Once We Had Some Not-So-Horrible Bosses with Alexi Hawley | Episode 8

Summary

Once We Were Spacemen – Episode 8

"Once We Had Some Not-So-Horrible Bosses with Alexi Hawley"

Podcast Hosts: Nathan Fillion & Alan Tudyk
Guest: Alexi Hawley (Showrunner, Writer, Producer, Director)
Release Date: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nathan Fillion and Alan Tudyk sit down with Alexi Hawley—a veteran showrunner, writer, and executive producer known for shows like "The Rookie" and "Castle." The episode dives deep into the craft, chaos, and business realities of showrunning in today’s TV landscape. With warm camaraderie and genuine admiration, Nathan and Alan tease out Alexi’s journey: from a creative New York upbringing through mishaps and milestones in Hollywood, culminating in the unique community built on "The Rookie." Along the way, they explore what makes a great boss in the entertainment biz, how TV is adapting to digital generations, and how resilience and integrity drive lasting success.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Showrunning: Art Meets Finance

• Dual Responsibilities: Alexi describes showrunning as “one of the true left brain, right brain jobs” (08:52), balancing creative vision with rigorous budget and management tasks.
• Training Ground: No standardized path; most learn by rising through the writers’ room hierarchy and hands-on set experience (10:23).
• Bridging Worlds: Nathan notes Alexi has “a foot in both worlds,” bridging artistry and business—“He’s a pimp and a sex worker. He’s pimping himself out” jokes Alan (05:34).

2. Alexi’s Path: From Creative Roots to Showrunning

• Family Influence: Alexi’s mother was a writer (including children’s books like "A Child’s Guide to Freud" and “How to Turn Lemons Into Money”)—early exposure to creativity and curiosity (11:33).
• Drumming & Day Jobs: Played in a band, met his wife through music, and started writing at a bored day job in a law firm (13:35).
• Breakthroughs & Hustle: Gained representation via stage readings (with Bill Macy, Juliana Margulies, etc.) and had to hustle out of necessity with four kids (14:35).
• TV Entry: Entered TV via "The Unusuals" and then joined "Castle" for three seasons, with "The Rookie" as his first solo showrunning gig (16:52).
• Resiliency: Navigated union strikes, show cancellations, and financial pressures (16:04).

3. Building and Maintaining a Great Team

• Philosophy: Alexi intentionally “collects people along the way” and values creating a workspace where “the business is hard enough, my job is to create a space where it’s easy” (17:29).
• Opportunity & Luck: Both Nathan and Alexi recognize so much career advancement comes down to timing and what you do with the breaks you get (19:35).
• Learning on the Job: Alexi admits early mistakes—season one was “a clusterfuck in several different ways” due to inexperience but learned on the fly (19:51).
• Showrunning Challenges: Balancing episodes with varying budgets, such as justifying overseas shoots (“I didn’t ask for any money—I’ll cover it”) and learning the production ropes by trial and error (21:45).

4. The Rookie’s Unusual Success & Cultural Resonance

• Multi-Generational Appeal: "The Rookie" is watched by everyone from kids to seniors; demographics include audiences too young to even be measured (27:32).
• TikTok Effect: The show’s “digestible,” frequently TikTok-ready segments have brought in a younger audience. “We do have sometimes teasers or one-scene stories that are funny or tell a complete [story] within a minute... Very digestible for TikTok. Like literally as if we designed it for TikTok, which we didn’t” (28:50).
• Streaming Impact: The series placed top 10 in streaming charts, despite fewer episodes than competitors (28:29).
• Show as Comfort Food: “We are one of those shows that have become comfort food for what I call the anxiety generation,” Alexi says, noting present-day uncertainties make these kinds of shows deeply resonant (29:50).

5. Responsibility & Community in Hard Times

• Supporting Cast & Crew: Both Nathan and Alexi helped create a Rookie Relief Fund during COVID and the strikes, providing financial support to team members in need (35:59).
• Leadership Philosophy: “Look, it’s the right thing to do... For us to be in a position, enough of a successful position that we can [help]…” (36:42).
• Changing Economics: Alexi discusses how TV economics have changed, with fewer “overall deals” for writers and tightening pay scales even at the showrunner level (37:01).

6. The Realities of TV Careers: Growth, Luck, Typecasting

• Typecasting & Opportunity: Careers are shaped by opportunity more than planning—he jokes, “your career is whatever job you got offered” (24:31).
• Transition to Directing: Alexi started directing not from a burning desire, but as a natural outgrowth of his visual writing style (25:01).
• The Rookie’s Origin Story: Nathan’s casting was part of the initial pitch, making it a rare process where the show was sold directly to series without a pilot (44:53).

7. The Strains and Rewards of the Job

• Maintaining Quality: Alexi is proud that “I don’t think we’ve done a single episode that I don’t think is great...” (34:13).
• Community Impact: Nathan and Alexi reflect on the personal stories from fans—families connecting over the show, viewers experiencing comfort in tough times (31:52).
• Work-Life Balance: Despite juggling multiple shows, Alexi keeps up drumming (with his kid) and loves softball as ways to decompress (38:54).

8. What Makes a “Not-So-Horrible Boss”?

• Both Nathan and Alan reflect on how excellent leadership involves not just artistic instincts, but the courage and care to support a sprawling team—Alexi being a prime example (49:17, 56:44).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Showrunning Duality:
  “I describe it as one of the true left brain, right brain jobs... You're both head of the entire creative entity of the show, but also running budgets, 300 people... Some episodes are too big, some you have to make smaller... You learn by doing.”
  —Alexi Hawley (08:52)

• On Leadership:
  “Because you are honest, you have to make cool decisions because you're not going to lie about anything. So you keep everything up front, which is something I admire.”
  —Nathan Fillion (16:58)

• On Collecting Talent:
  “When I find people who are really good, who I get along with, and who I think are just really good at their jobs, I try and keep them around... But the problem is, when people are really good at their jobs, they're often working.”
  —Alexi Hawley (19:02)

• On the Show’s Youth Appeal:
  “Our show is set up really well for the TikTok generation... [We have] one-scene stories that are funny or tell a complete [story] within a minute... Very digestible for TikTok, like literally as if we designed it for TikTok, which we didn’t.”
  —Alexi Hawley (28:50)

• On Building Community:
  “What you did... was basically saying ‘we're not going to let you or your families suffer.’... And the loyalty that you’ve garnered with that, I just, I applaud you, my friend.”
  —Nathan Fillion (36:15)

• On the Hardest Episodes:
  “I was told coming up there was actually sort of math involved... great episodes, good episodes, and a few that are fine, and then a few that you’re like, 'oh, fuck, how did that happen?' We’ve never had that on this show.”
  —Alexi Hawley (34:13)

• On Industry Uncertainty:
  “Your career is whatever job you got offered... The smallest number of people hit a grand slam out of the gate... for most of us, you go for five auditions and one person says yes.”
  —Nathan Fillion (24:31)

• On Bosses & Mentors:
  “I'm saying it right now. It's Alexi Hawley. This guy has dramatically improved the quality of my life.”
  —Nathan Fillion (56:44)

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Important Timestamps

• Comic Con / "Resident Alien" Cancellation (02:32)
• Role of the Showrunner (08:52)
• Alexi’s Family & Creative Upbringing (11:33)
• Breaking into TV (16:01)
• Collecting Collaborators/Team Ethos (19:02, 19:35)
• Lessons from Showrunning "The Rookie" (19:51)
• Managing Budgets–Taking the Show to Prague (21:45)
• The TikTok Generation & Streaming Success (28:50)
• Fan Stories & Show’s Comfort Value (31:52)
• Handling COVID and Strikes/Rookie Relief Fund (35:59)
• Economics of TV & Shrinking Opportunities (37:01)
• Balancing TV, Family, and Drums (38:54)
• Origins of "The Rookie"—Selling Direct to Series (44:53)
• Best Bosses Discussion/Frank Oz Anecdote (52:31, 53:46)
• Nathan Proclaims Alexi as Best Boss (56:44)

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Tone & Style

This episode is marked by humor, candor, warmth, and a shared affection between all three participants. Nathan and Alan keep things light and irreverent (Alan's running jokes about hats, showrunning as “being beaten to death by your dream”), but the conversation never shies away from the real demands of TV production, maintaining empathy and enthusiasm throughout.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

You’ll walk away from this episode with a deep appreciation for the unseen labor behind your favorite TV dramas, the fierce loyalty and community built by a great leader like Alexi Hawley, and a few genuinely funny stories about the backstage chaos of making hit TV. The episode is both a love letter to the creative process and a lesson in leadership, resilience, and collaboration—on set and beyond.

