How the Justice Department Failed Epstein’s Victims

Summary

On the Media — "How the Justice Department Failed Epstein’s Victims"

Podcast: On the Media (WNYC Studios)
Date: February 6, 2026
Hosts: Brooke Gladstone
Guest: Julie K. Brown (Miami Herald investigative journalist)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the latest revelations from the Justice Department’s overdue releases of Jeffrey Epstein case files, the subsequent mishandling of survivors' private information, and ongoing failures in achieving accountability for Epstein's victims. Investigative reporter Julie K. Brown, whose relentless work helped revive the Epstein investigation, joins Brooke Gladstone to dissect the significance of the recently published (but heavily redacted and problematic) documents, the players still protected, and the deeper implications for justice in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The DOJ’s Mishandling of Victim Information

• [00:05] Justice Dept. erroneously leaked unredacted personal details and photos of survivors.
• Annie Farmer (Epstein survivor) shares firsthand impact:
  “I found my own date of birth, my own phone number.” (00:14)
• Justice Department is scrambling to remove these files from the public record.
• Epstein’s crimes spanned over 20 years, with more than 1,000 victims.

2. What the Newly Released "Epstein Files" Show—and Omit

• [01:48] The release was compelled by a new Transparency Act, with promises of rigorous privacy protections—yet these failed, exposing victims yet shielding prosecutors’ and powerful men’s names.
• Julie K. Brown describes the problem:
  “The wrong people are being exposed and the wrong people are being protected.” (04:38)
• Crucial information about the DOJ’s lenient plea deal with Epstein in 2007 remains heavily redacted; names of almost all involved prosecutors are hidden.
• Brooke Gladstone: “Basically off the hook. But he was charged with something, right?” (05:17)
  Julie K. Brown explains: Epstein served a “year” but spent it in his office, still receiving visits from young women—a “sentence” in name only.
  “He got off, considering at the time they knew he had raped about 40 girls.” (05:21)

3. The Role—and Failures—of Alex Acosta and Federal Prosecutors

• Acosta, whose deal let Epstein largely escape justice, was later promoted to Labor Secretary under Trump.
• Brown notes DOJ investigators' 2020 interviews with Acosta are replete with “I don’t remember” responses—even about basic case facts.
  “It’s unfathomable that he said that he didn’t know that there were so many victims… At one point, he’s calling the victims women... these were 13 and 14 year olds.” (06:14)
• Key evidence gaps: an 11-month gap in Acosta’s emails, especially while Epstein’s deal was being cut, attributed to “technical glitches”—but, Brown notes, “there were a lot of technical glitches, it seems, during this case.” (07:25)

4. Pattern of Corruption and Influence by Epstein

• Epstein used wealth, private investigators, and connections to corrupt the process:
  “He tried to get dirt on all of them. He investigated the police chief. He hired private investigators to follow the victims.” (07:25-07:56)
• Brown: “Epstein had a playbook to basically try to corrupt everybody that he came in contact with in order to get away with his crimes.” (07:56)

5. High-Profile Names and Ongoing Lack of Accountability

• Documented associates now include Elon Musk, Trump Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, Bill Gates, and allegations referencing both Presidents Clinton and Trump.
• The DOJ temporarily posted, then removed, a spreadsheet of unverified complaints about these individuals (03:29-03:45).
• Gladstone and Brown discuss the DOJ’s tendency to dismiss such tips as “sensationalist and untrue,” despite not investigating them.

6. Systematic Neglect of Victim Testimony and Evidence

• Brown highlights that, despite hundreds of victim interviews (“302 victim interviews”), there are no visible FBI notes or transcripts in the released files (10:30-10:46).
• “I never thought that authorities took this... The Palm Beach Police Department did their job, but the state attorney and the Justice Department completely failed these victims.” (10:46)

7. Patterns and Uninvestigated Allegations Involving Powerful Men

• Brown points out recurring patterns of Epstein and Trump hosting parties at which girls were introduced under false modeling promises.
• Gladstone asks about the notably detailed but possibly manipulated “Katie Johnson” lawsuit from 2016 against Epstein and Trump. Brown expresses the importance that the FBI never appeared to even interview her (12:50-13:57).

8. Redaction, Scrubbing, and the Obstacles to the Truth

• Brown is skeptical that anything new about Trump will surface:
  “I just don’t think we’re gonna find out anything about him because I think that they were scrubbed... I’m not saying he’s guilty of anything. These files were probably scrubbed.” (14:09)

9. Evidence of Corruption and the Duty of the Public

• Brown: “There is evidence of corruption on the part of public officials or former public officials. You know, maybe there are people that don’t understand the case as well as I do. I know all these people. Epstein kind of emailed in a code sometimes, but I could figure out what he’s saying. And he had some of these people probably on his payroll in one way or another. And I’m seeing lots of evidence of that.” (14:50)
• Brown advocates: “Everyone in the public should be writing every single one of their elected officials and demanding that this case not go away... This is a crime against children. And every single person in this country should be demanding that they start treating this case the way they should have in the beginning.” (15:42)

10. Why the Public Must Keep Paying Attention

• Gladstone asks what listeners—especially those numbed by the endless horror of the news cycle—should take away. Brown responds:
  • “If we let this case slide and all the people that helped him get away with this slide, it means we don’t care about the most vulnerable people in our society... That, to me, goes against everything our country has stood for.” (16:51)
• Brown has been flooded with tips and welcomes the new era of “citizen journalists” combing the online files for clues.
  “Everybody keep digging, send me stuff.” (17:44)

