S1 E7: The Boy From 6B

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S1 E7: The Boy From 6B

Date: September 29, 2021
Host: Elizabeth Keener & Kevin Lance (KK)
Guests: Writers Ben Philippe & Stephen Markley, Actor James Caverly

---

Episode Overview

Episode 7 dives deep behind the scenes of Only Murders in the Building’s standout "The Boy From 6B." The hosts unravel the emotionally charged and stylistically daring installment, which pivots the show’s point of view to Theo—a deaf character—and reveals what happened to Zoe ten years ago. Alongside lively banter, the hosts and guests reflect on the unique production, writing process, and layered performances—especially that of James Caverly who plays Theo.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Big Revelations of Episode 7

• The episode unfolds the events of New Year's Eve a decade earlier, focusing on the tragedy involving Zoe, and how her fatal fall was a harrowing accident during a confrontation with Theo.
• Theo’s crush on Zoe and his role in the inadvertent fall are explored, with added depth given to his complex feelings and the consequences that ripple through the other characters’ lives.
• It’s revealed that Teddy and Theo are running a grave-robbing jewelry scheme, stealing from bodies at the funeral home.
  • Elizabeth: "The grave robbers. And there was a jar of teeth." (02:39)
  • Kevin: "Huge pearls...take it off of a dead body." (02:57)
• Teddy’s threats are highlighted—notably his intimidation of Tim Kono and Mabel to keep Theo’s secret safe.
• The episode culminates with Mabel and Oliver being kidnapped by Theo (04:10), escalating the tension heading into the season’s final episodes.

---

On Writing the Episode: Ben Philippe & Stephen Markley

Entering the Writers Room

• Both Ben and Steve were first-time TV writers, recruited for their strong narrative skills.
  • Ben: "The pitch had the words Steve Martin and murder mystery in New York City. So that felt like a pretty, you know, dreamy job..." (05:03)
  • Steve: "It was sort of a similar...like this is both Ben and I's first TV writing jobs ever. So we were both just sort of like thrown into the deep end..." (05:44)
• Their collaboration was likened to a child's playdate and an "odd couple" comedic dynamic.
  • Steve: "We're basically two kindergarteners who love playing in our own sandbox..." (07:57)
  • Ben: "...like that scene from Stepbrothers where they're just like, did we just become best friends?" (08:12)

Crafting a "High-Concept" Silent Episode

• The showrunner tasked them with writing a “high-concept” episode centered on a new POV (Theo—the show’s deaf character).
• Early drafts were wild and over-stuffed ("At some point we killed a horse" - Ben, 07:02), requiring much to be cut for tightness and tone.
• Writers leaned into "Hardy Boys" influences—lots of secret passageways, spying, and youthful intrigue.
  • Ben: "The Hardy Boys feeling was something we wanted to preserve..." (09:00)

---

Silence and Perspective: The Theo Episode

Visual and Narrative Choices

• The episode foregrounds Theo’s silence, using near-total absence of audible dialogue to immerse viewers.
• The decision to break the show’s usual narration style:
  • Steve: "He's a character who's suddenly going to turn to you and he's gonna give us this new perspective..." (09:56)
• The episode’s storytelling demands focus; viewers can’t "half-watch."
  • Ben: "...can we make this story interesting without sound? Especially since...we consume media, I think sometimes...like Mabel, like doing something else while something is playing in the background. And this episode sort of demands your attention." (12:04)

Casting & Authenticity

• James Caverly, who is deaf, describes his audition and authentic experience on set:
  • James: "I had interpreters there the whole time. On the set, the communication was not an issue. It was really wonderful...the director was wonderful. The writers were both so attentive and open minded and listened to me and wanted my opinions as a deaf actor..." (13:21)
• Nathan Lane and Olivia Rice (Teddy and Zoe) learned ASL for the show, coached by an ASL "dazzle" (Director of Artistic Sign Language).
  • James: "So if there was a mistake or just a slight adjustment...I was happy to give my input and help support the other two actors..." (23:03)

Lip Reading Realities

• James Caverly demystifies lip reading:
  • James: "...you really only catch possibly 30% of what the message really is through lip reading. It's really, really very hard. It's guesswork..." (20:55)

---

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On the emotional complexity of the rooftop scene:
  • Steve: "It is an unfortunate accident, but one which can definitely be interpreted as a crime." (16:59)
  • James: "Theo...he can't forget it. He becomes too burdened with it. You know, I am the person who is at fault." (17:30)
• On working with Nathan Lane:
  • James: "Oh, my, oh, my. I grew up watching Nathan...He is such a professional. He is such a wonderful man. And our father, son, rapport and relationship felt that we were really bouncing off of real energy." (27:32)
• On making Theo seem suspicious:
  • James: "Yes, of course...someone who carries that secret with you in oneself for 10 years...that does give off the persona, then I have a secret. Nobody needs to know. Right?" (30:10)

---

Crafting the Episode’s Unique Sound and Vision

• Director Shirin De Abbas aimed for tighter, more intimate shots to reflect a visually oriented deaf perspective.
  • James: "...all of the camera angles, I think, are tighter, are more intimate...to enhance the sense of vision in the moment." (31:21)
  • Steve: "All credit, really, to Shireen, the director of the episode. She did an amazing job. It just looks incredible..." (32:20)

---

Musical Motif: "Soliloquy" from Carousel

• The episode uses Rodgers and Hammerstein’s "Soliloquy" to underscore the fraught father-son relationship.
  • Ben: "...Teddy Demas loves the arts, no matter how sinister of a character he is...And John Hoffman knew the perfect song right away..." (25:28)
  • Lyrics highlighted as reflecting both hope and looming menace in Teddy’s relationship with Theo.

