No, Trump Isn't Cracking Down on Crime. Plus, How Ukrainians Tell Their Story of the War.

Summary

On the Media – "No, Trump Isn't Cracking Down on Crime. Plus, How Ukrainians Tell Their Story of the War."

Date: September 5, 2025
Hosts: Brooke Gladstone, Michael Loewinger
Podcast: WNYC Studios – On the Media

---

Episode Overview

This episode tackles two urgent narratives shaping current events:

1. The truth behind President Trump’s so-called “crackdown on crime,” analyzing how media coverage is framing—and often legitimizing—federal military deployments in Democratic-led cities.
2. How Ukrainians are fighting for control over their own war narrative, with in-depth reporting from Ukraine on the ways survivors, storytellers, and artists document trauma, drive international opinion, and seek justice.

Through interviews with political analysts, media researchers, war correspondents, Ukrainian officials, and filmmakers, the episode dissects how both power and memory are shaped through the stories we tell and who is permitted to tell them.

---

Segment 1: “No, Trump Isn’t Cracking Down on Crime”

Main Points

• Federal Troop Deployments and Framing (01:31–06:29):
  The podcast critiques President Trump’s justification for deploying federal troops in cities like Washington D.C., Los Angeles, and threats toward Chicago and others under the banner of fighting crime, examining how the media often repeats or amplifies the administration’s narratives.

  • Discussion of legal challenges: D.C. and L.A. lawsuits claim the occupation is unconstitutional, violating the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act ([02:41]).

  • The actual crime rates in cities like Chicago are dropping—a nuance often buried deep in news reports or missing altogether.

• Media’s Role in “Manufacturing Consent” (04:26–06:29):

  • Jameson Fozer (political consultant/media critic) argues the media are not just passively reporting, but “increasing support” for Trump’s actions by framing them as responses to crime—not power grabs.

    • “The public does not currently agree with Donald Trump or what he's doing. But the media in the way they're covering this story is increasing support for it by suggesting he's trying to fight crime.” – Jameson Fozer ([04:33])

  • Even fact-checking can reinforce Trump's framing, as it keeps the focus on crime rather than on an abuse of power.

• Polling, Political Narratives, and Democratic Response (09:07–13:57):

  • Polls show more Americans disapprove (56%) than approve of sending the National Guard to D.C., even when questions are slanted toward Trump's framing ([09:52]).

  • “This narrative that this is a sure political winner for Trump, it's kind of another example of the media trying to manufacture consent for what Trump is doing.” – Jameson Fozer ([10:41])

  • Some Democrats, like Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker, push back and call for honest coverage: “Do not come to Chicago. You are neither wanted here nor needed here. If you hurt my people, nothing will stop me... from making sure that you face justice under our constitutional rule of law.” – J.B. Pritzker ([12:12])

  • Others, guided by strategists like David Shor, avoid addressing the federal occupation directly, focusing instead on the economy.

  • The importance of media framing: poorly contextualized coverage can lead, unwittingly, to public support for authoritarian measures masquerading as crime-fighting.

• Urgency of Accurate Framing (13:48–14:15):

  • Fozer warns: “If we don't [get the framing right], you really risk having a country involuntarily agreeing to slide into fascism. And by involuntarily, I mean based on false pretenses, not really knowing what they're agreeing to.” ([13:54])

Notable Quotes

• “By manufacturing consent, I mean, the public does not currently agree with Donald Trump or what he's doing. But the media... is increasing support for it by suggesting he's trying to fight crime.”
  — Jameson Fozer ([04:33])

• “Even when the media is debunking some of his assertions around crime, they're still privileging the lie that this is about crime.”
  — Jameson Fozer ([05:44])

• “If we don't [get the language and framing right], you really risk having a country involuntarily agreeing to slide into fascism.”
  — Jameson Fozer ([13:54])

---

Segment 2: “How the Intellectual Right Imagines a Post-Liberal America”

Main Points

• Rise of the Far-Right Ideologues (16:20–29:19):

  • Vox’s Zach Beecham reviews a recent panel of right-wing thought leaders—Christopher Rufo, Christopher Caldwell, Patrick Deneen, and Curtis Yarvin—debating their visions for a more authoritarian America.

  • Curtis Yarvin is described as the most extreme:

    • He proposes that certain citizens (e.g., “gangbangers in Baltimore”) should have their lives controlled by churches acting as government proxies, complete with drug tests, assigned work, and location tracking ([19:00]).

    • “Your minister can drug test you, he can assign you work and he can put an airtag on you.” – Yarvin ([19:17])

    • The rest of the panel offers no objection on moral or constitutional grounds, only practical ones.

  • The conversation normalizes authoritarian and openly racist ideas, with terms like “authoritarian” or “racist” losing their stigmatizing power within these circles ([20:24]).

• Constitutional Subterfuge and Historical Revisionism (20:32–22:46):

  • The panel discusses repealing the 14th Amendment and resurrecting state power to enforce religious rules—a fundamental distortion of American constitutional tradition.

• Shifting Moderate vs. Extreme (25:10–30:33):

  • The debate is less about whether to be authoritarian, and more about how naked, aggressive, or “weird” that authoritarianism should become.

    • “The inter right argument that they're having is not over whether we should be authoritarian. It's over just how naked, how aggressive and how weird that authoritarianism should be.” – Zach Beecham ([29:19])

• Is the U.S. Already Authoritarian? (30:33–33:10):

  • Beecham argues the U.S. is in a “degraded form of democracy”—delegative democracy—which may serve as a waystation to full authoritarianism, pending the outcome of future elections and institutions’ resilience against executive abuse.

    • “We are a degraded form of democracy. And whether it goes further, whether we take the next step, I mean, ultimately, the first real big test will be the midterm elections.” ([33:10])

---

Segment 3: “How Ukrainians Tell Their Story of the War” (field reporting by Deborah Amos)

Main Points

• Setting the Narrative on the Ground (36:19–41:22):

  • Deborah Amos reports from Kyiv and the devastated suburb of Bucha, where atrocities occurred during Russian occupation.

  • Residents and officials see media openness not just as transparency, but as a tool of resistance.

    • “When we were burying heroes and when we were burying unknown killed civilians, we did it with the press to record what really happened.” – Mikhail No Skorekivska, Deputy Mayor of Bucha ([41:22])

  • Bucha’s story went global because officials deliberately invited international media—a contrast to other towns that closed their doors.

• Memorialization and Bearing Witness (41:32–44:13):

  • Bucha’s new memorials, ongoing reconstruction, and documentaries help cement the narrative of what happened and resist Russian denial and propaganda.

• Art, Trauma, and Film (46:17–49:10):

  • The movie Bucha dramatizes the experiences of survivors, sparking debate in Ukraine about the timing and role of such portrayals in an ongoing war.
  • Oleksandr Schur (screenwriter):
    • “A movie, it's not a monument. If you don't want want to watch it, you don't watch it but many.” ([50:09])

• International vs. Internal Audience (49:10–50:27):

  • Films and documentaries have dual goals: urging international support while serving as future testimony for Ukrainians themselves.

