S2 E3: The Last Day of Bunny Folger

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S2 E3: “The Last Day of Bunny Folger”

Date: July 6, 2022
Host: Michael Cyril Creighton on behalf of Hulu
Guests: Ben Smith (Episode Writer), Jane Houdyshell (Bunny Folger/Mrs. Gambalini), John Hoffman (Showrunner/Co-Creator), Jackie Hoffman (Uma Heller)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a lively, in-depth exploration of “The Last Day of Bunny Folger,” the third episode of Only Murders in the Building’s second season. Hosts Elizabeth Keener and Kevin Lon, along with special guests from the cast and creative team, go behind the scenes to discuss character development, writing challenges, the humanity behind Bunny’s tough exterior, and the episode’s emotional core. Through candid conversations, notable quotes, and spirited fan theories, this podcast deepens the viewer’s connection to the show and provides fresh insight into the Arconia’s secrets.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Perspective Shift: Humanizing Bunny

• Purpose of Episode 3:
  The episode seeks to shift the audience’s understanding of Bunny from a gruff antagonist to a nuanced, sympathetic character.

  “The overarching idea of the episode was to dimensionalize and humanize Bunny…so that both the audience and our trio see her in a new light.”
  —Ben Smith (05:52)

• Original Plan vs. Final Story:
  The writers first conceived a more ‘investigative’ episode, but realized the need to focus on Bunny's life and relationships.

  "We’re three episodes into a season with a new murder victim that we don’t know very well.”
  —Ben Smith (07:31)

• Showrunner’s Vision:
  John Hoffman explains the drive to let viewers brush closely against clues while inviting empathy for Bunny.

  "To invest our trio in a sort of new take on Bunny…to realize a certain humanity and kinship with Bunny and appreciation for what she'd been trying to do."
  —John Hoffman (08:10)

2. Building Bunny: Details and Layered Performance

• Creating Bunny’s Day:
  Writers collaboratively built Bunny’s daily rituals—her Knicks fandom, go-to diner, and connections to New York life.

  “We kind of all just spitballed—this is the diner she always goes to, what are all these specific New York things that we see…”
  —Ben Smith (10:22)

• Jane Houdyshell on Being Cast:
  Jane recounts her unique casting story, rooted in a personal friendship with John Hoffman.

  “It was much easier than that for me…[John] called me out of the blue and said, ‘I hope you'll be interested when it happens.’”
  —Jane Houdyshell (12:18)

• Acting Challenge:
  Jane relished the opportunity to play someone as singular as Bunny:

  “The character of Bunny…was a huge gift for me as an actor…I’ve never played anyone exactly like Bunny Folger before.”
  —Jane Houdyshell (12:55)

3. Relationships that Reveal Bunny’s Heart

• Ivan the Waiter:
  Bunny’s affectionate, almost maternal relationship with Ivan is highlighted.

  “She’s fond of Ivan…Being treated with deference and respect and sometimes genuine affection by this waiter has been a meaningful moment in her days for a lot of years.”
  —Jane Houdyshell (13:35)

• The Envelope of Cash:
  The hosts theorize about Bunny’s motives for giving Ivan money. Is it pure generosity, or something suspicious involving the painting?

  “Isn't it to support his dreams?”
  —Ben Smith (14:32)
  “I will say that…it's not the last time we've seen that character.”
  —Ben Smith (14:43)

• Bunny & Uma: A True Friendship:
  Bunny’s long-standing bond with Uma is depicted through their banter.

  “Uma is definitely kind of the key friend in her life in the building…They’ve probably been dear, dear friends for perhaps since childhood.”
  —Jane Houdyshell (15:56)

  “Their version of being sweet is like, you know, fuck you. Fuck you…That's how they say they love each other.”
  —Ben Smith (17:29, 17:42)

4. Themes of Change: Old vs. New

• Bunny and Nina Lin:
  The episode spotlights the generational/ideological clash between Bunny and her successor, Nina, over the Arconia’s future.

  “We wanted to have this tension about the idea of—is Bunny holding the building back?...She has all this history and knowledge, and we want to create this understanding that she's the only one who knows these things.”
  —Ben Smith (21:23)

  “The old and the new are very much a part of Season Two…the old and the new board presidents.”
  —John Hoffman (22:23)

• Would Bunny Really Move Away?
  Ben and Jane debate whether Bunny would have left for Boca Raton.

  “I think it would have been something where she left, and one week later she’s back in the building and acting like nothing happened.”
  —Ben Smith (19:16)

  “I think that Bunny would have gone ahead and taken a place there and split her time…But…I think she would have continued to fight to stay on as board president…”
  —Jane Houdyshell (19:35)

5. Mrs. Gambalini: The Parrot and the Voice

• Bunny’s Pet as a Window into Her Soul:
  Bunny’s long-lived parrot symbolizes her capacity for long commitments and softens her image.

  “It added all sorts of dimension…learning that she was a pet owner…It told me a great deal about a more human side of Bunny than we were allowed to see in the first season.”
  —Jane Houdyshell (24:16)

• Mrs. Gambalini’s Voice:
  The writers had fun with how sentient and plot-critical the parrot could be.

  “There was a big internal debate in the writers’ room about Mrs. Gambalini and…the degree to her sentience.”
  —Ben Smith (24:59)

  “I'd never played a parrot before…It was very complex and understandably so…”
  —Jane Houdyshell (25:28)

• Crafting the Parrot’s Dialogue:
  Writers carefully justify every phrase Mrs. Gambalini utters so it makes sense in-world.