---

The Scrabble Scene: Silent Flirtation

• Charles and Jan’s wordplay transitions into sexual tension—with words like "hard" and "wet."
  • Ben: "I was channeling the characters...when it came time to pick those words...make things a little more romantic." (32:53)
  • Steve: "We toned it down a little." (33:22)

---

Behind-the-Scenes Fun

• "Vomit" in the emotional scene was mostly carrot juice and "it smelled really pretty good. Didn't smell bad at all." – James (19:03)
• Ben and Steve joke about their collaborative process, sometimes heated, always passionate.
  • Ben: "I remember viscerally hating this man..." (34:14)
  • Steve: "We're one of those couples we don't argue about anything serious. But it's like, if, you know, the milk was left out for 30 minutes too long, then we're gonna have at it for the rest of the day." (34:56)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:13 – 02:58: Recap of Episode 7’s events and key reveals
• 05:03 – 08:48: Ben Philippe & Stephen Markley on joining the writers room, process, and partnership
• 09:00 – 12:46: Creating the high-concept "deaf perspective" episode, inspiration, and execution
• 13:21 – 20:09: James Caverly discusses his experience as Theo, audition stories, and set anecdotes
• 22:48 – 23:55: Actors learning ASL, coaching, and authenticity on set
• 25:28 – 26:40: Integrating "Soliloquy" from Carousel as the episode's musical backbone
• 31:21 – 32:40: Visual approach and directing choices to capture deaf experience
• 32:53 – 33:52: The Scrabble scene's creation and subtext

---

Theories, Clues & Listener Engagement

• The writers drop a cryptic clue: "There's a line of dialogue in the first seven episodes, which is an anagram for the childhood hometown of the actor who plays the killer." (35:51)
• Listener theories are shared—a fun summing up of fan engagement and speculation, covering suspects from Teddy and Oscar’s dad to Mabel’s mother.
• On air, Keener and KK make their own whodunit guesses—with Teddy and Oscar’s dad as current picks. (37:00)

---

Notable Quotes

• James Caverly: "Lip reading is just a small part of communication and has so much to do with guesswork. It's like a murder mystery, right? You're looking for all the clues, you're trying to fill in all the gaps." (20:55)
• Ben Philippe: "I am very likely to spoil this season, next season, and even, like, future seasons, actually. So I’m gonna be very careful and say that Mabel is not a ghost." (35:13)
• Stephen Markley: "Ben hates when I get all high-minded and novelisty about things..." (11:13)
• Elizabeth Keener: "It really felt like we were in a Hardy Boy story. There are two secret doors, a lot of spying, binoculars, breaking and entering..." (08:48)

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of the podcast offers a fascinating and heartful look at one of Only Murders in the Building’s most innovative episodes. With candid writing room stories, an honest account of on-set experiences for a deaf actor, and an appreciation for silence and perspective, fans are treated to both behind-the-scenes delight and a deeper understanding of what makes "The Boy From 6B" so exceptional.

---

Transcript

[James Caverly]

Straw Hut Media.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

How did you choose the words that are there?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah. Were there. Were there words that didn't quite make it a little that you were hoping that even just one that we'd love to know that didn't quite make it on the board?

[Stephen Markley]

Thing about Ben Philippe is he is. He is hilarious, but sometimes his humor cannot make it on even, like Hulu. So some of those words I had to look up online in like, the Urban Dictionary, and we could not in good conscience put them on the Scrabble board.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Welcome to episode seven of Only Murders in the Pod. We're looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the Hulu original series, Only Murders in the Building. I'm your host, Elizabeth Keener, and with my co host and friend Kevin Lance, or KK as we call him, were trying to solve a mystery and get to the truth of what happened to Tim Kono. As of now, we've seen the first seven episodes. So listeners, beware. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button, get caught up and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

So, Keener, yes, we have watched episode 7 of Only Murders in the Building.