• Narrative as Geopolitical Weapon (51:11–52:55):

  • Yaroslav Lodigin’s (director) documentary A Faith Under Siege aims at U.S. conservatives, countering Russian propaganda about Christians in Ukraine, successfully changing opinions among evangelical viewers.
  • “Before the very conservative evangelical would be asked, you want to help Ukraine? ...they would say no. And then if they see this movie, they turn their minds completely and they would rather ask their senator congressman to support Ukraine.” – Yaroslav Lodigin ([52:03])

• Documentaries as Therapy and Testimony (53:06–54:48):

  • With justice for war crimes likely far away, storytelling provides both a form of therapy for survivors and a bridge between evidence, memory, and possible future accountability.

    • “The amount of crimes in this country is so big. In this way, documentary works a bit therapy.” – Elizavitha Smith ([54:41])

• Ongoing Protests, Memory, and the Battle for Narrative (55:05–57:41):

  • Weekly protests press for the release of Ukrainian prisoners. The fear: that atrocities might be forgotten or denied over time as in Cambodia or the U.S. South.
  • Final message: Ukrainians refuse to cede narrative control, determined to keep telling the truth until justice is more than just a story.

---

Notable Quotes

• "Without media, we will not be so successful now. And Bucha could be the model of Ukrainian success in future."
  — Mikhail No Skorekivska ([42:31])

• "We are outnumbered. We have less money, resources, weapons, but we have some ability to tell stories."
  — Yaroslav Lodigin ([52:44])

• "We are the products of narratives. It's hard to imagine what would be with the whole concept of justice without this work."
  — Yaroslav Lodigin ([52:58])

• "The amount of crimes in this country is so big. In this way, documentary works a bit therapy."
  — Elizavitha Smith ([54:41])

---

Key Timestamps

• 01:31–06:29: Federal troop deployments, media framing, legal and political pushback.
• 06:29–14:15: Media’s complicity, polling, Democrat responses, and dangers of framing.
• 16:20–33:10: Panel of right-wing intellectuals, normalization of authoritarian ideas, and U.S. democracy's state.
• 36:19–44:13: Ukraine: Field reporting, Bucha as global symbol, media as resistance.
• 46:17–54:48: Ukrainian art, survivor documentaries, global impact, therapy, and future justice.
• 55:05–57:41: Protests, the stakes of narrative, refusal to let atrocities be denied or erased.

---

Tone and Style

• The reporting is direct, at times urgent, and driven by skepticism toward powerful actors and media blind spots.
• Ukrainian voices center dignity, trauma, and agency; the tone is resilient and pragmatic amid sorrow.
• The show’s critical, investigative spirit persists: “examining how the media sausage is made.”

---

For Listeners

This episode provides:

• A rigorous deconstruction of media complicity in dangerous political narratives at home.
• A moving, granular look at Ukrainian society’s struggle to claim and safeguard the story of its survival and suffering.
• Practical lessons on the power (and peril) of framing—whether political or personal—in shaping the world we inhabit.

Whether you are concerned about democracy in America or justice abroad, this episode will deepen your understanding of the battles fought not only with arms, but with stories.

Transcript

[Jameson Fozer]

This isn't about crime. That's not what Donald Trump is doing. He's seizing power.

[Michael Olinger]

President Trump is threatening to deploy federal troops to more cities and news outlets are falling for his justifications. From WNYC in New York, this is on the media. I'm Michael Olinger. Four of maga's leading intellectuals just met to debate their visions of a more right wing America.

[Zach Beecham]

The inter right argument that they're having is, is not over whether we should be authoritarian. It's over just how naked, how aggressive and how weird that authoritarianism should be.

[Michael Olinger]

Plus why a Ukrainian mayor invited the press to her town in the aftermath of a mass tragedy.

[Brooke Gladstone]

When we were burying heroes and when we were burying unknown killed civilians, we did it with the press to record what really happened.

[Michael Olinger]

It's all coming up after this.

[Zach Beecham]

Foreign.

[Michael Olinger]

Supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Michael Olinger]

And I'm Michael Ohinger.

[Zach Beecham]

We turn now to the growing presence.

[Jameson Fozer]

Of the National Guard on the streets.

[Zach Beecham]

In the nation's capital.

[Michael Olinger]

The president has seized control of law, order and security from the city authorities who he has framed as failing liberals.

[Zach Beecham]

The press says he's a dictator he's trying to take over. No, all I want is security for our people.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Get out of our neighborhood.

[Deborah Amos]

You can see in multiple videos federal agents wearing masks during arrests in the District in recent weeks.

[Michael Olinger]

The whistles are a new community tactic.

[Zach Beecham]

To alert people that ICE agents are in the area.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You have to stand up to the.

[Jameson Fozer]

People who are telling you to do.

[Deborah Amos]

This because it's a wrong.

[Zach Beecham]

Get her out of here. Get her out of here.

[Michael Olinger]

He says to a neighbor woken by the commotion.

[Jameson Fozer]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Zach Beecham]

D.C. attorney General Brian Schwab now suing the Trump administration over the deployment of the National Guard troops here in Washington. As we approach month one of this.

[Deborah Amos]

Federal takeover, the city's top legal officials saying the surge of troops amounts to a forced military occupation.

[Michael Olinger]

The D.C. lawsuit came on the heels of another legal battle in Los angeles where some 300 soldiers are still stationed.

[Brooke Gladstone]

A federal judge says President Trump's use.

[Deborah Amos]

Of the National Guard in Los Angeles was illegal. In a 52 page filing that was out today, U.S. district Judge Charles Breyer found the administration broke an 1878 act that prohibits the use of military for domestic law enforcement.

[Michael Olinger]

So far, it's not clear whether these challenges will deter the president, who spent the last week posting lies and exaggerations about the Windy City, new attacks on.

[Zach Beecham]

Chicago from President Trump, and a new promise to impose federal law enforcement to fight crime on the ground. He said, quote, chicago is the worst.

[Michael Olinger]

And most dangerous city in the world by far. He added, I will solve the crime.

[Zach Beecham]

Problem fast, just like I did in.

[Michael Olinger]

D.C. chicago will be safe again and soon.

[Zach Beecham]

We could do that with New York, we could do it with Los Angeles.

[Michael Olinger]

The president in the Oval Office on Wednesday, maybe Louisiana.

[Zach Beecham]

And you have New Orleans, which has a crime problem. We'll straighten that out in about two weeks. It'll take us two weeks. I would like D.C. to be a test case for whether we can go.

[Michael Olinger]

Into other cities where far too many.

[Zach Beecham]

People are being murdered and help to.

[Jameson Fozer]

Drive down the violent crime rate there.

[Michael Olinger]

As well as conservative pundit Clay Travis on Fox News last month, who along with many others in the right wing press, have been aping Trump's rhetoric.

[Zach Beecham]

We need full military occupation of these cities until the crime desists, period. I think what's scary to the Dems.

[Jameson Fozer]

Is not the military. It's the fact that they know this is going to work and that it's already working.

[Michael Olinger]

But even coverage from outlets like cnn, the Daily Beast, the New York Times, the Washington Post and others have been intentionally or not making Trump's case for him.

[Jameson Fozer]

The major media narratives that we're seeing are false.

