S2 E5: The Tell

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast: S2 E5 “The Tell” — Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 20, 2022
Hosts: Elizabeth Keener & Kevin Lawn
Featured Guests:

• Matteo Borghese & Rob Chbosky (Writers of Episode 5)
• John Hoffman (Showrunner & Co-Creator)
• Ryan Broussard (Plays Will Putnam)
• Arielle Shafir (Plays Ivan)

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Episode Overview

This episode peels back the curtain on Season 2, Episode 5 (“The Tell”) of Only Murders in the Building. The hosts guide listeners through the intricacies of the narrative, character motivations, and on-set antics, with insights from the episode’s writers, cast, and showrunner. The discussion spotlights the blend of comedy and mystery at the heart of the show, the meta-layers between fans and creators, and offers inside scoops on memorable scenes and creative choices.

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Key Discussion Points

Recap of Episode 5 Plot (01:32–02:51)

• Will Putnam narrates, setting up Oliver’s skills of observation and his favorite party game, “Son of Sam.”
• Charles consults Jan in prison for advice on Bunny’s murder, getting a tip to look for an “artist or storyteller.”
• Mabel grows closer with Alice, discovers a secret matchbook at her place—possibly a clue.
• At the Pickle Diner, Ivan provides a list of regulars and, later, security footage revealing Bunny’s last moments.
• The relationship between Mabel and Alice deepens despite suspicions, as Oliver faces a DNA revelation—a comedic and dramatic twist.

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Writing Season Two: Interacting with Fan Speculation (03:13–05:24)

• Matteo Borghese:

  “We definitely kind of, like, look at what the fans are saying and kind of consider it… it gave us an opportunity to kind of lead our audience in unexpected places and to different suspects.” (03:52)

• Rob Chbosky:

  “You want it to be different, but… the same but different kind of is... what you’re trying to do, and that’s never that simple.” (04:55)

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The “Son of Sam” Party Game (05:24–08:43)

• John Hoffman (Showrunner):

  "Oliver… had this other interesting aspect… I like to get to know when someone’s lying. I have a skill.” (05:32)

• Game is loosely based on “Mafia” or “Werewolf,” adapted for Oliver’s flair.
• Writers explain the fun and narrative value of using a murder mystery game to seed suspicion and character conflict.

Notable Quote:

• Matteo Borghese:

  “We just kind of want to honor that, his completely rational kind of emotional thinking.” (08:06)

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Martin Short’s Monologue & Creative Process (10:18–13:36)

• The energetic, one-take monologue by Martin Short during the Son of Sam game was largely as scripted—with input to maintain energy and comedic momentum.
• The writers reveal that Martin Short often ad-libs or adjusts material:

  “We really like about Oliver being… he works from his gut a little bit, and the kind of logic of his method, like, can’t really be questioned.” (08:06)

• The “Muppets Take Manhattan” line almost didn’t make it due to historical inaccuracy, but stayed in for comedic effect.

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The Depth of Alice’s Character & Fan Suspicions (13:36–16:59)

• Alice’s mysterious background and relationship to Mabel serve as both a red herring and a genuine development for Mabel’s character.
• Rob Chbosky:

  “We wanted to really think about that, like, what the promise is that Alice offers her.” (15:13)

• Ongoing speculation and theories swirl around Alice’s true motives.
• Hosts and writers engage with popular theories, debating the likelihood of Alice as murderer or red herring.

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Jan’s Return & Charles’ Silence of the Lambs Moment (17:00–20:38)

• Writers confirm “bringing Jan back” was an early season objective.
• Matteo Borghese:

  “Her attitude is basically like, we never broke up.” (17:34)

• The “Silence of the Jan” motif shapes Jan’s role as a informative, seductive, yet dangerous confidant.
• Rob Chbosky:

  “We loved right away that idea of ‘Hannibal Jan’...” (18:59)

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Exploring Oliver & Will’s Evolving Relationship (21:01–27:37)

• Writers and Ryan Broussard (Will) discuss deepening Will's character, his dynamic with Oliver, and the surprise DNA twist revealing Will is likely Teddy’s son.
• Ryan Broussard:

  “... getting to be around Martin, it’s like, yeah, I don’t have to pretend anymore to try to be his son… we have such a great relationship…” (23:29)

• On the Greek DNA reveal:

  “I looked up at John and I was like, are you. Are you kidding me? … Rough, rough life, you know?” (25:34)

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Comedy Riffs: Iran Contra Scandal Scene (28:40–33:03)

• The detailed, absurd back-and-forth about the Iran Contra scandal is born from the writers’ love of surreal, progressive comedy (like “The Simpsons’” rake gag).
• Rob Chbosky:

  “The dream is to force two comedy legends to just say nonsense names from 35 years ago at each other at a, you know, incredible clip.” (30:30)

• Marty and Steve’s comedic chemistry is highlighted, with Selena Gomez reacting in character as an exasperated straight man.

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Ivan, The Diner, and Neighborhood Ecology (33:55–37:29)

• Arielle Shafir:

  “...Ivan was an immigrant… part of a family diner... people will tell him their life story if they sat next to him on a bus or plane… Pickle Diner is a hub of sorts.” (35:10)

• Ivan’s role as an open, trusted confidant expands the show’s sense of community and gives writers narrative flexibility for drawing out secrets and connections.

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Theater/TV Duality & Cut Jokes (37:29–39:00)

• Discussions of the cast’s theater backgrounds, improvisational moments, and lines that made (or didn’t make) the cut.

