S1 E6: To Protect and Serve

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast — S1 E6: “To Protect and Serve”

Date: September 22, 2021
Host: Hulu / Michael Cyril Creighton
Guests: Writers Madeline George and Kim Rosenstock
Episode Focus: Behind the scenes of Episode 6, themes of friendship and loneliness, writing process insights, and new story developments

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Episode Overview

In this installment of the official companion podcast, hosts Elizabeth Keener and Kevin Lon take listeners behind the scenes of “To Protect and Serve,” Episode 6 of Only Murders in the Building. They’re joined by the episode’s writers, Madeline George and Kim Rosenstock, for a lively discussion that explores how the episode was crafted, the balance of comedy and emotion, character arcs, and the ongoing whodunit speculation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breakdown of Episode 6

• Status of the Police Investigation ([00:28]–[02:19])

  • The podcast kicks off with the hosts considering whether the police might be covering up Tim Kono’s murder, after it’s revealed the toxicology report was never processed and his phone was never sent for analysis.
  • Quote: “Is there someone in the police trying to cover this up?” — Kevin Lon ([01:29])

• The Green Ring Mystery ([02:24]–[02:49])

  • The hosts discuss the significance of Zoe’s green ring, missing after the night she died. Did someone steal it?

• Suspects and Red Herrings ([02:49]–[03:29])

  • The possibility that Teddy (Nathan Lane’s character), who sponsors the podcast and has a suspicious side business, could be the elusive “Angel” is raised.
  • Quote: “Our prime sponsor has become our prime suspect.” — Kevin Lon ([03:05])

• Tim Kono’s Phone as a Key Evidence ([03:56]–[04:28])

  • Mabel receives Tim’s phone, adding a new potential trove of evidence—but they need to crack the code to unlock it.

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2. Insights from the Writers’ Room

• Creative Pairing & Playwright Backgrounds ([05:22]–[07:44])

  • Madeline George and Kim Rosenstock share their mutual admiration, playwright backgrounds, and how they were paired for this episode.
  • Quote: “I just couldn’t believe my good fortune... I got to learn at the feet of Kim Rosenstock, who is an extremely experienced and skillful comedy writer.” — Madeline George ([07:25])

• Remote Collaboration & Pandemic Writing ([09:10]–[10:21])

  • The duo wrote the script from different coasts (NY & LA) via late-night Google Docs and virtual meetings, juggling parenting and work in the height of the pandemic.
  • Quote: “I have had a four-year-old and no childcare... I would do a lot of my work between midnight and four am.” — Kim Rosenstock ([09:14])

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3. Balancing Comedy, Drama, and Mystery

• Finding the Tone ([11:08]–[12:11])

  • The writers highlight the challenge and iterative process of threading heartfelt moments into a comedic murder mystery.
  • Mabel’s family dinner was a key emotional anchor for the episode, showing her vulnerability.
  • Quote: “It kept needing to serve different purposes...a process of layering things in and recalibrating.” — Kim Rosenstock ([11:52])

• Diverse Writers’ Room Dynamics ([12:37]–[13:37])

  • The room blended backgrounds: classic comedians (Steve Martin & Martin Short), drama (This Is Us), and playwrights, leading to the show's signature tone.

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4. Character Deep-Dives

• Mabel’s Inner Life & Friendship Themes ([13:40]–[14:17]; [24:10]–[25:22])

  • Mabel’s backstory and emotional growth anchor the episode, especially her journey from isolation to belonging.
  • Quote: “[Mabel] actually now does have a real relationship...she hasn't had friends in a really long time.” — Kim Rosenstock ([24:56])
  • The ongoing theme of loneliness versus found family is traced throughout both this episode and the season.

• Detective Williams’ Perspective ([23:13]–[24:10])

  • The episode opens and closes with monologues from Detective Williams, shifting the narrative viewpoint.
  • Quote: “We were interested...in getting into the head of someone who, by trade, is an investigator, since our trio are passionate amateurs.” — Madeline George ([23:13])
  • Brings up the significance of seeing the wider impact of the investigation and the podcast.

• Jan the Sexy Bassoonist ([14:26]–[16:04])

  • Writers share the “New York” realism behind her character and the humor and beauty in having a bassoonist love interest.
  • Behind the scenes: Amy Ryan’s commitment to authentically handling the bassoon.

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5. Gut Milk: Iconic Gag and Creative Process

• Naming the Show’s Weird Beverage ([16:26]–[22:26])
  • Madeline George came up with “Gut Milk,” spending hours brainstorming disgusting-yet-lighthearted names.
  • Quote: “I just was like, what is the most disgusting and also light-hearted name of a fermented energy drink that could possibly exist?” — Madeline George ([21:43])
  • Listeners learn the origin was NOT the “Got Milk?” campaign, surprising the writers themselves.

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6. Working with Iconic Leads (& Selena Gomez)

• Childhood Fandom and First Impressions ([17:15]–[19:47])

  • Both Kim and Madeline reminisce about their childhoods watching Three Amigos and Roxanne, and the surreal experience of working (virtually) with Martin Short and Steve Martin.