[Michael Olinger]

Jameson Fozer is a political consultant and media critic. He argues that the press is trying to manufacture consent.

[Jameson Fozer]

By manufacturing consent, I mean, the public does not currently agree with Donald Trump or what he's doing. But the media in the way they're covering this story is increasing support for it by suggesting he's trying to fight crime. Everybody would like crime to be lower, even though it's been going down for the last couple years already. And so it's creating this false reason to suppress support what he's doing.

[Michael Olinger]

A recent headline from ABC reads, quote, 58 shot over Labor Day weekend in Chicago as governor rejects Trump threat to send National Guard. That piece quoted the President several times, but waited till the second to last paragraph to offer this context. Quote, violent crime in Chicago has dropped significantly in the first half of the year, according to official data released by the city. Shootings are down 37% and homicides have dropped 32% compared to the first half of 2024. The Chicago Sun Times recently put out this headline Chicago sees fewest summer murders since 1965, even as Trump cites high crime. No one's arguing that violent crime isn't a problem in Chicago or in D.C. but why is this context so hard to find?

[Jameson Fozer]

A couple great examples there of really lousy media coverage of this, and the first one was particularly bad because it spent essentially the entire very lengthy Argum telling this story about crime being out of control and then just sort of at the very end, almost as an aside, oh, by the way, crime's actually decreasing significantly. That obviously gives people a very skewed sense of what's going on. But even that second article, which, you know, that's a better headline, it does make clear that crime is falling contrary to Trump's narrative. Even that is helping Trump. It's keeping the conversation focused where he wants it, which is on crime, as though what he's doing is about crime, but it's really not. So even when the media is debunking some of his assertions around crime, they're still privileging the lie that this is about crime.

[Michael Olinger]

Similarly, the New York Times recently ran a headline, quote, crime festers in Republican states while their troops patrol in Washington. I saw some praise for this framing, but I guess it might still run afoul of what you were describing.

[Jameson Fozer]

That's a decent headline for a bad article that probably shouldn't exist. Although it correctly notes that many cities and Republican led states have crime rates comparable to Washington's, it doesn't really emphasize the logical conclusion to that, which is Trump is deploying troops to fight Democrats, not crime. And then it endorses the legitimacy and really the effectiveness of using military troops to police Americans by suggesting that Republican governors might want this too. It kind of dismisses what it calls Democrats rhetoric about the specter of uninvited occupying forces. Like this isn't actually happening. Even though Donald Trump has already sent uninvited forces to occupy Los Angeles. And that Los Angeles move, by the way, has already been ruled by a judge illegal. So in kind of dismissing this as Democrats rhetoric that isn't really coming coming true, that article really drops the ball there.

[Michael Olinger]

But these crime trends do matter, right? Like, for instance, Trump justified the DC Deployment by pointing to a surge in violent crime in 2023, though naturally he failed to acknowledge that it's fallen since then. And it's nearly half of what it was in 2010. It is going down. And D.C. mayor Muriel Bowser has already kind of thanked the president and credited him with helping crime go down. Maybe it would have gone down regardless. It seems like he's setting the table to take credit and justify more military deployment in the future.

[Jameson Fozer]

No, that's exactly what he wants to do. And even Bowser. There was a Washington Post headline about Bowser's reaction just this week. It was, bowser Welcomes Federal Enforcement Indefinitely. First of all kind of overstates what the mayor of Washington, D.C. actually did, which is she issued an executive order that said if Trump's going to keep troops in D.C. local law enforcement will coordinate with them to try to minimize problems. And the Post framed that as an invitation, as though DC Actually wants Trump to continue. And that's a significant overstatement because just Thursday morning news broke that DC Is actually suing the federal government over the occupation, saying that Trump has run roughshod over a fundamental tenet of American democracy.

[Michael Olinger]

In addition to buying into Trump's framing about crime, you believe that some in the mainstream press have further hamstrung any kind of political response to this occupation by claiming that standing up to the president would hurt Democrats politically.

[Jameson Fozer]

There's this really common media narrative that Donald Trump's actions here are like a brilliant political move that sets a trap for Democrats. Here's one from Chris Cilliza and the Daily Beast. The DC Crime trap Trump is setting for Democrats. And then a similar one. Trump is leaning in on crime. Democrats need a better response, and fast. That's from Politico Forbes. Could Trump's crime crackdown help him politically? Democrats, Democrats blasting effort, risk backfire.

[Michael Olinger]

And Anderson Cooper echoed the sentiment on his show last month.

[Jameson Fozer]

It's the conflict Democrats face when talking about the policing in the District of Columbia.

[Zach Beecham]

Do you point out statistics of, oh, it's a 30 year low, and thereby sound like you're saying, oh, there's not.

[Jameson Fozer]

A crime problem in Washington, D.C. when.

[Zach Beecham]

There'S a crime problem in everywhere.

[Jameson Fozer]

There's a couple really big problems with that. The first one being, again, this isn't about crime. That's not what Donald Trump is doing. But the second is that there have been at least four national polls released in the last couple of weeks that have found more Americans disapprove of Trump's handling of crime than approve of it. Quinnipiac, which is one of the major national polling outfits, found 56% of voters disapprove of sending the national guard to Washington, D.C. and I should note that's even when the question was framed as an effort to fight crime. So that's a poll question that's biased in Trump's favor, just the same way this media coverage has been. And Even then, only 41% of people approved of Donald Trump's actions. So this narrative that this is a sure political winner for Trump, it's kind of another example of the media trying to manufacture consent for what Trump is doing.

[Michael Olinger]

The polling question is so fascinating because the way it was framed is effectively, do you support Donald Trump bringing in the National Guard to help alleviate crime in these cities? It wasn't just Quinnipiac. This framing was also put to respondents in similar surveys from Reuters, Ipsos and also AP norc. So much of the public opinion is framed. Do you support the president fighting crime?

[Jameson Fozer]

Right. If anybody has ever worked in polling or worked on polls, which I have, one of the basic rules is you don't write a question that gives respondents a reason to support one position without balancing it against either a reason to oppose that position or a reason to support a different position. But that's what these polls are doing. They're saying, do you support Donald Trump's efforts to fight crime? And even then, the public rejects what Trump is doing.

[Michael Olinger]

And yet there's reason to believe that this setting the trap narrative around crime has been internalized by powerful, influential people within the dnc. Who is David Shor and how has he been advising Democrats on how to respond to this stuff?

[Jameson Fozer]

David Shore is a Democratic political strategist and data guru. He's advised Democrats to not talk about this issue and to talk about the economy instead. And I think some Democrats have followed his guidance there and some have not. J.B. pritzker, the governor of Illinois, most notably, has been really forceful in denouncing what Donald Trump is doing and speaking very plainly about it.

[Zach Beecham]

Mr. President, do not come to Chicago. You are neither wanted here nor needed here. If you hurt my people, nothing will stop me, not time or political circumstance, from making sure that you face justice under our constitutional rule of law.

[Michael Olinger]

Following that, on Tuesday, MSNBC pundit Joe Scarborough pitched a kind of strange idea on his show.