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Notable Quotes

• Annie Farmer on DOJ’s document release:
  “I found my own date of birth, my own phone number.” (00:14, 02:23)

• Julie K. Brown on redactions:
  “The wrong people are being exposed and the wrong people are being protected.” (04:38)

• Brooke Gladstone on the failed plea deal:
  “Basically off the hook. But he was charged with something, right?” (05:17)

• Julie K. Brown on Acosta:
  “It’s unfathomable that he said he didn’t know that there were so many victims… At one point, he’s calling the victims women... these were 13 and 14 year olds.” (06:14)

• Julie K. Brown on systemic failure:
  “The Palm Beach Police Department did their job, but the State attorney and the Justice Department completely failed these victims.” (10:46)

• Julie K. Brown on public responsibility:
  “Every single person in this country should be demanding that they start treating this case the way they should have in the beginning.” (15:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 — DOJ’s release of unredacted survivor information
• 01:48 — Context around the new Transparency Act and document release
• 04:07–05:21 — Julie K. Brown on redactions and the 2007 plea deal
• 06:14–07:56 — Alex Acosta and missing evidence, Epstein’s corruption tactics
• 09:04–10:30 — Law enforcement's failings, uninvestigated tips, and the challenge of victim testimony
• 12:50–13:57 — The "Katie Johnson" case and the absence of an FBI interview
• 14:09–15:19 — Status of the files, scrubbing of information
• 15:42–16:51 — Brown’s call for public action and the need to resist “sliding into apathy”
• 17:44 — Emergence of citizen journalists helping the investigation

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Tone and Flow

The discussion is serious but determined, reflecting both frustration over years of institutional failure and hope in the surge of public interest and grassroots scrutiny. Brown, while realistic about obstacles, remains driven and deeply invested: excited by discoveries, catalyzed by public engagement, but clear-eyed about the continuing lack of accountability.

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Memorable Moments

• Julie K. Brown’s candid evaluation of Acosta’s memory lapses: “Yet he doesn't remember this, doesn't remember that. It's unfathomable that he said that he didn't know that there were so many victims.” (06:14)
• Brown on the imperative of public outrage: “If we let this case slide... it means we don’t care about the most vulnerable people in our society.” (16:51)
• A call to action: “Everybody keep digging, send me stuff.” (17:44)

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Summary Takeaway

Despite a historic document release, systemic failures continue: while survivors’ privacy was violated yet again, power-brokers are shielded by redactions. Institutional corruption remains largely unaccounted for, and so much truth stays buried. Julie K. Brown’s message is clear—lasting justice will only come if the public insists on it, demanding answers, transparency, and genuine accountability from those who enabled the worst crimes against the most vulnerable.

Transcript

[Julie K. Brown]

Former Prince Andrew seen in these photos kneeling over an unidentified woman.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The Justice Department mistakenly published personal details and unredacted photos of dozens of survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's sexual abuse.

[Annie Farmer]

I found my own date of birth, my own phone number.

[Brooke Gladstone]

From WNYC in New York. This is on the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone. For a reporter who's been on Epstein's trail for years, the quest for accountability goes on.

[Julie K. Brown]

There are huge pages of redactions, but there is evidence of corruption.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Also this week, the battle over an old statue of a conquistador in San Juan raises questions about who should represent Puerto Rico.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

There was an empty pedestal just sitting there and a pantheon of heroes to fill it. And yet the government insisted it should be Ponce de Leon up there.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's all coming up after this.

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[Brooke Gladstone]

From WNYC in New York. This is on the Media. Maika Loewinger's out this week on a reporting trip. I'm Brooke Gladstone. Last week, the Justice Department released the latest batch of documents related to Jeffrey Epstein's criminal case.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It took a law passed with near unanimous support in Congress to finally bring these documents to light.

[Todd Blanche]

Today we are producing more than 3 million pages, including more than than 2,000 videos and 180,000 images.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, formerly President Trump's personal attorney, announcing the release of the documents. In compliance with the Epstein Files Transparency.

[Todd Blanche]

Act, a rigorous process was undertaken to protect victims against any clearly unwarranted invasion of their personal privacy.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Clearly not rigorous enough.

[Annie Farmer]

I found my own date of birth, my own phone number.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Epstein survivor Annie Farmer speaking on nb.

[Annie Farmer]

But was also just really disturbed to see evidence of names of people that I knew did not want to be public.

[Brooke Gladstone]

There are also pictures former Prince Andrew.

[Julie K. Brown]

Seen in these photos kneeling over an unidentified woman.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The Justice Department says it's been working to take down the files with personal details about Epstein's survivors. Just a reminder, after serially trafficking and abusing girls and young women over the course of at least two decades, the DOJ says he harmed over 1,000 victims. Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein was arrested in 2019. He died in prison shortly thereafter. The feds ruled it a suicide. Ghislaine Maxwell, his girlfriend and accomplice, remains in prison serving a 20 year sentence. Meanwhile, the list of powerful men implicated in Epstein's files continues to grow, like.

[Julie K. Brown]

Elon Musk, who seemingly planned visits to Epstein's island. And Trump's Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Another very prominent person caught up in all this is Bill Gates.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

The DOJ also posted, then temporarily removed.

