Goodnight And Goodluck 20 Years Later

Summary

---

On the Media: Goodnight And Goodluck 20 Years Later

Originally released: September 24, 2025
Host: Brooke Gladstone (with possible participation of Bob Garfield)
Guests: Joe and Shirley Wirshba, former CBS journalists depicted in “Good Night, and Good Luck”

---

Episode Overview

This episode marks the 20th anniversary of the film “Good Night, and Good Luck,” which dramatizes CBS News’ iconic confrontation with McCarthyism led by Edward R. Murrow in the 1950s. As CBS faces fresh political upheaval, the conversation explores the reality behind the film, the atmosphere of newsrooms in Murrow’s era, and questions of courage, objectivity, and institutional pressures in broadcast journalism. Hosts revisit a 2005 interview with Joe and Shirley Wirshba (played in the film by Robert Downey Jr. and Patricia Clarkson), who share firsthand insights about Murrow, Fred Friendly, William Paley, and living through history as it was made.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Landmark Film and Its Authenticity

• The hosts reflect on the ongoing relevance of “Good Night, and Good Luck,” especially as CBS faces politically motivated changes in leadership.
• Shirley and Joe Wirshba marvel at the film’s authenticity, especially David Strathairn’s portrayal of Murrow:
  • “If you closed your eyes during the first read through of the script... I thought I was hearing Morrow.” — Shirley (02:17)
  • Joe describes recognizing Murrow from an actor’s silhouette and presence, not just mannerisms:
    “He didn’t try to imitate Murrow, he exuded Murrow.” (02:38)

2. Murrow, Friendly, and Newsroom Realities

• George Clooney’s Fred Friendly is remembered as Murrow’s “enforcer,” not merely a producer:
  • “If anybody ever terrorized people, it was Fred.” — Joe (03:09)
  • Shirley notes: “I think he wanted Murrow to have all the attention.” (03:26)
• The film’s depiction of smoke-filled newsrooms is entirely accurate:
  • “Everybody smoked in those days. I smoked.” — Shirley (04:20)
  • Joe shares vivid anecdotes of Murrow’s legendary smoking habit (up to four packs a day). (04:23–04:45)
  • Even the actors had to smoke for their roles, except Clooney (since the real Fred Friendly didn’t smoke). (04:54)

3. Office Politics and Secret Marriages at CBS

• The network banned relatives from working together, so Joe and Shirley’s marriage remained secret:
  • “You weren’t allowed to be in the company if you had a relative there... certainly you couldn’t be married.” — Shirley (05:32)
  • “That was supposed to be nepotism at $45 a week. And it was a big word to spread over $45.” — Joe (05:43)
  • Shirley wore her wedding ring on a chain, hidden by a high neck blouse. (06:13)

4. William Paley and Network Accountability

• William Paley, CBS founder, is depicted as both a supporter and an imposing force:
  • “Bill Paley created the Columbia Broadcasting System... Murrow was his boy and his friend... It was a rarity for anybody to be Bill Paley’s friend who wasn’t a member of the family.” — Joe (06:39)
• Paley’s ultimate constraint was financial—the need to satisfy shareholders after going public, a move Shirley says he regretted (08:26–08:46).

5. Moral Courage and the Cost of Dissent

• The risks taken by Murrow and his team in confronting McCarthy are detailed:
  • “Going on the air with an attack on McCarthy... could lead to closing down the whole news business.” — Joe (07:07)
  • Joe recalls Murrow’s warning: “No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices.” (08:15)
• The film adds a powerful, but fictional, marital exchange of doubt and responsibility:
  • “Not so much were we wrong, but were we doing the right thing because we grew up in this atmosphere of you don’t take sides, you just present the news straight… You got to go with this program or else what happens to the country?” — Shirley (09:11)
  • The team even offered McCarthy equal time in the spirit of fairness.