[Zach Beecham]

I actually think that J.B. pritzker should do something radical. I think he should pick up the.

[Jameson Fozer]

Phone, call the president and say, let's partner up. These are the most dangerous parts of my state.

[Zach Beecham]

Let's work together to save lives.

[Jameson Fozer]

Bad advice. One of the things I've been wanting to see more of for a very long time is prominent Democrats explicitly call out bad media coverage. Fritzker has done that in basically every significant public comment I've seen him make in the last couple of weeks. He's cajoling, urging almost pleading with news organizations to cover this really clearly and honestly and tell folks the threat that it poses.

[Michael Olinger]

In fact, he did that very thing in response to Scarborough earlier this week.

[Zach Beecham]

I refuse to pretend that any of this is normal. I refuse to fall into the pundit trap that demands we sacrifice vital constitutional rights if it's being done in the fake guise of fighting crime.

[Jameson Fozer]

We all have to navigate the reality that we're in right now, where we have a government that's trying to seize power through an aggressive propaganda campaign. Like you can't play along with that and succeed.

[Michael Olinger]

Why is it so important that we get the language and framing on this right?

[Jameson Fozer]

Because if we don't, you really risk having a country involuntarily agreeing to slide into fascism. And by involuntarily, I mean based on false pretenses, not really knowing what they're agreeing to. It goes back to the idea of manufacturing consent, of getting the public to accept something that they wouldn't actually accept if they knew what it was.

[Michael Olinger]

Jameson, thanks so much.

[Jameson Fozer]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Michael Olinger]

Jameson Fozer writes the newsletter Finding Gravity.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the Media.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

On the Media is supported by Hims and Hers. If you're someone who values choice in your money, your goals and your future, then you know how frustrating traditional health care can be. One size fits all treatments, preset dosages, zero flexibility. It's like trying to budget with a fixed expense you didn't even choose. But now there's another way with Hims and Hers. Hims and hers is reimagining healthcare with you in mind. They offer access to personalized care for weight loss, hair loss, sexual health and mental health. Because your goals, your biology and your lifestyle are anything but average. No membership fees, no surprise fees, just transparent pricing and real care that you can access from anywhere. Feel like your best self thanks to quality, convenient care through HIMS and HERS. Start your free online visit today at himss.com OTM that's H I M S.com OTM to find your personalized treatment options. Not available everywhere. Prescription products require provider consultation. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions.

[Deborah Amos]

This week on the.

[Zach Beecham]

New Yorker Radio Hour, Anna Wintour on the changing of the guard at Vogue.

[Deborah Amos]

Well, I think fashion is always important.

[Jameson Fozer]

It's a question of self expression.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And forgive me David, but how boring would it be if everybody was just.

[Deborah Amos]

Wearing a dark suit and a white shirt all the time?

[Zach Beecham]

Anna Wintour joins me next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcast.

[Michael Olinger]

This is on the Media. I'm Michael Loewinger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. So we just offered analysis of the latest muscle flexing by the Trump White House. The latest attempt to wield power it doesn't legally possess. But to what end? For the big thinkers of the far right, the expanding power of the executive goes far beyond Trump to the ultimate goal of a sustainable quote, post liberal America. Zach Beecham, a senior correspondent at Vox, got an unvarnished look at what that might mean when he happened upon a recent panel hosted by the Intercollegiate Studies Institute. Created to educate and connect young conservatives, it featured four deeply influential members of the Magaverse sharing their visions for a very different America.

[Zach Beecham]

All four of these people are extremely influential. Chris Ruffo has been a leading policy voice in the Republican right. But all of these other people also have influence. There's another Chris, Christopher Caldwell. His work on civil rights has prefigured a lot of what the Trump administration has done with civil rights law and the Justice Department Civil Rights division. Then you have Patrick Deneen. He's a professor at Notre Dame. Deneen is an avowed influence of J.D. vance. Vance went to an event for the book Regime Change when it came out.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In D.C. you wrote that in Regime Change Deneen merely proposes replacing liberal elites with conservative ones. I guess Vance like that.

[Zach Beecham]

He described himself as a post liberal who saw regime change as his purpose of his time in government.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Let's move to Curtis Yarvin because he may be the most extreme.

[Zach Beecham]

Oh, he is. There's no doubt about that. Yarvin is very important in the tech right scene. People like Peter Thiel, Marc Andreessen and Elon Musk. Musk. Most importantly, the Washington Post published a piece describing Doge as being inspired by Garvin's ideas. He really believes that the purpose of the state should be ordered towards encouraging economic dynamism, innovation and stratification between better and worse kinds of people. You will hear over the course of this conversation who he believes the better and worse types of people to be.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So let's get there right now. What did they propose?

[Zach Beecham]

I want to start with what I think the wildest exchange in the whole interview. It's about 20 minutes in and Yarvin proposes the schema where there's a pre modern America and a modern America and those consist of two different kinds of Americans and one of those groups is basically capable of self governance and managing their own lives. And another one, the pre modern America needs the whip hand of community or the state Telling them what to do in order to function properly. He says, let's take a. The exact term he uses is gangbanger in Baltimore. And he then starts talking about a system by which churches will be put in charge of this person's life.

[Jameson Fozer]

You have to be part of, of a society. And being part of a society means that you are going to get your welfare check or however you support yourself from your minister. Your relationship with the state is intermediated through your church. Your minister can drug test you, he can assign you work and he can put an airtag on you. He can tell you where to go, where not to go.

[Brooke Gladstone]

That sounds like either being in prison or being enslaved. And not to mention how illegal it is.

[Zach Beecham]

Oh, extremely illegal. I've struggled with exactly how to term it. Slavery is, it's not quite right, but it's close. Maybe making somebody into a ward of the church, property of the church, a prisoner of the church. All of those seem rough approximations for what we're talking about. But the point is it is a schema for the state empowering religious institutions to be dictators of individual people. That's what he wants. And the rest of the panel says nothing about that. Not in the sense that they don't comment on it. They have thoughts, but those thoughts are not. This is incredibly authoritarian and racist and I can't believe we're talking about this. No one even comes close to using those terms in these kinds of right wing discussions. Calling someone an authoritarian or a racist has no force. Those terms that have been designed, that have been stigmatized specifically to prevent the recurrence of historical evils, those terms have become destigmatized on the right. They no longer have their force.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So the man you call the moderate on the panel, Caldwell, notes that Yarvin's proposal would probably be stymied by the Constitution.

[Zach Beecham]

We can't establish a religion and the rules have to be the same for everyone. Whereas I think you're looking at something where you have a two part country, you're distinction between modern and traditional people. In fact, I think you have to Repeat, repeal the 14th Amendment.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And then Yarvin responds.

[Jameson Fozer]

Religion, of course in the original Constitution was established and the first amendment was written to allow for the establishment of religion in the states now that they had established churches until what, the 1830s. So yeah, it went away of its own accord, but it was not forbidden by the original Constitution. It was an interpretation of the 14th Amendment. It's not stated in the 14th Amendment.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So I looked up the establishment clause in the Constitution and it explicitly prohibits the establishment of an official religion. And the second clause of the first Amendment immediately follows the establishment clause by saying Congress should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the exercise thereof. Is he giving a kind of bizarro interpretation of the Constitution or what?

