you gotta brand your vehicles. Then you gotta brand the office and you gotta get people to come into the office and then you gotta have a training room and you gotta have a place where parts are stored and, and all of this personal interaction happens and it was almost like, know that that was the hub. The hub was the physical location and that's where it began and that's where it end ended. And you know, I, when I was contracting, man, I mean, I'd leave the house before 6:00am in the office by 6:15, 6:30, coffee's going 7:00, you know, certain people are rolling in. By 7:15, all the crews are rolling in. And it was just this ritual of interaction in physical interaction with the fidget, physical accoutrement of everything that was going on there. And then we would go out and physically engage with people in their homes and businesses. The blend of that with the virtual world and taking away. I'm really on this big subtraction kick. The older I get, the more my success is about the things that I take away to create space for the things that really matter. And I mean to your point, like you've got, you got this money, oh, we need office, we need. Which means, we need office furniture, which means we need to attract this type of person. They're going to need to play pool and foosball and you know, have a coffee bar and maybe a kegger, you know, and it's like we got to have all this stuff, right? But the reality of it is you don't need any of that stuff. You, you, I mean to, to be in tech and you really, I mean you need only a, a bit of that stuff to be in service. And you know, the less friction that you create by creating rituals and routines that don't matter just because it's the way that people have always done it. The faster, the more agile business, the more profitable business, the more effective business you build. And it's, I think, like people especially of my generation and I'm in my mid-50s, we struggle with that, you know, because we're, we're looking to create this look, feel of a business that we've always had. And, and I constantly find myself, you know, thinking about, you know, the, you know, I mean, structure before strategy, not strategy before structure, you know, and, and really at the end of the day it's, it is the people that are thinking like you and the people that are thinking very nimbly, very tech forward are the, you know, it like it is. If you, if you put yourself in the right rooms and you allow yourself to be tech forward in your thinking and then maybe you sprinkle in a couple of books like Ray Kurzweil's book of, you know, the, the Singularity is Near with AI that's telling, you know, that somebody who's thoughtful about trends and actually where the world is going, you will create a completely different path than you probably would have otherwise, if you would have just tried to do the same thing over again. And there's nothing to say to that because that was just a big ramble. But like, that's, that's kind of where my head's. That's what I walked into the room with here.
- [12:37]
B
Honestly, what I'll say is like, I'm still nostalgic for being in the office though. Like, I genuinely. And you know, I'll say this candidly too. Like, three months into the pandemic, I left. I didn't leave Seattle. We got a place in Arizona again. I thought the whole thing was going to be a snowstorm. I didn't know it was going to last two years. And I was never more sure of my Life up until March 2020. Going out my front door in downtown Seattle, walking across the street to dev pubs offices, which still exist. And you know, like, just seeing everyone who's in line to the coffee shop downstairs in the class A office building, up the elevator, the randomness of the hallway, the randomness of the interactions at the desk. Who's in, who's not in, what attitude are they bringing? And then independent, fast forward five years and I sometimes will say to people like, oh, forget Seattle. And that's the first time I've probably amended it in public. And I always have to remind myself that it's not Seattle that change, it's just that people's lives and the little spheres that we were all connected by a physical place is just. It's not what's important to them necessarily. And, you know, it created that remote culture. Again, we're also a small company, right, under 40 people. So, you know, you figure like, you know, there was never a fair way to. After we bought that company in New York City, you know, half of our people are east coast, half are West Coast. So just because you live next to Seattle, like, you need to come into the office, you know, but meanwhile, if you're in Chicago or New York, where we don't have an office, you get to work remote. Like there was just, you know, and again, the bigger companies, like, everyone needs to come back to the office. Yeah, I get it, you're lucky in some respect. But yeah, we were never able to. But I do often think about what are the people missing from the human interaction. But again, I always ask our team, every day, long as you're happy, I'm good. You know, as long as the work's getting done, I'm good. And so, yeah, yeah, well.
- [14:48]
A
And if, you know, we're, you know, we're 70 people now here at home front, and only 16 are local. And it was much more than that. But if you prioritize talent over proximity, then you're going to find the most talented people. And now I look at it and say we spent a lot on flights because we do bring a lot of people in for our meet the team days to meet our candidates. You know, we want them to meet the people that they're going to be working with. And we. We think that. That that particular event is really important for us, and we have trainings here that are in person, that are hosted. So we. We probably spend an awful lot on flights, but, you know, maybe we spend a little bit less on office space. I don't know what the, you know, what the mix is there, but I, I know that during the pandemic, we in North Carolina had decided it was over. And then I went out to meet the coffee concept out in Seattle, and Seattle had decided it was not over. And I mean, it was, you know, we're walking down the street to get a cup of coffee, and it's like, you. The coffee counter was 10, I don't know, four paces inside the front door. But to walk from the street to the front door to the, to the coffee counter, you know, four steps, you had to show your vaccination card. And we were eating at lunch and. And somebody, you know, you. You could, you had to wear your mask to the table, but when you sat down at the table, you could take your mask off. So one of my business partners went to the bathroom and came back and was walking through the restaurant with his mask off. And, and, you know, he was asked to leave the restaurant, and he's like, so standing behind. Behind my chair, I don't have to. I have to wear my mask, but sitting in my chair, I don't. And, you know, but the logic was not, you know, the, you know, the logic did not reflect the law. And it was just. It was. It was a. It was almost like illusionary that we were in this, you know, this place with a different set of rules and stuff. But again, that's the normal, you know, in that. In that particular place in time. And, you know, it's. It's amazing, like, what we as humans get patterned into, and then we just accept as reality and we just kind of submit.
- [17:02]
B
Yeah, we can talk about it forever. Obviously, like, I have a million of those stories, you know, where it was like. I mean, my quick one was like, running outside and literally, like, people freaked out and There was like, there's like, I ran down the middle of 4th Avenue and people yelling. Literally the middle of 4th Avenue at that time was four lanes before they installed the bike lanes. And, you know, someone yelling from the sidewalk to put my mask on was.
- [17:28]
A
Why do people wear masks in their cars by themselves?
