In EP 41, John and Jason discuss the evolving challenge of moving beyond 'copy-paste' AI policies to create syllabus guidelines that encourage students to engage in the 'productive struggle' of learning.

See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com

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Host Bios:

Walk into schools today and generative AI is on the agenda—and many leaders aren’t sure what to do with it. John Nash helps them figure it out. An associate professor at the University of Kentucky and founding director of the Laboratory on Design Thinking, he makes AI practical and useful, not just theoretical. He’s on two generative AI advisory boards at the University of Kentucky and one at MidPacific Institute in Honolulu, advising educators from local superintendents to teachers in international schools. He teaches courses in design thinking, leading deeper learning, and mixed methods research, and his research interests study the application of human-centered design in organizational leadership.

Jason Johnston is the Executive Director of Online Learning & Course Production in Digital Learning at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. His background includes developing and launching online degree programs, directing educational technology, teaching, and working as an audio engineer. Holding a PhD in Educational Leadership, an M.Ed. in Educational Technology, and an M.Div., Jason advocates for humanity and equity in online education while helping educators leverage technology for the future. He co-hosts the podcast Online Learning in the Second Half (www.onlinelearningpodcast.com) and enjoys playing guitar, building Lego, and traveling with his family.

Resources:

University of Kentucky Syllabus Policy: https://celt.uky.edu/ai-course-policy-examples
University of Tennessee, Knoxville Syllabus Policy: https://writingcenter.utk.edu/sample-syllabus-statements-for-ai-guidelines/
Jason’s Policy Icons: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MG9h68__uqPSz6HXNeVymJhal1VNapjyK-2PFa5QFxI/edit?usp=sharing
John’s Policy Example: https://johnnash.notion.site/John-Nash-s-Stance-on-Generative-AI-Use-by-Students-in-Courses-2eff24fd17cc8043ae2be34712680c28
Chronicle article by Geoff Watkinson “I’m an AI Power User. It Has No Place in the Classroom. Learning to think for yourself has to come first.“: https://www.chronicle.com/article/im-an-ai-power-user-it-has-no-place-in-the-classroom (paywalled - should be able to read for free with login)

Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License.

Battle Hymn of the Republic is public domain from the Library of Congress https://www.loc.gov/item/jukebox-767050/

Transcript

We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections!

[00:00:00] Jason: Can we do the quick intro?

[00:00:02] John Nash: Yeah,

hold on.

[00:00:03] Jason: That was the intro to your other podcast.

[00:00:06] John Nash: Yeah,

[00:00:06] Jason: John, have you

[00:00:07] John Nash: exactly.

[00:00:08] Jason: Beyond My Back?

[00:00:10] John Nash: No, I am not podcasting. Behind your back.

I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston.

[00:00:15] Jason: John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half the

[00:00:19] John Nash: I.

[00:00:19] Jason: Learning podcast. Mm-hmm.

[00:00:20] John Nash: Yeah, we're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last three years about online education. Look, online learning has had its chance to be great, and some of it is, but a lot still has a way to go. How are we going to get to the next stage, Jason?

[00:00:35] Jason: is a great question. How about we do a podcast and talk about it?

[00:00:39] John Nash: Perfect. What do you want to talk about today?

[00:00:41] Jason: You know, you always ask me that question and I really appreciate it. But what do you want to talk about today, John?

[00:00:47] John Nash: Oh, you know what I want to talk about today? I want to talk about the struggle that instructors are having to set guidelines for the use of generative AI in their classes.

[00:00:57] Jason: I think that sounds like a great conversation, especially the front

end of a semester here.

[00:01:02] John Nash: Yeah, is it the lawyers that say, or the justices that say, "this is not settled law?"

[00:01:07] Jason: Hmm.

[00:01:07] John Nash: This is definitely not settled law. We, we are not lawyers. We do not play them on podcasts. We are just a couple of, a couple of folks that are trying to think this through.

So, Jason, we just came off of a really cool episode with Megan Haselschwerdt at University of Tennessee, one of your colleagues, who engaged your office to think about ways to deal with how her students were using generative AI in her class.

And that's really made me think a lot about how a lot of us are wondering how we can have guidelines that work in our classes where it really doesn't matter what it is we're teaching.

I think it'd be good if we could talk about that. I've had some really big evolving thoughts around my own stance on this. Even after three years in, I think I've finally written down something I can live with. But there's a lot of options out there for faculty and teachers and instructors.

There are stoplight protocols. There are guidelines out there that universities have put out that faculty can adopt just right out of the box. But do they really fit? I talk with my colleagues at my work and they're sort of saying, sometimes "just tell me what I should put in my syllabus" and I'm replying with things like, "well, it's hard to say that this will fit your syllabus because really it's an ethical conversation you need to have with yourself and your students."

And so, I think it'd be really good for us to sort of lay out what we're doing, what we're hearing, and get people to give us feedback on what they're doing and even call into question our own stances.

[00:02:43] Jason: Yeah, at the end of the podcast with Megan, we're kind of asking for advice for faculty. One of the things she talked about was that she wished she had a little more coaching before she started her class when she was designing her class. Wish she had a little more coaching, a little more time to talk about it.

And I think that makes complete sense. I think what we're seeing is that, without a lot of time spent on it, I think faculty are, are kind of defaulting to the two extremes. Either they're not saying anything about it, maybe just letting anything happen with regards to ai, or they're putting in a really quick statement, or maybe they say something in their first class how they don't allow any AI use whatsoever. I think Megan's story, and this is a spoiler about how good it is, but I think it was just a great story to talk about how faculty might be able to kind of wrestle with that and figure out where there might be a middle ground that would actually increase learning for the students and engagement, but also potentially decrease the actual use of AI.

[00:03:51] John Nash: Yeah, maybe talk a little bit about what the overarching approaches are at University of Tennessee Knoxville, and I can say what has been promulgated here at the University of Kentucky. I think they're a little bit similar and just sort of, there are some I call them stoplight protocols.

You get a red, yellow, or green kind of approach that a faculty can copy and paste and drop into their syllabus. And can you also talk a little bit about what the pros and cons are of that copy paste approach without maybe thinking about what the actual work is that students might do in your class.

[00:04:27] Jason: Yeah, we a similar thing it sounds like to UK, which the provost office has the kind of the, the, the strict no AI, the, know. AI freedom kind of thing, and then a moderate approach. And we can put the links into both of those. Both at UK and University of Tennessee, Knoxville. And, and so that's, so that's, essentially the guidance we've been giving for syllabus.

And I think people do copy and paste those in. the kind of what our approach as we're helping. Faculty design online courses have been a little bit more customized and to spend some more time in that messy middle of "moderate," because when it comes to "moderate," it does take, I

think, more intentionality

and more communication and more thought you approach it.

And prob...