Brooke Gladstone (1:47)

Mm. David Gilbert, who covers disinformation in online extremism for Wired, has found these posts have pushed some former MAGA supporters over the edge. David, welcome to the show.

David Gilbert (2:00)

Thanks for having me, bro.

Brooke Gladstone (2:02)

So let's review some of the major former Trump supporters who got pushed over the edge.

David Gilbert (2:09)

One of the people leading the charge was Marjorie Taylor Greene. She posted after the AI image went up that it's more than blasphemy, it's an antichrist spirit. Then we saw Pastor Joel Webbin, who's pretty prominent in the MAGA world.

Tim Heidecker (2:23)

Do I think that Donald J. Trump is antichrist?

David Gilbert (2:27)

No. Do I think that he is an antichrist? Many antichrists have gone out into the world. Maybe. It is really, truly incredible that figures like Weben are talking like this. They were willing to indulge Trump when he was this divinely anointed person by God to bring America back to its Former glory. But when he steps over that line, and I don't think Trump fully understands what he did because he really isn't a man of faith. He isn't really a practicing Christian. And posting himself as Jesus, it instantly turns people against him.

Brooke Gladstone (3:02)

He really doesn't get them, does he?

David Gilbert (3:05)

He gets their votes. And it's been like that for a long time. They've played a game to an extent, because lots of policies that they wanted to enact, they saw Trump as their best opportunity. He wasn't the person who went to church every Sunday. He wasn't the person who was able to quote a single Bible verse. He was once asked, what's your favorite passage from the Bible?

Alex Jones (3:27)

I don't want to get into specifics.

David Gilbert (3:29)

Even to cite a verse.

Alex Jones (3:30)

No, I don't want to do that. Old Testament guy or New Testament guy, probably equal. I think it's just an incredible. The whole Bible is an incredible. I joke very much so. They always hold up the art of the day. I say my second favorite book of

David Gilbert (3:44)

all time, and that was a long time ago. So he's constantly portraying himself as this figure of faith, and it's very obvious that he has none. And yet the evangelical right are willing to support him through all of this up until the point that he said he was Jesus.

Brooke Gladstone (4:03)

There's this guy, Clint Russell. He's the host of the right wing Liberty Lockdown podcast. Is he an important guy again?

David Gilbert (4:12)

He's another figure who, if you had said six months ago that he would be saying that there's a decent chance Trump is the Antichrist, which he said on X, I wouldn't have believed you because he has been staunchly pro Trump throughout Trump's presidency. It just is another example of how he is losing figures who have never wavered in their support for him.

Brooke Gladstone (4:33)

What about the Knights Templar Order? Sounds like something out of the Da

David Gilbert (4:37)

Vinci Code, out of Indiana Jones even. They're a Christian organization. They came from this medieval military order, and once again, they would have never broken with Trump. But they said that they had no other choice but to condemn it wholeheartedly. A year ago, he posted a picture of himself as the Pope. There was none of this type of condemnation. It really is a tipping point where these supporters feel they have to speak out against this.

Brooke Gladstone (5:05)

You mentioned the Pope. Trump called Pope Leo weak on crime, terrible for foreign policy. Leo called the war in Iran atrocious, that the leaders responsible have hands full of blood. How much does his squabbling with the Pope figure into this? Obviously, Maga didn't have any trouble with Trump fighting with Pope Francis. They didn't like him very much. They seem to really like Pope Leo.

David Gilbert (5:36)

The difference between him and his predecessors is that Pope Leo's an American. He speaks in English. His statements are not translated, and he is speaking directly about compassion, empathy for other humans, condemning war, very basic Christian, Catholic viewpoints. But his speaking out directly against the war in Iran has clearly angered Trump and gotten under his skin.

Brooke Gladstone (6:06)

As you've noted, the assassination attempt on Trump in the summer of 2024. Trump and a lot of his supporters, including Tucker Carlson, said that his survival was an act of divine intervention. But in recent written about this new conspiracy theory that's taken hold, that the entire assassination attempt was staged.

David Gilbert (6:30)

Okay, it's not a new conspiracy because the minute the assassination attempt happened in Butler, Pennsylvania, in July 2024, a huge section of people on the left were screaming that Trump had set it all up and did it to reinvigorate his campaign.

Brooke Gladstone (6:44)

It wasn't just people on the left, though. It mostly was. Didn't Joe Rogan and Elon Musk weigh in?

David Gilbert (6:51)

That was in 2025. They were saying that the CNN coverage of it was weird because CNN didn't typically cover Trump rallies, but they covered this one live. They were kind of insinuating that CNN were somehow in on it or knew that it was going to happen.

Brooke Gladstone (7:05)

Because Trump and CNN are such great pals.

David Gilbert (7:08)

Exactly.

Brooke Gladstone (7:09)

Especially back then.

David Gilbert (7:10)

And people like Marjorie Taylor Greene at the time were condemning people on the left for suggesting it was staged. Fast forward 20 months later. Now she is among the cadre of Maga or former Maga people, including Tucker Carlson, including Candace Owens, Alex Jones, who are suggesting that the entire thing was staged by Trump? It's a remarkable reversal, and it speaks to how a lot of people have lost faith in what Trump is doing. And now because of that, they're willing to indulge in these wild conspiracy theories.