- [17:33]
B
Yeah, I mean, let's. 90%. Let's pivot 90 degrees. All right, but Jeff, I mean, again, am I allowed to pivot it or you want to.
- [17:44]
A
It is. It is your. It is. You are. You are driving.
- [17:48]
B
I want you. Here's my hot take right now. I want every employee to be on social media, especially sales marketing. If I had it my way, every department would have their own podcast similar to, again, like a barstool model. And again, it's not a plug for Dev Hub, but purely that people are social. Right. I mean, I, I, I, I mean, again, like, right now we're retooling our sales and marketing, and again, every candidate, I'm like, what's your thoughts on social? And so I know obviously you've embraced social. Like, give it, tell, like, tell us, and then I'll tell mine. Like, why? What made you do it? You know, how did it feel when you started to where you're at today? I mean, what do you think that 2x10x20x factor is of it? You know, like, all of it.
- [18:47]
A
Yeah. Okay. So for me, uh, I'm, you know, I don't post a lot personally because I'm still of the, I am not of the digital native generation, and I don't believe people care what I'm eating or what I'm doing. But, but, like, that's not the, that's not, that's not the point. Like. Right. I mean, the point is that people can't, people can't engage with and potentially buy from or contract with somebody that they've never known and somebody they're not aware of. And when you do get aware of somebody, you want to know what they're about. So, you know, creating constant content out there and making sure that it's available for people who are interested in joining Homefront Brands so that they know what we're about. Like, this conversation right here could, you know, if there's a candidate or a vendor or anybody else, they might make a determination as to whether we're the type of company that, you know, they want to engage with or that I'm the type of person that they want to get on a call with. And so for that reason, it's important. And I I also think that we, we are more. I mean, you know, it's. It's obvious that brands have. Could become secondary to personal brands. You know, you look at Grant Cardone, he's in the real estate business he's doing now. He was a speaker for years, right. And, you know, he just, he just decided that, or he realized that he can't speak to enough people, so he turned all of his attention to going online. So he's speaking to, you know, millions and tens of millions instead of hundreds. And, and then, you know, and that really led to. And then you can follow that from there and just say, what. What can you really help people with? Where do you want to educate people? So for me, you know, my, my thing is education, and it's education for people that are looking to transition out of corporate America. It's people, entrepreneurs, existing franchisees, or independent business owners that are looking for good thinking around how to think about their business from a leadership or a growth perspective. So getting people like you and other people on this podcast to say, hey, this is how I did it. These are the challenges I faced. This was the, this was how I had to shift my thinking. This is how I, I was resilient enough to make it through. These are some of the mistakes I made. Like, I mean, honestly, like, that's where I learned. I learned mostly through books during my era, growing up and reading everything that I possibly get my hands on. But that's not the preferred medium. I mean, it is for many, but like, for, for everybody, it's. It's this. So, you know, I have a responsibility. And by the way, I'm a massive introvert. I mean, my personality profile is a massive introvert. So it took a long time to be prodded to get out front of it and to, and to realize that we had to put resources around it. But, but what I do, what I am, is a coach. So if anytime that I can, I can assume the role of education. Connecting dots, bringing resources to people that they can use to make their lives better. Like, that's, that's what I'm about. So, so for me, that's, that's why we do the social media. And by the way, I mean, if you're not there, all your competitors are. So you've got to compete or share of people's, you know, thoughts and minds. So what are your best platforms? What do you. How do you guys. How do you think about it? And I was right.
- [22:14]
B
I was right. Yeah. So to me, LinkedIn is essentially 90%, you know, hopefully value again, what's the value of a website to a brand? Right? Uh, and then the 10% is like a picture of my cat or my dad, right? To be like, oh, there's like a human behind this, right? It's not just always. And again, I will say with even LinkedIn, I have found that the more I would say off the cuff and unrehearsed, the better it does. Like, even the video that I'm looking at that posted today, I mean, I mean, I guess two quick things before I keep going. So, one, I met with my executive team last December, you know, our yearly end of year. And I was like, I was just like, I'm drawing the line. I was like, everyone needs to be on social. I don't care if you're posting about DevHub or your life. I don't really care. Just be on LinkedIn for right now. LinkedIn. And the, the back I got was like, mark, what takes you 30 seconds to a minute will take me three hours. So would you rather me figure out what I'm posting or doing the work? And I'm in my mind, I'm like, there's nothing to make up. Like we're already living it. There's innovation happening every single day, you know, Like, I'm like, right now we did some AI things and if we get to that, we'll talk about it. But we're going to see the live demo internally on Friday. Well, I know about it right now. Like I knew, you know, and it's like I'm dying to post it, you know, but it's like I have, I have to wait till Friday. But it's like it's already happening all the time, you know, and so I don't know what people's hesitation is. B2B on LinkedIn, social is just wide open because everyone wants polished and everybody, everyone thinks everyone wants polished. The more off the cuff, but the more industry is, I think it goes, it does really well. Instagram is a mix, probably 50% personal slash entertainment. And then the other half is like business, you know, again, website type stuff. I would say Tick tock is just random as hell. Like whatever I'm feeling that day, even if it's a song I'm listening to, I don't really care, I'll just post it. And then YouTube to me is kind of like in some versions, like a very sort of curated by different personality types of mine, right? So some of it's like, here's commissions of a small time CEO. Here's shorts that I've done. Here's a company that I'm thinking about launching. Here's market analysis, you know, here's daily vlog. All of that just kind of curated in YouTube. And again, where I think people sometimes do struggle with social is like, they don't see a lift right away or they can't correlate a list attribute. So it's like, oh, it's not worth it. Yeah. And it's like, I just. At this point, I just. Here's what I tell people. Social is. It's human curiosity. So I post a picture of a cat on LinkedIn. They're like, who the hell is this guy posting a picture of a cat on LinkedIn? Go to Mark Michael. Wait, what does Mark Michael do? Oh, Dev Hub. Oh, wait, websites. Oh, wait, my friend was thinking about websites. Or I'm thinking, you know, like, it's just human. And like. Yeah, then maybe they fill out a form or maybe they DM. But they'll never say, I saw you on LinkedIn.