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Clues, Secrets & Theories (39:40–41:03)

• Teasers about the meanings of “14” and “savage”—the writers cryptically suggest that answers will become clear by the season's end, with an allusion to a misremembered movie reference.
• Matteo Borghese:

  “After you watch all of the episodes… you'll come back to this podcast episode and you’ll hear me say this again… and you will nod and you'll be like, I understand exactly what he's talking about.” (39:55)

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Whodunit Summit—Fan & Host Theories (41:16–43:54)

Host Picks:

• Elizabeth: Howard, the cat guy, for suspiciously sweet behavior and physical comedy. (41:43)
• Kevin: Alice, as the possibly too-obvious new arrival with a suspicious backstory. (42:27)

Fan Theories:

• Alice is the murderer (Ryan M.), with a long theory tying art and inheritance to Bunny’s murder. (45:25)
• Theo as Bunny’s killer due to plot logic involving the secret passageways (Julie H.). (45:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• John Hoffman:

  “Just when [Oliver] thinks he’s… doing the thing that he does better than anybody… he realizes with probably the biggest part of his life, he’s missed it. He’s missed it.” (09:40)

• Martin Short as Oliver:

  “Red before green, you’re peeing clean. Green before red, your liver’s dead.” (10:49)

• Ivan (Arielle Shafir):

  “For seven years, she (Bunny) was my regular… Maybe she saw me as grandson. Maybe she saw me as something else.” (34:19)

• On Will's parentage:

  “Now I have to play Nathan Lane’s son. Rough, rough life, you know?” (25:34)

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Episode Timestamps: Important Segments

• Episode Recap: 01:32–02:51
• Fan Theories & Audience Engagement: 03:47, 16:18, 41:16–43:54, 45:25–46:22
• Son of Sam Game & Writing Process: 05:24–13:36
• Charles & Jan, “Silence of the Jan”: 17:00–20:38
• Will & Oliver’s Relationship: 21:01–27:37
• Iran Contra Scene Deep Dive: 28:40–33:03
• Ivan & the Pickle Diner: 33:55–37:29
• Clue Teasers & Intertextual Mystery: 39:40–41:03
• Whodunit Summit: 41:16–43:54

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Tone and Takeaways

The podcast maintains a witty, meta-referential tone, matching the show, with plenty of in-jokes and fan-forward engagement. Cast and crew insights are peppered with dry humor, occasional deadpan silliness, and a delight in both the show’s narrative puzzles and the community around them.

For Listeners:

• The episode is a treat for superfans, blending backstage stories, creative secrets, and rabid theorizing.
• The writers’ playful approach and actors’ collaborative energy are on full display.
• Theories abound, but answers await—stay suspicious, stay tuned!

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Next Time:
The podcast promises continued dives into season two’s biggest mysteries and more behind-the-scenes revelations. Email theories and tune in for future “Whodunit Summits.”

Transcript

[Straw Hut Media Announcer]

Straw Hut Media.

[Rob Chbosky]

Pretty deep, right? I kind of nailed that answer, guys.

[Matteo Borghese]

It was way less generic than mine, by the way.

[Rob Chbosky]

I don't know if this affects anything, but I can't actually hear KK for some reason. I hear everybody else. Is that gonna be a problem? No.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Who are we? We're a couple of true crime aficionados.

[Kevin Lawn]

Kind of like Charles, Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters in the Hulu original show. Only Murders in the Building, season two.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we're here making a podcast about a show where the characters make their own podcast about a murder.

[Kevin Lawn]

I'm your host, Kevin Lawn.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And I'm your other host, Elizabeth Keener.

[Kevin Lawn]

Why are we here?

[Elizabeth Keener]

To solve a murder and to try to figure out who the killer is before all is revealed in the season finale.

[Kevin Lawn]

We may not be in the arconia ourselves, but we'll get some inside information from members of the cast and crew and clues to help us piece it all together.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Today we'll be talking to the writers of episode five, Matteo Borghese and Rob Terbowski, as well as Ryan Broussard, who plays Will Putnam, and Arielle Shafir, who plays Ivan.

[Kevin Lawn]

Plus, we'll hear more from showrunner and co creator John Hoffman.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We'll talk about Oliver's gift for reading people, Teddy's 20 year fuck, and Ivan's essential role in solving Bunny's murder.

[Kevin Lawn]

As of now, we've seen the first five episodes, so listeners beware. We're gonna give a quick recap. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button, stream episode five now and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We don't want to sp. Episode 5 will narrates the opening of this episode and he tells us about Oliver's keen power of observation and his

[Kevin Lawn]

go to party game. Son of Sam. Charles asks Jan for help in figuring out who killed Bunny, and she says they should be looking for an artist or a storyteller.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mabel and Alice are getting closer, and while they're on the phone, Mabel discovers a secret entrance through a floor vent into her apartment, where she finds a

[Kevin Lawn]

matchbook for the Pickle Diner that might have blood on it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She agrees to let Alice host her upcoming art party at her apartment.

[Kevin Lawn]

The trio head to the Pickle Diner to look for clues. Ivan gives them a list of all his regulars at the party.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oliver brings out the Son of Sam game and accuses Alice of lying. She admits she's been lying about her background, but nothing else.

[Kevin Lawn]

Later, Oliver spots Ivan returning the envelope of cash. He follows him Back to the diner. And that's where Ivan shows the security footage of Bunny's last day.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She's meeting with someone, and that person gets up and grabs a matchbook.

[Kevin Lawn]

By the end of the episode, Mabel and Alice are still okay. She apologizes and promises to be honest.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Don't we all, kk? But something's still off about Alice. We see she has the Son of Sam card in her bag and will

[Kevin Lawn]

break some news to Oliver. He got his DNA results back, and instead of being half Irish, they are half Greek.

[Martin Short]

That's not possible.

[Ryan Broussard]

Is it Greek?

[Martin Short]

No, I can't.

[Elizabeth Keener]

How is this season compared to last season for you guys?

[Matteo Borghese]

Just terrible? No, this has been. It's been really fun.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is Matteo Borghesi, one of the writers of this episode. You might remember him from episode eight of season one.

[Matteo Borghese]

I think we added an element of difficulty to the process a little bit because we were kind of getting used to the structure and the storytelling of a mystery. And now we're kind of coming back, and we felt like we could play around with it a little bit more.

[Elizabeth Keener]

One thing they're taking into account is how people watching only murders respond to the show.

