S2 E10: I Know Who Did It

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S2 E10: “I Know Who Did It”

Release Date: August 24, 2022 | Host: Elizabeth Keener & Kevin Lan | Guests: John Hoffman, Matteo Borghese, Rob Terofsky, Idina Verson

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Episode Overview

This finale episode of the Season 2 “Only Murders in the Building” companion podcast takes listeners deep behind the scenes of the explosive S2E10 episode, “I Know Who Did It.” It celebrates the climactic killer reveal in the Arconia, unpacks the show’s twisting red herrings, explores how the finale was written and filmed, and features candid insights from cast, crew, and writers—especially Idina Verson (Poppy/Becky Butler). The hosts offer witty conversation, playful banter, and close the season with clues for what’s ahead in Season 3.

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Theories, Suspects & The Red Herrings

Fans & Hosts Reflect (00:01 - 02:00)

• Early episode moments bring together both hosts, fans, and writers recalling their favorite murder theories.
• Idina Verson: “Straw hut meeting. Who do you think killed Bunny? I think it’s Alice … The gallery girl is what I call her.” (00:01)
• Theories from the team include Alice, Cinda, Detective Krebs, and even Howard (the cat guy), underscoring how the writers delight in misdirecting viewers.
• Elizabeth Keener and Kevin Lan—along with fan contributions—note that while some fans did land on Poppy/Becky and Kreps as suspects, “a lot of people guessed wrong.” (07:02)

Favorite Red Herrings & Crafting the Misdirection (08:04 - 09:45)

• Ursula and Nina Lynn were popular fan suspects, with writers intentionally crafting “body type” ambiguity (e.g., “glitter guy”).
• Matteo Borghese: “It’s amazing to meet the way people watch the show ... I have to step up my detailed storytelling.” (09:49)

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The Path to the Finale—How the Killer Was Chosen

Selecting (and Concealing) Poppy as the Killer (10:31 - 11:18)

• Q: Did you know it was Poppy when you wrote her into season one?
  • Matteo Borghese: “No. I quickly came to the decision ... Poppy was one of them [options for S2 killer] ... The challenge was always, how do we hide her?” (10:35)
• The writers loved the idea of making a season where the trio is especially “disoriented”—thrown off their game by fame, trauma, and layered red herrings. (17:17)
• Poppy’s episode as narrator was key: “...to motivate her to do a thing like this, but also make us feel for her and imagine it could go either way.” (19:11)

Idina Verson’s Secret & Her Reaction (11:57 - 13:23)

• Idina Verson describes the secrecy around learning she was the killer:
  • “I had a Zoom with Jess and John, and they told me. They were like, you are the killer ... I was so excited.” (12:27–12:40)
• On negotiating her contract: “They can’t credit her. ... And finally they were like, okay, we’ll tell you.” (12:46)
• “Nobody in the crew knew. Nobody in the cast knew.” (13:26)

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Revealing the Killer (and the Killer Reveal Party)

Secrets on Set (14:13 - 15:54)

• Idina recounts how she performed as the masked, sneezing figure in episode four, but her identity was concealed from nearly everyone—even crew and cast.
• The show used body doubles to avoid “Reddit sleuths” identifying her, but fans still spotted her face in the passageway scene. (16:02)

Writing the Killer Reveal & Group Scene (38:44 - 43:42)

• Filming the “killer reveal party” was a massive logistical feat across four days; not all actors could be present together, and Tina Fey’s scenes were shot with a stand-in for most of the time.
• Matteo Borghese: “You would never know it ... from the final cut ... all piecemealed ... that was working, after a lot of worry.” (41:08)
• Rob Terofsky: “...tracking, like, a few things at the same time—you’re scared that people will figure it out and turn off the show and you’ll lose your job and die in disgrace.” (44:20, humorously describes creative pressure.)
• The writers engineered “curveballs” like Charles being stabbed (as part of the act), aiming to surprise both Poppy and the audience. (44:36)

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Hidden Details, Clues & Easter Eggs

The Famous 14 Sandwich / The Movie Reference (21:41 - 24:59)

• The infamous “liverwurst and marmalade sandwich” was invented in the writers’ room.
• The “14 Savage” clue and sandwich order were inspired by the film The Conversation (dir. Francis Ford Coppola), where misinterpreted dialogue becomes a vital clue.
  • Rob Terofsky: “…Gene Hackman is like a wiretapper ... and he hears them say ... ‘He’d kill us if he had the chance’ ... It means something different depending on the emphasis. … That’s what we hope 14 Savage was.” (24:06–24:59)

Clues about Poppy/Becky (35:51 - 36:30)

• Idina Verson: “Poppy’s a really good liar, and I’m just gonna play it at face value ... the little nuggets ... if you go back, you can kind of see ... the correcting of the pronunciation of Chickasha—that’s a huge clue.” (35:51–36:30)

The Pairings Theme (59:29)

• Matteo Borghese: “Season two had a lot of twos … Bunny had Mrs. Gambalini, Charles got a non-murderous love interest ... pairings were another big thing ... I have a feeling ... we’re going to be dealing in threes in season three.” (59:29–60:00)

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Notable Moments & Quotes

Idina’s Rap Gift (53:57)

• Matteo Borghese: “She gave the greatest rap gift in history … I open it, and it is a ... butcher knife. And inscribed on the ... knife is ‘I’m sorry, Poppy.’” (53:58–54:27)

The Host’s Theories & Teasing Each Other

• Elizabeth Keener, on clues: “I’m stuck on the sweatshirts and the hoodies, man ... She had that reddish-orangish hoodie on [Poppy], ... that was a good clue.” (59:04–59:13)
• Kevin Lan, jokingly about guessing the next killer: “I’m going to say it’s Charles’s makeup artist girlfriend, played by Andrea Martin, I think.” (60:40)

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Crafting the Season & “Acting” Moments

Structuring the Narrative (17:17–20:15)

• Season two intentionally disoriented the trio, making it hard for them (and the audience) to investigate as the leads themselves became suspects.

The Tomato & Slow Motion Gags (47:27–50:29)

• Writers came up with Cinda’s oddest fears: tomatoes and slow motion.
• The diner booth scene, with Poppy listing these quirks, is a favorite of the creative team.
  • John Hoffman as Charles takes notes: “That she does not like the inside of a tomato.” (48:59)
  • Elizabeth Keener: “When they did the slow motion, you had two character actors that were able to do that slow motion, it was unbelievable. They committed so much.” (49:52)

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Logistics, Production & Fun Facts

Killer Reveal Party Filming Challenges (38:44–43:42)

• Tina Fey’s double was used for most days; coverage was shot with a stand-in and then Fey filmed her parts separately.
• The prop team enhanced the set with banners and cakes beyond what was in the script, embodying the series’ collaborative spirit. (46:01)

Bird Drama Behind the Scenes (51:58–53:14)

• Mrs. Gambalini, the bird, had animal doubles for lighting setups, and animal welfare was a key consideration.