- [25:39]
A
You know, referred by.
- [25:40]
B
And so it's like, right. You know, I mean, there's a video that we had last year, 23 views on YouTube. And one of those views was August one auto care. I'll just say it. And they literally said, we watched this video. That's why we filled out the form, 23 views. And so it's like, I. Like, at this point after that, I was like, I'm off to the races. I don't even care if it's five. I don't care if it's 4,000. I don't care if it'S 200,000. I don't. I'm. I'm all about it, you know. And so now is that your.
- [26:11]
A
Let me ask you. I think you're on YouTube. Let me ask about your podcast. It's called Glider CEO.
- [26:16]
B
Yeah.
- [26:17]
A
Okay. What's your cadence with that? And what do you try to get down there?
- [26:23]
B
You know, it's really weird. I. I've always been like a journaler, I guess. And I always think, like, we're like, right at that generation. At least mine is that if. Or when or duh, Dev becomes that company, I just want all the receipts that no one can ever say, oh, look, they just built a tech company and flipped it. It was like, here's the thoughts, here's the daily showing up. Here's what working out every day at 5am actually looks like. Not someone telling you, hey, you should work out in the morning. But like, oh, wow, they actually did get up Every day. And there's receipts, there's those videos, there's, you know, and so for me, Glider CEO is basically that journal. And essentially, in some respects, it's me talking to myself to give myself permission in the hopes that it helps somebody else be like, oh, yeah, why do I care so much? Like, let me just let it rip. At the same time, I will say, almost, for whatever it's worth, I know job seekers right now are a little bit relentless. Nonetheless, for some reason, it seems like most people who obviously are trying to join DevHub are going through all of the content across the different channels and being like, who the hell is this co founder? And again, it's either like, I like the realness, the directness, the unrehearsed part of this, or no, it's too chaotic. And again, I always tell people in interviews, like, my job is to scare you not to come here. You know, and so, yeah, and so I think about three, 300 plus episodes. You know, again, my problem probably with social is that it is always unrehearsed, right? And there's like no rhyme or reason. It's all of a sudden, like, in one week, I have 10 ideas. I let. I put all 10 ideas out there. Blog, video, a podcast, and then like, and maybe even for one month, I'll just be in that cadence. It's like every day. Oh, yeah, this and that. And then like, there'll be like two months of nothing.
- [28:30]
A
Do you post yourself?
- [28:31]
B
You know, I do it.
- [28:34]
A
That's, you know, a lot of people that I see taking off and being success, I do it.
- [28:39]
B
I do it in the bathroom.
- [28:40]
A
Okay.
- [28:40]
B
Like, I do, like, literally, I will film it, not think about it all day. When I go to the bathroom, maybe I'll sit a little bit longer and I'll sit there and edit and cap cut. Or like, it's like I just again, like, it's part of life and I'm not overthinking it, which is where I think so many people get stuck, right? I don't want to sound like an idiot. I don't want to sound like this. Like, again, that video I posted today on LinkedIn, it was like, it was just like an off the cuff comment I made about the person who had posted the thing before. And I just kind of said like, oh, I don't know if our relationship's there yet. Whatever that line was made them repost it to their profile. And it was like, oh, wow. Like, it was just me.
- [29:17]
A
Just.
- [29:18]
B
I could have edited that out, right? Because I Sound like an idiot, you know. But again, I think people recognize real and that's what they want. And it's like, I don't know, if you watch the Megan Marco show, I won't go down that rabbit hole. But it was wild.
- [29:31]
A
Seen it, haven't seen it. But I think, I think that is the hot take that you post all your social media in the bathroom. I will certainly be thinking about that as I scroll your content. So that is a hot M. Mark Michael take.
- [29:48]
B
I mean, yeah, it's really easy. I mean just dumb.
- [29:52]
A
All right, I'm gonna.
- [29:54]
B
You know, obviously they. Everyone's like, I don't have.
- [29:56]
A
Right.
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B
And it's like you do have time.
- [29:59]
A
Yeah.
- [29:59]
B
You just don't want to hit you just.
- [30:00]
A
It doesn't take long, you know, stay truth.
- [30:03]
B
You don't even have to edit it if you don't want to.
- [30:05]
A
Yeah.
- [30:06]
B
You know, I normally edit. Here's the thing. I edit right here. Watch me turning it on. I edit that out and my arm comes.
- [30:14]
A
Hey, look.
- [30:14]
B
You know, that's the only thing I really edited out.
- [30:17]
A
Oh, the, the finger.
- [30:18]
B
What is that like? Yeah, like the finger of like me hitting the button on the phone is like the literally the only thing I actually edit out. Otherwise it's pretty raw. And I add like a little depending on that very end. Like just like a little trailer at the very end.
- [30:35]
A
Interesting trends in search happening right now. You have an integrated website platform and you've done integrations. What is the, I mean first, before we get to search, what is the secret sauce of the DevHub platform that you believe creates an advantage for the people that use.
- [31:00]
B
Is 100% built. It is 100% built for location based businesses. Right. So it's multiple multi websites for businesses that have a lot of locations. Not a multi website platform which is like spinning up. We always say once you have more than two websites you have a problem, you know. And so again because it's location focused, there is no look it up. There is no everyone has multi website solutions. Everyone thinks they can use the WordPress or whoever else to build a multi website solution. It's the problem isn't multi website. That part's easy. It's the multi location management where this franchise wants to do something different or you know, again it's. We've learned a lot in the space anyway. But yes, it's focused on multi location where that data goes, you know, Google whatnot based on again location or service area. Yeah.
- [31:59]
A
Does it create more flexibility for franchisees who are Aggressive and who want to create content and who really want to contribute to the performance of their website. Does it create the avenue for that easier than other platforms?