[Zach Beecham]

I mean, look, it is true that in the colonial era some of the colonies had officially religions right or state sanctioned religions. And some of those persisted after independence, but not for very long. This was not a major part of the American political tradition. And it went away, I think, along the lines of the self understanding of the first Amendment and of the American state, which was that religion is not something to be governed by political institutions. Jefferson was very clear and Madison in their fight over religion in the Virginian Constitution about what their vision was not just for Virginia, but for America, which was. Which was a secular state, right. Which is a wall of separation between churches and states and Washington. There's a very famous letter that he writes a Jewish community in Rhode Island. He outlines his vision of religious toleration not just for Jews and not just in Rhode island, but for all religious minorities across the United States. To portray the idea of the American Constitution as one that wanted to, for any reasons other than political convenience or to avoid a fight, allow there to be kinds of established religions, is to totally misread the character of the founding.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But Yarvin, he started on this idea of giving clergy control over these pre modern American gangbangers by qualifying it, saying he's coming at it from an un American angle. But he seems deeply taken with the ideas and systems of Elizabethan England, where you would be penalized for not going to church every week.

[Jameson Fozer]

You were actually fined, your name was written down in a little book. It was, in a way, it was a system of. You would almost call it totalitarian in a way. They certainly did not have a free press at that time. And yet Elizabethan society produced the most amazing sort of artistic works of all of history.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah, but Genghis Khan had freedom of religion, wrote a legal code, unified a nation, promoted a kind of meritocracy. Dictators can do amazing things, right?

[Zach Beecham]

This is a characteristic tick of Yarvin's One that I've noticed a lot in his work is that he throws out these historical references and he expects people not to be familiar with them because his knowledge of the world is a mile wide and a centimeter deep. Perhaps there's a reason practices like that died out, because they're corrosive of not only a well functioning society, but of basic human freedom that people want. But I don't want to just get on my soapbox and say, I think Curtis Yarvin is bad, because that lends it a degree of seriousness it ought not to have. These are not actual arguments. They're the musings, the ravings of a man who is a sort of glorified Internet troll, but has managed to carve out a niche of success for himself by convincing wealthy people in tech that their success should be a model for America. By doing that, he has turned himself into someone who gets invited to these kinds of conversations and then he changes the conversation. I mean, look, before the ascent of Curtis Yarvin, a gathering of Dineen, Ruffo and Caldwell would be considered a relatively right wing gathering. Yarvin is. He's beyond what even those people are willing to do. So much of the conversation ends up being a debate between Yarvin and the other three. And yet Yarvin is setting the terms for the conversation. It's not that they're rejecting the authoritarianism, they're really only objecting to this sort of anti American quality.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But isn't that the point of this discussion, that true democracy isn't their goal, nor is upholding equal opportunity under the law? They imply, they sometimes more than imply that that's the moment where America went wrong.

[Zach Beecham]

Well, equal opportunity, yes. Right. But they think that's severable from democracy. It's actually, I think, at the heart of Caldwell's work. For the past several years, he's gone around the world and written about various different right wing populist movements, but he invariably defines them as actually true exemplars of democracy because they speak to, you know, the silent majority, or perhaps the not so in the case of India, the not so silent majority when it comes to minority rights. And so his view is that a politics that caters to ethnic majorities is a true democratic politics.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I see.

[Jameson Fozer]

Right.

[Zach Beecham]

Even if what they propose are restrictions on freedoms that we would see as fundamentally undemocratic.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So even though the polls all say that a lot of what, what's been going on, the mass firings at Doge, the deportations of non criminal immigrants, the family separations, these are not popular, but these men believe that this is what America wants.

[Zach Beecham]

Yeah, I mean, there's a really telling moment late in the conversation where Rufo and Caldwell, who've mostly been agreeing, get into a fight about Doge. Right. And the fight is not about whether Doge was a good idea or not. The fight was about branding. The terms are whether it was good for Doge to bill itself as an.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Ideological purge openly or an efficiency engine.

[Zach Beecham]

Right.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Caldwell says it's a much less acceptable.

[Zach Beecham]

Story to present to the public.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You have to.

[Zach Beecham]

We're saving money. That's right. Right. But he agrees that it's an ideological purge, what he and Rufo both call systematic extirpation of liberals from the state.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Now, around the 40 minute mark, the conversation turns to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. Ruffo worked closely with DeSantis, particularly his attempt to impose state controls on higher education, and he spent much of his conversation singing the governor's praises. His biggest critique, in fact, was that DeSantis erred strategically by running against Trump.

[Michael Olinger]

He would have been better off saying.

[Jameson Fozer]

Hey, I'm very popular. Florida should repeal term limits and I will rule Florida for 25 years. I think that would have been maybe good now. Impossible.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And Yarvin, without prompting, in the middle of the discussion of DeSantis, adds this nugget.

[Jameson Fozer]

I think that one thing that we agree on is that when you're in the pursuit of power, every step you take needs to generate more power. Everything you do needs to make further actions easier.

[Zach Beecham]

I mean, talking about ruling Florida for 25 years, it struck me that Rufo was faulting DeSantis for being insufficiently authoritarian. But setting aside that point, what I found really fascinating was the next thing that Yarvin said. Yarvin starts talking about how what needs to happen is that DeSantis needs to, in his language, 10x or even 100x what he's doing, you know, multiply it by 10 or 100 times, be more and more aggressive. That's what he should have done. He cites an example.

[Jameson Fozer]

Can we have a picture of what Ron DeSantis times 10x Ron DeSantis times 100x Is, you know, is Ron DeSantis going to start, for example, a Florida branch of the Boy Scouts where they're. The Florida Scouts, where they wear Florida uniforms. That's going a little bit farther than Ron DeSantis has gone. And so when we basically, you know, free ourselves, it's a good idea from.

[Zach Beecham]

Yeah, it's not my idea.

[Jameson Fozer]

It's been tried before. It's been tried.

[Zach Beecham]

I took that as a reference to the Hitler Youth, as you did. But then Yerevan butts in and says, no, no, no, we should call them the Young Pioneers, which was the name of the youth movement in.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In Soviet Russia.

[Zach Beecham]

Exactly. And Communist China. It's like, oh, no, we're not the Bad thing that it sounds like we're talking about. We're the other totalitarian thing. That's what I'm proposing.

[Brooke Gladstone]

When we talk about right wing policies or pundits on the show, we often get feedback saying, why talk about this? Why cover the very conversations you say our guardrails used to keep at bay?

[Zach Beecham]

Yeah, that fight's been lost. Right. Like these people are all in power now. Rufo, I believe, is directly wielding power, but there's been a significant amount of reporting that he has been working with the Trump administration on some of their purge efforts and their attack on higher ed. The other people. The vice president described himself as a defense devotee of Dineen's ideological movement. Right. If we can't talk about the people who the vice president reads regular. He's also said he reads Yarvim, by the way. I mean, what are we even doing here? At one point, at the very end of the conversation, Rufo says something really telling. He says that he believes that the right has won the battle with the left. The battle with the left is won. And now we can go on to have these inter right arguments. Right. But the inter right argument that they're having in that conversation is not over whether we should be authoritarian. In essence, they wouldn't use that language, but I'd say that's a fair description of the politics that were on display in the conversation. It's over just how naked, how aggressive and how weird that authoritarianism should be.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Obviously, we're now talking in a time when the National Guard is being deployed to democratic cities and a banner of Trump's face is draped over the side of the Department of Labor on the question of American authoritarianism. Do you think we have crossed that line in the sand?