Transcript

[Alexi Hawley]

When I find people who are really good, who I get along with, and who I think are just really good at their jobs, I try and keep them around. The problem is that when people are really good at their jobs, they're often working. And so it's a lot about timing when they're available. But you do the same thing. I mean, you know, you. You have a network of people that you've collected along the way who, you know, it's been a joy for me to sort of pull them into our universe. Right. You know, all the firefly people and. And the castle people, but also, you know, actors that you've worked with on multitudes of things. Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

And we talked about this, too, because so much of it is luck, so much of it is timing. But then what do you do with that opportunity once you land it? Do you kick back and say, oh, good, I'm good now, or do you say, all right, I'm going to make this the best it can possibly be?

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah. And look, it's a. It's a lot of work.

[Alan Tudyk]

Once we were spacemen. I tend to play weird people, usually aliens and robots and things that don't have romance.

[Nathan Fillion]

I once didn't get a job where they were looking for a Nathan Fillion type. Once we were spacemen.

[Alan Tudyk]

Once we were spacemen.

[Nathan Fillion]

Alan Tudyk.

[Alan Tudyk]

Nathan Fillion. How are you?

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm great. I'm. I am. I am eagerly awaiting your. Your big introduction.

[Alan Tudyk]

All right. Once we were spacemen. It was a time we were in space.

[Alexi Hawley]

We were men.

[Alan Tudyk]

It was a brief and exciting time. But now it is not once it is now, but we'll always be spaceman.

[Nathan Fillion]

That sounded great. I was a little concerned. I thought you were gonna have. You're having a bit of a conniption on that last bit.

[Alan Tudyk]

I just almost went into a fit. I got right at the edge of it and pulled back.

[Nathan Fillion]

Pulled back from the fit.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yep.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yep.

[Nathan Fillion]

Alan, at this point of recording our podcasts, I think we started recording these almost a year ago.

[Alan Tudyk]

Really?

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

It's been almost a year. Yeah.

[Alexi Hawley]

Holy.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, that's right. That's right. I was in Vancouver.

[Nathan Fillion]

But at this point of our recording them, some of our. Our episodes have actually hit the air waves. So here we are at a podcast. This was actually recorded, so I'm. We're doing a little intro to our podcast. This was actually recorded during the last Comic Con.

[Alan Tudyk]

I was so there, and I was so ready to do this podcast. And then you got called away. Yeah. The news hit that resident alien was Canceled. It was no longer going to be. My residency had been cut short, my hospital was closing, and my home planet was calling me back, if you know what I'm saying, Saying we were canceled. When that news hit, suddenly, a Comic Con that had a schedule that was accommodating of doing this, it blew up because everybody wanted to talk to us about, how does it feel? It was a very strange goodbye tour, a press goodbye tour, which I don't know that's ever been done before. You don't get to do those. You just. You just get cut off during the off season, and you sort of send out a tweet and all right, that's it.

[Nathan Fillion]

Usually the cancellation process is a lot less ceremonious.

[Alan Tudyk]

You're saying, yes, it's just like a flush. You know, you don't sing, you don't salute it before it goes down. You just let it go. And that's. We were getting a full salute and a song, man, it was like we were in a hospital bed and everyone was filtering through going, I'm so. I loved you when you were alive. I forgive you for all that crappy stuff you did. I love you. And then they'd leave, and the next person would come in. I knew you were gonna die like this, you dog. And then that person would leave and we'd say, who was that?

[Nathan Fillion]

So as a result of your being called away at the last minute, you weren't able to be present for. When I was actually doing a podcast with Alexi Holly, who is the head writer, showrunner, executive producer of a little show that you came in, was a part of that I like to spend a lot of time on. Called the Rookie.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yes. He was the director for the last episode that we did.

[Nathan Fillion]

That's right.

[Alan Tudyk]

He was my director.

[Nathan Fillion]

He wears a lot of hats.

[Alan Tudyk]

And it's weird because he's short and you can't really get a good sense of his height because of all the hats.

[Nathan Fillion]

A lot of hats.

[Alan Tudyk]

You're like, where does Alexi end and where do the hats begin?

[Alexi Hawley]

It's.

[Alan Tudyk]

I'm uncertain still.

[Nathan Fillion]

We may never know. So you know Alexi a little bit. It is my hope, Alan, that by the time you listen to this podcast, that you might know Alexi a little better.

[Alan Tudyk]

I think that everybody's going to get to know him a lot better because he's going to be chatting with you. You guys have a shorthand, you do a lot of work together. You know each other probably better than most on the show because you're business.

[Nathan Fillion]

Partners and we go back, we go back to. He was a writer on Castle and then came back to run Castle for us as well. So I have a lot of history with Alexei. I really respect and admire the way he runs a business. This is our first podcast where we're talking to somebody who's not an actor. This is our first non actor podcast interview. I think we're both very much aware of how in our industry it's about how art meets finance and usually it's people on one side or the other. But Alexei's job, he has to bridge that gap. He's in, he's got a foot in both worlds.

[Alan Tudyk]

So he's like, he's a pimp and a sex worker. He's pimping himself out. That is a special breed you don't necessarily want to run into. You got to know how to deal with people like that.

[Nathan Fillion]

That is one way of looking at it for sure. I don't know that it would, that's how I would describe it, but that is certainly a way.

[Alan Tudyk]

If I had been there that day, I would have brought that up to him. I wish I had been there. I'm looking forward, as I, I'm sure everyone else here to hearing a little bit about how you guys met, what it takes to make. Well, I guess he could probably talk about Castle as well, but the rookie and what is it, what does it take to be a showrunner, a director, all of that stuff. Who is he? Who is this guy?

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, we kept it pretty much. We, we, we talked about our, like how, how he began. Listen, I don't want to go into it. You're going to. So let's you and I meet again after this podcast and then we'll get some hard hitting questions out of you about how you think it went. Alexi, hey, thanks for doing this.

[Alexi Hawley]

Happy to do it.

[Nathan Fillion]

So right now we are, we are presently, you and I, enjoying ComicCon.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes, we. I just got here a few hours ago. You've been here a few days. But our panel rookie is tomorrow.

[Nathan Fillion]

A rookie panel tomorrow, which we have lovely plans for. We can talk all about it because there's no spoilers. This isn't going to come out at all. But we have great plans for this.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes, we do. Very exciting. A little fun music interrupt us and a great sizzle reel.

[Nathan Fillion]

I always think these panels, I think there's people out there who have questions. You know, certainly there's some information we can give out that could be interesting, perhaps to somebody. But it always grinds my gears when I see panels and they're not entertaining. Yes. Thank you for taking the onus upon yourself to make sure it's entertaining.

[Alexi Hawley]

Oh, yeah, it helps us. It also helps make it an interesting panel. But, yeah, the fans are there to see fun. They want Charming. They want fun. They want Daddy Cop. They want.

