Erectile Disappointment

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Erectile Disappointment" – On the Media

Introduction

In the "Erectile Disappointment" episode of On the Media, WNYC Studios delves deep into the multifaceted impact of Viagra on individuals' intimate lives, relationships, and broader cultural understandings of erectile dysfunction (ED). Hosted by Brooke Gladstone and Micah Loewinger, the episode explores personal narratives, historical developments, and the societal implications of one of the most influential medications in recent history.

Personal Stories

Brandon's Struggle with ED

The episode begins with Brandon, a 27-year-old from Toronto, sharing his personal journey with erectile dysfunction. Brandon first recognized his difficulties in maintaining erections in his early twenties, coinciding with his coming out as gay. He describes the emotional turmoil and social anxiety that followed:

"I found myself very much avoiding sex... I realized you need to do something here." (01:19)

Brandon sought medical advice, leading to his prescription of Viagra. However, he felt misled by the drug's advertising, which portrayed effortless and exhilarating sexual experiences, contrasting sharply with his own inconsistent results:

"I found out that erectile drugs were very much a roll of the dice... sort of like a quick fix was not the reality." (02:36)

Despite taking Viagra and medication for depression and anxiety, Brandon continues to navigate the complexities of relationships, often framing interactions as low-stakes hookups to avoid disappointment and rejection.

Louise's Experience with Her Husband's ED

Louise, a 47-year-old from New England, provides insight into the impact of ED on a long-term marriage. Her husband struggled with erections even before adopting Viagra, and their journey highlights both the benefits and limitations of the medication:

"It's a reliable way to get an erection that doesn't involve hurt feelings if things don't work." (10:30)

After her husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer and underwent surgery that exacerbated his ED, the couple faced additional challenges. The availability of generic Viagra allowed her husband to take it more regularly, though spontaneity remained an issue. Ultimately, they opted for a penile implant to regain a semblance of spontaneity and intimacy:

"It's just part of the journey... it makes stuff a hell of a lot easier if you work together." (27:37)

Bob and Joanne's Long-Term Relationship

Bob and Joanne, now in their 70s and married for over 50 years, share their enduring relationship amidst Bob's struggles with ED. Initially dismissed by medical professionals as psychosomatic, Bob eventually found relief through Viagra, which significantly improved their sex life but introduced a regimented approach to intimacy. Frustrated by the loss of spontaneity, they pursued a penile implant, which transformed their interactions:

"It's an unbelievable relief... Now it's fun." (27:08)

Their story underscores the lengths couples may go to preserve their intimate connection, balancing medical interventions with emotional support.

Historical and Medical Context

The episode provides a historical overview of erectile dysfunction and the advent of Viagra. Prior to Viagra's approval by the FDA in 1998, ED was often stigmatized and misunderstood. Training materials from the early 1970s, such as "The Impotent Husband," reflect the limited understanding and lack of effective treatments available at the time.

Dr. David Rowland, a psychologist and expert in human sexuality, discusses the misconceptions surrounding ED in the pre-Viagra era:

"There was a general misconception... most men's problems are more likely to be biologically based." (21:07)

This perspective highlights the shift from viewing ED solely as a psychological issue to recognizing its biological underpinnings, paving the way for pharmacological interventions like Viagra.

Cultural Impact

Viagra's introduction not only transformed medical approaches to ED but also had profound cultural implications. The medication became a symbol of male sexual prowess, infiltrating pop culture and everyday conversations. Bob reflects on this cultural shift:

"Guys are starting to talk about it, to think about it instead of just accepting it." (30:13)

The widespread discussion around ED helped destigmatize the condition, making it a common topic in both medical settings and social discourse. However, the portrayal of Viagra in media often emphasized performance and pleasure, sometimes overshadowing the nuanced realities of those affected.

Economic and Accessibility Issues

Louise's account also touches on the economic barriers associated with ED treatments. Initially, the high cost of Viagra ($800 for a prescription) made it inaccessible for many couples, leading them to limit their use of the medication:

"We'd say, no. Can we have, like, one pill?" (09:16)

The introduction of generic Viagra significantly reduced costs, allowing broader access and more consistent use, which improved the quality of life for many couples dealing with ED.