• Selena Gomez’s Performance ([19:47]–[20:42])

  • Praise for Selena’s blend of wit and sincerity: “She’s got a lot of heart ... but she’s also super funny and she’s not just a straight man opposite them” — Madeline George ([19:55])

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7. Themes: Morality of True-Crime and Personal Stakes

• Exploring Moral Quandaries ([26:37]–[28:36])

  • The episode wrestles with the moral implications of making true crime entertainment at the expense of real people’s trauma.
  • Quote: “Should we continue before [Mabel] comes back? ... Is it right to keep exploiting this tragedy that happened?” — Kim Rosenstock ([27:00])
  • The writers almost added more NYPD procedural details but opted to “humanize” over going too deep into dry detail.

• Blurring Lines Between Amateur & Professional Investigation ([28:44]–[29:12])

  • The show highlights how amateurs can sometimes achieve what professionals (bound by rules and bureaucracy) can’t. The writers emphasize the value of “wild west” sleuthing.

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8. Loaded Details, Red Herrings & Hidden Clues

• The Monologue about Greek Coins ([30:10]–[30:43])

  • Teddy’s family lore story was contributed by showrunner John Hoffman; not everything is a direct clue, but “everything is significant.”
  • Quote: “Everything is significant. Sounds like a clue, right?” — Kevin Lon ([30:46])

• Hints from the Writers ([31:00]–[31:33])

  • Teasing listeners, the writers reveal: “The clue to whodunit has been said in a lie already on your podcast.” — Madeline George ([31:00])
  • Quote: “Everything is connected to everything. I mean, there isn’t anything in the show that isn’t.” — Kim Rosenstock ([31:24])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Our prime sponsor has become our prime suspect.” — Kevin Lon ([03:05])
• “I just couldn’t believe my good fortune ... I got to learn at the feet of Kim Rosenstock…” — Madeline George ([07:25])
• “This episode went through many, many drafts ... it kept needing to serve different purposes.” — Kim Rosenstock ([11:15]–[11:52])
• “She [Selena Gomez]’s got a lot of heart and ... she’s not just a straight man opposite them.” — Madeline George ([19:55])
• “The clue to who done it has been said in a lie already on your podcast.” — Madeline George ([31:00])

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Whodunit Summit: Hosts’ Episode 6 Suspect Picks ([31:52]–[33:05])

• Kevin’s pick: Oscar’s father, the Super

• Elizabeth’s pick: Theo (Teddy’s son)

  • Reasoning: “Only a few people knew about the podcast when Oliver got the note saying, ‘stop the podcast or die,’ and he was one of them.” — Elizabeth Keener ([32:48])
  • Humorous conclusion: “Do you feel it in your gut? — In my gut milk!” ([33:00])

• Listener Theories:

  • Anna: Thinks the killer is Teddy (Nathan Lane), possibly hiring Ursula for the job.
  • Jennifer: Also suspects Teddy, noting the “Demas” (deli name) connection to St. Demas, patron saint of repentant thieves.

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Key Timestamps

• 00:28–03:29: Red herrings, prime suspects, and podcast plot speculation
• 05:22–07:44: Writers’ backgrounds and collaboration story
• 09:10–10:21: Pandemic writing and late-night Google Docs saga
• 11:08–14:17: Layering dramatic and comedic tones, writing the dinner table scene
• 16:26–22:26: “Gut Milk” origins and naming process
• 23:13–25:22: Exploring Detective Williams’ perspective and Mabel’s loneliness
• 26:37–29:12: Moral stakes and procedural vs. amateur detective work
• 30:10–31:33: Greek coin monologue, “everything is significant” hint
• 31:52–33:05: Whodunit Summit and listener theories

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Conclusion

This episode is a treasure trove for fans who love peeling back the layers on the show’s creation. The writers’ warmth and camaraderie mirror the heartfelt yet sharply witty tone of Only Murders in the Building itself. Through stories of creative collaboration, behind-the-scenes trivia (“Gut Milk!”), and playful speculation about suspects and clues, listeners get a richer sense of both the show’s complexity and its central themes: found family, loneliness, and the blurred lines between comedy and tragedy.

Final Thought:
As the writers tease, clues are everywhere—sometimes in lies, sometimes in laughs, and always, everything is connected.

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Transcript

[Kim Rosenstock]

Straw Hut Media.

[Madeline George]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Where did you come up with.

[Kevin Lon]

How'd you come up with those numbers? Is it. Does it mean something?

[Madeline George]

Well, I was reading the Talmud, and on page 3004. No, I'm just kidding. I think we wanted him.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I feel like they believed you for a second. No, I am for saying there's no

[Madeline George]

numerical or numerological significance. We just wanted him to up his support. We wanted him to be like, I'm all in. I'm all in.