[Zach Beecham]

I don't. I think we're on the way. It's not at all unreasonable to say that the United States can be better regarded as an authoritarian state at this point. The reason I think it's not is because I take a simple two part test for whether a country is a democracy. Does it have free and fair elections? And when those elections are concluded, does the ruling power leave? Right. So far, since Trump has been elected, we've had a number of different sub national elections. Democrats have done very well and Republicans have left office. When they've lost now, you might say, well, we haven't gotten to the midterms yet. Well, look at what's happening. Right? There are efforts by the Trump administration to weaken the conditions that make an election free and fair. They've gone after certain components of the press, the gerrymandering that's happening in states like Texas. But if you look holistically, those efforts have not systematically compromised the way in which American elections are held. Right. The majority of the media. Yet. Right, yet. I want to return to that yet point in a second. But, like, we're able to have this conversation and neither of us are afraid of Trump cracking down on our heads because we've criticized the government or of a visit from, you know, the tax agencies.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Well, they've already defunded public broadcasting.

[Zach Beecham]

Yeah, well, yeah, that's pretty bad. But you're still talking, right? You're still talking.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Still talking.

[Deborah Amos]

Yeah.

[Zach Beecham]

But the way in which power is determined, the systems for that are still meaningfully democratic. There's a term for a similar system like this. The late political scientist Guillermo o' Donnell calls it delegative democracy.

[Jameson Fozer]

Right.

[Zach Beecham]

A democracy where when a leader is elected, they are essentially expected to smash the rules and act however they please and maybe even commit abuses in pursuit of whatever their movement's goals are. Sort of system of government that he observed happening in the late 20th century Latin American democracies. And it doesn't always become authoritarianism, but it does in some cases. So you can see it as a way station to an authoritarian system. It wasn't always that sometimes things might revert to a more traditional democratic system or maybe maintain in that uneasy equilibrium for quite some time. We are a degraded form of democracy. And whether it goes further, whether we take the next step, I mean, ultimately, the first real big test will be the midterm elections.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Zach Beacham is senior correspondent in Fox and author of the article the Right Debates. Just How Weird Their Authoritarianism should be. Thank you very much.

[Zach Beecham]

Thank you. That was wonderful.

[Michael Olinger]

Coming up, the war in Ukraine is being fought on the ground, in the air, and on our screenshot.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the media.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Onthemedia is supported by Hims and Hers. If you're someone who values choice in your money, your goals, and your future, then you know how frustrating traditional health care can be. One size fits all treatments, preset dosages, zero flexibility. It's like trying to budget with a fixed expense you didn't even choose. But now there's another way with Hims and Hers. Hims and hers is reimagining healthcare with you in mind. They offer access to personalized care for weight loss, hair loss, sexual health, and mental health, because your goals, your biology, and your lifestyle are anything but average. No membership fees, no surprise fees, just transparent pricing and real care. That you can access from anywhere. Feel like your best self thanks to quality convenient care through HIMS and HERS. Start your free online visit today at himss.com OTM that's H I M S.com OTM to find your personalized treatment options. Not available everywhere. Prescription products require provider consultation. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions.

[Deborah Amos]

What?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Oh, my goodness.

[Zach Beecham]

Wow. Amazing. Oh, my God.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Wow. Oh, my God. Radiolab.

[Zach Beecham]

Whoa.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Adventures on the edge of what we think we know.

[Michael Olinger]

This is on the media. I'm Michael Oinger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. The news about Ukraine is mostly bleak, but there was a glimmer of hope following the Paris summit this past Thursday because a group of European countries announced that they're ready to provide a, quote, reassurance force if there actually is a ceasefire with Russia. Vladimir Putin's immediate response was to say that any troops would be legitimate targets if they appeared on Ukrainian soil before an agreement was reached, which he doesn't seem inclined to work on anyway, saying Russia could accomplish its goals militarily. And thus the diplomatic sniping and the conflict grind on. Veteran foreign correspondent Deborah Amis went to Ukraine earlier this year to hear how Ukrainians are fighting a different war over which side ultimately sets the narrative tells the story of this war, I mean, the version of the story that prevails.

[Deborah Amos]

At the front line in eastern Ukraine. The fighting is intense, mostly trench warfare and artillery bombardments. Like World War I, where gains are measured in inches at a staggering cost. At night, drone warfare is the war of the future that expands the frontline west towards the capital as Russia launches hundreds and hundreds of drones and missile strikes.

[Zach Beecham]

Attention, increased air threat in your area. Proceed to the nearest shelter. Attention, increased air threat.

[Deborah Amos]

It's June, and my reporting partner Joanne Levine and I are spending the night in the bomb shelter of the Radisson in downtown Kyiv. It's a converted parking garage two floors below street level, with rows of beds and beanbag chairs. Ukrainians are advised to shelter in bathtub, in basements or deep underground subways. After almost four years of war, a dark humor pervades attention.

[Zach Beecham]

The air alert is over.

[Deborah Amos]

May the force be with you in the morning. We head to a residential neighborhood that took the brunt of the overnight attack.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Wow. There are no windows left. The balconies are caved in.

[Deborah Amos]

All you can hear is the sweeping up of broken glass.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is definitely downtown Kiev.

[Deborah Amos]

A nurse named Olga is shaking as she gives testimony to an official team. She says she headed for the shelter just before the drone hit Medical center. Medical center.

[Michael Olinger]

Surgery.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Cancer. Cancer center here. Yes, yes.

[Zach Beecham]

Day by day, attacking civilians. But there's definitely no rules now. They're definitely aiming civilians, and I have.

[Jameson Fozer]

No problem with that.

[Deborah Amos]

At the bomb site, we run into Jeff Belzel. He's the security advisor for our trip. He served in the Canadian army for a decade, decorated for his actions combating the Taliban. Now he advises journalists on personal security and risk management. He says Putin's change in strategy is reflected in the numbers. 200 civilians killed and thousands injured in June alone. This is just one snapshot of the war. Nighttime terror followed by the next day's rapid cleanup. This is another picture in the daytime, an embrace of normality. It's part of the rhythm of this war. After a night of heavy drone strikes, Ukrainians walk their dogs, jog around the neighborhood and go for morning call. By the afternoon, in Kyiv's Botanical gardens, under a canopy of trees, the seats are full for a concert, classical versions of some 1980s hits. Since Russia's full scale invasion in 2022, Ukrainians say a concert is a kind of cultural resistance. I came to Ukraine to explore the different forms resistance takes here. I found an example in Bucha, a leafy bedroom community just a short drive from the capital. For one month in early 2022, it was the scene of staggering brutality by Russian forces. Local authorities said 458 bodies were recovered in Bucha that month. The vast majority killed up close. Locals took photos that showed corpses of civilians, hands tied behind their backs, shot at close range. Many bodies were found mutilated and burnt. Girls as young as 14 reported being raped. Russian officials called it fake news, just actors playing dead. Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, repeated those charges at the United Nations. Despite the denials, Bucha became a symbol of Russia's savage tactics, in part because of the actions of a former city council member.