[Matteo Borghese]

We definitely kind of, like, look at what the fans are saying and kind of consider it. And it's also given us ideas, too, because I think the fans go off in all sorts of interesting directions. And part of our job is to kind of, like, satisfy that kind of urge to be like, oh, is it this guy? Is it this person? What were they doing? Is that suspicious? So I think it gave us an opportunity to kind of lead our audience in unexpected places and to different suspects. And I think that adds an element of difficulty because you have to kind of pay off all of those little directions eventually, or people are going to get extremely frustrated and angry at you. But it also kind of opens up new avenues of, like, kind of storytelling. I guess.

[Rob Chbosky]

I found it. You know, as our friend Ben Smith said, it's easy. It's easy.

[Kevin Lawn]

And this is Rob Chbosky. He and Mateo have been writing together for many years. They wrote on shows like Silicon Valley, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and Lady Dynamite.

[Rob Chbosky]

As soon as Confeder's, like, it's easy to write. We weren't joking about that earlier. You know, it's like you want it to be different, but, you know, the same but different kind of is, you know, what you're trying to do, and that's never that simple, I guess. You're trying, you know, you want to be, like, surprising, but you want people to be like, oh, yeah, it's that show I love, you know, again, but not so similar. They're like, why did they do more of these? You know, but not so different that you're like, why did they do more of these? You know, it's all about the tone.

[Elizabeth Keener]

In this episode, we learn about Oliver's go to party game, Son of Sam. Here's showrunner and co creator John Hoffman talking about it.

[John Hoffman]

The invention of our brilliant writers Matteo Borghesi and Rob Cherbosky. We talked a lot about Oliver's youth and his time in New York and when he first met Teddy and what his life was like and how he was interested and how he got involved in this sort of, you know, how this theater director, who clearly was obsessed on that, also had this other interesting aspect to him, which was, I like to get to know when someone's lying. I have a skill. I have a. I have an expertise about having a sense for the truth when I'm getting it and when I'm not getting it.

[Kevin Lawn]

And the game might look familiar if you've ever played Mafia or werewolf.

[Rob Chbosky]

It's not a real game exactly, but you're right. It's based on, you know, I was. There was some New Year's Eve party I was at once where we played a similar sort of, like, murder mystery kind of game, you know, and so it was sort of adapted from that and games like Mafia, you know, a game where you have to do a lot of talking. So we thought that would be a fun way for, you know, how's Oliver going to try to solve this mystery? That's in a very Oliver sort of way.

[Matteo Borghese]

And I think there was elements of the Son of Sam's story that we thought would be, like, fun for the narrative. And it opens up, like, kind of different ideas and themes that maybe later on we'll return to, I think.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The Son of Sam, for those of you who don't know, was an infamous serial killer who terrorized New York in the 1970s. Between 1976 and 1977, he killed six people and wounded seven others. He wrote crazy letters to the police, and in them, he referred to himself as a Son of Sam.

[Kevin Lawn]

Yeah, it's a very strange case. But something that's kind of funny about Oliver's game is that all the players are either the Son of Sam killer or an innocent blonde. But the actual Son of Sam mostly targeted women with long, dark hair, except

[Elizabeth Keener]

for his last victim, Stacy Moskowitz. And it was her murder that eventually led to his capture.

[Kevin Lawn]

Very interesting. And you know how Rob was saying they want to make things the same but different in season two, The Son of Sam game is a bit like his Chorus line auditions for the Murderer in episode three of last season.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It is kk, where each person stepped forward and admitted to the murder, and he decided whether it was believable. Very similar.

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah. I think there's something that we really like about Oliver being, like, kind of. He works from his gut a little bit, and the kind of logic of his method, like, can't really be questioned. It's not, like, purely rational the way he makes his decisions. And we just kind of want to honor that, his completely rational kind of emotional thinking. So that's kind of a little bit where we came to it. And, you know, of course, when you're doing the mystery, you're like, this should make sense on some level. But for Oliver, like, we don't need to have that rule necessarily.

[Rob Chbosky]

It's always a goal that it makes sense on some level. That's the goal. I think

[Kevin Lawn]

John Hoffman goes on to talk about Oliver's sense for the truth,

[John Hoffman]

and that goes to his theater direction. I think a director would say, I can sense that as well. And you want a director who can sense the truth and what feels not as authentic. But here it related to the obvious sort of where he. Where he goes with Mabel and Charles leaning towards true crime investigation and podcasting. So the source of that and the pride he has in that. I know this. I know this. I thought that was a really interesting thing to take us back into his history in New York and when he first landed here and what was his calling card, and. And around the 70s, the idea, new York, and looking at that picture and thinking of, you know, one of the most infamous killers in New York's history and letting that be a game of some sorts, because the game gets upended for Oliver by the end of that episode in a major way. Just when he thinks he's. He's doing the thing that he does better than anybody, and he's knowing when someone is telling him the truth or not, he realizes with probably the biggest part of his life, he's missed it. He's missed it. And could it be actually true? We'll find out. But, yeah, that's something.

[Martin Short]

Okay, Zoomers. This shindig is flatlining. But thankfully, Dr. Oliver Feelgood's got something to jumpstart its heart. A party game.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oliver, what are you doing?

[Martin Short]

Oh, I know. We're all too cool for this. Mabel, do you know who else thought

[Kevin Lawn]

he was too cool?

[Martin Short]

Andy Warhol knew him, taught him how to play at the factory in 79.

[Straw Hut Media Announcer]

This is demented.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And I'm in.

[Rob Chbosky]

Wonderful.

[Martin Short]

Step one, drugs. But fair warning, they may be a few decades old. Red before green, you're peeing clean. Green before red, your liver's dead.

[Elizabeth Keener]

What is he doing?

[Rob Chbosky]

He's either pushing Benzedrine or penicillin.

[Martin Short]

It's an innocent game. Now, everyone get pilled out and prepare to travel back to gritty. Go, go. In your face, dancing Bronx on fire let's go.

[Kevin Lawn]

Nicks.

[Martin Short]

Mean Streets Taxi Driver Muppets take Manhattan New York City of 1977

[Matteo Borghese]

blackout.

