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Alan Cross
Hey, it's Alan and I just wanted to let you know that you can now listen to the ongoing history of new music. Early and ad free on Amazon Music included with Prime. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings. Savings and eligibility vary by State. Shop 4th of July Savings at the Home Depot right now and get up to 40% off plus up to an extra $600 off select appliances with free delivery like Samsung. From all in one washer dryers to smart refrigerators. Upgrade to tech you can trust with Samsung appliances. The Home Depot has what you need to simplify your routine. Don't miss 4th of July appliance savings at the Home Depot. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more offer valid June 18 through July 9, US only. See store or online for Back in the days of Elvis, rock was a pretty singular thing. But from that point on, things began to get complicated. Over the decades, rock music has cleaved and separated and stratified into a million different subtypes. Punk, metal, Prague country, rock, industrial, grunge, kraut, rock, emo. You know what I mean? Each subtype and even each sub subtype or even sub sub subtype has a specific appeal to a certain audience. This gives rise to an equal number of rock related subcultures or sub subcultures or even sub sub subcultures. Some of these subcultures come and go. They have a lifespan that corresponds to a particular musical trend. And once that trend runs its course, the subculture it spawned withers and diesel. It happened with new wave back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Anyone still into rockabilly? Hey, even grunge is gone, although its echoes remain. But then there's goth. Goth rock began as a spin off from the British punk of the 1970s and became quite the rage by the early 1980s. But unlike a lot of rock based subcultures, it did not wither and die. Instead, it spread and got stronger. Its influence began to extend beyond just music. It crept into film and fashion and television and literature and every corner of pop culture. It is really, really fascinating. But goth can also be very misunderstood. I mean, let's face it, the look and sound of Goth can be a little scary and intimidating to the uninitiated. And just like every subculture, it's the crazies, the extremists that bring a bad name to everyone. And that is just wrong. This is Understanding Goth Part two. This is the ongoing History of New Music podcast with Alan Cross, the Sisters of Mercy with their version of the Stones Gimme Shelter, a classic goth rock single from 1983. The singer is Andrew Eldridge. He's sometimes called the godfather of goth, and with a voice and delivery like that, you can see why. Welcome again, I'm Alan Cross and this is the second half of a program designed to shed some light on the undead aspects of goth rock. And I mean this with the greatest amount of respect. Goth is one of the strongest, most solid, most widespread of all the subcultures in rock, and it's worldwide. You have your traditional goths and your neo goths, mall goths, mini goths and Baby Bats are teenagers who are too young to get into the goth clubs. Mansonites are followers of Marilyn Manson, which, depending on the viewpoint, might be a good thing or an insult. You may also be called a spooky kid if you have a Manson thing going on. In Los Angeles, the word death rock was thrown around for a while. If you're an Australian, you're a Gogan. In Spain, you might be called a cucaracha. In Italy, the term is dark. There are goth scenes in France and Belgium, Scandinavia, Russia, Japan and New Zealand. In short, goth is pretty much everywhere you find rock music. On part one, we looked at how goth came to be in the late 1970s, and then we followed the development of what can be best described as first generation Goth, which extended to about 1985. So we're going to move forward from there. By the middle part of the decade, goth had spread far beyond just its birthplace. In the uk, it was carried on the wings of music. Sisters of Mercy, Susie and the Banshees and the Cure. Now there is a big debate as to the goth purity of both the Banshees and the Cure among the faithful. And both bands have, at one time or another, distanced themselves from the goth label. But the dark music, the themes of introspection and the fashion have inextricably linked both the Banshees and the Cure to goths. And whether they were goth or not is irrelevant. Once discovered, both bands inevitably led back to the same place. Let's move to the beat like we know that it's over we still going under silly Opening the Cure from 1989's Disintegration album. The bigger they got, the more they became the de facto face of goth. They might not have liked the goth classification and some hardcore goths might disapprove of them being included under this umbrella. But let's face it, the goth scene probably would not be what it is today without Robert Smith, whether he wants to admit it or not. Goth also wouldn't be where it is today without David Bowie. Now, Bowie starred as a rather elegant vampire in a movie called the hunger back in 1983. This film was a big favorite among the goth kids, especially since it included a nightclub scene with Bauhaus performing Bela Lugosi's Dead. It's another example of how if you try hard enough, you will in some way always manage to link something back to David Bowie. Alright, back to this idea of second generation Goth. In the latter half of the 1980s, along with the Cure and the Sisters of Mercy, Susie and the Banshees, and some Immortal, Bauhaus and Joy Division records, there were a series of other bands that, while not exactly big in the mainstream, were huge parts of the cult of the goth. This included the Mission Fields of the Nephilim, Redlory Yellowlory, Clan of Zymox, the March Violets and a slew of others. One of my favorites was Dead Can Dance, a group that sounded like they were right out of the 16th century. I mean, how much more gothic can you get than a band that sounds like they were recording someplace in. In the 1500s, some aspects of goth culture began to be formalized thanks to the spread of goth themed magazines, the biggest of which was probably propaganda. There's sort of a gay softcore porn thing now, but it was a goth bible for a while. Mainstream music publications, most notably the Enemy and the Face, both out of the uk, began to pay more attention, drawn largely out of the fashion sense of the whole thing. There's something really appealing and alluring about the goth look. And goth itself began to cleave and stratify as it found ways to adapt to different musical, cultural and fashion environments. 