Keener (1:53)

Right. So we're just going to start. We might just be. So here's looking at you. It's so interesting because when KK and I talked to the writers, we talked about, you know, the end of that sometimes is here's looking at you, kid. Which this is a lot of parents and child kind of theme throughout the season so far, and especially here. Here's looking at you when we talk about KK you know what we talk about when we're looking at you without you knowing?

KK (2:24)

What's that?

Keener (2:26)

Oh, y.

Moderator (2:27)

Old peoples.

Keener (2:29)

Yo People.

Moderator (2:32)

Yes.

Keener (2:32)

And we act. We actually asked the writers, right? We asked the writers if they ever looked through a peephole without somebody knowing. They didn't tell us. You know, they plead the fifth. So, KK should we talk about who we.

KK (2:48)

Well, I think. I think we might have someone who has a question.

Moderator (2:51)

Oh.

KK (2:51)

Oh, that's right.

Keener (2:53)

I love it.

Moderator (2:53)

Well, actually, this is. Ray Marie is actually our special guest for this episode and I actually was not given the true identity. Oh, mystery I don't know if you or Straw Hut Media wants to introduce Ray Ray Mary, because they are our special guest for today.

Keener (3:13)

Ah, Ryan, are you on? Did you.

Ray Marie (3:16)

I'm here, I'm here.

Keener (3:17)

Do you want to do the honors?

Ray Marie (3:19)

Oh, sure. I would love to. I don't know if people have had a chance to listen to the podcast that dropped this morning, but we have here with us the very lovely and talented Rachel Berger, who wrote the season finale of season one and episode four of season two.

Keener (3:39)

Woohoo, Rachel.

Calm Struggle (3:41)

That is Rachel.

Guest 1 (3:42)

Welcome.

Keener (3:46)

Don't be shy, Rachel. She's got to be muted or something.

Moderator (3:54)

Going for me to unmute there, I see. Oh, no, we can't hear you.

KK (3:57)

I did the same thing.

Keener (3:59)

Oh, no. The brilliant, hilarious Rachel Berger.

Moderator (4:04)

I can't believe I was actually. I was in such a sleuthing mood yesterday last night that I was looking as, like, Ray Marie. Who could this be? I was looking at the writing credits for the fourth episode. And

Keener (4:19)

you didn't get it?

Moderator (4:21)

No, I actually did think it was Rachel, but I was like, okay. But I was like, maybe Marie's her middle name.

Keener (4:27)

Oh, yeah. I could ask her, but we're still waiting for her. Well, she's just.

Ray Marie (4:32)

We're texting. I'm trying to. We're trying to figure this out.

Keener (4:35)

Figure that out.

Moderator (4:35)

So Rachel.

KK (4:37)

Rachel actually wrote this episode with Valentina Garza, so you can also hear on our podcast the interview with both of them. So you want to be sure to check that out. It was a really great interview.

Keener (4:47)

It was. They're. They're wonderful. But should we just said. Want to. Should we do our guesses? You want to see what our guests are?

Moderator (4:53)

Yeah.

KK (4:53)

Why don't we do our guesses, and

Keener (4:54)

then we'll get Rachel and then we'll answer those questions because that's what we want to do. Do you want to go first, KK with your Set it up.

KK (5:02)

So, on our podcast, each week, Keener and I call. We have a thing called the Whodunit Summit, where we guess who we think the murderer is. Based on what we've seen so far, we write it down on a piece of paper, we seal it in an envelope, and we reveal it to each other for the first time on the podc. So, Keener, for this episode, do you remember who you picked?

Keener (5:26)

Yes, I believe I did Howard.

KK (5:29)

Howard the cat guy.

Keener (5:30)

Howard the cat guy. You know, I did him last year, and I'll just continue to go against the grain and do it. Just every single time I've been wrong With Howard.

Moderator (5:39)

Yes.

Keener (5:40)

And, I mean, you know what's funny? Howard's such a lovable guy, but so many people pick Howard. It seems like there's something off with him. He's a little demented in some way. I don't know what it is.

KK (5:51)

It could be a facade.

Keener (5:52)

Yeah. Yeah. So we have no idea. Idea. But with Howard, with this one. Okay. Spoiler alert, people. So just know, you know, this episode with the passages and everything, you know, someone sneezes right at the end, and I just. I just feel like Howard has a lot of issues, and maybe he's got issues with allergies or allergies or something. And I just feel like Howard has all that because he. He probably takes shots even though. Because he loves cats so much, he takes shots even though he's allergic to them, because that's the kind of guy Howard is. He just, you know, that's what I feel. So he probably has a lot of issues with those things. And. And, you know, I'm just gonna pick Howard anyway. Until I'm right.

KK (6:36)

Until he murders somebody.

Keener (6:37)

Until he murders someone. Season 10, it's like, Howard, please already kill someone. It's a horrible way to think.

KK (6:46)

Go ahead, KK So my guess for episode four, it's a little outside the box, I'll admit, but I picked Theo, Teddy's son. So Theo and Teddy from last season, who were both caught smuggling the jewelry and fencing it and selling it and everything. If you recall, they had that secret room in their apartment. So I'm like, maybe Theo knows about the secret passageways as well. Maybe he bumped into that when they were building that secret room. I also think that he could be framing the trio for revenge for sending he and his father to jail. And I also think he could be selling that painting for money since his father's going to be in jail and he doesn't like him.

Keener (7:37)

Yeah.

KK (7:37)

So he'll have. He'll have financing for the rest of his life with a million dollar painting. So it kind of ties up those little things.

Keener (7:43)

Oh, you know, I'm saying. Yep. Yes.

Rachel Berger (7:45)

Yes.

Keener (7:46)

And. But no, no, no, no, no, no.

Moderator (7:49)

Wrong.

Keener (7:50)

I have to tell you. Someone wrote in, and you're going to give them the how to send an she doesn't email. But someone wrote in and said it was very interesting that maybe the person in the passageway is not the same person because who killed her. This was interesting because they said when. When they opened the door. When she opened the door. Bunny. She recognized the person, and now they're in full black Attire and, like, why would they hide their whole face and everything if they already were seen? It was. It was an interesting. I'm like, oh, but they could have

KK (8:25)

been wearing all the black clothing and stuff because we didn't see who. That's true.

Keener (8:30)

We're used to wearing masks, so, you know, maybe they were just wearing a mask or for make sure they don't get Covid or anything.

KK (8:37)

But you know what, Keener? We want to hear what the people listening right now. They think the murder is based on this.

Keener (8:44)

Yes. While we're waiting for the awesome Rachel to come on board. Yes, please, somebody raise your hand.

KK (8:50)

Don't be shy.

Rachel Berger (8:51)

There you go.

Keener (8:51)

Somebody right there.

Moderator (8:53)

There is someone. I've sent an invite to you. Calm struggle. So you do have to accept it to come on stage. Please accept it. Yes, please accept it. Calm struggle. But in the meantime, I was wondering if you would be open to me reading off some of the theories from the discussion thread.