[Julie K. Brown]

Without explanation, a spreadsheet of complaints made.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

To the FBI, including unverified allegations about.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Both President Trump and former President Bill Clinton.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This week we learned that Bill and Hillary Clinton will provide testimony in front of the House Oversight Committee. It's all part of a broader push to learn, nearly seven years after Epstein's arrest and death, what was never learned at the time, who were his co conspirators and how he was allowed to get away with such widespread abuse for so long.

[Julie K. Brown]

We're learning new things every day.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Julie K. Brown is an investigative journalist at the Miami Herald and author of the substack the Epstein Files by Julie K. Brown, where she is continually covering the story. Her series of articles in 2018 revived Epstein's cold case and led to his arrest. She's thrilled the papers have been released, not so delighted with the pattern of redactions. The wrong people are being exposed and the wrong people are being protected.

[Julie K. Brown]

That is really not what was supposed to happen. The Epstein Files Transparency act was passed with the purpose of the public being able to see how Epstein got away with these crimes for so many years. And a big piece of that is the interactions between the prosecutors back in 2007 and Epstein and his lawyers and the trajectory of how did they come up with this lenient plea deal? And we can't see because the names of all the prosecutors, it's almost all of them redacted. They basically let him off the hook in Florida.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Basically off the hook. But he was charged with something, right?

[Julie K. Brown]

Yeah, he was charged with solicitation of a minor for prostitution. And he did serve a year in the county jail, but he wasn't in the county jail because he got worked and he spent all day in his office. Later we found out that he was even having young women come into his office so that he could have sex. So it wasn't much of a sentence. And to be honest with you, the charges that he would have faced would have put him in prison for life. So when we say he got off, he got off, considering that at the time they knew that he had raped about 40 girls.

[Brooke Gladstone]

There were grand Jury transcripts, hundreds of pages of testimony that Miami U.S. attorney Alex Acosta provided in 2019 to DOJ investigators. And it was Acosta who helped create that really lenient deal. So what else did you learn about Acosta?

[Julie K. Brown]

Well, we know that Acosta was then appointed as Labor Secretary under Donald Trump. And there is quite a bit of documents in here about an investigation by the Justice Department. And Acosta was questioned by these DOJ investigators in 2020. And his answers to the questions are remarkable. This is prob. The defining case of his career. Yet he doesn't remember this, doesn't remember that. It's unfathomable that he said that he didn't know that there were so many victims. I mean, how could he have not known that? At one point he is calling the victims women, and the investigator from the Justice Department had to take them to task and say, wait a minute, you keep saying women. These were 13 and 14 year olds. Right. There were so many nuances to the questioning and how he answered them that I think that that almost in itself tells a story.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And there were some missing binders of evidence, an 11 month gap in Acosta's incoming emails that coincided with the timeframe that Epstein's deal was being negotiated. He blames that on a technical glitch.

[Julie K. Brown]

Well, there were a lot of technical glitches, it seems, during this case. So these are the reasons why a lot of people are suspicious and skeptical of the way this case was handled back then. Because now we're finding out that there were glitches, that there were constant reminders that Epstein had his finger on these prosecutors. He tried to get dirt on all of them. He investigated the police chief. He hired private investigators to follow the victims.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is known.

[Julie K. Brown]

This is all known. It was all part of my original series in the Miami Herald. In 2018, Epstein had a playbook to basically try to corrupt everybody that he came in contact with in order to get away with his crimes.

[Adrian Florido]

Mm.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So Trump, we know he and Epstein were friends. There's been lots of speculation about whether the files would contain evidence of Trump's involvement in, or at least knowledge of, Epstein's crimes. Buried in the middle of this latest batch was a summary of one tip phoned into the FBI up about Trump's involvement with Epstein's activities. Unverified, but horrifying. After this tip sheet was released, it mysteriously disappeared. After multiple outlets like Midas Touch and Bellingcat, which copied it, shared the tip sheet, it suddenly reappeared in the documents. The DOJ calls the accusations sensationalist. And untrue. Sensationalist. Yeah, but how would they know that it was untrue? It doesn't seem like the FBI ever followed up.

[Julie K. Brown]

Look, anybody that is in law enforcement, does investigations, knows that you get crazy tips. That doesn't mean you ignore them. If I ignored every crazy tip that I got as a journalist, I wouldn't be sitting where I am right now. Then I'm not saying this tip involving Trump is true. That's not what I'm saying at all. But I'm saying it was up to the FBI and the Justice Department to nevertheless investigate them, no matter how strange they sounded. And I'll tell you why. I've interviewed a lot of these victims. They have been traumatized unbelievably, and some of their memories are twisted, okay? This is why these cases are very hard to successfully prosecute, quite frankly. But especially if they were very young when they were sexually abused, their stories change. They remember things later that they didn't remember back then. They're traumatized. I have found that while parts of some of these women's stories didn't add up, the key parts of the story added up. And this is common. I've talked to FBI experts who interview children that have been abused, and they say this is very, very common, that children misremember things. They say this happened here and it didn't happen there, it happened somewhere else. Things like that.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And you say that There were what, 302 victim interviews? And in the papers, there are no FBI notes, there are no transcripts of interviews. You can't see any evidence that they were addressed in any way?