  “Constraints of, these are things…the bird has heard Bunny say, and what are the fun, vulgar things…But there were other things…like ‘I know who did it’…we have to contextualize that later.”
  —Ben Smith (26:52)

6. Fact vs. Fiction: How Much Is Real?

• Is Bunny’s Last Day 100% Accurate?
  The group explores the reliability of the trio’s reconstruction.

  “Maybe not everything we’ve seen is true…What was important to us when writing it is that by the end of the episode, the most important things the audience and the characters know.”
  —Ben Smith (28:05)

7. Poignant Moments and Regret

• The Trio’s Missed Opportunity:
  The central regret—had they invited Bunny in, would she have lived?

  “It’s a vulnerable moment. They don’t invite her in, and they could have saved her life.”
  —Elizabeth Keener (03:19)

  “Certainly, had she been invited in…I think she would have been so relieved to have been accepted by them…I think sharing that bottle of champagne would have been terribly meaningful for her and a lot of fun.”
  —Jane Houdyshell (31:50)

• The Show’s Emotional Balance:
  John Hoffman praises the show’s ability to walk the line between comedy and deep emotion.

  “It’s my favorite way to write—right on the edge of ‘Oh my God, I’m crying—and I’m laughing and I’m crying and I’m laughing.’ That’s the part of the show I hope we can do in a unique way…”
  —John Hoffman (32:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Old Arconia Rules:

  “And some of those Arconia rules include public flogging.”
  —Elizabeth Keener (07:07)

• On Bunny and Uma’s Friendship:

  “Their version of being sweet is like, ‘fuck you. Fuck you.’”
  —Ben Smith (17:29)

• How Bunny Got the Role:

  “John called me out of the blue and said…‘there’s a character in it that I would love for you to play’…That’s how Bunny Folger came into my life.”
  —Jane Houdyshell (12:18)

• On the Sentient Parrot:

  “Could you do it more like a parrot who’s grieving?…Okay, now could you add a little more of a human voice to that?”
  —Jane Houdyshell (25:28)

• On Regret:

  “It’s a vulnerable moment. They don’t invite her in, and they could have saved her life.”
  —Elizabeth Keener (03:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:06] – Recap of Bunny’s last day and the clues
• [04:01] – Ben Smith on writing challenges in Season 2
• [07:31] – Decision to focus the episode on Bunny’s humanity
• [08:10] – John Hoffman on the episode’s intent
• [10:22] – Building Bunny’s character from scratch
• [12:18] – Jane Houdyshell’s casting story
• [13:35] – Jane on Bunny’s fondness for Ivan the waiter
• [15:56] – Jane on Bunny and Uma’s friendship
• [17:29] – The meaning behind Bunny/Uma’s “fuck you” exchanges
• [19:09] – Debating whether Bunny would have moved to Boca Raton
• [21:23] – Thematic tension: holding on to the past vs. moving forward
• [22:23] – John Hoffman on “the old and the new”
• [24:16] – Mrs. Gambalini as a window to Bunny’s heart
• [25:28] – Jane on the joys and complexity of voicing the parrot
• [26:52] – The writing process for Mrs. Gambalini’s lines
• [28:05] – Reliability of the episode’s portrayal of Bunny’s day
• [31:50] – Jane on the chance for Bunny to connect with the trio
• [32:27] – John Hoffman on the show’s balance of humor and poignancy
• [34:00–36:40] – Whodunit Summit: The hosts’ murder theories
• [38:11] – International fan theories and listener mail

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The Whodunit Summit: Theories Abound

• Kevin's guess: Alice, the gallery owner—possibly an ambitious new love interest for Mabel? (34:32)
• Elizabeth's guess: Ivan, the waiter—maybe he learned too much about Bunny's valuables? (35:56)
• Listener theories:
  • Howard, the cat guy, due to his unexplained black eye
  • Ursula, the gut milk lady
  • The murderer may have been present at Bunny’s wake

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Episode Tone & Style

• The pod has a witty, earnest, sometimes irreverent tone. Banter between hosts and guests underscores the comedic-but-emotional DNA of the show itself.
• Reflects both the show's humor (“public flogging!”) and its poignant moments (Bunny’s vulnerability).
• Genuine love for the characters and story shines through.

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Conclusion

This episode re-centers Bunny as a complex, sympathetic figure, while thoughtfully interrogating themes of memory, regret, and change. Insightful behind-the-scenes stories and fun speculation give fans deeper appreciation for one of the show’s best episodes. Listeners come away feeling like they know Bunny—and the Arconia itself—in a whole new way.

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Notable Closing Quote

"If she went in a sad way, I do think she would have lived."
—Ben Smith (29:29)

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For fans eager for more mysteries, emotional depth, or just a good laugh, this episode delivers a perfect blend of all three.

Transcript

[Kevin Lon]

Straw Hut Media. We're guessing, because that's what we do, right, KK That Bunny is a nickname. So if you had an animal nickname, what would it be and why?

[Ben Smith]

Oh, my God. If. I don't know, maybe koala. And I think that's. That's aspirational. I don't think I've ever seen a koala with a care in the world. And that's.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah, that's.

[Ben Smith]

That's the goal.

[Kevin Lon]

Who are we? We're a couple of true crime aficionados,

[Elizabeth Keener]

Kind of like Charles, Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters in the Hulu original show. Only murders in the building now in season two.