- [32:16]
B
It's. I mean, the short answer is yes. Except. Except, like certain things just don't play. Like, there's just no shortcuts. Right, Right. So again, like, different. Like I say your franchisees, like, because, yeah, don't forget like what's unique about franchise, which I learned sort of the hard way. Right. Like beyond us selling the franchisor and being like, you need your own website and all the franchise, it's like the franchise still getting hit up by a thousand agencies being like, hey, your website sucks. Hey, your paid shirt doesn't work. Hey, so like there's a million people in there here, right? So a lot of what we're doing is being like trying to work with the franchiser and be like, look, it feels relevant. So when the franchisee comes over and says, hey, I want to build 10 city pages. Well, it's like, well, one, the franchisor might be trying to sell one of those other cities and to take that back is a whole nother issue. But regardless, it's like, yeah, but those city pages are maybe duplicative of something else. Like you're taking away from this call to act like there's and for us to educate. So it's like they have ammo back to tell that agency this. So hopefully keeps those agencies and other people at bay so that it's not just always like, we are active. Like, because that's what it seems like a lot like, it's always like, oh, I got to do this thing. It's like, Julia, do you. I mean, we've had. Anyway, it's like. And it's crazy because again, last year was the first time we were in theory in market and there was. And I always say my favorite thing is pitching, which I don't know if we got to actually pitch you, but nonetheless, my favorite things we pitch because I always see that as long as we leave it all on the field, if we lose, I don't care. But at least we told like, here's what's up. And again, it's not the cheapest and everything helps. And there was three brands last year that we lost. That all came back this year. And to unwind what happened because again, someone sold them 10,000 page SEO package. It's like, do you know what you just did, though? Like, you know, do you know why you spiked and then tanked? You know, because it was just Totally irrelevant content. But just because it was 10,000 pages, you thought it was Val. And again, like, I hate to say that that is how I sometimes do talk, but again, it's just like, come on. Like, it's not that hard. Like we say structurally, if the website is sound, you never have to worry about it again. And so. Yeah, and then you're really, then you can actually measure how the other vendors are performing because, you know, the website is. But a lot of times we say you don't even need more leads, you just need a better website.
- [34:54]
A
Yeah. And so anyway, how much do you play in. In. And obviously with SEO and the structure of the websites matter a great deal. But you know, as far as search goes, you know, we're, I'm deep, I'm working on the, you know, fun. We, you know, I look at it this way, you know, we have our foundational marketing as a franchisor that, you know, we aspire to be great at. And that's the websites, that's SEO, that's pay per click vendors, that is, you know, all the kind of table stakes out there. And then you get into this area of conversion, right, where you get enhanced tools. And that's kind of for people that don't convert immediately off of a web form or schedule or immediately, you know, then they've got to be nurtured and they've got to be converted and they've got to be messaged to. So whether it's text or voice or email or a combination of all of these types of things that happen. And there, and AI is creating lots of conversion tools now that allow you to, you know, that, that, that allow you to be a lot more granular and a lot more unique in terms of customer experience and stuff like that. So that kind of sits on top of that, that are that foundation. Then on top of that sits, you know, campaigning. Right. Okay. Well, now, based on the insights that we got from our bottom to, you know, our foundation and our stuff now, hey, there's a whole nother group of people that are probably susceptible to this offer. And what are the offers we can make to drop them into our conversion stack to, you know, to. And they play back and forth between the foundation, the website pages and the conversion tools and it all, it all works together. Complicated stuff, you know, and, and, but at the front end of all of that is search. And you know, you've got Google and you've got all the, all the different aspects that you need to do to play with Google. Then you've Got your Bing and now you're, you're. You know, I was at a conference where they said chat is going to surpass Google in the number of searches in 2026, which it's a tiny fraction of it now. And that's kind of a bold statement, but the content that you need to make or a chat or for a Gemini to pick up is different types of content because they're trying to actually solve your problem through chat versus just serve you a list of options. So it's a really interesting differentiation between how and a large language model like chat's going to work in terms of trying to solve your problem for. You could say, who is the best air. You know, I am having this problem. My air conditioner is making this noise. I live at this address. Who is the best company for me to call? Like. And it'll take a whack at it. You know, it'll. It'll, you know, it'll. It'll reference all kinds of information and it'll say, I would call, you know, Lewis Heating and Air, and I would ask him for this program and that and that and the other thing, which is kind of crazy, you know, and then we're not even talking about things like Alexa that people might ask or, or, you know, Siri. So I think, you know, the search game has been won, but now maybe it's. It's gonna be changing drastically over the next 24 months. Do you have an opinion on that? And if so, what are you doing at DevHub and kind of the website, from the website angle to, to take advantage of those trends? Oh, are you gonna hit it? Are you gonna hit this out of.
- [38:22]
B
The park or are you hitting.
- [38:25]
A
Are you hitting me?
- [38:26]
B
We. We never wanted to build a company. This is going back to 2007. We never wanted to build a company that was scared of Google or what comes next, AKA what comes next is how the consumer behaves. Right? So that was always our thesis. That's why I document everything. Devhub.com forward slash, history. We were always ahead of Ada. We were always ahead of mobile. We were always ahead of Google. Expanded text ads. We were always ahead of all the Panda updates. We never. We built the platform to be structurally sound to every SEO schema. What's the other one? Anyway? All of them. For the record, I'm not the technical one, right? The reason I can talk like this is because my co founder Since I was 17 is the product guy and he emboldens me to be like, the go for it man. And so like the demo I saw last week. So real quick. So anyway, never be worried about Google. Structurally your websites are sound again. And so going back to your original things, like what if a franchisee wants to do this? It's like ultimately they can now do. We sometimes think it's not the right thing, but then the franchise like just give it to them. It's like, like how hard do we put our foot down being like it will not help and it will only hurt. Like they just want that call or support ticket to stop coming in. And again we're trying to be like, here's why, here's why, here's why, here's why it won't work, you know, but it's like maybe it's crazy enough that it will work. It's like, oh God, how many years we have to be doing this? You know? Anyway, so one, we have all the receipts. Never want to build a platform that was scared of anything else coming next. As it relates to the future of search, which is where my co founder does spend a lot of his time, we are looking at it like this, right? So at least with again large language models, AI this and that, there's two aspects. This is. And again hopefully we can release this in the next week or so. Anyway, the consumer, right? So again the consumer doing that search, right, which is a lot more descriptive saying, hey, my brain is clogged, my kid, you know, did something weird. I need somebody to come over before 3pm before I have friends coming over, you know, and I want it to be cheap and quick, whatever the hell, right? We're actually playing with that one to natively integrate with some of those LLMs to basically sync the site to those one. A ChatGPT can actually read a dev hub site better than it can just read any other site on the web because it's actually natively integrated. But obviously that content has to exist on the site. And then of course the flip side of how we're looking at it is for like a home front brands or whoever that we're working with in the future that like you can actually create your own AI agent, let's just say your own web developer in house to basically be like, hey, go into my northwest region of seven brands. Let's just say that it is like that and roll like I got goosebumps and a little teary eyed anyway, you know, go into my northwest region of all seven brands because all seven brands, right, and be like, hey, I want to update this promo. Structurally it knows DevHub right. We can integrate it like that and actually can take all those actions that right now either you would have to do it or we would have to do it. Right. But like neither you Jeff or Mark Michael.