[Nathan Fillion]

They've been waiting in line. They're out there in the sun. They're waiting all year for Comic Con and they're going to come into a room and it's just dies in the room. You don't want that. Okay.

[Alexi Hawley]

Well, it's tough. I mean, it's a 2,000 seat. I mean, maybe hall. I mean, these places are a norm. They're big ones. We got a big. I think Xander said it was a couple thousand seats, but, like, it's big, but yeah. So how do you establish any intimacy? You have to do it by sort of being big, right?

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah. And everybody. It's a stacked deck, too. Everybody there is pretty much going to be a fan, so.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

It's always such a welcome, such a. A warm room.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes, very much so.

[Nathan Fillion]

You always feel well received?

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes. Okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

People ask me all the time, hey, I want to become an actor. What do I. There's no one way that if you say, if you want to be an actor, do this and you'll be an actor at the end of it. You are a writer, showrunner, executive producer, director. Now. Congratulations.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

How does one slip into your career?

[Alexi Hawley]

Well, as you said, there is no one way. Right. I mean, if it was. If you were getting into business, banking, widgets, I could tell you how to go do that. But to be a writer is a different muscle than to be a director or an actor or any. And showrunning is its own conversation a little bit.

[Nathan Fillion]

But, you know, it's a totally different job than writer.

[Alexi Hawley]

It is. I describe it as one of the true left brain, right brain jobs. Like, because you need to be. You're both head of the entire creative entity of the show. From obviously selling the idea and writing the scripts, but also running writers rooms and coming up with story and then prep and production, overseeing that, then post editing, sound mixes, all that.

[Nathan Fillion]

You're doing budgets.

[Alexi Hawley]

And that's the left brain side. That's all the management. And, you know, you have 300 people who work on the show that are, you know, under your supervision and budgets. And, you know, some episodes are too big, some episodes you have to make smaller to pay for those. You lose a location the night before. What do you do? Covid was a big thing for us, as it was with many people, like, you know, the actor got sick, but we only have the location for one day tomorrow, so what do we do? And all that kind of stuff. So yeah, so that's a whole thing. And I think you actually part of the mistake that happened when wasn't really on purpose, but when streaming blew up how much TV there was. And so you had first time showrunners all over the place who really, some of them were fairly new to television. They'd maybe done a show or they sold something and they had no training. Right. They didn't know how to. They didn't even know what the job was before they were thrown in the deep end. And it's not an easy job to sort of learn as you go. You sort of need to know how TV works before you can.

[Nathan Fillion]

Is there no training program for showrunning?

[Alexi Hawley]

The training program really is being a staff writer on a show in which you can go to set, you learn how to break story, you learn how to write and what the rewrites entail. You're watching through prep. Why things, certain things were much more expensive than you thought they were going to be when you wrote them. So you have to make them smaller. And then you go to set and you watch it get made. And then you end up in editing. Like all that is the building blocks of understanding how a TV show is made.

[Nathan Fillion]

Okay, let's go timeline.

[Alexi Hawley]

Sure.

[Nathan Fillion]

You're a kid. When does it occur to you, I'm going to try writing? I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to write.

[Alexi Hawley]

I mean, the honest truth is I did not. I mean, I was always creative. I grew up in a very creative household. My mom was a writer and a painter and she, she was nonfict fiction. Well, she did some kids books. Okay. She was all over the place in a way that I identify with as a writer who's done everything from comedy to horror to action to whatever. One of her first things she wrote was A Child's Guide to Freud, which it was a very tongue in cheek but very smart book on terminology from Freudian psychology put into a family situation. So like when daddy does this, it's sublimation. When you know, would you read her.

[Nathan Fillion]

Books when she wrote them?

[Alexi Hawley]

Those books I think predated or were very early in my life. But she also did how to Turn Lemons into Money, which was a child's guide to economics. And then how to turn up into down into up, which was a kid's book on inflation. They're all so smart. Because they really do boil it down to, like, Lucy's got a lemonade stand and Johnny is her employee and all that stuff. Super smart. But she also wrote one of the first books on incest back in the 70s. And she never went to college. She was not a professional. She wasn't a psychologist. She just was. She was interested in stuff. And so. And so she also wrote books on kids in the mental health system and kids in foster care. And then my dad was an actor up until my brother and I were born, when he realized that a. It's hard. I mean, you know, I mean, maybe you don't know, actually. Cause you've been doing pretty well for the last few years. But, like, a lot of acting is waiting for the phone to ring. You got an audition. Did you get the part? So I think by the time he was married, with two twin boys being born, he realized that that was not a life for somebody who needed to take care of his family. And also, maybe he was sick of it. I don't know. We didn't really talk about that. But I grew up in a very creative household. But high school, coming out of college, I was playing drums, trying to be a rock star. That's in a band in New York with my brother. That's right. And then met my wife in a band. And so it was only when I was, like, sitting in front of a computer at a day job at a law firm where I was a legal assistant. I just started writing because I was bored. And I gravitated towards features, towards movie scripts, and sort of taught myself how to write. And the way I taught, I never took a class, but what I did was I would watch movies and I would take notes, which I never looked at again, but I'd take notes. I'd be like, okay, at two minutes, this happens. At eight minutes, this happens. At 15 minutes, this happens. And it's sort of trying to internalize structure. Because to me, structure is the thing. If you learn structure as a writer, you'll work forever. Because you really need to understand how something works, right? And you have to know how it works even to break the rules, right? Memento is the most structured thing you'll ever see. It has to be, because it's backwards, right? So when Picasso was an amazing representational artist, he had to be before he started to take it all apart and do Cubism and all that kind of stuff. So to me, that was what I was trying to get into. My DNA was like, how it works where you need A twist in an action movie or a horror movie because there are different places and that kind of stuff. And then ultimately I never did that with television. But by the time I got to tv, six or seven years into my career, because I started out doing movies, I think I'd watched enough television growing up that I sort of had a sense and then it was just about translating the sort of feature model into television. But yeah, so I came out of college, I got married, I had a day job, I was playing drums. And I started writing and ultimately got an agent, got a manager, but it wasn't easy and nobody does it the same way. And so I ended up getting an agent through having done stage readings with a filmmaker who really liked a script I'd written. And one of the actors was William H. Macy and who this guy was friends with. And basically we did a stage reading at the Tiffany Theater in la, which is no longer. It was Bill Macy, Juliana Margulies, Felicity Huffman, Giancarlo Esposito. I mean, these are the people on their own nickel, like did the thing. Couldn't get an agent to even come to the reading. So which was crazy. So anyway, you know, basically I'm like, can, can Bill Macy send some. Get somebody from his agency to come. Which he did. And the guy ultimately hip pocketed me, which means I wasn't an official client, but he looked out for stuff for me. And so, so I started to work a little bit, but I had kids. Like, I didn't, I couldn't. I've never been in the business without having kids, which means nothing was optional. Like I needed to succeed, I needed to work. It made me a hustler, all that kind of stuff. So like I had several things that I had done, including I did a production writ on a movie called Swim Fan. I don't remember that. Fatal Attraction in high school.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh yes.

[Alexi Hawley]

But like I couldn't even go to set because I still had a day job because I don't pay that great. I couldn't quit my job. So it wasn't until I got three writing assignments back to back to back that we moved to LA. And that was 2003, I think.

[Nathan Fillion]

Where were you doing? You were in New York?

[Alexi Hawley]

I was in New York, yeah. I was in New York.

[Nathan Fillion]

So somebody believes in you. Somebody sees what you're doing and says, ah, I'm gonna keep an eye on this kid. You get some opportunities, they start to roll. When does the showrunning come in?

[Alexi Hawley]

So that happened.