Brooke Gladstone (7:46)

Do you want to talk about Tucker Carlson's big monologue about the war in Iran where he says many religious people

Michael Ohinger (7:54)

of different religions have been killed over the past 2,000 years, but there's been only one sustained effort to exterminate a faith, and that's the Christian faith. Could that be part of it? And is it possible that the President sees this not just in geostrategic terms, in military terms, in economic terms? Got open the strait, okay. Is it possible the President sees this in bigger terms, sees this as the fulfillment of something or the elevation to some higher office beyond President of the United States. We've ignored that. This could actually be real.

Alex Jones (8:26)

There's something going on here.

Brooke Gladstone (8:28)

What the hell is he talking about?

David Gilbert (8:31)

He's circling around the fact that he thinks Trump is the Antichrist. He's speaking about this at the same time as the Easter Sunday post that Trump put out, kind of insinuating it, but not openly explicitly saying it, because he knows exactly who he's speaking to in his audience and they will get it. And if you look at the reaction to that monologue, Alex Jones called it out straight away on X. He said that Tucker Carlson is calling Trump the Antichrist. If you went into any online forums, they were claiming the exact same thing. So Carlson was kind of sowing the seeds for what would become this push to label Trump as the Antichrist, giving himself plausible deniability at the same time of saying, oh no, I was just asking questions. That monologue kicked off this month long push by Carlson to go from questioning Trump's policies and if he's anti Christian to now being openly apologizing about supporting Trump in the first place.

Brooke Gladstone (9:32)

Which brings us to the assassination attempt again. And the charge that it was staged, you say, got a big airing on Tucker Carlson's show when Joe Kent, former director of the United States National Counterterrorism center, resigned. He went on Carlson's podcast and he intimated that there was a cover up.

David Gilbert (9:56)

Butler happens and Crooks, according to the

Tim Heidecker (9:59)

official narrative anyways, is an enigma.

David Gilbert (10:01)

We don't know anything about him.

Tim Heidecker (10:02)

We can't get into his devices.

David Gilbert (10:03)

If we did get into his devices, maybe there's nothing there. No more questions are allowed to be

Tim Heidecker (10:07)

asked about Thomas Crooks.

Michael Ohinger (10:09)

The DHS IG is currently being blocked

Tim Heidecker (10:11)

from investigating Butler as well.

David Gilbert (10:13)

That's out in the media. That's all well known. Your investigative journalist found that Crooks did indeed have an online Persona, quite an online footprint. And he was talking to people. So it's like, why aren't we investigating this? So again, it's a lot of just asking questions. But what they're doing is they're setting the scene for people to go, oh my God, there's something more here. Joe Kent, you know, had the highest national security clearance level. He will know something, but he probably can't say it. This has to be a cover up. And that's exactly what happened. The minute that this podcast went out, you could see online people started posting more and more on X primarily, but on Google Truth Social, even on other kind of more fringe platforms about the Butler conspiracy, which hadn't really been discussed at all in that world ever that it was staged. And so slowly we saw more and more people talking about it. And over the course of the last week, I guess it's really exploded as we've had former GOP national delegates talking about it in viral posts, how they were at the RNC a couple of days later and how that had kind of raised red flags immediately. And but it took them this long to come around to the fact that they now fully believe that it was staged. It's very interesting to see how once one person with a high profile is willing to engage in this kind of conspiratorial thinking out loud on his podcast, all the others are willing to follow along very quickly afterwards. So you had Tucker Carlson first with Joe Kent, you had Alex Jones, you have Candace Owens, you have Marjorie Taylor Greene, all willing to now publicly voice their questions about the assassination attempt and how they believe it's a cover up.

Brooke Gladstone (11:59)

We have been very careful on the show not to generalize about Christians. Obviously, Trump's feud with the Vatican will be difficult for many Catholics, but those who are bound up with charismatic preachers, they likely won't turn against Trump. And the liberal Christians have always been appalled by him. But some in this group of disaffected are former Trump supporters. Once we get past the bold face names. How about the Southern Baptists? That's a huge denomination.

David Gilbert (12:33)

The term evangelical is problematic to an extent because it's used for a lot of Christians in the US and it is now viewed by many, especially outside the US As a derogatory term because they feel evangelical Christians are willing to overlook all of Trump's misdeeds and support him no matter what. And I don't think that's accurate. While there are some who will never break with Trump, there are a lot who are willing to put up with a lot. But not everything we've seen with the AI post that people just know in their bones that that's not right. And if you look at the pro Trump communities that I would monitor on Facebook, these aren't extremist groups. These are just generalized pro Trump groups.

Brooke Gladstone (13:22)

Didn't you observe that in the past in a lot of those online communities, criticism of Trump has been more than discouraged, seen as treasonous.

David Gilbert (13:33)

Only in the last year has it changed. But up until then, you criticize Trump by name rather than his policies or his administration, then you are going to be piled on. You may even be thrown out of that group because you're viewed as, you know, a traitor. That has now changed it's not that these pro Trump groups are suddenly anti Trump, but perception has shifted. And so I think as Trump continues to barrel through his second presidency and have little care for what anyone else thinks, whether it's his own administration officials and certainly not his base, I think we're gonna see more and more of his supporters or former supporters criticize him. It's going to be interesting to see if that has a big effect on the GOP in the midterm elections or if it really won't, because his core base is still going to support him rather than voting for a Democrat.

