Narrator/Host 1 (2:39)

John's been in the industry for years. He's worked with a lot of the greats, Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin and Grayson Franke. He was nominated for an emmy for his work writing the 81st Academy Awards. He was a writer and producer on the HBO show looking but working with Steve Martin and Martin short on something like this, that's a whole new level.

John Hoffman (2:57)

Talk about intimidating, right? So a comedy legend. I bow before Steve Martin and have for my whole life.

Elizabeth Keener (3:06)

I. I'm still bowing.

Narrator/Host 1 (3:08)

Christmas time, 2019, John got a dinner invite to talk with some producers about a show idea that Steve Martin had. He ended up going back to Steve's apartment, an old pre war New York apartment not too different from the arconia.

John Hoffman (3:21)

And on the way up in the elevator, I was nervous thinking, okay, here I am going into Steve Martin's home and where he shares with his lovely wife and daughter Josie. And it was very storied apartment building. And I was nervous. And so luckily I got on the elevator, I thought with like two typical New York women I used to know and like kind of would see everywhere in New York which is this older women bundled up and with attitude and with character, they thought, okay, this is gonna make me feel more comfortable. So they got in the elevator and quickly I realized one of those women was Elaine May.

Kevin Lan (3:59)

Oh, no way.

John Hoffman (3:59)

Who is like one of my heroes of all time.

Elizabeth Keener (4:02)

Oh, this building must be. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

John Hoffman (4:06)

Yeah, it was. So that's the thing. And you see in the show, we sort of play off of that, like there are some very famous people who live in the building potentially too.

Kevin Lan (4:16)

Jackie Hoffman y spotted that one.

Narrator/Host 1 (4:23)

It turns out Steve Martin came up with the concept for the show some years ago, but he imagined it for three older actors.

John Hoffman (4:29)

Yes, he had it for a few years. He had originally conceived of it, I think, for three older actors, sort of New York actors, that he was at a party and he sort of recognized there were three very esteemed New York actors there. And he said, no, I could imagine an idea that I have fitting them. And then a. A little while later, Martin short said to him something about, you know, we're old actors.

Narrator/Host 1 (4:53)

The part of the show where the podcast comes in, though, that was from John. And he brought the idea to his first meeting with Steve Martin.

John Hoffman (5:00)

I think because the character you've conceived as an actor, and I think brilliantly, and Marty as a director, a Broadway director who have both seen better days and want a comeback of some kind or some life brought back into their life in that way, creatively, that a podcast could fulfill some bit of that as well as their own true crime instincts and interests.

Narrator/Host 1 (5:28)

But rather than just having three older folks trying to solve a crime, they Tapped into another demographic that loves a murder mystery. Past generations may get down on Agatha Christie novels, but young women, Young women love that gory murder stuff even more. And when John was in New York for that meeting with Steve Martin, he spent some time with a friend.

John Hoffman (5:48)

She's a young woman named Alexis Forte, who I love. And I hung out with her in New York when I was meeting with Steve, and I saw her light up to this idea, and I thought, there's something about women, particularly young women, who are so caught up in true crime and are driven to sort of consume it. And I was really interested in that aspect. And then I, I. She just had so many opinions about what a good true crime podcast would be. And I think we say in our, in our pilot, we have Mabel say, which again, kind of sprang from that conversation with my friend Alexis that day, which is that also, women get caught up in, you know, think there's a line in there. You know, it. You have to binge Dateline to find out not to how up on Dateline. And it's looking at a young woman living in New York City or any city and sort of understanding. It's very different walking through the city and what the feelings are and the feelings of self protection and resourcefulness you might need.

Kevin Lan (6:56)

Yeah, because even when she's walking down the street in the broad daylight, she's ogled by the guy at the protest.

Elizabeth Keener (7:01)

That's it.

Narrator/Host 1 (7:01)

Resourcefulness.

Elizabeth Keener (7:03)

That's exactly the good point. Because that's what women want to feel. They want to feel their strength and power. And it is. That was a great line about Dateline because you do see those. I mean, there's all those shows snapped and all those shows that make you realize that you have to be one of your own protectors and learn from

Kevin Lan (7:22)

their mistakes, bad fortune, or whatever happens.