[Kevin Lon]

Foreign. Welcome to episode six of Only Murders in the Pod. Who are we? We're just your average true crime addicts. A little like Charles, Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters of the Hulu original series. Only murders in the building. We're looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the show. Our goal is can we or can you solve this crime before all is revealed in the season finale? As of now, we've seen the first six episodes, so listeners, beware. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button, get caught up, and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you. Okay, so we are on episode six. To protect and serve. What do we know? So we know more information about the police investigation or the lack thereof. The toxicology report was never submitted and the phone was never sent to tech. Is there someone in the police trying to cover this up?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ooh, that's a good. That's a good question. I don't know.

[Madeline George]

Or did.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Let's see. Did she not send them in? Did she forget to send them in? Or she sent the toxicology in, but nobody did anything correct about it?

[Kevin Lon]

It wasn't. Right. Processed.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. And. And now the whole thing is closed, right? The case was closed.

[Kevin Lon]

She closed the case.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. That's interesting. I don't know. I think it also just leads to her being able to give the phone to our three, you know, and who.

[Kevin Lon]

Who. What were the higher ups and the police that stopped it from being processed? And why? That's what we got to keep an eye out on.

[Elizabeth Keener]

There's a lot. A lot to think about.

[Kevin Lon]

There is a lot.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Don't hurt your brain.

[Kevin Lon]

It's not our strong suit.

[Elizabeth Keener]

True. Okay, so the ring. We know that the ring that Tim was trying to find was that big green ring that Zoe was wearing the night she died on New Year's Eve. We also know she wasn't wearing the ring after she fell to her death or when she fell. Someone grabbed whatever it was. It was lost in. In the train.

[Kevin Lon]

She had it on Side in the apartment, and she did not have it on when she was on the pavement.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. So someone took it.

[Kevin Lon]

So we know that Teddy, that's the Nathan Lane character, has a side business called Angel, Inc. And we know that the jewelry guy that Tim was trying to take down was called Angel. Do we think Teddy is Angel? Because, remember, our prime sponsor has become our prime suspect.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Now, think of this. You know, we keep getting thrown red herrings.

[Kevin Lon]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So I don't know, but that is a very, you know, that's. How is that going to be too coincidental?

[Kevin Lon]

And is he giving them money for the podcast to see what track they're on and can he sabotage them? Yeah. Ooh.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, you know, I'm going to go back to. For one second and talk about. Remember when there were only four subscribers or something?

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Teddy was one of the guys who knew there was going to a podcast. And then all of a sudden,

[Kevin Lon]

Oliver

[Elizabeth Keener]

gets that note on his door that says, stop the podcast.

[Kevin Lon]

And his dog.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And his.

[Madeline George]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lon]

Was poisoned. And Teddy lives in the building.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. So Teddy does live in the building. Good.

[Kevin Lon]

Fear Their prime suspect.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right now, he's their prime suspect. So the detective anonymously sent Mabel Tim Kono's phone. What do we think is on there?

[Kevin Lon]

Well, first they have to figure out the code. So how are they going to do that?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, you know, we got to figure out this. It's. It could be four. It could to four numbers. Eight numbers. Could be anything.

[Kevin Lon]

Six numbers. Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Six numbers. Could be up to eight. Yes.

[Kevin Lon]

All different variations of numbers.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Variations of numbers.

[Kevin Lon]

But, you know, what is on. There's got to be text messages. There's got. Of course. Who is he texting and who is he talking to right before he died?

[Elizabeth Keener]

There's a lot of things on that phone that we need to know about.

[Kevin Lon]

One thing we've come to realize over the last few weeks of talking to the people behind Only Murders in the Building is that this was a writers room full of wildly talented people with wildly different creative backgrounds. This week, we got a chance to talk to Madeline George and Kim Rosenstock, the writers of Episode six. So just so the both of you know, we have only seen up to episode six, so we don't know anything that happens after that. So we have just watched your episode in the last few days.

[Madeline George]

So that's where we just, like, bailed right after we were done. So we have no idea.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You're not even gonna watch the rest?

[Madeline George]

You're like.

[Kim Rosenstock]

We think of it as the season ending. Okay.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So we can Ask. How did you guys end up in the writing room? We know it was a zoom room. And have you worked together before? How did you two get together to work on an episode?

[Madeline George]

I mean, we were paired together by John Hoffman, the showrunner, but I was a massive fan of Kim Rose in stock before I ever got into this writer's room because we're both playwrights, and I had already seen and loved her work for the stage for years.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I, similarly, was a huge. Were we in the same season at Playwrights Horizons? Were we actually in the same. We were in. I think I had a musical.

[Madeline George]

Yeah, I remember sitting in the audience for your musical.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Same. And I remember sitting. Madela had a play called. What is it? The Watson. Am I Gonna mess It Up?

[Madeline George]

I don't know. Yeah. The Curious Case of the Watson Intelligence.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yes. It was amazing. An amaz play. And I was also. There were things in it that I was like.

[Madeline George]

My gosh. Like, I've.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Like. I think you had a Billy Joel reference. I think you had an Applebee's. Is there an Applebee's joke or something?

[Madeline George]

Oh, it's a runner. It's an Applebee's running gag.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yeah, it was my, like.

