OTM presents The Experiment: Who Would Jesus Mock?

Summary

On the Media: The Experiment – Who Would Jesus Mock?

Podcast: On the Media
Host/Author: WNYC Studios
Episode: OTM presents The Experiment: Who Would Jesus Mock?
Release Date: November 10, 2021

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Introduction

In this episode of On the Media, co-host Brooke Gladstone introduces an intriguing segment from The Experiment, a collaborative show produced by WNYC and The Atlantic. The featured episode delves into the Christian satire website, The Babylon Bee, exploring its role in modern media, its impact on political discourse, and the fine line between humor and misinformation.

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The Genesis of The Babylon Bee

Julia Longoria, the host of The Experiment, sets the stage by discussing the origins of The Babylon Bee.

• [00:51] Emma Greene, an Atlantic staff writer, recalls presenting a joke from The Babylon Bee:
  "Holy Spirit Unable to Move Through Congregation as Fog Machine Breaks"
  This joke satirizes the contemporary mega-church atmosphere, blending religious fervor with the spectacle of rock concert-like environments.

Kyle Mann, the editor-in-chief of The Babylon Bee, elaborates on the site’s early focus:

• [01:00] He explains, “We’re here to be reached by the Holy Spirit. But the fog machine kept us from doing that because we got distracted thinking that the fog machine was the point” (01:00).

This foundational humor targets the commercialization and performative aspects of certain evangelical practices.

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Expanding the Satirical Scope

Initially perceived as an evangelical counterpart to The Onion, The Babylon Bee quickly broadened its satirical targets beyond megachurches.

• [02:30] Julia Longoria notes, “The Babylon Bee has always had a political streak to it,” with satirical headlines such as:
  • “Trump Announces Illegal Immigrant Gladiator Games”
  • “Hillary Turns to Husband for Advice on Attracting Young, Impressionable Female Voters”

These political satires have garnered significant attention, leading to debates over whether they cross into the realm of misinformation.

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Satire vs. Misinformation: The Debate

As The Babylon Bee’s political posts gain virality, criticism mounts regarding their potential to misinform.

• [03:03] A prominent critique: “The New York Times recently denounced the Babylon Bee as 'A far right misinformation site that, sometimes traffics in misinformation under the guise of satire.'”
  This highlights the tension between comedic intent and public perception.

Julia Longoria seeks direct insight from Kyle Mann on the site's intentions and the fine line between humor and misinformation.

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Understanding the Audience and Intent

[04:28] Emma Greene sits down with Kyle Mann to discuss the intersection of Christianity and comedy. Mann emphasizes the necessity of cleverness in conservative comedy to resonate with their audience:

• Kyle Mann: “There's this idea that conservative comedy can just say something and everybody will laugh because they agree with it. If it just comes off as angry, it's not going to hit that mark. Like, it has to be clever” (04:28).

This approach aims to engage rather than alienate, balancing humor with ideological messaging.

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Navigating Misinterpretations

The episode examines how different political spectra misinterpret The Babylon Bee’s satire.

• [08:16] Mann explains a controversial headline: “Democrats Call for Flags to Be Flown at Half Mast to Grieve the Death of Soleimani.”
  The joke hinges on the ironic portrayal of Democrats mourning the death of a U.S. military figure, which some misconstrue as factual rather than satirical.

• [11:03] Julia Longoria highlights the ethical dilemma: “Do you worry about that?” regarding readers mistaking satire for news.

• [11:51] Mann responds by comparing The Babylon Bee’s situation to other satirical outlets like SNL or The Onion:
  “Does SNL bear responsibility? [...] Stephen Colbert, people always thought was being serious.” (11:51)

Despite these comparisons, Mann acknowledges that The Babylon Bee faces more intense scrutiny due to its conservative bent.

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Ethical Responsibilities in Satire

A critical discussion unfolds around the ethical implications of satire in a polarized environment.

