← Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast
Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast
S2 E6: Performance Review
00:48:31
Join Keener and KK as they take a deeper look into the life and death of Bunny Folger. Today we'll be talking to the writers of Episode 6, Ben Smith and Joshua Allen Griffith, and Adina Verson, who plays Cinda's minion, Poppy White. Plus, we'll hear...
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- [00:01]
Ben Smith
Strawhut Media Obviously she's just stabbed someone, so that's first and foremost a thing, but she will need to step back and kind of figure out what was going on. What happened here? Who are the people I want to be surrounding myself with?
- [00:20]
Elizabeth Keener
Who are we? We're a couple of true crime aficionados,
- [00:24]
Kevin Wan
kind of like Charles Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters in the Hulu original show. Only murders in the building, now in
- [00:33]
Elizabeth Keener
and we're here making a podcast about a show where the characters make their own podcast about a murder.
- [00:38]
Kevin Wan
I'm your host, Kevin Wan.
- [00:39]
Elizabeth Keener
And I'm your other host, Elizabeth Keener.
- [00:41]
Kevin Wan
Why are we here?
- [00:42]
Elizabeth Keener
To solve a murder and to try to figure out who the killer is before all is revealed in the season finale.
- [00:49]
Kevin Wan
We may not be in the Arconia ourselves, but we'll get some inside information from members of the cast and crew and clues to help us piece it all together.
- [00:58]
Elizabeth Keener
Today we'll be talking to the writers of episode six, Ben Smith and Joshua Alan Griffith, and Idina Verson, who plays Cinda's minion, Poppy White.
- [01:06]
Kevin Wan
Plus, we'll hear from showrunner and co creator John Hoffman. We'll talk about what exactly makes Alice's betrayal sting so much, the glorious glitter bomb and Mabel's breaking point.
- [01:18]
Elizabeth Keener
As of now, we've seen the first six episodes, so listeners beware. We're going to give a quick recap. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button, stream episode six now and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you. Episode 6, KK Yes, Cinda Canning is interviewing Jimmy Russo, who has a story about Mabel's violent past.
- [01:51]
Kevin Wan
Alice and Mabel are still seeing each other, but we're still suspicious of Alice. We see her taking a photo of the floor where Bunny died.
- [01:58]
Elizabeth Keener
Charles is still visiting Jan in prison. Charles Oliver's taking his DNA test.
- [02:04]
Kevin Wan
S.A.S.P. pataky is back. Now that Brazos is filming again, the
- [02:08]
Elizabeth Keener
trio decides they need help from Detective Williams to see who the fingerprint on the matchbook belongs to and whether it's blood or ketchup or paint. So they text the number that told them to get out of the building the night of Bunny's murder, thinking it's her.
- [02:21]
Kevin Wan
Detective Kreps once again tells them all to stop podcasting, and they find out that Detective Williams is on maternity leave and can't be the one texting them right.
- [02:31]
Elizabeth Keener
So they decide to plant fake evidence with a GL to try and catch whoever has been texting them.
- [02:36]
Kevin Wan
Cinda drops the podcast episode with Jimmy Russo. He claims Mabel chopped off his finger at a Long John Silver and fried it up.
- [02:45]
Elizabeth Keener
They find out that Charles has been talking to Jan and they're so distracted that they miss the glitter bomb going off. The person is able to run away without being identified.
- [02:53]
Kevin Wan
Poppy learns that she's never going to get the performance review she wants from Cinda.
- [02:57]
Elizabeth Keener
Saz shows up to the prison and breaks up with Jan for Charles.
- [03:01]
Kevin Wan
Mabel visits Alice at her studio and finds that she has recreated her apartment and is making some kind of movie about the traumatic events in Mabel's life.
- [03:11]
Elizabeth Keener
Poppy calls Mabel and shares some of Cinda's secrets.
- [03:14]
Kevin Wan
Then Mabel sees Glitter Guy on the train.
- [03:17]
Elizabeth Keener
Mm. And then Will sends Oliver a video that's going viral of what looks like Mabel stabbing Glitter Guy with a knitting needle on the subway.
- [03:26]
Ben Smith
Look at that. My, my son sent me a video. Yo, bloody Mabel sight number two. She just stabbed some dud. I'll take that hug now.
- [03:50]
Elizabeth Keener
Episode 6 was co written by Ben Smith and Joshua Allen Griffith. Ben, you might remember from episode three
- [03:56]
Kevin Wan
of this season and actually episode three of last season too.
- [04:00]
Elizabeth Keener
But Joshua is a new addition to the only Murders crew. Before this, he wrote for another Hulu show that rides the line between genres, Mrs. America. He says John Hoffman read a very serious hour long pilot of his which got him a meeting. Plus Joshua had worked as a police dispatcher for a few years. Fascinating. So he had an interesting view on crime.
- [04:21]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I got to know a lot of those, you know, types of personalities and I got to understand maybe a, a more grounded version of crime, a more gritty version, I suppose. But I think there was probably a part of me that was like, maybe I'll put this in a, in a story at some point down the line. But what it, what it really allowed me to do because I worked for three years on the midnight shift from 7pm to 7am I watched a lot of television, I read a lot of books, and at 4 o' clock when things start to slow down, you can be pretty productive. So that's where I wrote my first script. And it was time well spent with
- [05:02]
Kevin Wan
Ben being a more seasoned upper level writer and Joshua being the newer addition to the staff. The two of them made a natural team.
