The New 'State Media.' Plus, Podcasters Are Running the FBI.

Summary

Summary of "On the Media" Episode: The New 'State Media.' Plus, Podcasters Are Running the FBI.

Hosts: Brooke Gladstone and Michael Loewinger
Podcast: On the Media, WNYC Studios
Release Date: March 1, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of On the Media, hosts Brooke Gladstone and Michael Loewinger explore the evolving landscape of media influence within the U.S. government. They discuss the White House's recent decision to expand its press pool to include new media voices, the appointment of podcasters to high-ranking FBI positions, and the broader implications for free speech, government transparency, and media credibility. Additionally, the episode touches on the shifting dynamics of the Republican Party's stance toward Russia and President Trump's ongoing admiration for Vladimir Putin amidst the prolonged conflict in Ukraine.

---

Expansion of the White House Press Room to New Media Voices

Opening Up to Non-Traditional Media

The White House has initiated a significant change by inviting a broader array of media professionals into the briefing room. This includes independent journalists, podcasters, social media influencers, and content creators, breaking away from the traditional All-Protected Correspondents' Association (WHCA) model.

Anna Merlin [04:54]: "We're also opening up this briefing room to new media voices who produce news-related content and whose outlet is not already represented by one of the seats in this room."

Brooke Gladstone [05:29]: "Moving forward, the White House press pool will be determined by the White House press team... deserving outlets who have never been allowed to share in this awesome responsibility."

Criticism of the New Media Entrants

Many of the newly appointed media figures have backgrounds that raise concerns about their objectivity and credibility. Anna Merlin, a senior reporter at Mother Jones, criticizes the selection of these individuals, labeling them as propagandists lacking genuine journalistic integrity.

Anna Merlin [09:20]: "Spare me the idea that any of the members of this press corps who are standing right behind me right now give a damn about free speech, because they don't. They're the state media. They're these state propagandists that frankly the CCP would envy."

---

Profiles of New Media Correspondents and Their Backgrounds

Dan Bongino

Dan Bongino, a former Secret Service agent and conservative podcaster, has been appointed as the Deputy Director of the FBI. His transition from a law enforcement background to a high-ranking federal position underscores the merging of media influence and governmental power.

Dan Bongino [02:00]: "Oh, no, I don't leave."

Brandi Zadrozhny [24:18]: "He used his proximity as a Secret Service agent... as a way to thrust him into politics."

Natalie Winters

Natalie Winters, associated with Steve Bannon's war room, has a history of writing biased stories without disclosing her funding sources, raising questions about her journalistic ethics.

Anna Merlin [08:41]: "Natalie Winters was paid by the backers of a Chinese businessman accused of fraud to write flattering stories about him for various right-wing publications."

Allison Steinberg and Kara Castronova

Members of the Mike Lindell Media group, Allison Steinberg and Kara Castronova, bring their backgrounds from right-wing news sites to the White House press pool, further blurring the lines between media and political advocacy.

Anna Merlin [10:32]: "Her name is Allison Steinberg... eager and excited to bring truth and shine light into the darkness."

Mary Margaret Olahan

A representative from The Daily Wire, Mary Margaret Olahan, exemplifies the type of content creators now given access to White House briefings. Her activities include sharing executive orders and presidential accomplishments on social media.

Anna Merlin [11:20]: "To date, her work has involved things like tweeting screenshots of executive orders and taking a video of President Trump walking into a room."

---

Critical Analysis of the New Media's Role and Credibility

The inclusion of these new media voices is met with skepticism regarding their commitment to unbiased reporting and their potential role in spreading misinformation.

Anna Merlin [09:20]: "All they do is carry water and carry the talking points... they don't care about free speech."

Brooke Gladstone [03:06]: "Here are some of the flagrant scams that... we've been able to recapture."

The Illusory Truth Effect

Brooke Gladstone discusses the psychological phenomenon where repeated statements are perceived as more truthful, highlighting the dangers of misinformation being perpetuated through repetition.

Brooke Gladstone [04:41]: "The illusory truth effect... it's easier to process and so are perceived to be more truthful than follow-up statements."

---

The FBI's Leadership and the Appointment of Dan Bongino

Appointment and Background

Dan Bongino's appointment as Deputy Director of the FBI marks a significant shift toward incorporating media figures with strong political biases into federal law enforcement roles.

Anna Merlin [23:00]: "Dan Bongino will serve as the FBI second in command to the agency's director, Cash Patel."

Bongino's Influence in Right-Wing Media

Bongino's rise in media, particularly through his podcast, has solidified his status as a prominent figure in conservative circles, often promoting conspiracy theories and anti-FBI narratives.

Brandi Zadrozhny [25:20]: "He became a huge proponent of this conspiracy theory called Spygate..."

Impact on FBI's Direction

Under Cash Patel's leadership, the FBI is experiencing significant organizational changes, including the relocation of agents and unconventional training initiatives.

Michael Loewinger [23:00]: "Planned to move some 1500 FBI agents out of D.C. and into field offices around the country."

Cash Patel [23:57]: "I discuss partisan content in an opinion show can go and do an unquestionably nonpartisan job."

---

Dan Bongino's History and Influence in Right-Wing Media

Early Career and Podcasting

Dan Bongino launched his podcast, "The Dan Bongino Show," in 2015, which gained significant traction by aligning closely with Trump's narratives and fostering a loyal conservative audience.

Brandi Zadrozhny [25:39]: "He really jumped whole hog onto the Trump train... latching onto pro-Trump narratives."

Promotion of Conspiracy Theories

Bongino has been instrumental in spreading unfounded claims about FBI interference and election fraud, contributing to the erosion of trust in federal institutions.

Dan Bongino [30:36]: "The FBI is lost, it's broken. Irredeemably corrupt at this point."

Media Strategy and Platform Shifts

Bongino adeptly navigated media bans, transitioning his podcast to platforms like Rumble to maintain and grow his influence.

Brandi Zadrozhny [27:43]: "Bongino was Rumble's first major creator... Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk are all on Rumble now."

---

The FBI's Current State Under Cash Patel

Organizational Changes

Cash Patel has made significant moves to restructure the FBI, including relocating agents and introducing unconventional training programs.

Cash Patel [23:57]: "I will now be on the ground giving live updates from DC in this era of fake news."

Politicization Concerns

Patel and Bongino's appointments raise alarms about the potential politicization of the FBI, undermining its role as an impartial law enforcement agency.