[Julie K. Brown]

No, I haven't found them yet. But Remember, there are 3 million documents here. Sometimes I feel like we find things just by accident, but my guess is no. I just don't think they did. I never thought that. Authorities took this with a couple of exceptions. The Palm Beach Police Department did their job, but the State attorney and the Justice Department completely failed these victims. And as a result of their real incompetence, hundreds of other young women, and possibly even girls were subjected to sexual assault and rape.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Now, with regard to this tip sheet, you noted several similarities within these unverified accounts.

[Julie K. Brown]

Well, one of the patterns that we're seeing is that at the time that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were chummy and doing a lot of partying together, there were these model parties. They were at Epstein's mansion in New York, and they were also at Mar A Lago. And we're learning every day new information about these parties. That Epstein is sending women to these model parties. Because, remember, Epstein's way of entrapping these girls and young women, at least in the early 90s, was to say, I'm going to make you famous. I know people in the modeling industry. You should go to this party at Mar a Lago. So, you know, some of these tips are from women that say, I went to a model party, either at Jeffrey Epstein's mansion or at Mar a Lago, and I was raped. My experience is most of these women who have had this horrible thing happen to them, they don't really want to come out about it because it subjects them to all kinds of ridicule. My experience is they're not making this stuff up. Now, are there people out there that are disturbed that are doing that? Probably, but that's my point. You still have to investigate.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What about Katie Johnson? That's a pseudonym.

[Julie K. Brown]

Well, she had filed a lawsuit against Epstein and Trump in 2016, quite detailed. It included affidavits for two other people that supported her story. Of those two people went by pseudonyms as well. And she was about to go public. She did do some media interviews. Very few. Then there was a press conference called days before the 2016 election. She says that she had received threats and she just backed out. And we have never really heard another thing about her since. So it's hard to know. There's some evidence that her story was possibly manipulated by political operatives who were anti Trump in the run up to the 2016 election. That, of course, hurt her credibility. But it's really important to know that just because some political operatives took advantage of her doesn't mean that her entire story was false.

[Brooke Gladstone]

She never said that she lied.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

No.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And as you say, that's why we have the FBI.

[Julie K. Brown]

That's right. And I don't see any evidence, by the way, that the FBI ever spoke to her.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Do you expect anything Trump related will emerge from a million of these documents once you go through them?

[Julie K. Brown]

I just don't think we're gonna find out anything about him because I think that they were scrubbed, and I'm not saying he's guilty of anything. These files were probably scrubbed. So I don't think we're gonna find out unless there was a mistake made. It was clear that. That it was a mistake, that they let that out because they grabbed it back right away.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It was too late.

[Julie K. Brown]

Yeah, that should be telling right there. That they must have missed it.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In this recent release of papers, which I know you've been going through page by page, is There anything that you would direct listeners to that might affect what they think about this case or why they should think about it at all.

[Julie K. Brown]

There is evidence of corruption on the part of public officials or former public officials. You know, maybe there are people that don't understand the case as well as I do. I know all these people. Epstein kind of emailed in a code sometimes, but I could figure out what he's saying. And he had some of these people probably on his payroll in one way or another. And I'm seeing lots of evidence of that.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Some high profile people lost their jobs. Maxwell is serving a 20 year prison sentence. In terms of accountability, to me, this seems like pretty weak tea with so many participants, so many dubious investigations. What about we as a public? How should we feel right now?

[Julie K. Brown]

I think that everyone in the public should be writing every single one of their elected officials and demanding that this case not go away, that they stop politicizing it. This is a crime against children. And every single person in this country should be demanding that they start treating this case the way they should have in the beginning. And anybody who was involved or who helped Epstein by cutting him a deal needs to be looked at. All their bank accounts should be looked at. And the only way that that's going to happen is if the public demands it.

[Brooke Gladstone]

For many of our listeners, the worst facts of this story, the serial sexual assault, rape, sex trafficking of girls and young women. It's been known for a while. For listeners who have tuned this story out over the years, maybe because it's too awful, maybe because it involves such a vast group of powerful people, it almost feels like a conspiracy theory. What would you say is the importance in tuning back in?

[Julie K. Brown]

Well, you know, that's a very good question because everybody, including myself, we're very exhausted from all the bad news that's happening right now in our country and in our world. You know, even myself, I sometimes have to just put the covers over my head because it's too much, you know, it's too loud, too disturbing. But I always get out of bed and I keep going. Because if we let this case slide and all the people that helped him get away with this slide, it means we don't care about the most vulnerable people in our society. And that, to me, goes against everything our country has stood for.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You say that you've been flooded with tips during the latest round of coverage. These are victims.

[Julie K. Brown]

Some. They're mostly people. It's kind of cool in a way. There are all these, I don't know what you call Them citizen journalists or something. A lot of them are lawyers that are fascinated by this story. And they're all digging into the files because they're online. So one of the biggest tips I just got, somebody found an email. I'm not gonna tell you what it is. Cause I'm working on this story. They sent it to me and I'm like, oh, my go. I'm getting a lot of people simply just sending me things that they see in the files. I welcome that because you never know, I might not have seen it. Everybody keep digging, send me stuff.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What does it feel like to be focused on this story for so long? Does it drag you down?

