Unemployable with Jeff Dudan – Words That Win: How Intentional Speech Drives Results with Phil M. Jones (#224)

Episode Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Jeff Dudan (Homefront Brands)
Guest: Phil M. Jones (Author, Speaker, Expert on Persuasive Language)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the power of intentional speech and communication in driving results personally and professionally. Jeff Dudan interviews Phil M. Jones, renowned for his book "Exactly What to Say" and for training millions worldwide in effective, influential language. Together, they explore why the words we choose—at work, at home, in sales, and in challenging conversations—make all the difference in outcomes, relationships, and leadership.

Phil shares frameworks on precision in language, preparing for critical discussions, holding space with silence, leveraging context in storytelling, and making every conversation count. The episode is a live coaching session for anyone wanting to be more persuasive, intentional, and impactful in how they speak.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Precision and Intention in Speech

• Language as a Solution to Problems: Phil asserts that almost every problem—be it in marriage, leadership, confidence, or retention—is fundamentally a communication challenge. Precise, intentional language solves issues.
  • Quote: "Most people do not have marriage difficulties. They have exactly what to say difficulties." (02:00)
• Nothing is Neutral: Every word, in any medium, either helps or hurts—neutrality is a sign of wasted opportunity.
• Extra Words, Extra Meanings: Jeff reflects on how lack of clear purpose in speech leads to wandering, ineffective language. Cites the impact of sales training early in his career. (03:00)

2. Preparation Matters (in Every Conversation)

• High-Stakes vs. Everyday Moments:
  • Phil points out people do the prep for public or highly scrutinized moments but neglect it in private interactions—when stakes can be just as high (04:30).
  • Fast Feedback vs. No Feedback: In content creation and sales, you get immediate feedback; in daily life (family, friends), you rarely get direct, helpful feedback (05:05).

3. Lazy Language & Asking Better Questions

• Lazy Questions Yield Lazy Answers: Phil critiques habitual questions—like “How was your day?”—for eliciting shallow answers (“fine, good”).
  • Instead: Ask specifics. “What did you do today?” gets richer emotional responses. (07:30)
• Shifting from Solve Mode to Teaching Thought: Phil encourages leaders and parents to resist jumping to solutions and instead coach people to reflect and articulate. (11:00)
  • Memorable quote: "We tell people what to do instead of teaching people how to think." (11:25)

4. The Power of Pausing, Cadence & Performance

• Jeff confesses his own challenge with filling space with unnecessary words, even after 200+ podcasts (13:00).
• Phil's Advice:
  • Use intentional pauses to hold attention and create tension—don’t worry about filling every gap.
  • Vary your "speeds of speech"—not just 'normal' and 'fast', but include a deliberate third 'slow' speed for emphasis and reflection (15:00).
  • Adapt your speaking style for different moments: individual conversations, live audiences, broadcast media (18:30).
  • "To avoid filler words, focus on adding a third speed of speech, intentional use of pause, and being the pacemaker in the conversation." (16:50)

5. Mastering Moments versus Mastering Scripts

• Scripts vs. Moments: The true skill is not memorizing lines—it's identifying and capitalizing on key moments that drive results (22:50).
• Example of ‘Will You Marry Me?’: The words are simple—the hard part is crafting the right moment for the ask (23:30).
• Overreliance on scripts misses the importance of emotional set-up and context.

6. Opening a Talk or Story: Context, Not Just Content

• Phil critiques Jeff’s story-based event-opening plan, suggesting it must connect personally with Jeff for the audience to care (29:58).
• Framework for Impactful Storytelling:
  • Begin with your own connection to the story (e.g., "15 years ago in a room of 15 CEOs, I…"), create openings that invite engagement, and alternate between story and point, setup and punchline (32:20).
  • Quote: "The cadence of a great speech is: tell a story, make a point... alternating between the two."

7. Critical Conversations: Navigating the Tough Stuff

• Key Insight: There is a difference between being right and getting the right result (37:24).
  • "You cannot influence anybody unless you are open to influence yourself." (37:55)
• Critical Conversation Defined: A moment inside a moment whose success or failure has an outsized impact on overall success (39:20).
• Approach: Instead of global fixes, focus on improving small but pivotal conversational moments—like greetings at a store (43:00) or first 15 seconds at home (46:33).
• Chick-fil-A’s “My pleasure”: A prime example of obsessing over one critical phrase (45:22).