KK (9:11)

Yes.

Rachel Berger (9:12)

Community.

Moderator (9:13)

While we wait.

Ray Marie (9:15)

Hey.

Moderator (9:16)

So definitely a lot of chatter on the discussion thread right here about having the attacker and the murderer being two different people. Support that theory.

Keener (9:27)

Oh, right, right.

KK (9:29)

And. And it was the knitting needles and a knife. So there's two different weapons.

Moderator (9:34)

Exactly.

KK (9:35)

Which one. Which one did the deed?

Keener (9:37)

Yeah.

Moderator (9:37)

Yes.

Rachel Berger (9:38)

Yeah.

Moderator (9:39)

Two very interesting ones. There were a lot of votes for Howard. So Keener, you have a lot of support.

Keener (9:46)

Thank you. Finally, Finally.

KK (9:49)

Law of averages, Keener.

Rachel Berger (9:51)

Yes.

Moderator (9:52)

But there is also a couple of. Of really interesting theories I want to bring up to get your thoughts. One of them was a theory thinking that the killers were actually meant to kill Oscar and they must. They miss. They mistook Bunny as Oscar because she had that tie dye hoodie on.

Keener (10:12)

Oh, that's. That's, you know, that's interesting. I never thought about this.

KK (10:18)

Oscar still in the building.

Moderator (10:20)

We don't know.

Keener (10:21)

But she's. But it's interesting. It's a good point. That. Oh, why did the. Why did the writers already put her in that hoodie first? Because she wanted to be accepted by them. She's going to wear it. But that could be a really good reason because someone is mistaken identity.

Moderator (10:39)

Yeah. A lot of people supported that because they thought they. Nothing on the show is unintentional.

Keener (10:46)

Right.

Moderator (10:46)

It was a bit of a random story point for Bunny to be wearing that hoodie.

Keener (10:50)

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Berger (10:52)

Right.

Keener (10:52)

Because it's not. Just like I said, oh, she. They asked her to put it on and she's trying to be accepted and be friends with them. But that. That's just a Kind of a surface thing. Right. And then it could. You're right. Everything has a purpose, and that is really good.

KK (11:08)

I think she had the hood up, too. It was covering her head, right?

Keener (11:11)

Yes. Oh, yeah.

Moderator (11:14)

So that was a really fun theory, and in the discussion I thought would be fun to bring up. And then the other one was about Cinda, because back in season one, Cinda introduced the trio, or, I'm sorry, the neighbors across the hall from Charles introduced them to Cinda because their kids are in the same playgroup, and then got introduced. She mentioned that she would play with the girl across the hall.

KK (11:41)

Right.

Keener (11:42)

Yeah.

Moderator (11:43)

There's. There's some chatter about that. That connection of Lucy knowing the people of Cinda and Cinda being there the night of. And Cinda now raising her profile, potentially being the killer.

Keener (11:57)

You know, this. This series is actually more like a serial, you know, in the. In the sense of if you look at season one, some of the things continue into season two, and, you know, nothing stands alone except for kk, sadly, sometimes on a Saturday. But. But I think that. So it's really. You know, I really do want to go back, because every time I hear something, I'm like, I just want to go back and skim these other ones from last season because there are things that continue into season two. Some things are wrapped up, but some things continue. And that's really. That's. That's how maybe that's.

Rachel Berger (12:32)

Hello, Rachel. Hi, Rachel, please. So terrible with technology.

Moderator (12:42)

Oh, my gosh.

Rachel Berger (12:43)

But you're here.

Moderator (12:44)

We're so happy, and you're so good at so many other things.

Rachel Berger (12:48)

Ryan was like, do you have a Reddit? And I was like, I normally just, like, creep, but I do think I have a login, so. Hi. What's up, everyone?

Keener (13:01)

Rachel burger.

Moderator (13:04)

We're here.

Rachel Berger (13:04)

We're here. I did not catch anything you were talking about. So. Hi.

KK (13:19)

We're just kind of recapping the episode and giving our thoughts and who we think did it, and we want to hear what other people. Who they think did it.

Keener (13:27)

Yeah. And who do you think did it, Rachel?

Rachel Berger (13:29)

Yeah, honestly. Honestly, I have no idea.

Keener (13:36)

Yeah, we're just talking about episode four and who we think. And some people think it's Howard, and we're just talking about passageways and Cinda knowing the people across the hall from Charles. Lots of different things. And talking about how season one kind of, you know, goes into season two with a lot of things in the sense, such as the neighbor of Charles and the. The daughter played with, you know, with.

Moderator (14:03)

Yeah.

Keener (14:04)

Things like that. So we were talking about that, how those things kind of go and which. What a writer, really? You gotta. Gotta kind of let the flow go, right?

Rachel Berger (14:12)

No, I literally am having flashbacks to like the writer's room. I'm like, this is all what we talked about too. It's just like, did we show them?

Keener (14:19)

Yeah.

Rachel Berger (14:20)

Death. Do we go? Yeah, yeah.

Keener (14:22)

There's so many layers to it.

KK (14:24)

So if any questions for Rachel Berger, the writer of the episode, now's a great time to ask.

Keener (14:29)

Yes, let's do it, people.

Moderator (14:33)

We do have calm struggle on stage 318 3, who has been patiently waiting. So calm struggle. If you would like to unmute yourself to ask a question, give a theory, the floor is yours.

Calm Struggle (14:46)

Oh, my goodness. I am not. I am not one of the people on the show out on the street with a sign, but I feel like those people right now. And someone. Someone recently posted a combination of the word arconia and catacombs. And I was like, oh, my God, we just made up a word, our catacombs. But it could be arconia.

Rachel Berger (15:11)

You guys.

Keener (15:12)

What? That's hilarious. I love our catacombs. Because then you could throw cat the cats in there for Howard.

Ray Marie (15:20)

What were you saying, Rachel?

Rachel Berger (15:21)

Oh, I was like. We actually like had Oliver call it the Arcatacomes at one point, like when we were having fun. You are. Wow.

Keener (15:29)

About that.

Rachel Berger (15:31)

That.

Keener (15:31)

And that's from a writer herself.

Calm Struggle (15:33)

Well, vibing. Vibing with the Oliver line. That's wonderful.

Rachel Berger (15:39)

And then we were like, he probably shouldn't be podcasting about this,

Calm Struggle (15:45)

so thank you. I don't know how useful I'm going to be, and I apologize to my fellow redditors and everyone, but I'm. Because I have like a million questions and I'm realizing that most of them are like, what's the answer? You know, like.

Ray Marie (15:55)

So I.

Calm Struggle (15:56)

So if I ask you, you know, what does want to ask Jan or what is he going to tell her? But that's not a fair question because then you'd be giving it away.

Keener (16:06)

So, yeah, Rachel goes deaf to those kind of questions. She just goes deaf.

Rachel Berger (16:11)

I. I spaced out.

Keener (16:13)

But yeah, can't hear a thing.