[James Caverly]

The.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

The boy from 6B is the title. So what do we know? We know what happened the night Zoe fell off the roof on New Year's Eve 10 years ago.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, we found that out. She had a fight with. It didn't start out as a fight. It was a conversation because she was friends with Theo. Theo. And they were up on the roof. And then it turned a little ugly. There was some pushing and shoving and slipping and slipping and accidental falling. I think it's accidental. We know that Theo had a crush on Zoe. So we know from this. Yes, they. He saw them inside. The looting, I guess. Right? They were looting.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes. He was in the secret passageway.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Passageway. Looking out. And she saw him. And I guess they developed a friendship. He had definitely had a big crush on her. And that's what we found out even more up on the. On the roof.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Exactly. And importantly, he also saw that she had that big, big emerald ring on, and he kind of let her get away with it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He definitely let her get away with it. I mean, that's how big his crush was. It was like, take anything you want. And she did. And she had that.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

And speaking of jewel robbers, in this episode, we also find out that Teddy and Theo are basically grave robbers. They're stealing jewelry from dead bodies at a funeral home.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, man. If it couldn't get more crazy. I just got nuts. The grave robbers. And there was a jar of teeth.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Of the gold teeth. Gold teeth and doubloons. The gold teeth. And also of everything. We literally watch them take a necklace.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

A huge thing of pearls.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Huge pearls. Take it off of a dead body.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

It seems like they put it into urns and that's how they kind of transfer it out of.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, okay. So we know that the ring Zoe was wearing belonged to Teddy. Yes. Because there was that elevator scene where she was flaunting the ring.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

She was doing sign language, and Teddy noticed it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Te.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

How could you not notice it, though?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so right after that, he told his son, get that ring back. Get it back. Yeah, big time.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

And we know that Teddy threatened Tim Kono and indirectly, Mabel in order to keep Theo a secret.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. And you know, the biggest thing for me to that is that Tim Kono was not a bad guy in that respect. He was trying to protect Mabel. He cared about her.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

At Oscar's expense. But. Yes, you're correct.

[Elizabeth Keener]

At Oscar's expense. He was pushed into a corner. But did he understand. This is the question. But understand what they were arguing about since he doesn't speak sign language. That's right, because he just sees them. He doesn't know what's happening.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

He doesn't know the context.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He doesn't know any context. He doesn't even know if Theo were like, if he knew her from before. He didn't know anything. He didn't know anything.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

That's a good point.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It really is a good point. Right. Last but not least, now we know that Oliver and Mabel have been kidnapped by Theo and are in the back of a van. So I think that's it. We're up to. Up to the end of episode seven. Episode seven.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

So we have eight, nine, and ten to go.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ooh, you are good.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

I know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Similar to a lot of the team in the only Murders room, the two writers of episode seven, Ben Philippe and Steven Markley, have found their way into the writers room over the course of just a couple of days. Ben is an award winning young adult novelist and hilarious writer. His most recent book of essays, sure I'll Be youe Black Friend, came out in April, months before he was officially hired onto the show. He had met with producer Jess Rosenthal and heard about an exciting opportunity to write for tv.

[Ben Philippe]

The pitch had the words Steve Martin and murder mystery in New York City. So that felt like a pretty, you know, dreamy job just to happen on my lap. And then I met With John, I loved him. We talked and geeked out for hours about New York City and how exhausting and amazing it was to live here. And yeah, I think we talked on a Thursday and by Monday or Tuesday the room was starting.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Stephen Markley is the best selling writer of the novel Ohio, which is set to be adapted for HBO by Sam Levinson, the showrunner for Euphoria. The book was widely praised and Stephen King said you could almost call it the Grapes of Wrath of the opioid crisis.

[Stephen Markley]

Yeah, so Dan Fogelman had read my novel Ohi and it's kind of a murder mystery set in the Rust Belt, a lot of opioids. The wars are Iraq and Afghanistan, the recession. So he thought perfect Murder mystery in Manhattan with Steve Martin and Martin Short. This guy, Hardy Boys Edge, interviewed on like a Thursday and was hired the next Monday. So it was sort of a similar. Like this is both Ben and I's first TV writing jobs ever. So we were both just sort of like thrown into the deep end of the pool together, which was kind of fun.

[Ben Philippe]

I was gonna mention Steve Markley's golden retriever energy that first week of work. He was the person that was just like every 30 minutes would be like, Guys, we're writing TV. How amazing is this? I wanna beat each and every one of you and just like socializing like a happy puppy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

How did you guys end up together working on an episode?

[Ben Philippe]

Oh yeah.

[Stephen Markley]

So we had had the idea floating around for a high concept episode and our showrunner, John Hoffman, who's an amazing guy, was just like, hey Mark Lee, why don't you and Ben Philippe, first time writers, just come up with this high concept thing, write it together. Even though neither of you has ever worked with another person before. And I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm sure everything will be fine. You won't kill each other. It'll all work out great. And it did.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Wow.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yeah.

[Ben Philippe]

You're two pig headed novelists with big ideas who don't really know what you're doing or have any sense of TV budgets. Just write together for two weeks. At some point we killed a horse. That was an early, early draft of the episode, but that was a big part of it.

[Stephen Markley]

The cutting room floor of our, of our draft of the script. I mean there were trap doors and you know, I think all kinds of stuff that we just learned. We had to turn a draft in under 57,000 pages. And that became the reason so much of that was mandates.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, but now you got a coffin

[Ben Philippe]

with a Trap door in it.

[Stephen Markley]

Yes, that's correct.

[Ben Philippe]

It was just a little bit all over.

[James Caverly]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Like Madeline George and Kim Rosenstock, the writers of episode six that we talked to last week, Ben and Steve are also at opposite ends of the country. Ben is in New York and Steve is in Los Angeles. The time difference wasn't an issue for them, though.