[Madeline George]

I was like.

[Kim Rosenstock]

This is like my, like, soulmate. Favorite writer I've ever. Like. I just like all these things that were in there. I was like, this is. I mean, she's also, like, a genius, brilliant writer, but they're also all these, like, kind of like. Like, weird references that I was very.

[Kevin Lon]

Madeline's play, the Curious Case of the Watson Intelligence, was actually a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in Drama in 2014. In 2016, she won the prestigious Whiting Award for Drama. And she was a founding member of the collective 13 Playwrights, which has won an Obie. So, yeah, she's kind of a big deal.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yeah. But I was a huge. And I was so excited when we were in the room and I saw Madeline was there, because I was like, oh, my God. I always. I always wanted to be friends with her. And then I begged John Hoffman into Paramount. I kind of. I was so happy, though.

[Madeline George]

I was so excited.

[Kim Rosenstock]

And I. Yeah, it was. It was very. But, yeah, we'd never written together before or since.

[Madeline George]

Well, I mean, only. Yeah. But I. But also, I just couldn't believe my good fortune because I. Although I've been a playwright for a long time, I don't have that much TV experience, and so I got to sort of, like, learn at the feet of Kim Rosenstock, who is an extremely experienced and skillful Comedy writer. And it was kind of an amazing opportunity. Yeah, it was.

[Kevin Lon]

Kim Rosenstock is a playwright herself, but also a writer and producer on great shows like New Girl with Zooey Deschanel, the Gone Too soon, Netflix hit Glow, and ABC's Single Parents. She was also the original inspiration for Mabel's terrible bangs, the one she describes to Oscar while they sit on the bed in her childhood bedroom.

[Madeline George]

I actually.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Well, I can't believe I'm going to tell. I had. My mom created. We called it just the Curl, but she took a big round brush and I had. Oh, my God, I had bangs, guys. I just realized I did have bangs.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She blocked it out.

[Madeline George]

She took. I did.

[Kim Rosenstock]

She took a big round brush and would just blow. Just keep the brush in and dry it. And then she would take the brush out and it would just be like a curler shaped piece of hair. And she'd be like, leave it. That's exactly what it's supposed to look like. And that is how I spent probably the first 14 years of my life.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God. Supercuts.

[Kevin Lon]

Kind of like a Peppermint Patty kind of thing. Are you guys in New York? Are you in la? Are you in the same city?

[Kim Rosenstock]

That's a great question.

[Madeline George]

Madeleine, you want to take that? I'm actually, I'm based in New York. I've lived in New York for about 25, 26 years. And the miracle for me of the fact that this was a Zoom room is that I could participate even though I was in a different time zone.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I'm in Los Angeles. Not an interesting answer at all.

[Kevin Lon]

Madeline and Kim had to coordinate writing episode six together from opposite sides of the country and in two different time zones.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Should I tell them the Google backstory?

[Kevin Lon]

Yes.

[Kim Rosenstock]

So I, I like exclusive. I mean, we're in the pandemic. Like, you know, we still. I guess we are in the pandemic. But this was like. It was like June. It was like really only a few months in. I'm realizing now, like really appreciating that. And I, I have. I had four year old and no child care, just like. And so I would do a lot of my work like, like between like midnight and like 4am and I would be in this Google Doc that we shared. I just remember one night I was like, all right. It was like three. I was like writing and I just saw like.

[Madeline George]

What did you write?

[Kim Rosenstock]

Like, I just saw large, like. What are you doing awake? Another person typing into the doc. So amazing. What are you doing here?

[Elizabeth Keener]

All your. Yeah, all the times Change. Oh, hilarious.

[Kim Rosenstock]

What if it wasn't Madeline? I would be scared.

[Kevin Lon]

Then it is time to go to bed, Madeline.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I think I learned there is an early. That was 7am for Madeline, which I think Madeline's like, up writing. I imagine you just get up and you're just. All your ideas are just spilling out.

[Madeline George]

Yeah, Yeah. I really. I'm like a caricature of productive person. No, I'm just kidding. But I love being on LA time because I can live like a whole other life before the room even starts.

[Kevin Lon]

Madeline wasn't the only New Yorker in the writers room. And even the LA based writers were able to travel a bit while they were working. Something that was only possible because everything was remote on zoom.

[Kim Rosenstock]

One of the most exciting things when you're with the same people every day is like when someone has a new background. Where are you?

[Kevin Lon]

A few weeks back, when we spoke with writer Kristen Newman, she described the show as having a Frankenstein of tones. The writers are always trying to balance mystery with comedy and romance and drama. This episode is so packed full of jokes, but it's also the first time we get a glimpse at Mabel's inner life. It's truly a balancing act.

[Kim Rosenstock]

It's actually really hard because I think often we would. This episode went through. I think I could say this right?

[Madeline George]

This is like.

[Kim Rosenstock]

It went through many, many drafts. And I think for that reason it was kind of like in the middle of the season. And we knew it had to do with a lot of things, but we also were often, like. We were always shifting. We were kind of figuring things out as we were going. And so it kept needing to serve different purposes.