- [05:10]
Joshua Alan Griffith
It gave me a lot of comfort knowing that I was writing with Ben because I had written other, I had read other episodes that he had written and I loved his work on the page. I think when we worked in breakout rooms, I would often get assigned to Ben's room. So we had a sort of a rapport going into the writing experience. And I think also I would say Ben and I have a similar vibe. We're sort of polite, soft spoken.
- [05:40]
Elizabeth Keener
Not us. Not us.
- [05:43]
Joshua Alan Griffith
It's hard to express, but I think we give authors a similar vibe. And he probably thought, they'll get along, they're not going to buckheads. And we didn't.
- [05:50]
Ben Smith
It was a very easy and fun pairing. Like, Joshua and I had never written together before. You know, we're not a writing team. But it was a very fun process, especially considering we'd written all this during the pandemic. We were on zoom the whole time. And this was the first time Joshua and I, we would like meet during the, you know, week and a half week or so that we had to write. We would like meet in person to kind of break the story together and rewrite together. And that was. I'd miss that kind of in person collaboration and really, you know, rolling up your sleeves together.
- [06:24]
Kevin Wan
For those of you who are curious about how the process works with co writers, Ben says by the time he and Joshua went off to write their episode, they already had an outline, you
- [06:34]
Ben Smith
know, maybe like a five page document. Descriptions of each scene that we'd worked as a group and had the other writers help build out had been approved by John and by Dan Fogelman and everyone. And we were kind of like sent off in a week to work. And we kind of, at the beginning of the time divvied up, like, one of us will write the first half of the scenes, the other person will write the other half so we can have some sense of flow and continuity between our scenes. But we then sat down together for a day as Joshua was saying, and if you knew that was the scene you were writing, it was kind of like, let me walk you through how I think this scene is going to happen. And if there are things that I don't feel confident about yet or I have questions about, like, let's spitball. This is kind of like a piece of information that's like, tricky for me to get out. What's the best and most fun way to do it? Until we kind of both felt confident that when we left to write by ourselves for four or five days, we knew how to get through our scenes. And then we came back together at the end. And then again, kind of everything's on the table, like, let's rewrite each other's writing. Here's a couple joke ideas. Oh, now that I've seen your pages, I'm realizing my scene in the first act, we don't need that thing. We're repeating an idea. And actually in sometimes we found ourselves that we very separately had very synergistic ideas. Like, oh, I made a very similar joke from that character three scenes prior. There was kind of some weird mind melds that had happened.
- [07:57]
Kevin Wan
Cinda is an awful boss to Poppy. Have you ever felt like you were treated like a Poppy at a job you've had?
- [08:06]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Certainly.
- [08:07]
Elizabeth Keener
Tell us.
- [08:09]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I, I'm not going to tell you about it. I'm not going to use names, no. But I don't know when Ben and I were talking about that. The things that I contributed to the cinder of our episode were. Were like, honestly, things that, like, my, my best bosses did and told me. Like, there's a line about Catherine Graham. That was something that my mentor told me on, like, one of the worst days of work where I would. I. I had worked initially as a researcher for her, and then she eventually promoted me to staff writer. She's the one who gave me my first writing job. And there was a brief period where I had to be the script coordinator on that show. And I was an absolute wreck as a script coordinator. I'm pretty detail oriented, but that job ruined me. And I had, like, I distroed the wrong thing twice in a row. And everybody was emailing me back, like, what is this? And like, the, the. Some of the top execs at FX were like this. Who is this guy? And I got on the phone with her and I was like, I screwed it up. I'm so sorry. I don't know what to say. And she was like, listen, Matthew Weiner once told me, don't be too good at a job that you don't want. And she knew that Mad Men was my favorite show in the world, and so she talked me off a ledge. And you take those sorts of quotes and you give them to evil characters, I guess.
- [09:40]
Elizabeth Keener
Yeah. It's a great line, though. It really is.
- [09:42]
Kevin Wan
It's a great line.
- [09:43]
Elizabeth Keener
Yeah. Yes.
- [09:46]
Kevin Wan
Ben and Ben, how about you?
- [09:48]
Ben Smith
Only fantastic bosses. I'm not going to fall for that trap that Joshua walked right into. I, I do think that, like, the, the Cinda and Poppy relationship we really enjoyed because. And we see both of it, we see that, like, that reverence, like this infallible boss who, like, you know, is difficult, but you see this genius in them and you're willing to, like, go suffer through the pain. And I think that. And because you see all the great things about them, you overlook or allow the lesser parts. And I think that, that feeling of admiration is something that I think Joshua and I talked a lot about. Kind of the brilliance you see in someone and what you're willing to forgive as a consequence or what you are blinded to, that a third party like Mabel can kind of see. So that was kind of like our, I think, like, the really interesting nuance of that relationship that we like talking about.
- [10:44]
Elizabeth Keener
Cinda Canning is played by the amazing Tina Fey, yet another iconic comic actor in the Only Murders Ranks.
- [10:51]
Kevin Wan
How was it working with Tina Fey for so much?
- [10:54]
Idina Verson
Oh, incredible. I mean, I'm a huge fan of hers.
- [11:00]
Elizabeth Keener
This is Adina Versan. She plays Poppy White, Cinda's assistant.