[Martin Short]

It's a hot, sweaty summer night and there's a madman on the loose.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It felt like Martin Short was really in his element in the Son of Sam scene with Alice. How much did he contribute in that? And how much was the writer's room?

[Rob Chbosky]

Well, he's always a really good sport about doing the incredibly long monologues that we write for him, you know, and he. He will try anything. And so I. I think a lot of that was as written, especially that big long one at the beginning that kind of starts the game where he comes in with the pills, which they did in one shot, which is amazing. But he really brought we in writing it. We knew, like, he's gonna bring, like, a crazy amount of energy to this because he does to everything. So it will be fun to challenge him by just giving him an insanely long speech that really, you shouldn't expect any human being to be able to do in one take. But he did it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Wow, that's cool to know. That was one take, right, K.K.

[Kevin Lawn]

yeah.

[Matteo Borghese]

I mean, it was longer while we were writing it.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yeah.

[Matteo Borghese]

Like, we really, like, that was us paring it back, too, because we were like, we might kill a legend if we make him do this.

[Rob Chbosky]

It did become, like, a kind of impossible. Like a tongue twister of things that he's listening. Just like nonsense descriptors of New York in the 70s. It was, like, three times. It was, like, considerably longer. And we're just like, this is ridiculous.

[Matteo Borghese]

I think at one point we had him saying, New York, New York, New York, New York. Yeah, New York in the 70s. We just wanted him to stack as many New York together as possible.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yes. And then that became Muppet Steak Manhattan,

[Matteo Borghese]

I think, which makes my heart sang and. But apparently that was released. Like, we. We had, like, kind of a standoff at some point. There was, like, a moment where that didn't make it in or almost didn't make it in because it was like. Well, technically, that's a picture from 1981, so it's not really square with New York in the seventies. I don't know. I still think of Kermit when I think of New York in the 70s.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yeah. Like, it's not a documentary.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oliver uses the game to pull the truth out of Alice. And while he does end up getting her to admit to lying, it's not the truth that he expects.

[Martin Short]

Swedish porno film. And you are not who you say you are.

[Straw Hut Media Announcer]

Okay, fine. I didn't go Dogsford. No one in my family is rich or is in the arts, but who wants to buy a $50,000 painting from the daughter of a plumber from Essex? I didn't think so. I've had to lie to create some legitimacy for myself in this world. And, yes, I get the irony in what I just said. And now, if you are done humiliating me, game over. Please.

[Kevin Lawn]

Thank you.

[Martin Short]

Thank you.

[Kevin Lawn]

Alice and Mabel wind up making up in the end. But then we see that she has the Son of Sam card stashed in her bag.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. So it seems there's more to uncover about her.

[Rob Chbosky]

She was a fun one to write because it is like, you know, when you're crafting, figuring out, okay, who are these characters who are going to introduce and what's compelling about them that's different from anyone we've seen. Seen before, and what are we wanting them to illuminate about Mabel? That's really what those relationships are about. So we're like, okay, here's someone who's in the world that Mabel wants to be in. And she's such a different flavor than anything we've had before. So you could see how Mabel would. What she would find attractive about this person who's reaching out to her about her art. You know, this thing that she cares about, that she can connect to. And this is someone who potentially could lead her towards a future that she's excited about. It's not a figure from her past like Oscar or anything like that. So, you know, we wanted to really think about that, like, what the promise is that Alice offers her. I think we wanted to think about that. Matteo, what did you want to think about?

[Matteo Borghese]

Definitely not that. Ignore that. Whatever that was. No, I think that's right. Think we were very, like, cognizant of the fact that, like, Mabel's life had kind of been interrupted by the crime in the first season, and now she gets to kind of rethink it all. And I Think Alice is someone who is far along on a track that she kind of wants to be on a little bit right now or is considering being on. So there's something that Mabel kind of sees in her. It's like, you know, like a life that maybe she would have wanted if. If she hadn't been through all of that in the first season.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We've heard from a lot of fans that think Alice was involved in some way in Bunny's death and maybe the disappearance of the painting. What do you think about that, K.K.

[Kevin Lawn]

well, I think Alice has definitely been the number one suspect for the viewers. I think there is a lot to be said about her art gallery background that's going to be tied into that million dollar painting that is missing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, you know, I'm thinking also, I mean, I think I've said Alice once or twice as my guest for the whodunit summit, but I don't know, is it too much on the nose? You know, that's what I'm wondering too. Right. Look for an artist kind of person. And who knows? I don't know.

[Kevin Lawn]

And the painting could be a side mystery, not the murder mystery.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, could be.

[Kevin Lawn]

Well, let's take a quick break and when we come back, Mateo and Rob tell us about the Return of Jane. Plus, actor Ryan Broussard gives us some insight into the complicated relationship between Will and Oliver. Jan was reintroduced at the end of the last episode, episode four. And in this episode we get a lot of conversations between her and Charles. Really funny jokes and great lines. Can you tell us about writing those?

[Matteo Borghese]

It was something that we, like wanted to do from the start of season two was to bring Jan back and to have her in prison and see what she's up to now. And kind of like, I think it was very early on that we were like, oh, her attitude is basically like, we never broke up. Like, we are still dating. And I don't know, that just felt however we could get to that. We wanted to get to that.

[Kevin Lawn]

And it had some touches of Silence of the Lambs too, where Charles goes to her for advice on who the murderer could be.

[Matteo Borghese]

Yeah, that was the term in the writers room was silence of the jam. And we gotta play through this. And I don't know, there's just something so fun about, like, I can see it for Charles because she's so seductive and seems so normal, even though, you know, she's a killer. And that's kind of the fun of it. Like, we know that she'll be able to, like, say whatever we Tell her, like, whatever we write down, like, she'll say it in a way that you kind of makes sense. It makes, like, emotional sense. Even if, like, she's behind bars and will kill you if she gets it out. And that's just a wonderful feeling to have.

[Martin Short]

I think.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You added that.

[Rob Chbosky]

Mm.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That was it.