Conclusions and Reflections

"Erectile Disappointment" underscores the profound impact of Viagra on individual lives, relationships, and societal perceptions of masculinity and intimacy. Through personal narratives and expert insights, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of how a single medication can influence various aspects of human experience, from personal identity to marital dynamics.

The stories of Brandon, Louise, Bob, and Joanne illustrate the enduring challenges and adaptations couples face in managing ED. Their experiences highlight the importance of open communication, medical advancements, and the ongoing need to address the emotional and psychological dimensions of sexual health.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Brandon on avoiding sex due to ED:
  "I found myself very much avoiding sex... you need to do something here." (01:40)

• Brandon feeling misled by Viagra ads:
  "I didn't find myself riding a ski do through the lake or mountain biking in the Forest." (02:44)

• Louise on the emotional burden of ED:
  "It absolutely just takes that emotional burden off of you." (10:40)

• Bob discussing the shift in clinical approaches to ED:
  "Psychosexual therapy has an important role, but it doesn't cure a problem that is biologically based." (21:15)

• Louise on the impact of her husband's prostate cancer treatment:
  "How do you criticize someone who had cancer and had like an important part of their anatomy removed?" (12:04)

Final Thoughts

"Erectile Disappointment" offers a nuanced exploration of erectile dysfunction and the transformative role of Viagra. By intertwining personal testimonies with historical and medical analyses, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of ED's complexities and the evolving landscape of its treatment. The candid discussions emphasize the importance of empathy, communication, and continual medical advancement in addressing intimate health challenges.

Transcript

[Anna Sale]

On the media is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Brandon]

In 1998, when Viagra was approved by the FDA, it suddenly opened up new sexual possibilities for people who had previously non. The drug also sparked a very earnest and very public conversation about erectile dysfunction, one that quickly veered toward late night punchlines. And yet, despite the millions of prescriptions written during its nearly 25 years of existence, for some Viagra did not prove to be the quick fix they hoped for death. Sex and Money, a podcast produced by WNYC, OTM's producing station, aired a compelling three part series about Viagra earlier this year and we'll be sharing them with you this month. Here's the host of the show, Anna. Sal.

[Anna Sale]

How old were you when you realized that getting erections was not something that was going to be automatic for you?

[Brandon]

It all kind of started, you know, early 20s, so I would have been probably about 22, 23, kind of struggling with that problem.

[Anna Sale]

This is Brandon. He's 27, lives in Toronto, and it was around the time that he came out as gay that he realized he had trouble getting and maintaining erections.

[Brandon]

I found myself very much avoiding sex, whether it would be leaving a date early so that wasn't a possibility, or making sure that we were going out somewhere so that we weren't coming back with that daunting expectation of, oh, are we, aren't we going to go into the bedroom and what is that going to look like? And am I going to, you know, be unable to, to get hard and to perform sexually? And I think at that point I realized to myself that you need to do something here.

[Anna Sale]

So Brandon talked to his doctor about it and his doctor prescribed him Viagra.

[Brandon]

I found out that erectile drugs were very much a roll of the dice. So for me it was, you might be able to get an erection and hold one or you might not and there's no way of knowing.

[Anna Sale]

Do you feel sort of like lied to by erectile dysfunction drugs about what kind of fix they offer?

[Brandon]

Yeah, actually initially I did you watch, you watch commercials all the time for Viagra and you see all these happy guys doing all these activities. That was not my experience. You know, I didn't find myself riding a ski do through the lake or mountain biking in the Forest. No, no, none of those things happened after I took these medications.

[Anna Sale]

I'm Anna Sale and this is hard. A series from death, Sex and money about Viagra.

[Louise]

It's much easier. They just have an erection.

[Anna Sale]

Erectile dysfunction.

[Brandon]

I remember thinking like, Christ, I've been cursed.

[Anna Sale]

And the ways we do and don't talk about sex, relationships and our bodies.

[Brandon]

I mean like if you're talking about if my dick broke like it did. Not at all.

[Anna Sale]

Brandon first emailed us three years ago. The subject line of his email was what happens when you're a 24 year old gay man with ED?

[Brandon]

The standard is, or the expectation is gay men have crazy wild sex all over the place. Whether that's, you know, out on the street, in nature, in the bushes or at home. Homosexual gay male culture is very sexually charged and it's everywhere and it's in your face.