John Hoffman (7:25)

Now, not all of the women like Mabel would choose a knitting needle, but

Kevin Lan (7:30)

maybe something to help her sleep.

Elizabeth Keener (7:33)

Yeah, let me help her sleep.

Kevin Lan (7:35)

She doesn't have the melatonin.

Elizabeth Keener (7:36)

Yeah, she's got her knitting gear. She can visualize. I wondered why she picked that knitting needle. Oh, are you trying to tell us something, John? Are you telling us something you have to watch? Exactly, Exactly.

Kevin Lan (7:49)

Exactly. First of all, are you a true crime fanatic or fan yourself?

John Hoffman (7:56)

No, no, no. And I hope that doesn't show up too, too much. Might every now and then, but it was not my forte. And, you know, I was nervous to write this show, especially with all the people around it, that so much about making happy.

Kevin Lan (8:13)

Nervous. Why?

John Hoffman (8:15)

Oh, I don't know, Legends, I think a Martin Short and the responsibility. Yeah, big investment. And I admired everybody so much on it that I wanted to sort of fulfill in a way that they liked. So that's a mission accomplished there. I feel really good about that. But on the other hand, it was. I think the thing that I got most, like, most comfortable about writing the show was that I realized that everything I'd ever written was a mystery. In that any story, you're going to be burying things and revealing things, revealing them later, you're going to be. You've been doing. I guess that made me more comfortable.

Narrator/Host 1 (8:54)

Steve Martin and Martin Short are a dream team, obviously, but how do you end up with someone like Selena Gomez starring alongside them?

John Hoffman (9:01)

One of the weirdo things about me is that I was on as an actor. I was on a Disney Channel television series many years ago, and. And so was Selena. So there was a little bit of a connection that way, and watched her much more successfully create a big career off of that than I did. But it was fascinating to sort of have that as a beginning point. And I understood it. You know, I had seen up close a young person go through that and watch them get skills that are really smart and solid. And that's how it felt with Selena when I met with her. And she's. She knows what she's doing. She's a very shrewd, lovely human being.

Elizabeth Keener (9:40)

I mean, she's very grounded. You can tell she's grounded. Wait, so was it your idea for her, or did she read?

John Hoffman (9:48)

Was an idea that came up as we were thinking of, you know, we knew we had this incredible legendary team. We knew we wanted someone unexpected in the trio opposite these two legendary comedic actors. And so once we realized that, we just thought, you know, the whole show is like classic meets modern in the way, you know, New York is shown. It's classic New York meets modern. New York wanted that to feel back and forth, you know, the Harvey boys and a true crime podcast.

Narrator/Host 1 (10:20)

Right.

Kevin Lan (10:21)

It's even how they're listening to the podcast. Steve Martin and Martin Short have like, a glass of wine type of thing and the map. And she's listening to her beats while doing something else, like very generational drawing on her iPad.

John Hoffman (10:34)

Yeah, that's what. That's what it felt like. We wanted to have that going almost through the entire series, that contrast of classic and modern. So anyway, we met with Selena on a Zoom, and she was so charming and lovely and perfect for the part. And she was also a true crime fanatic, which I did Not. I know. She and her mother, I guess, had gone to crime con.

Elizabeth Keener (11:02)

Oh, yes, yes.

John Hoffman (11:03)

Yeah, it's a whole thing. So I had no idea. But then she just said all the ways in which she related to the role and then the big question, which, you know, we just didn't know how this would mix within the three of them. And we sat down at a table read where we heard her read this part with the guys. And we were very close to shooting. And so it was a long time out before we actually heard what this mix would be. And once that read through was over, Dan and Steve and Marty and I all immediately hopped on the phone and said, my God, this is gonna work. You know, she's laser focused with her dry humor cutting through these guys. But then so many other textures to her too, which I think. And then on top of it, just. I think I'm gonna steal a line that Steve said somewhere recently, which I just thought was so funny. He said, you know, the camera, her. And he said, and the camera likes me. And the camera, the camera is just fine with Marty.

Kevin Lan (12:10)

It's okay. It's amicable. And that must have been intimidating for her for someone her age with these two comedy titans.