Brandi Zadrozhny [31:53]: "Assume... he thinks it's a corrupt organization... needs to be disbanded."

Potential Threats to Journalistic Integrity

The merging of media personalities with federal roles poses risks to journalistic standards and the protection of democratic processes.

Anna Merlin [34:28]: "It wouldn't surprise me if Bongino and the other loyalists... move some of their targets to the media itself."

---

The Shift in the Republican Stance on Russia and Putin

Changing Attitudes

The Republican Party, influenced by Trump, has exhibited a softened stance toward Russia and its president, Vladimir Putin, diverging from their previously hawkish positions.

Brooke Gladstone [39:00]: "This is a profound shift in especially the Republican Party's once very hawkish stance on Russia."

Trump's Admiration for Putin

Trump's continued admiration for Putin reflects a significant realignment within the party, emphasizing a shared authoritarian discourse that resonates with certain conservative factions.

Yaroslav Trofimov [42:53]: "If you see how Trump is speaking now about global politics, it's very much just like Putin, 19th century imperialist discourse."

---

Russia’s War in Ukraine and Its Coverage

Putin's Strategic Narratives

Vladimir Putin has masterfully crafted narratives that portray Russia as a defender of traditional values, masking the brutal realities of the war in Ukraine.

Dan Bongino [38:25]: "You have to be thankful you don't have the cars. You're buried there. People are dying."

Historical Memory and Cultural Destruction

The war in Ukraine is not only a territorial conflict but also a battle over historical memory, with Russia attempting to erase Ukrainian history and culture.

Yaroslav Trofimov [49:24]: "Ukraine underwent a man-made famine, the Holodomor... Russia not just denies, but tries to destroy."

Impact on Ukrainian Society

The deliberate targeting of Ukrainian intellectuals and cultural figures underscores Russia's intent to dismantle the nation's historical and cultural identity.

Yaroslav Trofimov [52:07]: "The cycle of physical elimination of Ukrainian voices... speaking Ukrainian... is already a crime against the Russian state."

Media Portrayal and Public Perception

The coverage of the war has been influenced by political narratives that either demonize Ukraine or obscure Russia's aggressive actions, leading to a confused public understanding of the conflict.

Brooke Gladstone [44:08]: "Russia's war against Ukraine is fundamentally a struggle over historical memory."

---

Concluding Thoughts

This episode of On the Media highlights the troubling convergence of new media influencers with governmental power structures, particularly within the White House press pool and the FBI. The appointment of individuals with strong political biases and backgrounds in conspiracy-driven media raises critical questions about the future of journalistic integrity, governmental transparency, and the safeguarding of democratic institutions. Additionally, the analysis of Russia's engagement in Ukraine and its portrayal within American media underscores the complex interplay between historical memory and contemporary political narratives.

Anna Merlin [17:40]: "This is about preserving fundamental elements of our democracy."

Brandi Zadrozhny [35:08]: "I can't believe it. It does send a signal to other creators that this is the way to power."

This comprehensive exploration serves as a critical examination of the current media landscape's vulnerabilities and the potential threats posed by the infiltration of partisan media figures into key government roles.

---

Note: The timestamps correspond to the moments in the transcript where the quotes were taken, providing context and authenticity to the summary.

Transcript

[Brooke Gladstone]

The White House has filled the briefing room with Trump loyalists and they're asking the hard hitting questions.

[Michael Loewinger]

Break that speech from President Trump.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Can we expect that pace to continue.

[Michael Loewinger]

As the first hundred days moves along here?

[Anna Merlin]

Absolutely.

[Brooke Gladstone]

From WNYC in New York, this is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Michael Loewinger]

And I'm Michael Ohinger. Also on this week's show, Trump's government of right wing influencers expands with a cop turned podcaster joining the FBI.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Bongino was smart, young, using his proximity as a Secret Service agent as a way to suggest that he was in the room and that this proximity birthed in him this desire to root out bureaucratic Washington. No goodness.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Plus, three years into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Trump's still charmed by Putin.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

If you see how Trump is speaking now about global politics, it's very much just like Putin.

[Michael Loewinger]

It's all coming up after this.

[N/A]

On the Media is supported by Doubleday Books, publisher of Strangers in the Land. New Yorker writer Michael Wo traces the epic history of Chinese exclusion and their struggle to truly belong in America. Spanning from the 19th century to modern times, Strangers in the Land is a must read for anyone interested in American history and understanding the current anti immigrant moment. Available wherever books are sold.

[Brooke Gladstone]

On the Media is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Michael Loewinger]

From WNYC in New York, this is ON the Media. I'm Michael Loewinger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. How about launching with Chico Marks? Your Excellency, I thought you left.

[Dan Bongino]

Oh, no, I don't leave.

[Anna Merlin]

But I saw you with my own eyes.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, who are you going to believe.

[Dan Bongino]

Me or your own eyes?

[Brooke Gladstone]

I think for many news consumers, what makes this moment so maddening is how the truth has so little bearing on policy. For instance, Elon Musk's Department of government efficiency claims $65 billion in savings.

[Michael Loewinger]

But.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But for all the calamitous chaos it's causing nationwide, it can show receipts for only about 9.6 billion. As for its claims of rampant corruption, deceased Social Security recipients and missing federal workers, no receipts at all. No matter.

[Dan Bongino]

Here are some of the flagrant scams that as an example, they've spent money on and we've been able to recapture. $520 million for a consultant to. $520 million. 520.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The President at the Conservative Political Action Conference last Saturday. But not just there. All month he's been decrying this scam to governors at the White House.

[Dan Bongino]

$520 million was given for a consultant to do ESG. That's Environmental, Social and Governance Investments in Africa.

[Brooke Gladstone]

520 million signing executive orders at Mar a Lago.

[Dan Bongino]

$520 million for a consultant on the environment. It's called Environmental, Social and Governance investments in Africa. $520 million.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The Washington Post's Fact Checker in chief, Glenn Kessler had a field day on this one. For one thing, he found that much of the contract had already been awarded, so Trump can't brag about getting back. 5. For another, social and governance activities are not in the contract. And best of all, the contract was to promote investment and American business under a program started by Trump. But undeterred, he'll repeat what he chooses. His media will repeat it too. And just like his claim that the Capitol riot was a day of peace and love, ultimately we'll begin to suspect our lying eyes. The important thing is the repetition. Now, there's been a fair amount of research on something called the illusory truth effect. First identified in 1977. It's found that repeated statements are easier to process and so are perceived to be more truthful than follow up statements. In the press. We call those follow ups fact checks. So this segment is about repetition in the context of the President's media. At his administration's first press briefing last month, Press Secretary Caroline Levitt announced a shakeup in the briefing room.