[Madeline George]

It's hard.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I think we would often we would write a version or we had some versions that we just thought were like, hilarious, but it was like, it needs like heart. It needs more like grounding. And then we would go back and we'd be like, is this a drama?

[Madeline George]

What is?

[Kim Rosenstock]

You know? And I think a lot of the episodes were like. It was kind of like. It kind of felt like, you know, we would. It happened kind of over time. It would be a process of layering things in and kind of recalibrating. Is that accurate? Am I. Is that. Yeah, I think that's.

[Madeline George]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think that that scene around the dinner table at Mabel's childhood home, which it changed a lot over the course of the rewriting. But I think for John, the showrunner, like, it was sort of like a. Like a beating heart of the episode. And he always Kind of at this

[Kevin Lon]

point, right in the middle of her beautiful thought, we lost Madeline. So we let Kim elaborate on the diversity of the room until we got reconnected.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I also think it comes from the fact that there were a lot of different kinds of writers in the room. And it stems from even, like, you know, I think you have John, who's from, like, comedy and, like. But also can do, like, more dramatic things so beautifully, but also comedy. And then you have Steve and Marty, who are like, such just legendary, giant comedians. And then you have Dan, who does this is Us, which is such a, like, emotional show, and you're putting them all together, and it is kind of like. It's like, what will happen? What if. What will happen if we blend all these. They don't necessarily feel like they would go together. And I think that is why you see this blend of a lot of different things coming out. And it's exciting to see that it works. You know, I think it's satisfying when it's like, oh, you can have a show that is all of these things. And there are other shows with a lot of those elements, too. But it was exciting to put this one together and to see it. To see all of those things kind of find their rhythm. I think I am making no sense.

[Madeline George]

So great.

[Kim Rosenstock]

The beating heart. No, you were saying that for John, that it was the mother was the beating heart of this episode, I think.

[Madeline George]

Yeah. Just the idea of seeing. Of giving us a chance to see a little bit about, like, where is Mabel from? Because we. Because she has a kind of woman of mystery quality, and she's a little untethered, you know, at the beginning when we first meet her, and that's, you know, one of her sort of superpowers, in a way. But then we also hear that she has this past, but her past goes back further even than what we learn in episode two.

[Kevin Lon]

Another thing that Kristin Newman had mentioned before was that Kim and Madeline were the writers. We should ask about Amy Ryan's character, Jan, the sexy bassoonist.

[Madeline George]

Yeah, I knew a sexy bassoon player. Yeah. I mean, we were. You know, we were thinking of all the different people that could live in this building. You know, I've lived in New York a long time, and, like, one of the great joys of living in New York is that even in a place where you might think the rent is high or you might think you would have to spend a lot to live there, there's often, like, an extremely diverse array of humankind living in the building together. And then you know, there's lots of classical musicians who live on the Upper west side. It's like a famous thing. And I think, you know, sometimes classical musicians are wild and interesting people with lots of different capacity than you might think while they're wearing their formal wear and, like, playing their woodwind.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Madeline, did you play the bassoon or do you play a woodwind?

[Madeline George]

Absolutely not. No, no. I wasn't even in band in elementary

[Kevin Lon]

school, so there's still a lot more to learn about the bassoon and the wild world of bassoon players. Lucky for us, we've got the only female bassoonist in the LA Philharmonic Orchestra scheduled for a chat next week.

[Madeline George]

Yeah. What is a bassoon?

[Kevin Lon]

What's that?

[Elizabeth Keener]

We were curious.

[Madeline George]

I know what it sounds like. It sounds beautiful, right? I mean, that's the other thing. So, like, on the one hand, the word bassoon is funny, and the bassoon is a kind of niche or maligned instrument. Unfairly, I think, but also it's beautiful. And I think we envisioned what that sound could sound like.

[Kevin Lon]

And back when we talked to actress Amy Ryan about her experience learning how to look natural with a bassoon, she told us about all the work she put into figuring out how to hold it properly, how to breathe, and what exactly to do with her hands.

[Madeline George]

She's very sultry with it, I have to say. She really. That sort of downshot where she's got the one shoulder sweater and she's going to town on it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I feel like the real thing that Madeline needs credit for here, that also is in our episode, is gut milk, because that was her invention.

[Kevin Lon]

We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, more about Madeline. Gut milk, plus the complex inner life of Detective Williams of the nypd. Welcome back. Today we're talking to Madeline George and Kim Rosenstock, the writers of episode 6 of Only Murders in the Building. Both of them had experienced the comedic genius of Steve Martin and Martin Short at an early age. For Kim, it came in the form of a VHS tape of Three Amigos.

[Kim Rosenstock]

My first experience was Three Amigos as a child, and I watched. It was one of the few we had on vhs. We only had a couple tapes in my house, and those were the movies we watched again and again and again. I watched it over and over and over again, and I. I was little, so I thought. I really thought infamous meant more famous than famous. Like the jokes. Some of the jokes I was, like, taking as fact, and I just.