[Stephen Markley]

We're basically two kindergarteners who love playing in our own sandbox. And then suddenly we were sat in a sandbox together and we were having so much fun playing with each other's trucks. And then suddenly we're fighting over whose truck is whose. And then we're like, okay, we're back to best friends. It was like that kind of energy.

[Ben Philippe]

It was sort of like that scene whenever people ask me about my writing relationship with Stephen Markley. It was like that scene from Stepbrothers where they're just like, did we just become best friends? I was like, yeah. And for us, it was writing this episode together. Just, I think we both get really, really invested in the characters and in our ideas. So even with the time difference, I would go to bed having written like a thousand word email to Mark Lee. I would wake up, I already had a thousand word email back from him that he had sent at the same time. We just got so invested into the minutia of writing this episode.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It really felt like we were in a Hardy Boy story. There are two secret doors, a lot of spying binoculars, breaking and entering, peepholes and stealthy exits.

[Ben Philippe]

The writers were breaking the entire season. That Hardy Boys feeling was something we wanted to preserve first. It's introduced with the kids in the flashbacks doing something very cute, invasive, but cute. And, you know, in present time, it's our trio sort of solving this mystery. So I think we all, all of us always had a sense of wanting to play up the Hardy Boys aspect of it. And because this is the episode where we get not all the answers, but a lot of the answers, a lot of them just like, boiled up to the surface. And we got to see our characters, actually. They're no longer shy about breaking into people's homes. They're just, like, leaning into the investigation and finding the answers we've all been waiting for.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This episode is called the boy from 6B, and it spends most of its time with Theo, Teddy's son, who is deaf. At one point, Theo addresses the camera directly and says, people in this city talk too fucking much.

[Stephen Markley]

We've been having these characters sort of, you know, they're always speaking, we're always getting a Narrator. Right. And it felt like for Theo, you know, that was a directorial choice, but it felt like for Theo, you know, he is. He's a character who's suddenly going to turn to you and he's gonna give us this new perspective on what's been happening the entire season, this absolutely new character. We haven't really met him before. We don't know what's in his head. And suddenly he's going to give sort of the thesis to the audience.

[Ben Philippe]

I don't know.

[Stephen Markley]

Ben, what did you remember from that?

[Ben Philippe]

I think something about the podcast sort of world we're playing in revolves around chatty people, people that you can assume that from Detective Williams to our main trio, they just sit in front of a mic and it all pours out. And Theo is a very private character. I think that's just his nature. He just doesn't want to share all his business right away. And the idea that we were introduced to this strange new character that we've. That has basically all the answers we've been looking for, he's not just going to give them to you. And we felt like that was an intriguing entry point into this episode.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

And tied into that, was Theo always conceived as a deaf character?

[Stephen Markley]

Yeah, he was. And I think like to speak to sort of thematic concerns. Ben hates when I get all like, high minded and novelisty about things. But like I was thinking, a lot about podcasting is about the cacophony of modern life. It's like you have these buds in your ears. You're walking around all day, you're listening on 1.75 speed. Somebody's probably listening on 2 point speed right now to this. And you're just inundated with information and entertainment. And I read this quote by this poet named Jean Arp who said, soon silence will have passed into legends. Man has turned his back on silence. Day after day, he invents machines and devices that increase noise and distract humanity from the essence of life, contemplation, meditation. And I sort of thought about that in regards to how Theo would view the world and all this sort of madness going on around him.

[Ben Philippe]

New York City's really freaking loud. It is loud all the time. We work on zoom. And every 15 minutes I have to mute myself because there's a fire truck like right outside my window. And the idea of having a death lead allowed us to shut out the silence for the entire episode. And it was kind of a fun writerly challenge too, to see, like, can we make this story interesting without sound? Especially since you Know, when we consume media, I think sometimes I'll speak for myself. We consume it like Mabel, like doing something else while something is playing in the background. And this episode sort of demands your attention.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We invited James Caverly, the actor who plays Theo, onto the podcast with the help of an interpreter, Candace Broker Penn, who was also on set during the filming of the show. Hi.

[James Caverly]

Joey is saying hello to everybody.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Hello.

[James Caverly]

I find it so ironic you're having a deaf person on your podcast. My friends are not going to be able to listen in.

[Elizabeth Keener]

For those of you who would like to watch a video of this episode, we'll have a link in the show. Notes. James is a working actor who is deaf in an industry with mostly hearing people. So we asked him what his experience has been like both in his career and on this project.

[James Caverly]

That's a really deep question. I have worked a lot. I have tended to do most of my work in theater on stage, and there are deaf people around that I can interact with. But the television world, my experience there is everybody's hearing. I'm the only one deaf and I'm grateful for that. On the set, I had interpreters there the whole time. On the set, the communication was not an issue. It was really wonderful. But my interpreters I really felt for because of course with COVID we have to wear masks, but they also had to wear a face shield on top of the mask. And I know that podcasts can't see us right now because you're listening, but when we sign in American Sign Language, so much happens on the face with grammar and expression. And then they couldn't touch their faces because they had this big face shield on plus their mask. And you know, that was not a big deal on the set, but we had to deal with it. I would say overall, I had a fantastic team. The director was wonderful. The writers were both so attentive and open minded and listened to me and wanted my opinions as a deaf actor, wanted to make sure my needs were met on set. Everybody was concerned about that. It's really a positive experience.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Casting of the show happened at the peak of Pre vaccine Covid, the 2020 holiday season. Everything was in full shutdown mode.