[Julie K. Brown]

You know, it does at times. But then I'm really excited today because I just discovered a bunch of stuff and I'm like, yes, yes. I thought that this person was doing something wrong, you know, but what happens then?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Earlier in this story, Epstein weaseled out of charges. Now you have a Justice Department that is highly unlikely to bring any charges unless they're Democrats. Do you see accountability around the corner?

[Julie K. Brown]

I don't know, to be honest with you. You know, everybody says the lists and all these wealthy men that were involved, to me, I think the Justice Department should look at all these prosecutors back in Florida. Think about it. If they had put him in prison back then, we wouldn't be sitting here right now. Right. I think that's what's lost here. Going after the men, yes, we should do that too. But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we were failed by our criminal justice system years ago.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Julie, thank you very much.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Sure.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Julie K. Brown is an investigative journalist and she's been reporting on the Epstein files since 2017. She has a substack newsletter, the Epstein Files by Julie K. Brown. This is on the media.

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[Alana Casanova Burgess]

La Brega is back. This season we're spending time with the people and symbols that represent Puerto Rico. We're proud boricuas and what does that mean?

[Julie K. Brown]

And we are still in the fight.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

We're telling stories about champions from a place worth fighting for. Stories that will inspire you no matter where you're from. Como que el corazon Como que Wow. This is La Brega Campeones. Listen early and ad free with Futuro plus.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is ON the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone. Is this bad bunny week or what? Last Sunday, the Puerto Rican reggaeton singer won the Grammy for Album of the Year, the first for an all Spanish release. And this Sunday, he's headlining the Super Bowl. So it's a perfect week for the launch of season three of a podcast that on the media had a hand in creating La Brega, a show produced by Futura Media about Puerto Rican history and life in the US Colony. Every episode is produced in English and Spanish, and it's hosted by our former on the Media colleague, Alana Casanova Burgess. Episode one tells the story of a statue of a Spanish colonizer in Old San Juan, a statue that, of course, tells one particular story about Puerto Rico's colonial past. A few years ago, activists tore that statue down, hoping to start a conversation about Puerto Rico's colonial present that didn't go so well. Alana takes it from here.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It wasn't just any Monday morning in Puerto rico. It was January 24, 2022, and there was a lot of anticipation. For one thing, kids in Puerto Rico were going back to in person classes. Even though the pandemic was still in full swing, some students hadn't been in a classroom for two years because of the earthquakes in the south. And also on this Monday, the king was coming. El Rey Felipe sexto bien motivo de la celebracion de los de la ciudad.

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Capital de San Juan.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

The actual king of Spain, Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borboni Grecia, or King Felipe VI, was coming to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the founding of San Juan. His visit had been postponed from the year before, and the press was poised to cover three carefully choreographed days of meetings. They had the official schedule and they were ready to tell us about it. Those actos protocolares, all of that pomp and circumstance were in service of a bigger goal, according to TV analysts. Now, as a U.S. colony, Puerto Rico can't go around making trade deals with other countries. But the king was coming with Spain's Minister of Commerce. So talking heads on tv, like a former governor, kept saying the visit could spell investment for Puerto Rico. You know, deals, deals, deals. So the stakes were high. When we woke up that Monday morning, logged onto Twitter or Facebook or Instagram and saw photos nobody was expecting. According to police, the statue of the Spanish conquistador Juan Ponce de Leon in Old San Juan had been vandalized sometime around 4:30am Although vandalized seemed like an understatement, in photos we could see this green bearded sculpture lying on the ground, face up next to his white pedestal. He was broken in two. Ponce's legs had come off from his body just below his medieval puffy shorts. Part of his base had come off too, so he was surrounded by chunks of rubble. The real Ponce de Leon had been appointed by Spain as the first governor of puerto Rico in 1509. His statue had been pointing south, perhaps towards the original capital city, Caparra, with his other hand on his hip. But on the ground, it looked like the statue was holding his finger up in the air, as if he wanted to say just one more thing before everyone stopped listening. He looked small.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

Que paso? Quen y so esto porque.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

For many media commentators, like talk radio show host Ruben Sanchez on wkaq, the big reaction was horror, shock, dismay. The statue, he told Mayor Miguel Romero, had been there since he was a little boy, that actually it had been up in that plaza since the 1890s, right off the famous Calle San Sebastian, next to the Church of San Jose, the same church that King Felipe was scheduled to visit the very next Day, the mayor had the royal plane's arrival time at his fingertips. Sometime between 5:45 and 5:50 that very afternoon. Perhaps, the mayor said, the monarch doesn't even notice these kinds of things. Maybe the protest wasn't even about the royal visit, but it absolutely was. Even before 7am a group called the Fuerzas Libertarias de Boricain had taken responsibility for pulling the statue down. They hadn't been heard of before and they haven't been heard of since, but the message was no kings and no gringo invaders. They were linking Ponce de Leon, a symbol of Spanish colonialism, to people from the United States moving to Puerto Rico for tax incentives, displacing Puerto Ricans. Whoever was behind the Greek, they had gotten everyone's attention.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

I immediately called a friend and we came here like really, really early, just sort of to see it. I needed to see this statue on the ground.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Rafael Capo Garcia leads Memoria de Colonial, a group that gives counter narrative history tours.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

It was me and probably three other people interested in what had happened. And then you had the press, you had municipal employees outraged with how you could deface this monument.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Rafael already knew the statue really well. He used to be a high school history teacher, and he'd bring his students to old San Juan for field trips, teaching them to question whether violent colonizers were really heroes and champions who deserved to be on a pedestal. So when he saw Ponce de Leon lying on the ground, he felt hopeful.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

I was. I was hopeful. I was excited that we were going to finally have these conversations, much needed conversations.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

But that conversation about who really represents Puerto Ricans and Puerto Ricanness, it didn't seem like there was going to be time for it to happen, because by 8:30am Mayor Romero had already made a promise. In interviews, he sounded confident, even breezy, standing next to the empty pedestal, speaking with a reporter from Inuevoria. He expected the statue to be back up that very same day.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

So the municipal government had to run, had to hustle to get this statue up because. Because in their minds, they couldn't allow the king of Spain to visit San Juan and see this symbol of Spanish heritage on the ground.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Did you think that they would be able to do it?