[Kevin Lon]

And we're here making a podcast about a show where the characters make their own podcast about a murder.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Why are we here? To solve a murder.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, yeah. And to try to figure out who the killer is before all is revealed in the season finale.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We may not be in the Arconia ourselves, but we'll get some inside information from members of the cast and crew and clues to help us piece it all together.

[Kevin Lon]

Today we'll be talking to the writer of episode three, Ben Smith, as well as Jane Houdyshell, who plays Bunny Folger, and also voices Mrs. Gambalini.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Plus, we'll hear from showrunner and co creator John Hoffman and Bunny's buddy Uma, played by Jackie Hoffman.

[Kevin Lon]

We'll learn what the original plan was for episode three, whether Bunny would have ever really moved to Boca Raton. And we'll dive into this mysterious relationship with Ivan the waiter.

[Elizabeth Keener]

As of now, we've seen the first three episodes, so listeners beware. We're going to give a quick recap. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button, stream episode three right now and come back so we don't spoil anything for you.

[Kevin Lon]

Episode 3, KK. This is exciting. Charles, Oliver and Mabel are trying to figure out who killed Bunny, and they used the papers they found in her apartment to recreate her last day. Here's how that day went down.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Bunny is looking at a pamphlet for Boca Raton, which means she's thinking about moving to Florida.

[Kevin Lon]

She's practicing her retirement speech. She's planning on retiring as board president of the Arconia.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The trio is celebrating catching Tim Kono's killer with some of their super fans and other residents of the building. When Bunny comes over and shuts it

[Kevin Lon]

down, we see her talking a lot with Nina Lin, her successor.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Nina's got it down. It seems like Bunny's taught her everything she knows.

[Kevin Lon]

After a sweet moment with Uma, Bunny gets a phone call from someone.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Hello? Oh, it's you. No, I do not want to talk about the painting. Stop calling.

[Kevin Lon]

Very suspicious, we meet Ivan, a waiter at the Pickle Diner that she seems to have a close relationship with. He asks her if her friend will be joining her. She says, that wasn't my friend.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All so suspicious.

[Kevin Lon]

Bunny's last board meeting does not go as she planned, and she decides that she's not really ready to step down.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Nina Lynn is angry. They argue.

[Kevin Lon]

After that, she hears the sounds of Charles, Oliver, and Mabel celebrating, and she decides to bring over some champagne as a peace offering.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's a vulnerable moment. They don't invite her in, and they could have saved her life.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah. Oh, we'll never know. There's a knock on her door. She opens it.

[Jane Houdyshell]

What the fuck do you want? No. Let go of me. Let go of me.

[Elizabeth Keener]

There's a struggle, and Bunny's dead.

[Kevin Lon]

Bye bye, Bunny. We talked to the writer of episode three, Ben Smith, who joined us all the way from Alaska.

[Ben Smith]

Yay.

[Kevin Lon]

Hi, Ben. Hi, Ben.

[Ben Smith]

Hello.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ben also co wrote episode six, so we'll hopefully have him back in a few weeks.

[Kevin Lon]

How is this season compared to last season for you?

[Ben Smith]

Let's see. Well, I think, you know, coming back for season two, especially on a murder mystery, I'd say there were, like, certain new challenges and things that were easy. The challenges, I think, were, like, coming up with, like, a new big story. I feel like we kind of set these expectations for a big mystery and we're trying to outdo ourselves, do something big, twisty. We're aware of a smart audience. So, you know, like, you're trying to. You're trying to, like, play chess, you know, and we kind of like, left some puzzle pieces at the end of last season that we had to resolve. We didn't already have all the answers when we finished last season. So that was kind of like, obviously the challenge. But I think what made it really easy and has been really fun about the show and always is nice coming back for season two is, you know the show better, you know the characters better. I find it incredibly easy to write dialogue for these characters and for Steve and Marty and Selena in particular, they're so. Their voices and their characters are so fleshed out to me. So I think the challenge is always, like, okay, breaking the story and figuring out all the specific moves once we've decided on them. I find it very easy to execute. And I think that's kind of been the big difference in the season is once we know what we want, it's easy to do.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But just because the characters have clear voices and personalities, it doesn't mean they can't surprise us.

[Ben Smith]

So it is fun to kind of be like, okay, well, we've done the work of meeting the characters. What's something new about the characters that the audience doesn't know yet? Let's see a different side of them. So you get to. We've laid all the groundwork, and now you can kind of peel back some new layers and stuff like that.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Can you tell us about the scene when Bunny ruins the trio's party with their fans? They're outside by the water fountain with a cake and everything.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

I mean, the whole, like, overarching idea of the episode was to dimensionalize and humanize Bunny and her character. And both the audience and our trio kind of see her in a new light. And so that was kind of our first interaction with the trio. So we kind of wanted to start it, at least in my mind, of, like, this is how they view her all the time. She's coming in, she's no fun. She's ruining things. Kind of consistent with their view of her. And by the end of the episode, that view has evolved. So we wanted to start in a very clear place. But we also wanted to devise a scene that showed even though she was difficult and a pain in their ass, there's a reason behind everything. Like, she has rules. She knows all the rules of the building. There is, like, a history behind these rules, even if they're frustrating. And we also wanted to create a thing where you can build suspects. And the whole idea is, throughout the episode, arms are billion suspects. She's mean to our trio. She has a confrontation with the super fans. She's tough on Lester and, you know, Ursula. Gut milk in gut milk. So we want to use that scene to accomplish many things. So those were kind of all the different things we were juggling there.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And some of those arconia rules include public flogging.