[Anna Merlin]

We're also opening up this briefing room to new media voices who produce news related content and whose outlet is not already represented by one of the seats in this room. We welcome independent journalists, podcasters, social media influencers and content creators to apply for credentials to cover this White House.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Meanwhile, the White House announced this week that the White House Correspondents association would no longer be choosing who gets to fill the precious 49 seats, seats in the briefing room or who writes the pool reports when the President is on the road.

[Anna Merlin]

Moving forward, the White House press pool will be determined by the White House press team. Legacy outlets who have participated in the press pool for decades will still be allowed to join. Fear not. But we will also be offering the privilege to, well, deserving outlets who have never been allowed to share in this awesome responsibility.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So who are these new media voices coming in from the cold? Many of the chosen are the very conspiracy theorists, theorists, propagandists and far right influencers that Anna Merlin covers a senior reporter at Mother Jones. She says the seat that's designated especially for new media, and here the occupants rotate, have held actual reporters, but also those who don't report, but merely praise, like John Stoll, the head of news at X.

[Michael Loewinger]

And I also thank you, Caroline, for opening the seat up to new media. It really is a testament not only to your open mindedness, but also to innovation that you'd actually think about folks that are not traditionally credentialed to be in this room. To be in this room.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And here's Rumble podcaster John Ashbrook using his seat to search for truth.

[Michael Loewinger]

Thank you very much. You know, Caroline, in your first briefing, the media went after this administration for deporting illegal immigrants they claimed were not criminals. The question is, do you think they're out of touch with Americans demanding action on our border crisis?

[Anna Merlin]

The media out of touch? I think that media certainly is.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So is that how this goes?

[Anna Merlin]

That's how this goes. I'm sorry, I'm not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing because these are incredible levels of comment. Not a question. If I had asked a question like this of a Democratic administration, I think it would have gone viral on Twitter with people making fun of me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So let's go through some of these new media names like Jack Posobic. He's a senior editor of Human Events, a far right publication, and he recently traveled with Treasury Secretary Scott Besant to Ukraine.

[Anna Merlin]

So Jack Posovich is a far right activist and podcaster, and he came onto the scene first during the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, which, as you remember, was a false conspiracy theory about child trafficking happening in the basement of a pizza parlor.

[Brooke Gladstone]

In Washington, D.C. by Democrats and maybe run by Hillary Clinton.

[Anna Merlin]

Indeed, that was the conspiracy theory, despite the fact that the pizza parlor, as you'll recall, did not have a basement. So Posobec first came on the scene to promote Pizzagate, and actually in 2017, as I wrote, he was briefly granted White House press credentials during the first Trump administration when he was working for a Canadian outlet called Rebel Media, a sort of right wing outlet. And at the time, that made news, as did the fact that the Trump administration was granting press passes to other places like Infowars and a conspiratorial outlet called Gateway Pundit. And Posobic didn't last long in the briefing room then, but this time he's even skipping being in the briefing room at all. And now he's just traveling with members of the administration.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Also on the scene is Natalie Winters, a correspondent for Steve Bannon's war room. Tell me about her.

[Anna Merlin]

Natalie Winters is an interesting figure. She is very young and she's just been named as an investigative reporter and White House correspondent at Steve Bannon's war room. As my colleagues at Mother Jones have written, in one of her previous roles, she was paid by the backers of a Chinese businessman accused of fraud to write flattering stories about him for various right wing publications. Those stories did not disclose that she was being paid by the backers of that businessman. And we should also note, like Natalie Winters, Carolyn Levitt, the press secretary, was also previously paid by allies of the same Chinese businessman and convicted fraudster that Natalie Winters was paid by to put her name on op EDS in right wing news outlets praising his work.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Winters went on to falsely accuse Mother Jones of of being a Beijing propaganda front in an article for the right wing Headline usa. So I guess she's known for throwing punches back. She did it on Wednesday on the White House lawn.

[Anna Merlin]

She did. Spare me the idea that any of the members of this press corps who are standing right behind me right now give a damn about free speech, because they don't. They're the state media. They're these state propagandists that frankly the CCP would envy. All they do is carry water and carry the talking points, whether it be the intel community, the Biden regime, the Pentagon, the deep state, you name it. I think the White House needs to strip these people of their seats, fill it with new media. I'm so disgusted of these people and their sense of superiority.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Now, Mike Lindell, my pillow guy who was also an election fraud conspiracy theorist, now has the Mike Lindell Media group that has two White House correspondents, right?

[Anna Merlin]

Yes, it is fascinating. One of them is a former professional makeup artist turned political pundit. And the press release about her hiring talks a lot about her patriotism and her belief that God has placed her at the MyPillow Guys TV network. Her name is Allison Steinberg and in her press release she said, I will now be on the ground giving live updates from DC in this era of fake news, I'm eager and excited to bring truth and shine light into the darkness.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Who's the other one?

[Anna Merlin]

Kara Castronova, who is a former reporter for Gateway Pundit and Newsmax, which are both right wing news sites. And she's identified as an investigative journalist and an athlete. I believe she's a former boxer.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And the Daily Wire has sent Mary Margaret Olahan, who's the author of a book about people who in the words of a subtitle escaped the gender ideology cult. And who's Instagrammed herself partying at Trump's Mar A Lago? Does she have a hard press pass or was she just in one of those rotating seats?

[Anna Merlin]

I believe she has a hard pass. Two other Daily Wire figures delivered these remarks, talking about needing to be in the briefing room and needing to, quote, bring the American public these stories and sharing with them the truth that legacy media has no intention of ever sharing with them. Or to date, her work in that department has involved things like tweeting screenshots of executive orders, taking a video of President Trump walking into a room, and tweeting photos of a list of accomplishments that White House staff handed out to reporters.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So you know former ESPN host Sage Steele has gotten a turn in the new media seed.

[Anna Merlin]

Yes, Sage Steele became increasingly involved in right wing media circles after leaving ESPN and settling a lawsuit with them. So what was interesting about was that she was in the new media seat on February 5 and asked a question about, quote, men in women's sports, which is clearly a transphobic reference to trans women. And then hours later, she was standing behind President Trump at an event where he was signing an executive order that purported to keep, quote, men out of women's sports.