Brooke Gladstone (14:29)

But it wasn't his core base that elected him, was the core base and all those other people who didn't want their taxes raised.

David Gilbert (14:38)

That's very true. And if you look at some of the polling, it suggests that he has lost a lot of young men, people who listen to Teo Vaughn or Joe Rogan. Teovan and Joe Rogan are now criticizing Trump openly. So if it is to be believed that Joe Rogan, Teofan won the election for Trump, then it should also stand that they will have a big effect on the midterms in 2026. I personally think that belief is a little bit overblown, but let's see. And Trump knows it because he had Joe Rogan at the White House last week, you know, shaking his hand, giving him an executive order in relation to psychedelics that he had been pushing for.

Brooke Gladstone (15:16)

David, thank you so much.

David Gilbert (15:18)

No problem. It was great to chat.

Brooke Gladstone (15:20)

David Gilbert is a reporter at Wired, covering disinformation and online extremism.

Michael Ohinger (15:32)

Coming up, hang on to your tinfoil hat. A conspiracist bunker in Texas. This may be the next wellspring of Internet comedy.

Brooke Gladstone (15:40)

This is on the Media.

WNYC Studios Announcer (15:49)

WNYC Studios is supported by Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes, back with its third season. Each spring, 23 prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music. Pulitzer on the Road brings conversations with prize winners to you. You'll hear from the New Yorkers, David Remnick and Carlos Lozada of the New York Times, authors Natasha Trethewey and Lucy Sant, and journalists Nariman Al Mufti and Tolu Olorunipa. Listen to Pulitzer on the Road wherever you get your podcasts.

Michael Ohinger (16:21)

Keeping up with this economy matters. And in a world full of hot takes and noise, Marketplace does things differently. I'm Kai Rysdal, the host of Marketplace, a daily podcast that delivers independent, award winning journalism dedicated to you smarter about this economy. You can listen To Marketplace on Spotify.

Brooke Gladstone (16:43)

This is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

Michael Ohinger (16:46)

And I'm Michael Loewinger.

Amy Goodman (16:48)

Well, they're known for joking around, but now the Onion is getting downright serious. The legendary satirical newspaper has a new plan to take over infowars, the right wing platform founded by conspiracy theorist Alex Jones.

Michael Ohinger (17:02)

A little backstory. Jones launched a crusade of lies in 2013 against the victims of the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting, calling the whole thing a hoax, a false flag. It was ugly, demeaning, and persistent. Eventually, in 2018, multiple families of the children killed in the mass shooting sued Jones for defamation. When called to the stand in 2022 and asked about spreading this lie, Jones sounded contrite.

Tim Heidecker (17:29)

Do you understand now that it was absolutely irresponsible of you to do that?

Alex Jones (17:33)

It was. Especially since I met the parents and it's 100% real.

Michael Ohinger (17:39)

Jones largely didn't show up for court, so the judge handed down a default judgment finding him liable for $1.4 billion in damages. His contriteness was short lived in a

Alex Jones (17:51)

default, even though we gave them all the discovery, so they had no case. So she found me guilty, wouldn't let us put on a case, and then for five weeks had people up there cry about their kids that d. And I'm very sad about it. I didn't kill their kids. You know, it's like O.J. simpson was found civilly guilty of murdering two people. He paid $33.5 million. So I didn't murder anybody. I just questioned a public event. And so if they think they're gonna get 900 plus million dollars, they're gravely mistaken. And here's more news.

Michael Ohinger (18:19)

Despite filing for bankruptcy shortly after the judgment, Jones stayed on air and didn't give the families a dimension. That's where the Onion comes in. In 2024, CEO Ben Collins saw an opportunity to buy Infowars at auction. The idea was to take over the brand while providing some money to the Sandy Hook plaintiffs still awaiting payment. But it turned out to be a bit more complicated. There was a ton of legal back and forth throughout 2025. And in early 2026, Collins was waffling.

Ben Collins (18:49)

I had real reservations at the turn of the year about continuing to do this, because at that point, it had been like 13 months, which seems too long for me to keep going with something where I don't know what the ending is going to be. And then on January 5th, Renee Goode was shot. And I don't remember being as, like, incandescently angry at A news event in my entire life. You know, I turned on infowars afterwards, and he had Kyle Rittenhouse on. And Kyle Rittenhouse was saying that Renee Goode was putting cigarettes out on her kids, and that's why she had her kids taken away.

Michael Ohinger (19:20)

Oh, my God.

Ben Collins (19:21)

And this was within hours of her death, and that he had read it on X, so it had to be true, of course. And I just thought, these are going to do this for the rest of our lives without any punishment. They are just going to keep getting away with it. And that's when I thought, I'm not giving up. We're going to get this thing done, and we're going to replace it with something beautiful.

Michael Ohinger (19:46)

So Collins and the Onion kept waiting for months.

Ben Collins (19:49)

We were just in this holding pattern. And then something happened last month, and it was a very ridiculous way for this to come to a head.

Michael Ohinger (19:57)

You're about to say that you saw a clip of him on Tim Pool's podcast.

Ben Collins (20:01)

That's correct. Yes. Alex went on Tim Pool's podcast, and he was not the picture of sobriety.

Alex Jones (20:08)

But we're getting shut down. We have. We beat so many attacks, and. But finally, we're shutting down, like, the middle of next month.

Amy Goodman (20:16)

Wow.