• [13:00] Julia Longoria probes whether The Babylon Bee maintains boundaries in its humor:
  “Fat jokes, jokes about black people, jokes about gay people. And I wanted to know, is there a line for them that they wouldn't cross in their pursuit of standing against the liberal media elite?”

• [13:25] An anonymous speaker references a controversial cartoon from The Babylon Bee’s new book, questioning its portrayal of race: “There's a little stick figure that's like, peach colored that says bad. And then gray that says better. And black that says best.”

Kyle Mann deflects, stating the intent behind such jokes is to mock progressive hierarchies, not to genuinely belittle any group.

• [14:35] Mann asserts, “...we're taking this ridiculous position in order to mock it a little bit” (14:35).

However, this approach has been met with backlash, highlighting the challenges of balancing satire with sensitivity.

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The Role of Comedy in a Divided America

The conversation pivots to the broader role of humor in bridging political divides.

• [17:44] Matt Bellamy’s comment encapsulates the struggle:
  “There's something about humor that I think is designed to help us negotiate the margins of culture and what's acceptable.”
  Mann adds, “It's critiquing or calling out by name something that other people have found to be taboo or too sacred.” (20:04)

Yet, Emma Greene reflects on the difficulty of finding common comedic ground in today’s polarized society.

• [22:04] Greene states, “You have to have some common ground, right? You have to kind of have some shared narrative that you can both laugh at.”

Mann laments the loss of universal humor, emphasizing the rarity of jokes that both sides can appreciate.

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Conclusion

The episode of The Experiment offers a deep dive into The Babylon Bee’s satirical approach within the evangelical and broader political landscape. Through candid discussions with Kyle Mann, the show highlights the complexities of humor in a divided America, the ethical boundaries of satire, and the challenges of maintaining comedic integrity without perpetuating misinformation. As political and cultural tensions escalate, the role of satire as both a mirror and a molder of public perception remains a contentious and evolving frontier.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kyle Mann: “There's this idea that conservative comedy can just say something and everybody will laugh because they agree with it. If it just comes off as angry, it's not going to hit that mark. Like, it has to be clever.” (04:28)

• Kyle Mann: “The great thing about this headline is we're making fun of stupid boomer jokes about AOC because at the time, there's just constant memes about AOC being dumb or whatever.” (08:16)

• Kyle Mann: “Does SNL bear responsibility? Because people still think that Sarah Palin said that she could see Russia from her house. The onions had been shared by politicians who thought it was real.” (11:51)

• Kyle Mann: “I think Jesus would make fun of the most powerful man in the world, the President of the United States.” (17:44)

• Emma Greene: “You have to have some common ground, right? You have to kind of have some shared narrative that you can both laugh at.” (22:04)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the podcast episode, providing a clear and detailed overview for those who haven't listened to the original content.

Transcript

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[Brooke Gladstone]

This is the on the Media Midweek podcast. I'm Brooke Gladst, and this week we're featuring an episode of a show made by our producing station, WNYC in collaboration with the Atlantic magazine. It's called the Experiment, and this episode is all about the Christian satire website the Babylon Bee. Here's the host of the show, Julia Longoria.

[Emma Greene]

I recently asked Atlantic staff writer Emma Greene to pull up a joke that she told me from a Christian satire website called the Babylon Bee.

[Kyle Mann]

So here we go. Okay, so this, this is from their early days from 2016, and the headline is Holy Spirit Unable to Move Through Congregation as Fog Machine Breaks. Which is really funny because, you know, I guess now I'm explaining the joke, which is a little lame. This is poking fun at the fact that there's a certain kind of mega church where the environment is very much like a rock concert. It's like fog machines and skinny jeans and neon lights. So it's just a funny joke to be like, we're here to be reached by the Holy Spirit. But the fog machine kept us from doing that because we got distracted thinking that the fog machine was the point.

[Emma Greene]

Emma, of course, covers religion for the Atlantic, and she first came across the Babylon Bee as this sort of evangelical answer to the Onion.

[Kyle Mann]

I remember thinking, oh, this is something different. This is like insiders who totally get what evangelicalism is and love it and consider themselves part of it. And also just told a really hilarious joke about smoke machines at a megachurch.