Elizabeth Keener (12:17)

And she kept. She kept her up.

Kevin Lan (12:18)

She kept up.

Elizabeth Keener (12:19)

Yeah, yeah, she was.

John Hoffman (12:20)

She really. And she admitted to me, and I've been talking about this in interviews too, that only after we shot all 10 episodes, that she was, she was nervous at the beginning. And of course I'm like, I'm sorry. Of course you were. We all were.

Narrator/Host 1 (12:35)

One thing that Selena Gomez brings to the show is a whole new dimension about old and new. It becomes about so much more than murder.

John Hoffman (12:43)

Yeah, well, it's funny, you know, it is a particular. It's a wide scope of tone that's going on in this show. But my theory on that is the tone of this show is New York.

Narrator/Host 1 (12:56)

Meaning?

John Hoffman (12:57)

Meaning if you walk a 10 block walk in New York, you're going to see something that makes you howl, laughing. You're going to see something that's so beautiful in architecture, maybe next to a modern thing growing building right next to it. You're going to see something that intrigues you and something maybe that scares you. Like, oh my God, what is that person up to? What's happening? Then you're going to happen upon Times Square and be in some. All of a sudden, some brassy musical like in the middle of the street promoting some Broadway show or something. It runs the gamut of. Even in 10 blocks, you'll get a whole Lot of shifts.

Elizabeth Keener (13:38)

Total shift, absolutely.

John Hoffman (13:39)

And that's what I wanted to feel. But the humanity underneath is what I really love. When I was writing the show with our fantastic room, our writers, it was, you know, it was during the pandemic.

Elizabeth Keener (13:57)

That's what we were going to ask you about that.

John Hoffman (13:59)

Yeah, yeah. So we're writing. We're writing at this time, never meeting each other in person, but also going through this fearful time as the whole world was, where it's like, okay, you know, you've got to be careful who you see, because that person could ultimately harm you. And that was a really weird thing to feel. And so the connection that happens in this story felt like actually right in the time when we were living and leaning into that humanity was also aided by something just silly. My comfort zone at the end of every night in the writers room was to go home and watch what Hulu actually had put on, which was all seven seasons of the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Elizabeth Keener (14:44)

Oh, my God, look at that. That's it. Brilliant.

John Hoffman (14:47)

And I watched two episodes a night, and I watched all seven seasons. And I would come into the writer's room because at the core of that comedy was a very lovely humanity in big, broad strokes of characters that you were indelible. And I felt like this had the. Had this sort of template that would allow something along those same lines. Underneath it all, it's a story about three very lonely people. And I think if we're really honest about, you know, New York City, I think you'll find more people that relate to that, because you can be in one of these apartment buildings and live a very isolated life with millions of people all around you all the time, and you can find your own little way of sort of isolating and finding your rhythms and patterns of your day, and you get stuck in them and you don't maybe know the person next door. And so that idea was really interesting. Where they are at a place in their lives is interesting. And all of them find this sort of kinship around the true crime story that they're really interested in listening to. But more than that, they find sort of enough trust that they can share with each other the ways in which they're vulnerable.

Kevin Lan (16:10)

And then, like, just getting into the plot parts of it. I was curious, when you first started mapping out the episodes, did you know it was going to be 10 episodes? Was that the plan?

John Hoffman (16:20)

Yeah, we got to say. We got to say we think it's 10 episodes. And they were like, great. I don't know if they would have said if we said 12 or 13 or 8, whether that would have been the right same answer. But they just said great. And we got to sort of claim

Kevin Lan (16:36)

that that's nice, very nice.

John Hoffman (16:41)

And it's a good number. It's a really good number, especially for this show because Steve's one thing he said was very important to him at the very, very beginning of all of this was that with, with each season of the show that we answer who did it by the end of it, that we not leave it ambiguous, that we not be play games and sort

Kevin Lan (17:06)

of like be coy.

John Hoffman (17:08)

So we give you a satisfying answer. And so that made it an interesting process in the writings room, which this was a. Not your typical comedy to write. And it. And being a mystery that we knew was going to have to satisfy these true crime people who love these things, we knew we were going to have to craft a mystery that is, you know, so we peopled the writers room with some really good mystery writers like my friend Stephen Markley, and then go backwards. So we knew that we had to have the answer. We sorted out the answer and then we really crafted the whole season from 10 to 1.