6. Objectivity and Advocacy in Journalism

• The panel questions today’s standards for anchor impartiality versus Murrow’s visible stances:
  • “If you look at the film, Murrow wasn’t the very model of the objective opinion-free anchor. His legend is built on when he took a stand. Nowadays, that would be seen as questionable journalism.” — Host (09:46)
  • “On rare occasions, if someone you respect who has been impartial, if he or she should say, there is only one side here, I will give it to you. And then it’s up to your audience to make the decision.” — Shirley (10:13)
• Joe emphasizes Murrow’s hesitation: “Murrow agonized over what right did he have to use the whole power of a network to go against one man?” (10:45)

7. Notable Murrow Quotes and Historical Perspective

Murrow’s eloquence is preserved and recalled throughout:

• “We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.” (02:25)
• On the limits of investigation versus persecution, quoting Shakespeare:
  “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves... the junior senator from Wisconsin has stepped over [the line] repeatedly.” (11:06)
• Shirley’s personal anecdote underscores the weight of the moment:
  • After the McCarthy broadcast she tells Murrow, “If it’s a boy, I’m going to name him after you.” Murrow replies, “Do you think it was worth it?” She answers, “It has to be.” (11:38)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Authenticity (02:17):
  Shirley Wirshba: “If you closed your eyes during the first read through of the script... I thought I was hearing Morrow.”

• On Fred Friendly (03:09):
  Joe Wirshba: “If anybody ever terrorized people, it was Fred.”

• On Newsroom Smoking (04:20):
  Shirley Wirshba: “Everybody smoked in those days. I smoked.”

• On CBS Nepotism Policy (05:43):
  Joe Wirshba: “That was supposed to be nepotism at $45 a week. And it was a big word to spread over $45.”

• On Murrow’s Dilemma (10:45):
  Joe Wirshba: “Murrow agonized over what right did he have to use the whole power of a network to go against one man?”

• On Taking a Stand (10:13):
  Shirley Wirshba: “On rare occasions, if someone you respect who has been impartial... should say, there is only one side here, I will give it to you. And then it’s up to your audience to make the decision.”

• On Personal Sacrifice (11:38):
  Shirley Wirshba: “If it’s a boy, I’m going to name him after you.”
  Murrow: “Do you think it was worth it?”
  Shirley: “It has to be.”

• On Living Their Work (12:00):
  Host: “So you guys didn’t take your work home?”
  Shirley: “We lived our work.”

---

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Film’s Accuracy & Murrow Portrayal: 02:17 – 02:58
• Newsroom Life & Smoking Culture: 04:15 – 04:54
• CBS’s Marriage Policy: 05:19 – 06:22
• William Paley’s Influence & Financial Pressures: 06:22 – 08:46
• Moral Dilemmas and Protecting Truth: 08:46 – 10:45
• Murrow’s Reflections & Legacy: 10:45 – 12:04

---

Tone & Language

The episode is conversational, insightful, and vivid, blending nostalgia with hard-edged realism. Joe and Shirley’s warmth and candor illuminate both the camaraderie and tension of their CBS years. The hosts guide the discussion with skepticism and reverence, drawing resonant parallels between past and present threats to press integrity.

---

Transcript

[Michael Oinger]

On the Media is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Hey, you're listening to the on the Media midweek podcast. I'm Michael Oinger. As we've talked about in recent episodes of the show, there are big things happening over at CBS News. The network was purchased by a company controlled by the Trump friendly Ellison family, who quickly installed an ombudsman who seems likely to tow a politically right leaning line and who are considering hiring substack flamethrower Barry Weiss as head of the news division. It's all a far cry from the network's heyday, depicted in the 2005 movie Good Night and Good Luck, which tells the story of Edward R. Murrow's heroic stand against McCarthyism. Joe and Shirley Wirshba were at CBS then. In the movie they're played by Robert Downey Jr. And Patricia Clarkson. It was Joe who in 1953 interviewed Lt. Radulovich, the man kicked out of the Air Force Reserve. The because his father, an immigrant from Serbia, subscribed to foreign newspapers and because his sister supported liberal causes. The New York Times noted that it was the first salvo fired by the network against Senator Joe McCarthy. Brooks spoke to Joe and Shirley about the film when it was released 20 years ago and about the bygone days of smoke filled newsrooms and courage on the airwaves.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

Joe, Shirley, welcome to the show.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Thank you for having us.

[Joe Wirshba]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

So this is one evocative film. It's shot in black and white. And of course, in early 1954, McCarthy's hearings of accused subversives were broadcast. They were the first ever televised hearings and they were used in the film. So McCarthy essentially plays himself. Murrow, of course, couldn't be depicted by recycling old TV footage, so they have an actor to play him. You knew Murrow. How accurately do you think he was depicted in the film?