[Emma Greene]

But if you've followed the Babylon Bee over the last few years, you know, it doesn't just poke fun at megachurches.

[Julia Longoria]

The Babylon Bee has always had a political streak to it, and you could say a political mean streak, like the headline Trump Announces Illegal Immigrant Gladiator Games. Or another one Hillary turns to husband for advice on attracting young, impressionable female voters. So as these political posts have started to go viral, they have gotten a lot of criticism for pushing satire past the line of making jokes and into misinformation.

[Unknown Speaker]

Liberal media wouldn't know a joke if it punched him in the tic tac sack, especially jokes from the popular satire website the Babylon Bee. New York Times recently denounced the Babylon Bee as quote A far right misinformation site that, quote, sometimes traffics in misinformation under the guise of satire. No humor allowed.

[Julia Longoria]

So with my reporting, I spend a lot of time in the evangelical world that the Babylon Bee inhabits. And I wanted to know directly from them, what do they think they're doing when they're telling these jokes. So I called the editor in chief of the Babylon Bee, Kyle Mann.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, I'm not going to explain the joke to you. Do you want me to explain the joke to you?

[Julia Longoria]

Yes, because the joke is that humor is this weird thing where either you think it's funny or you don't. Either you see it as a joke or you don't. And I think understanding the why behind that can also help us understand something bigger about politics, about this divided political world that we're living in. And I really think it's important to understand the people who think that the Babylon Bees jokes are funny.

[Emma Greene]

This week, Atlantic writer Emma Greene sits down with Kyle Mann, the editor in chief of the Babylon Bee, to talk about Christianity and comedy.

[Kyle Mann]

There's this idea that conservative comedy can just say something and everybody will laugh because they agree with it. If it just comes off as angry, it's not going to hit that mark. Like, it has to be clever. The balance of comedy is trying to find that line.

[Emma Greene]

Where is the line between making a joke and doing harm? And what can humor tell us about where we are right now as a country? I'm Julia Longoria. This is the Experiment, a show about our unfinished country. Okay, so Emma, you sat down with Kyle Mann, and I'm curious, how does he fit into the evangelical world that you know so well. Did he grow up religious?

[Julia Longoria]

Yeah, the environment where he grew up was the kind of feel good, rock concert, Christian environment that that fog machine joke makes fun of.

[Kyle Mann]

I grew up in a kind of mega church type atmosphere with the big show and the laser lights. My rebellious teen stage was becoming a theological conservative. So a lot of my buddies have a similar story where, like, Christianity had become this just kind of cultural tradition. And so the call of conservative theology for us was like, wow. Like, there's this rich, centuries old tradition of good, solid, biblically faithful teaching where people just dig into the Bible and they just see what it says, you know, and that's the primary concern, more or less.

[Julia Longoria]

Kyle is kind of part of the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Philosophy bros of the Christian world.

[Julia Longoria]

And this is exactly who the Babylon Bee was trying to target when they first launched in 2016. Even though Kyle didn't have a formal Comedy background, he started pitching jokes to the beat.

[Kyle Mann]

It was more the natural outpouring of everything I had just enjoyed in life. I absolutely loved all of Christopher Guest's mockumentaries. I love the Onion. Anything that's, like, just very dry Monty Python or, you know, that kind of stuff that's kind of, like, to me, the gold standard of comedy.

[Unknown Speaker]

A couple of years later, Kyle ascended.

[Julia Longoria]

To the top and started running the place.

[Kyle Mann]

As an editor, I have to think along a lot of different axes. Like, you know, has anybody done this joke before? Is this in the Babylon beast voice? How could this possibly be misinterpreted? You know, so there's constantly stuff that I can't publish. It's just. Yeah, here's the problem with that one. I know exactly what Lefty Twitter is going to say as soon as we publish that. So you have to be careful with that.

[Unknown Speaker]

So are you scared of Lefty Twitter? Like, you're scared of the dog pile?