[James Caverly]

My agent sent me some information. There was an audition happening and I heard the title Only Murders in the Building. I thought, what a weird ass title, you know, but sure, I'll go for that. So I made it through the second round. Everything happened on Zoom and I did my audition and a couple weeks later I got the role. You know, very exciting, a terrific opportunity.

[Elizabeth Keener]

When his agent told him he landed the part of Theo, James was down in Florida for the holidays visiting family.

[James Caverly]

Everybody was really aware of COVID and they didn't want me to be bringing anything to New York. I thought, oh, my God, I am in the worst fucking state right now. Florida. All the cases are rising there. I don't want to get sick. I want people to stop. Stay home, please. Wear masks. Open your windows. I was washing my hands 50 times a day because I was so paranoid. I didn't want to get sick because I had this role. And, you know, it was just. It turned out my vacation wasn't very relaxing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The scenes he read for his auditions were both from episode seven. The first was a scene between Theo and Teddy.

[James Caverly]

And then the second scene they gave me again, that's the. Oh, that was the scene when I accidentally pushed Zoe off the roof. And that was the second audition, the second scene that I had to do. And I didn't think anything of it. I thought at the time, okay, this is a role. I don't know where it's going. I don't know what the story is. Okay, I accidentally pushed somebody off the roof.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. She slipped. No context.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Those are big scenes to have to do.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's in this episode that we finally get to see what happened on the night Zoe died. But it's not immediately clear whose fault her death really is. Here's writer Steve Markley.

[Stephen Markley]

We interpret it as a. You know, Zoe and Theo were two kids. Theo cared deeply for her. Zoe, coming from sort of the socioeconomic place, she did had a cruel reaction to Theo's love for her. And in the heat of the moment, a disagreement ensued. And, like, the element of it is that it is an unfortunate accident, but one which can definitely be interpreted as a crime.

[James Caverly]

And I would say I feel it was a complete accident. I think Theo reached out to grab Zoe. And Zoe, as she pulled away from him, accidentally backed up and fell. I think that was a complete accident. But for Theo, I think he also really did love Zoe. I think he was head over heels for her. So in that kind of a moment, I think the shock of it causes him to run down to find his father, tell him, and then the father covers this whole thing up, which starts this layer of, I don't know, guilt. But I think in. In my mind, as Theo, as the actor playing Theo, I know it was an accident. But Theo, then, speaking for Theo, he can't forget it. He becomes too burdened with it. You know, I am the person who is at Fault.

[Elizabeth Keener]

When Theo gets home after his traumatic encounter with Zoe, he runs in, collapses to the floor and vomits. Even though it's a very serious and emotional moment, we can't help but wonder about the behind the scenes details. What was that vomit really made of? And how many takes did they have to do it to get it right? So we asked James.

[James Caverly]

Okay, from what I remember, I think it was a combination of juice, carrot juice. And what else was it? Oh, I think mostly, mainly it was carrot juice. I'm not remembering the other ingredients, but I think the amount of time that I had to throw up, I think we probably had to do three takes on that. And it was really strange because it really got to me. You know, it got down into my shirt, it got down through my pants. I was walking around with this tube that was, you know, really long that they had to, you know, dress me with. And so when I threw up, they would pump it and it would just hum all through that tube and, you know, a little bit flattered on my shirt. But it smelled really pretty good. Didn't smell bad at all. So, yeah, I wouldn't have, you know, I could lick some of the stuff off my shirt.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

That's not so bad.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, the truth about lip reading. Plus how the writers crafted the complex relationship between Theo and his father, Teddy. Welcome back. Today we're joined by the writers of episode seven, Stephen Markley and Ben Philippe, and actor James Caverly who plays Theo and is speaking with us through his interpreter Candace. Before the break, we learned that both Steve and Ben were first time TV writers when they joined the only Murders Room. We also learned about James experience as an actor who was deaf in a hearing industry. In this episode, Theo spends a lot of time secretly getting information by reading the lips of the residents of the Arconia.