- [11:03]
Idina Verson
Never did. I think I would be doing scenes with her. How crazy. And she's like a beautiful, wonderful human being. She comes in with, like, a bunch of ideas for other jokes and. And alternate lines, and she's just like, everything is so easy, and she makes everybody feel easy. And she's just a wonderful person to
- [11:24]
Elizabeth Keener
be around, unlike the character she plays, Cinda, Canning, a character that feels perfect for Tina Fey.
- [11:30]
Idina Verson
Yeah. Interesting story. I originally auditioned for Cinda Canning. I mean, it was clearly written for Tina Fey, but I think that it was the pandemic, and maybe they weren't sure who was available and who was not available. And so I think maybe for a minute she wasn't available, or it looked like she might not be. So the casting office just, like, put out an audition, and I had gotten an audition, and reading it, I was like, this is supposed to be Tina Fey, but okay. And I. So I did that audition, and,
- [12:08]
Joshua Alan Griffith
and
- [12:08]
Idina Verson
I guess they liked me so much that they wrote Poppy for me.
- [12:13]
Elizabeth Keener
Oh, wow.
- [12:14]
Idina Verson
Which is, like, crazy.
- [12:17]
Elizabeth Keener
That's even better.
- [12:19]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Wow.
- [12:19]
Idina Verson
But it was also, I,
- [12:22]
Elizabeth Keener
I.
- [12:24]
Idina Verson
It was kind of terrifying also, though, because I. I mean, the way that I auditioned with Cinda, like, it wasn't Poppy. And, and as an actor, like, usually when you audition for something, then you know, going in, what I did is what they want. But I never auditioned with Poppy. And they were like, we. We like you, so we wrote this role for you. And I was like. So then I went and had, like, an existential crisis, and I was like, do they want me to do what I did for Cinder, or do they. They don't know me, so who do they think I am? So who do they write this for? Or do I just do it? Like, what. It's written on the page. Like, how did you, you know, establish.
- [13:04]
Elizabeth Keener
How did you resolve that with yourself? Or did you. Did you talk to anyone?
- [13:08]
Kevin Wan
Don't overthink it.
- [13:10]
Idina Verson
I know. I'm a real overthinker.
- [13:11]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I.
- [13:12]
Idina Verson
You know, actually, the. The day that we were supposed to shoot, I, like, was really freaking out about it. And it's just. I mean, it's like, you know, I had three lines in that scene, but it was just like the first during the pandemic, I had, like, had a baby from the theater, and I. The theater had shut down. I had been in my home for not seeing anybody. And then suddenly they're like, okay, you're gonna go on set around 100 people and be in a room with Steve Martin and Martin Short and Selena Gomez and Tina Fey. And I was like, I don't know what my life is.
- [13:47]
Elizabeth Keener
Wow.
- [13:48]
Idina Verson
But the first day that we were supposed to shoot, I. I think somebody had tested positive on set or something, so it had got it. So it was last minute delayed, and by the time they rescheduled, I had, like, calmed myself down. From Zinda Canning Productions, this is White Noise. I'm your host, Poppy White.
- [14:09]
Elizabeth Keener
So Poppy narrates this episode and changes from a villain to an ally. Can you tell us about her character and the journey she is on?
- [14:18]
Idina Verson
I think
- [14:21]
Joshua Alan Griffith
maybe there's part of me that saw a little bit of myself and Poppy when I was watching the first season.
- [14:27]
Elizabeth Keener
Here's Joshua, the co writer of the episode.
- [14:30]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Just as a. Not as a writer, but as an audience member and as a fan. And I related a lot to that character in a lot of ways and the, you know, the journey of ambition and paying dues and how much you're willing to put up with. Been in some of those situations before, so it was easy for me to relate to it. And also, she's just. She's put in such funny positions in the first season that I think. I don't remember at what point we thought maybe she could narrate this episode. But I think that first the cold open where she pulls the microphone to her mouth and starts to narrate her own fictional podcast. It. It's sort of what we do as writers who are trying to break in when we're support staff in writers rooms or on the production sides of things. We're watching the people who we want to emulate and that we're learning from. And so I think it all came from that sort of. For me, at least, it came from that sort of perspective.
- [15:49]
Ben Smith
Yeah. And just to add on to that, it was kind of. I feel like the episode for me clicked in in some ways when we. When we figured out her opening narration and what this, like, fictional podcast she was narrating as she watched Cinda. And the theme we had was, like, the stories you tell yourself. And we kind of went through a suite of our main characters. You know, Oliver, you know, everything's gonna be okay. He's doing the paternity stuff that Charles like, this time it'll be different or something like that, as he's meeting Jan in prison and not trying to slip back into that. And Mabel, you know, I can have a fresh start or I can leave the past in the past, forget what exactly we said, but her with Alice, and just. It just kind of felt like a moment to take stock of all of our characters and kind of. I mean, this is six. They're kind of right in the middle of their journey this season, and it felt interesting to kind of see where they want to be or kind of, like the delusions to tell themselves. But we know it's not that easy. And Poppy has been lying to herself as well. And I think this episode, for all of our characters, there's a big eye opening. I mean, Mabel's world's kind of rocked at the end there. Charles is called out in the car. Oliver has this kind of knife hanging over his head, in a way, is what's going to happen with this email with his results, that it just felt like a very relatable thing for all our characters. And to kind of tell it through a different side character. Poppy was kind of a fun opportunity, and we always knew we wanted to return to Cinda and that world, the podcasting world. And so I think Joshua and I were both excited at the idea of Poppy kind of being our entry into it.