[Kyle Mann]

No. I mean, Lefty Twitter doesn't matter to anybody except Lefty Twitter, so I don't really care. And they've hated us for five years. And so, I mean, it doesn't really matter that much. But, you know, at the same time, we do have this brand that we want to be careful. We don't want to make it easy for them either. And so, like, we did this great joke, one of our best jokes, where we said, oh, the headline is dumb. AOC accidentally strangles herself tying her shoes because she is so stupid. And every time we repost that one, we've reposted it to Twitter a few times. Every time we do, Lefty Twitter gets so upset, and they're like, you know, I can't believe they wrote this joke. Like, who explains a joke right in the headline? It's not even funny.

[Julia Longoria]

When some people read that joke, they see it as just a shot at AOC Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. They're being mean to the most hated congresswoman on the planet. But in Kyle's mind, the joke is actually not aimed at AOC at all.

[Kyle Mann]

The great thing about this headline is we're making fun of stupid boomer jokes about AOC because at the time, there's just constant memes about AOC being dumb or whatever. And so he said, well, what if we just kind of went all in with this weird Andy Kaufman bit where we're making fun of ourselves, but we don't tell anybody we're making fun of ourselves? It really is this kind of weird litmus test. Where, you know, if you see it and you know what we're doing, which most of our audience does, they laugh at it if you don't know what we're doing. People on the right who don't like aoc, and they'll be like, yeah, I don't like her either. But, you know, this joke isn't very good. And then people on the left just. I don't know, I think people on the left think that we're always 100% serious, and we're always saying what we're saying. They don't understand that comedy can take this ridiculous position just to kind of mock it a little bit.

[Julia Longoria]

But it's not just people on the left who misinterpret Babylon Bee articles. There are also plenty of people on the right who read these headlines and just think they're news. Take, for example, this article that was published in January of 2020. It was shared 3.3 million times, according to the numbers that are on the Bees website. The headline was, democrats call for flags to be flown at half mast to grieve the death of Soleimani. That, of course, is Qasem Soleimani, the Iranian leader who was killed in an American strike.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, I want to know what makes this funny. I know that's the worst question for somebody to ask to somebody who writes jokes, but, like, why is that funny?

[Kyle Mann]

Yeah, well, it's funny because General Soleimani died, and then they called for flags to be flown at half mast to grieve his death. Get it?

But that's what I'm saying. Like, what?

[Julia Longoria]

What, Besides just saying the joke over, what makes it funny?

[Kyle Mann]

Well, I'm not gonna explain the joke to you. Do you want me to explain the joke to you? Yes, because the joke is that General Soleimani died and Democrats were sad.

[Unknown Speaker]

But. But why is that funny?

[Kyle Mann]

If you don't know why that's funny, then you're not the audience for the joke.

[Julia Longoria]

I think what's tough about this joke is that on the one hand, there are conservatives who would read this headline and not give it a second thought. They would think that it's real because it exactly fits all of the stereotypes and cliches that people on the right use about the left all the time.

[Kyle Mann]

And.

[Julia Longoria]

And by the same token, there are people on the left who look at that and say, hey, you're not trying to tell a joke. You're trying to mislead people. There's no shared kernel of truth. There's nothing that people from different political perspectives could look and say, hey, I actually see something a little bit true about the joke that you're trying to tell. But obviously Kyle disagrees.

[Kyle Mann]

The funniest part about that is that it got fact checked because it was so believable that Democrats would do that. And so that's the funniest part to me.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't think the reason that they fact checked it was because it was so plausible. I think it's because it was being shared millions of times on Facebook.

[Kyle Mann]

But why was that? It was because it was plausible.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but so, okay, what if people did believe that was real? Which I think they gathered evidence that some people thought that was real.

[Julia Longoria]

Do you worry about that?

[Unknown Speaker]

That people, regardless of how many times you, you know, make it clear that you're a satire website or whatever, that people will read that and be like, oh, this is actually a fact that I saw. I'm a boomer, you know, scrolling through my Facebook feed. I actually think that this is a real thing that Democrats do. Does that pose any ethical responsibilities for you guys?

