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Hey, it's Alan and I just wanted to let you know that you can now listen to the ongoing history of new music, early and ad free on Amazon. Music included with Prime. Ready to relax in your dream bath retreat without the stress of figuring out every detail yourself? At the Home Depot, your bath remodel is covered. Shop fully designed rooms and curated bath collections to go from inspiration to transformation fast. Use digital tools to visualize flooring in your space and find everything you need from tubs to toilets and all the tile in between to bring your vision to life. The Home Depot dream Baths built here. I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three? Steven because he's so evil, I do think he is misunderstood. You see everyone face consequences. It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick ya. There's always a twist in this show. It's nothing you would expect. Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. Now streaming and streamed the new season of Tell Me Lies on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. I'm going to try and tell the complete history of rock music in just 90 seconds. Are you ready? Here we go. Rock and roll begins in the 1950s when R& B and several other genres merge thanks to Elvis, Chuck Berry and Little Richard. There's a lull when Elvis goes into the army, but is soon filled by the Beach Boys and songs about California and surfing, followed almost immediately by the Beatles and the British Invasion. Then comes Dylan, the hippies and drugs, leading to everything from an explosion in garage bands to groups that make music so complex they might as well have been classical musicians. That's Prague, the seventies. See album sales explode in the domination of FM rock radio. Recording studios and techniques become more sophisticated and rock follows. Meanwhile, punk comes along as a potent reactionary force where everything is ripped up and everybody starts again. Punk evolves into new wave in all its flavors, including those powered by synthesizers. Hair metal takes over for most of the 80s before flaming out and being replaced by grunge and all the alt rock of the 1990s. While Britain has a great time with Manchester and Britpop, but that gets tired after a while, but is reborn under the guise of indie rock in the late 90s and early 2000s. Then streaming comes along and blows up all the cycles of music and introduces an uncountable number of approaches and sounds. So in summary, early rock n roll, surf rock, British rock, garage bands, psych rock, metal, soft rock, country rock, Proto punk, pre punk, punk rock, plus prog rock, power pop, corporate rock, new wave, alternative, indie, grunge, industrial, goth rock, Manchester, Brit pop, rap rock, and the indie rock revival. That was 83 seconds. Not bad. One thing I didn't mention is something known as post rock. That's. That's weird. The name implies something comes after rock, but rock is obviously still with us. So how can there be an after when there's still a now? Let's see if we can deconstruct things. This is part one of an attempt to to define the slippery term known as post rock. This is the ongoing History of New Music podcast with Alan Cross. Welcome again, I'm Alan Cross. As humans, we have this instinctive need for organization because we want to understand what's going on. And this often means putting things into nice neat piles and giving these piles labels and names. This happens a lot with music. There is so much of it out there, at least a couple hundred million songs, and we do whatever we can to sort through it all. Sometimes the labels that we give these piles are clear and concise. Other times not so much. Because the sort of music we're trying to categorize doesn't want to be categorized. It just doesn't fit any of the boxes we've made. So we make another box, a junk drawer sort of thing. We where we throw all this stuff until things resolve to a point where we can go and sort things or not. This brings me to one of the most baffling genres, and I think it's a genre of everything that has been branded post rock. Like I said, the use of the prefix post implies that this music comes after rock. Rock is over, done, finished, and this is what comes next. But since rock is still very much with us, what's so post about the music that we find in this particular junk drawer? Well, nothing actually. Post rock is still rock, but it is different enough, just different enough to make it stand outside what we would call normal rock. And you can make that mean whatever you like. It's going to take two programs to sort everything out here. And along the way, you're going to hear some really interesting music. It may not all be your jam, but if you pay attention, you can hear how these sounds have crept across all rock music over the decades. Or maybe, and this is my hope, you'll be lured down the post rock rat hole. And trust me, many delights await. If we're going to start somewhere, the Velvet Underground is a good place. When they first appeared in 1965, Rock and Roll, which is what we call the singles oriented music about basically cars and girls. And that sort of thing was still largely considered to be disposable and effervescent. Here today, gone tomorrow and the domain of AM radio and 7 inch singles played on a portable record player. This was not serious music and it wasn't for serious people. That was the thinking. But beginning in 1965 there was a change. The music became deeper, more sophisticated, more existential. It was maturing into a potent art form that demanded respect, analysis and study. And this is when the nomenclature begins to change from rock and roll to just rock. And let me emphasize this as much as I possibly can. The Velvet Underground was not normal for 1965. First, their name