Alex Jones (20:17)

It's gonna be insane what happens, people, you know.

Brooke Gladstone (20:19)

Yeah.

Alex Jones (20:20)

So this is the fake auctions. All of it's happening right now.

Michael Ohinger (20:24)

So what are you gonna do? You're launching a new thing, or what are you doing?

Alex Jones (20:27)

Fine.

Amy Goodman (20:27)

All right, all right.

Ben Collins (20:28)

Well, he said that all the time. Like, almost every month during this stay, they were gonna shut him down. So I called our bankruptcy lawyer, and I said, buddy, I'm sorry to ask you this once again, but he's saying they're gonna shut them down next month. Can you just check in on it?

Amy Goodman (20:41)

Check.

Ben Collins (20:42)

Call the receiver. And the receiver is like, yeah, they're out of money. The estate's out of money, so we can't keep operating infowars. So we went to them and we said, well, this thing has considerably less value to us as a dead asset. How about this? We will pay the exorbitant rent that Alex Jones pays to his landlord to keep his gigantic sprawling studio with all of his stuff in it. We will pay that to take over the ip, and we will keep the lights on in the studio so things don't melt. So by the time we can buy, it will remain in one piece. And this state receiver. And by the way, I just want to stress this. I don't. I didn't know about bankruptcy court before.

Amy Goodman (21:23)

This.

Ben Collins (21:23)

I didn't know anything at all. I didn't. I thought, I literally thought we were headed into like a Storage wars style auction. But I've had to learn all this stuff. The state receiver has two duties. One, it's to keep the value of the estate alive, to keep the, the assets going, and to do what's best for the creditors. And the creditors in this case are the San Diego families. And that met both thresholds. So he said yes on Monday. This week he filed with the court that we had come to an agreement. And we hope by a week from now we'll be fully informally taking over in forwards.com so it appears that the

Michael Ohinger (21:59)

Onion might really at long last do this. So long as the judge approves. But in all that news, one particular announcement caught my eye. The Onion named a creative director for their incoming media asset, comedian Tim Heidecker, someone Collins is really excited about.

Ben Collins (22:18)

He is probably the best alt comic in the world. He's very much a comics comic and he was the heart and soul of Adult Swim back in the day.

Michael Ohinger (22:26)

He's half of the comedy duo Tim and Eric, and he's known to do a very particular impression.

Alex Jones (22:31)

It's looking very likely that the Global Tetrahedron will seize control of Infowars in the coming days. The folks at Global Tetrahedon have asked

Tim Heidecker (22:41)

me to step in to run the show over there.

Michael Ohinger (22:44)

Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Heidecker (22:46)

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Michael Ohinger (22:47)

Micah, you've been named the new creative director of Infowars. Why would you want this job?

Tim Heidecker (22:56)

Why not? Overall, there's two sort of big thoughts. Here was one. It would be fun to goof on Infowars for a period of time once we commandeered it and sort of parody that world. But then that would run its course and not be funny anymore and there would be this big media brand that we could do whatever we want with. And what I have been craving and wanting in the world is a home for what I consider good individual voiced led comedy.

Michael Ohinger (23:30)

You're still waiting on a judge to approve the relaunch of the site. But the Onion already has the rights to sell Infowars branded merch on theunion.info. that site also advertises, quote unquote, sold out products like Demon guard patches that offer 24 hour protection from dark entities and Pure O oxygen supplements that promise optimal absorption and mind maximization. Those are fake. Or are they? Have you tried them?

Tim Heidecker (24:01)

I've tried the Pure O and it's a trip. Yeah, I mean, it's more oxygen than you get in a 24 hour period all at once and it's removed. I've had several terminal illnesses that have been immediately cur after one dose. So I'm a big, big fan of that product.

Michael Ohinger (24:17)

When did you start watching Alex Jones? Do you have like a memory of your first InfoWars moment?

Tim Heidecker (24:23)

I would think it would be in the 2015 era, pre Trump. Leading up to Trump, I'm sure I was aware of him as kind of like an Internet oddity, you know, a coast to coast conspiracy theory kind of fella, sort of harmless, benign, amusing clown. And we goofed on him at the Republican convention in Cleveland, followed him around and I think when he became an actual, you know, it was like Trump's going on his show and validating some of his crazy stuff. It felt like this guy's actually influencing, in a way, my life because I live here. It's a weird time because he's now at odds with Trump.

Michael Ohinger (25:02)

Yeah, he recently said he thought that Trump was possessed by a demon or something like that.

Tim Heidecker (25:08)

Well, we are confirming that. We did some medical blood tests and there is demonic blood running through his veins. But yeah, I'm going to slip into that every once in a while if you.

Michael Ohinger (25:19)

No, I love it. In fact, this Alex Jones impression, you have done it to the man himself.

Tim Heidecker (25:24)

I did.

Michael Ohinger (25:25)

Back in 2017, you somehow crashed an InfoWars livestream outside the RNC. Can you help me set this up?

Tim Heidecker (25:33)

One of my comedy partners, Vic Berger, we were shooting a special for him. Walking around the convention, doing the thing, interviewing people. Vic has a great interview with him as he's. Because Vic loves Chubby Checker and was. And we were shooting this in Cleveland and Vic was asking everybody why Chubby Checker isn't in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And so his question for Alex Jones was, what do you think about Chubby Checker not being in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame? I don't know. I don't get involved in all that stuff. I think that's literally what he says. He really got taken off, off, off guard there. But then later the next day or something, I was just walking around causing trouble and there they were live broadcasting and just launched into it.