[Kevin Lon]

Well, who doesn't?

[Elizabeth Keener]

They do need a little updating.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Or not.

[Ben Smith]

The charter could use a little update.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Kind of tying into what you were just saying. This episode, we finally get to know Bunny. Why do you think it's important that we get to know her? And can you tell us a little bit about her?

[Ben Smith]

Well, actually, to go behind the curtain a little bit, this was not the original episode that was written like we, as a room broke an episode. And, you know, we all came up with it. I went off and wrote it. It was a Whole different episode. It was still like Driven by the Bird. It was more investigative. The bird had some type of perspective information. They were pursuing the art stuff separately. There's a whole different story. And then we kind of stopped and we're like, we're three episodes into a season with a new murder victim that we don't know very well.

[Kevin Lon]

Here's showrunner and co creator John Hoffman elaborating on that.

[John Hoffman]

I thought it was very intriguing for us to look back at her last day, particularly to find clues in there, brush up against clues. And more importantly and most importantly and probably number one at the reason why that episode is where it is and why we dove into that episode is because it could be easy for a character like that, who everyone kind of in general hated, including our trio last season, and to not feel so much about them, but to invest our trio in a sort of new take on Bunny, as we all have many sides to ourselves. To realize a certain humanity and kinship with Bunny and appreciation for Bunny and what she had been trying to do. And then the double down reveal of what they did and why Bunny is in that tie dyed hoodie after. Many would wonder that at the end of season one to learn that our trio gave it to her at this moment when they could have potentially invited her in and could have potentially saved her life in that moment by doing it. That felt to me like a fairly explosive and very poignant moment to reveal that they have all been hiding privately out of embarrassment and guilt and shame, that fact from the cops, from each other. They couldn't even talk about that moment amongst themselves earlier on in that episode. And so that moment felt like the moment for all of them to invest in a very fresh way with the very right kind of thinking as far as defending and finding justice for Bunny. Knowing what that last night of hers was like.

[Kevin Lon]

It was really sad, that interaction between Bunny and Charles, Oliver and Mabel.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, it was. And we'll talk more about that scene later on. But by the end of the episode, Bunny really does feel like a real person. Right. She's got her morning exercise routine, her breakfast cart buddy.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah. That she get to catch a game

[Ben Smith]

with myself and Steve Markley and Pete Swanson. We were all like, she's got to be a Knicks fan. Like, we're basketball people. She's got to be a Knicks fan. It's like, okay, that's one detail. And someone else is like, has this relationship with Florida. It's like, okay, great, we have that. Like, this is the diner she always go to it's like, what are all these like specific New York things that we see around the city and like what your day is? And we kind of all just like spitballed.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But none of that would have really mattered without a great actress to bring all those details to life. You're in New York right now?

[Jane Houdyshell]

I am.

[John Hoffman]

Excellent.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I'm down in Union Square.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is of course, the incredible Jane Howttschel, who plays Bunny and also voices the one and only witness of Bunny's murder, Mrs. Gambalini and K.K.

[Kevin Lon]

jane is a Tony Award winning Broadway actor and I've actually been a really big fan of hers for a really long time.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She's great. And we learned that she didn't find her way onto Only Murders through a traditional audition process.

[Jane Houdyshell]

It was much easier than that for me when I did well, the play well on Broadway in 2006. There was an actor in the play called John Hoffman who is of course one of the creators and showrunner and executive producers of Only Murders in the building. But from 2006 until only murders going to production, John and I have kept up a very close and precious friendship over the years. He's in L. A, I'm in New York. But whenever he'd come into New York, he'd always see me in whatever show I was doing. And over the years he would always say to me on our visits, he'd say, jane, you know, I. Somewhere down the road I'm going to have a project that you're going to be right for. And, and I can't wait for us to be able to work together again, et cetera, et cetera. And I always say, yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks a lot, John, that'll be great. But lo and behold, when Only Murders was in development and it looked like it was going ago, John called me out of the blue and said, hey, listen, I think this project that I'm working on is going to happen and there's a character in it that I would love for you to play and I hope you'll be interested when it happens. And so that's how Bunny Folger came into my life.

[Kevin Lon]

Well, I'm glad. They should just offer. You should get offered everything, Jane. Just all over the place.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That was an easy process.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Yeah, it was, it was, it was a sweet deal, I'll say that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Exactly.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I will also say that that the character of Bunny, who she is, was a huge gift for me as an actor because as a character actor, I always like doing roles that are departure from who I am. And on Some level. And I love playing a wide range of roles, and I've never played anyone exactly like Bunny Folger before. So I am forever grateful to all the people at only Writers for entrusting me with such a beautiful, beautiful character.

[Kevin Lon]

One of the most surprising things we learned about Bunny during this episode is that she's actually quite a generous person. And we see that in her relationship with Ivan, the waiter at the Pickle Diner.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I mean, she's fond of Ivan and he's been kind to her and he's always happy to see her. And there that interaction that she has on an almost daily basis and coming into her usual diner and ordering the usual thing and being treated with deference and respect. And I think sometimes you genuine affection by this waiter has been a significant, meaningful moment in her days for a lot of. A lot of years. And so the fact that she gives him quite a lot of money, I think she feels like that's all she can give, you know, I mean, that's what she has. I got some money. I'm gonna give you some money. I'm gonna give that kid some money so he can do something, get something nice for itself. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Is there any non suspicious reason why she would give an envelope of cash to her waiter?