[Anna Sale]

Were you able to talk with anyone about how your body wasn't responding the way you wanted it to when it came to sex about erectile dysfunction?

[Brandon]

No, no, I still, I'll be honest with you, really haven't. At the time I was dating, I had a boyfriend and I did sort of express that this was something that I was working through and that if he wanted to pursue a romantic relationship, this was the qualifier because it wasn't something that I could change or that I had control over in that moment.

[Anna Sale]

Do you remember how you explained it to him?

[Brandon]

Yep, very vividly. Three glasses of wine in and pacing around his townhouse. I just kind of came out like word vomit as I have something to tell you. I have erectile dysfunction. I'm not okay with this and I'm struggling immensely. If we're going to progress in any way, shape or form, you need to just be cool with this until I figure things out.

[Anna Sale]

Brandon is still figuring it out. In addition to taking Viagra, he takes medication for depression and anxiety, which can make it more difficult to get aroused. He and his boyfriend eventually broke up after about six months and Brandon got back on the apps. But he says he's had walls up when it comes to starting new relationships.

[Brandon]

You frame it as a one night stand or you frame it as a hookup, then you have nothing to lose. And, and if it's somebody who I'm, I'm looking for, you know, more of a relationship with or seeing again, again and again could be a potential deal breaker for them.

[Anna Sale]

And for you. When you think about what kind of relationships you want to have in your romantic life, do you wish at this point in your life that you could have a more long term relationship with one person.

[Brandon]

Yeah, I would definitely prefer, you know, something stable and long term, hopefully maybe one day. But I think, you know, this, this over sexualized culture and it doesn't say anything about having sex and not being able to get an erection is okay. It's very much big heartaches flying everywhere.

[Anna Sale]

According to a survey from Johns Hopkins In 2007, more than 18 million men in the US are affected by erectile dysfunction. ED can be caused by many different things. Physical issues like high cholesterol and diabetes and psychological ones like stress and depression. Sometimes a combination of both. And despite how common it is, the reality of ED can lead to a lot of shame and disappointment for people affected by ED and their partners.

[Brandon]

There is that sort of idea that if you're in your early 20s, you're going to be able to get hard fast and keep it when it doesn't work.

[Anna Sale]

You challenge all aspects of your ego, your self worth.

[Brandon]

You don't flirt in the same way, you don't go on dates in the same way.

[Louise]

I got really bored, big hurt feelings and big feelings of rejection.

[Brandon]

We were having sex and she just said, stop me. And she goes, you're just not brave enough.

[Anna Sale]

The introduction of Viagra almost 25 years ago opened up new possibilities for people affected by ed. It blew open the conversation about it and it reinforced a very specific idea of what successful sex is. A general that I saw said that when he wanted erection, he wanted an immediate rock hard erection. And I said, you know, it's not like you're saluting. So we are doing a three part series telling the pretty wild story of how Viagra came to be and how it's led to some big questions about performance and pleasure. But to start, we're gonna focus in on people's intimate lives and relationships that have been impacted by both erectile dysfunction and Viagra in ways that the cheeky public conversation about the drug has never quite captured.

[Louise]

People joke about these medications and there's just so many memes and so much pop culture reference in a joking manner. And if you think about the medication is for them in the plural, it's for the couple, it's for the marriage, the relationship, the partnership. It isn't just about a guy getting a boner.

[Anna Sale]

A woman we're calling Louise is 47 and lives in New England. She's been with her husband for more than 20 years.

[Louise]

It was never easy for him, even from the beginning, to get erections. He wasn't the kind of guy who just had them all the time.

[Anna Sale]

After Viagra became available in 1998, Luis's husband got a prescription, and for him, the drug worked well, but their insurance didn't cover it.

[Louise]

When these pills first came out, you know, you'd get a prescription, you'd go to pick it up, it'd be $800, and we'd say, no. Can we have, like, one pill?

[Anna Sale]

Huh?

[Joanne]

You know?

[Anna Sale]

Yeah.

[Louise]

So you kind of think about, like, how much is it really worth it to you?

[Anna Sale]

And when he had the option of taking Viagra, how did it work when you would choose for him to take it, to have time together?