Rachel Berger (16:16)

Listen, I. The good news about it being episode four is that there it's good that everybody has questions and more than likely they'll get answered. You know what I mean? So it's like, you don't want me to tell you. You guys, you really.

Keener (16:30)

Is there anything could think of from. From any of the episodes or, you know, you want to ask that?

Calm Struggle (16:36)

You know, I so this is going to be another sort of broad question, but it doesn't. It seems like it might be in fair play, but. And please correct me, mute me if I'm wrong or whatever, but have we seen the killer? Lenora? Have they been in an episode of season two? I know that's kind of. Also, I don't think we.

Keener (17:03)

I don't even think. I don't think we should say that. Or we could say that. Because I'll tell you something. I mean, we have seen. We've seen a lot of people, but there might be more. Who knows? You know, there might be more coming. I don't know. I've only. I'm only on episode four. Right, exactly.

Guest 2 (17:20)

And I'll.

Calm Struggle (17:21)

And, And. And the rest of my questions will just annoy everyone and see, they have questions like, why are the jewelries in the book?

Rachel Berger (17:27)

What happened?

Calm Struggle (17:28)

You know, this and that. Somebody else go.

Rachel Berger (17:31)

I will say without saying, is that, obviously this is a TV show and we want you to follow along. So just follow along. Oh, my God.

Calm Struggle (17:42)

So we haven't seen them.

Rachel Berger (17:46)

Just kidding. Yeah, I'm just. I don't know. Yeah, it's hard to answer without saying anything, but it's just, you know, there is a method to the madness, you

Calm Struggle (17:56)

know, I definitely trust that. Thank you so much.

Keener (18:02)

Did anyone else feel like a silence? This is what KK realized before it even came on. Kk, I'm very impressed with you. You did. He did say.

KK (18:12)

What did I say?

Keener (18:13)

Oh, I can't remember what you said now.

KK (18:16)

Good story, Keener.

Keener (18:18)

My bad. Well, what happened at the very end of this. Whatever happened at the very end of this episode.

KK (18:27)

Oh, so are you referring to when you talk to.

Keener (18:30)

Oh, oh, no, I'm talking to KK. Are you?

KK (18:34)

the very end?

Keener (18:35)

Either one of you? Either one of you. I mean, we've done our episode four, spoiler alert, so we can say the whole episode.

Rachel Berger (18:41)

So, like, the very last image we see of Charlie.

Moderator (18:44)

Yes.

Rachel Berger (18:45)

Yeah.

Moderator (18:46)

Oh, yeah.

Rachel Berger (18:47)

To Jan. Jan, right. My favorite lady.

Keener (18:51)

Yes.

Rachel Berger (18:52)

See that?

Keener (18:52)

And she's back. And KK now I can tell you. What did you. What did you say before that even

KK (18:58)

episode, I think in episode one of the podcast, I wondered if they would bring back Jan as kind of like a Silence of the Lamb thing.

Rachel Berger (19:06)

Yeah.

KK (19:07)

Hannibal Lecter to get her idea and thoughts on who the murderer could be. And lo and behold, our favorite psychopath.

Keener (19:16)

She's very.

KK (19:17)

She's a very charming psychopath.

Rachel Berger (19:18)

I mean, you could tell when we fall in love with characters because it's like, we want. Want to see them too. You know, we talked about Teddy and Theo, and it's like, yeah, anytime we can get Nathan Lane on screen, let's do it.

Keener (19:30)

Right?

Rachel Berger (19:31)

And. And now my favorite thing about Jan is, like, she is gonna let her freak. Like, she's not pretending anymore. So, like, you're gonna see a different side of her now, because it's like, now I'm, like, fully realized as my serial killer self, so I can just, like, be me, you know?

KK (19:48)

She's leaning into it, Right?

Keener (19:50)

Exactly. She could just be herself and. Yeah. And, you know.

Rachel Berger (19:54)

Exactly. And she has so much knowledge to give, you know?

Keener (19:58)

Yes. Stuff to give. Oh, we're gonna see what. We're gonna see what knowledge she gives.

Rachel Berger (20:03)

Yeah. Well, I mean, I just feel like we wouldn't show her at the end of the episode and not follow that up.

Keener (20:08)

Oh, I hope not. God, how mean would that. I mean. Yeah, that would be a buzz kill. I'm gonna do that. So. Yes. So I. This episode, I loved it. There were so many things, like you said, you brought back Teddy Demas and Lucy.

KK (20:26)

We got to meet Lucy, Charles's sort of stepdaughter.

Rachel Berger (20:30)

Yeah.

Keener (20:31)

And the sexy bassoonist came back.

Rachel Berger (20:37)

I feel like we have all the callbacks of all the greatest hits.

Keener (20:40)

All the greatest hits.

Rachel Berger (20:42)

You're so true.

Keener (20:44)

Does anybody have.

Moderator (20:45)

Come on.

Keener (20:46)

Step up to the plate. Step up.

Ray Marie (20:47)

I just want to say for all those. All the new folks that are joining, we have with us writer of. Of this episode of episode four, Rachel Berger, here with us. And so if you do have any questions about the writing process or the writer's room or the chaos of a zoom room, this would be a fun time to ask and talk about it. Otherwise, I think. I think there's a few people that just popped into the. The chat here.

Moderator (21:12)

There is. We have Redditor, if you'd like to unmute and ask your question.

Guest 1 (21:20)

Hi.

Rachel Berger (21:22)

Brilliant show. How much fun is working on it. How do you get to brainstorm your ideas and work together to collaborate to form such a cohesive masterpiece? First of all, your voice totally matches your avatar, and it was my favorite thing ever. It's fun.

Guest 1 (21:45)

It's.

Rachel Berger (21:45)

It's like we just don't know any better because, you know, we were writing in a zoom room during all the crazy stuff happening. So it's like, you know, we could follow the news or see what next strand of Omicron is gonna hit, or we can, you know, delve into murdering people. And I feel like it was A really fun distraction. And my favorite part about it is the fact that, like, all you guys are watching it and are like, oh, this is such a fun escapism show. And it's like, that's how we felt writing it. So it was very, like, surreal to have, like, wait, I feel underst. And I also feel like, because we were in Zoom rooms, like, we all have, like a deeper bond than I feel like when we do it in person. Like, we all actually enjoy going to events. Like, we're like, yeah, I'll see you. Whose house are we going to be at? And so it's really fun. And I think we got, like, a really fun camaraderie from it. We feel like we're like living in there. Yeah. I mean, any. Marty and Steve are just like a dream duo to write for. So it's like we have so much fun, like, thinking of jokes for them to say. And I think I said it on the podcast, but like, every so often Steve, like, will pop into the zoom and like, with his banjo and be like, here's a Diddy.

Calm Struggle (22:52)

I remember.

Rachel Berger (22:52)

We're all like, oh, my God, play more. So it's.

Moderator (22:56)

It's.

Rachel Berger (22:56)

Yeah, it's a lot of fun and.

Keener (22:59)

And Emmys, right, guys? Emmys.

Rachel Berger (23:01)

Yeah, those little things, right?