- [17:32]
Idina Verson
I really like Poppy, and I really love how they wrote her story. And, yeah, I have a lot of love for her, so it's really special to be able to share her more.
- [17:43]
Kevin Wan
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Easter eggs, glitter bombs, and what the heck is going on with Alice?
- [17:51]
Elizabeth Keener
That sounds like a party I've had. In the very opening of the episode, we see Poppy looking over Cinda's calendar, and if you take a second to pause, you'll see some pretty hilarious things slotted into Cinda's schedule.
- [18:07]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I remember that conversation. That was a lot of fun to pitch on.
- [18:12]
Kevin Wan
Cinda's a busy lady.
- [18:15]
Ben Smith
I think when we wrote it in script, we said, like, you know, we see her calendar, and we'd written maybe two or three things, and then we wrote comma, etc. We just kind of left it a little open ended. But some of the things we had written. And anytime you put something in script, a month later they're filming and art department reaches out and they're like, okay, we're making the image for the calendar. We have two things. But you said, etc, what is et cetera? And you're like, oh, my God. Okay, I guess it's time to figure that out.
- [18:45]
Kevin Wan
You know what, Keener? I took a screenshot of the calendar and I wanted to read just a couple of the events Cinda's got coming up this week.
- [18:53]
Elizabeth Keener
Woo hoo.
- [18:54]
Kevin Wan
Primal scream every day at 5am underwater pilates, clitoral stimulation with Jake, neck thing. And dinner meeting with limbless Letitia.
- [19:06]
Elizabeth Keener
Okay, okay. Now that full on sounds like a party I've had in the past or a couple of parties I've had in the past.
- [19:12]
Kevin Wan
It kind of mirrors your calendar, Tina.
- [19:14]
Elizabeth Keener
It does mirror. You know, I think they just ripped it right out of my. You know how they. One of the shows rips from the headlines kind of thing in New York. Well, this rips from my calendar.
- [19:24]
Kevin Wan
Rip from Keener's calendar.
- [19:26]
Ben Smith
And that's what etc. Became. And we can't take all credit or all blame for that. I think there was a moment in the writer's room where it's like they're asking for et cetera. What is that? And we had to all yell out some ideas.
- [19:37]
Kevin Wan
Even though Poppy's stuck managing Cinda's weird schedule, we learn that she has larger aspirations when she unplugs the microphone and does her best radio voice.
- [19:47]
Idina Verson
But even the most convincing fictions have their fault. But the truth always has a way of.
- [19:56]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I'd be. I'd be curious to know if she has a podcast voice like who she's emulating with her poppy white voice because it's such a npr, you know, soft Sarah K. Type of tone. And I wonder if she's got a specific person in mind when she's doing it. She's like, I'm Audie Cornish in this moment.
- [20:18]
Elizabeth Keener
Or is there a vowel?
- [20:19]
Joshua Alan Griffith
You know, going after Cinda. Yeah, I'd be curious to know that.
- [20:24]
Elizabeth Keener
We just spoke to the writers of Episode. The Episode six. Right. Joshua, yesterday, and he was curious if there was a specific podcast or radio host you were modeling when you were doing your podcast narration in the episode of White Noise.
- [20:41]
Idina Verson
You know, I mean, all the podcasts that I listen to, I feel like I, I think that I was channeling more npr.
- [20:50]
Elizabeth Keener
Yes.
- [20:51]
Idina Verson
Than podcast, because I feel like, podcast is kind of, like, gravelly, like, kind of real, like.
- [20:59]
Elizabeth Keener
What do you mean?
- [21:00]
Idina Verson
What do you mean? I have vocal fry.
- [21:03]
Kevin Wan
Hey, everybody. It's popping,
- [21:10]
Idina Verson
Like, thinking of fresh air or like, you know, like. That's very gross. Totally. It's, like, kind of what I was vibing. Yeah.
- [21:19]
Kevin Wan
So this episode, there is a scene that takes place at Bunny's apartment where Cinda and Poppy are with the trio, Charles, Oliver and Mabel, with the detective played by Michael Rapoport. Can you tell us a little bit about that scene?
- [21:33]
Idina Verson
Yeah, it was fun to like, be in. Well, to be in Bunny's apartment, honestly, was really cool.
- [21:42]
Joshua Alan Griffith
All the.
- [21:43]
Idina Verson
On the soundstage, there's all these. I mean, it's all the apartments, basically, and I hadn't seen Bunny's apartment. And usually when you're shooting in. In one room, then, like, there's a holding room is one of the other apartments. So you kind of get to know, like, the apartments in the. And like, the. Cinda's recording studio is also on that stage and stuff. But that was my favorite set was. Is bunnies and. And there were, like, pictures of little Jane. Jane Howell. Like, a little Jane. How? There were, like, little frame photos all over the place.
- [22:20]
Ben Smith
Like, her.
- [22:21]
Kevin Wan
The actress as a. As a young girl.
- [22:23]
Idina Verson
Yeah, it's like they had, like, photoshopped, I think she grew up in, like, Kansas, but they had, like, photoshopped her into some, like, met, like, like, city
- [22:29]
Kevin Wan
New York kind of stuff.
- [22:31]
Idina Verson
So.
- [22:32]
Elizabeth Keener
Amazing.