[Nathan Fillion]

Was that the next step?

[Alexi Hawley]

No, no, I actually, I dipped my toe into television. I sold a pilot which I wrote, I think for the cw, which didn't get made. And then the writer strike happened. 2007, 2008. Yes. Coming out of that, super in debt, like, and I had two kids and I mean it was bad, like kind of debt. And ultimately my brother Noah had his first television show, Get Greenlit, which was the Unusuals on abc. So I went to New York. Cause he wanted to write it and shoot it in New York. And so at that point we had just had our fourth. So I left my wife as a single mother of four and went to New York for six months basically to work on that show. And so that was my sort of first foray into tv. But after that I ended up on Castle with you?

[Nathan Fillion]

That's right.

[Alexi Hawley]

For three seasons. But the Rookie was really my first sort of solo showrunning experience.

[Nathan Fillion]

So that actually kind of amazes me. Something I learned about you when we worked together on Castle was you're honest and you have integrity. I feel like because you are honest, you have to make cool decisions because you're not going to lie about anything. So you keep everything up front, which is something I very much admire about you. You run a tight ship. And what I really enjoy about you is you are successful, but not at the cost of any one in particular.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, look, I mean, Hollywood is hard, right? This business that we're in is bad. You know, I mean, there's a lot of money made and there's a lot of good stuff that gets made. But there's a lot of cruelty and, and, and coldness. And you hear no 90 something percent of the time as a writer and as an actor. Right. Like it's just, you know, no is the default. It's very hard to get a yes. Saying yes means putting yourself out there, you know, and taking a risk and stuff like that. So I think for me, my feeling has always been like the business is hard enough. My job is to create a space where, where it's easy, which doesn't mean it's an easy job. But I also very firmly believe that if I do my job, which sometimes could mean going into the office at 4:30 in the morning and staying till whatever. But if I do my job, then the show's going to run because, you know, I'm not passing the buck. And then the other thing I do is I hire people who are really good at their jobs and I'm the other thing. Can you take that off? My Plate. Oh, thank God. Thank you so much.

[Nathan Fillion]

How do you find the Marco blacks, the bill rose, the. How do you. How do you entice them to say, this is where you need to be? How do you get those people? How do you keep them close?

[Alexi Hawley]

Some people came to me fresh. Marco was not somebody I'd worked with before, who's our line producer, but he had come highly recommended to me. And so that ended up being quite a great marriage.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah.

[Alexi Hawley]

Because showrunner and line producer work hand in hand because, you know, a lot of budget, a lot of production issues, all that kind of stuff. But I also sort of try and collect people along the way. Terrence, who I work with on Castle, came over to Rookie when I started it.

[Nathan Fillion]

You collected me on the way.

[Alexi Hawley]

I collected you on the way. Brim Malone. I collected on the following. When I find people who are really good, who I get along with, and who I think are just really good at their jobs, I try and keep them around. The problem is that when people are really good at their jobs, they're often working. And so it's a lot about timing when they're available. But you do the same thing. I mean, you have a network of people that you've collected along the way who. It's been a joy for me to sort of pull them into our universe. Right. All the Firefly people and the Castle people, but also actors that you've worked with on multitudes of things. Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

And we talked about this, too, because so much of it is lucky. So much of it is timing. But then what do you do with that opportunity once you land it? Do you kick back and say, oh, good, I'm good now. Or do you say, all right, I'm gonna make this the best it can possibly be?

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah. And look, it's a. It's a lot of work. It's a ton of work. And first seasons are really hard. Our first season was a bit of a clusterfuck in several different ways. And some of it was from me not having showrunner first year show before. I mean, following was season three. Castle was season eight. So, you know, I made some mistakes. And so we ended up way over budget in the first three or four episodes. And then I sort of learned how to make the show. Cause every show's different, Right. What works on Castle doesn't necessarily work on the Rookie. Right. You know, Castle. We were only out a couple of days an episode, and I think it was less days of shooting. Rookie were out four to five days an episode, you know. Cause we're out driving around in the patrol cars and all that kind of stuff. And so there are things that are expensive that you don't realize are expensive. Parking a whole crew in LA can be like tens of thousands of dollars just to park. But yeah, so there was stuff that I just didn't know, that I didn't know until we got into season one and really had to learn how the show worked and how to write. And by this point, the good news is, like, we're really good at making the show at different price points, which like Prague. I pitched going to Prague for our season eight premiere, which is not a thing. Like people shows, network television shows don't do that. I mean, every once in a while, like, you'll get a giant hit show right out of the like Modern Family. I think they went to Hawaii once. But for the most part, shows don't do that. You could definitely see people go, like, that's not normal. What's that going to cost? All that kind of stuff. But I think at the end of the day, because I didn't ask for any money, I'm like, we'll cover it. Like, I don't need extra money to go to Prague. And we're going to go a million dollars over on that first episode. But I know how to win it back, you know, over the course of 18 episod, the point where we'll end up under budget or on budget by the end of the season. And I now have a track record where they were like, okay, and so we got to go to Prague, which we did.

[Nathan Fillion]

You learn that on the following. How to do that balancing act?

[Alexi Hawley]

No, not as much. I mean, look, Rookie's a bit of a unicorn. The patrol show aspect of what we do, which is what I love about it, is that anytime you guys get out of the shop, out of the patrol car, anything can happen. Right. It's not a case of the week where like Castle, body drop and teaser catch the guy at the end, accuse everybody of murder that we ever talk to. Which is. Was always funny to me. But yeah. But for. For Rookie, like, anything can happen. And so we have all these different kinds of episodes we can do. And so we can do the big stunty event episodes like going to Prague, but we can also do much smaller episodes that are like the one we did last season with Harper in the hospital where James had been shot and you were trying to track down was responsible, but you couldn't tell her that you were the one who saw James kissing that woman. That episode came in Hugely under budget because we designed something that was a lot more standing sets and a lot more stuff like that. So at this point I know enough. But that sort of range doesn't exist on most shows. Like on the following, you're chasing guys every week. You got to do that.

[Nathan Fillion]

Would you consider yourself a new showrunner? You've been doing a decade more. A decade now.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah, at this point, no. Partly because I also, you know, at one point was kind of running three shows at the same time. Yes, I mean I did co run Feds with Terrence, but the recruit I ran by myself as well. And so yes, at one point all three were going at the same time. So yeah, that's a little bit into the deep end. So no, I don't consider myself new anymore.

[Nathan Fillion]

You were working three shows at once and looking at a fourth?

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes, yes. I mean, yes, I mean I did that year. I did 52 episodes of television. It's a lot. It's a lot. And you know, you get tired. But I love it. And that's the thing. It's like I, I get that same sense from you, you know, on set, like.

[Nathan Fillion]

But I've got a great job. Your job is hard.

[Alexi Hawley]

I love my job. Yes, it's hard. And look, you know, at this point you don't necessarily have to navigate the operational challenges that I do. But I mean, you know, acting is not easy. I do it occasionally on the show and it's, it is its own thing. But I love what I do. I've been trying to do that. I mean, you talk about how do you get there? Like, what was your journey? And for me, it was always getting to a place where I felt like I was in control of my destiny. It's funny, people do ask you about your career. I forget if we've ever talked about this, but you're like, your career is whatever job you got offered, like, that's, yes, we did it is the smallest number of people who hit a grand slam out of the gate. You know, they write the 100 million dollar movie that makes a fortune and they, they can choose their path or the actor comes out, you know, get.

[Nathan Fillion]

To pick what they do next.

[Alexi Hawley]

Most of us, like you go for five auditions and one person says yes. That's the thing. I mean, I ended up in procedural television because I did the unusuals, which got me onto Castle and once, which got me onto the following. And even though I do other, a lot of other stuff, you know, people want to see you as one thing. So that's how that career sort of went the way it went.