KK (23:03)

17 Emmy nominations for season one.

Moderator (23:07)

Yeah.

Rachel Berger (23:07)

No, it's a huge, huge collaborative effort. And the crazy part is it's like not a lot of us got to go to New York because we shot it in New York. So it's like a well oiled machine. And like we were already admiring it from afar and knew it looked amazing. So it's just like all the people that make this show happen, getting recognized is like what's more exciting, you know, it's not just. It's not just our little room. It's everybody, right?

Keener (23:31)

Thank you so much. Reg Her. That was great. Thank you. What a great question.

Moderator (23:37)

Thank you. And now we have ASTOC1970 on if you'd like to unmute yourself a stock

Keener (23:43)

look at that avatar.

Rachel Berger (23:44)

Not cool.

Moderator (23:48)

You do seem very doctoral.

Guest 3 (23:54)

Thanks for having me. Yeah, actually, episode four was awesome. It was jam packed with just so many details and so many twists and keeping the adventure going on that the thing that really stood out to me was the emotional development of the characters and their growth with Marty's character, with his son, and of course Lucy coming in. How did you guys in the writers room balance that out and make the decision really to bring in that a lot of that emotional growth in this particular episode. And again, it was unbelievable. Fabulous. I could watch it three or four more times and still feel like I'm not getting the layers.

Rachel Berger (24:39)

Aw. Well, you're, like, super nice. Yeah. I mean, the show. We always come back to what we originally pitched the show as, which was it's about lonely people coming together. So we do often get excited about storylines. And, you know, we had so much fun with the. Our catacombs. Like, what. Like, what's. What are they going to see during the peepholes? And, like, we, you know, we can get really crazy wackadoo because it's a comedy, but then, you know, through drafts and, like, okay, guys, we got that out of our system. Let's tone it down. Like, what are we actually trying to get out of the scene? And, you know, the emotional arcs are probably what fuels every episode. So it's like, we gotta make sure that we get those down right. And then, like, the comedy will find itself with, you know, within the scenario or within the characters. And I will say we have the brain behind it all, too, is Dan Fogelman will always pull us back. Be like, hey, guys, that's funny. But, like, where's the heart? We're like, yeah, you're right, you're right. We gotta. So it's. It's everybody's collaborative brains. It's every. You know, it's the masterwork of John, who is all things heart, all things comedy, and it's the master, Dan, who's like, all things heart and comedy. And when you put that together, kind of what you get, you know, we're constantly reminded, like, that's funny, but let's go. Let's pull it back. And we're like, fine. He can just be in a. He can just be on a peloton, but not wearing a onesie. He doesn't have.

Keener (26:09)

That's funny. Yeah, it already. What a great question, too. Thank you.

Moderator (26:15)

It is.

Keener (26:16)

I always say this to you guys. I love the different genres that you. Because it makes the layers. Is the comedy and the drama and the relationships and the heartfelt moments. Yeah. And it's.

Moderator (26:27)

Yeah.

Keener (26:28)

And it's the. The crime. Crime story. And it's just.

Spider Legs (26:30)

All.

Keener (26:31)

Just wonderful. And it is all put together with heart. That's what makes it so great. I think for everyone.

Moderator (26:39)

It's so true. And there's actually. This leads to a really great question from the comments that I wanted to ask for you, Rachel. From who asks? Rachel, thank you for joining us. I know the writers can change from episode to episode, so I Was wondering if you could talk about how the writing team communicates to map out characters plot lines and ensure the episodes run together so smoothly.

Rachel Berger (27:04)

Yeah, I mean, I feel like every room is different, but what we did is, like, we're usually as a group brainstorming together, and we're constantly working as a unit to get to the final goal, which is obviously, like, episode 10. And when you see writers, like, saying, like, how I got written by with Valentina Garza, that just means, like, we are in charge with the execution of this particular episode. So, like, we were given. Okay, like, this episode, we want, like, Oliver and Will to, like, Oliver's going to be questioning his purpose, and, you know, he's with Teddy, and then Will's wanting him. So it's like, how do we get from Teddy to Will? What's that arc? And then we knew we wanted to bring Lucy in, so that was servicing. You know, I always want to call them Marty and Steve, and I know that's not their names, but I'm like, Marty and Steve Charles's story arc. And so we kind of all collectively talk about, like, what needs to happen, because it's like, yes, we have the arc of what's happening in episode four, but episode four services a larger arc that is the whole season. So that's why, like, when you just see written by, that just means, like, we were just in charge of. Of execution, executing just this little moment in time. And my personal thing, like, writing with Valentina, we were just going back and forth like, she would write an act, I would write an act, and then we'd constantly be like, re editing work and kind of, you know, and our voice is the voice of the show. So it's like, oh, Marty would say that and Steve would say that. And. Yeah, and it's like everybody has their hands in it. So, like. And then we'll turn in a draft, and then as a group, we'll go through pitch different jokes, you know, and sometimes we'll be in the middle of writing, which happens quite often. And then they're like, hey, we're going to call you guys back in the big room. So we're actually going to move this character out of that episode and into this one. So we need to make that work. And you're like, okay, great. We're going to make it work. So it's just a constant revolving door of, like, what needs to happen. And. Yeah, and it all comes together in the end. So you just trust the process.

KK (29:13)

We're adding in a volcano to this Episode.

Rachel Berger (29:16)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Keener (29:17)

Don't tell. So many great questions and comments. That's really great. And, Rachel, thank you for just being so open to everything. You're just saying. So really, people are getting not just educated, but interested. You know, they're so interested in it, I would say.

Rachel Berger (29:36)

I feel like I'm ranting. I'm like, am I saying too much? Am I not saying, no, Your rant is.

Keener (29:41)

Everyone else is like, oh, please do more.

Moderator (29:48)

Absolutely. And, Rachel, this is a bit of a hard question, but another one from the comments from Hannah Lemp. A question for Rachel. Who is your favorite character to write for?

Rachel Berger (30:00)

Oh, that's not hard. My favorite character to write for is Oliver because I feel like he's my spirit animal, but he's my favorite to write for because you get to, like, say the most ridiculous thing. Like, if you have Selena playing kind of like the dry, sarcastic, like, I feel like it was easy for me to write her because we have similar humor, and Charles is kind of like the straight man in the scene, so it's like, okay, I'm gonna bring us all back to earth here. But, like, with Oliver, you know, we have him throwing a knife in the ceiling. Only, like, we were like, his energy could do that, you know, so. And I. I've been a huge fan of Martin Short for my life, I guess, because he's been around forever, and so, like, it's him as a human, but also his comedic timing and the way he delivers. I'm just like, yeah, bring it on.

KK (30:51)

Yeah.

Keener (30:52)

Yeah. Rachel, remember Jiminy Glick?

Rachel Berger (30:56)

Yes.

Keener (30:58)

YouTube, if anyone wants to look that up. Martin Short. Jiminy Click. Oh, just brilliant.

Rachel Berger (31:06)

Iconic.