[Brooke Gladstone]

My name is Mikhail no Skorekivska. I was deputy mayor of Bucha in 2021. 2023.

[Deborah Amos]

She's known as Micah. She worked for two decades as a journalist before entering politics. And she understood Bucha's grief. Her husband was killed in 2014 fighting the Russians in eastern Ukraine. When the invaders finally retreated, her town was in desperate struggle. She organized humanitarian aid. Diapers, baby food, water. And she invited the media in. Other towns nearby suffered equally, but they stayed closed when the Russians retreated. So those names are unknown to the outside world.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Bucha was very open, and people were ready to share the pain.

[Deborah Amos]

Reporters, domestic and international, swarm the town of Bucha. And broadcast what they found everywhere.

[Zach Beecham]

Ukrainian national police showed us this mass grave in Bucha, saying they believed up to 150 civilians might be buried here. But no one knows the exact number.

[Deborah Amos]

Like so many victims in the town of Bucha, their identities are not yet known.

[Brooke Gladstone]

When we were burying heroes and when we were burying unknown killed civilians, we did it with the press to record what really happened.

[Deborah Amos]

Micah then went to New York to visit the 911 memorial and meet with the staff there to ask how does a town get past a mass tragedy? Start by honoring the dead, they said. Start by building memorials. A fountain in front of the mayor's office opened a year ago. It's the backdrop for a memorial with life size posters.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You will see fresh flowers near some posters. That's the way how families are memorizing their killed relatives.

[Deborah Amos]

Can we go see that?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Okay, let's go.

[Deborah Amos]

The line of faces paints a vivid picture of enormous loss in one small town.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The youngest person is 1.7 years old. The oldest is 102 years old. They were staying at their houses and they were killed.

[Deborah Amos]

Your advice is you must embrace the media. You must let them be here to help tell your story. A lot of cities didn't see it that way, but you did.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I know that sometimes municipalities don't understand that, but that's very important. Without media, we will not be so successful now. And Bucha could be the model of Ukrainian success in future.

[Deborah Amos]

After the how to measure success in the short term. Memorials, mental health support, especially for children, collecting evidence and identifying witnesses after the war. Maybe the ones who are bearing witness now will define success. Since the invasion began, the world has seen a barrage of narrative films from Ukraine. Most notably the Oscar winning documentary 20 Days in Mariupol, reported and directed by Mstislav Chernov in 2023, also that year, the first dramatic film called Bucha that tells the story of Constantine Godoukas, or Kostia, known for his daring rescues during the early months of the invasion. We meet the real life Kostia, a bulky, 40 something businessman with short graying hair in a basement storeroom he calls his fortress Fortress. It's now a hub for his team and his charity Bucha Helps. The fortress is decorated with patches from Ukrainian military units and stuffed to the ceiling with boxes filled with humanitarian aid, toys for kids, cartons of small backpacks he says he's collecting for the fall when first graders go to school for the first time and we already provided.

[Brooke Gladstone]

8,500 children with that.

[Deborah Amos]

Kostia's background is complicated like so much of the region's history, in 1947, Lithuania was under Soviet control and Stalin exiled his Jewish family to Kazakhstan, where he was born. When the Soviet Union collapsed in the 1990s, Kostya took part in opposition politics, got in trouble, went to jail. He eventually escaped to Ukraine six years ago with just one suitcase. Ukraine granted him political asylum and he rebuilt his life in Bucha. He created a thriving business, charging stations for electric cars successful enough to buy himself a Tesla, his dream car. He had it shipped from California. The arrival of Russian troops in February 2022 changed everything. He witnessed the horrors of the Russian occupation firsthand. He photographed dead bodies on the street with a hidden cell phone. He volunteered for risky evacuation, rescuing the most vulnerable from the Russian occupation zone, including an 80 year old Ukrainian composer, his wife and the family dog. How many people did you save?

[Zach Beecham]

Yaksho brought the key.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's 203 person, but you know, two women were pregnant that time, so now we can count as 205 now.

[Deborah Amos]

He laughs off the dangerous, but some things he cannot forget. He directs us to a traffic circle in Bucha, where Kostya recounts the day in March 2022, after a successful evacuation. He was driving back to his home in Bucha when a Russian shell hit his car. This is where you were shot?

[Brooke Gladstone]

So that's the place where I was driving my car and then suddenly the Russian shell hit my car and I was unconscious. I don't remember anything after that.

[Deborah Amos]

Did they ruin your Tesla?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Burned out totally.

[Deborah Amos]

Kostya's story became the central drama in Bucha the Movie. It's a portrait of the unimaginable of terror and sudden death of Russian tanks parked in the backyards of Ukrainian summer homes, of frightened civilians hiding in the basement, running out of of food, water and hope. In the film, an actor playing Kostya calmly approaches a Russian checkpoint in his Tesla. Your identification. He is waved right through. The film was shot on location in Bucha less than a year after Russian soldiers were murdering civilians and executing prisoners of war. The identification of the dead was still going on, and so was the wider war. The film had a worldwide premiere at the Warsaw Film Festival and private showings across Europe and Even in the U.S. but in Ukraine, the dramatic portrayal of events still so raw led to questions in the Ukrainian media and in the film community. Was it too soon? I wanted to put that question to the film's writer. We meet in a film studio in in the heart of the capital. Welcome. Welcome. It's a bustling complex with Room after room of sets, a restaurant and thousands of props. One of the biggest movie production houses in Europe. I'm Julia. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. She settles us into a room with a set designed to look like a radio station in New York City. There's a wide window on the back wall with a New York street scene.

[Jameson Fozer]

Hello. Nice to meet you.

[Deborah Amos]

Are you Sasha?

[Jameson Fozer]

Alexandra, yes.

[Deborah Amos]

45 year old producer Oleksandr Schur, or Sasha wrote the script. It's his first dramatic film. Back in the day, he was a comedy writer for then comedian and actor Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and he became the president.

[Jameson Fozer]

I became an independent producer as a joke. His career a little better than mine.

[Deborah Amos]

When Russian troops invaded, Schur said he focused on Bucha because the Russians had already made a documentary with their version of events, repeating the official Russian line that atrocities and bucha were staged. He found a central character when he read an online interview with Konstantin Gudowskas recounting his rescues. Impressed by the fact that he'd saved over 200 Ukrainians, Schur says his movie is part Dante's Inferno and part Schindler's List.

[Jameson Fozer]

He is a foreigner. He could leave Ukraine, he could go to another country, but he decided to stay, to risk his life. And for me, this is a very powerful message that nobody can stand aside when such evil things happen.

[Deborah Amos]

Is this movie for insiders or outsiders?

[Jameson Fozer]

This movie is for both, but I think there are different messages for the outsiders.

