Planning for Inevitable Climate Disaster

Summary

Podcast Summary: On the Media – Planning for Inevitable Climate Disaster

Episode Title: Planning for Inevitable Climate Disaster
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Hosts: Brooke Gladstone and Micah Loewinger
Guest: Nathaniel Rich, Writer and Essayist
Produced by: WNYC Studios

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1. Introduction

In this episode of On the Media's Midweek Podcast, host Brooke Gladstone delves into the pressing issue of climate disaster preparedness, focusing on New Orleans as a pivotal example. As the Atlantic hurricane season intensifies due to warmer-than-average ocean temperatures, the podcast examines how New Orleans is planning for the inevitable climate-related catastrophes that threaten its existence.

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2. The Reality of Climate Disaster in New Orleans

Brooke Gladstone opens the discussion by highlighting the severe impact of recent hurricanes, specifically Tropical Storm Barry, which caused deadly flash floods in Texas, claiming at least 132 lives with over 100 people still missing (00:36). She introduces Nathaniel Rich, who has argued that New Orleans exemplifies how cities can prepare for climate disasters effectively.

Nathaniel Rich emphasizes the unwavering and realistic perspective of New Orleans residents toward existential climate risks:

“I think the perspective down here is franker and more honest than you tend to see anywhere else in this country.”
01:23

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3. The Coastal Master Plan: Ambitious and Temporary

Rich elaborates on the Coastal Master Plan, an extensive and costly initiative aimed at mitigating Louisiana's severe coastal land loss. This plan is described as the world's most expensive and ambitious climate change adaptation strategy, encompassing approximately 200 projects with a projected budget of $50 billion:

“The master plan is enormous. It's essentially an omnibus plan of, on the order of 200 projects to build land, to preserve land, to restore land.”
04:35

The core strategy involves river diversion, where new tributaries are created by cutting gaps into the levees of the Mississippi River. This method aims to mimic the river's natural behavior, allowing it to deposit silty water and naturally build up land over generations. Rich notes that this proactive approach is not intended to be a permanent solution but rather buys time for future preparations:

“The genius of the plan... is that it's an enormously ambitious plan that doesn't ultimately intend to solve the major problem it addresses. But what it does do is it buys time.”
06:37

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4. Opposition from Gulf Communities

Despite its broad support, the Coastal Master Plan faces significant opposition from specific communities, particularly oystermen, shrimpers, and fishermen residing in the Gulf areas just downriver from New Orleans. These individuals are concerned that the diversion of Mississippi River water into their marshes will devastate the local fisheries, directly threatening their livelihoods.

Rich explains the dilemma faced by these communities:

“They have to choose between saving their homes or saving their livelihoods, and they've picked their livelihoods.”
07:34

Governor Jeff Landry, a recent election victor, voices strong opposition, arguing that the plan would "break parts of Louisiana's culture" due to its adverse effects on Gulf fishing communities:

“He says it would, quote, break parts of Louisiana's culture because of the harm to these Gulf fishing communities.”
09:30

The conflict underscores a broader political struggle, as powerful industries like oil and gas back the plan despite their role in exacerbating environmental degradation:

“They support the plan because... those industries have enormous infrastructures.”
09:59

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5. Ecological Concerns and Media Framing

Environmental impacts extend beyond human livelihoods. The diversion efforts raise ecological concerns, such as the potential death of approximately 200 bottlenose dolphins due to altered habitats:

“It's been enormously well studied and extensively... it will lead to the death of something like 200 bottlenose dolphins.”
10:29

Interestingly, Rich points out a media strategy shift where fishermen began highlighting dolphin fatalities to garner public support, revealing a preference for animal-focused narratives over human economic struggles:

“They realized that people care more about dolphins than working class fishermen.”
11:37

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6. Psychological and Cultural Perspectives on Climate Change

A pivotal moment in the discussion is when Ben Strauss, head of Climate Central, suggests rethinking how we perceive cities' lifespans:

“People find it very hard to accept that a city like New Orleans at some point will not exist anymore. But why don't we think of the life of a city the way that we think about the life of a human being?”
11:43

Nathaniel Rich reflects on this perspective, relating it to the broader human condition and the psychological barriers to addressing climate change:

“It's a bit like looking at one's own death, because we're talking about civilizational death. That forces you to really question what you value. It forces you to prioritize.”
12:29

This acceptance fosters a deeper commitment to preserving and improving the current environment, countering prevalent feelings of hopelessness:

“People who decide to live here... have a much stronger commitment to the place, to the life of the place.”
15:16

Rich contrasts American attitudes with European perspectives, noting that while Europeans may be more pessimistic about climate issues, they tend to implement more progressive policies without succumbing to a binary of hope and despair:

“This binary of hope and despair has... prevents us from thinking of real measures that we can take to improve our lot in the meantime.”
14:19

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7. Lessons from New Orleans: Hope and Commitment

The narrative of New Orleans serves as a powerful example of resilience and proactive engagement in the face of climate adversity. The city's residents exhibit a unique blend of preparedness and unwavering dedication to their community, even when facing the knowledge that their city may one day succumb to climate disasters.