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Finale Reveal & Season 3 Tease

“Who texted the trio?” Explained (28:25 - 30:59)

• It was Poppy, intending to frame the podcast trio; if Mabel hadn’t returned for more champagne, the plan would have been perfect. (29:31–30:59)

Season 3 Teases (56:17–60:00)

• The showrunners hint that S3 may focus on Oliver (Martin Short)—each season rotates focus among the core cast.
• The murder next season will center on Ben Glenroy (Paul Rudd), a character new to the trio and the audience.
• “I have a feeling we’re going to be dealing in threes in season three …” (59:29–60:00)
• Expect more expansion on the mysterious confrontation between Charles and Ben before Ben’s death.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Idina Verson, on learning she was the killer: “You know, I was like, shut the f off. I was so excited.” (12:40)
• Rob Terofsky, on creative pressure: “…you’re scared that people will figure it out and turn off the show and you’ll lose your job and die in disgrace. Am I laying out the creative process?” (44:20)
• Matteo Borghese, on Steve Martin’s performance: “Steve Martin can be a little napkin off of a tomato. It’s so insane. But he commits …” (51:05)
• Idina Verson, apologizing as the killer: “I’m really sorry that Poppy’s ego got the best of her in a really horrifying way. … Murder is never okay …” (53:19)
• Matteo Borghese, on S3 structure: “I have a feeling we’re going to be dealing in threes in season three.” (60:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• (00:01) – Opening theories
• (02:13) – Introductions to guests and episode 10 writers
• (03:24) – Recap of the finale episode plot
• (11:57) – Idina Verson on learning she’s the killer
• (21:41) – Liverwurst & marmalade sandwich and movie reference
• (28:25) – The trio’s fateful text message explained
• (38:44) – Behind the scenes: filming the killer reveal party
• (47:27) – Revealing Cinda’s fears: tomatoes & slow motion
• (53:57) – Idina’s “I’m sorry, Poppy” rap gift
• (56:17) – Writer teases about S3's focus on Oliver
• (59:29) – “In season three, dealing in threes” tease

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Final Thoughts & Closing

The episode encapsulates what makes Only Murders in the Building so beloved—ingenious plotting, layered characters, playful meta-humor, and a genuine connection among cast, crew, and fans. The killer reveal’s logistics and secrecy were as complex as the mystery itself, and listeners get a satisfying deep dive into both the mechanics of murder-mystery TV and the personalities who bring it all to life.

“And with that, season two beats ceaselessly against the current …”

The season closes with banter, gratitude to fans, a nod to the “threes” motif for season 3, and a sense that the next murder is only an episode away.

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For Newcomers

If you haven't watched the S2 finale, spoilers abound! For fans who enjoy the show’s blend of comedy, heart, and intricate plotting, this behind-the-scenes companion episode is essential listening—full of revelations, red herrings, cast insights, and playful speculation for the future of the Arconia’s most famous podcasters.

Transcript

[Idina Verson]

Straw hut meeting. Who do you think killed Bunny? I think it's Alice. The gallery girl is what I call her.

[Matteo Borghese]

I had thought for a while that

[Rob Terofsky]

Cinda Canning was involved, but that she didn't do it.

[Matteo Borghese]

So I think that there's gonna be a twist in the finale and someone else did it.

[Idina Verson]

I suspected Alice.

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah.

[Idina Verson]

But then I was like, it's kind

[Kevin Lan]

of too obvious, so I don't know anymore.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Cinda.

[Idina Verson]

It's like, it could be. Or what was the other lady's character's name? Forget her name.

[Rob Terofsky]

Bunny's friend.

[Idina Verson]

That they were like frenemies. I think it was Cinda and Detective Krebs together. I thought it was just cinder. I want to say it's the guy with the cat. She gives me weird vibes. Is it Tina Fey? Like, I don't know, like, I, I, I don't know.

[Rob Terofsky]

Stunt double.

[Kevin Lan]

Oh, sass.

[Idina Verson]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good, that's a good theory.

[Matteo Borghese]

I'm kind of seeing like, Nina as

[Idina Verson]

a prime suspect right now. We're defin Cara Delevingne's character. I think it's the podcast hosts.

[Rob Terofsky]

I mean, our girl Selena.

[Kevin Lan]

Who are we? We're a couple of true crime aficionados.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Kind of like Charles, Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters in the Hulu original show. Only murders in the building now in season two.

[Kevin Lan]

And this is our last episode of season two. But we will have some bonus content leading into season three, so stay tuned.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ok, Kay. The end of season two already. But today we're here making a podcast about a show where the characters make their own podcast about a murder. I'm your host, Elizabeth Keener. Still here.

[Kevin Lan]

And also still here is Kevin lan, your co host.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And why are we here, KK well, we're here hoping to solve a murder

[Kevin Lan]

and to try to figure out who the killer was before all was revealed in the season finale. But now we know we do.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we have a new murder on our hands. We may not be in the Arconia ourselves, but we'll get some inside information from members of the cast and crew.

[Kevin Lan]

Today we'll be Talking to the three writers of episode 10, Matteo Borghese, Rob Trabowski and John Hoffman.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. Not only is John the showrunner and co creator of the show, he also co wrote this episode. Plus, we'll hear from the murderer.

[Kevin Lan]

We'll hear all about the red herrings throughout the season. The original plan for the killer's snake knees in the passageway and Tina Fey's hair double at the killer reveal party. Or killer Reveal party, right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

As of now, We've seen all 10 episodes of season two, so listeners beware. We're going to give a quick recap. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button. Finish season two now and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you. The season finale. Finale. This episode opens with narration from Becky Butler. She was working at the mayor's office in her hometown of Chickasha.

[Kevin Lan]

Chickasha.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Damn it, Chickasha. Her life was pretty miserable and she decided she wanted to disappear.

[John Hoffman]

I had a pretty ordinary life. Ordinary, that is, if you assume most ordinary people are pretty miserable.

[Kevin Lan]

She was a fan of Cinda and travels to New York City to pitch her on a podcast about a woman who disappeared from a small town in Oklahoma.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The trio heavily suspect Cinda is the one who murdered Bunny. They decided to talk to Poppy to learn how to get Cinda to confess.

[Kevin Lan]

Poppy shares Cinda's worst fears, which include the inside of a tomato and slow motion. While they're there, Poppy gets a message that Cinda is dropping the season finale. The next day, she orders a liverwurst and marmalade sandwich to go and leaves.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, no. It's Cinda. The finale of Only Murderers is dropping tomorrow. Can I get a liverwurst and marmalade sandwich to go?

[Elizabeth Keener]

The trio invites the residents of the Arconia plus Alice, Cinda, and Poppy to their killer reveal party, which they're live streaming from Bunny's apartment.

[Kevin Lan]

We first think it's Cinda, but then Mabel says it's Alice and Alice stabs Charles.

[Elizabeth Keener]

They tie up Alice and Cinda congratulates Mabel on her excellent detective work and tells her she should have her own podcast.

[Kevin Lan]

This sends Poppy over the edge. She starts sneezing. It turns out she's allergic to Mrs. Gambalini.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The whole party has been a ruse. Charles isn't dead. Everyone was in on it. Detective Williams and the police storm in and arrest Poppy and Kreps. They were in it together.

[Kevin Lan]

After Charles gets his date with the makeup artist from Brazos, Mabel paints over her mural with Alice. And Oliver finally comes clean to Will about the DNA test. They're okay.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And Oliver gets an invitation to direct a play on Broadway a year later. It's opening night.

[Kevin Lan]

The star of the show, Ben Glenroy, is clearly upset with Charles, who's his co star in the play.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And then, minutes later, he drops dead on stage. We have our next murder. K.K.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

uh oh.

[Kevin Lan]

Somebody.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Anybody.

[Matteo Borghese]

He's not moving.

[Kevin Lan]

Over the weekend, our producers traveled to New York City to visit the only murders pop up. They talked to some of the fans there.

[Fan or Listener]

So I was talking with my dad about this. We were getting really into it, and we were thinking, like, what if Alice designed the giant ugly bean on top of the building? Which I think makes sense, you know? And then also, if she was, like, designed it or was involved in building it, then she would have knowledge of, like, the blueprints or the passageways in the buildings and stuff. Even though she doesn't live in the building, she would still know how to get around that way.

[Rob Terofsky]

And

[Fan or Listener]

I already think she sleeps. Like, she was kind of obsessed with Mabel before they met, so I think it's possible. But, you know, the girlfriend was the murderer on the last season.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. You know, listen, we had some great fan guesses. People actually guessed. Didn't people guess, Poppy? Some. A lot of people guessed.