[Rob Chbosky]

I would agree. This is our sparkling banter. You know, I think we loved right away that idea of Hannibal Jan, just, like, the. The pull of her there was. We had a lot of fun with that call when he's, like, laying on his bed late at night and she's in. In the jail and just, like, making them feel like they were together in that moment, you know?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Wait, she's dating an actual artist? No kidding. That's like a criminal profiling hole in one.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yeah, but now I'm not so sure.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Why is she flirting with you? I'm getting a wee bit jealous.

[Martin Short]

There's nothing to be jealous about.

[Rob Chbosky]

Also, we're not a couple.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You're a detective. Look at the evidence. Where's a good match? You brought out something in my bassoon playing something feral.

[Kevin Lawn]

Stop it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, Charles, if you wanted me to stop, you'd just hang up.

[Rob Chbosky]

That was a lot of fun. Like, just the way that you, like, sort of lose yourself. It made me think of when I was in college, freshman year. My roommate, when I very beginning of freshman year, had, you know, his girlfriend back in Ohio or wherever he was from, and just listening to his end of their phone calls, you know, of. Like, we're both, you know, thinking of looking at the sky together or something like that, you know, And I was like, oh, I should just steal that. And now this guy's going to hear this podcast and hate me or whatever. I'm sorry. I'm doing it lovingly. I won't use your name.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Ah, the plight of having writers for friends, right? You never know what's going to end up in their script or their story.

[Rob Chbosky]

I think of myself as like a. Sort of like a. As a content vacuum cleaner. You know, there's. If there's stuff laying around in the carpet of the world, I'm going to. I'm going to scoop it up, and then it's going to sit inside me until I'm ready to be emptied out into television. You know,

[Kevin Lawn]

This is a big episode for Oliver's son, Will. We get to hear from him through the narration, and he gives us an inside look at Oliver's past.

[Matteo Borghese]

We really enjoyed that relationship in season one, and I think it was a huge priority to get Will back in the show. And I think we couldn't just replay the same dynamic as season one, so we wanted to add something kind of completely new and unexpected and see how these two characters kind of handle that, I think.

[Rob Chbosky]

And I think the question of, in what ways is Will Oliver's son? You know, what are the things you absorb from, you know, your father growing up and peeking around the corner at parties and the fact that Will is now directing a play and how that makes Oliver feel, I think were all really interesting questions to consider.

[Kevin Lawn]

Was there ever any discussion last season that Will could be Teddy's son?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, you mean, like, in the writers.

[Matteo Borghese]

We laid everything out, like, expertly. Like, every single consideration and question has been thought of years in advance by us immediately, and we know every twist and turn that's to come. So nothing is left to chance and everything is thought through, is what I'll say.

[Ryan Broussard]

Will and Oliver's relationship has taken a big leap from the first season. And I'm not giving anything away, but there is.

[Rob Chbosky]

There's some.

[Ryan Broussard]

Some stuff about to go down with those. With those characters.

[Kevin Lawn]

This is actor Ryan Broussard. He plays Will.

[Ryan Broussard]

Yeah, I was super excited when you guys reached out. I was like, I didn't even know the podcast was going. And then you guys reached out to me. I was like, this is. Of course, there's a podcast about the murder podcast show.

[Kevin Lawn]

It's very meta. It's very meta. Fun fact. Will started acting just seven years ago after being a lifelong athlete.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He even played shortstop for the Los Angeles Angels for a few years.

[Kevin Lawn]

And like a lot of folks in Only Murders, he's a theater actor. He was cast in his first Broadway show, Take Me out, just a couple

[Ryan Broussard]

of years ago, getting dressed to go to my first day of rehearsals. And. And, yeah, that was. That was the day that all of Broadway shut down.

[Kevin Lawn]

But when Broadway came back, the show went up and it won a Tony Award.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So from baseball to acting to acting about baseball.

[Ryan Broussard]

Yeah, it was a full circle thing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lawn]

There was a silver lining to the Broadway shutdown, though.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The only murders. Silver lining.

[Ryan Broussard]

This has been a dream come true. Being able to work with Steven Martin every single day that I'm on set. And I get. Especially, you know, getting to be around Martin, it's like, yeah, I don't. I don't have to pretend anymore to try to be his son. I actually feel like we have this connection on set. I mean, we're. You know, we have such a great relationship, you know, for the days that I Work and every single day. I mean, some days it's 12, 13 hour days, but I even find myself bummed, you know, once the day is over, it's like, I don't want to. I don't want to leave. I don't want it to end. It's such a fun set. I mean, I've never, I've never been on a set and been surrounded by so many people who care about each other, who light up once you come into the room, and everybody just enjoys each other's company. It's a really, really special show for

[Kevin Lawn]

all of you who have been suspicious of Will. Ryan told us about a scene from season one that ended up being cut that might have. You trust him more, but it was

[Ryan Broussard]

just kind of this kind of heartwarming scene where I fix Winnie up and I tell him, you know, she's gonna be okay.

[Kevin Lawn]

I was wondering how this season compared to last season, this.

[Ryan Broussard]

I don't want to be biased, but the second season, I mean, there's just so much more, I think, comedy in it. There's the, the writing. I'm in love. I was in love with the first season as well. The first season was, was amazing and get to see everything and, and also see how many people love the show was incredible. I mean, there was so many people who were tuning in and watching it on a weekly basis. And I kind of love that. Like, it's not a binge watch. You have to. It's one of those shows that it's set up to make. You have to wait the next week. And people hate it. And I love it. I love the anticipation. It's all unfolding this season of like the relationship between Oliver and Will. And now he's getting me involved with all his. Yeah, his shenanigans from first season and now continuing on the second season, there

[Kevin Lawn]

is a scene where Will has to tell Oliver that his DNA results came back Greek and not Irish as expected. Can you tell us about filming that scene?