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

I didn't think they would be able to do it because the statue was broken in half. Imagine, like, it takes them forever to fix a pothole, right?

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It was actually Mayor Romero who acknowledged the pothole problem that morning. The city would have to spend public funds on fixing the statue, he lamented. Instead of on fixing a pothole. There are some potholes in Puerto Rico that are old enough to have birthday parties. But the city was going to go ahead and try to repair Juan Ponce de Leon in less than a day. It felt ridiculous. Online, people were coping with the absurdity the usual way with memes.

[Todd Blanche]

I saw it like at 10am, 11am and I just started brainstorming.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Juan Pablo Diaz, who goes by Juan P. Is a political satirist and actor. He wanted to get something out about the statue really quickly.

[Todd Blanche]

I thought, well, I can do a parody of a song because the music is already there. I just had to change the words. Is the king of Spain. What is a good song? A good recognizable song? The statue is broke. Partillo corazon Partillo Alejandro Sands. Let's go.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Also rigged a bitmoji to look like a green bearded Ponce de Leon singing along to the song. There's a particular line he wrote. The statue sings, you all know that nothing will be the same without me. How will you remember colonialism? It's a punch. Because in Puerto Rico, nobody needs a statue to remember colonialism. It's not in the past. And so far, around 500 years of Puerto Rico's colonial past and present were being crammed into one single day. More and more layers were revealing themselves as the hours ticked by. Potholes, earthquakes, tax incentives, the literal king of Spain.

[Todd Blanche]

I think Puerto Ricans laugh to get less pissed off.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

And actually, the more humpy remembered the day with me, the more pissed off he got. He remembered that the coverage was taking the vandalism of the statue so seriously, as though it was a national catastrophe. And there was a disconnect between the way the government and the press were handling the story and the anger and mockery that we were seeing online. There were Valentine's Day cards like, you knock me over like Ponce de Leon and jokes about the statue being too high to get up off the floor at a party asking someone to get him a sandwich. People were playing with the idea of honoring other, more deserving figures instead photoshopping boricuas like Iris Chacon and Bad Bunny up on Ponce de Leon's old spa. Because the thing is, in Puerto Rico, there's no shortage of people who deserve to be honored on a pedestal. If you ask around old San Juan, or even in that same square plaza San Jose, you'll hear so many better options than Juan Ponce de Leon.

[Adrian Florido]

Any other person, honestly.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

But yeah, I just won't you let.

[Adrian Florido]

Like to see him?

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Baseball players, musicians, poets, Boxers, independence activists, Ricky Martin. I heard creative responses, ideas for things that aren't even human, like a tree or a goddess. I heard enthusiasm to the point of yelling. And I heard the names of tons of talented and distinguished boricuas, icons who inspire so much devotion.

[Julie K. Brown]

Wow.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Growing up, my mother would point out Puerto Ricans everywhere. She still does.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hi. I just wanted to tell you that I saw the Jimmy Fallon show and I. I heard the Planetos de La Cresta. Did you know they're from Cialis?

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

I can't remember my English father ever leaning over to celebrate someone's Englishness. But in Puerto Rico and its diaspora, we have a thing for people representing the archipelago, competing for it or championing it in some way. What does it mean and what does it take to champion Puerto Rico as a nation, unflinchingly and with boundless pride? Perhaps this is why the events of January 24, 2022, felt and feel so absurd. Because there was an empty pedestal just sitting there and a pantheon of heroes to fill it. And yet the government insisted it should be Ponce de Leon up there and that they could resurrect his statue in just a day. And the hours were ticking by. So, coming up after the break, remember, five hours to go until the king arrives. This is La Vega.

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[Alana Casanova Burgess]

La Brega is back. This season we're spending time with the people and symbols that represent Puerto Rico. We're proud boricuas and what does that mean?

[Julie K. Brown]

And we are still in the fight.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

We're telling stories about champions from a place worth fighting for. Stories that will inspire you no matter where you're from.