Keener (31:07)

Yeah, iconic. Exactly. So anybody here. Any other comments that you want to read for us or.

Moderator (31:18)

Yes, absolutely. So this one comes from Icy Redrose, since we have the writer of the season finale. Question about the text message. Did only Oliver and Charles get a text? So far, it seems like Mabel did not get one.

Rachel Berger (31:36)

I know we talked about it, so I actually don't know how to answer that, because it's like. I don't know. Like, it's. You're so far into it that it's like. I don't know if that's gonna be a thing, but I think we're past. I know that Oliver and Charles got it. I don't even know what happened to Mabel's phone, to be honest with you. So I don't know.

Keener (31:55)

Actually, yeah, it was due for an upgrade.

Rachel Berger (31:58)

We did know that it was gonna be carried over into the. Into the second Season. So it was like crafting, like, what was said. We wanted it to be, like, cryptic enough, but that scene was really fun to write. Yeah.

Moderator (32:13)

Yeah. It was a perfect season finale.

Rachel Berger (32:16)

Oh, thank you.

Moderator (32:17)

There are just so many cliffs. You're like, this is the cliff. It's the end. And then another cliff and another one.

Rachel Berger (32:24)

Yeah.

Keener (32:25)

More and more.

KK (32:26)

Yeah.

Rachel Berger (32:28)

Matching Martin Short's energy.

Moderator (32:40)

Well, if anyone would like to come up to share theories, ask questions or anything like that, please hit the hand icon on the lower nav to raise your hand for a chance to come up to speak to our esteemed guests. Guests today.

Keener (32:54)

Yes. Rachel Berger, episode four, writer.

Rachel Berger (32:58)

And listen, I will say if you guys aren't, like, wanting to, I do know that there's people that, like, look at the messaging board, be like, hey, they think it's this, so we'll read it.

Moderator (33:10)

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But we do have Mandy Coup 338 on if you'd like to unmute. Hi.

Guest 2 (33:19)

First of all, of course, huge fan. I absolutely loved the last episode. I thought Lucy's dialogue was incredible. That was one of the first times I didn't, like, cringe at a young person talking on a TV show. It was so perfect. I really loved it.

Rachel Berger (33:34)

She's just too cool.

Moderator (33:35)

Oh, my God.

Guest 2 (33:36)

Way cooler than me, that's for sure.

Rachel Berger (33:38)

Yeah, no, afraid of her, for sure.

Guest 2 (33:40)

I was wondering in the writers room, because I was actually looking back at the season one, kind of like murder board on the Reddit page, and it's funny to look back now that we know it happened. Some of the theories seem so silly, but I remember looking at it at the time being like, yeah, this is it. So with kind of the way the show is designed in the writers room, do you ever think, oh, this red herring might get picked up by Reddit or by conversation? Does that go into the writing process where, you know, people every week, instead of binging it, are making up theories and maybe. Do you ever try to throw them off or try to maybe purposely not throw them off?

Rachel Berger (34:17)

Yeah, I mean, I think that just comes with part of writing mystery as its own genre anyway. Like. Like, the whole purpose of it being a mystery is that, like, red herrings are a part of it. And I will say, like, sometimes you don't realize you're doing it just because that's the way the story is going. But, yeah, you know, we put things in on purpose. You know, we're aware.

Guest 2 (34:38)

Thank you so much.

Rachel Berger (34:39)

Yeah, of course.

Ray Marie (34:40)

I was going to say, we. We talked to Rob and Matteo.

Rachel Berger (34:44)

Yeah.

Ray Marie (34:45)

Yesterday and they. They wrote episode five. And. And they. Or at least Rob said that he frequently is, like, checking.

Rachel Berger (34:56)

I cannot tell you what his handle is, but I do remember, like, we would be in the morning, he'd be like, so Reddit thinks it's this. And he's like, I kind of wanna. And he's like, I kind of want to just throw a random theory just to see what they think.

Ray Marie (35:10)

That would have been so funny.

Rachel Berger (35:11)

He's so funny. Yeah, he's.

Ray Marie (35:13)

He agreed to join us next week, so we'll be back next week with Rob and possibly Mateo as well.

Rachel Berger (35:19)

He. Love. Yeah.

Ray Marie (35:21)

And then we'll all know his handle.

Moderator (35:23)

Yes.

Keener (35:23)

We're able to say. Yeah. Hey, Rachel. They.

Guest 2 (35:25)

Yeah.

Keener (35:27)

I don't remember. Was it Ben who said anagrams as a clue? Just. Just. Any thoughts on that?

Rachel Berger (35:34)

He said anagrams this year. He said.

Keener (35:37)

He said anagrams.

Ray Marie (35:38)

No, I think that was Noah.

Keener (35:39)

Oh, is it Noah? It was Noah.

Rachel Berger (35:44)

Listen, there probably are some, but I know that we got a kick out of them last year, so he might have just been saying that because we loved all.

KK (35:54)

He's playing us.

Rachel Berger (35:55)

I could be lying now, too, to throw you off, you know, I don't know.

KK (36:00)

So many lies.

Keener (36:02)

I like to call Noah Hona.

Rachel Berger (36:04)

Yeah, he's great.

Moderator (36:07)

More cliffs,

Rachel Berger (36:10)

guys.

Keener (36:11)

Yeah.

Moderator (36:12)

Another question from the comments from Hannah Lemp. Angel and Flip Flops has been stuck in my head for the last two days.

Guest 2 (36:20)

Yeah.

Moderator (36:21)

Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about how the song was created and whose idea it was?

Rachel Berger (36:26)

Yeah, I know we spoke about this on the podcast, so I can't take credit for it. That was Kirker Butler, who was 1. I think he wrote episode nine this year. So hopefully you'll get to. You can ask him that if he ever comes on here. But he. I don't know exactly when the pitch happened, but. But we were talking about. Because he also was really into the Brazos of last year, you know, like the 80s fun action sequence that we wanted to do with it. So, you know, he gets really into, like, the sub jokes and angel and Flip Flops came from his brilliant brain. And then Steve really liked the idea and was like, yeah, I'm gonna do it. And then he started, like, writing kind of like little jingles for it. And like I said he would, like, pop in the writer's room, and we're like, oh, my God, please play more. Keep going. And ye. And then it was this really funny. We're like, kirker, did you just, like, write a song with Steve?

Keener (37:22)

Martin.

Rachel Berger (37:22)

And he's like. And we did this with Kristin Newman last year when, like, Sting was, like, singing a jingle that she wrote about Tim Kono. And we're like, kristin, did you just write a song with Sting? Like, it's really fun. But, yeah, we delighted it. It ended up being, like, exactly as catchy as we thought it would be. But I also think it's, like, in my head all the time, too, so I'm with you there.

Moderator (37:43)

It's epic. Absolutely. It needs a Spotify release.

Rachel Berger (37:46)

It really does.

KK (37:48)

It hit number 83 in German.

Rachel Berger (37:50)

Yeah.

Moderator (37:51)

Yeah.