[Kevin Lan]

We had a few people who were correct. They guessed, Poppy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

They were. And they did guess that it were. Some of them guessed it was two people because it was creps.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

Correct.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So, you know, he was glitter guy and douchebag. But, you know.

[Kevin Lan]

But you know what? A lot of people guessed wrong.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. You know, don't talk about yourself like that. K.K. were you right at all? Out of the ten? Any of them?

[Kevin Lan]

None.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, boy. Oh, my God. Do you want to ask me if I was right?

[Kevin Lan]

No, I don't. You got it once.

[Idina Verson]

No.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Twice? Two times.

[Matteo Borghese]

Oh, my God. I flipped out Keener when you were like, you know, in the first episode on the envelope comes out, I'm like, ah, shoot me now.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God. You know what? I had no clue.

[John Hoffman]

Clue.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It really was. I was just, like, shooting the brief last year. I tried her last year, you know,

[Idina Verson]

so I know it made sense.

[Matteo Borghese]

I was admiring of you. Trust me. I was like, oh, she's got. She's on a wavelength.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I am on a different wavelength.

[Kevin Lan]

If only he could have stayed on that wavelength. I, on the other hand, fell for the red herring of Cinda.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, we both did that.

[Kevin Lan]

And before Cinder, there was Alice, there was Marv.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ursula. We love Ursula.

[Matteo Borghese]

I loved. How many people Ursula did it?

[Kevin Lan]

Oh, a lot.

[Matteo Borghese]

One suspicious moment of dumping some things out of a box in a dumpster. Right. Episode two, just. And also when we were shooting it that day, Vanessa, who's so brilliant in that part, Vanessa Aspiaga, just has attitude about everything she does. And so I said, okay, this is you just dumping out. She said, no, what am I thinking? I'm like, you can give me a little bit of something. Like, heard Something from up around there that you didn't like, or someone said. Maybe someone yelled something at you, or you thought you heard it. Just a little bit of like, don't. Don't mess with me. Right. And then she moves on. But that look was almost like something was suspicious about. Yes, certainly. Nina Lynn.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah.

[Matteo Borghese]

One of the more obvious ones, I guess.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But so many people guessed. So many people guessed. Her husband, they're like, he did it.

[Kevin Lan]

He's a.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He's a ninja. He's gonna.

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah.

[Matteo Borghese]

We were need very badly because we knew there was a deficit of body types that could be in that hallway that could also be in the locker room. In episode seven, glitter Guy, every little thing, you know, sort of the. The hand you see opening the lockers when we reveal it's a Caucasian man's hand that left it like, okay, who? Who? And you go through your list. So all of that was part of the thinking. And it's amazing to meet the way people watch the show. It's very gratifying. Even though I say it's the thing that makes my nightmares, but it is very.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You're a complicated man. You're a complicated man.

[Kevin Lan]

It's gotta be surreal.

[Matteo Borghese]

It just means every little thing you do, it matters. And I don't know if this. I don't know if this is benefiting or I can't ask myself these questions, honestly, but I'll share with you that I was not like a TV viewer, like a lost viewer. Like, you know, I was not that person. I don't watch a trailer for the next big Marvel movie and go, oh, they've called in Captain. I don't have any idea of that kind of thinking. I don't take deep dives into stuff like this the way people do around shows like that. So I've always felt like, oh, God, I've got that audience here in some way. I have to step up my, you know, detailed storytelling.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Did you know it was Poppy when you wrote her into season one?

[Matteo Borghese]

Into season one? No.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay.

[Matteo Borghese]

No. I quickly came to the decision. There were a few options for the killer in season two in between. Right. As soon as we wrapped season one and planning season two, we had a few options, and Poppy was one of them. But I quickly came to Poppy and thought that felt. Felt like the most fun version of it. The challenge was always, how do we hide her? As you know, but it felt like the most fun.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You got good. You got us so good. Congratulations. You really knocked us for a loop.

[Idina Verson]

Thank you.

[Kevin Lan]

Well, well, well. Poppy Is the killer.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Can you believe that we had the killer on the show and had no idea who we were talking to?

[Kevin Lan]

I mean, it happened to us last season, too, so maybe this is a pattern.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ooh, that could be a big clue. Somebody just listened to our show and be like, that's probably the person. At least this time, we got to have the killer back to explain herself. Here's actress Idina Verson, who plays Poppy or Becky Butler.

[Kevin Lan]

When did you first find out that you were the killer? And how did you find out? Did someone pull you aside? Did you read it in the script? How did that all go down now?

[Idina Verson]

Yeah, I. I had found out that I was going to be doing season two, and then they were, like, negotiating with my agents, and, like, negotiation. Negotiations were, like, taking a long time, and it was, like, weird, and people weren't telling me stuff, and I was like, what's the problem? And finally, my manager was like, the producers want to have a zoom with you. And I was like, this could go very well or very badly.

[Kevin Lan]

I'm in trouble.

[Idina Verson]

And so I had a zoom with Jess and John, and they told me. They were like, you are the killer.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And what did you feel as an actor getting that part like, you're the killer. What did you feel at that moment?

[Idina Verson]

You know, I was like, shut the f off. I was so excited.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Idina Verson]

Which is also so weird to be like, I get to be a terrible murderer. But it's just the fact that they, like, trusted me with the role and, like, to have such an integral thing to be like, well, they can't fire me. And. And that's why the negotiations were taking so long. Like, when you, you know, have a. A certain contract with the union or whatever, then you're supposed to be credited a certain way. But they kept going back and forth, I guess, with my agents being like, we're gonna pay her this much, but we're. We can't credit her. And they were like, why not? And finally they were like, okay, we'll tell you.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, they had to tell them, too, right? They had to.

[Idina Verson]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lan]

Sign this.

[Idina Verson]

Sign this. Yeah. And then it was. It was so bizarre, because when we. My first day on set, just for that episode one where, like, we're, like, knitting in, like, on the couch. Cindy, and. Yeah, I was, like, so excited. And I was like, I'm, like, a big part of the gang this season. And then I got on set, and I was like, nobody knows. Absolutely nobody knew. Nobody in the crew knew. Nobody in the cast knew. And I was like, oh, okay. So then they were like, I think that when I left that day,

[Elizabeth Keener]

I

[Idina Verson]

think Selena was like, will we see you again? And I was like, I don't know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That is so amazing that nobody.

[Kevin Lan]

The whole season with everybody and everything.

[Idina Verson]

I did get to have a little reveal, which was fun because with the. All the, like, suited up mask people, they. I think I was originally supposed to do all of that, but I only did episode four where I'm in the passageways and I sneeze.

[Kevin Lan]

That was you?

[Idina Verson]

That was me. And I, like, put on this creepy outfit and, like, walked down to the soundstage and, like, like, passing crew members. I saw them all, like, do double takes, and they were all like. And you could just, like, hear the whispers, and they were like, oh, my God. And so then the crew all knew, so that was really fun. So then they. Whenever I was on set after that, there was, like, always kind of like a. A wink, and. And it was fun to kind of have that secret with them. But after that shot, they, like, with the lighting, like. Like, they had me in leggings under the suit, and, like, you could see my legs, and they were like, I've got kind of skinny legs, and they were like, that's weird. And so then they, like, put on, like, these, like, men's Carhartt pants under them. So then you can see it. And then they could, like, see my boobs. And they were like, hunch more, hunch more. And then, like. And so I think after that, they were like, let's just get a body double. So that. And then I think sometimes the body double was a man and sometimes it was a woman. And. And then I think it was for the best because thinking of, like, in the diner scene and stuff, if, like, you know, there's like, people who watch when you're filming on location, there's like, you know, fans or whatever.