8. Contextual Questions over Absolutes

• Don’t Speak in Absolutes: Phil illustrates how questions in absolutes ("What's your favorite city?") produce superficial answers, whereas context-specific, “messy” questions yield depth (49:31).
• Use Qualifiers: Asking “Where’s somewhere you’ve loved visiting?” brings richer stories than “What is your favorite place?”.
• Absolutes like always, never, biggest, or smallest shut down possibility and create friction (51:55).

9. Manipulation vs. Influence

• Intent is Everything: “Leadership is manipulation with good intent.” (54:26, Jeff)
• Phil’s Distinction: "Influence is something you do for somebody; manipulation is something you do to somebody." (55:59)
• The importance of bearing responsibility for the consequences of your influence.

10. Silence: When to Say Nothing

• The Second Mouse Gets the Cheese: Sometimes, the wisest move is to pause and respond with your second (better) thought, not the first (56:56; 57:55).
• Don’t argue with “idiots”; you only end up with another idiot (58:49).
• Sometimes silence is the best resolution—sometimes, not acting can have negative consequences if, for instance, your silence is interpreted as agreement or disinterest (60:23).

11. Framework for Difficult Conversations: ‘OFQ Past, Present, Future’

• A Practical Framework (63:17):
  • Opening (polite introduction)
  • Fact (mutually agreeable fact)
  • Question (easy-to-answer opening)
  • Then, ask about the past, discuss the present, inquire about the future
  • Use filters: “When was the last time…”, “Would it help if…”, “When would be a good time…”
• Live roleplay: Jeff and Phil simulate repositioning an employee, demonstrating this structure (64:31–71:25).

12. Final Rapid Fire – Business Opportunities & Impact Sentences

• Phil’s Business to Start in 30 Days: A retraining/placement agency for experienced professionals needing to reinvent careers mid-life (74:28).
• One Sentence to Leave an Impact:
  • Phil: "Stop counting your conversations and start making your conversations count." (77:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Everything that leaves your mouth, your keyboard, your pen is helping or hurting. Nothing is neutral. And if it is neutral, it was probably a waste." – Phil (02:20)
• "We do prep when we know we’re going to be judged for it... but does it mean that one-on-one with someone you care about doesn’t have the same level of impact?" – Phil (04:14)
• "We tell people what to do instead of teaching people how to think." – Phil (11:25)
• "People believe that confidence in conversation comes from no filler words... It actually comes from being able to hold attention." – Phil (13:30)
• "The miss on communication is thinking the job is to learn the lines. It isn’t. It’s to master the moment." – Phil (22:49)
• "There’s a difference between being right and getting the right result." – Phil (37:13)
• "Influence is something you do for somebody. Manipulation is something you do to somebody." – Phil (55:59)
• "The second mouse gets the cheese." – Phil (56:56)
• "Stop counting your conversations and start making your conversations count." – Phil (77:22)

Important Timestamps

• [02:00] – The role of language precision in solving diverse life and business problems
• [07:30] – Lazy questions, lazy answers: the importance of intentional questioning
• [13:00] – Jeff’s struggle and Phil’s framework for pausing and pacing in speech
• [23:30] – Why mastering the ‘ask’ moment matters more than the words in high-stakes situations
• [29:58] – How to open a compelling story—as yourself, for your audience
• [32:20] – Alternating story and point, setup and punchline for cadence in communication
• [37:24] – On being right vs. getting the right result in conflict
• [43:39] – OBSERVING critical moments for intentional improvement (Home Depot example)
• [51:55] – The pitfalls of speaking in absolutes, and how to invite richer answers
• [55:59] – Influence vs. manipulation: intent and responsibility
• [56:56] – “The second mouse gets the cheese”: why silence and patience can be powerful
• [63:17] – OFQ Past, Present, Future framework for difficult conversations
• [64:31–71:25] – Live roleplay: repositioning an employee using the framework
• [74:28] – Phil’s hypothetical business idea for helping professionals reinvent themselves
• [77:22] – Phil’s impact sentence on making conversations count

Final Takeaways

This episode is a must-listen (or read!) for entrepreneurs, leaders, parents, and anyone aiming to be more effective in everyday and high-stakes communication. Phil Jones delivers frameworks and examples for intentional speech that drive results—reminding us that precision, presence, and preparation are superpowers. Use every conversation as an opportunity to leave a positive mark.

Connect with Phil

• Instagram: @PhilemJonesuk
• Websites: philemjones.com, exactlywhattosay.com

Host: Jeff Dudan – Unemployable Podcast & Homefront Brands