- [42:00]
A
So you got an age, you're building an.
- [42:05]
B
Again we still not. We can wait for Friday, you know. Well we're just not. I don't know. I'm waiting for my. I don't want to be too far ahead of my co founder but again regardless that type of stuff won't happen anyway till probably like the end of Q4 2025, Q1 2026. But again like right now I think it's doing two simple tasks. One it's again how does a chat GPT or I think actually tomorrow Fridays is maybe perplexity. I forgot anyway one of the models to basically. No what's Google's Claude? Maybe it's Claude. Anyway one of the I think name is probably Google obviously Gemini. Anyway where it's like how maybe anyway how is it actually reading the site within the conversational aspect of an LLM and here's it completing said task of like hey, go into my network of sites only update the northwest region. Okay. That's why location focus CMS is the game changer. Not just a multi site, right? Oh I know by zip code. I know by a million other things that those other ones are just using those as like tags and like they're just. They're basically just hacking it together. And so anyway. Yes. Thinking about all of it. Yeah yeah. Oh and then real quick because it is let's say multi location location focus like let's say that issue of a partial form fill or whatever that's not being completed like one we innovate against that. So a lot of what. What we're actually building beyond the like initial build is obviously the ongoing license which is going into this R and D. So we solved for partial form bills. So again that gets the roll, you know, somebody else, you know, the license fees essentially pay for that. And so we roll it out to you guys so that now you actually capture that and then again you still have to put it into the nurture or whatever but at least you have some information that it wasn't just like a. A ghost. Still real quick, second thing having been websites for so long, right. So we started off as the classic website builder call it wix Weebly Squarespace and it was first individual small businesses. Right. So again you think a media company yellow page company at that time is going or you know, TV cable Company, hey, I want to sell you digital ads, but I also want to sell you a website. So that sales rep goes in, says, hey, small business, plumber, whoever, you know, what kind of website do you want? Right? And they're doing that all for, call it 50 bucks a month or 100 bucks a month, you know, for. And, and when you give to a person a choice, basically, there's almost no choice, right? And so what we did in those 10, 15 years was like, we actually looked at verticals, right? Specifically, actually home services to be like, wait, there's a really pretty home service site with like the van and all this stuff. And then here comes a site that actually drives traffic or, sorry, drives conversions, right? There's no map on the page. The hero image better have the call to action in it. It better all load on the top half of mobile. And so then now those sales reps, as they went in to sell, you know, small businesses, be like, do you want a pretty site or do you want a site that drives calls, call clicks, form fills? And again, 99% of people. So it was never. Then it stopped being about like design and how many templates do you have? And then it got really fun because then they started to scale. But then the whole world sort of imploded on itself.
- [45:40]
A
And then, yeah, talking about ui, ux, user interface, user experience, you know, there was all this. I remember seeing Gary Vee at like the IFA conference, like, I don't know, five years ago now, and he was saying, this time next year, you know, nobody's going to use a keyboard anymore. It's all going to be voice, you know, Okay, I use voice for a lot of things now, but it, you know, it doesn't feel like it's gotten as where it was going as fast as people thought it was going to get there. What do you see right now with, you know, the, the rapid changing in technology as far as user experience goes? I mean, are we going to be moving with AI, are we going to be able to move even more onto mobile than onto desktops? I mean, if that's even possible. Now what are you guys doing? What are you seeing? Or do you think it's just going to be kind of business as usual? People, you know, getting tech neck looking down at their phones, clicking away at stuff and getting what they need.
- [46:48]
B
Two angles, one.
- [46:52]
A
I mean, I just want the thing on my shirt like Captain Kirk. I just want to be. I just want to press the button and ask for what I want. Like that's, that's where again, I mean.
- [47:02]
B
Again, like, the numbers don't lie. I mean, Basically it's like 70, 80% of all searches are mobile at this point, especially when it's something local. Like, that's been a fact for, like, it's got to be close to a decade, but let's just call it five years. And so that's already there. The reality is, though, when we do our pseudo presentations, right, we still show everything on desktop, but just with a huge asterisk. This is all built. A different version is actually built for mobile. And I always say there's this thing called human time. How did the Carnegies, the Morgans, the Rockefellers build these huge empires back in the day? And today it's like, you know, like, hey, can you meet today? And like, even we can do it right now, but it's like, can we meet today? Uh, let me check for like two, three weeks. Meanwhile, back then, they're sending a telegram. What I say is, like, ultimately, like, you walk into a Bank of America, they're still running Windows xp. I think Lufthansa is still flying on, like, you know, Windows 2000, you know, like, there's just like a human element that, you know, and it's like I try to judge things on two things. What my parents are doing and when I go to the bathroom on the airplane and I walk back down the aisle to look at everyone's devices to see what everyone is doing. And so, you know, mobile's definitely here. Voices will be more a part of it. I mean, I think this is starting to feel more and more clunky.
- [48:34]
A
Yeah.