[Ben Smith]

Is there a non suspicious? Isn't it, Isn't it to support his dreams?

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah. You say D.J. we say,

[Ben Smith]

I will say. I will say that we've. It's, it's not the last time we've seen that character.

[Kevin Lon]

Food for thought from writer Ben Smith.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ah, yes. How much more of him will we see?

[Kevin Lon]

I'm not sure, but I have a little theory about him and that envelope of money.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, let's hear it.

[Kevin Lon]

I'll tell you after this break.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Welcome back. Before the break, we were talking about Ivan, the waiter from the Pickle Diner. And Keener was going to tell us her theory.

[Kevin Lon]

Hear me out. All right. What if the money in the envelope is from Bunny selling her original Rose Cooper painting?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, but Uma said that the painting was in the apartment the day before her death.

[Kevin Lon]

Yes, but that might have been the reproduction. What if Bunny secretly sold the painting to get some cash so that she could buy a place in Florida, gave some of the money to Ivan, and then had a copy of the painting made so that no one would know? Hmm.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Someone would have to know, though. And you'd think if anyone did, it would be Uma, her friend.

[Kevin Lon]

Well, yeah, that's true. I mean, it's just a theory. K.K. jeez. All right. But you're right. And even though Uma is only in this episode briefly, we get a clear sense of how important their relationship was to one another. Here's Jane.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Uma is definitely kind of the key friend in her life in the building. And I always assume, because of their comparative relative age, that they've probably been dear, dear friends for perhaps since childhood. You know, I mean, I think they go way back. They have a kind of familiarity and flippancy and way of relating to one another that, to me, speaks of people that have known each other for decades and decades. Jane, who I can't. With the. How perfect she is.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's Jackie Hoffman. Uma Yuma.

[Jane Houdyshell]

So you could tell they were really friends. And I think that soft Uma, like, the one person who brings out any kindness or compassion or warmth in. Is Bunny. So I think they were real.

[Ben Smith]

They.

[Jane Houdyshell]

They didn't have many other people, so they had each other. Florida.

[Kevin Lon]

Really?

[Jane Houdyshell]

You? Why not me? Why can't I try life as a snowbird? I have a cousin in Tallahassee, and, hey, he sweats a lot. He's got a fungus in his armpits he can't get rid of. Is that your cute way of saying you don't want me to go? No, go. You know, I have a key. Maybe I'll go into your place and

[Ben Smith]

wear all your stuff.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Fuck you. Fuck you. Okay, I'm this way.

[Ben Smith]

You know, it felt disingenuous to have either of them be too saccharine and sweet in that moment. But their version of being sweet is like, you know, fuck you. Fuck you.

[Kevin Lon]

Like, that's flipping to New York Bird.

[Ben Smith]

That's how they say they love each other.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's their affection.

[Kevin Lon]

That's their affection. That's as much as it's gonna be. That's writer Ben Smith again. And when we talked to him, we wanted to know from his perspective if he had any questions for Jane.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And he did.

[Ben Smith]

I'm curious, when she started working on episode three, how much the character kind of, like, matched her own story, Kind of previous interpretation of the character. How much was, like, new and exciting or what kind of felt naturally like, yes, that's right. Or kind of, okay, I gotta. I hadn't thought about that, but obviously I can make that work.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I always had a very keen sense that Bunny had grown up in the building. It was the most essential part of her life, being part of that building. And it was really not a surprise. And it was very reassuring to know that Bunny came to the role of being board president kind of through the legacy of her mother having been that. And that made perfect sense to me historically, why she was so att and the nature of her attachment. I mean, she really felt quite entitled to say whatever she said to any tenant in the building Because, I mean, in a sense, she felt a real kind of ownership and responsibility for the arconia.

[Kevin Lon]

Considering that deep connection to the Arconia, it's hard to believe Bunny ever would have moved to Boca raton like she talked about, right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

So we asked Ben what he thought.

[Kevin Lon]

Do you think that Bunny would have moved to Boca raton if she had not been murdered?

[Ben Smith]

I think it would have been something where she left, and one week later she's back in the building and acting like nothing happened. And everyone's a little confused. Like, we threw a party for you, didn't we? I feel like we all gave you presents and now you're back. I don't know what's going on.

[Kevin Lon]

Jane, on the other hand, had a different take.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I think that bunny would have gone ahead and taken a place there and split her time. Many new yorkers retire, take a place in Florida, spend the winter months and come back. But more to the point, I think your question is about whether she would. This means that she really was going to step down. And I think had things not played out the way they did, I think she would have continued to fight to stay on as board president until she was damn sure that whoever was going to take over was going to honor the historical integrity and beauty that is the Arconia.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we're not sure if Bunny's successor, Nino Lin, is planning to honor that.

[Kevin Lon]

This is about you holding the Arconia hostage until you're dead.

[Jane Houdyshell]

The Arconia still needs me.

[Kevin Lon]

No, you still need it. But we can't afford to wait. The Arconia needs to be brought into the 21st century.

[Jane Houdyshell]

What does that mean?

[Kevin Lon]

Made more efficient, modernized, monetized.

[Jane Houdyshell]

The building needs to be preserved. Nina, we talked about this. Or were you just saying what I wanted to hear?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Bunny decides she's not ready to give up her control over the Arconia just yet.