[Shirley Wirshba]

If you closed your eyes during the first read through of the script. I did close my eyes and I thought I was hearing Morrow.

[Edward R. Murrow (voice actor or quoted)]

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.

[Shirley Wirshba]

It was unbelievable.

[Joe Wirshba]

I'll tell you how unbelievable it was. When I first saw Strathairn, I saw him from the back of his head. And I said, my God, it's Murrow's head. And the minute he opened his mouth and looked towards us it was Murrow all over again. He didn't try to imitate Murrow, he exuded Murrow.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

George Clooney plays the legendary Fred Friendly as a relatively quiet, wry person. He was Murrow's producer. He also functioned, in some degree, it seems, as his heat shield.

[Joe Wirshba]

Fred Friendly was the enforcer. Murrow came up with what he wanted to do with the line that he was taking and Fred saw to it that all the stuff that we had was edited with that in mind. If anybody ever terrorized people, it was Fred.

[Shirley Wirshba]

I think he wanted Murrow to have all of the attention.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

One thing I noticed was that during Murrow's broadcasts we see Fred Findlay literally crouched at his feet obscured partly by his desk. And he cued Murrow by tapping a pen on Murrow's knee. And he lit Murrow's cigarettes during the tape segments speaking quietly, still crouched there. Was that what it was really like?

[Shirley Wirshba]

Yes, exactly. That was the way he cued Murrow to start because they were in very, very tight quarters. As a matter of fact, some of the people who saw a screening of it people like Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather and Morley Safer and Walter Cronkite they said they have never seen a newsroom film that was as authentic as this.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

Cigarette smoke seems to fill nearly every frame mostly coming from Murrow's cigarette.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Everybody smoked in those days. I smoked.

[Joe Wirshba]

Joe smoked at a time when we went to Korea to cover the Korean War in 52. Ed and I shared a room and at 4:30 in the morning I would hear zip. And that was Murrow starting his morning with a cigarette. He was doing a minimum of two packs a day but I think he went up to four packs a day.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Yeah, he always had a cigarette.

[Joe Wirshba]

He just couldn't be talked out of it until he developed lung disease later on.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

And he died of lung cancer in 1964.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Yes, he did. The interesting thing about the crew of actors in the scene is that I don't think any of them smoked. And here they had to, but I know they were not inhaling, they were just bubbing it out. And when George Clooney learned from Ruth Friendly that Fred Friendly had never smoked he was so relieved because he's not a smoker. He didn't have to smoke, but everybody else did.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

I want to move to the political environment now and I'm talking about politics with a big P and politics With a small P. In terms of office politics, there was a rule that professional colleagues at CBS weren't allowed to marry.

[Shirley Wirshba]

You weren't allowed to be in the company if you had a relative there, whether it was a cousin, an uncle, a sister and certainly you couldn't be married.

[Joe Wirshba]

Well, what's a fancy word for that kind of a situation?

[Shirley Wirshba]

Nepotism.

[Joe Wirshba]

Well, that was supposed to be nepotism at $45 a week. And it was a big word to spread over $45.

[Shirley Wirshba]

We knew that one of us would have to quit. As a matter of fact, the boss at the time said he thought that we ought to get married. And I said, well, we would, except I don't want to quit working. So he said, well, don't tell anybody about it. I'll try to clear it with personnel. Which he never did. So we had to keep it a secret.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

So did you really take off your wedding rings before you went to work?

[Shirley Wirshba]

Absolutely. Joe actually didn't wear one, but I put it on a gold chain around my neck and I always had high neck blouses.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

Let me move on to William Paley. He ran the CBS network for what, about 50 years?

[Shirley Wirshba]

Well, he started it.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

He's depicted by Frank Langella as a figure who is as huge and immovable as the Washington Monument. What role did he play in the real life drama?

[Joe Wirshba]

Bill Paley created the Columbia Broadcasting System. He backed the best news and news people that he could find. Murrow was his boy and his friend and his friend. It was a rarity for anybody to be Bill Paley's friend who wasn't a member of the family.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

Okay, but we see in the film rather testy exchange between Murrow and Paley.

[Joe Wirshba]

It got to that stage only because Murrow and Friendly were not going to quit cold on the stories that they did. Paley knew that they weren't going to quit. And I thought that it was a fair shake that somebody should know that. Going on the air with an attack on McCarthy. This was breaking the rule which Paley and Murrow themselves had set up which could lead to closing down the whole news business.