Rich highlights the robust civic engagement and the shared sense of peril that unites New Orleans residents:

“There’s a level of civic engagement that feels to me much more robust than I've encountered in other places.”
16:16

This collective spirit is pivotal in sustaining long-term efforts to adapt and mitigate the impacts of climate change, embodying a model of how communities can endure amid existential threats.

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8. Conclusion

Brooke Gladstone and Nathaniel Rich provide a comprehensive look into the complexities surrounding climate disaster planning in New Orleans. The episode underscores the delicate balance between ambitious infrastructural projects and the socio-economic realities of vulnerable communities. It also delves into the psychological and cultural shifts necessary to confront the finite nature of cities and civilizations in the face of climate change.

Rich's insights encourage listeners to rethink their relationship with their environments, valuing the present while preparing for an uncertain future. New Orleans stands as a testament to resilience, offering lessons on commitment, adaptation, and the human spirit's capacity to endure.

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Notable Quotes:

• Nathaniel Rich:
  “I think the perspective down here is franker and more honest than you tend to see anywhere else in this country.” (01:23)
  “What they're doing... is to mimic the natural behavior of the Mississippi river.” (05:16)
  “The binary of hope and despair has... prevents us from thinking of real measures that we can take to improve our lot in the meantime.” (14:19)

• Ben Strauss:
  “People find it very hard to accept that a city like New Orleans at some point will not exist anymore.” (11:43)

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For more insights and in-depth discussions, tune into On the Media every week.

Transcript

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[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the Media's Midweek podcast. I'm Brooke Gladstone. The Atlantic hurricane season is currently underway and the National Weather Service is expecting more storms than usual due to warmer than average ocean temperatures, among other conditions. In fact, it was the tail end of Tropical Storm Barry that contributed to the deadly flash floods in Texas two weeks ago that's claimed at least 132 lives so far as I write this, over 100 people are still missing when it comes to planning for climate disaster. Writer and essayist Nathaniel Rich has argued in the New York Times that his city of New Orleans can can set an example that the rest of the country would be wise to follow.

[Nathaniel Rich]

I think the perspective down here is franker and more honest than you tend to see anywhere else in this country.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Certainly I spoke to Nathaniel late last year, but we thought it was definitely worth replaying.

[Nathaniel Rich]

I was struck by this kind of metronomic drumbeat of the reporting this hurricane season from places like Asheville or even to the Florida coast, of people saying things like I would never would have expected this or who could have imagined? And nobody says that kind of thing here. People here live with their eyes wide open to existential risk because we know every hurricane season might be the last.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And how does that perspective play out in how New Orleans plan?

[Nathaniel Rich]

We're ready. I think everybody here has a fully filled pantry. They have gallons of water. Those who can afford it have whole house generators. There are evacuation plans, as you said, you know, depending on the trajectory of a storm and the duration of the devastation. You know, they say, you know, pack a go bag or something whenever. You know, FEMA says that whenever a hurricane is coming, we have go bags, you know, we have go suitcases and we don't need to be reminded.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And you don't wait for a tropical storm to form. You track every depression and cyclone advisory with you say grim scrutiny. And local news tracks it too.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yeah, I have to say that the local news is excellent at this. You say then there's sort of random people on Amateurs on Twitter who follow this kind of thing more obsessively than even, you know, the state agencies. At times, you become a kind of expert at reading advanced meteorological bulletins from the National Hurricane center and various different spaghetti models.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What models?