[Louise]

I think it was never sort of an explicit conversation, like a commercial. Why don't you take Viagra? You know, it was sort of like one of us would be hinting, like, hey, you wanna. You know, and then he would take it. And one of the side effects of these medications is your nose gets really stuffy. And that's how I could tell that he had taken it.

[Anna Sale]

That's the code.

[Louise]

Yeah. Like, your nose gets really stuffy, and I can hear him, like, you know, And I would know he had taken it.

[Anna Sale]

I've never heard that before. That is so interesting. It's like a mating call.

[Louise]

It's very obvious.

[Anna Sale]

Huh. And from your point of view, your experience when he took Viagra, what changed?

[Louise]

It's a reliable way to get an erection that doesn't involve hurt feelings if things don't work.

[Anna Sale]

Oh, wait. Tell. Tell me why you say it like that.

[Louise]

Because if your spouse or your partner suffers from ED and you're trying to have sex and they can't get an erection, that's devastating for them. It's just like, this whole emotional thing. And then, of course, you want to avoid it so you don't try to do that again. It's scary for the partner of someone who has ED to initiate or to try, because there's always this risk that it's not going to work, and then their feelings are hurt, and then they're just upset and feel like they've let you down, and then you feel like a jerk for pressuring them. So when you have these kind of medications, it's kind of just takes that emotional burden off of you. Mm.

[Anna Sale]

And also gives you a little space to have your own needs and desires.

[Louise]

Yeah. It definitely makes it so that you don't feel like a bad person asking for sex. You know, and especially now that my husband has had cancer, like, it's. There's. It's not his fault. And I would feel like such an asshole if, you know, I was in any way criticizing his performance. Because how do you criticize someone who had cancer and had like an important part of their anatomy removed?

[Anna Sale]

Louise's husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer a few years ago. He was in his late 40s at the time, and as part of his treatment, he had his prostate removed. Prostate surgery often impacts nerves in the area. For Luis's husband, it made his ED even worse. And Viagra worked less reliably for him. According to Johns Hopkins, nearly everyone who has prostate cancer treatment has some form of erectile dysfunction afterward.

[Louise]

I don't think there are a lot of men who are really comfortable talking about this. And I know I've been in support groups for people who are spouses of prostate cancer survivors. No. And there's a lot of women out there suffering, you know, with the same issue where they have a really hard time talking about it. And some people will find sex outside of the marriage, Some people will just keep trying. Some people will settle for a sexless marriage. It's really complicated.

[Anna Sale]

In the support group for prostate cancer survivor partners, were you able to talk about how intimacy works in your marriage?

[Louise]

I, I did post once and I was kind of told, well, there's lots of other ways to have sex. You should, you know, buy some sex toys. You know, really what I thought was kind of a tone deaf response and I really didn't engage after that and I, I left that group. The reality is most prostate sick cancer survivor wives are not in their 40s. For someone to be diagnosed at his age is very unusual. I mean, that's a really daunting thing. To be 43 years old and think about never having sex again your entire life.

[Anna Sale]

Do you think about that? Do you think that's a possibility for you?

[Louise]

It definitely has been a thought in my mind. It has definitely been a possibility for me. And then, you know, sometimes I think, well, you know, there's Tinder, but I live in a really small town in a really small state and everybody knows me. There's just no way I could do something like that.

[Anna Sale]

Uh huh. But the idea of having a partner outside the marriage, if it was in a way that you wouldn't get caught socially, has an appeal.

[Louise]

I would if my husband never knew because I would never want to hurt his feelings. And I am not looking for a boyfriend, you know, purely sex. Sure. If he didn't know about it, if it didn't have any possibility of just devastating him.

[Anna Sale]

Sure. Do you have that now that we're talking about it. Do you have that sense of like, you know, just like that craving? Not with intimacy with your husband, but just a craving for sex?

[Louise]

I mean, it comes and goes. I would say a couple of glasses of Aldi wine. Sure.

[Anna Sale]

Did you say Aldi wine? Like Al Di the grocery store Aldi.

[Louise]

Winking Owl. Do you not know the winking owl? $2.49 for a beautiful bottle of Pinot Grigiou.