[Kevin Lon]

Mm. And Nina is not happy about that. The only reason you're bored president is because your mom was board president, yet you can't fathom the idea of someone else being able to do what you do. You are so selfish and self important and stuck in the past. You're a relic, bunny. And I can't allow this building to become one, too.

[Jane Houdyshell]

You have no idea what this job takes. The pressures I endure on a daily basis. I'm not gonna let you get away with this.

[Kevin Lon]

I'm not gonna let you stop me.

[Ben Smith]

I mean, we wanted to have this tension about the idea of, like, is Bunny holding the building back? And obviously, like, we're talking about the building and these ideas, different views that Nina and Bunny have. But I think we kind of, like, created this slight metaphor of, like, Bunny as the building. You know, she doesn't want to change. She's so set in her ways, but she has all this history and knowledge, and we want to, like, create this understanding that she knows New York, she knows the building, and that she's the only one who knows these things. And it's a question of whether or not that knowledge and that history is important anymore. I think we wanted to create, like, a genuine question of what is better. Like, is it better to kind of, like, hold on to the past and the way things are in this, you know, broken elevator and. But yeah, we have a broken elevator, but we have the one person who has the knowledge to fix it. And it's like, should we just get rid of this old elevator and put in a new one? You know, like, would that be better? But what do you lose?

[John Hoffman]

The old and the new are very much a part of season two.

[Kevin Lon]

Here's co creator and showrunner John Hoffman.

[John Hoffman]

There's a lot of themes running through season two, but one of them is the old and the New York old and new board presidents. You know, in episode three, you're looking at Bunny and Nina, and Bunny is very on top of her successor and. And grooming her successor in the way that she's hoping she will carry on the job if she's going to step down.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's Jane's take on Nina.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I think Bunny really saw her as a protege. You know, I mean, I. I think they had what was a very engaged and rich communication about the seriousness of what it was to take care of the Arconia, etc. But I do think that Nina was kind of turns out, and Bunny realizes that Nina was kind of pandering to her because actually, her desire to be part of the Arconia is to evoke a lot of change there and. And assert her own power towards updating it and changing it and probably making changes to the building that would mar the historical value of the building, etc. No, no, it was a devastating blow and shocking to Bunny and shocking to Bunny that she would be fooled by

[Kevin Lon]

something that's there, right there.

[Jane Houdyshell]

You know, I mean, Bunny's a person who prides herself on being able to read everybody all the Time. Yeah.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, Nina. Nina Keener.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You know who never would have betrayed bunny?

[Kevin Lon]

Who?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mrs. Gambalini.

[Kevin Lon]

Ah, Mrs. Gambalini. And Jane said that Mrs. Gambalini was a surprising addition to her character.

[Jane Houdyshell]

What was a wonderful surprise, and it added all sorts of dimension to her in my mind, was learning that she was a pet owner. And the fact that her pet happens to be an animal that can live up to 90 years, the kind of commitment that it takes to be that kind of pet owner told me a great deal about more human side of Bunny than we were allowed to see in the first season. I love that. And, you know, Mrs. Gambalini has the same vocabulary and view worldview that Bunny had. So, in a sense, you know, Bunny lives on.

[Ben Smith]

There was a big internal debate in the writer's room about Mrs. Gambalini and, like, the degree to her sentience.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's Ben Smith again.

[Ben Smith]

There was a version where the bird. The bird kind of narrates this episode. Like, we wanted moments where the bird says certain snippets, but there had been, like, a version tossed around, like, do we have the bird, like, truly narrate? And we're like, obviously that's like a degree of magical realism and that exists in our show, but how far do we go?

[Jane Houdyshell]

It was a huge honor to voice Mrs. Gambalini number one, because her dialogue is fantastic. But also, I'd never played a parrot before, and again, as I said, being a character actress, I always like to chill. And those. Those recording sessions recording Mrs. Gambalini were hysterical. They were really challenging because, you know, it was like I was sitting there in front of a microphone, just like you guys are right now, and with a guy in the sound booth and several other people patched in from LA or New York or wherever and saying, could you that a little more parrot like, but a little less, you know, and okay, okay, the parrot like thing is good. We'll keep that. But now could you do it more like a parrot who is grieving? Oh, okay. Well, I'll try that. Okay, now could you add a little more of a human voice to that? And it went on and on and on. I mean, it was very complex and understandably so, because who's ever thought of doing this before, other than John Hoffman conceiving of a parrot being voiced by his owner in her absence and speaking for her after she's dead?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ben goes on to explain.

[Ben Smith]

And so writing dialogue for the bird, we had some fun. Constraints of these are things that either the bird has heard Bunny say, and what are the fun, vulgar things that Bunny could have said, which also are like, fun interjections, considering the moment that our trio's having. But there were other things where it's like, I know who did it. I know who did it. We're like, okay, that's obviously a big line at the end of two. What is the justification that this is a line that Mrs. Gambolini has heard before, and can we have to contextualize that later? And actually, I'm pretty sure it's a moment that the trio doesn't get an answer to. Like, the trio does not know that that's from where that line is from. But the audience at least gets the answer. But that was another moment of like, oh, we want to show Bunny and the bird and their nightly routine and stuff like that. So it was fun to think of the things the bird could say and then have to work backwards, like, okay, where did the bird learn that line?