[Madeline George]

They're.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I mean, it was crazy to see them on Zoom. That Was one of the like most wild experiences. And I will also say I think it's a safe space for me to sit. Martin Short was like my first celebrity crush and I couldn't have. I was a kid again, but I was like, I'm gonna marry him. I would watch Andre Amigos. So something happened when he appeared on Zoom that just took me. I was like, like, I was like, you know, I couldn't believe I was on a Zoom with Steve Martin and Martin Short. But I also.

[Madeline George]

Yeah, I mean, I can't top that. I mean this is the lamest possible answer, but like I was obsessed with the movie Roxanne when I was a kid. Like I would walk to the video store and take it out over, over and over again. I wonder what there is about that version of the Cyrano story that a 12 year old girl is like most keyed into. But it's a super strong romantic comedy. I mean, it holds up.

[Kim Rosenstock]

That's a great movie.

[Kevin Lon]

Three Amigos came out in 1986, making it 35 years old. Roxanne came out the following year in 1987. Both Steve Martin and Martin Short and have been making us laugh for a really long time. But even though the show had its fair share of old age jokes, the iconic duo is as energetic as ever.

[Madeline George]

They may be old, older folks, but they're also like, they're like great geniuses of our time. They're capable of much, much more than most young people.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yeah, I think I. If you mean like physical stuff, like I, Yeah, I think I thought of them as. I think of them as forever three amigos. Like I think that is the energy they still have. And yeah, I don't, I think, yeah, I feel like they would run laps around me, both of them. I have no doubt they have a

[Madeline George]

great sense of humor about themselves too, I think. Right. I mean they have like professionally and then also it seems like personally and I think they know how to deploy their immense charms in a self deprecating way.

[Kevin Lon]

What's more, Selena Gomez, though she hadn't even been born when these two classics came out, she definitely holds her own alongside them.

[Madeline George]

She's got a lot of heart and she's got a lot of soul on screen, but she's also super funny and she's not just a straight man opposite them, although she is also an excellent straight man opposite them.

[Kevin Lon]

She has good timing.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I like when they're making fun of her and I try to remember but I can't like quote a specific moment. But those are some of the like, I like when they give it back to her also. And it's like a real friendship, you know, I think that's what we were trying to get across. This is three friends.

[Madeline George]

Yes.

[Kim Rosenstock]

One of them is much younger than the other two, but, like, they are.

[Madeline George]

They click.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yeah.

[Madeline George]

And they also. They split in, you know, in interesting other ways too. Like, it's interesting to see Mabel and Oliver together. And it's interesting to see Mabel and Charles together. And they all have their own individual, like, two person dynamics as well as that trio.

[Kevin Lon]

This is the episode where Charles and Oliver finally learn more about Mabel's backstory. Even though she comes off as sarcastic and aloof, her mom reveals how hard life has been for her since her friend died nine years earlier.

[Kim Rosenstock]

It's interesting, we think, because, like, what we're talking about here is like, depression. And that's not funny necessarily, like, but it's a comedy. And so they're kind of learning the depth of her depression. But in our show, they do that over gut milk. I think that's what great about the show.

[Kevin Lon]

Gut milk opens up people. Gut milk, the weird health beverage they were coerced into buying by the case from Ursula, the building manager, in exchange for Tim Kono's file. And that came from the mind of Madeline George.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I feel like that was one of those days. We were pitching on a lot of names for and like, Right. Or did you just immediately say gut milk? I actually can't.

[Madeline George]

What I know I like. After the room was over, I spent hours coming up with different names because I just felt like it's the kind of thing where if it's fun to say and it makes you laugh, then you'll want it in the show. I don't know. I just was like, what is the most disgusting and also light hearted name of a fermented energy drink that could

[Kevin Lon]

possibly exist that's really good for your abs.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's really good for your abs.

[Kevin Lon]

And a little buzz.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And a little buzz. Got Milk, but gut milk. So that must be. As I said, I asked you, I'm like, did it come from Got milk to gut milk?

[Kim Rosenstock]

That's not why you called it that? Because of Got Milk?

[Madeline George]

No, I'm not kidding. I guess I didn't realize why it's funny until this moment.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I'm learning so much from this podcast.

[Kevin Lon]

Thank you. This episode is titled To Protect and Serve, and it opens and closes with monologues from Detective Williams, played by Divine Joy Randolph. We're all born alone. Unless you're a Twin or something. But twins creep me the fuck out. And don't even get me started on triplets or quadruplets, whatever the fuck they're called. I don't know. Cause that's not my point. My point is we're born alone, spend most of our time alone, then we all go out alone.