Rachel Berger (37:51)

It's so funny. And it also was also. I mean, like, there was a method to it, too, where it's like, oh, and that explains why he's able to afford this apartment. So we're like, yeah.

Keener (38:00)

Wait, why 83? I know. It's, like, just. Any particular thing with that number for you or just. It was just a funny number, honestly.

Rachel Berger (38:08)

It might have just been for the comedy of it. But that would be more of a Kirker question because it cracked the 100. It cracked the 100 again. If you ever talk to him, he has a whole backstory about it of, like, yeah, you know, he tried to tour, but then, like, something happened with the Berlin Wall. And you're like, what?

Keener (38:28)

Yeah, we did last year. So we were gonna catch him this year.

Rachel Berger (38:31)

Yeah.

Keener (38:32)

Yeah.

Rachel Berger (38:32)

Ask him all about angel and Flip Flops.

Moderator (38:33)

He'll love it.

Keener (38:35)

Do it.

KK (38:37)

Rachel, I have one super quick question.

Rachel Berger (38:39)

Yeah.

KK (38:40)

In this episode, they show the filming of Brazos. They're outside filming some scenes. Was that the actual crew from. From the show?

Ray Marie (38:47)

Murders.

KK (38:48)

And only murders in the building, like, in the background. Do you know?

Rachel Berger (38:52)

You know, I don't, because I wasn't on set, but normally. Normally they still hire people, like, as background actors to do it, so. But I can't speak to that because I wasn't on set. But I kind of. I was wondering the same thing. Like, do I know them? But I personally recognize. I personally didn't recognize anybody, so I'm gonna say no.

Keener (39:13)

KK And I were talking about, you know, what if we just plopped up? We were just sitting there. The next time,

Rachel Berger (39:22)

Honestly, do it.

KK (39:23)

The next zirconia meeting, you might see us eating cheese.

Rachel Berger (39:28)

He was, like, in the Master Easter Egg. Oh, my God, I would love it.

Keener (39:36)

It's funny.

KK (39:37)

Who are those two people who keep looking at the camera?

Rachel Berger (39:39)

Well, actually, fun fact. Last season, John's assistant Megan was in an episode as, like, an Easter egg during the tattoo scene where they had to Reshoot last minute. So she like got to work the counter and like, you see here, and we're like, Megan. Oh, sometimes that happens.

KK (39:58)

Oh, fun.

Moderator (39:59)

Yeah.

Keener (40:00)

Oh, you know, someone was talking about the Easter eggs in the, in the windows. Did you see that? Each episode there's something. Do you know about Rachel. You want to elaborate on that?

Rachel Berger (40:10)

Well, it's funny because it's like, I do know about it, but honestly, I don't always catch them. Sometimes I have to like go on Reddit to hear what, like where you guys found it.

KK (40:17)

I think they're very subtle.

Keener (40:20)

Yeah, there's one too. I'm sure many know. Super fan. And she's. She went narrated into all of them. She was so excited about it. And then there was three jigsaw puzzles and three pieces and one was missing or something. And. And it was.

KK (40:33)

Loved it.

Keener (40:34)

Yeah.

Rachel Berger (40:34)

Yeah. They get really, it's really cool to see exactly what they decide to choose. But I remember last year, the one obviously that I caught was like episode eight, I want to say, when it was super fans and they had fans on the, on, on the roof. And I was like, oh, I got it.

Keener (40:53)

So if you're ever looking, we're talking about little, little picture things of things like in the, in the windows, in

KK (40:59)

the beginning, in the opening credits.

Rachel Berger (41:02)

It kind of gives you a clue about what it's gonna, I think what the main part of that episode would be about.

Keener (41:08)

Yeah, Go back and look and you can see now that would be.

Rachel Berger (41:11)

Yeah, know that. And I remember that being a calculated choice because like I was in the producer's office before we started this whole writing Jo, and like we were discussing fun things we could do and we're like, oh my God, what if we had a fun title sequence that did that? So it was like something that I know John and like the producers intended on doing and I'm glad that it executed really well.

Keener (41:32)

Yeah.

KK (41:33)

And people notice.

Keener (41:34)

People notice. Grab hold of it.

Rachel Berger (41:36)

We love it. We love Easter eggs.

KK (41:37)

It's fun.

Keener (41:38)

Yeah, we do too.

Moderator (41:43)

And Rachel, a lot of people on this episode's discussion thread were just, just raving about the Demus's return, that heart wrenching scene, seeing them fight. And a lot of questions came up about Theo's sign language because people were trying to translate to caption it, wondering if you what the process was like writing that dialogue. And also if there is a translation anywhere, because I think there are a lot of people on Reddit right now trying to sleuth some of some hints that may. They may have missed in that interaction now.

Rachel Berger (42:25)

Well, I will say the purpose of Demus's in this episode was strictly for, like, character building for them. So, like, the purpose of, like, the secret passageways and stuff was like, you know, what are the things you're not supposed to see? So that goes from, you know, the really, like, you know, Nina, them starting to have sex, and you're like, oh, we shouldn't see this. To, you know, a father and son having a fight, a gut wrenching argument, and then you're kind of left with like, well, now I feel bad for him, but I'm not supposed to feel bad. And, like, and you know it. We also wanted to humanize Theo because, you know, crazy stuff happened when he was younger and he's been like, sitting on this his whole life. And, you know, they're minor characters now in season two, but it's like, it was really fun to be able to kind of of expands, like, their journey. And it's like, what happens once they're like, they're not just villains anymore. Now they're like, people. And what are the repercussions of that? And we all were joking about how actually grave robbing is like, just a minor felony or it's like, you barely get in trouble. It's like, exactly what would happen if you get a slap on the wrist and, like, house arrest. So we were like, you go back to your life and then what? Like, you know, your business is done? Like, the relationship is strained. And like, I think, again, we talked about this on the podcast that, you know, a big theme this season is fatherhood. And, you know, Teddy and Theo are. They're really going through it right now, but it won't be the last you see of them. So. But I don't think there's any clues to that. And when you write him, it's just more like dialogue. And then I think he translates it in the way that sign ASL is. But he wasn't a significant mar. Like, I think in episode seven, when it was his perspective of the episode, it was more stylized of like, we're gonna write in italics when it's Theo. So we know that that's a silent part of the show. You know, you kind of do little tricks like that in the script, but this one was just like a conversation, and you didn't really need to understand it if you didn't, because you're not supposed to see it, you know, know,

Moderator (44:37)

love it. I love. I. I just love the layers of thought that you put into this. Like, it's just so wonderful. Thank you so much for that. Rachel.

Guest 2 (44:46)

Yeah.

Moderator (44:46)

There are more questions from, from the comments. Does everyone still have time? I did want to do a quick time check before we get into them.

Ray Marie (44:53)

Thank you. Yes. We will have to do a hard out in 15.

Moderator (44:57)

Okay. Okay, I will, I will try to get through these quickly. Agent Double Zero Negative asks. I want to say I'm loving the show so far and it's not even my usual style of show. I watch, I adore the whole intergenerational jokes that happen between Selena, Martin and Steve. How much of that is scripted or is any of it improvised? Loved. Again. I love the work you are doing.