[Elizabeth Keener]

All of that raises the question of how much of this episode is a factual retelling of Bunny's last day and how much of it is an imagined recreation by Charles, Charles, Oliver and Mabel, based on the papers and receipts they found in her apartment.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah, I thought we were onto something with that question, K.K. but per usual, maybe not.

[Ben Smith]

Maybe not everything we've seen is true. There are certain details, like, obviously, the final struck, like, those details our trio does not know, but they have the gist that Bunny died in a certain window and we were in a certain place during that time. There's always this tension of, like, what does the audience know? And what is our. What do our characters know? And you don't want that to be too disparate. And so what was important to us when writing it is that by the end of the episode, the most important things the audience and the characters know. And that's like, we understand the character differently, we care about the character. We have a few tangible suspects that we've gained from this, from this examination of Bunny's day, from doing the work. But the audience definitely does know more and has seen more. And I think what we've seen visually is truthful.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So maybe no red herrings in there. You know what, though?

[Kevin Lon]

What?

[Elizabeth Keener]

We learn why Mrs. Gambalini said, I know who did it, but based on the ending of the episode, she really does know who did it.

[Kevin Lon]

Unless the killer was wearing a mask,

[Elizabeth Keener]

I don't think he was. Because Bunny opens the door and says, what the fuck do you want? And that implies she knew the killer, right?

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. And didn't like them when they opened the door.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, she didn't like most people. But she did seem to be warming up to Charles, Oliver and Mabel. Right?

[Kevin Lon]

I know. Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

Just as like our trio, over the course of our present day, has gained new perspective on Bunny. I think the hope was that Bunny has gained a little bit of new perspective on her trio during her last day. There's a level of appreciation that elsewhere she's not getting. Like she feels betrayed by Nina. She feels disc feels like a relic. And she also realized that the three of these people did save the building. These are people that I don't dislike. They care about the building. They appreciate me. I appreciate my interactions with them. So at the end, when she's feeling very low and she hears them having a nice time, those are the people that she, to her surprise, would like to be with. And I think if she went in a sad way, I do think she would have lived. Yeah.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, that's sad. Poor Bunny.

[Ben Smith]

It was, you know, it was a sad scene to write.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, shit.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Are we being too loud? No, not too loud.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mabel, who is.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Oh, Bunny. Charles Oliver. If you're celebrating, you should have proper champagne. Something nicer than your bottom shelf blend. Thank you so much. Well, you saved the arconia, Maybe through sheer dumb luck, but the result was the same. I don't think I've said it yet, so thank you.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Aw, Bunny, you're too kind. Oh, and we have a gift for you too. There you are. Your very own merch.

[Kevin Lon]

Try it on.

[Jane Houdyshell]

This is the last thing I want from you assholes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, come on, try it on.

[Jane Houdyshell]

All right. All right. It's a humbling moment for Bunny, but I think it's also potentially a very liberating one for her to be able to go to that door and knock on the door and offer a peace offering of a bottle of champagne. And. And it's a beautiful.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Vulnerable moment for the character. Certainly had she had been invited in,

[Kevin Lon]

what would happen?

[Jane Houdyshell]

I think she would. I think she would have been so relieved to have been accepted by them.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Jane Houdyshell]

That she probably would have ended up having very good times. An honest good time. And I think sharing that bottle of champagne would have been terribly meaningful for her and a lot of fun. Oh, my God, she's crying.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, seriously, what is going on with this woman? Did not peg Bunny for a wheeler.

[John Hoffman]

I love that edge, you know, it's my favorite way to write and sort of find the edge right on the edge of, oh, my God, I'm crying. And I'm laughing and I'm crying and I'm laughing. And I think that's the part of the show I hope we. We can do in a unique way that, you know, the best laughs I've ever had have been in places and times when you're not supposed to be laughing at a funeral or at a church or, you know, like, these are the times when some. So right on the edge of. This is awful. And it's insane, and it's crazy what's happening and. And how did we end up in this situation? How do we get out of it? And then you realize, oh, okay, that was a human moment for all of us. And what happened afterwards is what's tragic.

[Kevin Lon]

Okay, now, before we get to the who done at Summit, did we get any clues this week?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, Jackie Hoffman did say something very interesting.

[Ben Smith]

Okay.

[Jane Houdyshell]

I'm not in episode four. Onward.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh.

[Jane Houdyshell]

But I am back for the finale.

[Kevin Lon]

Okay. Oh, good. Yippee. Well, all right then. That's a good clue because, you know, you're not not there.

[Jane Houdyshell]

Maybe I got murdered.

[Kevin Lon]

Maybe I.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's a big clue.

[Kevin Lon]

Selena did it. You know what time it is?

[Elizabeth Keener]

I do know what time it is. It's our favorite part of the show.

[Kevin Lon]

Yes, the whodunit summit. Woo hoo. The second one of this season.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The second one. And this is where Keena and I write down who we think the murderer is, put it in an envelope, and seal it until right now.

[Kevin Lon]

Right. And now we're up to episode three. Yes. So we did our guesses for the first two, and now this is our second guess. And I'm super duper excited to show this one. So you want me to go first and you look at mine?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, I'll get yours.

[Kevin Lon]

Okay, ready? So you're going to rip it. Okay. Good luck.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And you have picked Alice, the gallery owner.

[Kevin Lon]

Yes. I think it's another crazy love interest.

[Ben Smith]

You do?

[Kevin Lon]

Yes, I think. And I'll tell you why. I thought about this and I thought, who would be in Mabel's like her in her apartment? So. And how would they get there to kill Bunny? So I thought, wait a minute. Maybe she went before she did the, you know, the. The dming.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right.