- [48:35]
B
You know, but again, like, it's still like a lifeline. I mean, there's sleep next to it, you know, like, so we're not there yet. It's not in here yet. Even though maybe it looks like it's there, you know, maybe it'll be here soon.
- [48:47]
A
Yeah, Think about it though.
- [48:48]
B
Like, it's just a matter of, like.
- [48:50]
A
I go to a website for, to, to give me an indication that I need to take an action. Okay, are they here? Do I want.
- [49:00]
B
Is.
- [49:01]
A
Do they have what I'm looking for? Can I tell, you know, what the price is and how long it's going to take? Like, I'm going for that information. So I, so I, I sit down or I go to my phone and I just start researching. Well, AI does that for you. So if you just, if you just tell them the prompt is the problem that you want to solve, like, you can skip all that by just asking the right Question. If you're confident that the search is going to be exhaustive, number one. Number two, it's going to, it's going to, it's going to arrive at the same conclusion that you would have anyway, had you put the time in and, you know, and then how, how long will it be before we all. Because so for. I have this very cool, cool thing if, if I send you an email or I've got a new jeffdew.com website coming out. I have a, I have a clone and to write content for my shorts. And we invested a lot of time in this and it was actually something that came with the membership of a group I've got. It's not an inexpensive tool. At what point I'm gonna have to start paying for it. But, like, it answers questions better than me. Like that I would answer. And so if we want to write something in my words, we can ask, pose the question to that short, to that clone. It'll give me an answer. I can take that answer and I can go to chat or grok or, you know, one of the. And I can have them expand it because we also have a Jeff Dooden chat bot, a Chibi GPT bot. And so now I've got, you know, two reasonable facsimiles of me, but it's all from, you know, articles and my books and podcasts and everything. So it basically answers, it knows how I'm going to answer the question. So I'm relative. Like when I, when I, if I, you know, somebody asked me a question, sometimes I'll just pull it up and ask it and I'll put the phone down and it'll talk for three minutes and it'll answer their question. But it would have been exactly the way I would have answered it if I was well rested, prepared and organized, you know, and if I just don't, if I'm tired and I don't feel like doing it, I'll say, here, let me give you the answer. And it's great. So, like, at what point does everybody have a clone of themselves? And then the decisions that it serves back to them are, you know, a reasonable facsimile of where they would have landed in the first place.
- [51:26]
B
I mean, someone to build that, make it easy for everyone to be able to do it.
- [51:32]
A
Yeah.
- [51:32]
B
You know, I mean, that's why I, it's again, like, I doubled down on all the content and everything that I do because I do think there'll be a way for somebody to ingest it one day or a technology to ingest it all and be like, here you are, you know, I haven't done it yet. But again, like when we look at it from the website side of it, you know, my, and this is my co founder now talking, he said this one. It's a data play, right? So ultimately, again, like, how do you think that data where it needs to go, Right, right. You know, that goes to go to chat GPT or Plexi or cloud or whatever the hell, you know, and how does that serve it up also? Does that need to go to your classes? Does that need to go to Alexa, does that need to go to, you know, where it needs to go? But then ultimately what he keeps saying is that the website is still where a lot of the action is still being taken. Like even when we're playing with, you know, chat GB or OpenAI's operator, right? It's still going to the website to book an appointment. So like you said at the beginning of this, call the front door. When you walk into the front door, like, is that CRM behind the scenes going to work and fire the way it needs to? Like, is that integrated in a way that is also responsive to that AI agent coming to the website? Like, so there's like, basically in most of the sites we're doing, obviously multilocation, there are, call it what, at least two to four integrations on every, in every system. And so whether it's a tracking pixel, whether it's a CRM, whether it's, you know, chatbot. And so he still believes that it's the ultimate source of truth, it's the ultimate representation of the brand. Even if the consumer is not necessarily coming to the website, that website still being that data repository to be able to be sent to where that data is being called out of. And so he gives me, he lets me breathe at night or lets me sleep at night for I think at least another two to five, I think.
- [53:35]
A
The websites are going to be more important than ever. And the nature of the content that a chat search is going to be looking for is going to have. It's, it's actually more content. It's going to have to be more robust and more specific and more complete because that's what it's going to be looking for. So the websites become, you know, very, very important for all the ways that the information is going to be accessed. It's got to be somewhere, right? And, and, and by the way, there are still people on aol. So like, it's to your point, like the, the rate of Adoption of us as humans as we go work our way through this life and we, we age, there's, you know, people, I mean my, my wife's mother, I mean she's all, she's better at Facebook, my father better at Facebook than I am. I mean it's, it's up there, it's.
- [54:23]
B
I don't know. My father has the flip side. He's like anti tech, but, but you.
- [54:27]
A
Know, they'll, they'll, they're going to want to go to, they're not going to adopt these AI technologies very quickly. So I, you know, it's, it's all, it's all interesting but man, it's moving so fast right now.
- [54:39]
B
But again, like, look, there's this record of our conversation.
- [54:44]
A
Yeah.
- [54:44]
B
You know, and we'll see how. I love it because again, it's another reason. We'll see how it ages. Right. Did DevHub live up? Did they build that brand? You caught us in that moment where it's like, oh my God. That's now the de facto standard for how agents how AI, how chat, da da da like plays into the future or did they not get there in time? I mean, I look at it like I told everyone in our company, it's a 22 month race at this point. It's 24 obvious actually. No shit. Now we're almost the end of first quarter, so yeah, about 20 month, 20 months, 21 months race right now to get to where we think it's going regardless to have all the standards plugged in, the new standards that are being adopted.
- [55:29]
A
Yeah, you certainly, you gotta, your vision boards have to get a lot shorter in terms of timeframe now. It's not like a, I mean 10, can you imagine 10 years from now? I mean, not even worth thinking about. Like there's so much to do to get.
- [55:43]
B
But and then going back to, I think we were talking about social before. That's why I do think brand will outlive almost anything is kind of where I'm like, almost like the hill that I'm willing to die on at this point. You know, whether that's a personal brand or the company brand, I just like, I believe it. You know, my problem right now is that I'm out there talking on behalf of Dev Hub and you know, like, what is the overall message? Yeah, they're great. Yeah, they think they're great. You know, like what is the singular thing? And that is what we're honing in on right now. And so I mean once we nail that, like we're good at least. Well, the front end.