Rachel Berger (45:31)

I think they would be the first to say that they're not like, they're really old school professionals where like they really want to keep what's on the script. Like, I even think when we had Jane lynch, like, we always give them like, again, I wasn't on set, but they always like, do what's on the script and then they get a free one. Like, okay, now you guys go. And a lot of times they'll, they'll just stick to it because they're like, I don't want to improv. Or they'll like kind of change it up during rehearsal. There's always a writer on set. So John or whoever else wrote the episode will usually be on set. And you're pitching alternate jokes. Like, I don't know if I talked about this last year, but I remember like episode 10, I was watching from a stream at my house and they were like doing the roof scene rehearsal and you know, Marty and Steve are going back and forth and they're like, like, the, the pattern for this is not right. Like, does this make sense? And like they were trying to get a grip on it. And I'm like on the phone texting John. I'm like, have him say that. Have him say this. Like he goes and runs and do it. So like, there's a lot of things that changes in the moment. Sometimes with like punch jokes. Rob is one of the masters. Rob and Mateo are like masters at this where, like they'll give you a bunch of alts in the same line and you kind of just pick which one kind of works with the scene. And then sometimes John will text them and be like, hey guys, I need a new joke for that. And like, they will, you know, be on it because that's just their brilliant brains work. But I would say majority of it is written. I don't think they do too much improv is the question that I was just answering.

Moderator (47:10)

It's so good, because I think that there are a lot of people that think that there would be a lot more of improving just because. Because you know who they are short, you know? So it's. Having that level of insight is just so appreciated. So thank you so much.

Rachel Berger (47:24)

Yeah. No, like, someone stop me. I will say, too. Like, they're just naturally, like. It's kind of a beautiful thing. I'm like, want their friendship when they're older because they just, like. Even when they're not, like, acting, if we're just, like, at a party with them, they, like, are on, like, their back and forth with each other is so natural.

Moderator (47:43)

And it's just.

Rachel Berger (47:43)

Just like, no, Marty, you have to say this now. And you're like, oh, my God. You're, like, doing it all right. Like, they're just constantly, like, in each other's brains that I just think even if they were improving, it just is so natural to them, you know, they're great.

Keener (47:57)

Yeah.

Moderator (47:59)

Yes. Beyond great. Okay, Rachel, I'm gonna ask a question. I'm gonna combine two questions because they

Rachel Berger (48:06)

kind of lend into each other.

Moderator (48:07)

The first is from. Okay. Investigator 8955 5, whose flair is tie Dye Guy, which I love. Hi. Thank you for being with us. Quick question. Did you already know where you were going with season two while you were writing season one, or did you have to write some bits just cryptic enough to work with whatever would be decided on later? And similarly, Hal Be the Half asks if you know what will happen in season three be and if there are plot points being set up now for a later season.

Rachel Berger (48:44)

Well, I can only really speak to how my process was in the finale. And I know that, like, we had, like, John's favorite thing to say about the finale was, like, it'll be easy, because these things just have to happen. And I'm like, john, that's nice. And it was just, like, a really funny bit that he would do. And the setup to that. We. We knew we didn't want to be so in your face on what happened, because then we're, like, pigeonholed to, like, servicing.

Keener (49:14)

Like.

Rachel Berger (49:15)

Like, if we were like, jan does this, and, like. Like, if we had a huge cliffhanger. And it's like, well, now we have to justify, like, why that was there and, like, what's happening? And it was, like, really liberating to kind of just start from a fresh slate, because I remember season one, we had a pilot, so there was things that it was like, okay, why was Ty going up the stairs? And we're like, I don't know, you know, like, brainstorming. So we knew going into season two, we wanted to give ourselves more freedom, you know? And I remember, like, why did Tim have the garbage bag? It's like, why would he. It was like, oh, it's an egg. You know? And, like, storylines, I feel like, kind of got not necessarily written around, but we had to incorporate things to justify them versus, like, okay, we'll give you some things that can be easily, like, figured out later. So, like, the text message obviously is like, a carryover, and it was just, like, subtle enough that it's easy to kind of fit in the narrative we wanted to tell instead of being like, oh, it has to be Jan because of this, you know, but there's always a lot of discussion. And I know that John. It's all in his brain, so we just take his lead on it. And then, you know, going into season three, it's going to be kind of. I would just say wait till. So that. Wait till episode 10 and find out

Keener (50:35)

like a true writer.

Moderator (50:40)

But I understand it's gotta be so difficult, too, because you are already probably in episode 10 and you have all these questions coming your way. You have to, like, siphon that out and really only hit the wall of episode four. So thank you for doing gymnastics.

Rachel Berger (50:59)

I was telling them last year it was so much easier to talk about because everything had happened and I was like, anything. And now I'm like, they completely edit up until the very last minute. Like, I don't know. With some episodes, you know, like, where are we? Yeah, I don't know.

KK (51:16)

Kat was already out of the bag last year.

Rachel Berger (51:18)

Yeah, I could say Jen did it. Right?

Moderator (51:26)

I mean, it's so true. As. As a. As a binger. This season has been rough. Yeah.

Rachel Berger (51:35)

It's just started, too.

KK (51:37)

Yeah.

Keener (51:40)

One at a time,

Moderator (51:43)

one episode at a time, one week at a time.

Rachel Berger (51:46)

But even then, too, because I'm like, oh, yeah, episode three we can talk about. But I'm like, but did they edit something out of episode three that they put in a later episode?

Moderator (51:56)

Goodness, I didn't think about that.

Rachel Berger (51:57)

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, there's some things that I know were. Because I remember writing them or talking about them, and I'm like, I don't know if we got rid of it or if it's like, later. So it's like, I don't even want to talk about it.

Keener (52:08)

You know, Rachel's trying to Say, she is sweating.

Rachel Berger (52:12)

I'm chilling. It's fine.

Moderator (52:16)

It's a good thing we are. No video off right now.

Keener (52:24)

All right.

Moderator (52:25)

Those are all the questions, because I combined a couple of them.

Ray Marie (52:28)

Great.

KK (52:28)

They're good questions.

Moderator (52:30)

Yeah, they're really, really great questions. And I. I have to say, like, being a Redditor and having the Reddit community here today, like, you even saying that the writers come and check fan theories, I think is, like, extremely validating for a lot of people and just made a lot of. Of days, weeks, years.

Rachel Berger (52:51)

I mean, listen, it delights us. You know what I mean? I'm like, like, sometimes we're so far. Like, that's actually a really good idea.

KK (53:00)

I'm gonna write that down.

Keener (53:02)

Writing that down.

Moderator (53:03)

It's what we're always saying here at Red. We're like, come, brainstorm, get ideas, get inspired. You know, that's.

Rachel Berger (53:10)

Yeah.

Moderator (53:11)

And.