[Deborah Amos]

He saw his film as an appeal to the court of public opinion, but for insiders, those who were actually experiencing the war, he wanted it to stand as a document to the horrors they were living. That audience had a complicated reaction. This wasn't a film about events 50 years ago, like Spielberg's film about the Holocaust. In Bucha, the trauma was fresh. The first showing of his film Bucha was in a Bucha theater with an audience of about 100 survivors of the Russian occupation.

[Jameson Fozer]

We asked them two questions. Is this movie truthful? They say yes. The second, do we want us to show this movie? Wouldn't this movie traumatize you or your relatives? But all these people? And they said no. We wanted this movie that everybody in the world know what happened in Bucha.

[Deborah Amos]

There are people in Bucha who said, I can't, or drama is too early.

[Jameson Fozer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know this. And this is, for me, this is the main answer. A movie, it's not a monument. If you don't want want to watch it, you don't watch it but many.

[Deborah Amos]

Outside the country will watch the movie with distribution deals for theaters in Germany, Poland, France, Canada, Latin America and Japan.

[Jameson Fozer]

Yeah, my name is Yaroslav Lodgin. I make documentaries, fiction films. Right now I'm working on the concept for a museum.

[Deborah Amos]

Yaroslav Lodigin is a producer, a director and a writer. His one line social media bio reads, I was born in Dystopia, I now live in Kyiv. Perhaps Dystopia also describes his former job as the head of the state controlled national television and radio network. He and his team transformed it, including building a modern newsroom that Ukrainians came to trust. Challenging Russian propaganda from right next door. He sat down to talk at a cafe called the Idealist about his new documentary A Faith Under Siege.

[Jameson Fozer]

A Faith Under Siege is focused on the persecution of Christians by Russians, unoccupied territories and moreover the life of Christians Evangelical especially under Russian occupation.

[Zach Beecham]

All across Russian occupied Ukraine, soldiers are shutting down places of worship.

[Deborah Amos]

Vladimir Putin. Putin uses the false claim that Ukrainian Nazis are a threat to Christian values to justify his invasion. Lodgin's film, made with American financial backing and for an American audience, bears witness to Putin's persecution of the Ukrainian church, including the arrest and torture of the clergy. The documentary premiered in May on the Christian Broadcasting Network, the US based media company founded by Pat Robertson, best known for producing the 700 Club.

[Jameson Fozer]

Before the very conservative evangelical would be asked, you want to help Ukraine? You want to United States provide assistance to Ukraine? They would say no. And then if they see this movie, they turn their minds completely and they would rather ask their senator congressman to support Ukraine. That that's how it works.

[Deborah Amos]

Putin's Russia has mastered the disinformation game perfected on state television, where every day they construct their own version of this war. But filmmakers like Lodigan believe that you can win if you can tell the story first and tell it well.

[Jameson Fozer]

We are outnumbered. We have less money, resources, weapons, but we have some ability to tell stories.

[Deborah Amos]

The battle of narratives defines this war.

[Jameson Fozer]

We are the products of narratives. It's hard to imagine what would be with the whole concept of justice without this work.

[Deborah Amos]

Within Ukraine, documentaries don't often find an audience, says Elizavitha Smith.

[Brooke Gladstone]

No, it's obvious that they don't want to see this and they don't need to see this for now. That's why most of us filmmakers realize that we do films that will stay in time and also that are that important now to show for an audience and that will stay in time for Ukrainians.

[Deborah Amos]

This year The Cannes Film Festival dedicated its programming to Ukraine, premiering three films, including the documentary Militant Ropas that tracks profound changes in Ukrainians as their country is torn apart.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Militant is a soldier from Latin, and anthropos is a human from Greek. So this new kind of human is born inside this war.

[Deborah Amos]

Smith, one of the film's producers and writers, explains the title at a coffee shop. She says the film is about how the ongoing war becomes an internal reality, even for her.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah, it's my life. And I start to count, if three years more, five years old, how old I will be. Can I make one more, baby? Can I make one more movie? You know, because your future is not anymore, like in your hands, and it's not fun.

[Deborah Amos]

The Ukrainians she's interviewed insist that the architects of the invasion must and will be held accountable. This is not negotiable. But for now, justice obtained through the world's courts seems remote. And I wondered, can documentaries help people assuage their impatience and sustain their hope, bridge that gap in time between crime and punishment?

[Brooke Gladstone]

The amount of crimes in this country is so big. In this way, documentary works a bit therapy.

[Deborah Amos]

Do you really feel that when you're in the middle of a long interview with somebody who's been through this?

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah, I feel this a lot. When person starts to speak, he needs to be listened. And then you do this work for him just for helping, you know, just for letting people speak.

[Deborah Amos]

And some lacking a platform may shout or honk their horns. This is a weekly protest in the capital demanding the release of Ukrainian war prisoners from Russian jails. Every week, Sasha Kirko comes, holding a sign that says, we can't be silent.

[Brooke Gladstone]

We here because of everyone who is in this horrible captivity is our people. We here for everyone because they protecting US.

[Deborah Amos]

An estimated 8,000 Ukrainian soldiers are still held in Russia. The two nations carried out the largest prisoner swap this summer, with more than 2,000 exchanged. It's the only positive wartime diplomacy.

[Michael Olinger]

I've been in captivity two and a half years.

[Deborah Amos]

Former prisoners come here too, some in wheelchairs, some are amputees, many visibly diminished by the conditions they endured. Mikhail Chapla clutches a picture of himself when he was first released. A gaunt face and haunted eyes. At these rallies, he wears the Ukrainian flag like a cape, as do the other former prisoners gathered around him.

[Michael Olinger]

All these men, all these men been in captivity one year, two and half year.

[Deborah Amos]

When you see this, when you come here, does it make you feel better.

[Brooke Gladstone]

That yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Deborah Amos]

That everybody remembers you okay?

[Jameson Fozer]

Yeah.

[Deborah Amos]

Ukraine is desperately fighting for its very survival. But it may not win. If it doesn't, does it matter whether it can claim a moral victory? In the memories of those who live the war, and those who merely watched wars elsewhere, in places like Serbia or Cambodia, generations still clash over what happened. The atrocities end Cambodia. Many young people doubt they happened at all. In parts of the US 150 years after the Civil War, the cliche remains that the north won the war, but the south won the narrative, causing no end of turmoil. This conflict has reshaped the battlefield where memories are turned into history and justice hangs on a stone. That old adage about war that the victors get to tell the story. Ukrainians aren't buying it. They are determined to keep telling it and telling it better than their foe until the pursuit of accountability, of justice, is transformed from a narrative hook, a hero's journey, to a verdict gaveled out and engraved in history.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Deborah Amos is the Ferris professor of Journalism at Princeton. Her reporting partner on this trip was Joanne Levine. Support for their reporting was provided by the International Women's Media foundation in partnership with the Howard C. Buffett Foundation.

[Michael Olinger]

That's it for this week's show. On the Media is produced by Molly Rosen, Rebecca Clark Callender and Candace Wong.

[Brooke Gladstone]

On the Media is a production of WNYC Studios. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Michael Olinger]

And I'm Michael Owinger.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City by sponsoring programming like NYC Now. You'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.