[Brooke Gladstone]

There was also a shakeup of pool reporters who cover Trump. For people who may not get the significance of that, could you tell me about the White House Correspondents association and how it came to have that power?

[Anna Merlin]

The White House Correspondents association is over 100 years old. And for decades, people who are part of the Correspondents association news outlets have been part of the press pool on a rotating basis. So at events like on Air Force One or other places where the full media can't be accommodated, a member of the WHCA is sent and they deliver what are called these pool reports where they just write down a very fact based, very straightforward recounting of whatever happened in these moments when the full press isn't there. Instead, what the White House is doing here is they're saying, we're going to choose who has access to the President. And it's not a stretch to think that outlets like Steve Bannon's war room are going to approach pool reports differently than NBC or the New York Times does.

[Brooke Gladstone]

One thing we haven't actually spent a lot of time on is the fact that the official White House statements, some of them were going to be made available not by the White House, but on X.

[Anna Merlin]

And actually now you can't see statements on X unless you are logged in and it requires you to have an X account. So as far as transparency goes and basic accessibility goes, it's not great in a lot of ways. We're seeing access to information narrowing. We're seeing a hostility towards the idea that the administration is accountable to answering questions and giving statements to the press and to the public in ways that people find disturbing.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I guess one thing that we can count on that hasn't changed is that the press secretary continues the long Trump legacy of deriding the legacy media from the podium.

[Anna Merlin]

That is true. They are continuing to do that.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Sarah Huckabee Sanders was certainly full of division. And of course, Sean Spicer infamously chided the legacy media for accurately reporting on the size of Trump's inauguration. Here's a clip of Melissa McCarthy on SNL doing Sean Spicer. We'll do a couple questions.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Go.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Glenn Thrush, New York Times.

[Cash Patel]

Boo.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Go ahead. Yeah, I wanted to ask about the.

[Michael Loewinger]

Travel ban on Muslims.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah, it's not a ban. I'm sorry?

[Anna Merlin]

It's not a ban.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The travel ban is not a ban.

[Anna Merlin]

Which makes it not a ban.

[Dan Bongino]

But you just called it a ban.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You said ban. Now I'm saying it. The President tweeted and I quote, if.

[Michael Loewinger]

The ban were announced with a one week notice.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Exactly. You just said that. He's quoting you. It's your words.

[Anna Merlin]

You can make a good case that the relationship between the White House and the press should be fundamentally adversarial. Right?

[Brooke Gladstone]

And it always has been.

[Anna Merlin]

Yes, it always has been. And of course, people were critical, for instance, of the Biden administration and of Joe Biden for holding fewer press conferences than previous presidents. These are long standing arguments. And we should note, I'm not a White House reporter. I don't cover the White House in person. I am a reporter who writes about conspiracy theories. And the outlets that I have covered for years are now the ones that are often present for these events. Breaking news, getting a version of exclusives, I guess you could call them, which is very interesting for me to be watching, you know, InfoWars as part of my regular coverage and to see quotes from administration officials.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It is unusual, but those press conferences never have offered much in the way of facts. And Levitt doesn't ever really answer the media's questions in any case. And what happens in that briefing room is accessible to all. So I wonder if maybe there's an upside here for the fact based media. I'm guessing they could spend their time more productively.

[Anna Merlin]

Well, here's how I think about it investigative reporting, scoops, investigations, those don't happen because you get access to the White House briefing room. Right. I think everybody is clear that that's not the role that those things serve. But it is important for a democratic society to have members of the administration up there taking questions from the press, as much of the press as possible. This is about, I'm sorry to be overstating things here, but this is about preserving fundamental elements of our democracy. You know, so while the fact based, legacy mainstream media, whatever you want to call it, can spend our time doing other things, I think what this says about accountability on the part of the White House is not great.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Anna, thank you very much.

[Anna Merlin]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Anna Merlin is a senior reporter at Mother Jones covering disinformation, technology and extremism.

[Michael Loewinger]

Coming up, podcasters now run the FBI. What could go wrong?

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the media.

[N/A]

WNYC Studios is supported by Ground News. Ground News is a platform that makes it easy to compare news organizations and break free from algorithms. With Ground News you get details about the source of your information, empowering you to compare how different news sources from around the world cover the same story. With over 9 and a half thousand 5 star reviews of their app and website, Ground News is a top platform that allows you to discover how any news story is being covered, giving every perspective all in one place. Expand your view of the news. Sign up for your Ground News account today and get access to the mobile app, website, browser extension and exclusive newsletters so you can have a well rounded view of the world. Think critically about what you read and find common ground between perspectives. Go to groundnews.com wnyctoday to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan and get access to all of their news analysis features. That's groundnews.com WNYC for 40% off the ground News Vantage Plan for a limited.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Time only on the media is supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary on how you buy.

[Michael Loewinger]

With a home equity investment from Home tab you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or handling emergency expenses. Receive your funds in just a few weeks, start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] Subject to eligibility, terms and conditions apply.

[Tanner Campbell]

That's hometap.com Ever wonder whether Stoicism is actually as terrible as all those red pilled bros on TikTok make it seem? I'm Tanner Campbell, American philosopher of stoicism and host of the Practical Stoicism podcast, and I'm here to tell you that thankfully those bros couldn't tell the difference between their you know what's and a hole in the ground, let alone teach anyone anything about any proper philosophy. Stoicism is an ancient Greek virtue ethics philosophy all about developing a morally just character and you can learn more about it by listening to my podcast, Practical Stoicism. Search for it today in your podcast player of choice and give it a go. I'm certain you'll find it, at the very least, informative.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Michael Loewinger]

And I'm Michael Oinger. It's a maga media world and we're all just living in it.

[Dan Bongino]

The DOJ may be releasing the list.

[Michael Loewinger]

Of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.

[Anna Merlin]

Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now.

[Michael Loewinger]

Attorney General Pam Bondi on Fox Wednesday after Congressional Republicans sent letters to the DOJ demanding the release of a new trove of classified Epstein records that may or may not exist.

[Anna Merlin]

I'm reviewing JFK files, MLK files. That's all in the process of being reviewed because that was done at the directive of the President from all of these agencies.

[Michael Loewinger]

Then on Thursday, Libs of TikTok, Mike Cernovich and a group of far right personalities got special access to the release.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Today, the White House made a big.

[Cash Patel]

Show of handing a bunch of conservative.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Influencers binders labeled the Epstein files Phase one.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

But the whole stunt was a bust.