came from a trashy novel about BDSM. They were from the gritty, dirty, seedy streets of New York. They sang about sex and drugs and and weird street characters. They were so far outside the common standards of the cars and girls thing of the day that no one really knew what they were. They were signed to a jazz label because nobody knew what to do with them. The Velvets have been rightly called, in my opinion anyway, the first alternative band because they were definitely an alternative to what was happening with mainstream rock and roll. They were also probably the first post rock band in that they couldn't be neatly categorized. I can't begin to tell you how weird this sort of thing was for 1965. It was outlier music for outsiders. Downy sins of streetlight Fancies chase the costumes she shall wear her mind spur Couple of things about that song Venus and Furs. It has some of the characteristics that we would find in modern post rock music. Song structure is definitely non traditional. Texture is important, atmospherics are paramount and the subject matter is unusual. There are rock instruments, but they're really not used in the regular rock way. I mean, where are the riffs? It's all very experimental and unconventional and this is the kind of stuff that would have never ever been played on the radio. The next step on the post rock ladder is probably the music that came out of West Germany in the 1970s. German musicians were looking to distance themselves from the music of Germany's Nazi past, which meant creating material that was different from what their parents and grandparents liked. These young people also wanted there to be a distinct German rock style, different from what was happening in the UK in America. They liked psychedelic rock and electronic music. And they were brave enough to try approaches that weren't necessarily rooted in the blues and R and B traditions of Standard rock. Now this music did rock, but in its own way. It was different enough for it to have its own name. The Germans called it Kosmich music, cosmic music. But then some cheeky Brit decided it should be called kraut rock, and that name stuck. There are many different varieties of kraut rock. Some went all in with electronics like Kraftwerk. Others, like Noi, preferred material with a driving hypnotic 44 rhythm known as motoric, which evoked driving in a car on the Autobahn. And can another band experimented by combining jazz with psych and funk and samba and found sound and spacey sounds. This is a track from 1976 called I Want More. And this was a hit single in Germany. Rock, right? Right. Maybe, but also something beyond it. So post rock maybe, but not yet, because we have to look at two other things, the first of which was post punk. Now that term is easier to understand. It's the music that we began to hear in the wake of the original punk rock explosion. The best definition of post rock that I've ever read, and I think this comes from music writer Simon Reynolds, is music that wasn't punk. But you could tell by listening to it that punk had to have happened. Punk itself was not revolutionary, it was reactionary. It stripped rock back to its very basics, the foundations of rock. And when it did that, the next generation of musicians was free to build things up again using different tools and different attitudes. Post punk was an umbrella term for rock music of the late 1970s. It fished in deeper waters than punk. It went outside the norms of traditional rock. It was more avant garde in style and thinking. And it brought in sounds from synthesizers, world music, funk, jazz and dance music. Ideas came from all forms of non musical art, like cinema and literature and politics and fashion. David Bowie's low album from 1977 ticked all those boxes. Produced by Brian Eno, a one time member of the highly influential art rock band Roxy Music. Side one of Low was semi conventional, featuring vocal performances. Side two was not. It was all instrumental. And here's an example. This is called Art Decade. Bowie was hardly alone with his experimentations. Goth, darkwave, dream pop, the jangly guitars of bands like R.E.M. the spiky stuff of groups like Wire and Shoegaze were, and in some cases still are, artists in those buckets that we can consider to be post punk. Same thing with Brian Eno's solo experiments in ambient music. He came from a rock background. He was, like I said, part of Roxy Music. And then became a renowned producer for groups like U2. Working on the band's biggest records. But listening to this, you knew that he was no longer making rock. Eno took things to an extreme again. Atmospherics, textures, repetition. The goal was mode, not necessarily telling a story of any kind with lyrics. And in Eno's case, there were no lyrics. Let's hear a bit from Eno's 1978 album, Music for Airports. That's awfully relaxing, isn't it? I often put on some of Eno's albums when I need to focus and immerse myself in work. Public Image Limited, Johnny Lydon's band after the Sex Pistols, was also unconventional in its own way. Johnny deliberately set out to put together an anti rock band. His Words. Johnny moved away from the snarling guitars of punk and the riffage of traditional rock, and embraced elements of Jamaican dub and reggae music. His bass player, Joe Wobble, was fond of saying that rock is obsolete. All this came together with a lot of deep bass, the use of noise, and even some dancy disco elements. The music was repetitive, designed for the listener to immerse themselves in the sounds. And that's the kraut rock influence. In 1979, Public Image Limited released an album called Metal Box. We have to listen to this in context too. Put yourself back in the late 1970s and imagine hearing this for the first time. It was rock, but it wasn't. It was punk, but it also wasn't that. So what was it? Was it the next