Kevin Lan (17:48)

So you kind of went backwards from where you knew how it would resolve itself and then kind of went back from there.

John Hoffman (17:54)

Yeah, yeah. Which took a long time before we actually dove into actually making the scripts because we were actually. You can't start at 10.

Elizabeth Keener (18:03)

Right.

John Hoffman (18:03)

But. But the actual plan and, and then twisting ourselves toward the end goal.

Elizabeth Keener (18:10)

And did the actors, did the actors know who done it? Not at the end. They.

Narrator/Host 1 (18:14)

They knew.

Elizabeth Keener (18:15)

They didn't know. It's as you go along. Did they like script to script to script?

Kevin Lan (18:18)

Not all of them.

John Hoffman (18:20)

Not all of them. And it was even more satisfying on set when, you know, the crew didn't know.

Elizabeth Keener (18:24)

Oh, I love that.

John Hoffman (18:26)

So there was, there were people. When we finally got down to the last episode, there were people who'd been on the show working on it. Steve and Marty and Selena stand ins, who were just fantastic people. But I'll never forget walking on set after that last script dropped and they came over to me looking shell shocked

Elizabeth Keener (18:53)

and they had no idea.

John Hoffman (18:58)

And I'm like, what? And I'm like, I thought everybody knew that. They're like, no, we didn't know because I'm like, but we're working on it. No one told us.

Elizabeth Keener (19:07)

That is so great. I love that. Yeah. So, you know, I look at the colors. I'm like, are the colors. Do those mean, do you know?

John Hoffman (19:15)

I love that she had that big

Kevin Lan (19:17)

Yellowish red beats headphones. And the big yellow coat.

Elizabeth Keener (19:22)

He had, the purple.

Kevin Lan (19:23)

It really stands out.

Elizabeth Keener (19:24)

So we were.

John Hoffman (19:25)

Okay, let me tell you about that real quickly because that's our costume designer, Dana Kovarrubius. And Dana and I had this talk at the very early on about Mabel's character. And so, yes, I am very color oriented and specific about these things. And so I wanted to share some of my impulses that way. But with Dana was like, Dana, I don't know why, but Mabel is. I've got this color in my mind, which is this sort of sunflower, marigold, deep, like yellow.

Kevin Lan (19:55)

It's a very unique color.

John Hoffman (19:56)

Right. And so I said, I don't know wherein. I had written and directed this episode. And Jane Fonda has this moment at the end of the episode where she simply walks across the street, and it's a strut and it's a power walk. The episode actually culminates, it's called the Crosswalk. And she's taking her sweet time crossing the street because she's earned it at the age she's at. And so I knew with the costume designer on that, I was like, it's gotta be an iconic look. So she came up with. And I said, maybe it's yellow. And she said, no, I think it's pink. And I think I have the suit. And she had this pink suit that was just a knockout on Jane Fonda. She had that in mind when I was thinking of Mabel's first walk and what she looked like. And so Dana found that coat. And then she came to me even better with, like, this whole sort of description and meaning behind Marigold. The color and how it connected and all the ways it connected were ways that made perfect sense for the character. So if you watch through the season, like, each of those characters have their color waves that they stay in.

Elizabeth Keener (21:13)

Okay, so we need to ask you, you know, everybody listening wants to know, possibly if you will give us some.

Kevin Lan (21:22)

A clue, a tidbit, something to run

Elizabeth Keener (21:25)

with you could pantomime, something to keep in mind. They wouldn't know. So we won't tell anyone. We won't. No, we won't tell. Mum's the word or Marigold.

John Hoffman (21:34)

It is the first. The end of episode one is a hopeful. I mean, in the promotion of the show, you're always wondering, do people have a sense or anything like that? But hopefully there's a bit of a jaw dropper moment at the end of episode one. And in that moment, the series opens up. And hopefully at the end of every episode Upcoming, that same thing will have a similar feeling over and over all the way through to the end of the show. So just when you think, you know, you have to, like, go, oh, my God, maybe I don't. So with the moment that happens at the end of episode one, and I'd be very careful with words not to give so many spoilers, the world opens up a little bit as to. If it's a show about connection, then there are secrets that all of our characters have that are presented in episode one and may not be fully as they seem to be. And their connections could go deeper and more specifically that in ways that will open up stories that could go back as far as 10 years that connect to today that create a bigger, more dimensional story. And in season one particularly, Mabel story is. Is one to watch.