[Michael Loewinger]

The binders made for a nice photo op, but they contained nothing that hadn't been disclosed in prior leaks and court records For a group of influencers who present themselves as the replacement for the White House press corps, they are, in a way, getting what they asked for, lies and obfuscation straight from the administration, the kind that even spin doctors can't spin.

[Anna Merlin]

What's interesting is we're all waiting for bombshells. We're all waiting for juicy stuff.

[Michael Loewinger]

And that's not what's in this binder.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

That's not what's in this binder at all.

[Michael Loewinger]

It is the biggest disappointment, I think, that you'll find. I encourage you to do your own homework. The real winner of this farce was the Trump White House, which disclosed nothing new that could harm its own while still driving attention to its far right echo chamber, a breeding ground for propagandists, conspiracy theories and now civil servants.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Remember Watergate? We had political operatives break into a building to steal information which is 100% criminal and people are prosecuted, and rightly so.

[Michael Loewinger]

This is Cash Patel, now director of the FBI, speaking on his podcast Cash's Corner in 2022.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Now you have a six year saga of criminal activity from Russiagate to the raid. And it's the same people at the FBI DOJ who started and launched Russiagate that are now supervising and doing the Mar A Lago raid. The search warrant.

[Michael Loewinger]

In his first full week on the job, Patel announced he planned to move some 1500 FBI agents out of D.C. and into field offices around the country. He asked mixed martial arts fighters from the UFC to help train FBI agents and he broke a big promise about who would fill the deputy director role, his number two, according to the FBI Agents Association. They say that Patel committed to them.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

That he was hoping to and interested in hiring a career FBI agent, as.

[Tanner Campbell]

Has always been the case in this job.

[Michael Loewinger]

Then on Sunday, President Trump has named.

[Anna Merlin]

A former Secret Service agent and conservative podcaster as the new Deputy Director of the FBI. Dan Bongino will serve as the FBI second in command to the agency's director, Cash Patel.

[Cash Patel]

I get it. If you were a political opponent of mine that has been involved with proudly celebrating a weaponized justice system, Bongino on.

[Michael Loewinger]

His podcast Monday, you don't understand how.

[Cash Patel]

A guy like me who discusses Partizan content in an opinion show can go and do a unquestionably nonpartisan job. Now I'm gonna ask you a simple question. Have you seen what I did before I came here? I'm committed to service. People play differently.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Bongino was pretty smart in terms of using his Secret Service background and really law enforcement background as a New York cop as a way to thrust him into politics.

[Michael Loewinger]

Brandi Zadrozny is a senior reporter at NBC News where she covers the Internet. She co authored the recent piece Dan Bongino's Years long History of FBI Criticism and Conspiracy Theories.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

He used this proximity as a Secret Service agent to Bush and then Obama as a way to suggest that he was in the room. He claimed that he was privy to the room where it happened during Obamacare and he saw the negotiations and he said it made him want to run so he could do something about it. Some of his Secret Service agent colleagues came forward and said we don't really get Access to the room where those things happen. He didn't win the elections that he ran for. He ran three separate times for different congressional seats. But he did sort of find a foothold in right wing Media.

[Michael Loewinger]

In 2015, he launched his podcast, the Dan Bongino Show. Initially, you've said it floundered, but then around 2017, he really jumped whole hog onto the Trump train. How did he come to embrace maga and what do you think this did for his following?

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Bongino 2015, 2016, had this little podcast. It wasn't really doing so well, but when his audience started to grow, it was clear that he understood the audience that he could sort of scoop up when he hitched his wagon to Trump's star. Then on to 2017, you saw him latch onto these narratives that were really, really pro Trump narratives. He became a huge proponent of this conspiracy theory called Spygate, this theory that the FBI was spying on Trump's 2016 campaign in an effort to rig the election for Hillary Clinton.

[Cash Patel]

The devastating disclosures of the FBI implanting confidential informants spies inside the Trump team were so devastating that the only way for the Democrats to get away from looking like a bunch of police stations tyrants was to insist that they weren't spying or investigating the Trump team, they were investigating the Russians.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Bongino suggested, as part of a larger narrative, that Democrats and biased members of the FBI were all colluding to steal the election from Trump.

[Michael Loewinger]

And this was kind of a departure for Bongino because prior to this, he had been fairly mild about the FBI on his show. Right.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Pretty deferential. He was a law and order guy. Remember that? Law and order, like that was the thing. What it is now is the institutions are bad, they are corrupt. And so someone like Bongino needs to go in and strip them of the DEI and the Democratic ideology and all the rest that has infiltrated and is now weaponized against Donald Trump.

[Michael Loewinger]

I want to talk a little bit about the infrastructure that allowed Bongino to have an explosively popular show. In 2022, he was banned from YouTube, where he would host the video version of his podcasts for his comments about the efficacy of masks during the pandemic. He then moved over to Rumble, which is sort of a right wing alternative to YouTube. What role did that site play in his ascendance?

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Huge. We in the media, myself included, I remember getting assignments because I was the Internet reporter and I would get assignments to look into the alternative media thing happening. And that was gab and rumble and a host of Other places that I just didn't think would be a thing and no one really did. But Bongino was really smart. Again, he saw the ascendancy of something that not many other people did. I think he was Rumble's first major creator, moving his show over there, and it's for me at least, someone who monitors right wing media. It's become sort of a one stop shop for how to monitor what right wing creators are doing now. And it's really effective in that way. Don Jr. Has a show there now. You can watch Steve Bannon to Charlie Kirk to everybody else. Everybody's on Rumble now over on Rumble.

[Michael Loewinger]

And in this sort of media empire that he's built, which has this video streaming component, he's on radio stations, he has a top 10 podcast, the Dan Bongino Show. As you mentioned, his rhetoric about the FBI has really heated up.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

So Bongino and his show really pushed this debunked idea that the FBI helped manipulate the 2020 campaign when it came to Trump. He was this huge fan of the Twitter files. When Elon Musk bought Twitter, he opened up internal documents to a handful of partisan journalists. And in these documents, everybody rooted through and what they came out with was that the government and the mainstream media was colluding and forcing social media companies to censor conservative Americans. That's not really what it was. Actually. When you really look at the Twitter files, you see really complicated decisions about content moderation that the government media and social media were sort of wrestling with. One example of something that Bongino really glommed onto was the Hunter Biden laptop story, and that is a New York Post story. The government was worried at the time about Russian meddling in the election and the planting of false stories. And they pointed it out to Twitter and Facebook and Twitter and Facebook leapt on it immediately. Both now say they regret that decision, but they probably shouldn't have strangled the reach of that New York Post story, the Hunter Biden laptop story, because the narrative from that was that two FBI.