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah.

[Idina Verson]

And if, like, people were like, why was Bunny having a scene with Poppy?

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, that would be the end of it. Reddit.

[Idina Verson]

Yeah, Reddit.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lan]

Reddit did get a hold of her face in the passageway as she sneezed. They were comparing that dark image with the faces of all the suspects. Adina saw it too.

[Idina Verson]

I was horrified to never did I want to see my ski mask face sneezing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's John Hoffman.

[Matteo Borghese]

That was episode four, and she should be credited for being in that episode. And so, God love her, I had to talk to her and say, hey, can we not have you credited? Because we. Oh, my God, no, of course. Are you crazy? Don't give it away with a dumb thing like that. So it was a dance of that. And even there were enough people on message boards who were looking and wondering, Cara Delevingne wasn't in that episode. So they were thinking, that's Alice, who was in that episode. That was a different contract negotiation.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, I can see red herrings that you don't even have to put them in. They just happen.

[Matteo Borghese]

They just happen. Exactly.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Can you walk us through the process of structuring your entire season once you've decided who your killer is?

[Matteo Borghese]

Well, this was a different season in that way because it was very intentionally laid out, and some people have liked it a little bit more. Some people have had questions and things like that, which makes sense to me. But it was very intentionally laid out that this would be a very disorienting season for the trio. You know, careful what you wish for with success around a murder investigation, if you're amateurs to that, and a podcast, if you're amateurs to that, and they step in it in a big way, and now they're being framed, and the framing keeps multiplying, making it very difficult to podcast about evidence that points to you. And I think tied into that, of course, is the emotional stories that get sparked for all three of them with events that happen just in life and with events that are tied into, you know, discovering another body in your home and someone you know, and all of that, the trauma around that, and then this big story that Charles has around his father that's being awakened and examined all at once. So very disorienting and very destabilizing, not easy to investigate. And so many people did wonder, like, how many threads could be thrown out there and how could it all come back together again? I hope we were successful at doing that by the end of it. And definitely the structure was set up to hide Poppy, obviously, as much as possible, because some people might think at the beginning of the season, Keener. I'm not talking about others. Maybe Poppy was the culprit. The brilliance of some we had to be wary of.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right, right, right.

[Matteo Borghese]

So I was definitely like, okay, we have to really hide her here. And we did that in a few ways and. And many times, like, by giving her an episode where she was the narrator and the perspective, and give her a story that points to what could help to motivate her to do a thing like this, but also make us feel for her and make us imagine it could go either way. She's either going to turn on the person who really did it or she's going to dive deeper in trying to get herself outside of the situation in a way that, that, you know, saves her ass. So that, that all felt structurally interesting. But ultimately we were really excited by pulling, pulling the threads together in the finale in this big full on. Way more importantly, make the trio, after all this disorientation, step up and dazzle you.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right?

[Matteo Borghese]

And, and let it pay off for them where they are the ones leading this investigation at the end of the day and putting all of the puzzle pieces together as the only. As the way they only could. So that felt very exciting and satisfying and was very much part of the plan. I was excited to keep twisting within the finale and, and to, you know, play structurally with, you know, things that are set up, what you see, and then come back to those moments. The moment in the diner over the. Over the 14 sandwich.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You know, this feels like a pretty good time for a sandwich break. When we come back, more about that sandwich.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

I really don't even know what you're talking about.

[Matteo Borghese]

About.

[Rob Terofsky]

Well, like what I'll say is we were, we would talk about this movie and this, this thing in this movie. And then I went and rewatched the movie and I was like, oh, I totally misremembered it. And I'm. We did it. We're doing it completely wrong. But so good luck figuring it out

[Matteo Borghese]

based on those clues.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So really you didn't reference it. You just thought you were referencing a movie.

[Kevin Lan]

Plus, writers Matteo Borghesi and Rob Chavoski finally tell us about the movie they were referencing with it. Is the liverwurst and marmalade sandwich a thing?

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lan]

Or is that just.

[Idina Verson]

It is now. I think it was made up. I'm pretty sure it was made. I think that I imagine that in the writers room, they just like, they were like, what's a disgusting diner sandwich? And they just like bounced it around. Personally, I think it sounds kind of delicious.

[Matteo Borghese]

This.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Me too.

[Idina Verson]

I'm like a chopped liver fan. Right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, it sounded really good. Like sweet with the liver. I mean, it sounded awesome, actually. Totally.

[Idina Verson]

And yeah, I, I did steal one of the, like the table menus and it's from the Pickle Diner. From the Pickle Diner, yeah. All right.

[Elizabeth Keener]

KK Adina and I agree that a Liverworth and marmalade sandwich sounds pretty tasty. I mean, it does. It does. Bunny, on the other hand, was disgusted by it.

[John Hoffman]

Can I get a liverwurst and marmalade sandwich to go? Hi, Cinda.

[Idina Verson]

I'm sorry, I'm on my way Back

[John Hoffman]

there were train delays.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Oh my God, it's horrible. Liver worse than marmalade. Is that a thing?

[Rob Terofsky]

It's the owner's sister's favorite sandwich.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Bonnie was so disgusted we had it on the menu.

[Rob Terofsky]

She called it freak fool.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Well hard agree with Bun Bun on

[Matteo Borghese]

that one and, and understand it's a very New York thing in my feeling. When we came to that, I was like, okay, this is insane, but it is very New York.

[Kevin Lan]

Here's John Hoffman.

[Matteo Borghese]

Like a character like Bunny would be so offended by that sandwich and by that person who ate it the day before she died. It was that horrible girl is what she's thinking who ordered that horrible sandwich. The only thing she's got to share is 14 sandwich. The only knows how to deal with it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But that is so funny. It's so New York, right? She Bunny New Yorker till the end. She is going to get that clue. That is the clue.

[Matteo Borghese]

That's all I got on that horrible woman who won't stop talking to me about that painting.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This episode was co written by Rob Terofsky and Matteo Borghesi, who also wrote episode five along with John Hoffman. So we had to have them back on the podcast to answer to the vague clue they gave us all those weeks ago in regards to 14 Savage.

[Rob Terofsky]

There is a movie that we are referencing, but I can't say what it is, but I'll come back to it in, you know, ask me again after episode 10.

[Kevin Lan]

It's time we learn what that movie is. Here's Rob.

[Rob Terofsky]

Yes. So it was this 14 savage thing and we're like, what does that sound like? And you know, getting to 14 sandwiches. And the movie we were talking about was this Gene Hackman movie, the Conversation.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, I know that movie where,

[Rob Terofsky]

where Gene Hackman is like a wiretapper kind of eavesdropper guy. And the movie starts with him recording a couple or what you think is a couple who are walking around and they're have. And he's listening and he hears them say something which is is he'd kill us if he had the chance. And he listens to that. He records that and he listens to it over and over and over again. And then what you realize is it means something different depending on the emphasis. He'd kill us if he had the chance. He'd kill us if he had the chance. So that's what we hope 14 Savage was.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, nice.

[Rob Terofsky]

In rewatching the Conversation, which I did with Ben Smith while we were writing it, he uses a completely different take at the End. So it sounds nothing like it because they're faking the fact that it was the same bit of sound. But it's well worth watching for people. It's a great movie.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ah, the conversation. Great movie. Even though it ended up having almost nothing to do with only murders.

[Kevin Lan]

But here's an instance where a conversation does relate to the show. From John Hoffman.

[Matteo Borghese]

To have a conversation like last year with my dear friend Jane, Howdy, Shell. And say, okay, now you're gonna die at the end of the season. And, you know, but doesn't mean I don't love you. It doesn't mean I don't want you in the show still, because you still have to be in the show in season two no matter what. And I do think that's the plus. You know, you're either gonna die or you're gonna be the killer. And those are the tougher conversations to have on the show.