4ad was a record label that specialized not only in goth, but in something closely related. In America there was a label called Cleopatra, dedicated entirely to the scene. Germany saw a bunch of different goth labels pop up. Goth infected a number of post new wave technopop bands too, turning them from happy, bouncy and lightweight to to dark and powerful and even sinister. Now, Depeche Mode did not begin as a goth band, nor were they ever really goth. But as the 1980s wore on, they were influenced by this music and ended up selling a gazillion records as a result. And once again, many who discovered Depeche Mode during this era of their career were led to the source of this darkness. And once again, goth grew. Someone should be our friend. Someone to fail. The next stage in goth's development came at the result of more cross pollination. And this time it was with its close cousin, industrial music. And then the ultra crazies came in and screwed everything up for everyone. But more on that in a second. Summer is coming right to your door with Target Circle 360 get all the season go tos at home with same day delivery Snacks for the pool party delivered sun lotion and towels for a beach day delivered pillows and lights to deck out the deck that too delivered just when you want them Summer your way quick and easy Join now and get all the summer fun Delivered right to your home with target circle360 membership required, subject to terms and conditions. Applies to orders over $35. Savor every last drop of summer with Starbucks. From bold refreshers to rich cold brews, the sunniest season only gets better with a handcrafted ice beverage in your hand. Available for a limited time. Your summer favorites are ready at Starbucks. Welcome back to a program I call Understanding Goth. Think of this as a beginner's guide to one of the longest surviving alternative rock subcultures in the world. A close cousin of goth is industrial music. Like goth, it's dark and often introspective, and the dominant fashion color is of course black. The main difference is that this music is very, very hard and very, very heavy. In fact, you can point to certain examples where a band was goth, was goth was goth, and there their sound reached a certain intensity and extremeness where they crossed that line from goth into industrial. This is the case with Ministry. They started out as a distinctly lightweight, technical technopop band and went through a distinct goth stage before becoming one of the heaviest industrial bands around. And even after they crossed that line, Ministry maintained goth properties, especially in terms of fashion and stage props. Now here's Ministry from their goth period didn't last really that long, the pure goth period, just a couple of years. But during that time they released what has become an all time goth anthem. And the lyrics really just kind of say it all. Why can't I live at why should I take the abuse answer? Why can't they see them just like me? It's the same, it's the same ministry from 1984 with an immortal goth anthem, Every day is Halloween. Some bands straddle that line between goth and industrial just by doing what they do. Nine Inch Nails and Skinny Puppy are just two examples. A more contemporary example of goth going industrial would be Marilyn Manson. Brian Warner, which is Marilyn Manson's real name, used to be a wannabe music writer in Florida with a fascination for goth music. Cross that with a love for industrial bands like Nine Inch Nails and Skinny Puppy and an admiration for intense Florida death metal, and you get this spooky looking group all dressed in black, each adopting a pseudonym that included the name of a serial killer. Marilyn Manson's music and image is pretty extreme. At the same time, Manson himself is very well read, very well spoken, and this combination is a powerful attraction to many different types of fans. Unfortunately, this has also included some of the more infamous and violent crazy nut cases that we've seen in our lifetime. Why is it that whenever there's a school shooting, Marilyn Manson's music is mentioned as a favorite of the shooter or the shooters? This has been the case ever since Eric and Dylan put on their long coats and drove over to Columbine High School. This one event did more to vilify the whole notion of goth than any other in the history of this music. The press had a field day looking for an easy answer to this unimaginable act of violence. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. The beautiful people. Marilyn Manson from 1996. So is Manson goth or industrial? A bit of both, really, and neither, actually. It all depends on which goths you ask. The Disney Hulu Max Bundle. It's the ultimate bundle for an unbelievable price plan starting at $16.99 a month. Get it and watch Marvel Television's Ironheart on Disney. I want to build something iconic. A new season of the Bear on Hulu. We can make people happy. And the epic A Minecraft movie on Max. Anything, anything you can imagine is possible. The Disney Plus Hulu Max bundle plan starting at $16.99 a month. All these and more streaming soon. Terms apply. Visit disneyhulemaxmundle.com for details. This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece. The one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top. Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion ebay things people love. Goth and industrial have been evolving simultaneously for years now. And it's almost like there's some kind of unspoken division of labor in terms of intensity. While industrial is hard and fast and heavy and distorted and angry, goth can be softer and slower. And here's that word again. Introspective. Now to put it another way, industrial relies a lot on guitars and the sharp keyboard sounds of techno over ultra heavy beats. On the other hand, goth has a keyboard based approach that is more in common with the techno pop of the early 1980s and the smoother flavors of modern electronica than it does with any hard techno. As a result, it's somehow a little more, I don't know, danceable, if that makes sense. That's that dance club influence that keeps creeping in. Goth music's influence continued to expand through the latter half of the 1990s. More and more specific niches cropped up. Most bands have remained deep underground, which is where they and their fans prefer to remain. Initiation is required. I think we'll get back to that a little bit later on. First of all, there are goth tinged genres. Industrial falls into this category. Some emo ish bands emphasize their goth leanings, especially with their Look. Check out 30 seconds to Mars or My Chemical Romance. Take a look at the way guitarist Dave Navarro dresses. He's even got a coffin in the front room of his house. Look at Amy Lee of Evanescence. There's definitely goth in her DNA. There are a series of metal scenes that have absorbed elements of goth, especially death metal. All you have to do is check out any albums by Deicide, Cannibal Corpse or some of those fun groups out of Scandinavia. You know, the ones whose members and followers kill each other and burn down churches. Same thing with doom metal, which is slow and intense. And then blackened death metal. Yeah, blackened death metal, which intends to invoke Satan a lot. They're a lot of fun. And then there are the purists, the so called death goths. These are the performers and fans that are faithful to the original musical fashion and lifestyle aesthetics first created at the end of the 1970s. And the guitar to these people, very important instrument. Bauhaus and Jordavision are big with these people. New York's Interpol is a part of this scene. Let's hear something from them and you'll see what I mean, this is from their 2002 album called Turn on the Bright Lights. This is PDA. You are the only person who's completely certain there's nothing here to be into. That is all that you can do. You are the past. Interpol, one of the best known of the contemporary goth, or at least gothish bands that seek to keep alive the spirit of 1979. I want to play you something else. This is a group called the Dresden Dolls. They're a two piece group out of Boston and they look and sound like what might have happened had Susie and the Banshees been playing the cabarets in East Berlin in 1932. It's kind of sort of goth, Goth enough to be invited on tour with Nine Inch Nails. And they certainly got that literate approach to music down pat. And for what it's worth, I really like this group. Let me play you something from a self titled album from 2004. This is called Girl Anachronism. Great video with this. These are the Dresden Doll. And you can tell from the full body cast that you're sorry that you asked, that you did everything you could, like any decent person would. But I might be catching. So don't touch. Surely that you're immune to gravity and stuff. Don't get me right, because the bandages will all come off. You can tell from the spike at the stick that the current stick is critical. It's the little thing, science fiction. The Dresden Dolls with Girl Anachronism related to them. And their subflavor of Goth would be Rasputina, a group that wouldn't be out of place opening for Shakespeare at the globe theatre in 1609. And there's a lot more out there. And like I said, much of it is buried deep underground, which is frankly where it prefers to stay. There are many goth CD collections, but it's hard to find one where everyone really agrees that it's even remotely definitive. A really, really, really good place to start is a box set called A Life Less Lived, the Goth Box, which came out in the fall of 2006 on the rhino label. It's a very good historical overview of where goth came from. And the box, the box of all the CDs and the DVD. It comes in a leather corset. Seriously, it's dressed in a leather corset. The best way to seek out all the different contemporary goth bands is through labels that specialize in this music. A good American label is Metropolis Records. Love this name too. Dancing Ferret Records. And there are tons and tons of magazines worth checking out. There's Drop Dead magazine, there's Gothic Beauty, that's another, and a bunch of other fanzines. And if you're interested in learning more, be prepared to debate and defend. If you're going to be initiated and accepted, you'd better know your stuff. Goth rock may be one of the longest surviving of all the post punk genres, but it's also one of the least understood, or at least by the general public and the mass media. On the surface, it can be scary and intimidating if you don't understand and appreciate the culture that goes along with it. And it doesn't help that the only time it seems to get any kind of widespread attention is when some gun wielding nutcase goes on a rampage and someone decides to check on what this dude had on his ipod. Whoa, he listened to Marilyn Manson. And some of that other weird stuff where everybody looks like they're perpetually going to a funeral. Hey, these people are fascinated with death. They must embrace death and wish death upon others. Etc. Etc. Etc. The truth is that the vast, vast majority of people associated with goth culture are gentle, literate people who just like to hang out with like minded folks. Kind of sounds like any other musical scene, doesn't it? And look how goth fashion has spread throughout pop culture, movies, tv, mainstream fashion, literature, art. Goth's been around for decades and it is not going away anytime soon. Get used to it and please ignore the crazies. Technical productions by Rob Johnston I'm Alan Cross. Big brother is back. Let's break it go. This summer, the game gets hotter, the alliances get trickier and the blind sides brutal. Just a roller coaster of backstabbing and craziness. New house guests, new twists. Same epic drama. Bro, I'm gunning for you. You're my number one target. Who can you trust when everyone's watching? Game on, baby. Big Brother new season. Thursday, July 10th on Global Stream on Stack TV.