[James Caverly]

It's a well known fact that lip reading, if you're trying to lip read someone else, you really only catch possibly 30% of what the message really is through lip reading. It's really, really very hard. It's guesswork. Some people aren't moving their lips. Some people, you know, get food stuck in their teeth. Some people turn away from you and start talking, you know, to someone else. So what I always say is that lip reading is just a small part of communication and has so much to do with guesswork. It's like a murder mystery, right? You're looking for all the clues, you're trying to fill in all the gaps, trying to figure out what the message is. You're trying to look for that keyword or several keywords that can help you fill in all the blanks. And it depends on context. It depends on who you're with, where you are, everything about that, and doing all of that work in less than two seconds. That is what is so hard and is the hard part of lip reading is it's the guesswork. And so many times you guess completely wrong and you're down on the wrong track, or sometimes you guess and it's right. Mostly, I would say, for me, my go to for lip reading is to smile and nod my head like I'm understanding and going, oh, yeah, that's right. That's good. Ooh, really? Is that what you think? Yeah, I do that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Anyway, neither Nathan Lane, who plays Teddy, nor Olivia Rhys, who plays Zoe, knew sign language before the show, and so they had a lot to learn before rehearsing and filming their scenes with Theo. Here's Steve Markley again.

[Stephen Markley]

They had a coach to teach them enough ASL to perform the parts, and they did a great job. And then obviously, James was on set sort of guiding everybody through the process. And he is such an incredible actor, and he's so good in this.

[James Caverly]

I understand what it's like to have no experience in a foreign language. So this one is asl, and they only had a few months to practice, and then they're meeting a real live deaf person. And it's a little bit like having the deer in the headlights. No, you're trying to use a foreign language. And I did want to make both of them feel really comfortable and comfortable with me because we had an ASL dazzle, a master, and unfortunately, he couldn't be on the set with them, so he had done the teaching. But I was on set. And so if there was a mistake or just a slight adjustment that needed to be made, I was happy to give my input and help support the other two actors in that role.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You might have heard the word dazzle just now, which we learned is an acronym that stands for Director of Artistic Sign Language. And on only Murders, they had Douglas Ridloff, the executive director behind the very cool ASL slam, as the sign language

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

coach in the show. Zoe surprisingly knows asl, American Sign Language. Have you ever been surprised by an unexpected person knowing sign language?

[James Caverly]

Yes, of course. Several times. You know, I'll go into a restaurant or a bar, and all of a sudden I'm. Someone comes up to me and they know sign and they're starting to talk to me. It hasn't happened to me. Oh, no, it did. It did happen to me. Last week I was. I went to a bar with some deaf friends, and we bumped into a bartender whose parents were actually deaf and started taking our order. And it was really surprising. So it's actually, it happens quite often. It's not that unusual.

[Ben Smith]

I wonder what he'll think of me. I guess he'll call me the old man. I guess he'll think I can lick every other feller's father. Well, I can.

[Elizabeth Keener]

There's a song that bookends this episode. It's called Soliloquy, and it's from the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical Carousel. Here's writer Ben Phillipe.

[Ben Philippe]

I think early on, Mark Lee and I had the idea that Teddy Demas loves the arts, no matter how sinister of a character he is. Otherwise, like, he shares that passion with Oliver and he really wants to share this song with his son. This one song that's really important to him. And that horrifying scene at the top of the episode was pitched by another writer in the room, Ben Smith. And we just all loved it. We all got chills while he was pitching it. And John Hoffman knew the perfect song right away, and it was like, oh, no, this has to be the song. And to be honest, I think for Mark Lee and I, it was still kind of a tbd. We're not big musicals, people. We're like, I don't know, we'll find something. Maybe let it go from Frozen. And then Joel was just like, no, no, no, this has to be the song. Like, let's just look up the lyrics right now. And it just felt like it just perfectly encapsulated the relationship between father and son.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here are some of the lyrics of that song. I will see that he is named after me. I will My boy Bill, he'll be tall and tough as a tree Will Bill like a tree he'll grow with his head held high and his feet planted firm on the ground and you won't see nobody dare to try to boss or toss him around and his

[Ben Smith]

feet planted firm on the ground and you won't see nobody dare to try to boss him or toss him around no pot bellied baggie. I fully boss him around.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's a strange feeling watching Nathan Lane, who normally plays really non threatening and comedic roles, conjure up something really dark. Here's Steve Markley.

[Stephen Markley]

Yeah, but Nathan really, like stepped it up a notch. I mean, it's just. It's so interesting to watch the words you write suddenly Performed. And you're not thinking much about it, at least for us. You know, we never had anything we'd written actually, like make it to screen. So watching Nathan get frightening for that role was. Was pretty interesting. I really admire him for that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

For James, working so closely with Nathan Lane was an unforgettable experience.

[James Caverly]

Oh, my, oh, my. I grew up watching Nathan, you know, in film and Birdcage, you know, so the producers, you know, he was. He is such a fantastic actor. So then it was, you know, when they told me, when they cast me, that you look like you could be Nathan Lane's son. And Nathan himself said that to me, you look like you could be my son. Coming from him, something like that, and then having the opportunity to work together, he is such a professional. He is such a wonderful man. And our father, son, rapport and relationship felt that we were really bouncing off of real energy. You know, we could have really good discussions. We could talk. There was. It just felt so natural. It didn't take a lot of effort. I felt really blessed to be able to work with Nathan.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Nathan Lane, as amazing as being on set was for James, shooting during a global pandemic had its downsides.