[Idina Verson]

Flashbacks.

[Matteo Borghese]

Exactly. And yet I also like keeping everyone a little on edge, like, how long am I. I meant for this show because there is that feeling of, like, make the most of what you have that, you know, we all feel around making the show.

[Kevin Lan]

Before Detective Kreps, was there another accomplice you were thinking of for Poppy?

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah, there was. There was a. That was one that had some alternates to it, as we were even in the writers room, as we were even in building out the season and working on the episodes. So there were, you know, some things have to be modular. This is also the thing. As much as you want to, like, craft something clever, then you find in production, you're at the whim or will of, oh, my God, guess what? That actor just got a job in Australia and will not be back here to shoot. And you're like, ah, so certain things like that have to play, you know, and keep yourself, you know, loose enough to have variations. Now. Now, this was one of the things that we always knew that would be intriguing and might tie in again with your red herring question and some loose ends and things like that. There were some questions left over from season one, and there will always be questions left over that we are keeping track of that maybe we want to answer that one now and things like that. So potentially someone in the world of Teddy Demas in. In the world of, you know, sort of the precinct that might have been handling some of, like, the Tim Kono stuff and where did that evidence go? Something's happening out there. So having some tie into that and also a long game at play that, you know, ultimately you want to Care about and have all of the characters be emotionally invested in. So what would it take for a guy like that? And it usually will be in the lane of either potential earnings or new fresh cash influx or love. And I think both of those things taking play here. And then Michael rapaport just being fantastic.

[Elizabeth Keener]

One lingering question that was brought up at the end of season one and plagued us through season two was who texted Charles, oliver, and mabel on the night of bunny's murder?

[Kevin Lan]

And in this episode, we finally learn who, but maybe not exactly why.

[John Hoffman]

Things went wrong. Right from the start, right from that night that I texted you to get out of the building and you came back to your apartment, there.

[Matteo Borghese]

There are things that we ask the audience to put together that aren't in the finale. You know, I think there are questions that will come up for people, and I think one of them I knew we had to answer. Who texted them on the roof that night? There was an interesting thing, and I'm trying to remember why it is, and I still don't know. So I'll ask the audience and I'll ask you. But there was an assumption that. That the person who texted them only texted charles and oliver on the roof. Now, meanwhile, we saw them get that text, but mabel had a lot to deal with that night. But I don't think we can assume that mabel wasn't texted as well.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right.

[Matteo Borghese]

So. And actually, so we kind of correct that in. In this moment, you see the text go out. We go to that moment. It's very brief. As poppy is saying, that moment I texted you on the roof, it all went wrong from there. And so the answer to why would she text? It was definitely a setup. You know, she was with kreps. The plan was, we'll call the cops to come to the arconia. There's a. Something bad going down at the arconia. There's a murderer on the loose. I heard a woman scream. Whatever they've told, it's like there's panic at the arconia and those cops and the sirens are heading towards the arconia that night. And the plan was for poppy to say, get out of the building now. And to text them. The plan originally was she knew they were up on the roof, and she was going to have them run down and be running out of the building in a panic as the cops pull up and they're wondering, hold it, hold it, hold it, or what? People would have seen them screaming to run out of the building, and lo and behold, there's a woman's body in Mabel's apartment lying dead on the floor. So who looks like the most likely culprit? That was the idea that all that Poppy had. The problem was that Mabel came back to get another bottle of champagne at the wrong time. Mabel should not have been in there in the original plan and seen her ultimately go out the door and down the hole.

[Idina Verson]

And actually, this is another. I think it's okay to say this. This originally, it was not a sneeze. Originally, I was barking like a dog.

[Matteo Borghese]

Why?

[Kevin Lan]

Why?

[Idina Verson]

Good question. I think. I think that they were originally going to have it. Part of Becky's backstory that, like, I had used that as self defense when I was Becky. Something about, like, bark. Like, like I was hiding and like, I would bark. There's something feral about me. But it, like, had scared somebody off in my past, I think. And so when we were shooting the episode one, John came up to me and with this, like, big smile, and he was like, hey, do you think you have, like a bark in you? And I was like, yeah. Wait, what do you mean,

[Matteo Borghese]

yeah?

[Idina Verson]

Well, I thought he meant like, emotionally or like.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. A real one.

[Kevin Lan]

Tree bark.

[Idina Verson]

And he was like. He was like a. Like a deep bark. And I was like, like a dog. And he was like, yeah. And I was like, sure, yeah, totally. And. And so when we shot that in the passageway, I was barking. And then when we shot episode six, they were like, so now we need to record you sneezing because we changed it and. And you're gonna sneeze. And I was like, okay. And they were like, but make it like a deep sneeze. And I was like, okay. And so then after we shot the scene with Jimmy Russo, they like, I just, like, in a room full of crew, being standing, watching me, and like a boom mic, they were like, okay, just sneeze a bunch of times.

[John Hoffman]

And then they.

[Idina Verson]

They like, put it in post.

[John Hoffman]

I told you all.

[Unknown Cast Member]

Okay, Poppy, you know my rule. Two sneezes in my presence means you need to self quarantine for a week.

[Kevin Lan]

Remember last time we talked to Idina for episode six, back when we thought she was just the abused assistant to Cinda Canning?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. Yeah. She told us that she originally auditioned for the role of Cinda.

[Matteo Borghese]

Someone has to drop that.

[John Hoffman]

I have to.

[Matteo Borghese]

To go back and find that audition and show you her audition for Cinda, which I had always had the dream of Tina Fey playing Cinda. But, you know, at that point we were like, well, that's the dream, but let's find Cinda. So we auditioned a Few people. And we got some amazing auditions for that part, but really none other more amazing than Adina.

[Elizabeth Keener]

KK John Hoffman sent us that audition,

[Kevin Lan]

so we can listen to it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. So here's a little snippet of that right now.

[John Hoffman]

Testing, testing. We good? Not everyone gets a second chance. Some get one, but choose to pass it by. Because sometimes a second chance is just another chance to get it wrong. You know what it feels like to be buried up to your chest in sewage? What, like a Peabody? See?

[Idina Verson]

I'm funny.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Cinda, I hope this isn't rude, but

[Matteo Borghese]

your voice sounds a little different.

[Rob Terofsky]

Yeah, like tinnier.

[John Hoffman]

Well, investigative radio requires a certain tenor. Until next time, this is Cinda Corning.

[Matteo Borghese]

And it was. I don't know how to describe it, but immediately just feeling like, okay, okay, well, now we have to find something else for her, because we get the dream of Tina came true. How do we then continue this relationship? Because this young lady is remarkable.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And Adina says when she learned who Poppy really was, she saw a world of possibility open up.

[Idina Verson]

When I had that zoom with John and Jess, they told me that I would be Becky. And I was like, oh, then I better start working on my Oklahoma dialect. And they were like, oh, yeah, I guess this. Yeah, can you do that? And I was like, yeah. They originally, I think, had thought the ending was going to be, like, maybe a little different. Like, they were playing with an idea of maybe, like, Poppy can only confess if she's recording into a microphone. And so at that point, we were talking about, like, is it in the NPR voice or is it. Would it be in an Oklahoma dialect? And then I was like, wait, when she gets really mad, does, like, the Oklahoma come out? I'm, like, a dialect nerd. So I was really excited about that possibility. I like thinking that she learned her other dialect by listening to npr.

[Kevin Lan]

So since you knew that before you even started filming season two, did that change how you portrayed Poppy at all?