stage of the evolution of rock? Possibly. And then there was how it was released. Metal Box came in a literal metal box. Six sides of 12 inch vinyl, each spinning at 45 RPM. Not normal. The first single was inspired by the death of Johnny's mom and it was called Death Disco. I should point out something about Death Disco by Public Image Ltd. It was retitled Swan Lake for the Metal Box album, which is why you don't see it in the liner notes. Same song, different title. However things were named, though, Public Image's Metal Box is considered to be one of the most important of all the post punk releases, simply because it pushed so many conventional musical limits. But here's the question. How long can a post whatever era last before things evolve beyond that? Okay, let's try and answer that question in a second. Good morning crust It's a great day to be a bread brother Mornings are not my jam or jelly oh, come on, stop loafing around I just woke up feeling hollow inside Just grab one of the new morning Uncrustable sandwiches Like Bright Eyed Berry or Up and apple filled with 12 grams of protein and tons of deliciousness crust. What are you eating? It's just granola. Not even yogurt. No crust, no fuss. Uncrust your mornings, Amadeus. Yeah, that Amadeus shows up in Vienna at 25. He's jobless, totally free from his dad and ready to make some noise. He finds love in an amazing partner, Constanze Weber, and suddenly he's dropping beats that nobody can ignore. Salieri was convinced that Amadeus was God's chosen one. So he had to be silenced. Tune in to the story of history's most infamous musical rivalry, Amadeus. All new Mondays on Showcase Stream on Stack tv. Before we go any further in this history of post rock, we have to loop around to New York for a very short lived scene called no Wave. This happened in the late 1970s. This was very avant garde stuff. Material that was deliberately non commercial and deliberately made to be difficult to listen to. Lots of dissonance, lots of noise and a lot of guitar chords and sounds that just did not make sense. Elements of free jazz and funk and disco were sometimes incorporated. There was no consistent sound to no Wave. It was all about creating an effect and eliciting a response of any kind, even if it was anger. All no Wave artists professed to reject all conventions of rock, even as it was expressed in punk and New wave. It was nihilistic, it was pessimistic, it was confrontational. But it was also wrapped in an artsy guise that included cinema, fashion and all manner of visual art. The best document of this era is a compilation album curated by, and here's that name again, Brian Eno. It was called no New York and I'll give you a taste from that record. This is Teenage Jesus and the Jerks with their front person, Lydia Lunch. It's called Burning Rubber and it's one of the more accessible songs from the scene. And again, try to imagine hearing this in 1978. This was not Van Halen or even the Clash. It's a tough listen for most, but that's the whole point. Teenage Jesus and the jerks from 1978 and burning rubber, an example of the New York no wave scene. Definitely not rock. Something I don't know beyond it. And it's worth pointing out that Sonic Youth was a part of the New York no wave scene and they ended up doing fine, didn't they? Post punk was a thing from about 1979 through to the mid-1980s before things got splintered and segmented so much that we needed a whole bunch of new categories Post punk no longer worked as an all encompassing umbrella term for the experimental music that grew out of the original punk scene of the 1970s. And here is where we finally encountered the term post rock. Just as with the term post punk, post rock seems to have been popularized by music writer Simon Reynolds. It wasn't his idea. The term had been around since, get this, 1967 in a time magazine article about the Beatles great leap forward with the Sgt. Pepper album. But Reynolds helped popularize it in the 1980s. The first time he used it in print was in 1993 when he was searching for a way to describe an album entitled Hex by a group called Bark Psychosis. And for context, we should probably have a little sample of that. This is a track called Street Scene. Here is where we begin to categorize groups as post rock groups. That and these are Simon Reynolds words using rock instrumentation for non rock purposes. Okay, like what? Well, for example, guitarists used for texture and atmospherics versus riffing and power chords. As post rock entered the music vernacular, people began to look back to see if there were any other earlier groups who met this criterion. And yes, there were. We can talk about the glorious noise of Ireland's My Bloody Valentine, a group founded in 1983. Dream pop like the Cocteau Twins works. This is very immersive stuff, heavy on the atmospherics and texture, with lots of effects and processing, and with only a passing nod to traditional song structures. We could include early industrial music, go back and listen to some of the first recordings by groups such as Britain's Throbbing Gristle and Germany's Einstersende Neubauten. That is wild stuff. The goal by these artists and others was to show that the electric guitar wasn't necessary, or at the very least could be something other than a conventional rock instrument. We might also consider TalkTalk, a great English art rock band that was Radiohead before Radiohead. Led by Mark Hollis, Talk Talk went to places few dared to go and with a period of great success. This is from a 1986 album entitled the Color of Spring and was a throwback to the aesthetics of Kraut rock. A few synths, textural use of guitars, organ and piano, and some haunting vocal. Talk Talk was part of an experimental scene in the UK through the late 80s and early 1990s, and certainly the most commercially successful of the