[Nathan Fillion]

Then you started directing. Yeah. Had you always wanted to direct? When did that bug bite?

[Alexi Hawley]

I don't think it had been in the front of my head doing it. You know, I do think that even way back on the feature days, like the movies, I was the last writer standing on the Exorcist prequel as well. The Renny Harlan version, not the Pulse Raider version. And so I definitely had experienced the way I saw it and the way I put it down on the script being translated by a director very differently so. And then coming into TV and part of it is the collaborative process of TV and filmmaking, which is it takes all of us. Right. Like I can write something and then you're gonna elevate it. Right. And then the hope is the director elevates it visually or story wise and that, you know, and costumes and casting and. And, you know, props and effects and stunts, like all of them are elevating what you write. But yeah, hope, or you hope. Yeah, some. No, definitely. I've ended up in editing going, you know, the worst part is when you end up editing and you ask, do we have. And the answer is always down, like there. I've done those episodes where you're like, do we have a close up? No. Do we have a shot over there? No. And you're like, it's going to be a challenge. But so, yeah, so I, at some point, because I am a very visual writer, I feel like the scripts serve. You can have a vision that you can read off the page and go, oh, okay, I know what, I know what is supposed to be happening here. But, you know, I grew up doing art and drawing and fine art and stuff like that too. So I do have a visual sense. And so, yeah, at some point I felt like directing was the next logical step.

[Nathan Fillion]

Let's talk about the rookie.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

Congratulations.

[Alexi Hawley]

Thanks, I appreciate that. And back at you, we had a.

[Nathan Fillion]

100Th episode celebration where some lovely reps from ABC came down and said, I'm gonna. Everybody's saying some really nice things. We're having like little toasts and speeches were going on and she gave us some numbers and she said, here's something you guys are doing in season five that's never been done before. And she started talking some demographics that every show goes down in. These demographics in season five, it just, it just doesn't happen. And we went up.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

And then season seven, we went up again.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

You wrote an article recently for Variety. Yeah, yeah, I've been reading a couple articles about your article.

[Alexi Hawley]

Oh, interesting.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, it's a lot of people have been writing about.

[Alexi Hawley]

Oh, interesting collider.

[Nathan Fillion]

Anyway.

[Alexi Hawley]

Oh, okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

Where you basically went over why you think this show is a success. Part of it is the TikTok of it all.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes.

[Nathan Fillion]

Easily digestible pieces that can catch people's attention and draw them into our show, which is starting now with an audience of 10 year olds.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah, no, our. The age range on our show is pretty unicorn. Like. Like, I mean so many people told me over the last two seasons like my 10 year old, my 13 year old, my. Their entire seventh grade class is obsessed with the rookie. It goes all the way up into, you know, sen. Citizen type territory as well. So you know, they. They can't even measure for below 18. Right. 18 to 49 is the beginning of their measurements. So they don't even know what. It's a little bit of opaque to the network what that number really is. But we know because we just saw streaming charts for the first six months of this year. Yes. Which showed us eight out of ten every show living or dead. Right. Because that streaming chart, anything that's streaming that has existed currently or existed before. We were number eight with I think it was 15.6 billion minutes of viewing. And that was just in the US.

[Nathan Fillion]

And with a quarter of the episodes that other shows on that list had.

[Alexi Hawley]

Correct. We had 120something I think on that list. And the closest one to us was 280. And then you went up to in graze to like 500 something. So yes, with far less episodes. We were up there with the big boys.

[Nathan Fillion]

Is there anybody in. In your real. You're part of the industry that's patting you on the back saying hey man, look at that.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah, look. Everybody's very happy with it, you know, for sure. I do feel a great sense of accomplishment about it because you know, it means that you're resonating with people. I do think that I'm talking a little bit about the article, but I. I think our show is set up really well for the TikTok generation because every episode has so many different flavors. We do have sometimes teasers or one scene stories that are funny or tell us a complete within a minute or something like that. Very digestible for TikTok, like literally as if we designed it for TikTok, which we didn't. But I have been cognizant of it for sure. But I do think that's also helped us is that you know, and I also talk to people who are like, who don't actually watch the show, but have seen a ton of the show in two minute bites. Now, do we see any of that money? No, we don't. So that's an issue of itself. But no, I do think that ultimately we are one of those shows that have become comfort food for what I call the anxiety generation, which is the sort of, it's not like a Gen Z thing. It's literally, I think the last almost 20 years since the economic crash under Obama and people coming out of college thought they were going to have jobs and then they didn't. And through the pandemic and obviously what's going on with Trump and politics in this country and all that, there's just an underlying anxiety that exists. And I think shows that have a lot of episodes because that matters, right? Because you, they're comfort food. You put them on, you know, they watch them first run and love them and then they become the thing that they put on in the background while they're doing something. Which doesn't mean they don't know them. They'll quote them complete like they know those episodes. But just spending time with John Nolan and Lucy Chen and, you know, Harper and all these, they become family. I mean, it's what TV's always been since we were kids. Right. Like we would, as you, we were talking earlier, like you'd watch Cheers with your family and, you know, that's the thing. Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

I've often said that when I became an actor, it was because the immediate, it was staged acting. I was up on stage. There's this immediate visceral response. If you do something great or if you do something terrible, you'll know in an instant on television, you don't have that anymore. The reward system is very, very different. And what I found that the reward is for me now is when people say that what you're doing is meaning painful to me in some way. And my absolute favorite is your show was something I watch with my family. We get together. It's, it's something that I watch with my dad. It's the way we connect. I, I watched it with my mother before she passed. It would, she was dying from cancer, but these were the times that she would be without pain and we would be entertained. These are the, the rewards I get now. This is the applause I sense now. But, I mean, we're having a good time. I do love my job. You've really assembled a fantastic community. It takes, you know, it's 42 minutes to watch our program, but it takes eight days of long hours. Right. To go out there and make it right. And those are the hours I. That's how I spend my. That's my life. That's how I spend my life.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

It's time well spent. I really enjoy that time. To know that I forget sometimes that people are watching. To know that people are watching and getting something out of it. That reward.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah. And what's rewarding for me is that at the end of the day, I mean, look, I feel like we're a show that people look forward to watching, which is exciting to me. It's what I strive to do. But it doesn't mean we're light. Right. Like, we do have a lot of comedy stuff, but we've had some series regulars fall by the wayside in tragic ways. We've had serial killers. We've had really dark episodes. And the fact that it's. Those are still family episodes because the world is hard out there and. And you know, and that you still have 10 and 11 and 13 year olds. We don't do anything graphic. We don't tell stories about sexual violence or anything like that because I just don't think that's, for the most part in our wheelhouse to do. But even so, like, we're. We have stakes in our show. Bad things happen. And so I appreciate that we still have the volume of people watching, even though, you know, we're not just a comedy right now.

[Nathan Fillion]

I keep talking about this. Firefly was my favorite job of all time that I had ever had. That set the bar for me until now. Now the rookie is the new bar and it's a long lasting. It's been almost a decade we've been doing this.

[Alexi Hawley]

It's fantastic.

[Nathan Fillion]

It's a golden show. It's the unicorn show. I'm having a great time, but it's not without its challenges. Clearly you've brought our show through. Covid through a strike.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

What are the greatest challenges facing you in making a TV show?

[Alexi Hawley]

I mean, you named a couple of them. You know, obviously I said the first season being a bit of a clusterfuck was one of them, but yeah, it's literally just trying to navigate how to keep the show driving forward and being as good creatively as it has been and as consistent, because I do feel like we're super consistent. I don't think we've done a single episode that I don't think is great, which is, I was told coming up there was actually sort of math involved for. For showrunners or creators about, like in a Typical season, you will have X number of great episodes, X number of good episodes, which usually outnumber the great episodes. And then a few that are fine, and then there are few that you're like. You're like, oh, fuck, we. That. How did that happen? We've never had that on. At least in my mind, we've never had that on the show.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, no, I'm shaking my head. I don't.