- [56:29]
A
It's a great platform. It's thoughtfully put together. It's got 20 years of development behind it where you were behind the scenes kind of as a white label product for smart people to use a drug dealer. And then you tell people, and then, you know, you're like, who is that man behind the curtain? And you opened up the curtain and out you popped.
- [56:49]
B
And.
- [56:49]
A
And now you're working with great brands, like home front brands and so many others in the franchise space.
- [56:56]
B
Yeah, I don't know every. Like, again, when you say it like that, it makes me teary eyed because it's like, oh, my God, we're out there. I'm telling you. We were behind the scenes for so long and it was just like, you know, I hate to say, like, bitching, but nonetheless, it was like, come on, why would you do that? Not this. Like, this is crazy. Like, you know, let us leave. And again, once you're live, hopefully that's where you start to see a lot of the value. Right. And a lot of things that we're developing. Oh, by the way, now you have all. Now you have this capability across all your brands. Like, holy. Like, they just did that on their own. Like, yeah, like, that's what gets everyone excited over here, you know, like, again, it's an actual technology, not just like a service that we provided.
- [57:40]
A
Well, we're looking forward to growing together with you, your team, and with DevHub, you got time for a curveball and a fastball. Oh, by the way, what happened to the rock band called Married?
- [57:57]
B
So it's. I'll tell you right now. He's right here. Look at him. Look at him right here.
- [58:04]
A
Oh, man. All right, what was going on there?
- [58:09]
B
So about. I listened to rap some. 42, right? Graduated High School 2000. So I listened to rap. Call it 38 years of my life. Just. Just to make it 38 years, I was all about rap.
- [58:22]
A
Rap, rap, rap, rap, rap.
- [58:23]
B
Everything's rap. I never heard a rock song in my life. I didn't care. I didn't care. It was all about rap. I want to party. It was rap, rap, rap. And then one day I just woke up. I was like, the rap's full of like. I was like, I can't do this anymore. I don't believe it. It's like they're lying. They're not really, you know, like, about the life that, you know, I'm just like, I can't, you know, I'm like, I can't like, it feels fake at this point. So I stopped listening to rap and I went down the rock and roll rabbit hole. Like, everything was new to me from Van Halen. I mean, all of it was new to me. Like, everyone I talked to, somebody, they said like, duh, Mark. I'm like, no, I didn't. I didn't know. Like, I just didn't know. Like, I just didn't pay attention, didn't care. I went down the rabbit hole so hard. I went to the guitar. I'm. I'm going to learn guitar now. And so I went to the guitar store to buy a guitar. And then I saw like, this little worn in the corner, which is like a little smaller piano. And it's like the Ray Charles is sound. I'm like. And they're like, oh, it's a rock and roll piano. I'm like, I'm going to be the best piano player. I'm going to put on shows. I'm. I even got the name Mary tattooed on my side, which I still laugh about like an idiot. But nonetheless, I took two singing lessons and I put on a concert for like 80 people, and I absolutely bombed. Except. Except. Except our merch was good. And regardless, like, I think I bombed, but people thought it was all part of the act. And so I was like, oh, my God, I can actually be good at this. And so I've been practicing. Practicing. My point is, Mary, it's not bad. And hashtag, let's get married, let's get married. But anyway, yes, it's a. It's a. In theory, a rock band. I actually don't even think it's a rock band anymore. It's more of like a. If Bobby Darren, Perry Como, Dean Martin had like an 80s synth behind it. It's like, in that vein.
- [60:14]
A
Okay.
- [60:15]
B
And so.
- [60:16]
A
Well, you talked 80 people into joining into your illusion of this event. It must have been a blast.
- [60:26]
B
It was. And it was called Martinis. And the next one is in May or, sorry, in September in Kenny Bunkport, Maine.
- [60:35]
A
Seriously.
- [60:36]
B
So everyone's invited? Yeah. 100. And so I'm opening up with beyond the Sea by Bobby Dear. And again, think with a little bit of a sin, you know. And I'm getting. You know. Yeah.
- [60:46]
A
All right. Anyway, well, I'll. I will check my email for my invite. Save the date.
- [60:53]
B
All right, well, I'm. I'll take. Cool.
- [60:55]
A
Here's a. Here's a curveball for you, Mark.
- [60:58]
B
Yeah.
- [60:59]
A
If Gun to your head, you had to start a new business in third the next 30 days that you are currently not active in. Where's the opportunity that you as an entrepreneur see? And if you had to do it, like what's, what's the one thing that you would do?
- [61:15]
B
Starting copy cult Copy culture has gone too far. People want drip coffee fast. They want their time back. We're sick of paying with tips. It got too pretentious. I would 100% go into the coffee business. Yes, yes, yes, I agree with that.
- [61:33]
A
Well, what would you call it? And you would, it would have to be something like really simple.
- [61:38]
B
It's bb, nyc. Best brewed New York City. Best brewed Seattle. Best brewed Boston. Best brewed Austin. Best brewed Miami. That's brood and that's what it is. 10 drips, 5 hot, 5 regular, 2 decaf, 3 cold. Brew fast. Time back. You can't sit there with your laptop. You're in. There's shifts of people, three, four people serve you, check you out. No more waiting in line, no more standing behind the llamarazana, whatever the hell machine that is that everyone has. Like, get your time back, meet your neighbors, be cool.
- [62:11]
A
Double drive, double drive throughs the ones that I've seen now where you just have drive thru on both sides and no seating. So Here you go. 10 drips, no tips to your lips.
- [62:24]
B
Goosebumps. You see my hair standing up. I mean it probably always does stand.
- [62:28]
A
Up, but nonetheless, that's 10 drips, no tips to your lips.
- [62:33]
B
10 drips to your 10 tips. No tips your lips.
- [62:41]
A
A lot of people are upset about the tipping. You know that you're constantly being forced. I mean you pick up a set, you know, $6, $7 sandwich or whatever and they're, you know, it's like 20%.