[James Caverly]

My very first experience was in Episode two. That was the first time my character shows up. And that was filmed in January. So we came into our building, it was somewhere on the Upper west side. And the weather, as you know, in January is very cold. In the 30s, something like that, in New York City. And we were filming inside. But the COVID protocol required that all actors would be able to take their masks off when filming. But there had to be a lot of air circulation. So windows had to be open, doors had to be open. Air had to circulate in 30 degree temperature. So what I remember is how freezing it was while we were shooting inside.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I personally have been suspicious of your character from the beginning, and so have a lot of. A lot of. Very suspicious. I've been very suspicious. Did you intentionally make us suspect you in the way you played your character? Did you do things intentionally to make me feel that way?

[James Caverly]

Yes, of course.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yeah, that's succinct.

[James Caverly]

I think that actually, I think that character development. Right. You know, speaking as an actor and as Theo does this horrible accident where he has pushed Zoe off. I mean, someone who carries that secret with you in oneself for 10 years, that kind of a secret, that person has to be looking over their shoulder all the time, has to be afraid of getting busted at any time. Any moment, someone could find out. And I just think as an actor, when you think about that and being constantly aware and having that and that that does give off the Persona, then I have a secret. Nobody needs to know. Right? So, yes, I think there are lots of layers. Lots of layers to my character, Theo.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The episode itself has a lot of layers. And besides how obviously different the sound is, there's no audible dialogue. The director, Shirin De Abbas, made a number of intentional visual choices, too.

[James Caverly]

After the conversation with Sherry and the director, we talked a lot about how this show would be framed from a deaf perspective this episode. And we talked about how I was explaining to her how deaf people are. Visual acuity is so sensitive because that is how we are experiencing the world. So I don't know if hearing people would tell or not tell, but in episode two seven, all of the camera angles, I think, are tighter, are more intimate. It feels to me maybe closer than some of the other episodes. So I think that is to enhance the sense of vision in the moment. And I think perhaps that is a visual difference from other episodes. And you might note that.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah.

[Stephen Markley]

And all credit, really, to Shireen, the director of the episode. She did an amazing job. It just looks incredible. And sort of the sonic qualities of it, especially when you're. Theo's perspective, are so, so gripping. She really did an incredible job with it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

A great silent scene in this episode is when Charles and Jan play a game of Scrabble that takes a sexy turn. Charles plays the word hard. Jan plays the word wet. They exchange a look of lust. Here's Ben Philippe.

[Ben Philippe]

I was channeling the characters because I feel like Charles and Jan are two very proper adults, but who've had, like, a full life. Charles used to be an actor for years. Jan is an artist and a musician. And I feel like, you know, when they feel comfortable with each other's bodies, as Kristen Newman would say, they just cut loose. And when it came time to pick those words, I was just like, all right, he would do this, he would do that. And then we just had to, like, sort of, like, make things a little more romantic.

[Stephen Markley]

We toned it down a little.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly another writer or contributor)]

I love how, you know, she fits into Charles. Story of just, like, pulling him out of his shell. Along with Mabel and Oliver in this

[Elizabeth Keener]

podcast, this is Ben Smith, the writer of episode three. You'll be hearing more from him next

[Unidentified Guest (possibly another writer or contributor)]

week in their duet. You know, episode four. That duet, he's playing Take Me out to the Ball Game, like, these really chaste songs. And she's playing like, if youf Think

[Elizabeth Keener]

I'm Stuck Sexy, which carries over into the Scrabble.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly another writer or contributor)]

Yeah, exactly. Same idea, like, very brave words. And she's. She's being really sexy with it and so.

[Ben Philippe]

And then.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly another writer or contributor)]

But this time he start. He goes along with it. So I love kind of like tracking that and how she's helping him. You know, she's definitely, like, scaring him, but, you know, make at the same time making him feel relaxed and opening up. And it's really nice.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We've heard a few times now that season two is in the works, and both Ben Philippe and Steven Markley are back in the room.

[Ben Philippe]

One of the things I love so much about Mark Lee is that, like, I remember viscerally hating this man and

[Stephen Markley]

him hating me too.

[Ben Philippe]

There was one time we were having a discussion about this episode, and we were just arguing for at least close to an hour about the most minute, most ridiculous detail that I over zoom in. Over, zoom, over zoom exactly like this. And I think Bark Lee just being the grown up was like, all right, what do you want to do now? And I remember just like watching myself cross my arms and just lean back. I was like, I don't want to do anything ever. And we just had to sort of like power through it and be like, oh, I love you. I love you too.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Me too. It works.

[Stephen Markley]

We're one of those couples we don't argue about anything serious. But it's like, if, you know, the milk was Left out for 30 minutes too long, then we're gonna have at it for the rest the of of the day. It's.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And now some clues.

[Ben Philippe]

I am very likely to spoil this season, next season, and even, like, future seasons, actually. So I'm gonna be very careful and say that Mabel is not a ghost. That was one of the first theories that I came across that I really loved. And people really thought that Mabel was the ghost of Zoe early on.

[James Caverly]

And I use sorry

[Elizabeth Keener]

I told you about it.

[Ben Philippe]

I love that theory. And if I'm gonna sort of like, dispel one theory is that no matter how much I love it, Zoe and Mabel are two different characters, and Mabel is indeed alive.