Rachel Berger (53:12)

And, I mean, we had episode eight last year with the super fans, and that was us not even knowing what the show was going to be. But we're like, you know, every podcast has its own, like, super fans. And then we're like, yeah, okay. And it was like, exactly. Our relationship with Reddit, we're like,

Keener (53:29)

rachel, that's what's so great about the show is really. There's so many things true to form. It's just. I mean, everything. The reboot, you know, it just all. Everything's funny.

Rachel Berger (53:40)

Yeah. Yeah. We have fun with it.

Keener (53:42)

Yeah.

Moderator (53:43)

Yep. Calm struggle. I love your latest comment. It says, one Reddit rabbit hole at a time.

Rachel Berger (53:48)

Exactly. Exactly. I almost feel like, like, you guys always ask questions, like, what. It's like in the writer's room, and I feel like you guys are doing that yourselves. You know, it's like everybody's like, if we connect this with this. And I'm like, yeah, that's, like, kind of how our days go. It's like sometimes, like, I remember like. Like, the why Tim had the Rings was like, a huge discussion we had last year. And then it's like you get lost. You sucked into the why of it, and then you're like, how is it nighttime already? Were we just talking about the same topic all day? It was great. Great. It's a lot of fun.

Keener (54:18)

Yeah. Those rabbit holes are deep.

Rachel Berger (54:20)

Yeah, they get deep.

Moderator (54:22)

They are. Well, we have intelligent food. 273 on. This may be our last question, so feel free to unmute yourself when you're ready. Intelligent.

Rachel Berger (54:31)

Hello.

Guest 1 (54:32)

Hello.

Rachel Berger (54:32)

Good. No pressure or anything.

Guest 1 (54:34)

Is this like a Q A or something?

Rachel Berger (54:38)

I just hear like really confused. It's a Q and A.

Moderator (54:46)

It's, it's a open forum for what

Guest 1 (54:48)

is, what is your opinion opinion. If you know this, like what is your opinion on the like Bianca Devin's case? Like I watched a video on her case and it made and it kind of like felt like and it went into depth on her life and I feel like I relate to her like my younger self related to her in a way that like there's a lot like I feel like what is your opinion on like the Bianca Devins case if you know it?

Rachel Berger (55:18)

I actually don't know it, so I don't think I have an opinion on it.

Guest 1 (55:24)

If you're interested and you should really search it up on like YouTube. There's a really good in depth video. There's a really good in depth video on it and it goes into her life and it just, it's so good. It's really, it's done pretty well. I really highly recommend you check it out.

Rachel Berger (55:41)

Yeah, yeah. I mean we research stuff all the time so I'm sure it'll pop up. I'm just personally haven't been familiar with that and I feel bad about that. But yeah, it's all good. Okay.

Moderator (55:50)

So much intelligent food for the.

Keener (55:54)

Intelligent food for thought. Entire food for thought with that one.

Moderator (56:00)

Yes, exactly.

Keener (56:02)

Yeah.

Moderator (56:02)

Okay, that was not, not the last question. We do have a couple more raised hands though, so.

Rachel Berger (56:08)

Sure.

Moderator (56:09)

I'm sending out a couple of invites to see if anyone wants to come on for the last one.

Keener (56:14)

Come on stage.

Moderator (56:15)

Yeah, come on stage. All right, Spider legs, you are on if you'd like to unmute.

Keener (56:23)

Oh, spider legs. Nice. Oh, a little kangaroo. I know, alpha, getting some sun or something.

Rachel Berger (56:37)

Can you hear me?

Keener (56:38)

Yeah, spider legs.

Moderator (56:39)

Yeah.

Spider Legs (56:40)

So just give a bit of background. Yeah, Spider legs here. I'm 50 year old male, calling in from Manchester, UK. One thing that really, really interests me about serial killers is the Mickey and Mallory thing, the Natural Born Killers thing. And when I read that book, it absolutely blew my mind. And all right, this might be going a bit off topic here, but Ryan Giggs is a footballer for Manchester United and he could not be anything other than a natural born footballer. And you know when you meet somebody who you come across and they might be a natural born cashier, you know, he's just really good at the job. And I hate to say it, but Mickey and Mallory were just really good at their job. Doing what they do. And I know this isn't about glorifying serial killers and all that, but People just seem to find their natural vocation, and Mickey and Mallory really did. Do you not feel that?

Rachel Berger (57:47)

Well, I don't know who you're specifically talking about, but I know because Jan, like, we talked a lot about delighting in, like, jam, becoming who she really was, because that's who she is. So it's like, when she finally is, like, outed, she's, like, cool. I can just let, like, be my murderous self. So we're not necessarily, like, focusing on serial killers, but we do. We watch all the docs and all, like, the true crime stuff about them. But, yeah, she. She's a delightful character.

Keener (58:12)

I believe Brad Pitt and Juliet Lewis did a movie with the.

Spider Legs (58:17)

Juliet Lewis was in it.

Keener (58:19)

Julia Lewis and Brad Pitt.

Ray Marie (58:20)

Woody Harrelson.

Spider Legs (58:22)

Yeah, Woody Harry, the director.

Keener (58:27)

Yeah.

Spider Legs (58:27)

Honestly, I urge you to watch the movie and if you can, pick up the book, because it deals a lot in fate. And it was like they knew what their fate was. They knew that this was what they were destined to be. And you know what? They were the best at what they could be. And, yeah, fair enough. They chose the wrong profession, but I think there's a little bit of something.

Keener (58:51)

Wait, I'm gonna segue that into saying Rachel Berger isn't her right profession by writing and writing.

Rachel Berger (58:58)

Yeah.

Keener (58:58)

Only murders.

Rachel Berger (59:00)

Jan feels the same. She thinks she was, I think. Like, I don't know if she had. We had her say that in the finale last year, but it was just like, you know, Charles, like, you were. You were almost like, you know, you were my favorite person I've ever had to do this to. You know, like, the fact that she got away with it for so long, like, she's. Yeah,

Moderator (59:21)

well, those were. I would call those goodie bags for you, Rachel. Some research. Today.

Keener (59:31)

Spider legs.

Moderator (59:32)

We were talking about Reddit rabbit holes, and we just gave you a couple to dive into.

Rachel Berger (59:37)

Yeah. Real life in life.

Keener (59:39)

That was a kangaroo hole. Yeah.

Moderator (59:40)

Yeah, the kangaroo hole. But thank you all so much for joining. Rachel, KK Keener, all the team at Straw Hut the Sub. Really is so excited to have you, and I'm so honored to be able to do this with you all. Love the show, love everything that you all are doing.

KK (60:00)

And check out the podcast, only Murders in the Pod, and you can send us your thoughts and theories. I'll give you our email address, which is only murderstrawhutmedia.com we want to hear what you think.

Keener (60:12)

Yeah. Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much.

Moderator (60:16)

Yes, thank you. Have a Rachel, everyone.

Guest 2 (60:18)

Yes.

Rachel Berger (60:19)

Thank you.

Ray Marie (60:20)

Thank you so much.

Rachel Berger (60:20)

Rachel. Bye.

Keener (60:22)

All right. Bye, guys.