[Alexi Hawley]

And so I'm super proud of that. But, yeah, no, there were a lot of obstacles and obstacles to not only keeping the show on the air, but taking care of the cast and the crew that are our family. Right. Because the pandemic, the strike, that's a lot of. As I said, we have somewhere in the 300 people who work on the show top to bottom, and those are people with families. Those are people who have mortgages and stuff like that. And so we're lucky because as a show that traditionally does at this point, I think our seasons are 18, but we've done 22 several seasons. We've also only done 10 the strike year and 14 in the pandemic year. But just how do you navigate keeping the ball driving forward? I mean, with the strike, you know, I was on the phone with the network on the sort of showrunner capacity going. We can be up and running in a month. Like, the second the strike is over, don't wait on us. We'll write scripts like, you know, I need to get people back to work. And so I think we were the. If not the first, I think Swap might have maybe beat us or been right there with us, but we got up as fast as we could because I knew we'd been on strike for ever.

[Nathan Fillion]

Whenever I'm on set, I try to make people feel as comfortable as I can. We had guest stars. I try to make sure they feel welcome, because if they are welcome and they are comfortable, they feel safe, that's when you're going to get the best work out of them. Something that you have done a couple of times, once during COVID once during the strike, was you set up a rookie relief fund. You made sure that if there was someone in financial straits, they could simply send in an email and you would deposit money into their account for them to take care of them.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yes.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah.

[Alexi Hawley]

Don't make it sound like it's just me, though, because you were. Yes, you and I. And, you know, after Mark Gordon, during the strike, yes, we put aside money to take care of our cast and crew, whoever needed it. It made a huge difference to some people.

[Nathan Fillion]

Difference. And like I said, as far as, you know, trying to make people comfortable gives them their best work. What you did, what was basically saying, we're not going to let you or your families suffer. We're going to make sure you guys are okay. Let me tell you, the kind of community you built with that has been phenomenal. And people still talk to me about it.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

And the loyalty.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

That you've garnered with that. I just, I applaud you, my friend.

[Alexi Hawley]

I appreciate that. Again, you were right there at my. You're right there with me. I might have suggested it, but you were. You were right there with me. And look, it's the right thing to do. And, you know, for us to be in a position, enough of a successful position that we can.

[Nathan Fillion]

I agree it's the right thing to do. I just don't know that everyone would do that. I don't know anyone else who has.

[Alexi Hawley]

I, I don't, I don't necessarily either. But that's not to say that I, I, you know, that there aren't people who did. But look, I mean, it's tough because the economic reality of showrunning and TV these days are. It's a. It's a contracting market. There's a whole story to get into. But the way writers and actors are getting paid is it has gotten more challenging for people to get bumps or to get raises. Yes. You know, even accomplished showrunners are now. You know, there aren't a lot of overall deals anymore, which overall basically means that, you know, you make a deal with the studio for usually a couple of years, two or three years, where you get a set salary, where you just get paid that every week, every month, basically. It does mean that you don't get, like, individual script fees or if you do a pilot, you probably won't get paid for that script, but you do get the guarantee of X amount of dollars every month. But those deals are harder to get, which means you end up with these, what they call show for alls, which is like just a show deal where they hire the showrunner. And, you know, a lot of these places have started really lowballing. People like, you know, they had an expectation to make a certain amount of money because it's a lot of work. And even to the point where some places are basically, they've set a number like we pay you. I can't remember what it is, but X amount of dollars a week for post, as if post is not as much work as when the show's in Production So you basically get less money to post, produce the show and take it or leave it. And so the economics of TV have gotten harder for the majority in the same way that they have for America as a whole. Obviously the top 0.1% make a lot and then most people below that don't make anywhere near as much and don't get the same benefits and the same raises and all that.

[Nathan Fillion]

Outside of the show hobbies.

[Alexi Hawley]

I remain a drummer. Hey, I still play. Beckett, my youngest has been learning for a few years. So use that to get a drum kit in the living room. Although what's funny is I had an electronic kit in my office at the house that we were in before this one and now I don't actually have an office at home in the new house. And so my wife did not care for the look of the electronic kit in the L and so twist my arm. I gotta go get a nice drum kit for the living room. So I still play, you know, I love playing softball. We've rookie team won the championship last year. Woohoo. It's one of the few places I can turn my brain off is going either that or working out or stuff like that.

[Nathan Fillion]

But how much time do you have? I don't have.

[Alexi Hawley]

That's the thing, I don't have much.

[Nathan Fillion]

So you're a family man, you're a working man?

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

At 1.3 shows. Looking at number four.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

How many now? Is it now one, but you're looking at two.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah. So where the rookie obviously is season eight. We just, you know, we started shooting episode three today. You know, the spinoff pilot is sort of in process is I guess what I can say about that. There's a script that people are really happy about. We are just sort of focusing on timelines. So that is going on. And then I have a show that I sold to Hulu called the Envoy, which is based.

[Nathan Fillion]

Right.

[Alexi Hawley]

Which is based on Roger Carsons who is the real life now former, the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs. So he's the guy who brought home Brittney Griner from Russia and Evan Gershkovitz from Russia. He brought home over 70Americans during his time in the city. You brought him to set.

[Nathan Fillion]

We met him. What a pleasant man.

[Alexi Hawley]

He is an incredible man. So Adam Siralski, who is somebody I did the recruit was sort of loosely inspired by, had written an article for Vanity Fair about Roger and we optioned that and then set up the show at Hulu. So that is sort of waiting a pickup at this point. To start writing it.

[Nathan Fillion]

It must be easier for you now to have the ear of a network to pitch a show, to get something. At what point did your reputation precede you and people start.

[Alexi Hawley]

It might have existed earlier, but I really started to feel it in the last couple years. Honestly, you know, with Recruit, the success of Recruit and Rookie, I think it's been a bit of a snowball. I've told you. You know, we've talked before about how this town always manages to tell you you're not all that.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, I don't believe.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah, right. So. So I had. And I can tell the story because none of the players involved are in those jobs anymore. But I had come off of co running the following co running Castle, and Castle got canceled. And so I started.

[Nathan Fillion]

Whoa.

[Alexi Hawley]

What?

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, you know, I knew that you are so late.

[Alexi Hawley]

So I had. I had started developing and, you know, and so I came up with this pilot pitch and this was right after. I'm gonna call it the Last of Us. But it's not. What's the. What's the. The Milo Mandy Moore show that was on that was a tearjerker.

[Alan Tudyk]

The show Alexi is thinking of is this is Us.

[Alexi Hawley]

Anyway, so it had come out after that. And so I. I came up with a pilot idea about I. It was a kind of a bucket list show. It's a gu diagnosed and he's got things that he wants to accomplish before. And so. And it was totally a solid show. It was a little bit out of what I'd normally done, but I took it to a producer who had been a former studio head at ABC Studios. And so the way TV works is the studio is who actually makes a deal with you to create a show, and they're the ones who actually pay the bills to make the show, and then they license the show to the network. Right. So for a rookie, it's Lionsgate and now 20th Television for ABC. And so they pay the bills. And then. So basically what ended up happening is I took this pitch in, and if they want to do it, what they'll make is they call it an if come deal, which means if we sell it, this is what we'll pay for you. That way you can't go sell it and then tell them, I want $10 million for the script because you've already prepared, negotiated what they're going to pay you if you sell this. Gotcha. But shorthand, it cost them nothing. And if come cost them $0. Because if you don't sell it, they don't have to Pay you anything. ABC Studios, who we did Castle with, would not give me an ifcom on that. And I just come off being a showroom on Castle. And they were like, yeah, we don't see it, so we're not going to make enough come with you.