[Edward R. Murrow (voice actor or quoted)]

Somebody's going to go down. Have you checked your fax? Are you sure you're on safe ground? Bill, it's time. Show our cards.

[Joe Wirshba]

My cards. You lose.

[Edward R. Murrow (voice actor or quoted)]

What happens? Five guys find themselves out of work. I'm responsible for a hell of a lot more than five goddamn reporters.

[Joe Wirshba]

Let it go. You could tell that a lot of the people were worried stiff about what the consequences of this program would be. And Moreau Caught and said terror is right here in this room. And then he followed up with another line which unfortunately is not in the script, but I remember it and I didn't, Couldn't have made it up myself. No one man can terrorize a whole nation unless we are all his accomplices.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

You know, in the end, it wasn't politics but bottom line pressures that compelled Paley to act and essentially push Murrow off of his primetime perch.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Well, you know Paley, I think he once said his sorriest day was when he went public with the company because then he had to answer to the economic pressures that would come from shareholders. You had to turn a profit. I think Paley, given his druthers, would have gone along with Murrow all the way.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

You know, you two have in the film an exchange in bed one night. It's of such critical dramatic significance I kind of thought it was added by the writers. Joe, you sort of museum what if we, we, meaning Murrow's boys are wrong. What if there are communists out there poised to take down our government? And you said, what if we're protecting the wrong people? Did that exchange happen?

[Shirley Wirshba]

Not really. We talked about, not so much were we wrong, but were we doing the right thing because we grew up in this atmosphere of you don't take sides, you just present the news straight. That was the discussion that Joe and I used to have. Should we break with it? And I can remember that thought in particular. You've got to do it. You got to go with this program or else what happens to the country? Also, he did offer McCarthy equal time to answer.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

Some say that the wise, deadpan news anchor of old is passing out of time. Some of them see this as the model of the Murrow tradition. But actually, if you look at the film, Murrow wasn't the very model of the objective opinion free anchor. His legend is built on when he took a stand. Nowadays, that would be seen as questionable journalism. And I don't think he'd last long in the anchor chair.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Well, he wouldn't be doing it every night or every week. It was on very, very special occasions. If you recall, Walter Cronkite stepped out behind wall of impartiality when he said the Vietnam War was unwinnable. On rare occasions, if someone you respect who has been impartial, if he or she should say, there is only one side here, I will give it to you. And then it's up to your audience to make the decision.

[Joe Wirshba]

I must tell you that Murrow agonized over what right did he have to use the whole power of a network to go against one man? And the answer to that is he that man is strong enough to take care of himself. And that's where that line from Shakespeare comes in.

[Edward R. Murrow (voice actor or quoted)]

Earlier, the Senator asked, upon what meat does this our Caesar feed? Had he looked three lines earlier in Shakespeare's Caesar, he would have found this line, which is not altogether inappropriate. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. No one familiar with the history of this country can deny that congressional committees are useful. It is necessary to investigate before legislating. But the line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one, and the junior senator from Wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly.

[Shirley Wirshba]

Right after he came out of the studio having done the McCarthy broadcast, I knew I was going to be having children. And I said, ed, if it's a boy, I'm going to name him after you. And he answered, do you think it was worth it? And I said, it has to be.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

Did you name your child after him?

[Shirley Wirshba]

I did.

[Host (possibly Bob Garfield or Brooke Gladstone)]

So you guys didn't take your work home?

[Shirley Wirshba]

We lived our work.

[Edward R. Murrow (voice actor or quoted)]

Whatever happens in this whole area of the relationship between the individual and the state, we will do it ourselves. It cannot be blamed on Malenkoff or Mao Zedong or even our allies. And it seems to us, that is Fred Friendly and myself, that this is a subject that should be argued about endlessly.

[Michael Oinger]

Joe Wirshba died at the age of 90 in 2011. Shirley Wirshba is 103 years old. Thanks for listening to the podcast Extra. Don't forget to tune into the big show this weekend when we'll observe that there's been a recent uptick in people being deemed terrorists and also martyrs. In the meantime, consider following the show over on Instagram, TikTok and Blue Sky. Just search on the media. Media See you Friday. I'm Michael Olinger.

[Shirley Wirshba]

NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.