Michael Ohinger (26:13)

There's like a reporter who you sort of accost with your impression.

Alex Jones (26:18)

This guy here is doing a great impression of him.

Michael Ohinger (26:21)

And so I'm gonna step away because he's quite distracting.

Alex Jones (26:25)

Let's let this distractor get in here. Let's, let's see what this dumbo's doing. Ladies and gentlemen, Roger Stone is going

David Gilbert (26:31)

to be my guest any second now.

Alex Jones (26:32)

So stay tuned and join us here at the Republican National Convention. All right. Because we are going to take our party back, ladies and gentlemen. We've been trolled or whatever. I think it's funny.

Tim Heidecker (26:42)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's an attention whore. And like any narcissist, there's a certain love of getting the attention of people knowing who you are and how to sound like you and stuff. So he was probably just amused by it, as I would be, I think. As anybody would be, if you're so distinctive that somebody can do an impression of you. Unlike Bill Maher, by the way, who apparently hates when people do impressions of him, which. That's another sickness that doesn't make sense to me.

Michael Ohinger (27:06)

Back then. Jones was a good sport about it, but flash forward to today. I don't think he's been such a good sport about it.

Tim Heidecker (27:13)

No. He said, I'm a skin walker.

Alex Jones (27:15)

Just because you're wearing my shirt don't mean you're me. So let's be 100% clear about that. This is what the left do. They try to silence you, then they misrepresent who you are. They're body snatchers. They're skinwalkers. They literally take your skin. This is gonna backfire big time, folks.

Michael Ohinger (27:31)

How did it feel to kind of watch him melt down at the mere thought of you parodying him?

Tim Heidecker (27:38)

It's a trip. It's surreal. I mean, I'm really living an out of body experience right now, out of my skin into somebody else's skin experience. You know, the people here, the legal team here, and Ben Collins and the owner of the Onion, everybody has been so supportive and great and careful about this. And the reaction has been just like, so overwhelmingly positive by your average people out there who have definitely outweighed his ranting and shirtless raving on his little TV show that he won't have anymore.

Michael Ohinger (28:09)

Pretty soon, I want to ask you a kind of, like, comedy philosophy question.

Tim Heidecker (28:13)

Ah, yes, let's get into it.

Michael Ohinger (28:15)

Conan o' Brien earlier this year was doing an interview with David Remnick on the New Yorker Radio Hour about why he doesn't find parodying Trump funny anymore. Years ago, when I was at Harvard and working on the Lampoon, we would try and think of magazines we could do a parody of. And there was one magazine we always knew we couldn't parody, which was the National Enquirer. If a magazine has as its cover, Elvis still Alive marries Alien, and they Have a baby. That's a three speed blender. That's what the real magazine's coming out with. You can't do a comedic take on that. It's very difficult or I think impossible to do. And I think Trump, if he were a magazine, it's the National Enquirer. Do you agree with him that Trump parodies aren't funny? And if so, do you think there's like a similar logic could apply to parodying Alex Jones?

Tim Heidecker (29:12)

First of all, I don't find Conan mugging and doing promos for the Oscars in his gold suit very funny either. You know, I don't necessarily think he's the expert on what's funny all the time. With all due respect, I think Trump continues to be hilarious insane. For me, it's an endlessly insane and amusing thing that we're actually living through as it applies to Alex Jones. I think people need to hear other people like me remind the world that this is insane and try to do it in an entertaining way. Otherwise people feel like they're going crazy and that they're alone and that when you call this stuff out and try to do it in an amusing way, it hopefully provides some comfort and relief to your average Joe who's just trying to get through their damn day.

Michael Ohinger (30:05)

It's interesting. And to be clear, I believe too, that Alex Jones is extremely ripe for comedy. All that said, I don't think Alex Jones is going away just because you're gonna mock him from his own studio. Right?

Tim Heidecker (30:18)

Right. No, I don't think so. I mean, he's welcome to stand on the side of the road in Austin, Texas, with a cardboard sign and a tinfoil hat and tell the passerbyers driving by what he thinks about, whatever, Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster or whatever.

Michael Ohinger (30:36)

But he still has four and a half million followers on X. You know, he's just.

Tim Heidecker (30:40)

Yeah, but you know, I think first of all, those numbers are full of bots and full of people that are like me, who's just amused by it, but I don't really know what his support structure is and can't really worry about it. Eventually, you know, we're going to move past this moment into a place where we try to change the meaning of the word infowars in everyone's head. And you go, dude, did you see that great on Infowars last night?

Michael Ohinger (31:04)

Wow.

Tim Heidecker (31:04)

And then like three years from now, you're like, what was Infowars again? Oh, that was that crazy website. You know, maybe that seems like a fool's errand, but it just seems for whatever reason, for me that feels like an exciting journey to go on in my old age.

Michael Ohinger (31:18)

Tim, thank you very much.

Tim Heidecker (31:20)

You're welcome, Micah.

Michael Ohinger (31:21)

Tim Heidecker is a writer, actor, director, and half of the comedic duo Tim and Eric. He was recently named the Creative Director of infowars.

Brooke Gladstone (31:33)

Coming up, an icon of independent media and how to stay the course after 30 plus years on the air.