[Madeline George]

Well, we were interested. I mean, it seemed like a real opportunity to be able to sort of get into the head of somebody who was, you know, by trade, an investigator, since our trio are passionate amateurs. But also, we like the idea of the. Seeing the podcast kind of move out into the world a little bit and seeing other people be touched by it. And the kind of. Like, in a way, it's a coincidence that her partner would be listening to our guy's podcast and that that would open up a conversation between the two of them. But then it also makes sense because that a person who would be into true crime podcasts would also maybe find the detective kind of hot. So, yeah, so we were sort of interested in her inner life, but also in the. The lived life of that character that we otherwise only see, you know, intersect for plot.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yeah, we also. I think in this episode, we were excited to kind of test this friendship. Like that idea that Mabel leaves at one point. And it's this idea that actually these were three loners who actually now do have a real relationship with each other. And seeing that idea that they don't, there is a lot of loneliness in that show. There's a theme that runs throughout the whole season, whole series, really, of all these people in these boxes in this big building who start bumping into each other, you know, because of this crime that happens. And I think one of the things that I really always found moving was that moment where Madeline.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Madeline on the brain.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Yeah, no, where Mabel. Mabel comes back at the end and is like, you guys are my. I think I actually have friends. Like, you know, she hasn't had friends in a really long time, and I think. And Detective Williams is kind of framing that idea in the episode, but I think it runs. It runs in all the stories.

[Kevin Lon]

And Mabel did say she likes to be in a pack, so she found a pack.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She found another pack.

[Kim Rosenstock]

So, yeah, exactly.

[Madeline George]

Her geriatric pack.

[Kevin Lon]

We get a chance to hear about the professional side of investigating crimes with Detective Williams, but only briefly, and she ends up helping. But she isn't the one directly solving the crime. That's the job of our do it yourself Detectives Charles, Oliver and Mabel.

[Madeline George]

I mean, like, I get very. I can really nerd out on, like, jargon or professional lingo or, you know, for me, like, the daily habits of the sort of bureaucracy of a system like the NYPD is really interesting. None of those things have a place in this show. So, like, in the end, really, we weren't gonna, like, go full, as you say, procedural in the middle of what is otherwise a kind of, like, heartful and also rompy murder mystery, like, comedy. But I think we were, like, conscious of the fact that, I mean, this, you know, this is also the episode where Oliver and Charles come to understand, oh, there's a story at the heart of this true, quote, unquote story. And the cops are a part of that. They're involved in real crime. And giving us a chance to kind of humanize that a little bit was important.

[Kim Rosenstock]

But you had the great line that I think made it in, which was, when is it Steve who says, and he's legitimately realizing it once they realized Mabel's role in all of this.

[Kevin Lon]

And he's like, every true crime story is actually true for someone. And this is just occurring to you.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I guess it feels personal now. Like it's somebody's real story.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kim Rosenstock]

You know, because it's so easy for us to consume it as entertainment, and that is how it is presented. It's presented alongside fiction, and it's easy. And it often is more entertaining than fiction because it's real, but it's easy to forget it's real people. The real people. And especially so they have that. They have that great moral quandary, which I think they. I like that Marty's like, is it really an issue? Like, sorry, I'm Oliver. But, like, it's that idea that, should we continue before she comes back? And they're like, I mean, is it right to keep exploiting this. This tragedy that happened? Like, you know, is this. Or to even work with her. I think their mom, the Mabel's mom, raises that question of, like, what are you. You're, like, making her relive your. This trauma, like, for a podcast. Like, you know, like, is it really worth it? And to really just, like, actually look at, like, the moral repercussions of what you're doing. I think that's the first time they

[Madeline George]

really have to grapple with that. I mean, I think we thought we wondered if there might be more of a sort of like. Like, internacy and storyline that could happen with the nypd, but then it just felt like we were gonna pull threads that we weren't gonna also. I mean, there's only so much you can do in half an hour. So. But we did like the idea that she starts out being like, you know, this stuff is bullshit. And then she comes around by the end and she's like, you know what? Maybe there's a way that I could. That they can help me and I can help them. You know what I mean? And that's the sort of last beat of the episode.

[Kevin Lon]

The episode asks a lot of questions about the morality of making true crime podcasts. And in the end, they take an optimistic view.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Well, that's a different kind of investigation that actually can have an impact and

[Madeline George]

help the real crime.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Like, the real. They can do things that she can't do. They can, because they have. I mean, they have a. They're just kind of, like, blissfully ignorant about some things, but also they don't have the responsibilities that she has. They don't have the rules that she has. They have no rules. They're in the Wild west, like, so, like, they actually are. They have access to things that she doesn't, which and can maybe make a huge difference.

[Kevin Lon]

Madeline was able to draw on her own favorite characters in the female detective genre, like Helen Mirren in Prime Suspect. But both Madeline and Kim had a lot of fun getting into the head of Detective Williams.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I was just like, oh, my God. And we had, like, this character. And like, we went. It was like, this is amazing. Like, what could we do? And it's like, we have half an hour. She's not the main character, but it is. Once you start to like having that character there, it's like you want. It felt like she deserved a story of her own, and hopefully. And like, it was fun to me, but we could have. You could write a whole series about that character.

[Madeline George]

You basically have. I mean, we know a lot about her that will never make it to the screen.

[Kevin Lon]

And Teddy also tells a story about his grandmother coming over from Greece and the coins. Is that something that is going to play into the story later on also?