- [22:34]
Idina Verson
Little, like, horn rib glasses. Yeah. And. But, yeah, so it was cool to be on that set. And then. And just the set decoration of this show is incredible. So, like, anytime, like, I just love looking around with, like, all the little knickknacks on the shelf and the books and all the traces are just so detailed.
- [22:52]
Elizabeth Keener
Detailed. Yeah.
- [22:53]
Idina Verson
But, yeah, then that was my first time ever meeting Michael Rapaport, and he's like, such a character. I mean, like, everybody in that room is just such a character. And then to have the writers or John Hoffman, like, give him some alternate lines. Like, I mean, alternate lines for Detective Crips is, like. Are pretty funny.
- [23:16]
Ben Smith
Yeah.
- [23:18]
Kevin Wan
And do you recall any of those?
- [23:20]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Yeah, probably a while ago.
- [23:22]
Idina Verson
I know I don't specifically. I just remember laughing quite a lot. And honestly, it's. They were probably dirty enough that I wouldn't want to.
- [23:31]
Kevin Wan
Okay.
- [23:32]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Thanks to you, we're getting more anonymous tips than a Penn Station glory hole.
- [23:36]
Idina Verson
Okay, I'm sorry.
- [23:37]
Elizabeth Keener
We know there's an Easter egg in the opening credits of each episode. Can you tell us what? That is for episode six. People might know. Already have seen it. But do you know what it is in the. In the opening credits?
- [23:53]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I don't.
- [23:56]
Kevin Wan
I.
- [23:57]
Elizabeth Keener
Did you see KK I forget. Was it something that looked like.
- [24:01]
Kevin Wan
I think I saw it at the very, very end when it's the top of the roof, and I'm just. I took a picture of it.
- [24:08]
Elizabeth Keener
You said it looked like what it was.
- [24:11]
Kevin Wan
It either looks like a firework or like a Covid thing. I'll kind of hold it up to the screen. That's at the very end.
- [24:16]
Elizabeth Keener
Is that it?
- [24:18]
Ben Smith
That's probably the glitter bomb.
- [24:20]
Elizabeth Keener
The glitter bomb, Duh. Yeah, it's the COVID glitter bomb. Oh, my God. God, of course it is.
- [24:29]
Kevin Wan
Well, we had that all wrong.
- [24:30]
Elizabeth Keener
You know, we're great sleuths. KK And I are just brilliant at this. We are just the most amazing people at the show.
- [24:36]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I can't believe. I can't believe you guys only just realized that this show is an allegory about COVID You're like, a season and a half into it. Come on. Season seven, episode 21, the fake evidence. We tell them we'll put the matchbook inside a Stop and Shop bag in a trash can outside Morningside park, and then twist. The evidence is fake. Saw that twist coming.
- [25:00]
Idina Verson
It was in the episode name instead.
- [25:03]
Joshua Alan Griffith
It's a paint bomb. Okay.
- [25:06]
Ben Smith
That I didn't expect. Yeah. Boom.
- [25:08]
Joshua Alan Griffith
The bomb goes off, marking our targets. We rush in, make a citizen's arrest. Now, we don't have a paint bomb, so we could maybe glitter.
- [25:15]
Elizabeth Keener
Did you say glitter? Yeah.
- [25:17]
Kevin Wan
If my years in regional theater and
- [25:20]
Ben Smith
wild orgies have taught me anything, it's
- [25:22]
Kevin Wan
that there's no getting rid of glitter. Can you tell us where the idea for the glitter bomb came from?
- [25:31]
Ben Smith
Hmm.
- [25:33]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Trying to remember. I think that was your idea, Ben.
- [25:38]
Ben Smith
It certainly was. Not from either of our pasts, I don't think. But it was kind of like, I think the way Joshua and I both think, if, you know, if we're talking about, like, similar ways of thinking, it comes from a very logical place initially. And then once you've established the logical groundwork, then you add the comedy and the insanity on top of it. And so we started from the place of. We have figured out that we are texting someone who we now believe to be the killer. And we know that, but we don't think that they know we're onto them. So what do we do? And so we're kind of like, going through all these different permutations of a sting operation. And one idea was brought up was like, oh, the paint money bags at banks, that could be a fun thing. What if they're afraid to actually directly confront a murderer? But what if we mark them so we can then strategize or tell the police or something like that? And then I forget whose idea it was, but it was like, we always look through the prism of how would our characters. How would it be different? Because it's our characters doing it. And they wouldn't do the version of a paint bomb. It would be Oliver. And Oliver would do a glitter bomb. And so we're like, okay, is this totally insane? And there were definitely moments where we thought this was totally insane, but we're like, okay, let's just try it and see how it feels. But that's my recollection of kind of like taking logic to a point, and then he would do that.
- [27:03]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I hate glitter. So maybe that was in there somewhere. Just anytime I open a birthday card from one relative in particular who's obsessed with it, I. It's so maddening to me. That might have been in there. I'm sure I seconded the idea with that because I feel very strongly opposed to glitter.
- [27:26]
Ben Smith
John Hoffman would say they are two of his favorite shots of the whole season. And I just want to shout out to our director Shirin, 1 and Joshua. And I love this shot too. It's the glitter bomb glowing off, going off. And that was something we loved, is when we wrote it, we were thinking of all the different permutations. Are we inside the car? Are we outside the car? Are we. Do we. Do they see this thing happening and we just kind of. In writing it, we're like. It would be kind of lovely if it's a moment for the audience where our characters are on a stakeout, but they get so engrossed in their own story that they forget about why they're actually here. And the audience gets the treat of it, and they realize. The characters realize 10 seconds later. And we always loved that idea. And they pulled it off the beautifully. So huge kudos to them.