[Idina Verson]

Not really. I started. I. At first, I kind of, like, with episode six, I started to be, like, psych myself out about, like, well, what is. What is the lie and what is the reality and what should I play? And. But then I was like, poppy's a really good liar, and I'm just gonna play it at face value. And the writing kind of, like, added in the little nuggets that. That if you go back, you can kind of see, like, I don't know, even just, like, the correcting of, like, the pronunciation of Chickasha. Like, that's, like, a huge clue. That, like, you don't quite. Wouldn't quite think about it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. She is a big freaking liar, but such a good one because we all rooted for her. Because poor Poppy getting crushed by Cinda. But she was just the biggest liar the entire time.

[Idina Verson]

But still, I mean, maybe I'm biased, but I still feel like poor Poppy.

[Matteo Borghese]

If a character like Poppy had had success, some small success by, you know, creating a myth around herself to have some success, much like the Rose Cooper story. Right. So Rose Cooper is an artist who disappeared herself and found the greatest success with her art.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right.

[Matteo Borghese]

And we describe how Poppy found that kinship with Rose Cooper and tried to get Cinda to do that podcast to no avail. And then we imagined the world where Poppy did her research as a good Poppy would and discovered that, oh, Bunny Folger has the painting. Has a painting of Rose Cooper's. And Bunny Folger lives in that building where these three schmoes who came in interviewed with Cinda and they're making a podcast. So all of it began to form, and then that's where it began to feel like a natural that Poppy might be at work in creating her second myth.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah.

[Matteo Borghese]

Hopefully would lead to some more success.

[Idina Verson]

I think that she just never got recognition from anybody. And I think that it just like. And then this kind of smarter and more clever that she became in her secret life, the more she needed the recognition that I think it just kind of exploded. And then at the, like, killer reveal party, they just, like put a dagger into her, into her wound of needing recognition.

[Kevin Lan]

We're going to take another break.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So, so much to talk about today

[Kevin Lan]

when we get get back. The killer reveal party plus what to expect in season three.

[Elizabeth Keener]

O I have chills.

[Kevin Lan]

They multiplying.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah. Olivia,

[Kevin Lan]

Can you tell us about the big group scene that would be the killer reveal or the killer reveal. We heard it was a four day shoot. It sounds like there was a lot of moving parts and a lot going on there. Can you talk about that?

[Matteo Borghese]

My God, was there?

[Kevin Lan]

Yes.

[Matteo Borghese]

There's so much to share. I mean, it was masterfully directed by Jamie Babbitt, first off. And because of the four day shoot, you know, we knew certain characters just had to be in that scene. But you have to understand, we're making a television show where we're asking people to be there in month one to shoot this little bit of here and there, you know, keep, keep, you know, characters that we love in the arconia alive. And then, lo and behold, everyone is working Happily, I want them all to work and continue working. So pulling everyone back together as much as we could for this big group scene in the Arconia was a challenge. You know, you have Tina Fey, you have Jackie Hoffman, who's in Vancouver doing a show now, and Tina Fey has a life bigger than all of us, and she's all over the place. And how do you get them all for this huge scene you need. So that was a real ballet and then a real orchestration of planning from Jamie Babbitt. You never know it. Maybe Idina told you this. I don't know, I can't tell. But there were times when many of those actors were not in the same room together from day to day while shooting that same scene.

[Idina Verson]

Tina could only be there for one of those four days. So there was this stand in who, like, was this sweet young actress who, like, happened to look like her from the back. And. And she got to. She did the scene with. With like, reading the lines, like, she did the scene a million times with like these legends. And I was like, what a cool. She was like, I'm just a background actor. And like, she happened. She got tapped like the day before to do this. And. And so we shot everybody's coverage with this, like, sweet stand in. And then the last day they, like, turned and Tina was there.

[Matteo Borghese]

I mean, and you would never know it, like, from the final cut, which Michael, Cyril Creighton and I watched. I was in New York and he's so very good about this kind of thing. He's like, do you have any of the future episodes? Yeah. So I said, come over and I'll show you if you really want to see them. So I ended up showing. It was about that time, it was the blackout episode, episode eight, which he's so central to. And then I was like. It was fun to watch it with him. So I was like, you don't want to see the finale, do you? And he was like, what? And so that was a thrill to sort of sit next to him and watch that. But he was there, of course, all four days or not. He was one who also only had limited time. So it was all piecemealed in many ways. And so that was the exciting part was at the end of watching it with Michael, he was immediately like, you would never know how the hell we shot that madness. And it was very exciting to feel like that was working. After a lot of worry, only the

[Actor or Cast Member]

killer could have known there was a girl hiding in the walls that night.

[Idina Verson]

Her name is Lucy and yours is Becky,

[John Hoffman]

who told you that?

[Actor or Cast Member]

We did. I wasn't stabbed. It's all theater. We've been on to you since this afternoon.

[Rob Terofsky]

We all have.

[John Hoffman]

I don't understand what's happening.

[Unknown Cast Member]

It's over, kiddo. I know the game you played with me in Oklahoma, and they know the game you played with them in this overpriced building.

[Matteo Borghese]

And I only real think it once. The other times.

[Kevin Lan]

We're acting.

[Matteo Borghese]

Acting. It's the gesture, right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's that gesture.

[Matteo Borghese]

It's all acting. Every gesture.

[Kevin Lan]

I did.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God. Coat of many colors. I mean, I just can't even.

[Matteo Borghese]

Everyone in that scene is a dream, though. That's a sweet spot for us, is having as many people as we can, you know, in a scene, because you end up with a scene full of, like, knockouts, and everyone has something to do and say, and you can't wait to hear from everyone.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So every one of them is a

[Matteo Borghese]

blessing of this show. In a crazy way. You know, you're sort of like. You have to almost edit yourself down.

[Rob Terofsky]

That was a very complicated scene to write and also shoot.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And here's Rob.

[Rob Terofsky]

You're sort of tracking, like, a few things at the same time. You're tracking what the audience thinks is happening in each of those moments, what the trio is really doing and what we want. Poppy. What they want Poppy to be thinking. So we were constantly sort of, like, trying, and you're trying to have it happen as quickly as possible because you're scared that people will figure it out and turn off the show and you'll lose your job and die in disgrace. Am I laying out the creative process?

[Matteo Borghese]

No.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's what happens.

[Matteo Borghese]

Accurately.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, that's what happens.

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

Stakes. Those are the stakes.

[Rob Terofsky]

We like the idea of Charles being stabbed. I think that was. We like that one. I'm trying to remember how it came together.

[Kevin Lan]

Here's more from Matteo.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

Well, I think it was important to both surprise Poppy and in order to surprise Poppy, surprise the audience. So it felt like there had to be one curveball kind of that nobody who's watching it and put the audience in kind of Poppy shoe and says, this is happening. So turning it on. Al is someone that we. We all knew people would suspect at this point.

[Matteo Borghese]

Who.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

You know, who's. That suspicion is kind of well earned as well. And there's enough kind of clues for people to rightfully assume it was her. Was a nice little beat. And, you know, part of that is to get people feeling like Poppy would be feeling, which is like, oh, my God. What Is this. She cracked. What? And to have her boss and idol, Cinda, suddenly cast her away and kind of embrace Mabel in that moment, we really had to sell it. So that was part of it. And then in selling that. And I think Charles getting stabbed was also really liked. And having this big theatrical element was obviously that involved the whole building was just felt like a nice way to wrap in all over and, you know, wrap in the whole building as well.

[Actor or Cast Member]

It's a killer reveal party.

[Unknown Cast Member]

As in a party that reveals a killer or a reveal party that's going to be killer.

[Actor or Cast Member]

See, it is confusing.

[Fan or Listener]

It will all be explained.

[Actor or Cast Member]

And, Cinda, we have our recording devices on, so you may want to turn on yours.