[Elizabeth Keener]

I want to know about the story because that was a great story. It was like a three minute. Right. It was like a three minute monologue kind of things.

[Kim Rosenstock]

That story is purely from John Hoffman, our showrunner, and it is. I think it's something that he. Yeah, I think he was excited to write that. Yeah. But we can't. I don't think we can take credit for that one.

[Madeline George]

No, we can't take credit for the specifics of it, but everything in this episode somehow, you know, plays into things that come. That come later.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Madeline George]

In terms of what? In terms of whether or not it's going to be significant. Everything is.

[Kevin Lon]

Everything is significant. Sounds like a clue, right? Well, their actual clues were very interesting, and we'd love some help from you, our listeners, to figure out what they really mean. So listen carefully.

[Madeline George]

The clue to who done it has been said in a lie already on your podcast. Said in a. I'm also gonna say.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, God.

[Kim Rosenstock]

Something we discussed here on this podcast is a clue tied to the person who.

[Madeline George]

Yeah, but also, everything is connected to everything. I mean, there isn't anything in the show that isn't.

[Kim Rosenstock]

I get that. What I said was nothing. We've talked about something here.

[Kevin Lon]

Will it be something we ended up cutting out of the interview or something that we left in for? Now we just don't know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, now, it's one of your favorite times.

[Kevin Lon]

It's my favorite part of every episode.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's the whodunit summit.

[Kevin Lon]

This is the part of the episode where Keener and I each put in an envelope and seal it. Who we think is the killer, as of the episode we just watched. So we're up to episode six now. So as of episode six, this is who I think is the killer.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. And you've done some obvious, and you've done some bonehead, and you've done some nothings. Well, welcome to my world.

[Kevin Lon]

Tear the envelope, please.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oscar's father, the super.

[Kevin Lon]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay. Would you like to do mine now?

[Kevin Lon]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay. Rip that puppy.

[Kevin Lon]

Okay.

[Madeline George]

Open.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You need some work on that.

[Kevin Lon]

You put Teddy's son, Theo? Yes. So that's Nathan Lane's son?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, I gave him the name this time.

[Kevin Lon]

Pardon me.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Pardon me. Theo. I kept saying Nathan Lane's son, Teddy's son. Yes. I still believe it's him.

[Kevin Lon]

Why?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Because like I said before, only a few people knew about the podcast when he had. When Oliver got the note saying, stop the podcast or die or whatever, and he was one of them.

[Kevin Lon]

Do you feel it in your gut?

[Elizabeth Keener]

In my gut milk.

[Kevin Lon]

Is it the gut milk?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. I feel in that 13%.

[Kevin Lon]

Maybe you have a buzz.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I'm feeling that 13% alcohol right now only. Murders in the Pot is a production of Straw Hut Media. The show is hosted by Elizabeth Keener, me and Kevin Lon, produced by Ryan Tillotson, Maggie Bowles, and William Sterling. Associate producer is Stephen Markley, music by Kyle Merritt, and big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Ari Abishe, and the entire Hulu Team.

[Kevin Lon]

Hey, Keener.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Kevin Lon]

I heard we got some fan mail.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, I wouldn't call it fan Mail. I think it's.

[Kevin Lon]

I'm going to call it that, people.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You call it that, But I think it's. Well, we'll just do a couple of them, but one is Anna. Thank you so much. And Jennifer. Thank you so much. So we asked people to send some emails and their thoughts of who the murderer might be, their thoughts about the show, why, and all those things. So go ahead.

[Kevin Lon]

Anna had a very interesting idea. She thinks the killer is Teddy, Nathan Lane's character. She thinks that he hired Ursula. Do you remember Ursula? They called her the sea witch. She was down in the basement with the packages. Yes. And speaking of gut milk, she has all those side hustles. Y. So she thinks one of the side hustles could be to kill Tim Kona.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I like that guess because that runs in the family, because, you know, my guess has been the same for three or four episodes, so. Good one, Anna. Thank you so much.

[Kevin Lon]

And Jennifer also thinks it's Teddy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

What?

[Kevin Lon]

Yes. And she has a theory. So Demas. That's the name of their deli. Teddy Demas. And San Dimas, which is a city here in California, which is Saint Demas, and Saint Demas is the patron saint of repentant thieves.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, gosh. We've got some great listeners. Right? Wow, that is such a good.

[Kevin Lon]

So we're gonna have to keep an eye on that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We're gonna keep on that because that was really a good. That's a good guess, isn't it? Yeah. The way she thought about it.

[Kevin Lon]

Some thought.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And they're thinking more than us.

[Kevin Lon]

I know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But thank you guys so much. Keep writing in.

[Kevin Lon]

Please do.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we love hearing from our fans. We do. Well, you call them fans. I call them listeners. But thank you. We'll call them that.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right. Thanks, guys.

[Kevin Lon]

Thanks for sending in your theories. We love reading them. Keep them coming. Send them to only murderers at strawhutmedia.

[Madeline George]

Com.