- [28:12]
Elizabeth Keener
Here's showrunner and co creator John Hoffman on the glitter bomb.
- [28:16]
John Hoffman
One of my favorite scenes in the whole season is the stakeout in the car outside Morningside park and. And the perfectly absurd moment that happens when the person they're waiting for comes along, but they're too deep in the middle of an emotional conversation
- [28:38]
Idina Verson
to know
- [28:38]
John Hoffman
what's going on directly out the window behind them. But outside of that, I think, yeah, I love getting out in New York as much as possible. This episode held a lot of that and was challenging. It was very cold out by Morningside park that day. But it is nice to get out there and feel the realness of New York. And this episode really was a moment where they had to break free because they found themselves too deep in the mire of being, you know, what's going to happen to us next? We have to take a sort of forward motion action ourselves. So out they go. They have to put themselves out there. But putting yourself out there can reveal things by the end of episode six for Mabel, certainly that she's not prepared for.
- [29:32]
Elizabeth Keener
Yes, there is a big reveal for Mabel. Alice is up to something very strange. First, the Son of Sam card at the end of episode five. Then we catch her taking a photograph of the floor in Mabel's apartment where Bunny died. And by the end, we see that she seems to be recreating moments from Mabel's life on film.
- [29:50]
Idina Verson
Mabel, what are you doing here? What am I. This is my apartment.
- [29:57]
Elizabeth Keener
I'm sorry.
- [29:58]
Idina Verson
You weren't meant to see it like this.
- [30:00]
Elizabeth Keener
Not yet. Let me explain.
- [30:03]
Idina Verson
I was just trying to help.
- [30:04]
Ben Smith
You know, I was looking through trauma
- [30:06]
Kevin Wan
through a fine art lens.
- [30:06]
Idina Verson
I was going for something more photo. Mabel?
- [30:11]
Ben Smith
Mabel, are you okay? Mabel, Let me explain.
- [30:16]
Kevin Wan
Totally bizarre. And it made us wonder, are we supposed to understand what's going on? As expected, Ben and Joshua were pretty tight lipped.
- [30:24]
Ben Smith
I mean, I think what you can take away from it is that in five, she's a liar, you know, and she's good at lying. You know, she was caught by Oliver, or you know, he thought he did, but she had switched her card or whatnot. That she is duplicitous. How much for own backstory is true or not true is a fair open question. And certainly part of her duplicitousness is that she's capitalizing or attempting to capitalize on Mabel's story and her trauma and her fame for Alice's own art. I think still very open questions about what is on truthful or not truthful or duplicit or not duplicitous are her feelings for Mabel? Is it all long game? Is that what is real there and or what is her involvement in what happened with Bunny? I think those things are not answered currently. I think what her relation that she's been up to something and trying to progress her own art career through Mabel is kind of what we've discovered at this point.
- [31:31]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Yeah, I think that's a great way of describing it. And I think also from a somatic perspective, we were talking a lot about artists and storytellers and the question of what is up for grabs in terms of inspiration in our lives when we're looking for the stories that we're telling. What's fair game, what's intrusive into other people's lives and what's okay to call our own work. And I think that Alice, obviously has taken it a step too far and become a bit of a parasite. But I think there's moments, certainly when I've been writing something where I've felt the same way, where I felt like I've intruded upon the lives of my family, certainly, and some of my friends. And it's an interesting line to toe because that line is often the, you know, the moneymaker, the edginess and the thing that gets people interested and excited and holds their attention. So, yeah, it's a juicy place to look for a type of artist, I think.
- [32:50]
Ben Smith
I think you're totally right, Joshua, that we do mine. Like, we as writers, mind that. And it's a very real thing that happens in the artistic community. So I think in many ways, it is totally fair and not out of the ordinary. And for Mabel, the portrayal is that part of what she really likes about Alice is it feels as though Alice doesn't care about the bloody Mabel stuff in the same way that the rest of the world does. That's what sets her apart. Only to discover, oh, no, you are using my story.
- [33:23]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Alice drew Mabel in and made her feel comfortable, and all the while was collecting information as well and recreating it. I think at this point in the season, we don't have total clarity on what Alice intends to do with that piece of work. Maybe she was doing it for Mabel. That's a question that we eventually answer. But I think that the fact that their relationship was romantic makes it. Is what makes it a betrayal.
- [34:00]
Ben Smith
To me. There was something about, like, Mabel jumping into it very quickly, and not necessarily that it became very serious, but like, that there was that. Maybe even as an audience member, as you watch it, you're, like, wondering and concerned, like, are these good decisions? Is this a good partner? Is this a good thing you're doing? And I think some of that's tied into where she's been. Like, she's just coming out of a really traumatizing first season where she's now bloody Mabel. And I think we were embracing kind of this messiness of her life in that moment and in her romantic decisions. And I think you, as an audience member, have more clarity in terms of what's going on than even Mabel does. But I think part of this journey of the season is kind of like finding her footing again.
- [34:50]
Kevin Wan
Mabel doesn't exactly feel like she's finding her footing yet.
- [34:54]
Elizabeth Keener
No. But she did find her knitting needle by the end of this episode. We're going to take another quick break, and when we come back, Mabel's breaking point. What role Poppy has to play in solving our mystery, and, of course, the whodunit summit.