[Cash Patel]

Agents have been identified in documents pressuring Facebook to suppress the Post's accurate and factual reporting about Hunter Biden. It sure looks as if the FBI deliberately pre censored a legitimate story for a political aim.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

The other thing that he has been quite extreme on surrounding January 6, he suggested that the FBI played a role in inciting or allowing the Capitol riot to happen.

[Cash Patel]

You're gonna start asking once you find out who really incited this, quote, insurrection. I'm telling you, this is an inside job.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

That was all Part of a plot to crack down on conservative activism. So he supported these ex FBI agents who were ousted for supporting January 6th and spreading these January 6th conspiracy theories inside the agency. They were put on leave and he sort of held them up and had them on his show, even painted them as whistleblowers, all as sort of, again, evidence that there was this inside job around January 6th and that the FBI was part of some cover up.

[Michael Loewinger]

Last year or so, he started calling the bureaucracy a threat to America. And now he will take the mantle as the number two position. And in a recent episode of his podcast, the sort of Victory Lap, where he's making the announcement himself, charting out the future of his program, he said he would help FBI Director Kash Patel, Attorney General Pam Bondi and President Trump realize their vision for the bureau. What is that vision?

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

It's important to know that he has repeatedly said that he refuses to move on from the stolen 2020 election because he says that it hasn't been studied thoroughly, it hasn't been investigated thoroughly. And now he's in a position with Kash Patel who says the same thing.

[Cash Patel]

The FBI is lost, it's broken. Irredeemably corrupt at this point, one would.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Assume, if he believes that it's a corrupt organization and it's filled with corrupt agents and needs to be, as he he's called it, disbanded. I assume that that is what we will see because that is what he has said.

[Michael Loewinger]

Bongino has made videos targeting you and your reporting as recently as last week. What has he been saying and why is he coming after you?

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

My beat is, we've talked about this before, but my early beat was, you know, the weirdos on the Internet. And around 2016, those weirdos, including Dan Bongino, became really politically important. Their field to Donald Trump and their loyalty to him became politically valuable. I'm not famous, but they know who I am, especially because I report on MIS and disinformation and a lot of their pet subjects revolve around that. I am often reporting on them. That is, a lot of times what Dan Bongino seemingly doesn't like about me is that I'm in his wheelhouse because a lot of reporters haven't found these people so politically important. And I've been along for the ride the whole time. Most recently, he was upset that I quibbled with the idea that USAID funded journalists because people that worked for USAID bought subscriptions to some papers. And so I think he called me a twit or something. What happens when he does this is that you as a reporter, are swarmed on social media by people who call themselves Bongino's army and people who say stuff like, you've been Bonjean owned, which is creative. Now, he is seemingly privy to the country's intelligence and information all at his fingertips. And so what does he do with that new power? How does he use that?

[Michael Loewinger]

Are you worried he's going to come after you?

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Gosh, I really. I don't know what to expect anymore. Again, I think we're in this moment of we're finding out. When you think about this conspiracy theory of the witch hunts against Donald Trump, one pillar of this conspiracy theory is the belief that members of the media are in cahoots with all of the other arms of the people that are involved in this plan to steal the election or whatever against Donald Trump. And so it wouldn't surprise me if Bongino and the other loyalists that are now in power move some of their targets to the media itself.

[Michael Loewinger]

Brendan Dilley, who is a sort of colleague and contemporary of Dan Bongino, recently made a very interesting observation, which is that he and his buddies in this far right podcaster universe, who were once on the outside conspiracizing about the FBI, are now literally on the inside. So much so that he said there's.

[Anna Merlin]

Gonna be nobody left doing podcasts soon.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Because the top people are all going.

[Tanner Campbell]

To work for the government.

[Michael Loewinger]

As somebody who's been along for the ride for so long, Brandi, what is it like to see these people welcomed in to the seat of American power?

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

Bananas. Absolutely bananas. I can't believe it. I really can't believe it. And I think it does send a signal to other creators that this is the way to power. I can name a million creators that started as like, nothing, libs of TikTok nothing, and is now affecting decisions at Doge, which is affecting every piece of our government. I think that once, where Dan Bongino was sort of alone, was one of the few people operating in this way and making this kind of media. Now, I think there are a long line of successors. People are trying to recreate the magic of that formula, which again, is just owning the libs. Fealty to Donald Trump and provocative statements.

[Michael Loewinger]

Brandi, thank you very much.

[Brandi Zadrozhny]

My pleasure.

[Michael Loewinger]

Brandi Zadrozhny is a senior reporter at NBC News, covering the Internet.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Coming up, Russia's two pronged war in Ukraine involves bombing its people and erasing its history.

[Michael Loewinger]

This is on the media.

[N/A]

WNYC Studios is supported by Ground News. Ground News is a platform that makes it easy to compare news organizations and break free from algorithms. With Ground News you get details about the source of your information, empowering you to compare how different news sources from around the world cover the same story. With over 9 and a half thousand 5 star reviews of their app and website, Ground News is a top platform that allows you to discover how any news story is being covered, giving every perspective all in one place. Expand your view of the news. Sign up for your Ground News account today and get access to the mobile app, website, browser extension and exclusive newsletters so you can have a well rounded view of the world. Think critically about what you read and find common ground between perspectives. Go to groundnews.com wnyctoday to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan and get access to all of their news analysis features. That's groundnews.com WNYC for 40% off the ground News Vantage plan for a limited time only.

[Tanner Campbell]

Ever wonder whether Stoicism is actually as terrible as all those red pilled bros on TikTok make it seem? I'm Tanner Campbell, American philosopher of Stoicism and host of the Practical Stoicism podcast and I'm here to tell you that thankfully those bros couldn't tell the difference between their you know what's and a hole in the ground, let alone teach anyone anything about any proper philosophy. Stoicism is an ancient Greek virtue ethics philosophy all about developing a morally just character and you can learn more about it by listening to my podcast Practical Stoicism. Search for it today in your podcast player of choice and give it a go. I'm certain you'll find it, at the very least, informative.

[Michael Loewinger]

This is ON the media. I'm Michael Olinger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. This week marks three years since Vladimir Putin sent his army into Ukraine as part of a full scale invasion. On Friday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky went to the White House to meet with President Trump and Vice President J.D. vance in front of the cameras and.