[Nathan Fillion]

And you don't think that was about the show? You think that was about you?

[Alexi Hawley]

I don't think it was about me. I think it was just a wake. Not a wake up call, but just a nice quote unquot reminder that I thought coming off of being a fancy showrunner, like, I meant something. But they're like, yeah. But then the irony to our benefit is that I think literally a month later, because I was also working on the rookie pilot, the Pitch, we took it out and we sold it to series. No pilot, just to series to abc, within a month to the network.

[Nathan Fillion]

Okay, now tell folks, because that's a bit of a weird path for a show to get made. So tell folks the origins of the rookie.

[Alexi Hawley]

So, okay, so I had done a couple of pilot scripts with Mark Gordon, you know, famous producer. He produced, well, for tv, Grey's Anatomy, Criminal Minds. But, you know, he started out as a big, big feature director. He produced Saving Private Ryan, which you were in. And so, you know, big, big deal guy. And so I had done a couple of piles with him that didn't end up getting made. But then I got an incoming phone call which is like, okay, it was a bit of a. Come pitch us what this show is, because they said we have the rights to the oldest rookie in the lapd. And look, having been in television for a minute, there are very few fresh ways into a show, and there are zero fresh ways into a cop show. And yet I'm like, I haven't seen that show. So I'm like, I'm doing. Even though I actually had, I think, two other things or three other things that I was working on, I'm like, that one's special. I need that. So I came in and I talked to Bill, the real guy, and, you know, we talked about his origin. And this idea of reinvention really resonated with me. This idea of somebody looking for a second chance who's trying to change their lives, the bravery it takes to start at the bottom. Like, all of that, I thought was a great setup for a character and a show. The only problem was that, you know, his catharsis to becoming that was basically him going, yeah, I think I'll become a cop. So we needed something. So the second I landed on oh, he's going to the bank to put his wedding ring and his divorce papers in his safe deposit box, and the bank gets robbed. I'm like, that was one of those moments that are such a joy where you're like, that that's gonna be great. And literally, I think what I pitched when we took it out, because you were with us when we were pitching it. That's right. I was.

[Nathan Fillion]

That was in those meetings.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah, yeah. Was what we shot. And. And really the origin of the thing. So. Yeah. So, you know, that usually doesn't happen.

[Nathan Fillion]

That you pitch a show that doesn't even have a script yet.

[Alexi Hawley]

Well, no, it does, actually. Most pilots get sold on a pitch, not a script. It's a weird thing about television is that spec scripts, which are scripts that are written basically on. You write them yourself, and then you try and take them out to sell them. Those have been historically big features. Million dollar script sale, $3 million script sale. Gotcha. In TV, because there's such a development culture and then tons of development executives and stuff, which. That number's kind of a little smaller, but they really want to get their fingers in the mix. And so when you bring them a script, it's very weirdly hard to sell a spec TV pilot. So pitching it is the norm. But I obviously called you once, I had been working on it, to go, would you be interested? And I thought you would say no. I thought you were like, I did eight years of Castle, sometimes 24 episodes a season. You know, I got a little money in the bank. I don't want to work that hard, like, again. So I promised you. I'm like, it's going to be an ensemble show. You'll have a life. You'll have weekends, long weekends, all that kind of stuff, which I get that promise. And so you sign on. So it's not normal necessarily, to go around on pitches with the TV star sitting next to you, charming the pants off of everybody. But I think it was a bit of a winning combination, you know, that we walked in with Mark and you and me and a good idea for a show. And so there were several places that really wanted it. And it allowed us to sort of leverage AVC enough to go, well, if you want it that much, then just order it. We won't do a pilot. We're going to go shoot this thing. And that really was great. So, yeah, it was a joy.

[Nathan Fillion]

Well done. Yeah.

[Alexi Hawley]

Yeah. Thanks, Alexei.

[Nathan Fillion]

Thank you very much.

[Alexi Hawley]

Thanks for having me.

[Nathan Fillion]

You did a great job.

[Alexi Hawley]

I felt like I talked a lot, but I Guess that's the point. That was the point.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, that was the point.

[Alan Tudyk]

That was amazing. Brilliant. Thank you, Alexi.

[Nathan Fillion]

Thank you, Alan.

[Alan Tudyk]

If I were there. Oh, and you. Sorry. Thank you, Nathan, for. You were great.

[Nathan Fillion]

I thought you were thanking me. I. I kind of jumped that gratitude. I didn't mean to.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, it was about to bleed over, but I was starting with the guest. And then it's sort of like once the guest leaves and you shut the door, you go, ah, well done. That was a good. You hosted a good party. Why'd you have to bring up politics?

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm gonna confess something, Alan. You not being able to be there last minute. I was. I was a little nervous about. I mean, Alexi's my friend, so that's not gonna be that type of deal. But. But I usually I have you there holding my hand a little bit.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, we gotta talk about that holding hand thing. It's getting weird. Karissa's asking questions. It's just the part. The.

[Nathan Fillion]

It's just.

[Alan Tudyk]

I should think at a certain point.

[Nathan Fillion]

I should let go.

[Alan Tudyk]

I think everybody who just listened to that is going to realize, oh, Nathan's the one who's running this show. Alan's the. I'm the. You know, like Buddy Holly and the crickets. There was the cricket behind the wall, and they're like, leave it in. I'm the cricket behind the wall. You're making the music. I'm the one that.

[Nathan Fillion]

I don't know.

[Alan Tudyk]

I think we just got to go with the cricket.

[Alexi Hawley]

It.

[Nathan Fillion]

I think, if anything, I think this. This could be the. The start of something kind of amazing. I think you should start thinking about. Take you. You take an episode. You. You do a solo one hander. Yeah. You pick. You pick a guest. You call the shots. Oh, you're smiling. You like this idea.

[Alan Tudyk]

Wow. It's like your dad just gave you the keys to the car. Guys. And you're 16. Thanks, dad.

[Nathan Fillion]

Back to Alexi.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

One thing I kind of got out of, and I've. And I've learned from Alexi is, oh, my God, man, how smart you have to be to be a writer, to be able to create. I think you have a hand. You have. You have a foot in that world. But this whole other side of it, the relationships, literally, the budgeting, the things that you have to think about and consider about running a business, it is so out of my wheelhouse. You really have to have a business sense.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yes. And you have to be very like. Like the world can be falling down around your ears. And you have to put on a brave face and. And if anybody looks at you, they'll be like, he's having a good day. Because you truly are a leader of many people. And I've heard showrunning described as this. And I've had different showrunners in my experience say, oh, yeah, that is what it's like. I've heard it described as being beaten to death by your dream, which I've seen that happen where you're. You watch somebody who's an artist, who has a dream, who wrote a thing, and they're trying to make a story of characters they love and they're putting everything into it. And then the budget process, the networks, the big business of it, all the. The market factors, all the crap you don't ever want to pay attention to as an artist are just squeezing your dream, killing off characters you love and your marriage is falling apart and you turn to the bottle. Just things like that can happen often do.

[Nathan Fillion]

What's the attraction? What keeps one going? The sense I get from Alexi is a little more. So that's a guy who really enjoys telling stories.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yes. It doesn't seem to be a pain. It seems like he's enjoying it. He's very smart, though. And I was impressed by what he was saying about his mother. His mother sound like, I'd like to talk to his mother. She sounds like an incredible person.

[Nathan Fillion]

I loved it.

[Alan Tudyk]

He was talking about all of the children's books that she was right. Like a children book for Freud. Like all these children's books that never hit my household. His mother seems like a very intelligent.