- [35:14]
Kevin Wan
So we were really glad to see Saz Pataky back this season. Was that always part of the plan to have Jane lynch return for season two?
- [35:23]
Ben Smith
I mean, I think with this show, like, the short answer is always yes, that we have so many wonderful actors who you kind of pinch yourself that you're working with them. And I feel like John and multiple times will look around the writers room to writers who this may be their first job, and he's like, this is not normal. Like, it's not normal to get this talented group always, like, wanting. They were always game. And so it was something where we always knew it'd be fun to have Szaz back, have Jane lynch back. It was kind of like if her schedule would allow it, we have fun little things to do. And it made total sense going back into the brazos world that we would see her because she's so part rich in that. And then kind of the second layer was like, it feels like a little wasteful to bring her back in a totally expected way and just have her do what we expect her to do. So what's kind of the new. How can we integrate her? And it's like, oh, what if we help her with not just Charles's work on stage, but his or on screen, but his trouble, like, in his emotional, interpersonal life as well.
- [36:30]
Joshua Alan Griffith
It was. It was fun having the voice. The voice is pretty much there for the taking. You know, I remember seeing maybe it was in some of Ben's pages just the phrase like, oh, mama or something. You know, it's like something that could only really exist in Jane Lynch's mouth. It's just so much fun because it stands out, you know, next to anybody else's dialogue. And it's just so much fun to write.
- [36:56]
Idina Verson
Hello again, Charles. Hayden, Sass,
- [37:05]
Kevin Wan
Bear with me here, babe.
- [37:06]
Joshua Alan Griffith
I'm almost off book.
- [37:07]
Elizabeth Keener
Charles just sent these pages.
- [37:10]
Idina Verson
What is that?
- [37:12]
Elizabeth Keener
Are those lines?
- [37:13]
Kevin Wan
Roseanne, camera.
- [37:16]
Idina Verson
Action.
- [37:17]
Kevin Wan
Jan, we need to talk. It gives me no pleasure to say this, but I think we should see Other people. That personal drama that Szaz is able to come up with is what distracted our trio when the glitter bomb originally exploded at the park.
- [37:35]
Elizabeth Keener
Yeah. But luckily or unluckily, by the end of the episode, Mabel has another chance to identify the person who has been texting them.
- [37:42]
Joshua Alan Griffith
Who doesn't want to write a scene on the New York subway. You know, I think that was such a cool setting for an act of violence. And I think some. Especially an act of violence that's going to metastasize in a certain way, like via social media or however it was
- [37:59]
Ben Smith
a scene that I think we'd kind of been. Had been in our minds since the beginning of the season, since early on in the season. And I don't think we knew when we were going to place it initially, but we knew, right? Like Mabel says on her opening podcast in episode one of season one, I imagine taking out my knitting needle and taking it guy down to the bone. Like, we bring that back at the start of this season when Craps plays it on the podcast. We have her. You know, Bunny has been stabbed. She is the main suspect in this case. So we knew that. Like, we were thinking of, can we get to a point in the middle of the season where she now actually has stabbed someone? And we can understand the circumstances, what happened, but this puts her in much deeper and hotter water than in the Bunny investigation. In an episode where we've talked about Mabel's past behavior with Jimmy Russo and, like, injuring him. Whether or not the events of what happened, as Cinda says it, are correct or not, we've established in her mind, like, this history of violence that Mabel has rejected that about herself and says it's all lies. Only in this moment for it to come to the surface and just kind of all these muddled questions for identity. So we knew that we wanted her to stab someone in the middle of the season. And, like, how do we get there? And so it was, I think, one. Like, we knew we wanted to get there, and we had to work backwards and working backwards in terms of getting her to this emotionally fraught place. And that was a lot of what that backtracking, that Alice scene. And Joshua wrote that, and it was, like, very filmic and very emotional, like her entering this bizarre, disorienting world, like, to be in the studio that looks like home, seeing people from her life that are not quite those people, and that that causes a break. And we've talked, we've established she's had this fragility of her memory in her Mind. And the previous. With the Night of Bunny, Seth, how can we get her there again? And so it was a fun scene to write, but it started at the beginning of the season. It started six pages earlier as well. We were trying to work up to that moment, so I think it was a really fun kind of larger, big picture puzzle to work backwards from.
- [40:17]
Joshua Alan Griffith
In a lot of ways, it's an episode of breaking points, too. For Poppy, the narrator, it's a breaking point where she, like you said, she goes from being enemy to ally for. For Charles and his relationship, it's a breaking point. A breakup point. Haha. And an emotional breaking point for. For Oliver and for Mabel, too, that I don't know, that I can't remember if we went into it with that realization. But I think there's definitely something thematically happening that's resonating between those storylines. And that visceral breaking point for Mabel, like Ben said, was something that we had always intended to place at some point in the season, and it felt like that was the right moment.
- [41:01]
Elizabeth Keener
Another character who's reached her breaking point is Poppy. Here's Adina.
- [41:05]
Kevin Wan
So towards the end of this episode, in a phone call with Mabel, Poppy starts dishing some dirt on Cinda. Does Poppy have an important role to play in the next few episodes?
- [41:18]
Idina Verson
I. I mean, I think. I think I'm part of the puzzle. I mean, everybody has one of the puzzle pieces, but, yeah, I mean, it seems to me like they, you know, keep it open at the end of this episode to be able to maybe use Poppy. Yeah. For something.