- [62:52]
B
I'm not going to show the company name, but nonetheless, this is a 16 ounce drip coffee for $5 and 2 cents. And I would say not a New York City. Right. I mean a cappuccino in Seattle is basically $12 like any. And, and like there's just no hospitality. It's like, go wait in line, then wait in another line. Like get out of here.
- [63:17]
A
Like, what's the, what's a, what's a fair price you like to pay for a good cup of coffee?
- [63:23]
B
For coffee, $4 tax and tip included.
- [63:27]
A
Okay.
- [63:29]
B
In a major city.
- [63:30]
A
Yeah. I mean I think Starbucks used to be like a buck 90 for their drip, but now it's, everything's crazy. Best fruit New York City. You got it.
- [63:42]
B
Decent. We're also going to have $2 shots of coca Cola because I don't think anyone wants to drink a whole. Okay, so just like a little $2 pour of coca Cola. Again, big bar. So it's like a bar. You can't see it. See, like the bar. So it's a U shaped bar.
- [64:01]
A
Yeah.
- [64:02]
B
Right. So again, three, four people working any side. We serve and pour on any side of the bar you walk up to.
- [64:09]
A
Yeah. You know, any, any drinks is super high margin. It's just, it's super high margin.
- [64:18]
B
Donut holes, bagel bites, cookies all wrapped in butcher paper, shot of coke, 2 ounce for $2. A caviar bump for 10.
- [64:27]
A
Caviar bump. Okay.
- [64:31]
B
Again, that's. So my idea is like even hyper local. So like I'm thinking obviously New York City. So like each neighborhood has kind of like maybe their thing. So this first one is Gramercy Park. So for that one it's like a caviar bump. I don't know.
- [64:44]
A
We'll see here in North Carolina. We'll do, you know, one spoon of cheese grits.
- [64:51]
B
There you go.
- [64:52]
A
8:25.
- [64:54]
B
Hey. Hey. I have to. Hey, I'll sell you that franchise.
- [64:58]
A
Thanks. I'll fill out a form on the website.
- [65:02]
B
Is that BB Raleigh or is that.
- [65:06]
A
Durham, north of Charlotte?
- [65:09]
B
Yeah. I'll give you rtp. Fine, you can have bb.
- [65:12]
A
I'll take bbclt, you know. Yeah. And we can have one at the airport.
- [65:18]
B
Actually, I. I'm almost convinced I would franchise too. I'm almost convinced you know who to call.
- [65:29]
A
Well, you have a lot of people you could call, but. All right.
- [65:33]
B
Okay. I just, I know that you went to a coffee concept in Seattle. Obviously you are going to be my.
- [65:37]
A
Yeah, there you go. There you go. It's a good one too. I liked it. Worked with him for a little bit. All right, here. So that was the curveball. Here's the fastball. And by the way, thanks. Before we do that, how can people get in touch with you, Mark? Where do you want to direct? People want to either connect with you or connect with the business.
- [65:55]
B
Look, number one websites. Devop.com, michael.org glider CEO like glider. Like hand glider. CEO, chief executive officer. Just Google that. That pops up on all social. But I mean, I'm pretty easy to get a hold of. I mean just because it is out there. And so. Yeah.
- [66:17]
A
Awesome.
- [66:18]
B
You're good.
- [66:18]
A
Great. Okay, here's the fastball. If you had one sentence to make an impact in somebody's lives based upon your journey, what would that be?
- [66:27]
B
If you know you're right and you're good looking, go for it.
- [66:32]
A
Is that from your dad? If you know you're right and you're good looking, go for it.
- [66:38]
B
He instilled a psychotic confidence in all the boys and the cats that he's like, I mean, honestly, every time you walk in the room he's like, I can't even look at you. Your heads are so good looking.
- [66:48]
A
I'll tell you what, one of the biggest, one of the best predictors of a happy, fulfilled life is self esteem. And it is up to our parents to instill that in us. And it sounds like you did.
- [66:59]
B
And again, I try to pass that on, you know, without kids of my own, to my nephews and I don't have nieces yet, I don't think. But yeah, I'm like, oh my God. I mean they're like firstborn. I can't even put their head up, but I'm like, gosh, you're gonna look in their face with my mustache. Like you're the. If nothing else.
- [67:22]
A
That won't make an impact.
- [67:24]
B
It is true.
- [67:24]
A
Yeah.
- [67:25]
B
I didn't know at the time because they raised us very strict, very strictly even joking like this is like not. Was not in our household. It was like very strict until about 22, 23 years old. And then it was like he was just like one day. And you always say the same thing. One day we'll be best friends. Like f you. You will never be best friends. You don't know what it's like, you know, all this that you say as a teenager and then sure enough, you know, like being out all the time.
- [67:53]
A
We, we had a similar evolution in my relationship with my kids. They were all very strict on me, but eventually they realized from a young age that I was the problem.
- [68:06]
B
Are they all big?
- [68:07]
A
No, not really. They're normal, just, you know, really normalish, you know. And yeah, because you're a big guy.
- [68:14]
B
Like you're tall, like you have a presence, you know, like. And so yeah, yeah, we, we get.
- [68:20]
A
We get a lot there.
- [68:21]
B
Congratulations, man.
- [68:22]
A
They're great. Well, hey, Mark, this has been amazing. Really enjoyed our time together. I look forward to, you know, our relationship as it continues to grow. Dev Hub is, is great for any company out there, especially multi location businesses like franchising. We have a big audience in franchising here, so hopefully you'll get some calls and maybe you'll get some deals out of it. It is a long cycle time. The switching cost is high, but so you want to work with a partner that you can trust because you certainly don't want to do it more than once. And dev hub for our money is. It's a big part of that solution. So, Mark, thanks for being on.
- [68:57]
B
No, thank you, Jeff and team for trusting us. I mean, that's what this is all about, 100%.
- [69:01]
A
All right, this is Jeff Duden. We have been with the unflappable Mark Michael, and we have been on the home front. Thank you, everybody, for listening.
- [69:13]
B
Thank you.