Michael Ohinger (31:40)

This is on the Media.

WNYC Studios Announcer (31:49)

WNYC Studios is supported by Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes back with its third season. Each spring, 23 prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music. Pulitzer on the Road brings conversations with prize winners to you. You'll hear from the New Yorkers, David Remnick and Carlos Lozada of the New York Times, authors Natasha Trethewey and Lucy Sant, and journalists Nariman Al Mufti and Tolu Olorunipa. Listen to Pulitzer on the Road wherever you get your podcasts.

Michael Ohinger (32:21)

Keeping up with this economy matters. And in a world full of hot takes and noise, Marketplace does things differently. I'm Kyle Rysdal, the host of Marketplace, a daily podcast that delivers independent, award winning journalism dedicated to making you smarter about this economy. You can listen to Marketplace on Spotify.

Brooke Gladstone (32:44)

This is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

Michael Ohinger (32:46)

And I'm Michael Ohinger. On Thursday, Paramount Skydance took another step forward in its bid to massively expand its Media Holdings.

Ben Collins (32:55)

An $81 billion Warner Paramount Mega merger

Michael Ohinger (32:59)

has now received shareholder stamp of approval, propelling a deal that could vastly reshape

Ben Collins (33:05)

Hollywood and the wider media landscape.

Michael Ohinger (33:08)

Closer to the finish line. This is one of the last remaining hurdles for Paramount before it can actually take over WBD and bring together brands like CNN and CBS News and hbo Max and Paramount. This sort of consolidation is no surprise to a co of scholars and journalists who've spent decades sounding the alarm on media deregulation. Among them, Amy Goodman, co host and co founder of Democracy Now, a fiercely independent daily broadcast and online show. For 30 years, Goodman has grown a loyal audience built on her famously persistent brand of investigative journalism.

Amy Goodman (33:46)

Can you explain why you won't answer any questions on the issue of climate change or why the US Is here?

Michael Ohinger (33:53)

And her foregrounding of people otherwise ignored by the mainstream media.

Amy Goodman (33:57)

We turn to a growing protest in North Dakota, where hundreds of indigenous activists have shut down construction on the $3.8 billion Dakota Access Pipeline. The oil pipeline threatens to contaminate the Missouri river, which provides water not only for thousands of residents on the reservation but also for millions living, living downstream.

Michael Ohinger (34:16)

Her unapologetic editorial choices over the years have led to some pointed criticism of her perceived biases. Here's Stephen Colbert in 2009, when he was still in his old right wing Persona, making the point. You're a communist, right. You're super liberal lefty. They don't get any more liberal lefty, like outside agitator than you, do they?

Amy Goodman (34:40)

I don't know. I think that conservative and liberal lines are breaking down right now.

Michael Ohinger (34:44)

Yeah, to right and wrong now. Amy Goodman is the subject of a new documentary, Steal this Story Please, which takes us through her decades long career. Last week we sat down in a WNYC studio to talk about the film and the 30th anniversary of her show on what turned out to be a rather auspicious day.

Amy Goodman (35:05)

I'm very honored to be doing this on my birthday.

Michael Ohinger (35:08)

Happy birthday.

Amy Goodman (35:09)

Thank you.

Ben Collins (35:09)

Are you serious?

Amy Goodman (35:10)

Yes.

Michael Ohinger (35:10)

Oh my God.

Amy Goodman (35:11)

I never, ever tell anyone my birthday. But it's just so hilarious that I'm looking at April 13, which is this, you know, like 13 everyone else. It makes them very nervous, the number. But I've always liked that number, so it's fun. That just means be nice to me.

Michael Ohinger (35:28)

I will be very nice to you. I started our conversation by asking Goodman where her reporting ethos and her urge to stay independent came from.

Amy Goodman (35:37)

I come out of Pacifica Radio, which was founded in 1949 in Berkeley. War resister named Lou Hill came out of the detention camps and said, there's got to be a media outlet that's not run by corporations that profit from war, but run by journalists and artists. And so Pacifica was born. 5 stations. Kpfk in Los Angeles, R station WBAI in New York, WPFW in Washington, Jazz and justice radio, and KPFT in 1970 in Houston. That station went on the air and a few weeks later it was blown up by the Ku Klux Klan. They strapped dynamite to the base of the transmitter. They get back on the air a few weeks later, they rebuild the transmitter. And The Klan strapped 15 times the dynamite to the transmitter and blew it to smithereens. The Klan leader said it was his proudest act because he understood how dangerous independent media is. Dangerous because it allows people to speak for themselves. And when you hear someone speaking for themselves, it makes it much less likely that you'll want to destroy him.

Michael Ohinger (36:48)

I want to talk about an example of how you tried to use your reporting as a force for peace. In 1991, when you were working at WBAI, you learned about a story that had been missing from mainstream coverage. Indonesia's invasion of East Timor in 1975 and its systematic killing of a third of the Timorese population. 90% of the weapons used by the Indonesian army were supplied by our government. Talk about why you wanted to travel there and what you discovered through your reporting.