Elizabeth Keener (23:11)

Oh, my God. This is exciting. Okay, more layers. Oh, wait. KK did it.

Narrator/Host 1 (23:16)

Shut up.

Kevin Lan (23:17)

Don't tell anyone.

Elizabeth Keener (23:17)

I'm sorry. Spoiler alert. Oh, my God. I love that. I love what you just said because I am thinking my brain is going like. It has like one of those little.

Narrator/Host 1 (23:26)

Was it the little mice or hamster

Elizabeth Keener (23:28)

wheel in my head?

Kevin Lan (23:29)

Don't over exert yourself.

Elizabeth Keener (23:30)

Thank you very much. That's amazing. John, thank you so much. This was. What a great interview.

Kevin Lan (23:36)

Yes. Thank you so much for joining us

Elizabeth Keener (23:38)

and a great show. Everybody on it.

Kevin Lan (23:40)

One quick more. One last question. Are there red herrings in there we should be wary of right away?

John Hoffman (23:48)

Oh, yeah, we throw it all in. I will tell you that. You know, one more little bit of a thing. Some of the answers you get to the end of episode one in almost immediately in episode two may or may not be the case. And that also includes all three of them, but particularly Charles, too. Steve's character and what you learn about him in one, how it matches up with what you learn about in two. So there's lots of secrets going on.

Kevin Lan (24:24)

It sounds like lots of mystery ahead.

Elizabeth Keener (24:26)

Yeah. Thank you so much. Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait to watch one again right now. That was phenomenal. What a guy. He was great.

Kevin Lan (24:44)

I can't believe he put up with you.

Elizabeth Keener (24:46)

Come on. You put up with me all this time.

Narrator/Host 1 (24:48)

I mean, somebody else will eventually.

Elizabeth Keener (24:51)

I was so really excited to talk to John and that just fulfilled everything I could think of, really. He was just answered all.

Kevin Lan (24:58)

It was a good jumping off point for this series.

Elizabeth Keener (25:00)

He gave us great. A great clue.

Kevin Lan (25:02)

There's a lot to think.

Elizabeth Keener (25:03)

A lot to think about. Okay, so now I just want to. You came up with this great, great, like, fun little thing to do.

Kevin Lan (25:11)

Yeah, it is great.

Elizabeth Keener (25:12)

Yeah. So you want to tell the listeners about it?

Kevin Lan (25:15)

So each week, Keener and I are going to put in an envelope who we think, as of that week, who the murderer is. We seal it in an envelope. Mine's in an envelope from my dentist office that had an estimate for a filling. I had to get replaced.

Elizabeth Keener (25:33)

Fantastic.

Kevin Lan (25:33)

And mine's not important.

Elizabeth Keener (25:35)

Mine is in a. Just a regular. That is just a plain, plain envelope. But it did have the peel I paid extra for. I recycle.

Kevin Lan (25:43)

This is, like, green, so.

Narrator/Host 1 (25:44)

Oh, this isn't.

Kevin Lan (25:45)

It just wasted a tree. So we're going to trade envelopes.

Narrator/Host 1 (25:48)

Okay.

Elizabeth Keener (25:48)

Yes, we're going to trade envelopes. And then. Do you want to. You want me to do. I'll do yours first.

Kevin Lan (25:52)

Okay.

Elizabeth Keener (25:53)

Okay, let's see. Drum roll. No, no. Oh, no, stop. Really? That's. That sounds like a bad fan.

Narrator/Host 1 (26:04)

Okay.

Kevin Lan (26:04)

It loosens my filling.

Elizabeth Keener (26:05)

KK Pick, Week one. Mabel, Which I say blame, Right? I call her blame Mabel.

Narrator/Host 1 (26:11)

Excellent.

Elizabeth Keener (26:12)

Excellent. Look, it's under Steven. Says your name on there. Boy. Cheeky.