[Nathaniel Rich]

Spaghetti models, yes. This is a whole. There is a whole. There are all these terms of art that I suppose I need to define as I go along that I've just become completely accustomed to. There are a bunch of different modeling agencies around the world, and each of them have their own little calculation of what their algorithms to predict where a storm will go. And when you project all of those predictions on a map on top of one another, basically it looks like strands of spaghetti representing the possible paths of a storm. I mean, the other thing I wasn't able to get into in the piece is that not only do we monitor whatever's available publicly, I think everybody in the city has their own kind of inside source within Army Corps of Engineers or city government, that it's a bit obsessive. But of course, it's pretty high stakes. You know, hurricane season ends in November 30, technically, but in New Orleans, it never ends.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And you said we are as prepared as anyone can be with the certain knowledge that one day a storm will come for which no preparations will suffice.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yeah. On some psychological level, many of us have made peace with that. You know, maybe because there's no evading the reality of what we're up against.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You outlined something called the Coastal Master Plan, which has been endorsed by the city leadership. You describe it as the world's most expensive and most ambitious climate change adaptation plan. What makes it so incredible?

[Nathaniel Rich]

The master plan is enormous. It's essentially an omnibus plan of, on the order of 200 projects to build land, to preserve land, to restore land. And then there's also a whole host of mitigation efforts built into it. It's a $50 billion plan, although that's seen as a gross understatement, that renews every five years. So it's. It's in perpetuity, a 50 year plan.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And it's currently underway that would mitigate Louisiana's severe loss of coastal land, which was the number one problem by essentially creating new land.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yeah. The core of the plan is called river diversion. So they basically cut a gap into the levee in the riverbank and open up a new tributary of the river. And so strong is the flow of the Mississippi that even cutting these little diversions are enormously forceful. They've pinpointed two such places on the river, one on the east bank, one on the west bank. South of New Orleans, they would create.

[Brooke Gladstone]

New rivers that would be among the five most powerful in the U.S. what's.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Important to understand is effectively what the engineers are trying to do is to mimic the natural behavior of the Mississippi river, which before human settlement and before the construction of levees, would change course every year and flood its banks. And every time it flooded, it would deposit this silty water and over generations, that all that silt would cohere and build up into land. They've already begun sort of the basic construction, but in the last couple weeks, it's now come under some threat from the governor.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And yet the planners concede it's not going to really solve the big issue, which is saving the coast. It's just buying time. It's soberly facing the reality of climate change.

[Nathaniel Rich]

The genius of the plan, I think, and, or really the shrewdness of it, is that it's an enormously ambitious plan that doesn't ultimately intend to solve the major problem it addresses. But what it does do is it buys time. It might buy decades or even generations of time to prepare for that eventuality.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Even in one of the nation's reddest states, it won wide bipartisan support. But there is one constituency strongly opposed. That's the oystermen, the shrimpers, the fishermen in the Gulf 10 miles downriver of New Orleans. So why are they so against the plan?

[Nathaniel Rich]

So the people living south of New Orleans who are the most threatened by sea level rise, by hurricanes, who live on this very narrow spit of land between the Mississippi and the swamps behind them, which lead to the Gulf and that are being eroded at this rapid rate, they are against the master plan because this pumping in of the Mississippi river water into the marshes behind their houses will alter drastically the fisheries that they use to make their livelihoods.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So they have to choose between saving their homes or saving their livelihoods, and they've picked their livelihoods.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Well, it's really a question of timescale. They're not climate deniers down there. It's a very conservative parish. But they don't need to be convinced that the water is rising. They've seen the swamp disappear, they've seen places that used to be land turn into ocean, open water. However, they're not really concerned about what's going to happen to them 10 or 15 or 30 years from now. They're concerned about whether they'll be able to make a living in the next year. I think that's valid. They're not making anything up, but a decision has been made. I don't think the decision makers would put it in so crudely, but a decision has been made essentially to sacrifice the livelihood of a lot of these people down there in order to benefit the whole and save the much broader economies that are just upriver from the parish. But it's created a political problem that's now threatening to be a real nightmare for the engineers and the other populations that are depending on the master plan being built.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In fact, Governor Jeff Landry, who was just elected this year, has been speaking out because he says it would, quote, break parts of Louisiana's culture because of the harm to these Gulf fishing communities.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yeah, he's giving them now priority over the voices of everyone else, which, you know, not only includes, you know, greater metropolitan New Orleans and the millions of people who live in fear of hurricanes coming over these. These depleted marshes, but frankly, his. His leading constituency, which is the oil and gas industry, enormously powerful in Louisiana, you could even say runs the state basically in a petro imperium down here.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And they support the plan.

[Nathaniel Rich]

They support the plan because even though they've helped bring about many of the conditions that have forced this plan upon us, including putting pipelines and shipping canals through the marsh, not to mention greenhouse gas emissions, those industries have enormous infrastructures.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Just wondering, has there been any discussion of the potential ecological harm of diverting the Mississippi river, the second most toxic river in the country, on plants and wildlife and fishing ecosystems?