[Kyle Mann]

Like, I mean, not any more so than any other comedian who gets mistaken for being real. Does SNL bear responsibility? Because people still think that Sarah Palin said that she could see Russia from her house. The onions had been shared by politicians who thought it was real. Stephen Colbert, people always thought was being serious.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you feel like you get slammed for it more because you're writing from a conservative perspective.

[Kyle Mann]

Well, we do. You know, we've seen this time and again with fact checkers and stuff that there's a different way in which they fact check our articles and accuse us of intentionally muddying the waters, of intentionally spreading misinformation, versus the way that they would fact check other sites in the past where they would say, come on, this is satire, obviously. And there's just a totally different tone in the way that they approach us.

[Julia Longoria]

It's pretty clear that the Babylon Bee sees themselves as an underdog. They are the opponents of the liberal elite. But what that means is that they're often telling jokes that other people find offensive.

[Kyle Mann]

As soon as someone sits there and says, oh, you can't make fun of this class because that class is oppressed, that's going to make me want to tell a joke about that.

[Julia Longoria]

Fat jokes, jokes about black people, jokes about gay people. And I wanted to know, is there a line for them that they wouldn't cross in their pursuit of standing against the liberal media elite?

[Unknown Speaker]

I want to talk about one of the many drawings in your new book. There's one in particular, that's at the beginning of chapter two, which is on race. I wonder if you remember that particular image. It has three little stick figures. Do you remember the one I'm talking about?

[Kyle Mann]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, so I'll just describe it to you. There's chapter two, and race is the heading. And then there's a little stick figure that's like, I don't know, peach colored that says bad. And then one that's next to it to the right that's gray, that says better. And then there's one that's next to it to the right that says best and it's black. And I wonder, like, why do you think that's funny?

[Kyle Mann]

Well, it's because being peach is not good or being yellow is not good or whatever color that is. I'm not looking at the drawing. But being gray is better. And then being black, being dark colored is best.

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

But you're not just talking about that in terms of stick figures, right? Like, you're talking about that in terms of how progressives think about a hierarchy of race.

[Kyle Mann]

Sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

So why is that funny?

[Kyle Mann]

Well, I'm not sitting here with a book, and I'm not going to sit here and deconstruct and explain every joke to you. I think what you're doing is you're pulling out these, like, singular jokes in the midst of a book that is written in this voice that says, hey, here's a guide to being woke, and here's how you get there. And there's one joke that does that in the middle of a chapter on race. And the hope is that as you're sitting there reading it, we're writing in this voice and we're taking this ridiculous position in order to mock something, in order to make fun of this idea that your skin color matters in terms of your hierarchy, in terms of setting up this oppressed versus oppressor class. And so that's one joke in the midst of that. And if you really don't get the joke, I can't help you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I guess what I'm wondering is whether you think that spirit on the left that you're trying to capture with that cartoon, do you think that that mentality is actually true to liberal or progressive subcultures in America?

[Kyle Mann]

Well, absolutely. And obviously that's kind of an extreme example. The role of the comedian is to stand there and be the court jester and say, hey, like, what the heck are we doing with all this wokeness and cultural Marxism? And to just stand there and point at it and hold Up a mirror to mock it. Like, it's not supposed to create this nuanced discussion and make these nuanced points. Do I think everybody on the left thinks that way? No, but the second you say that in comedy, you're not making a joke anymore. Now you're just, like, writing a think piece.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think you made a joke at one point about switching out the steeple of your church with the cross for a Black Lives Matter festival.

[Kyle Mann]

And I think it'd be easy to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Make the mistake, which I assume is a mistake, of thinking that you guys think any kind of reflection on, for example, the history of racism in the Southern Baptist Convention is stupid.

[Kyle Mann]

And I guess I just wondered, do you think it's stupid?

Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to talk about racism at all, obviously, because we made a joke about one thing. Yeah, no, I mean, obviously, like that. This is. I'm being sarcastic. This is the whole point I'm trying to make about comedy. To go so far and to say, like, let's replace the cross that redeems us, that unites humanity, that destroys racism. Let's take that cross down and replace it with a Black Lives Matter fist is to make a point about the way that a lot of people who are thinking in kind of a Marxist mindset are trying to approach race in the church. So to read into it, like, oh, well, do you care about racism at all? So you're saying racism is not a problem is to not understand how satire works.

Do you feel like your work at.

[Unknown Speaker]

The Babylon Bee helps you to live out or uphold what you see as the image of Jesus in the Bible?

[Kyle Mann]

So would Jesus joke about the things the Babylon Bee jokes about? Yeah, I think Jesus would make fun of the most powerful man in the world, the President of the United States. I think he would do that. Sure. I think he would make fun of and call to repentance the LGBTQ community. Sure, I think he would do that. Who controls a huge part of our cultural institutions. I think he'd make fun of major corporations. I think he'd make fun of universities. I think he would make fun of those things. Because the real irony right now is that the left controls a ton of our cultural institutions and thinks that they're oppressed. And so, yeah, we'll make fun of that, for sure. And I think that's certainly in line with the way that Jesus inverted things and turned them on their heads. But at the same time, I want to be clear that Jesus. I mean, we can't sit here and map our Modern political divide onto Jesus. Now, I do think, like, maybe what you're asking is, like, is the tone and the. You know, is there something Christian about that? Or is, like, what is Christian about mockery? And there is a place in it for the Bible, But I do think there is a danger, too. C.S. lewis famously hated writing the Screwtape letters because it's a book that's written from the perspective and the voice of a demon, and he's mocking sin, and he's mocking the way that we're tempted and the way that we reason with ourselves and fall into sin. But he hated writing in the voice of a demon for so long because he started to think like a demon. And I think there is a danger there, I think, especially if I'm writing a bunch of political jokes and it's like, oh, how can I make fun of the left right now? There is something that's not good about that, I think, on some level. So just being completely honest and vulnerable with you, it's like there is a level where you have to stop yourself and say, this isn't good for my soul. On some level.

[Emma Greene]

Did you get a sense that Kyle grappled with the ethical questions of, is he doing harm with these jokes in any real way?

[Kyle Mann]

You know, even to him, somebody who clearly thinks his own jokes are pretty funny, he thinks it's worth sitting back and stopping to reflect on whether his jokes are actually right in the sense of right for a Christian to be telling. There's something about humor that I think is designed to help us negotiate the margins of culture and what's acceptable. Humor, comedy, stand up, has always been around pushing the boundaries a little bit. It's critiquing or calling out by name something that other people have found to be taboo or too sacred. And in a certain way, the BE is an important experiment for us in this time which does feel so serious and in which people are unable to find common cause with people from a different point of view. By and large, we're living in really serious times around the consequences of the actions of people with power for the lives of people of color. We're living through really serious times in terms of Americans trust in their government and in each other and in their institutions. And I think there's some segment of people who feel very much as though they sit on the opposite side of a fence from people who view these problems radically differently than they do, and those are their enemies. And of course, they're not gonna find the same stuff funny. And of course, they wouldn't want to. And I don't know, I think there's something real and almost bittersweet about that idea that there probably isn't humor, especially humor that gets it all political, that Americans could just set aside their differences and find funny together.

[Emma Greene]

It is really sad. It's like, strangely, it really is like the symptom of the main problem we're having right now, which is like, I feel like with the joke you have to have some common ground, right?

[Kyle Mann]

Yes.

[Emma Greene]

You have to kind of have some shared narrative that you can both laugh at. And it's so hard right now to.

[Kyle Mann]

Find that, like, can we not sit down and just share a good belly laugh at a dumb joke anymore? This is my lament for America.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You've been listening to an episode of the Experiment hosted by Julia Longoria and produced by WNYC in the Atlantic. See you here on Friday for the big show in which we will introduce you to some crypto bros and explore the ideas of worth and value in the era of NFTs. The show's usually ready for you around dinner time Friday. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

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