[Dan Bongino]

I want to get this thing over with. You see the hatred he's got for Putin? It's very tough.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Then ensued. Well, just listen.

[Dan Bongino]

You have to be thankful you don't have the cars. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Listen, don't this mugging of a supposed American ally went on for more than 10 minutes.

[Dan Bongino]

You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing. Then you tell us. I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire. I want to go and I wanted this. Look, if you could get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Of course we want to stop the war.

[Dan Bongino]

But you're saying you don't want a ceasefire. I want a ceasefire because you get a ceasefire faster than any green.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Ask our people about ceasefire, what they think.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Afterwards, our president went on Truth Social and said that Zelenskyy had, quote, disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he's ready for peace. This is obviously a profound shift in especially the Republican Party's once very hawkish stance on Russia, and one that reflects reflects the particular preferences of Donald Trump. Here he is enthralled by Putin's wily recasting of Russia's initial incursions into Crimea just two days before he launched a direct attack on the Ukrainian capital Kiev in 2022.

[Dan Bongino]

I said, this is genius.

[Brooke Gladstone]

He loved the rhetorical spin that Putin put on his aggression.

[Dan Bongino]

Oh, that's wonderful. So Putin is now saying it's independent, a large section of Ukraine. I said, how smart is that? And he's going to go in and be a peacekeeper.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yaroslav Trofimov is the chief foreign affairs correspondent for the Wall Street Journal and author of no country for Love, a historical novel about tragedy and survival in Ukraine. Yaroslav, welcome to the show.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Great to be on the show.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Take us back to 2018. In July of that year in Helsinki, President Trump and Vladimir Putin had just met behind closed doors, and Trump emerges.

[Dan Bongino]

And says, our relationship has never been worse. That changed as of about four hours ago.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

The chemistry between Putin and Trump was something remarkable, was smiles and joy.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But then Trump was asked about the finding of American intelligence that the Russians were responsible for hacking the Democratic National Committee.

[Dan Bongino]

I have President Putin. He just said, it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

And the outrage was immediate. The leaders of the American national security establishment who were sitting in the front row in that press conference, complained on a flight back to the US and within 24 hours, President Trump said he had misspoken and he had been misunderstood. Trump actually ended up appointing Russia hawks like John Bolton introduced tougher sanctions on Russia and sold weapons to Ukraine, something that President Obama had refused to do. The pressure was so high at the time that he didn't really have the room for what he always wanted, which is a warmer relationship with President Putin.

[Brooke Gladstone]

He couldn't have that warmer relationship because there were some experienced professionals on his team the first time. Now those guardrails are gone, and he can say pretty much whatever he wants. Even that Ukraine started the war today, I heard.

[Dan Bongino]

Oh, well, we weren't invited. Well, you've been there for three years. You should have ended it. Three years. You should have never started it. You could have made a deal.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

The entire world was watching on February 24, 2022, as Russian tanks rolled across the border unprovoked. Saying that Ukraine started the war defies not just common sense, you know, your basic sensory faculties. And yet this obvious untruth truth was not challenged.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Why do you think Russia has this special appeal to Trump beyond business opportunities?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

If you talk to people who served in his administration, he was fascinated by the power that is wielded by Putin, or for that matter, Xi Jinping. He would always question, why can't I do this? Why can't they do so much more? There is also a shared vision of how the world should be running. If you see how Trump is speaking now about global politics, it's very much just like Putin, 19th century imperialist discourse.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's a view shared also by an ultra conservative portion of the Republican base, which now regards Russia as a kind of exemplar of traditional values, a social order reminiscent of the 50s. What is it that they think they see in Russia?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Yeah, that's really bizarre because there is the Russia as it exists, which is a country with one of the world's highest abortion, divorce rates, with a shrinking population, social crisis, massive immigration, by the way, mostly Muslim, and corruption that is endemic. And then there's this imagined Russia, in part because of very skillful propaganda by Putin to cast Russia as this Christian utopia, you know, haven for family values. In fact, as he's carrying out the war in Ukraine, where he's killing women and children and destroying cities and breaking families apart, driving millions from their homes and from their country. He's casting this as the war to preserve the values, to make sure our children are not corrupted by all these perversions imported from the west. And then they will always have only a father and a mother and not two fathers. And this discourse of traditional values is working.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But how is he spreading it? How are Americans consuming it? Who are the principal voices out there promoting this vision?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

First of all, you had for a long time outlets like Russia Today and Sputnik that were broadcasting in English, and they have a very skillful use of social media now, but also a lot of people that are promoted by Elon Musk on X are also promoting this narrative.

[Brooke Gladstone]

There was something you put in one of your articles that was so fascinating to me that Russia now has a special immigration program for Americans and others who are fleeing woke values. They have to pack up and put all their stuff in a push cart because of DEI, I guess. In February of 22, Putin said, We're fighting so that our children have one mother, one father, and. And no one is perverted by the decadent West. I have some tape of Joseph Rose, an American YouTuber who moved to Russia in 2022.

[Michael Loewinger]

Because right now you've got the west that's experimenting with living without traditional family values. And you've got traditional family values type people in the West, Christians, conservatives, people like that, going, oh my gosh, what's happening to my world?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

What do I do? They don't know that there is a.

[Michael Loewinger]

Place where they could live the life they want to live. And that's over here in Russia.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

It's remarkable how the language is being weaponized. What are the traditional values? The first traditional value is thou shalt not kill. Yet this entire part of the murderous nature of the Russian state is pretty obscured by the fact that, oh well, they banned gay marriage. They must be very traditional and Christian. It's a very I la carte way of choosing a traditional value.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And of course, to conduct this war, you really have to demonize the enemy. I don't know how many Americans are familiar with Alexander Dugan and the role he plays, but he does play a big role, right?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, I mean, big enough to be a guest of Tucker Carlson's show. He's a self described Russian fascist and he has a very complicated philosophy and view of the world, but it's basically fascism and imperialism and Russian supremacy. He kind of says that, well, you know, we can divide the world with Americans, you know, we get Europe, they can keep, maybe the British Isles.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Dugin has actually argued that ethnic Russians should take over the land from quote, Dublin to Vladivostok.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