[Adrian Florido]

Wow.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

This is La Brega Campeones. Listen early and ad free with Futuro plus.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is ON the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone. We're listening to episode one of the new season of La Brega about the toppling of a statue and what happened next.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Here's Alana by 1pm A city crew had removed the statue of Ponce de Leon, or the two pieces of it from the plaza. No one knew the whereabouts of the shattered colonizer. But with five hours left until the king's arrival, we got a glimpse. Someone, it seemed likely that it was a municipal employee had recorded an eight second video that I can only describe as art. The opening frame shows one of those blue quilted blankets people use to protect precious cargo. A left hand pulls the fabric back and reveals Ponce de Leon's face and gives him a short, swift slap. It's hard to keep a straight face even just remembering the video. It has derailed our editorial meetings and makes it hard to even record these lines. The comedic timing is impeccable, but it's also deep in life. Ponce de Leon was a violent conquistador. As a statue, he was glorified and on an adorned pedestal. But now he was broken in two and casually slapped. That's not to say everyone agreed. It's typical when a controversial monument is vandalized for some people to see it as an affront to heritage and an effort to rewrite history. And there were people who certainly felt that way and were offended. Online, there were arguments in comment sections and on Facebook posts about what the statue really represented. The director of the Museum of San Juan was giving voice to that reaction in interviews. And that's because Juan Ponce de Leon isn't only a person who existed and who enslaved and killed indigenous people and Africans. He's also a symbol of Spanish heritage and part of a conversation about what it means to be Puerto Rican and who represents our origins. And the statue of him isn't just any monument. It says a lot, and I mean that literally. There's a short film from 1957 that was made by the Puerto Rican government and narrated by the statue. It tells the story of the Spanish conquest. It's a real rewriting of history with only scant acknowledgment of any violence. The last line makes a big claim. The people of Puerto Rico are a tree. And he, Ponce de Leon is the root.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Marvel.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

Del cualo Juan pon se de leon soy larrais.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

If the actual statue could really talk, it would tell a much more complicated story about Puerto Rican identity. Rafael Capo has written about it extensively.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

The earliest mention that I found was in 1877. A journalist in the conservative newspaper Eboletin Mercantile mentioned how Puerto Rico needed to honor its conquistador.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Right.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

And he mentioned that just like in Mexico, Hernan Cortes was the Mexican Moses, right, Who was venerated by all. Ponce Deon should receive the same treatment in Puerto Rico.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Four years later, there's another newspaper report about the statue. It has been made in New York and is arriving in San Juan. And the material is notable. It's made from two bronze cannons that had been used to defend Puerto Rico from a failed invasion by the British in 1797. This is one of the defining moments in Puerto Rican history when Sir Ralph Abercrombie attacks San Juan with a massive fleet and thousands of soldiers.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

The people that defend Puerto Rico are not just Spanish soldiers.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Black Puerto Ricans, Creoles, whites, men, women, everyone came together to fight off the British. And many historians say that this is the moment that the Puerto Rican nation was created. So when the statue was put up in 1882, those who had pushed for it were celebrating a connection to Spain with this other element baked in.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

For me, the statue and Hispanic heritage has always been really interesting because of how it sort of has become, not so much now, but definitely during the 20th century, when the US was trying to Americanize Puerto Ricans, a lot of them sought refuge in Hispanicity.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It was a way of saying, we.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

Aren'T Americans, we are something else. And rooting themselves in European and Hispanic Spanish heritage was sort of a defensive mechanism.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Being Spanish was special, different. For example, there's a debate that comes up in 1908 for the 400th anniversary of Ponce de Leon arriving in Puerto Rico.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

The official historian of Puerto Rico, Cayetano Colitoste is adamant that Juan Ponce de Leon has his own national holiday. He's a hero in Puerto Rico. And he specifically mentions, and I love this quote, he says, hopefully all conquistadors of the Indies would have been as benevolent as Juan Ponce de Leon was with the indigenous peoples of Puerto Rico.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

This is simply not true, because it's.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

Always that Puerto Rico is an exception, right? That we are somehow devoid of racism, because in our historical origins, thanks to Spanish civilization, we were conceived through mixture and tolerance from the beginning. And this narrative is always constructed by positing that there is an other that is racist and refuses to mix, and those are the British, and that is the United States.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

So at some point, though, you get up on the pedestal.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

So getting up on the pedestal was not the plan.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It was around 2pm, a little less than four hours before the King of Spain was slated to arrive in Puerto Rico. On this fateful day, municipal workers had been readying the base to receive the repaired statue. One of them had left a ladder.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

He put a ladder there and he left. And I looked at my friend and was like, well, it.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

And when Rafael got up there, he did the Ponce de Leon pose. A finger in the air and a hand on the hip.

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

Tamprontome pare ya riva Algo medijo a la pose. Ya tagi a la pose.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Were you trolling them a little bit?

[Rafael Capo Garcia]

I was definitely trolling. I had no intention of staying the entire day. And, yeah, I stayed there maybe for an hour.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It was long enough to make some news that a protester had delayed the installation of the statue. They took it very seriously. After Rafael's pose, some other protesters started arriving. It was getting close to the deadline.

[Laura Perez]

I didn't know how it was going to end.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Laura Perez is a journalist based in San Juan and an editor for La Brega. She had been reporting for a wire service that day and had been in the plaza for nearly five hours.

[Laura Perez]

At some point, I realized that there were policemen walking into the plaza. They were wearing riot gear and they were, well, intimidating.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It was 4:45 an hour to go.

[Laura Perez]

People actually started screaming at them. And what they were saying, something I've heard before in this kind of circumstances. How come you don't answer the call when my safety is at risk? But how come is it that you're here now when I'm protesting?

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

The riot police marched forward, forcing people out of their way and forming a line around the pedestal, creating space for the municipal workers who had just arrived with the repaired statue.