Amy Goodman (37:21)

I went there with my colleague Alan Nairn, and I decided to do a documentary on East Timor. We went in 90 and then again in 91. And in 91, the occupation of East Timor had been going on for 17 years. For the first time, a UN delegation was in go to investigate the human rights situation. A huge deal for the people of Timor. They were dropping out of their workplaces, out of schools, to take refuge in churches that they be able to speak to the delegation. We learned that a young man had just been killed on the steps of the church by the Indonesian army, by the Indonesian military. Two weeks later, in total desperation, they decided to hold a procession from the main church to the cemetery. The Timorese then held up banners drawn on bedsheets they had been prepared. We followed this human procession to the cemetery. And then we saw hundreds of Indonesian soldiers with their USM 16s at the ready position. We had walked to the front of the crowd. We took our equipment out. I held up my microphone like a flag. Alan put the camera above his head. They swept past us and without warning hesitation, they just opened fire on the crowd.

Michael Ohinger (38:43)

The Timorese in an instant were down,

David Gilbert (38:46)

just torn apart by the bullets.

Tim Heidecker (38:48)

The street was covered with bodies.

Amy Goodman (38:50)

The first to go down was a little boy behind me, just exploded from the gunfire. And they just kept killing. They came at us. They beat me to the ground. Alan threw himself on top of me to protect me. And they used their USM 16s like baseball bats and slammed them against his skull until they fractured it. They ultimately had lined up in firing Scott fashion with the guns to our heads, but pulled those guns away because we believe they thought that they would have to pay a price for killing us, that they had never paid for killing the Timorese. We were from the same country their weapons were from.

Michael Ohinger (39:29)

Witnessing this massacre taught you how critical it was to expose what is done in our name as Americans.

Amy Goodman (39:37)

That's right. After we got back, we held a news conference, explained that the weapons used against the Timorese that killed over 270 of them were from the United States. And a nationwide movement grew up to fight for the people of East Timor and their independence. And in 1999 the UN held a referendum. And in 2002, it became one of the newest nations in the world. And I understood clearly, if people knew what was happening, they would do something about it. It's our job as journalists to go to where the silence is.

Michael Ohinger (40:10)

The documentary features a clip of you at a press briefing after your reporting in East Timor, questioning a government official about why President Clinton was restoring military aid to Indonesia. You said to the government spokesperson, now

Amy Goodman (40:25)

that was cut off after the massacre of November 1991, which I witnessed and survived. Why is President Clinton considering restoring that military training aid?

Michael Ohinger (40:33)

How do you toe this line between asking tough questions like that and then perhaps jeopardizing future access?

Amy Goodman (40:42)

You trade truth for access. It's not worth it. Politicians need us more than we need them. They need to be able to explain themselves to the public. And let's be clear, freedom of the press is about the public's right to know. And that's why I was questioning Mike McCurry, President Clinton's spokesperson. Yes, the journalist laughed when he wanted to shut it down. But we can't give in to that kind of peer pressure. Lives are at stake.

Michael Ohinger (41:14)

What did it feel like being in that room and having your colleagues in the mainstream press laugh at your expense?

Amy Goodman (41:22)

They were asking about golf clubs and what President Clinton would be doing. I think it was their anniversary. President Clinton and Hillary Clinton. You know, I survived this massacre. It's not about me. It's about the third of the population who had been killed. I was just more determined than ever to expose what is done in our name.

Michael Ohinger (41:42)

The show has been really successful. You have also experienced a lot of criticism in your rise in the industry. You've been called an activist rather than a journalist. How do you make sense of that label, that distinction? Do you see activism and journalism in tension? Is that the wrong way to think about it?

Amy Goodman (42:03)

First of all, I don't think to be called an activist for people who are out there on the streets is in any way way a way to denigrate someone. But if your view does not represent the status quo, you are then called an activist. But you're just representing a point of view that's not shared by the establishment. I think about the great journalist and publisher Ida B. Wells, who campaigned, crusaded against slavery. Her press was burned down. She was forced out of communities. She didn't think lynching was good. The corporate media has shut down voices or tried to.

Michael Ohinger (42:45)

But did you ever worry that by not presenting as more neutral, you were inviting people to tune out your reporting? That you were potentially resigning yourself to just reach an Audience that already, I

Amy Goodman (42:59)

mean, to be fair and accurate, is exactly the tenets of good journalism. What Nermeen Shaikh, says, co host on Democracy now, is expand the frame. Bring the people who are left out or on the fringes of the frame to the middle. And it's not just, you know, hear them occasionally. It's centering those voices. And I really do think those voices, you know, those who care about war and peace, those who care about the climate, those who care about inequality, racial and economic equality, those who care about LGBTQ issues are not a fringe minority, not even a silent majority, but the silenced majority silenced by the corporate media.

Michael Ohinger (43:42)

What would you like to see more of your colleagues in the press right now do in their coverage of our

Amy Goodman (43:50)

war in Iran, bring in the voices of Iranians in the same case as in Palestine and Israel? Not a lot of young people watch tv, but I do because I want to look at how the narrative is framed so we can deconstruct it. Just the lack of Palestinian voices, it is astounding. It isn't that hard to do this. And these networks have much more resources than we do. You just make a phone call, you say, what's happening on the ground? And in the same way, Israeli peace activists, they are not monolithic. And we don't hear their voices either. In Iran, we're talking regularly to Iranian professors, to activists, to diplomats, to artists, hear them frame their own situation. We've spoken to professors here who were on death row in Evim prison in Tehran. They do not support what the US And Israel are doing to Iran. You would think they'd say, get rid of the regime, but they say this actually serves the opposite purpose. It will harden the regime, make it much more far right. This does not accomplish our ends. I think we as reporters know no borders. And to bring out the voices of people all over is our responsibility. The way the rest of the world learns about us and how we learn about the rest of the world should be through something other than a corporate life.