I guess in other statements he's shown some flexibility and willingness over how to divide the world. But the fact is that. But what Putin was demanding ahead of the invasion of Ukraine when he was meeting the US in the summer of 2021 was not dramatically different. He was demanding the rollback of NATO to where it was at the end of the Cold War and what the Russians called the new security architecture of Europe, which means restoration of Russian control in one shape or another over central and Eastern Europe. And the Only reason that we're not talking about this right now is because Ukraine, which was supposed to be a three day special military operation, did not collapse. And the Russian army is bogged down and still unable to win the war which has given this reprieve to the rest of Europe.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You suggest that Russia has served as a great symbol for American politics over the years. Right now, for some, it's serving as a beacon of traditional values. It's been other things at other times. Why is that the place where American politics tends to project its hopes and anxieties?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, because it was looming in the popular imagination, kind of the only peer of the United States for a long time during the Cold War. It was seen as this sort of the other side of the mirror. Nearly a century ago, a large part of the American, but also European left was in thrall of studying Russia because it was imagined as this land of equality and feminism and development and flourishing of the arts and the sciences, when in reality it was a brutal, murderous society killing millions of its own citizens, where famines were widespread and where pretty much everyone was a slave to the state. And now we have Putin's Russia being idolized by the other side of the political spectrum and for other reasons. But again, I mean, the Russia they imagine is very far removed from the actual Russia that exists.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And you say that nowadays the messaging is segmented for one audience, Ukrainians are portrayed as Nazis, for another, as Trojan horses for woke values and far left ideology. And those things are a bit contradictory. But we do live in a time where plenty of people are capable of believing both those things at once.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

So, yes, first of all, this was always the way Russian propaganda works. Their idea was that our messages don't have to be cogent. The main goal is not necessarily to convince someone that your message is true, it's to convince someone that the truth doesn't exist, to sow doubt in reality.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You wrote that Russia's war against Ukraine is fundamentally a struggle over historical memory. So how does this fight over historical memory influence the way that the Russian army is conducting this war?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, let's start with the fact that Ukrainian history is really not known, because until recently, history of Ukraine was written by the butchers of Ukraine.

[Brooke Gladstone]

By the butchers of Ukraine, Yes.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Ukraine underwent a man made famine, the Holodomor in the 1930s that killed at least 4 million people. The world didn't really know about it, in part because some in the west were complicit with it. A man who occupies a very important place in Ukrainian History books is Walter Duranty, the correspondent of the New York Times in Moscow, who won a Pulitzer Prize for writing articles that said Ukrainian peasants are well fed and happy and there is no famine as people literally committing acts of cannibalism in Ukrainian villages. From the 1930s, 1950s, Ukraine was literally the deadliest place on earth in a country that had fewer than 30 million people at the end of the 1920s, around 15 million people were killed between the famine, the Holocaust, the war and the insurgency that followed the war. So all of us and all the people who were born in Ukraine were told by their grandparents, great grandparents, about what happened, these hidden secret histories that were not allowed to be told in public until the end of the Soviet Union and that only emerged later in an independent Ukraine. And this is a history that Russia not just denies, but tries to destroy. One of the first things that happen when Russian troops enter a Ukrainian town, they just come in and destroy the monuments to the victims of the Odom or the famine of the 1930s, because they say, well, it didn't really exist. And so Ukrainians are fighting for never again. And the Russians are saying, well, it never happened. Then they built monuments to the people who created this famine and to the people who perpetrated further atrocities. People don't understand. Lots of people in the west are saying, well, why don't you make peace? You lost so many people in Ukraine, hundreds of thousands of young men and women in this fight. And the Ukrainian response right now by the society is that, well, you would love peace, peace is great. But we know that if we surrender, they will be killing many more people. Because this is what they have done in the past. And this is what they say very openly, people like Dugin, but also official and Russian media, they will do again their plans for a genocidal extermination of Ukrainians as Ukrainians are out in the open, physically eliminating Ukrainian intellectuals and re educating the rest.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What is happening to the artists and intellectuals in Ukraine right now?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

There was a Ukrainian children's writer named Volodymyrvakulenko, who was pretty famous in Ukraine, who was living in a village that was occupied by the Russians in the very beginning of the war. And as he was living in this village and watching how the Russian power was being exercised, he started writing a diary, a secret diary that he hid in his card. But one day he was picked up by the Russian forces at the checkpoint outside his house. And then he was found executed, executed by the Russians. Several months later, the Ukrainian army liberates this village, and a Ukrainian novelist named Viktor Merina finds out that Volodymyr Bakurenko was writing this diary. So she digs in the garden, finds the diary all soggy but still legible, and she starts writing a book of her own about all the Ukrainian writers that had been killed by the Russians over the years, since the execution of the entire Ukrainian intellectual class in the 1930s, up to this book by the writer executed by the Russians just now. And so Viktoria herself didn't finish the book because she was killed by a Russian missile strike in the city of Kramatorsk. So you have this cycle of physical elimination of Ukrainian voices, which is why the world doesn't know much about Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian history, because it's a war in which Russia is trying to tell Ukraine, you do not have a history, you do not have a culture. You have no right to have your own culture. And just speaking Ukrainian, just writing in Ukrainian, is already a crime against the Russian state.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You wrote a book called Our Enemies Will Vanish about your experience covering Russia's war in Ukraine after covering other conflicts in the Middle East. You grew up in Kyiv. You were back in Kyiv in February 2022, passing by the landmarks of your youth, when Russia launched the rockets into the city and started the war. From where you stand three years into the conflict, what do you think of the coverage? What do you think is missing?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

This is not just some sort of geopolitical game of risk. We have to focus on the. On the individuals, on the people. People who have the same aspirations, the same desire to be happy, to fall in love, to see their grandchildren grow up, to have a career, to see the world that everyone else has.

[Brooke Gladstone]

How much of a toll has this taken on you?

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Well, you know, it's not easy. You know, I've been covering wars for a very long time, but if it's a war in someone else's country, you can go on holiday and check out and not necessarily think about it all the time here. You can't.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yaroslav, thank you very much.

[Yaroslav Trofimov]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yaroslav Trofimov is the chief foreign affairs correspondent for the Wall Street Journal. Journal.

[Michael Loewinger]

That's it for this week's show on the media is produced by Molly Rosen, Rebecca Clark Callender, Candice Wong and Katerina Barton.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Our technical director is Jennifer Munson, with engineering help from Jared Paul. This week, we bid farewell to Brendan Dalton. Thanks for everything, Brendan. And we also say goodbye to Katharina Barton. You were invited. Eloise Blondio is our senior producer and our executive producer is Katya Rogers. On the Media is a production of WNYC Studios. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Michael Loewinger]

And I'm Michael Olinger.