[Anna Sale]

Come. One more thing. Louise told me since generic Viagra became available a few years ago, her husband has been able to take it more regularly because the cost is lower.

[Louise]

It actually is working much better. And he actually told me the other day that he woke up in the middle of the night with a spontaneous erection, which hasn't happened in years.

[Joanne]

Coming up, I would say if you love him and you keep working together, you will eventually find what works for you.

[Anna Sale]

We hear from a couple for whom Viagra was just one solution of many as they tried to solve a sexual problem together.

[Bob]

One of your topics is death. Okay. And let's enjoy the journey until we get there, because we're all going to get there.

[Brooke Gladstone]

OnTheMedia is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Since Donald Trump reassumed office, over 200 lawsuits have been filed against his administration. Firings, tariffs, immigration, climate policy. It's hard to keep track of and even harder to understand. I'm former U.S. attorney Preet Bharara, and on my podcast Stay tuned with Preet, I'm joined by experts to break down complex legal stories and cut through the noise of this administration. It may feel tempting to tune out, but now more than ever, we need to stay engaged. Search and follow Stay tuned with Preet wherever you listen.

[Anna Sale]

This is hard A series from Death, Sex and Money. I'm Anna Sale. Erectile dysfunction is not a new problem. It was referenced by the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, the Old Testament, and the oldest known text in Chinese medicine. But a lot has changed in the way ed has been addressed in just the last few decades. For starters, what we call it has changed. In 1992, the National Institutes of Health officially recommended that the term erectile dysfunction be used. That was a big shift from just two decades earlier, when this training film was made for medical students called the Impotent Husband.

[Ira Plato]

We are about to observe a conjoint marriage counseling session with a middle aged couple. The problem presented by Mr. And Mrs. Palmer is one of the most frequent encountered by physicians and counselors that Sex.

[Anna Sale]

And Money producer Katie Bishop is here with me. She dug up this video in the course of her research.

[Katie Bishop]

I did. I found this on the National Institutes of Health website in their digital library. And just to paint a picture here, we're seeing a soundstage where there's a marriage counselor sitting across from a couple husband and wife. And he looks like he's just come from the office. He's wearing a suit, she's wearing kind of a nice dress. She's chain smoking throughout the entire session. And they've come in together to talk with this marriage counselor because a few weeks prior they'd had a failed attempt at having sex. And ever since they've been having difficulties.

[Ira Plato]

Now, these days. Let's suppose you were to make a romantic advance tonight. What would go on in your mind? You kind of failure. Don't want to touch it with a do not pass go.

[Joanne]

He doesn't even want to try anymore.

[Ira Plato]

Well, you know, why doesn't he want to try anymore? That's because it's, you know. You know, you fail so many times and then it's no longer worth trying. But I've never held that up to you. Well, I didn't say. Have I. I didn't say you did. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the fact that in my feelings, my mind, well, the whole thing is totally. The whole situation is embarrassing.

[Katie Bishop]

Right?

[Ira Plato]

I mean, you know, it's a. I mean, let's face it, I can't cut the mustard, you know, and that's what we're really, you know, talking about here.

[Katie Bishop]

So it's unclear to me if these are actors or an actual couple. But I really believe this bickering. I think it's legit. And, you know, the couple keeps talking together throughout the film. And at the end, the marriage counselor really helps them to talk to each other about what's been going on. And at the end, they're able to be a little less angry at each other.

[Ira Plato]

How do you feel now about coming in? Is that he. Well, thank you, Donnie. It's a little better now, you know, but you talk with each other and it helps, right? Yeah. So that's my commercial. Okay. Sold.

[Joanne]

Thank you.

[Katie Bishop]

But you know, what I thought was really interesting about this film is back in the 1970s, there just was not much understanding about how erections worked and why they stopped working.

[Dr. David Rowland]

Many people came in for treatment, but the GP or the urologist really didn't have tools or answers to address problems with erectile dysfunction.

[Katie Bishop]

So I called up Dr. David Rowland. He's an expert in human sexuality. He's also a psychologist and he started his career back in the 1970s, right around the time when this film was made.

[Dr. David Rowland]

There was a general misconception, I think, that most of men's erectile dysfunction was created because of their anxiety. But most men's problems, at least insofar as we suspect today, most men's problems are more likely to be biologically based.