[Laura Perez]

When they started trying to get Juan Pose Leon out of the pickup, that's when I realized, oh, this is heavy and this is not an easy task.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Municipal workers brought a couple of cherry pickers with them. They're like a small crane with a basket on the end. They had wrapped yellow straps around the now intact statue so it looked like Ponce was wearing a zip lining harness. He was hanging from a crane. While workers in the baskets and on the ground tried to position him on the pedestal. There was a live stream so we could all watch through splayed fingers.

[Laura Perez]

All of a sudden the statue is like flying in the middle of the square. And he's just flying, but like he's crooked, not like a superhero that knows how to fly.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

He was at an angle as though he was really ziplining. And they couldn't quite place him as he swung around.

[Laura Perez]

And I'm not sure that they know what they're doing.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

An hour went by.

[Laura Perez]

It seemed that they were just improvising. They were just trying to make it work with whatever materials and tools they have for whatever it is that they do for a living, which is not putting statues back up on a pedestal. I'm sure about that.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Because the top part of the pedestal had also crashed down that morning. The base was now shorter and there didn't seem to be an easy way to install the statue.

[Laura Perez]

And they had to put it back down. And then Ponce Leon was again lying on the floor of the square where the day started it.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

And meanwhile, in the live feed from the airport, The king's plane had landed a few minutes early at 5:35. It was an unforgettable spectacle. A split screen with the king on one side getting a red carpet welcome and the conquistador statue on the other swinging from yellow nylon straps. The audience was Puerto Rico, even though it seemed like the show had been put on for someone else.

[Laura Perez]

We're always thinking about what others think of us, but not what we think of ourselves. That's Puerto Rico.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It was just before 7pm when the bronze statue of Juan Ponce de Leon was finally reinstalled. With his legs attached to his body and his finger pointing to the south, the king had yet to drive past the site. But something was wrong. The statue leaned to the left like a lost.

[Adrian Florido]

You couldn't in good faith stand back and look up at that pedestal and say, juan Ponce de Jones standing tall and proud and straight, you know.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Adrian Florido is a reporter at NPR who covers race and identity in the U.S. and when I told him I was starting this season with this story. He remembered a recording he had made for his side project, documenting Puerto Rico in sound.

[Adrian Florido]

A lot of times when you're recording and documenting, you don't know what it means yet. And I think that's true of what happened with the Ponce de Leon statue.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

Adrian had followed the movement to remove statues of Confederate generals and other figures. And this moment of reflection that a lot of communities around the world had had about their monuments.

[Adrian Florido]

Who are our heroes? You know, like, who are we honoring? Let's put the statue in a warehouse for a while till we decide what to do with it. A lot of places said, no, we're not putting that back up. It doesn't represent our values anymore. Other places have left the pedestals just blank and empty, you know, which forces a conversation about what used to be there and what isn't there now, and maybe what should be there. And maybe there, like, aren't answers to that question necessarily, but it forces people, at the very least, to reflect on it.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

That clearly wasn't happening here. There just wasn't going to be time to discuss what this particular statue says about Puerto Ricanness or Puerto Rico. Adrian got there just after it had been reinstalled, and there were protesters heckling and pointing out that, yes, the statue was most definitely crooked. And he spoke with the Director of Public Works for San Juan, Raul Garcia, Director de Operacione.

[Adrian Florido]

I asked, is that. Did you put it up the way it was before? Like this looks. People are saying it looks a little crooked. Is the word that Puerto Ricans use, is the word that we Mexicans use. He said, we put it back up exactly the way that it should be.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

He says the pedestal is missing, but that they'd be fixing it soon.

[Adrian Florido]

I was curious to know whether he'd had the conversation with anybody about whether that was the right decision to make, given what was happening in other places where these sorts of statues had been toppled. This is a statue that has been here since the 19th century. Of course we were going to put it back up.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

It's not a political situation. It's just simply that the administration decided to put it back up.

[Adrian Florido]

Can you talk about this without hesitation? Like, of course not.

[Alana Casanova Burgess]

We asked the municipal government for an interview and for comment, and they did not respond. The king did make a visit to the church next to the statue during his visit, but he didn't walk past. Seems unlikely that he saw it at all, given how far away his driver parked. We'll never know if the king of Spain noticed the tiny, crooked colonizer, but frankly, I don't think most people care if he saw it or not. Four years later, Ponce de Leon is still slanted. The city never did fix the pedestal. So the effect is that the statue is leaning to the left and is also lower to the ground, not down a peg. Literally. It's telling a different story than it used to be. I've heard a lot of fantasies about what could happen next. What if Ponce de Leon keeps leaning and just crashes to the ground again? And then what if the bronze from the cannons that the statue is made out of is so important to a story about Puerto Rican identity? What if it were melted down and forged into a new monument? Who would we replace him with? What story would that tell? Or what if the pedestal were left empty to invite us to reflect on who actually represents us? What would we learn about Puerto Ricanness if we really had that conversation about who has championed Puerto Rico and who our heroes are? So we're gonna do just that.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Season three of La Brega is all about about Puerto Rican Champions. New episodes will be released every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. And that's the Show. On the Media is produced by Molly Rosen, Rebecca Clark Callender and Candice Huang. Travis Manon is our video producer, our Technical Director is Jennifer Munson with engineering from Jared Paul. Eloise Blondio is our senior picture producer and our Executive producer is Katya Rogers. On the Media is produced by wnyc. Michael Oinger will be back next week. I'm brooke Gladstone.

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