[Ryan Broussard]

Yeah, it was, I mean, it was, it was a huge reveal. Once we, we got the script I had that came out of nowhere for me once, once we all kind of sat down and read it and we got to the end of that scene. I, like, I think I looked up at John and I was like, are you. Are you kidding me? Are you? And like, we all kind of just busted out laughing. And then I just even had this kind of running joke with the, with the cast of like, you know how long I've waited my entire life to play Martin Short Son. Now I have to play Nathan Lane. Son. Rough, rough life, you know? But, yeah, it was. It was. It was an intense day just because. Yeah, we were revealing and we just. Yeah, we wanted to. We wanted to get it right. We wanted that last moment of. Of what we see at the end of episode five to hit the audience and be like, oh, my God. You know, just because it's such a. It's such a huge reveal in episode four, when he finally comes back, Teddy has that. That back and forth with Oliver before he closes the elevator and he says, I'm gonna you. I don't know when and I don't know how, but I'm gonna you. And then it just. The next episode, you see how he.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oliver from way back, and.

[Ryan Broussard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Chbosky]

He's like. It was.

[Matteo Borghese]

It was a.

[Ryan Broussard]

It was a 20 year fun. Took a while to catch up.

[Kevin Lawn]

He played the long game. Yeah. And if Teddy is your character's father, that means you'd have a new brother, Theo.

[Ryan Broussard]

Yeah, exactly. You know?

[Rob Chbosky]

Yeah.

[Ryan Broussard]

And what is that relationship gonna be?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yeah.

[Ryan Broussard]

We'll get to unpack all those daddy issues, I'm sure.

[Kevin Lawn]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You'll be part of the season two

[Ryan Broussard]

and all of season three.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You'll be part of the different deli food.

[Ryan Broussard]

Yeah, exactly. I was like, if I'm.

[Kevin Lawn]

If I.

[Ryan Broussard]

If I'm a Demus, I want.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yes, I want.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I want free for life. It's the least you could do, right?

[Kevin Lawn]

Fatherhood is a big theme this season. Not only are we looking at the dynamic between Will and Oliver and maybe Teddy, now we've also learned a little bit about Charles's father, and we've seen Charles as a father figure to Lucy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mabel talks a little about her father, too, and how she sees Charles as a father figure. Here's Rob and Mateo on the theme

[Rob Chbosky]

of fatherhood as parents of this season. No, I don't have anywhere to go with that. Mateo, you're a father. You can say that publicly, right?

[Matteo Borghese]

Spin it out. Yes, yes, yes, I can say publicly, confidently. I am a father. Therefore, I know. It was actually my idea that the characters have fathers because before there was some thought that they'd been hatched or they had split asexually, as a amoeba

[Elizabeth Keener]

would have done, which is very big.

[Matteo Borghese]

I raised my voice that first day in the writer's room. Yeah. And I said, they should. They should have fathers, and maybe they have interesting relationships.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And I'm guessing you heard them from somewhere. You heard that from somewhere. Okay.

[Kevin Lawn]

And you stood your ground.

[Rob Chbosky]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay. And it worked pretty early on. In this episode, Mabel finds a secret passageway into her apartment with a matchbook in it. She calls Oliver and Charles over.

[Martin Short]

Oh, is that the matchbook in question? No, the Pickle Diner.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Look, is that blood or is that

[Martin Short]

a spot of ketchup? Interesting. Tell me, matchbook, are you clue or condiment?

[Kevin Lawn]

And their brainstorming gradually devolves into a very long and ridiculous conversation about the Iran Contra scandal.

[Martin Short]

Well, Charles, memory can contain both objective reality and subjective perception. For example, you remember being a huge television star, but I remember flipping past Brazos to watch the Iran Contra hearings. So, Mabel, what do you remember?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Not the Iran Contra.

[Martin Short]

Oh, that was easy. Ronald Reagan, who I didn't always agree with politically, but whose acting chops and hair color I respected, was opposed to something called the Boland Amendment.

[Rob Chbosky]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. He's skipping over the Carter Iranian arms embark.

[Martin Short]

She doesn't need me to recap the whole embassy. Stand up. Couple of names to remember. Robert McFarlane and John Poindext.

[Rob Chbosky]

And don't forget Weinberger and North.

[Martin Short]

I wasn't going to.

[Rob Chbosky]

Or the Tower Commission.

[Martin Short]

I wasn't going to. I know all the players. Negroponte, Noriega, Hassanfoss.

[Rob Chbosky]

He forgot Ed Mies, everybody.

[Martin Short]

Yeah, I wasn't going to forget Ed Mies, everybody. But I'll tell you who we did forget.

[Matteo Borghese]

Fawn Hall.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God, shut up. I don't care about any of this.

[Rob Chbosky]

Well, you should. It's worse than Watergate. Just not enough interesting.

[Kevin Lawn]

Can you tell us about the Iran Contra joke? Because it's a. It's a very long joke, but very funny. Like, especially, like, worse than Watergate, but less interesting. Like, how did the whole. How did that come to me?

[Rob Chbosky]

Now you're talking about something I can emotionally connect to. None of that fatherhood shit. But, you know, that one was. I think it was. That one was very enjoyable to write. I think that was a. You know, that's. The dream is to force two comedy legends to just say nonsense names from 35 years ago at each other at a, you know, incredible clip. You know, there were different versions of it in the. In one of the initial drafts. It was like. It was like, pretty long. And then I think Dan Fogelman read it and his feedback was like, you know, I thought I was getting bored with this, but then I. It won me back. So, like, it can get way longer. And then it got like, twice as long, and then it sort of shrank. And it was just like this. Them having this competition of who remembers you know, Noriego or Ed Mies or whatever. It's kind of like a version of, you know, the rake joke on the Simpsons where Sideshow Bob steps on, like, 200 rakes and, you know, the first rake is funny, then the second rake is, like, less funny, and the third rake is less funny than that. But then as it gets longer and longer, it gets funnier again. Hopefully that's what we did while teaching people about an overlooked chapter of American history and Fawn Hall.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's the best.

[Rob Chbosky]

Yes, we had.

[Matteo Borghese]

We had, like, a little line about Fawn hall that sad. Didn't make it. But through one of the drafts, just like them both saying, she's the dame. You know, she was the dame. She's the.