[Stephen Markley]

I have an actual clue. Okay, make sure. You might have to write this down. So there's a line of dialogue in the first seven episodes, which is an anagram for the childhood hometown of the actor who plays the killer. So just figure that out and you'll

[Elizabeth Keener]

be good soda Buck.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

What?

[Ben Philippe]

And knowing Mark Lee, that's true.

[Elizabeth Keener]

If that clue is a little too obscure for you, here's one more from the writer of episode three, Ben Smith.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly another writer or contributor)]

We're so close to the end. I don't want to spoil. So it's a little vague, but I think that the story, for me, the story of the murder and what actually happened fits in nicely with the big themes that we've been exploring this season. So what happened should. And the explanation for it should tie in thematically with what's happened in the show.

[Ben Smith]

Through every door they'll go Weary of hearing Day after day okay.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Kevin.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You know it's your favorite time.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

I think it is my favorite time, but I still always forget what you call it, and it's very funny.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's the whodunit summit. Summit. Okay.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

So this is the part of the show where Keener and I individually put who we think the murderer is so far in an envelope. Seal it until we open it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Now? Yes, we're opening it.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

So you're gonna open my envelope first?

[Elizabeth Keener]

I'm gonna open yours first. I have been working on my opening and ripping skills. Okay, ready?

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Here we go.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here we go. Oh, that's. I still need work. All right. It is. You guessed Teddy Demas.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes. Oh, well, in this episode in particular, he gets very angry, and he threatened Mabel and Tim Kono.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

So that's a good guess.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's a good guess. Let me change one second. I want to write something down. Okay. Here you go. And so there you go. And I think. Oh, boy.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

All right. Keener put Oscar's dad.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You know, I went back.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

That's what I did.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The last one. Oh, you did? I don't even remember. I'm so sorry. I did Oscar's dad, like, I think episode two. Oh, did you? Yes, I did. And that's when we saw him.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

The good thing is we never remember what the other one.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I know. And you know, because I was. I've always been saying, it's Theo. It's Theo.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And then. Well, I didn't give him a name at first, but, you know, Nathan Lane's son, Teddy's son. But I'm going to change it up because. Because he couldn't have done two killings. I feel like, you know, he did the right. I don't know. Maybe he did. He could be. He could be one of those mass murderers.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Is that a bad guess? Especially since I also picked it at some point.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, God. Now it's a really bad guess now that I'm thinking about it. She. Why'd you remind me?

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Well, you're locked in.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right. Locked in. We're done with that.

[Ben Smith]

I'll go out and make it or steal it or take it or die.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So, listeners, do you have a theory about who killed Tim Kono? Let us know, email [e-mail] thank you for listening to episode 7. Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. The show is hosted by Elizabeth Keener and Kevin Lan, produced by Ryan Tillotson, Maggie Bowles and William Sterling. Associate producer is Stephen Markley. Music by Kyle Merritt. And big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Ari Abishe and the entire Hulu team.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

See you next week again from Keener's Closet.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Bye. Okay, so now before we wrap this up, we just want to give some shout outs and thank yous for some of our listeners.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Fans.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, Kevin. Our listeners. So we want to. We want to thank them for throwing out to us some ideas.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

They have some really good, great ideas.

[Elizabeth Keener]

They think it through. I mean, there was. There's some people who think it's Will.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

There's a few people who think it's.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And who do you. Who's. Who's that?

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

I know Aaron thinks it's Will. We have. Lauren thinks it's Will.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yep.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

And John from Jackson. From Jackson, Tennessee.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So. Mm. And they think that, you know that he staged a poisoning of Winnie the dog.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes. He was a vet using his veterinary skills. And so maybe it wasn't a poisoning. Maybe it was like he kind of made.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He did saunter in when she sauntered in. And when he was looking for Winnie, when he was looking for her, she couldn't find. Yeah. So. And then there's also Ryan and Jeff think it's Ursula. Ursula, That's a good idea.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

The one who handles the packages because

[Elizabeth Keener]

she's got her side things and her side hustles. One of them said, I think about in the coffins or something. She's a. Whatever. Something to do with coffins. I can't remember what she says, but it was good. It was really good.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

And then we have two listeners from Melbourne, Australia.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. And you say Melbourne because that's the right way to say it.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Because I went there and we called it Melbourne and I was like, now

[Elizabeth Keener]

it's Melbourne, but we're shouting out to Lucas and Esther with the right thing. Melbourne. Melbourne. So thank you. And yeah. So. Oh, Esther. No, Esther thinks it's Oscar.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So do we know that? Okay, so Esther thinks it's Oscar. Ryan and Lucas think it's Ursula. I mean, I'm trying to keep up because they all have different great ideas. And the last couple Like Jean Carlos. Yep. And Nathan.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

And Nathan, who's from Ohio, where all the bodies are buried. They both think it's Mabel's mother.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. I mean, well, they're all characters in the show, so it could be any one of them.

[Kevin Lance (KK)]

Yeah. They think she has access because her sister lived in the building, so people would know who she is.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is just a lot to think about. Oh, my brain hurts.