On the Media: "Bullseye's Jesse Thorn on Surviving in the Podcasting Industry"

Air Date: November 26, 2025
Host: Brooke Gladstone
Guest: Jesse Thorn, founder of Maximum Fun and host of Bullseye

Episode Overview

This episode marks the 25th anniversary of "Bullseye," the public radio show and podcast founded and hosted by Jesse Thorn. Brooke Gladstone interviews Thorn about his remarkable journey through the ever-changing podcasting landscape, his philosophy on interviewing artists, the challenges and disasters of his early career, and why he converted Maximum Fun into a worker-owned cooperative. The conversation is filled with candid anecdotes about interviews both hilarious and harrowing, a deep dive into the values of independent media, and reflections on the future of public radio and podcasting.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humble Beginnings in College Radio

• Jesse's First Experience: Started at UC Santa Cruz’s station KZSC at age 19, expecting a professional setup but found "a lady in a bandana with a golden retriever in a bandana playing folk songs." [01:16]
• First Shows: Early shows involved comedy bits and experimental skits like conversing with a "space whale" and running quirky call-in contests. [01:42]
• Early Interviews: Landing Matt Besser, Matt Walsh (Upright Citizens Brigade), and Mike Nelson (Mystery Science Theater 3000) set the foundation for an interview-driven show. [02:28]

2. Disastrous Interviews and Lessons Learned

• Notable Disaster: A phone interview with Dustin Diamond (Screech from "Saved by the Bell") went awry—he refused to discuss anything but his standup comedy and insisted on telling highly offensive jokes. [02:58]
  • "Since then, I've worked really hard not to talk to anybody on my show who I don't recommend... I really try and say this is somebody whose work I really believe in, and that's why they're on the show." — Jesse Thorn [05:11]

3. Favorite & Memorable Interview Moments

• Mike Nelson's Improvised Comedy: A mishap with a missing faxed script led to Nelson improvising during a vintage “act-along” record bit, resulting in spontaneous comedic gold about mustard. [05:42–07:10]

  • "You need anything while I'm at the store? I'm gonna get mustard. You like the brown, don't you, Riley Hun?" — Mike Nelson (as recalled by Jesse Thorn) [07:05]

• Interviewing Bill Withers: Thorn shares a profound interview with the reclusive songwriter, who quit the business for reasons of autonomy and dignity. [07:12–14:33]

  • "He chose above all else, agency and autonomy. Because he grew up in a world where that was not available to him, so he chose what his life was. He defied that... That is a powerful life lesson." — Jesse Thorn [13:47]

• Michael K. Williams' Emotional Moment: Thorn recalls playing a music video track for Williams, which triggered tears as Williams remembered being homeless before his break. [17:55–18:56]

  • "That was my first dance job. That's the first time anybody ever hired me to do what I'm doing now... So I'm here today for the strength of that one song." — Michael K. Williams [18:19]

• Pedro Almodóvar and Chronic Migraines: Director Pedro Almodóvar opened up about his debilitating migraines and how they shaped his work—a rare, personal revelation. [19:49–21:27]

  • “This is so ridiculous to be a movie director, being photophobic. Because light is... Even if you want to shoot a sequence in darkness, the darkness is made by light.” — Pedro Almodóvar (via Jesse Thorn) [20:44]

4. Interview Philosophy: Talking About Art, Not Just Biography

• Thorn’s Approach: He emphasizes focusing on the art itself, not just artists’ backgrounds, countering the “easy story” temptation of biography.
  • Discusses Jean Grae’s yearning for technical conversations about her craft, not just her identity. [22:40–23:45]
  • "She said so many journalists have asked me, what's it like to be a woman in hip hop... but nothing about how she actually makes her art." — Jesse Thorn [23:45]

5. The Maximum Fun Worker Cooperative & Industry Survival

• Necessity of Community Ownership: Thorn explains the transition to a worker-owned cooperative to safeguard against venture capital-driven industry trends that favor monopoly and short-term scaling over sustainability. [24:20–28:31]

  • "Our model wasn't competitive with theirs. We were built for audience-supported sustainability and they wanted hegemonic control... I never wanted to do it." — Jesse Thorn [26:32]
  • Inspiration came in part from Thorn’s father-in-law, who worked in a worker-owned hardware store. [27:31]
  • "Worker ownership is... more sustainable, because workers are interested in sustainability. They're not interested in risk and infinite growth." — Jesse Thorn [28:33]

• Venture Capital Dynamics: Brooke and Jesse discuss the "inshittification" of digital platforms (per Cory Doctorow) and the dangers of model-shifting investment floods. [25:19–26:32]

6. Surviving & Thriving in Podcasting

• Why Jesse Lasted: Thorn attributes his longevity to modest expectations, responsible ambition, and dedication to work that matters—shaped by family values and economic reality. [29:23–30:52]
  • "My goal always was, what can I build that will sustain this work that I want to do? Not what can I build that will make me rich." — Jesse Thorn [30:27]
  • Also admits a "generalized terror at trying something new." [30:41]

7. On Public Media’s Future and Inclusivity

• Importance of Public Funding: Thorn champions public media as serving citizens, not customers, echoing Bill Moyers’ sentiment. [31:10]
  • "There needs to be a media ecosystem that exists outside of pure market forces... the values of public media apply to all Americans." — Jesse Thorn [31:16]
• Encouraging Diversity & Accessibility: Maximum Fun’s hiring stresses no degree required and staff diversity. [32:49]
  • Thorn advocates for a public media that truly reflects its community, not just privileged voices. Real audience connection is essential. [32:49–35:04]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On learning from disaster:
  "Since then, I've worked really hard not to talk to anybody on my show who I don't recommend... I really try and say this is somebody whose work I really believe in, and that's why they're on the show." — Jesse Thorn [05:11]

• On artistic autonomy:
  "What I want to know is what and why is it that we make art?... art is what makes us freaking human beings and not slugs." — Jesse Thorn [13:05]

• On inclusivity and responsibility:
  "I believe that you should build a train set in your basement if it gives you satisfaction. But ... imagine if you cared about your audience. Like, I do weird stuff. I'm not not weird. But I always knew that if I didn't get people to actually listen to and enjoy it, I would not eat." — Jesse Thorn [34:01]

Key Timestamps

• 00:54–01:42: Jesse’s first day at the college radio station; early format
• 02:58–05:38: The Dustin Diamond interview disaster & lessons
• 05:42–07:10: Mike Nelson improvisation with the "mustard" act-along skit
• 07:12–14:33: Interviewing Bill Withers, reflection on agency and autonomy
• 17:55–18:56: Michael K. Williams recalls his break and sheds tears
• 19:49–21:27: Pedro Almodóvar discusses chronic migraines and filmmaking
• 22:40–23:45: Jean Grae’s perspective on technical discussion of craft
• 24:20–29:05: Maximum Fun’s worker ownership model, resisting VC trends
• 29:23–30:52: Jesse’s philosophy on sustainable podcasting careers
• 31:10–32:37: Value and mission of public media
• 32:49–35:04: Challenges of inclusive practice and audience engagement

Conclusion

Jesse Thorn’s two and a half decades in radio and podcasting stand as a testament to creative resilience, a belief in the intrinsic value of art, and the quest for sustainable, inclusive media. His stories showcase the highs and lows of interviewing, the value of authenticity, and the need for business structures that serve creators and audiences over venture capital. Thorn’s journey—from a college radio comedy hour to a nationally respected host advocating for worker ownership—offers insights for anyone invested in the past, present, and future of independent media.