Michael Ohinger (45:31)

That corporate lens, though, seems to be losing ground, right? A lot of these outlets that I think you have viewed as like, your foil, they're not as powerful as they once were. Young people aren't watching Ms. Now and CNN and the like. That model feels like it's dying. But there are new independent outlets that are rising up, like dropsite, Zeteo, and 404Media. These are fiercely adversarial, but also openly progressive outlets. They tend to have smaller, at least right now, but very loyal audiences. Do you see Any of Democracy Now's DNA in these new upstarts.

Amy Goodman (46:15)

Absolutely. And I think Steal the Story Please does a great job of showing all the people who come out of Democracy now, like Jeremy Scahow, one of the founders of Intercept and then Dropsite News, it is so important that there be a potpourri of independent media, small and large. I've been sounding the alarm on corporate media for 30 years and at the beginning people were saying, you know, give us a break. But now they're saying, oh please, yell louder, yell louder. Because we have these vast corporate mergers who own so much and newsrooms don't make them the kind of money that their other companies do. Especially under President Trump. It is an enormous problem because the media is essential to the functioning of a democratic society. And as the media is increasingly targeted, as Pentagon reporters are told they have to sign an oath that they will not release classified information unless approved by the Pentagon journalists actually interestingly across the political spectrum saying no. And now a Joe has again and again said no. That is not constitutional.

Michael Ohinger (47:28)

You've been very critical of our government since the beginning of your journalism career. Even as other mainstream journalists have sort of cheered on wars and looked the other way at American led atrocities throughout this administration as Trump has escalated the war in Iran, especially after he posted A whole civilization will die tonight. I've seen people online sharing this meme from a British sketch comedy show called that Mitchell and Webb Look. In the sketch that the meme is pulled from, we see a Nazi officer in an SS uniform asking his compatriot,

David Gilbert (48:06)

have you noticed that our caps have actually got little pictures of skulls on them? I don't hands.

Brooke Gladstone (48:15)

Are we the baddies?

Michael Ohinger (48:18)

And I think that meme are we the baddies? Kind of captures this realization that a lot of Americans are sort of sitting with right now, that this American exceptionalism that has sort of infused the way we think about our country is dying. Where do you see our place in the world right now? Are we the baddies?

Amy Goodman (48:40)

The United States is the most powerful country on earth, but there is a force more powerful and that is everyone who stands up and says this does not represent what America can be. And this isn't theoretical and I think it's really important to show the images of war. I learned from maybe Till Mobley, who lost her son Emmett Till in 1955. Emmett was a 14 year old boy from Chicago. She wanted him out of the city for the summer, sent him to his family in money mississ. He ends up being lynched by a white mob and ends up in the bottom of the Tallahatchie River. When his body was sent back, Mamie Till Mobley said, I want the casket open for the funeral and the wake where you could see his distended, mutilated head. And then Jet magazine and other black publications took photographs of his mutilated head and they were actually published and they were seared into the history and consciousness of this country. Mamie Till had something important to teach the press of today. Show the pictures, show the images. Could you imagine for one week if we saw the images of those girls in Manape at their primary school blown up? I really do think vast changes would happen, and that's our job in the media.

Michael Ohinger (50:09)

Do you have any regrets about positions you've taken on your show or the way that you've approached stories in your career?

Amy Goodman (50:17)

I look ahead. What further do we have to do? That's always been my approach. I come out of a family tradition where we were steeped in the past. In that case, it was the Holocaust. We came out of people who had escaped the pogroms. Some were able to flee the Holocaust, others weren't. And just moving forward, lived with the belief that we have to ensure that this never happens again to anyone, anywhere. And that's what I think about every day.

Michael Ohinger (50:56)

You really think about that every day when you're on air.

Amy Goodman (50:59)

That is what motivates me. That is one of the principles of my life. And I work with a wonderful group of people deeply committed to independent media that will make things better.

Michael Ohinger (51:12)

Do you talk about democracy now after you leave the show?

Amy Goodman (51:16)

We just celebrated our 30th anniversary at Riverside Church. Bruce Springsteen sang Streets of Minneapolis and Patti Smith. They all stood on the stage and sang Patty's song, that iconic song, People have the Power. And that's what I want to see happen is media where people have the power. Democracy now is just beginning.

Michael Ohinger (51:41)

Amy, thank you very much.

Amy Goodman (51:42)

Thank you, Micah.

Alex Jones (51:45)

People have the power. Believe it. People have the power.

Amy Goodman (51:53)

Make it so.

Brooke Gladstone (51:54)

Amy Goodman is the host of Democracy Now. The documentary Steal this Story, Please is in select theaters now.

Michael Ohinger (52:04)

That's it for this week's show. On the Media is produced by Molly Rosen, Rebecca Clark Callender and Candice Wong. Travis Manning is our video producer.

Brooke Gladstone (52:13)

Our technical director is Jennifer Munson with engineering from Jared Paul. Eloise Blondio is our senior producer and our executive producer is Kathy Rogers. On the Media is produced by wnyc. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

Michael Ohinger (52:27)

And I'm Michael Umbrella.

WNYC Studios Announcer (52:28)

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