[Kevin Lawn]

She's the.

[Rob Chbosky]

So triumphantly, Marty did like, a little, like. Like a little purr or something. You know, it's like, she's a babe. But what really makes me laugh in that scene, too, and this is, like, a thing we didn't really write and is a good example of, you know, the actors and the director, like, finding extra laughs is the. The Selena, like, kind of pacing back and forth and just like, staring at them, sort of like, when are they going to be finished with this? You know, Iran contrast, just meetingless, sort of meander. Like, that always really makes me laugh. Her just, like, losing her patience with them. And that was, you know, she brought that and the director and the staging of it I thought was great.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Did you guys have table reads over zoom? And is everyone bringing it a lot to. I don't even know. I mean, I don't know if anybody's doing table reads over zoom.

[Matteo Borghese]

We do have table reads over zoom. People bring it. I believe during the reading of this episode, I brought it because I forgot that my microphone was on and I was laughing audibly at my own jokes during the table read until Rob started texting me frantically to turn off my microphone, that I was embarrassing myself and him and our joint creative.

[Rob Chbosky]

And your children.

[Matteo Borghese]

And my children.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Father and my father.

[Matteo Borghese]

And it all comes back to the theme of father.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. We're going to take another quick break now, and when we come back, we talk to Ariel Shafir, who plays Ivan. Plus, we get an interesting clue from Robin Mateo, and we make our guesses.

[Kevin Lawn]

The matchbook that Mabel finds leads the trio to the Pickle Diner and to Ivan. First he gives them his list of regulars. Then Oliver spots him returning that big envelope of cash that Bunny gave him.

[Arielle Shafir]

I heard you talking about Bonnie this morning. Make me think I Should return the

[Rob Chbosky]

money she gave me.

[Arielle Shafir]

I don't want any trouble.

[Martin Short]

This is a hell of a lot of money. Ivan doesn't look good.

[Arielle Shafir]

For seven years, she was my regular. She always tipped me extra at first, just little, then even more generously. Maybe she saw me as grandson. Maybe she saw me as something else.

[Martin Short]

This is one layer of the onion I did not need to peel back.

[Arielle Shafir]

You know, when someone gets not knocked off who just gave you a bunch of money, your imagination can go to a lot of places.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is Ariel Shafir. He plays Ivan.

[Arielle Shafir]

Are they looking for the money? Are they. I have the money. Are they looking for me? You know what I mean? So it makes the. The wheels spin in terms of like, who's missing this money, you know, why is this person dead?

[Elizabeth Keener]

And Ivan doesn't want any trouble.

[Arielle Shafir]

I felt that Ivan was an immigrant or came to America, wasn't born here, came. He's part of a family diner. And like people who work in restaurants, it can start to feel like a family situation. And then it feels like a family to the people who are his regulars, you know, and someone like Bunny may remind him of family that he's no longer lives in the same city with. He sort of has that. That fellowship with the people who come in. And I think he's one of those people that people will tell him their life story if they sat next to him on a bus or a plane. He's that guy that has that sort of openness to him and people project things onto him and tell him everything. And they. I mean, he probably has an insight or connection to everyone in that neighborhood and everyone in that building. I mean, it. There's. Everyone at some point eats in that diner that lives in that building. And that sort of places him in the perfect position in that sort of ecosystem of only murders in the building. You know, it's like he's pickled. Diner is a hub of sorts. So I think you'll see all sorts of people coming in and out of the diner. And when anyone is in that diner, who's there but Ivan?

[Kevin Lawn]

Ariel, like Ryan Bouchard and Jane Houdeschel and like a lot of the cast and crew has a theater background too.

[Arielle Shafir]

The strangeness of shooting out of sequence, cross shooting episodes in a single day. Having different directors, being absolutely brand new on an ensemble cast and showing up to like deliver felt more comfortable to me because I was surrounded by theater people. You know, I mean, everyone's sort of like, okay, everyone. There's a level of faith and trust in Process and in sort of like, being there for each other. And, you know, even Marty Short and Steve Martin have a long history of doing live things and performing, you know, doing theater. Steve Martin's written a lot of plays, so there's something in the DNA of the whole show that has that going for it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And you know what? I actually just realized this. But Oliver and Charles are representations themselves of the intersection between television and the theater.

[Kevin Lawn]

That's true. Oliver is a theater director and Charles is a television star.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And Oliver's theater background goes back many generations.

[Rob Chbosky]

He says there was a thing in the. When Oliver is with Will and they're watching the kind of rehearsals of the play, and Will is talking about, you know, the family's roots in, you know, the theater go back, whatever, however many generations. I don't remember if that's in there, but he was. There was an additional line where he's talking about, like, how far back in theater they go. And he references the vaudeville team of Putnam and Booth and that Oliver's great, great, great grandfather was in a comedy or performance team with John Wilkes Booth that broke up after Booth assassinated Abraham Lincoln. But actually it wasn't a vaudeville team. It was even older than that. And it was. We called it like the Traveling Chicken Torture Medicine show of Putnam and Booth, I think. And that just was decided to be a nonsense mouthful. That was horrible. And so it was not used, but it was shot as very amusing, was very amusing.

[Matteo Borghese]

It paints a picture to me.

[Rob Chbosky]

Marty tried it a few times, and then he was. I think even he was like, I can't make sense of this. And we're like, fair enough.

[Martin Short]

Now they.

[Rob Chbosky]

And we wrote it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So Martin short cut a line and

[Kevin Lawn]

Steve Martin added a line.

[Rob Chbosky]

And I think Steve's line that I think is really funny after when Oliver leaves to go get the drugs and he just leaves him alone kind of stranded, and he tries to talk to somebody, and he's like, I don't do well at parties because people find me creepy. I think that. I think he. I think that's him. I mean, I. I don't think we definitely didn't write it. So I think he adwed that.

[Matteo Borghese]

I don't think we would write something like that. It was just. It's just so funny. And it's such a. Like, straight. Like, it's. It's like a perfect knuckleball joke, you know, Like, I think we wouldn't think to write something that just kind of. Is so kind of straightforward like that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's very funny in this episode. Are we anywhere closer to knowing what 14 and savage mean? Because you guys talk about it in this episode.