Narrator/Host 1 (26:15)

Cheeky Kevin Lawn.

Kevin Lan (26:17)

Okay, so we'll keep these, and we can see how wrong we were.

Elizabeth Keener (26:20)

Yeah, we're.

Kevin Lan (26:21)

See how our success rate in solving mysteries is 0.0%.

Elizabeth Keener (26:26)

0.00.

Kevin Lan (26:27)

We have no skills to speak of. No skills for detective solving.

Elizabeth Keener (26:31)

All those Scooby Doo. Come on.

Narrator/Host 1 (26:32)

We got that.

Elizabeth Keener (26:33)

Yeah, in our backpack. All right. Okay.

Narrator/Host 1 (26:36)

So.

Kevin Lan (26:36)

All right, I'm gonna open yours.

Elizabeth Keener (26:39)

Geez, you ripped my. What do you think? Your carnac? Yes, that's old. Old. Old.

Kevin Lan (26:44)

Post it. And is there anything in here?

Elizabeth Keener (26:47)

No, it is blank. Because I'm not stupid. I don't know yet. I mean, I could say blank.

Kevin Lan (26:54)

Post it.

Elizabeth Keener (26:54)

I could say. I could say Mabel blame. But I'm telling you.

Kevin Lan (26:57)

But you didn't. You didn't say anybody.

Elizabeth Keener (26:59)

And I'll tell you why I didn't. Didn't. And I thought about Mabel. Because I'm not a dummy. I'm waiting for the next episode. I will tell you right now. Yet I think that's wrong. Because you know what they said the one clue they gave was in the original podcast that they were listening to. Was that. Oh, no, that's too obvious. That's too obvious. It's not her. Because that's too obvious. So they're giving us that clue. Hello. You put it right up there. KK my.

Kevin Lan (27:22)

A blank. Post it. Wasting more paper.

Elizabeth Keener (27:24)

It's like my stairs below. All right, so ready?

Kevin Lan (27:27)

There it goes. Yeah, there goes your.

Elizabeth Keener (27:30)

So you got Mabel. I did zero. So I'm not wrong. You're going to be wrong, and I'll be wrong.

Kevin Lan (27:35)

Well, of course you're going to be wrong.

Elizabeth Keener (27:37)

All right, so this is exciting. So was there.

Kevin Lan (27:39)

Yes, because I still have Selena Gomez's fake Zoom account that I created, and I may have sent invitations to other people associated with the show who I think we can trick to get on.

Elizabeth Keener (27:52)

Oh, we're gonna trick him, but good. And I, you know, I'm shocked that it worked because you end it with an S, Gomez without the C. So I don't know how that works.

Kevin Lan (27:59)

It's all in the details.

Elizabeth Keener (28:00)

Oh, my God. Okay, so. And it might be an executive producer, it might be a writer, or it might even be the dead guy.

Kevin Lan (28:09)

Could be the dead guy. Pre dead guy, post dead guy.

Narrator/Host 1 (28:12)

Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Keener (28:12)

No, hopefully he's alive when we talk to him.

Kevin Lan (28:14)

Yeah, that would be helpful.

Elizabeth Keener (28:15)

That would be really helpful. I mean, you're dead right now, but shoot.

Kevin Lan (28:17)

Dead inside.

Elizabeth Keener (28:18)

Inside. That's what I meant.

Kevin Lan (28:20)

Yeah, that's right. Well, that was fun. Thanks for listening to our first episode of Only Murders in the Pod, the fan podcast for Hulu's original series, Only Murders in the Building. If you liked it, which. What's not to like? Make sure to share with your friends, rate it, and subscribe.

Elizabeth Keener (28:46)

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. The show is hosted by Elizabeth Keener, me and Kevin lan.

Kevin Lan (28:52)

That's me.

Elizabeth Keener (28:53)

Produced by Ryan Tillotson and William Sterling. Associate producer is Stephen Markley, music by Kyle Merritt, and big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Ari Abache, and the entire Hulu team.

Kevin Lan (29:05)

See you again next week from Keener's Closet.

Elizabeth Keener (29:08)

Yeah, minus the moths.

John Hoffman (29:11)

Sam.