post rock bunch of that time. Another group worth a mention is Stereolab. They were originally from France, but relocated to London in 1990. They took elements of Kraut rock, brought in some vintage Synthesizer sounds and started playing with influences of everything from French pop music from the 1960s to funk and jazz and even Brazilian music. Throw in a little surrealist attitude and situationist philosophy and you got something pretty interesting. Look at the album titles. Transient random noise bursts with announcements. Emperor Tomato, Ketchup, Margarine Eclipse. This is a track from their 1994 album Mars Audiac Quartet and it's called wow and Flutter. Stereo lab from 1994. If you want to dig deeper into the early 90s UK post rock scene, write down these band names. Laika, Sea Feel, Moonshake and Disco Inferno. Pay attention to the jazz style rhythms, the big spacious production and the use of atmospherics and dynamics. This is great. Headphones in the dark Listening from Britain we need to go to Chicago. There was something known as the Chicago school of post rock. The focus here was on instrumentation, tight performances, clean recordings and use of things like Fender Rhodes, electric pianos, marimbas and vibraphones. This wasn't rock, but for this to exist, rock must have happened. Ergo, post rock Tortoise was formed in 1990 and were not normal in a rock sense. They had two bass players, three percussionists and used a series of non rock percussion instruments. As for advancing the cause of post rock, we have to look at their 1995 album Millions. Now living will never die. The first single was called DJed and I'd love to play you that, but it runs for 21 minutes. But trust me when I tell you that it's really cool. So let's go with the second single which is called the Taut and the Tame. Tortoise. Not exactly rock, but certainly with rock DNA. DNA that was somehow mutated into something more. Kind of like Peter Parker when he was bitten by a radioactive spider. Now from Chicago, we must move to Canada for another look at the evolution of post rock. And that scene, small as it was, helped define post rock for the entire planet. Welcome back to the first part of a two episode story on this thing that we've come to call post rock. As things were coalescing in their own way in both the UK and Chicago, something else was happening in Canada. Several groups were also bored with rock conventions. So they basically threw everything away and started again. Toronto had do make say Think who appeared in 1995. All instrumental, lots of bass, guitar, jazzy drums, wind instruments, string instruments and very distorted guitars. In Montreal, there's Godspeed you Black Emperor, a collective formed in 1994. They are fiercely independent with their own label and have a global cult following. And Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails is a major fan. Godspeed is highly influential in the post rock universe. Most of their stuff is instrumental, although they do make use of spoken word monologues and field recordings. Tracks can extend to 20 minutes or more, but they need that time to build and set the mood, to create the atmosphere, to build to a crescendo and then back down again. Themes can be dystopian, highly political, and even anarchist. They are also vocal supporters of prisoners and those who have been wronged by society, and there are tons of side projects all pursuing the same ends. If we have to start somewhere, it should probably be with the band's 2000 album lift your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven. This is a double record that features four 20 minute songs and in the time we have left, let's have a listen to as much of this piece as we possibly can. It is called Storm, A portion of Storm by Montreal post rock heroes Godspeed, you Black emperor from their 2000 album lift your skinny Fists like Antennas to Heaven. Our look at the story of post rock is only half done. Next time we'll move deeper into the 1990s with material from groups that rarely, if ever, make it onto the radio. But what they do is extremely important to the health, evolution and future of all all rock music. As you will see, many bands that we know WellRadiohead, Arcade Fire, smashing Pumpkins, the national and many others have taken their cues from the post rock world and this world is truly global. Canada, the us, the uk, Poland, Iceland, Japan. It figures into movie soundtracks, TV themes, video game music and a whole lot more. And the goal of all this is to open your ears to just a little bit more. Meanwhile, if you want to listen to any other ongoing history shows, there were hundreds of them available via podcasts on all the platforms. They're all 100% free. I also have another podcast entitled Crime and Mayhem in the Music Industry. It's all about the collisions of true crime and music. And believe me, there are some very wild stories. All those podcasts are free too. If you get a chance, check out my website ajournalofmusicalthings.com it's updated every day with music, news, opinion and recommendation. And the best way to keep tabs is with the free daily newsletter. It is free. I'm on most of the social media websites. Perhaps we'll stumble across each other there and you can always email me. In fact, I encourage it. Allanalloncross Ca See you back here for part two of an attempt to define the beast that we call post rock. Technical productions by rob johnston. I'm alan cross. Welcome to Survivor50 February 25th on Global. We chose you to represent 25 years of the greatest adventure on television. It's the biggest season ever. The twist is going to open up pandora's box. Now I see Zach brown on survivor. Welcome to Survivor. Mr. Beast. Feels a little like a high school reunion meets a massacre. Survivor 50th season Wednesday, February 25th on Global Stream on Stack TV.