[Nathan Fillion]

Woman and she is. I guess when you grow up with somebody that smart, kind of broadens your scope as to seeing what's possible. It was really nice being able to sit with Alexi. There's some other stories. He has an incredible story about how he met his wife. It's extremely hilarious and romantic. It would make a really great episode of television.

[Alan Tudyk]

The one from the band.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yes, yes.

[Alan Tudyk]

Did he mention the band's name? I feel like I didn't hear the band's name.

[Nathan Fillion]

I don't think he did. But here's the end all be all. I much like. I'm hoping this podcast opens people's eyes and hearts to what it's like to hang out with Alan Tudyk. I'm hoping now both you and our listeners have an idea, a little bit better idea of what it's like to hang out with and what Alexi Hawley is like. He is. I Have a pitch for the title of this episode.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, yeah, let's hear it.

[Nathan Fillion]

Once we had some not so horrible bosses. Who was your best boss?

[Alan Tudyk]

Ooh, Frank Oz.

[Nathan Fillion]

I was just showing my lovely girlfriend last night, death at a funeral.

[Alexi Hawley]

Oh, really?

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah. We started a little late, she started to fall asleep, so we put a pause on it. But I mentioned to her how much you love and admire Frank Oz and that when you say his name, you exhale and you say his name with reverence and a dreamy. And I actually, I went to New York and I watched Andy Nyman, who was in the film with you. I also texted him last night to check in on him. Boy, I love Andy. I went to see him in the Hangman in New York on Broadway, and I went to the stage door afterwards to go say hello to him. And I look over and I said, I think that's Frank Oz over there. And I went over to Frank Oz And I said, Mr. Oz, you don't know me, my name's Nathan. I'm a good buddy of Alan Tudyk's. And he goes, oh. And I said, and every time he says your name, he exhales and says it with a dreamy voice and just kind of looks off into the world. He goes, you know that son of a bitch owes me money?

[Alan Tudyk]

Yep, that's Frank Oz. You get that he was the voice of. Of Miss Piggy when that's. He's so much Miss Piggy. Like that kind of smart ass. Hiya. He's got those ready to go at all times.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah. I can see why you like him, but he. He, for you, is one of your best bosses.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah. Because he. He believes in process and artistry and in a way that we all say we do, but doesn't jettison it in.

[Nathan Fillion]

The face of the machine.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, the machine. The day. I mean, we did improv, we did rehearsals, which you never get to do for a movie. But not only that, he had me come to his apartment. Not like that. He had me come to his apartment dressed in my character's costume. And I knocked on the door and the idea was when he opened the door, I was auditioning. I was trying to get a job as a solicitor, which is a lawyer. My character was a solicitor. But my character's high through the whole movie. And he gets high really early on. He's like, we need to know who your character is before that. So I went to his house, his flat in Notting Hill, and he invited me in and interviewed me for a job.

[Nathan Fillion]

We need to know who your character was before the drugs, that fascinates me. Because how can you perform something. It's a layer.

[Alexi Hawley]

Right.

[Nathan Fillion]

How can you paint something without a base coat?

[Alan Tudyk]

Right. That's gonna be a pretty shitty painting or primer or wall or whatever you're painting. Yeah, you need to have. Yeah, you need a foundation. So we did that, and then we went to a Starbucks, and we met the other actress who played my fiance. And he was then a new character where he was our. He was a friend of the family who's an American, and he was really loud in this Starbucks. And we had to be like, please just. Yes, that's wonderful. And he's like, I've always. I've known this girl since she was this high. And like, he was so crazy loud. And I had to. Out in public. Yeah, out in public. And I had to keep my accent in public. I was so nervous about doing my English accent in public. People would be like, what are you?

[Alexi Hawley]

Who are you?

[Alan Tudyk]

You don't. You're not English. But I got to the Starbucks and I was like, I'd like a latte. And the person had, like, a very thick Middle Eastern accent. That'll be four pound fifty. And I was like, oh, you don't care about my accent. We're both working on accents right now.

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm not going to say I'm an accent expert, but I thought your accent was A, fantastic, and B, completely different from any. From any. From A Knight's Tale, which was an entirely different.

[Alan Tudyk]

I was winging it. It was tough, but it was. It was. It was lucky. When you're in England, when you're in London, to have a London is, you know, there's plenty of people around you to remind you what it should be.

[Nathan Fillion]

So. But there's also that aspect of the accent where it's like it changes every six blocks.

[Alan Tudyk]

Right? You're right. Yes. Because everybody comes from so many different places. I mainly sort of, hey, are you from.

[Nathan Fillion]

And. And it's like four blocks away. Yeah, I am. How could you tell?

[Alexi Hawley]

Right?

[Alan Tudyk]

So it's. It's for. For me, it's. Frank. Who is it for you? Who is your favorite boss?

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm saying it right now. It's Alexi Holly. This guy has dramatically improved the quality of my life. And here I am on a long live show, right. With the kind of support that you would always dream of for your show, and a guy at the helm who takes care of us, man. That guy takes care of. Like I said in the podcast, he put together a fund during both Covid and the strike. If there was someone in our community who was having a hard time, we were just making sure no one's going to suffer. No one's going to suffer. And boy, that built community, Ellen. It really did. To this day, people still will say something to me about how meaningful that was. And that was all Alexei's idea. Wow. Yeah. Good man.

[Alan Tudyk]

That is great. That's fantastic.

[Nathan Fillion]

That is a not so horrible boss.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, he's. He's a long term relationship. Like Joss. It wasn't a fling, but it was a very. It was an. It's an instrumental early relationship that you had. And now he prepped you for your long term relationship with Alexi. This is all sounding really sexual and probably not appropriate.

[Nathan Fillion]

You're great at that.

[Alan Tudyk]

I. You know what? I think you're right. I'm inappropriate.

[Nathan Fillion]

Is this the part where I pulled you? Say you're over the line, Alan. This is where. The part where I pull you back.

[Alan Tudyk]

There's a sound about this.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yes, we talked about it.

[Alan Tudyk]

There needs to be a new thing where I can tell when I'm over line because you go. I hear it in my headphones. Oh, like, why did you go there? And I've heard it twice now.

[Nathan Fillion]

Well, Alan. Yeah? Thank you very much for coming and doing the intro slash outro with me. I wish you could have been there and I. We totally get it sometimes, I mean, Comic Con especially, you get busy. But I think we should seriously think about. Or you should seriously think about your one hander. What you're gonna do with your episode. Who are you gonna have as a guest and, you know, you decide the program. Wow. I'm busy too.

[Alan Tudyk]

Okay. Okay. Okay, good.

[Nathan Fillion]

Until next time, my friend.

[Alan Tudyk]

Exciting. Cheers. Oh, my God. Thank you for listening. You just bless your heart. You know what? If you haven't yet, why don't you head on over to our Patreon? You're gonna get some bonus content. That's extra content. They're longer episodes. There's more there. You know what's better than less? More. You also get a chance to get your hands on some incredible crap. The kinds you don't need to wash off after you're done. And if you love the show, please leave us a review and tell your friends. Once we were spaceman is a collision 33 production. The hell that is. The show's produced by Michelle Chapman, Siobhan Holman.

[Alexi Hawley]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

And Josh Levy. I wear them jeans. He is of collision 33. It's all starting to make sense. It's edited and mixed and produced by Resident Records, with special thanks to Courtney Plumquist and Adam Town Self. Our theme music's done by Carlos Sosa.

[Alexi Hawley]

The groove line horns guy. Yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

And Joshua Moore. Artwork is done by Lewis Jensen. Until next time. I swear to God, I love you.

[Nathan Fillion]

That son of a owes me money.