[Kevin Lon]

She actually went there and she created the, you know, bloody Mabel and everything. She created that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She got the hashtag going.

[Kevin Lon]

She got everything going. And now it's gonna be. It's gonna make her into the stratosphere and her gallery and. But she does like her too. So it's not that, you know, it's just. She's just another, you know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So you think she broke into the building and killed Bunny?

[Kevin Lon]

I don't even know if she broke in. I think maybe, you know, she just. Was she. She was able to go in, say hello, I wanna see. So and so she was in there, she saw this. She saw the mural, and she just was like, ooh, that's my guess, you know? I mean, it went from all the way from Poppy to Alice. I don't know. I'm all over the place right now.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right, well, we'll see what happens with that one. I'm not very confident in that. All right, are you ready? Are you ready for mine?

[Kevin Lon]

Yes. Okay, here we go. Oh, Ivan.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, Ivan, the waiter from the diner when Bunny was eating. And I'll admit I'm not super convinced on this one for me either, but I just feel like there's something there because even though she gave him a big tip.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She seems to have seen him every day. So maybe he picked up things about the painting and how it was very valuable and about maybe the secret elevator. So maybe there's something there.

[Kevin Lon]

So that's a crusher then, man. He's so nice to her and everything. And she wants him to get his dj two turntables and a microphone. Who Remember that? Oh, my God. So, okay, so that's cool.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, I think. I think it might be one that it doesn't seem super obvious, but there could be something there.

[Kevin Lon]

We have both strayed off from what we originally thought completely. Okay, everyone, thanks for listening to season two, episode three of Only Murders in the Pod. And if you're in the New York area this year, go catch Jane. Howdy, Shell, and the Music man on Broadway with Hugh Jackman. I mean, tickets are scarce, but good luck.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And our inbox is open again, so please send over your thoughts and theories to only murdersrawhutmedia.com and if you're enjoying the show, please, please leave us a rating and a review. It really helps helps people find the show.

[Kevin Lon]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted by Elizabeth Keener, me and Kevin Lon, produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt. And Only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. And a big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Xavier Salas, Luisa Moltini, and the entire Hulu team. Hey, kk, I think we're gonna now look at some of our fan mail. Yes, I'm not gonna call it listener mail. I Mean, okay, let's fan mail.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We're.

[Kevin Lon]

I'm gonna give it to you. And our. We have Sylvia. Hi, Sylvia. Thank you so much. And Sylvia's from Portugal.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. And she has a pretty good guess about who killed Bunny. She thinks it's Howard the cat guy.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, yeah, that's actually a good one. You know, he had a black eye for some reason. And what else did we. Oh, she was. Because of the cat. Right. The cat fighting and all of that stuff. So that was good. Thanks, Sylvia. Yeah, that's great. I think that's a great guess.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we have Alyssa, who is a lawn pond and a keener cat. She's one of our top fans.

[Kevin Lon]

She is one of our top fans. Thank you so much. And who does she say she thinks

[Elizabeth Keener]

it's Ursula, the gut milk lady.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, you know, I thought about that. And thank you, Allie, for being so observant because. Go ahead, KK.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, she noticed that Bunny is walking Mrs. Gambalini instead of her dog in the opening credits.

[Kevin Lon]

Oh, who's this? We did. How about this one?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Lena from Estonia. Estonia. Keena. We're international.

[Kevin Lon]

We are Internet. Well, I said Portugal already, but hello. Okay, watch the first two episodes. And who did you think it was?

[Elizabeth Keener]

So she. She thinks it was the murderer was at the wake.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And her guess is also Howard the cat guy.

[Kevin Lon]

Howard, too. I mean, everyone thinks it's Howard.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, he does have that black eye, which they still have not explained yet.

[Kevin Lon]

I know. Well, they mentioned it was about some cat and the hutch falling on or something like that, but I didn't believe that either. So. Very interesting. A couple of Howards. And what was the other one? What did they guess? The third one. Forget it. Okay. We don't even remember. It's okay. Wait. Oh, so we have a couple of Howards, KK and we haven't done those. We did. You know, again, ours was.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We have a couple of Howards. We have some Ursula's.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah. And the Ursula. Yeah. This is exciting.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It is.

[Kevin Lon]

It's all over the map. Oh. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, we just want to shout out to others who we didn't get to say, but thank you so much, you guys, for sending in your thoughts and emails to sky and Valerie and Jennifer and everybody else was trying it to. Everybody. Joseph. Yes. And anybody. Everybody. We. We really appreciate you and we're excited that you're listening for second season and you're watching.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I love hearing their opinions and why they think someone is the murderer.

[Kevin Lon]

Yeah, they really kind of flesh through it. Don't they? They're really pretty. I mean, I don't know if they're intelligent. They seem it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

They have their thinking caps on.

[Kevin Lon]

They have their thinking caps on. Thanks, guys.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, the embargo's been lifted.

[Kevin Lon]

They love us making fun of them. And now, wah, wah. Outtakes of our blunders.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The bird is not, in fact, from the Sopranos.

[Kevin Lon]

Speaking of birds, Mrs. Gandolfini. Mrs. Gandolfini.

[Elizabeth Keener]

What was it like coming up with lines for Mrs. Gandolfini and Mrs. Gandolfini?

[Kevin Lon]

How was that,

[Jane Houdyshell]

miss?