[Katie Bishop]

So if the husband in this film had had some sort of underlying medical condition going on, there just wasn't a lot that doctors could do for him.

[Dr. David Rowland]

Psychosexual therapy has an important role, but it doesn't cure a problem that that is biologically based. So if you think of the penis as a piece of equipment and the equipment doesn't work, you need to have something that fixes the equipment.

[Bob]

I think back then it was kind of looked upon as, yeah, okay, you're getting older and this is going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it type thing, you know, that's, that's life guy.

[Anna Sale]

In the course of her research, Katie also met Bob. She found him on a website called Frank Talk. It's an online forum for people experiencing ed. Bob was in his early 50s when he first noticed something was different in the bedroom. It was the early 90s, before Viagra.

[Bob]

Straight out, the erections wouldn't last. And that became kind of a frustration. Yes, we're getting older, but why is this happening Within a year or so? That's when I started going to urologist, trying to find out what was wrong. Okay. The first urologist led toward being psychosomatic. In other words, it was all in my head and believe me, it was not.

[Anna Sale]

I called up Bob and his wife Joanne at their home in Omaha. They're now in their 70s and they've been married for more than 50 years. When Bob first started experiencing ED, they were recent empty nesters.

[Joanne]

Well, as soon as we got rid of the two animals.

[Anna Sale]

You mean your kids?

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Joanne]

As soon as we pawned them off on others, it was okay with us. But there was that frustration of Bob couldn't get it up and stay. That was the big thing. So you know how much I can't yell at him about it. It's not something yelling would do. And truthfully he would always say I feel so bad that you're not getting anything out of this. Well, if you love the guy, you want to help him.

[Anna Sale]

For a while, both Bob and Joanne felt like there wasn't much they could do. But then in the mid-90s, Bob started seeing a different doctor.

[Bob]

He was younger and basically said, no, there's other options that you have that will assist. Okay, not necessarily. Cure it of Viagra was just in its second phase studies. And he led me to one of the trials and it's like, hey, you know, if I get a placebo, nothing's going to happen and if I get the real drug, maybe something will happen and maybe it will help somebody else. So it was an interesting start to the journey.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah. And did you notice any change in your erections?

[Bob]

Yes, absolutely.

[Anna Sale]

When you realized that this drug was one that could help you, how did it change your sex life?

[Bob]

Oh, it greatly improved in most all respects with the exception of spontaneity.

[Joanne]

Yeah.

[Bob]

And even with intimacy and touching and, and, you know, closeness, it would, it would take a while. So it kind of, it kind of led away from, from the, the timing factor.

[Anna Sale]

It led more to scheduling.

[Bob]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'm going to put you on the calendar for next Thursday.

[Louise]

Uh huh.

[Bob]

Three o' clock.

[Anna Sale]

Bob took Viagra and eventually other ED drugs like Cialis and Levitra for about seven years. But over time, Bob says the drugs lost their effectiveness.

[Bob]

They start out at 25 milligrams and you're up to 50 milligrams, then you're up to 100 milligrams and the doctor says, you know, you can take 100 and you can split 100 into 50s, take 150. And that was when it's like, okay, what other alternatives do we have?

[Anna Sale]

Was there a time after you started taking Viagra, after those drugs, after a series of drugs stopped working as well for you, when you had a conversation between you two that maybe intimacy is really important to us, touch is really important to us as a couple, but maybe the sex life we used to have, we're just not going to have anymore in the same way.

[Joanne]

No, we never reached that point. No, no. It's because the fact of the one doctor who said, there's so much out there, there's a pump, there's different things that can be done.

[Anna Sale]

Bob and Joanne tried a lot of different interventions. And then three years ago, Bob decided to get a penile implant. It's seen as a last resort for ED patients and involves surgically putting a device inside the penis that can make it firm. And, Bob, why were you. Why did you want this surgery? What made you ready for deciding to take this step to do an invasive procedure?

[Bob]

Spontaneity.

[Anna Sale]

Mm.

[Joanne]

No drugs.

[Bob]

There's no drugs involved. There's no restriction rings. There's. There's no pellets that you put. You don't want to know where. You know, it's. Yeah, it's just. It is an unbelievable relief. I think I'll speak for myself, for me to be able. She says, hey, you know, how about 1:30 today? And it's like, okay, I can do that.