[Matteo Borghese]

So I think the answer is actually yes. In fact.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, thank you.

[Matteo Borghese]

After you watch all of the episodes, if you do watch all the episodes, you will come back to this podcast episode and you will hear me say this again, because you're listening to this again, I guess, in this reality. And you will hear my voice and you will nod and you'll be like, I understand exactly what he's talking about. And what a clever little tip of the hat to the way it all played out.

[Rob Chbosky]

You know, there is a movie that we are referencing, but I can't say what it is, but I'll come back to it. You know, ask me again after episode 10. I'm afraid if I say it, it will give too much away. But you are closer. Sure. You know? Yeah, let's go with that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's good. Okay. You know, we will take those clues.

[Matteo Borghese]

I really don't even know what you're talking about.

[Rob Chbosky]

Well, like, what I'll say is we were. We would talk about this movie and this. This thing in this movie, and then I went and re watched the movie, and I was like, oh, I totally misremembered it. And I'm. We did it. We're doing it completely wrong. But so good luck figuring it out based on those clues.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So really, you did reference it. You just thought you were referencing a movie? Kk. You know what time it is?

[Kevin Lawn]

My favorite time.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yep. It's the who Done it, who Done it summit.

[Kevin Lawn]

This is where Keener and I guess who we think the murderer is based on what we've seen so far, which is up to episode five.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Up to episode five, we write down

[Kevin Lawn]

our murder suspect, put in an envelope, and seal it until right now when we feel it to each other. All right, so you picked Howard the cat guy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Kevin Lawn]

Why did you pick Howard?

[Elizabeth Keener]

I finally doubled up because I do believe that he is a guy with allergies. And when he sneezed, probably because of dust or something, you know, I feel like he may have punched himself in the eye. He. You know, he's that kind of guy. It seems like, I don't know, he's just a guy that acts like he's the sweetest and, you know, what was me kind of guy. But those are the worst. I'm telling you. I think that there's something about him

[Kevin Lawn]

underneath that fluffy exterior.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Underneath that's a ferocious kid. Fluffy 11 Evelyn exterior. So that's my guess. So, okay. Are you ready?

[Kevin Lawn]

Okay. Ready.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay. You said Alice, first of all copied that. Yes. But. Okay, you said.

[Kevin Lawn]

No, there's a whole new reason for this.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right, I want to hear. I cannot wait.

[Kevin Lawn]

Alice, as you recall, I mentioned I wondered if they would bring back Jan as kind of like a Silence of the Lamb kind of thing. Pick her brains.

[Rob Chbosky]

Right.

[Kevin Lawn]

So they did that. And she said to beware of a new person in someone's life. And Alice is definitely a new person in someone's life. Plus, she also hid her murder card for the Son of the Sam game.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lawn]

Remember at the very end, it's hidden in her bag.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. She. Well, she bothered me as a gamer. She bent it. I mean, she bent the card and I was like, oh, he do that. I mean, honestly, I'm just saying. And you just said pick your brain about Jan, which made me laugh because you're. You've got some good one liners. So. Yeah. Very good. Okay.

[Kevin Lawn]

I'm also wondering.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lawn]

Do you think she's really British? Because Oliver had a lot of questions about her background.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lawn]

So maybe that's a fake thing as well. So I'm keeping my eye on Alice this week.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Thanks everyone for listening to season two, episode five of Only Murders in the Pod. Our inbox is open again, so please send over your thoughts and theories to only murdersrawhutmedia.com and if you're enjoying the show like I know you are, please, please leave us a rating and a review. It really helps people find the show.

[Kevin Lawn]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted by Elizabeth Keener, me and Kevin Lance, produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt, and Only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Xavier Salas, Louisa Maltini and the entire hul.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, kk, so we're at the fan mail and I'm gonna read one and you read one, and if we want to do a quick discussion. But this is so good, Ryan M. Thank you so much. This is. I think Alice is the murderer, but it stems from a larger theory. I believe that Lenora Folger and Rose Cooper are the same person, Rose Cooper being the pen name for her art. And that Charles's father was in love with her and had a child with her. This child has the blueprints from the Arconia passed down from her mother. And that's how they place the painting in Charles's apartment. Lenora ran away to have the child in hiding. And Alice is the grandchild of Lenora and wants her inheritance. Isn't that interesting?

[Kevin Lawn]

That is very interesting.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Really, Ryan, you thought that through? Ryan M. I really appreciate it. I thought. I'm so. I was fascinated about the Rose Cooper being the pen name for her art because a lot of people do have the pen names for their art, you know.

[Kevin Lawn]

That's true.

[Elizabeth Keener]

What I think is fascinating that a lot of people think that Rose Cooper is still alive. Okay, what's yours?

[Kevin Lawn]

KK so, Keener. I picked Julie H. For a very specific reason, because she picked Theo, who has been one of my guesses in the past. Her letter says, my current operating theory is that Theo is the killer bunny. Yells for the person to go away after they knock on her door. But then they knock a second time. Theo would not have heard her say that. She also thinks he knows about the secret underbelly of the building. And in theory, Lucy's nervous, heavy breathing when she's in the passageways would have been audible to the person with the flashlight, but Theo would not have heard that.

[Rob Chbosky]

Ooh.

[Elizabeth Keener]

See, that's really, like, fleshed out, too. That's a really good thought. Okay, that's all the time we have, but we want to thank some people. And I just want to say, Sarah B. Thank you for the Easter egg clues idea. That was great.

[Kevin Lawn]

Yeah. We also want to thank Celeste, Anna,

[Elizabeth Keener]

Philip, alyssa, Sarah, Jesselyn, eaf5878, Ellen from South Carolina. We appreciate some people try to do anagrams. Jsd. Thank you, everyone. You are all. We greatly appreciated listening to this. And we'll catch you on the flip side.

[Kevin Lawn]

Keep them coming.