[Unknown Cast Member]

I have a girl for that. Poppy, please start recording everything.

[John Hoffman]

Would you like me to wire anyone

[Idina Verson]

or just use the booth?

[Unknown Cast Member]

Just record all the smart things I say and all the dumb shit that they grunt.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown Cast Member]

Okay, go ahead.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Welcome to our killer reveal party, where we will reveal Bunny's killer. It's also a killer party simultaneously.

[Kevin Lan]

Oh, okay. So we were both right.

[Rob Terofsky]

I think we had that idea that they would call it that.

[Matteo Borghese]

What?

[Rob Terofsky]

Really surprised. I mean, and that's just what it said in the script. Like, you know, it's a killer reveal party or something. But then this. The way that the set was dressed and, like, the props people and everybody, you know, elevating it with, like, those banners and the cakes and stuff. I wish we could say that that was in the script. I don't think much of it was. That really was just like. You know, the thing you love on these shows is, like, people from the. You know, from the different departments having these great ideas.

[Idina Verson]

Oh, God, what is that?

[Actor or Cast Member]

So you sign a big, juicy, dirty $30 million podcast deal. Problem is, you don't have a juicy story to podcast, so you go looking to invent one by a lonely old woman who gets murdered in a big, fancy apartment building. Honestly, not that great.

[Matteo Borghese]

But we were talking about the unraveling of Cinda canning in episode 10. And. And what are the things that would make her upset? And I did say very quickly, like, she's very afraid of the inside of a tomato, and she does not like slow motion.

[Kevin Lan]

That's literally my talking point.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Wait, where do those come from, John? Where do those come from in that rainy years? Where do they just pop out?

[Kevin Lan]

Out?

[Matteo Borghese]

That did pop out almost back to back. And I just. I thought I. I sort of said, we won't do this, but this is like an example. They have to be weird things like this and they were the first two things that came out. And I. And I remember the writers going, okay, so basically. And then they're in the. That we're on Zoom. And so they would go in the chat and they're like, we're doing that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Matteo Borghese]

So they kind of took it over after that. But I will never forget, like, those days of. You know. That's one of the. If I could point to scenes that are like the dreams for me, the quartet, the trio on one side of a booth in the diner in episode 10 at the very beginning, with Poppy opposite. And Poppy is telling them that Cinda. Bit of information. And it's all of them reacting. And Charles is writing things down like tomato. And Oliver is like, oh, I get that.

[John Hoffman]

That she does not like the inside of a tomato.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Oh, I can see that. I'm terrified by tomatoes. The inside of them.

[John Hoffman]

Awful.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Okay, I guess that's something we can work with.

[Matteo Borghese]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Cast Member]

Is it, though? What, are we going to invite Senda

[Idina Verson]

over and make her a salad?

[Actor or Cast Member]

Oh.

[Idina Verson]

Oh, this one's weird.

[Actor or Cast Member]

The tomato was normal.

[John Hoffman]

She's very afraid of slow motion.

[Kevin Lan]

I'm sorry.

[John Hoffman]

I went to a Super bowl party with Cinda, and every time there was an instant replay, I saw her shiver and then start to faint and then

[Actor or Cast Member]

cry a little bit over the slow motion.

[John Hoffman]

Slow motion. She does not like it.

[Matteo Borghese]

And making that real. And, like, in some way, we kind of get it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. People have issues with the texture of tomatoes. They do.

[Matteo Borghese]

That idea came from. Yeah. I do not like it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And, John, I gotta tell you, you didn't. I mean, you said it. But. But when they did the slow motion, you had two character actors that were able to do that slow motion. It was unbelievable. They committed so much.

[Matteo Borghese]

The love of that moment for me is like the. I'm just saying I love my show. But no, there are moments that, like, it's them, but the setup has to be right so that you drop that in the beginning and then you forget about it. Cause so many other things are happening and you complete. And then the minute Steve starts bursting, you don't really know what's happening.

[Elizabeth Keener]

No.

[Matteo Borghese]

And then it slowly hits you like, oh, shit, he's in slow mode.

[Idina Verson]

He's gonna do it. Exactly.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Excellent question.

[Unknown Cast Member]

Why are you moving in slow motion?

[Actor or Cast Member]

Going slow,

[Matteo Borghese]

And then, bam. He's backing it up with rolling this thing out and whipping. Like the magician. Steve Martin can be a little napkin off of a tomato. It's so insane. But he commits in that way and then slicing it. I remember being on set with him, and I was kind of giving him that thing. It's like, hold it up here. And he was like, yes. But then he does it, and you're like. And he squeezes. It's heaven. It's insane. You know, there's so much going on in the show, but in the finale, the idea that it's called I Know who did it, and that Mrs. Gambalini, in some way, is a little heroic because of her bird molting. That was, you know, a problem for the allergic poppy in helping to expose all of that stuff, felt fun.

[Idina Verson]

We did the scene so many times because I had to get coverage on everybody. It was very fun. Sometimes Mrs. Gambolini would get a little scared because there were so many people. And so, like, when Charles reveals that he's not actually dead, and there's the scream. Like most. Most of those screams, we had to be, like, really quiet or else the bird would freak out and then fly across the room. It was really. Oh. And this is just a really odd side note, but that bird was just so lovely and, like, beautiful. And when they were, like, setting up the shot, they have, like, actor doubles that come in to stand in the position. So while they line up the lighting and the cameras and stuff. And they had a stuffed, like, a taxidermied exact. That same kind of bird. But they had to bring Mrs. Gambalini fully offset before they could bring in the taxidermy one, because it would. She would get really upset. Oh, isn't that, like. And, like, there was, like, one time when, like, I could see that, like, the bird word, the taxidermy word, was, like, being brought on before Miss Gambling was off. And I was like. Put my body between. I was like, we cannot do this to this little creature.

[Kevin Lan]

Is there anything you want to say to the fans now that the secret is out?

[Idina Verson]

Apologies. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm really sorry that Poppy's ego got the best of her in a really horrifying way. Know, murder is never okay unless it's like. I mean, sure, there's maybe 1% of murder that is, like, acceptable, and this is not one of those.

[Kevin Lan]

Even though Poppy turned out to be a murderer, the real Adena Verson seems like a sweetheart, doesn't she?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, yes. You know, wolf and sheep's clothing. I'm just kidding. No, she is fantastic.

[Matteo Borghese]

She gave the greatest rap gift in history.

[Kevin Lan]

What?

[Elizabeth Keener]

What?

[Matteo Borghese]

I honestly mean this. I was so blown away by it. I walk into my office right towards the end of shooting season two. And I hope she doesn't mind me sharing this. But I see this long box. It's beautiful. And I open it, and it is a. It's a butcher knife. And inscribed on the butcher knife is, I'm sorry, Poppy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God. Wow.

[Matteo Borghese]

Come on. Everything about this knife is beautiful. I hope it never goes into a human being, but it was really nice.

[Kevin Lan]

Fingers crossed.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, let's see if this is a short answer. Will Cinda be back in season three?

[Matteo Borghese]

These are very good questions. I hate my answer. It's why I'm hesitating. I hate it. No, my answer is maybe.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right, we'll take maybe. We don't care. We'll take maybe.

[Kevin Lan]

What about Poppy?

[Matteo Borghese]

Listen, whether you die or get arrested for murder clearly doesn't mean you're off the show. So that I hope to keep that tradition going, if only for the love of these actors.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right, right.

[Matteo Borghese]

For our cleverness in being able to maybe bring them back. There's a couple of possibilities for sure.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And I love it. And I feel like Amy Schumer is going to get knocked out of the penthouse and some third person's gonna get in there now.