[Brandon]

I can do that.

[Anna Sale]

Is that one of the lines that you use? Joanne, how about 1:30 today?

[Joanne]

Well, here's the funny part about this. We are now back on schedules twice a week. We decided, well, Mondays and Fridays would work, but until hockey season began, Fridays are kind of difficult at our age to get set up for Friday afternoon and then leave at 6 for a hockey game for three hours. But it's. It's to the point of. Yes, there's spontaneity. It depends on. Okay, do the grandkids need us? You know, we try to do it twice a week. Right now we got. Let's see, it was Tuesday of this week. Oh, and on my birthday. A week ago. Yes. We time that. Yes, a week ago. Yes. So, but if.

[Bob]

If she had said no at any point.

[Joanne]

Yeah.

[Bob]

Prior to that surgery, I would have never done it, period. End of state.

[Joanne]

The night before the surgery, he turns to me and said, number one, are you with me for future sex? Are you with me for the surgery? And I said yes on both.

[Bob]

Yeah.

[Joanne]

Because it's just part of the journey.

[Bob]

It makes stuff a hell of a lot easier if you work together. And that's where we're at right now. And it makes it fun.

[Joanne]

You don't have problems. Dale Carnegie says you have situations you work through. And that work through is what we do in this marriage.

[Anna Sale]

Okay, I love that quote. But a quick fact check here. We actually couldn't find evidence that Dale Carnegie actually said those words. We asked Joanne about it, and she said that Bob took a Dale Carnegie sales workshop in the 80s and told us she might just be remembering the gist of one of his textbooks. At any rate, they had that idea in their back pocket. When Bob entered the Viagra trials in the 90s. You got to sample Viagra before it was out in the wide, broad marketplace and see how it would affect your intimate life. And then it becomes this cultural phenomenon where it's all anybody's talking about all of a sudden, erectile dysfunction is a term that people know.

[Bob]

Yes.

[Anna Sale]

What did you make of that? All of a sudden this thing that had been secret within your, within your bedroom was now something that was much more open in the culture.

[Bob]

Well, from a cultural standpoint, of course, we were very much into nascar and of course, you know, there was one driver that had a whole car that had, you know, the blue pill on it. You know, I kind of took it as well. It's an awakening, okay. And guys are starting to, to talk about it, to think about it instead of just accepting it. They, they were finally talking to their doctors. Like the old commercial, you know. Talk to your doctor about Viagra today.

[Louise]

To learn more, race over to viagra.com.

[Anna Sale]

On the next episode of Hard. We're going back to that time when Viagra entered the public consciousness.

[Joanne]

Viagra was going to be the first drug that was going to put Pfizer on the map.

[Anna Sale]

Viagra was approved by the FDA in 1998, just a year after the FDA started allowing prescription drug companies to market directly to consumers.

[Joanne]

You want better sex? Viagra is a way to have better sex.

[Brandon]

Our phones did not stop ringing.

[Louise]

They come to the urologist.

[Joanne]

They heard the urologist might have something.

[Anna Sale]

That might help them. In the next episode we talk about the collision of medicine, science, money and marketing that created a Viagra explosion.

[Ira Plato]

He basically said, you've wasted money for eight years, David.

[Joanne]

Was this gonna be so offensive to people?

[Bob]

It was exciting, I'd have to say.

[Anna Sale]

He says the words oh hell in a British sort of accent and takes.

[Bob]

His pants down in front of frickin everybody.

[Anna Sale]

And he had this massive erection. This series was conceived, reported and produced by Katie Bishop. The original music in this series was composed by our engineer Andrew Dunn, with additional help from Rachel Hahn. The rest of our team includes AFI Yellow Duke and Emily Bottin. Special thanks to Caitlin Pierce and Alex Barron. Our intern is Gabriella Santana. I'm Anna Sale and this is Death, Sex and money from wnyc.

[Brandon]

Thanks for listening to this week's midweek podcast. In the week's big show out on Friday, we'll be following the rise of the so called parental rights groups in America. See you then. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I'm Ira Plato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, Climate change Genetic engineering, Childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship. Wnyc. Org.