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yes, it's been enormously well studied and extensively. And the one that's gained the most press and sort of most political value, I think, for the critics, is that it will lead to the death of something like 200 bottlenose dolphins that don't kill the dolphins. Well, I mean, the counterargument would be not to defend dolphin murder, but they're swimming in places in the that historically they never would have been. In fact, historically it would have been dry land. And so they're only that close because the marshes are disappearing. But absolutely, I mean, flooding the swamps will have some negative impacts. There was this moment in which the fishermen had been failing for years to get anyone to care about them and their plight. And they realized that if they started talking about dolphins, all of a sudden the press coverage become much more favorable. And so overnight, all of these fishermen became these kind of sort of Free Willy advocates and started giving dolphin tours and so on.

[Brooke Gladstone]

That is an important media point.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Well, they realized that people care more about dolphins than working class fishermen in.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Your piece, you quote Ben Strauss, who's head of Climate Central. That's a. A nonprofit composed of scientists and science journalists that report and also conduct research on climate change. And Strauss said, quote, people find it very hard to accept that a city like New Orleans at some point will not exist anymore. But why don't we think of the life of a city the way that we think about the life of a human being? Just because our lives are finite doesn't mean that they're worthless. And I think that's the point in your piece that actually hit me the hardest. And I thought it could really be applied to a whole host of situations in the world today.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yeah, it hit me hard, too, when I first heard that. And, you know, it was told to me by Torturenquist, who's a professor of Tulane. It did put things into perspective for me because I realized that we have this fantasy, at least in this country, that cities are forever, that the culture is forever. And that's just not true. Civilizations are not forever. And that's not, however, a reason to just give in to nihilism or despair. A problem we have facing climate change as a species, psychologically, is that we can't look at it to directly. It's a bit like looking at one's own death, because we're talking about civilizational death. That's what's on the table. And once you can get there, once you can accept the idea of mortality, it focuses your thinking and it forces you to really question what you value. It forces you to prioritize. And in New Orleans, people live with full knowledge that the city will not live forever. And yet that does not make people give up for the most part. It makes people commit more fully to the life of the place.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I know a lot of people in their 30s who really feel hopeless about the future. Everything from thinking there isn't gonna be a place to live, to not going to be able to get Social Security when they're old or any number of things. And it is easy to throw up. I just wonder, is there a way that this message of cherishing the moment in which we actually spend our lives can be an impetus to change?

[Nathaniel Rich]

Yes. But I also think there's a kind of in between place, which is to say that I don't think the message of New Orleans is les le bonso roulet and just get drunk and hope for the best. Although, of course, that's the way some people respond. But I think it's a message that forces one to try to improve the place and to withstand some of these pressures that are coming at us. This binary of hope and despair which has so dominated the conversation in activist circles in this country for the last couple decades. Whenever I speak with people in Europe about climate change issues, that whole binary doesn't enter into the conversation. If anything, people in Europe, especially northern Europe, are far more pessimistic than would be allowed in any kind of activist circle in the US and yet the policies tend to be much more progressive. And so I do wonder also to what extent is that a symptom of American culture, that everything that needs to be placed into this kind of marvel universe of are we going to save the world or are we going to fall into this apocalypse? It's a kind of mental shortcut that prevents us from thinking of real measures that we can take to improve our lot in the meantime.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In the meantime meaning in the moment, you know, does thinking about the future enable us not just to plan for the future, but to better appreciate the moment? Is that what New Orleans teaches us?

[Nathaniel Rich]

Absolutely. And I think people who decide to live here, who have the ability to live other places, you know, you see a much stronger commitment to the place, to the life of the place, I think, here than in other cities I've lived in. If you're here, you're here for a reason. Now, a lot of people are here who would leave if the rate of poverty wasn't as high as it is. And yet there's still this sense, I think, in the city, the culture of the city, that the people who are here are dedicated to it. And so there's a level of civic engagement that feels to me much more robust than I've encountered in other places. Part of it has to do with this shared sense of peril, frankly, precarity.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Thank you so much.

[Nathaniel Rich]

Thank you.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Nathaniel Rich is the author of Second Scenes from a World Remade and a contributing writer to the New York Times Magazine. Thanks for listening to the on the Media midweek podcast. Tune into the big show on Friday evening to hear us trace the crisis in masculinity through Michael Douglas films, of course. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Ira Flatow]

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