[Matteo Borghese]

Absolutely. There was a. There was nothing more that I was. Because I think a lot of people are like, is it Amy Schumer coming back? Is Amy Schumer like. Well, she did say, not until you clear your names. Can we get together on this. That was sort of her last thing she said. And they don't do that till the end of episode 10.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Nope. And she got very busy.

[Matteo Borghese]

She got very busy. She was also hosting the Oscars, which is one line that I had to cut at some point. I had someone saying, by the way, where is Amy Schumer in the show? And Oliver said, so I think she. Hosting the Oscars. That was a little too meta.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Fans have pointed out that season one seemed to be a Mabel focused season and season two seemed to be a Charles focused season. So we asked John if we could expect season three to focus on Oliver.

[Matteo Borghese]

Yes. Well, of course. Who doesn't want that?

[Elizabeth Keener]

We need more Martin Short.

[Matteo Borghese]

Right. I mean, I think we're. It's a. You know, the end of the season clearly points to a world in which is his. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We got a glimpse into what's in store for season three in the last minutes of the season finale. It's very exciting to be introduced to Paul Rudd's character, Ben Glenroy.

[Kevin Lan]

And we never could have predicted that the murder they would be solving in season three was a person we hadn't Met yet.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Exactly. Kk an entirely new story we don't know much about.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Good luck tonight. Thanks. Good luck is a curse in the theater. I know that. Well, you don't think I know that? I just didn't mention it to be

[Matteo Borghese]

polite to you, you piece of shit. Hey.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Hey. We got two and a half hours to get through. If I can do it, you can too. I'm the pro here, all right? You don't have to worry about me. Be smart. Stay away from her.

[Kevin Lan]

Why?

[Matteo Borghese]

What are you gonna do?

[Kevin Lan]

Ben?

[Actor or Cast Member]

I know what you did.

[Rob Terofsky]

We, you know, we have a sense of what those things. Some of what that means. I mean, now we really know. And we had a looser idea of what exactly Charles and Ben Glenroy are talking about in that really veiled conversation that they're having before Ben dies. And so it's kind of like you're talking about it the whole time, you know. But you leave yourself some room to discover some things. And definitely that moment is going to expand in season three and you'll understand even more of it than we did at the time that it was filmed.

[Kevin Lan]

How do you anticipate next season to be different than this season specifically? Only murders in the building. Is it only murders in a building? Will there be more murders?

[Matteo Borghese]

Interesting question.

[Rob Terofsky]

Yes.

[Matteo Borghese]

I was excited to have someone ask me that that just so I could say, hang tight,

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

We're not authorized to respond to that.

[Kevin Lan]

Keener, was there one clue that we received that you think helped you? Because you did pick Poppy twice.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I know. You know, I'm telling you. I just. I. I'm stuck on the sweatshirts and the hoodies, man. The sweatshirts and hoodies had me going from.

[Kevin Lan]

Right. Because you even said that very first pilot episode from season.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. She had that reddish orangish hoodie on. And I don't know what compelled me to go back there, but it did. And that was a good clue.

[Kevin Lan]

There was one more little clue John had for us.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. We noticed that season two had a lot of twos. Bunny had Mrs. Gambalini. Charles got a non murderous love interest. Are there any others?

[Matteo Borghese]

You know, I do think of things in that way. You know, clearly the father's theme going on on in. In this season. But also pairings were. Were another big thing.

[Actor or Cast Member]

Yeah, I will.

[Matteo Borghese]

I have a feeling. Not to tease, but at least right now it could all change. But I have a feeling we're going to be dealing in threes in season three.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Trifecta. We'll take it.

[Kevin Lan]

Even Gut milk had got milk Zero Right.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I know there was a moment that

[Matteo Borghese]

that shot wasn't in the cut too, and I was like, hold on one second. Get that. Where's the can? We need that can back.

[Rob Terofsky]

Right.

[Kevin Lan]

What would the third gut milk be called?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Gut milk.

[Kevin Lan]

Classic keto gut milk. Like Ben Philippe's Reddit handle.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Gut nut milk. Gut oat milk.

[Kevin Lan]

The non dairy version.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The non dairy version, yeah. Oh, my God. Should we take a guess for next season's murderer?

[Kevin Lan]

Who killed Ben Gilroy?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. Who killed Ben?

[Kevin Lan]

Why not? It doesn't stop us. I'm gonna say it's Charles's makeup artist girlfriend, played by Andrea Martin, I think.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, that's good. You know, I might as well say Howard.

[Kevin Lan]

You may as well.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Howard. You're it. And you're gonna Yo. You're gonna yodel your way into prison.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And that is a wrap. Thanks for listening to season two, episode 10 of Only Only Murders in the Pod. Even though this season is over, our inbox is open, so please send over your thoughts and theories to only murdersrawhutmedia.com

[Kevin Lan]

and if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and a review. It really helps people find the show.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Lastly, season three isn't far away, but in the meantime, keep a lookout for some fun bonus content we'll be releasing.

[Kevin Lan]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted by Elizabeth Keenan, me and me, Kevin Lan, produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Steven Markley, original music by Kyle Merritt, and Only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Xavier Salas, Louisa Maltini, and the entire Hulu team. So, Keener.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Kevin Lan]

I was just checking the fan mail

[Elizabeth Keener]

one last time, and I just want to say again, everyone, we listen. I mean, we read them all and we really listen to what you have to say. And we like to put that out there because you have some great ideas and some really fun ones, too. So thank you.

[Kevin Lan]

And you know what, Keener? A couple of people did guess the correct murderer is Poppy. Mary guessed it, Julia from Arizona, and we're going to give a partial credit to Adam from Slovenia who guessed it was Poppy along with Alice. So we'll give him half credit for that one. But we also want to thank Bonnie, Ali, Renee from the Netherlands, Seth and Sukira, Georgia, Cindy, Richard from London, Amber, Jeff, Bettina, Dennis, and Heather from Texas.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Thanks, everyone all over the world. Thank you, everyone, and thank you for the compliments and keep sending them because we will read them. And we will try to.

[Kevin Lan]

Yes, keep sending the compliments.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We will read those.

[Kevin Lan]

We do read them.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We read those over and over. They're under my pillow and actually framed on the wall. So thank you, everyone. Thank you.

[Kevin Lan]

Thank you, everybody for your. Your theories and thoughts.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We were gonna say it, but can you guys give some sort of, like, it's a wrap on season two or something to us? Just like. And we'll end it, like, end it with that. Just something.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

Look, at the same time, whatever you want.

[Rob Terofsky]

Just give it a wrap.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You have to say it like that. Say any words you want. But something like, like, you know, hate to put you on the spot, but it'll be a great end if you both kind of give us something like that. Anything.

[Rob Terofsky]

Something that's like. And that. And that's the last will here of this. Oh, God.

[Kevin Lan]

What about.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

You said that's all folks. That's all folks.

[Rob Terofsky]

I haven't heard that before, and I think that has. There's something to that one.

[Idina Verson]

I don't think legally, as Disney, you're allowed to.

[Matteo Borghese]

You can't say.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, you can't go ba deep. Biddy, biddy. Yeah.

[Rob Terofsky]

And there's season two. Beating ceaselessly against the current. How does the Great Gatsby end? What's that born into

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

a real writer's writer. How does Pennegan's wake end?

[Rob Terofsky]

Huh?

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

Run, river, run against the end.

[Rob Terofsky]

Run, run, river, run. We should sing that against the end of season two.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

And then it loops back again to the beginning of the book. And then we can start that.

[Actor or Cast Member]

You know how.

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Guest or Contributor]

Man of Letters.

[Rob Terofsky]

And I. I just hope that season two answers for once and for all. The question, who is Ted Lasso?

[Idina Verson]

I'm really nervous about people recognizing me as a murderer.