- [41:42]
Elizabeth Keener
Poppy likes to be used. Let's just say I do.
- [41:53]
Kevin Wan
Hey, Keener, guess what.
- [41:54]
Elizabeth Keener
What?
- [41:55]
Kevin Wan
Kk, it's time for my favorite part of the show, the whodunit. This is where Keener and I, based on what we've seen so far, write down who we think the killer is, seal it in an envelope until right now, when we rip open the envelope and explain why we picked who we picked. Keener.
- [42:15]
Elizabeth Keener
Yes. Oh, okay.
- [42:17]
Kevin Wan
Are you ready? I'm gonna rip yours open.
- [42:18]
Idina Verson
Ready?
- [42:20]
Kevin Wan
Hold on. There we go. And you picked Poppy.
- [42:29]
Elizabeth Keener
Yes. Listen, again, I cannot wait to go for it. I think I've picked her. Like, did I pick her three times now? I think so.
- [42:39]
Kevin Wan
At least twice.
- [42:40]
Elizabeth Keener
At least twice. At least the second time. But I don't. I don't know. I just feel that there's things bubbling under. It's just bubbling under, you know, like, it's seething. It's something oozing. It's oozing. Something's Happening where I think Poppy, she just wants to. Maybe she explodes every now and then. So I just believe, you know, now I'm thinking about it probably isn't Poppy, but I'm just. I'm gonna stick with it.
- [43:07]
Kevin Wan
Poppy, Stick to your gun.
- [43:10]
Elizabeth Keener
Stick to my guns. Okay, now it's your turn.
- [43:14]
Kevin Wan
Yes.
- [43:14]
Elizabeth Keener
Ready?
- [43:14]
Kevin Wan
Now we have a real suspect.
- [43:15]
Elizabeth Keener
Open yours. You have a real suspect. How dare you, sir. Okay, here we go. It is Cinda. Okay, very good. Why Cinda again? KK Again.
- [43:29]
Kevin Wan
Well, it's funny. I think you picked Poppy and I picked Cinder for the first episode, and we're doing it again now.
- [43:34]
Elizabeth Keener
I think so.
- [43:36]
Kevin Wan
I just don't like Cinda. I think there's something going on there. I think she's calculating. I think she would do anything for her podcast. And even on a lesser note, I think she doesn't want to have to travel somewhere like Oklahoma or leave town. She wants to stay in New York. So doing this case allows her to do that. And she does not like the attention Charles, Oliver and Mabel have been taking away from her podcast.
- [44:01]
Elizabeth Keener
Look at how you say that by
- [44:03]
Kevin Wan
naming her podcast Only Murderers. Yeah, so those are my original ideas.
- [44:08]
Elizabeth Keener
Okay. I like your pick. I'm not gonna steal it right now. Maybe next episode. Because remember, in the very beginning, I don't know why I keep going back to Cinda in that hoodie. Wasn't she, like, in a red hoodie or something? The very first. Last season? She was in a hoodie. What wasn't that.
- [44:23]
Kevin Wan
Oh, the very first. First.
- [44:24]
Elizabeth Keener
Very first episode. And I don't know why. Why she. A hoodie. And then there's hoodies, you know, with blood all over.
- [44:30]
Kevin Wan
I think it was raining, to be fair, but.
- [44:33]
Elizabeth Keener
Well, that's called an umbrella or something or. Or a raincoat. I mean, not. Not a h. Thanks for listening to season two, episode six of Only Murders in the Pod. Our inbox is open again, so please send over your thoughts and theories to only murdersrawhutmedia.com and if you're enjoying the show like I know you are, please, please leave us a rating and a review. It really helps people find the show.
- [45:10]
Kevin Wan
Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted by Elizabeth Keener, me and Kevin Lon, produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Penn Bowles Associate producer is Stephen Markley, original music by Kyle Merritt, and Only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Xavier Salas, Louisa Maltini, and the entire Hulu team.
- [45:44]
Elizabeth Keener
Kk it's time to get some fan mail.
- [45:49]
Kevin Wan
Fan mail.
- [45:49]
Elizabeth Keener
Fan mail. Yay. Woo hoo.
- [45:51]
Kevin Wan
We got a lot of good responses.
- [45:53]
Elizabeth Keener
We always get great responses. And I wish we could talk about all of them, but it's just too difficult. So. But I just wanted to one person, Renee said here. This was so interesting. She said. So I was really skeptical of the idea that Lenora and Rose are the same person. But Lenora roses are a real flower. Look how pretty and complicated they are. That's a real flower. Lenora rose.
- [46:16]
Kevin Wan
So Lenora is a type of rose?
- [46:19]
Elizabeth Keener
Yes. Isn't that interesting? So somebody said a pen name. Remember the pen name that someone mentioned? That could be when a lot of artists have pen names and things like that, and they put, you know, authors, all of them. So many have different pen names. And so that could be her artist pen name. Yes. And it could just be her. Right. And who's to say she really is Bunny's mom? Did anybody ever meet Bunny's mom? We don't know. We don't know any of that yet.
- [46:48]
Kevin Wan
So I am picking a letter from Ken A. And I'm picking him because he had a very interesting theory and one that I had never even thought of. But he suspects that superfan Marv. You know, remember, he's one of the Arconiacs.
- [47:02]
Elizabeth Keener
Right.
- [47:03]
Kevin Wan
He suspects him because he said in the diner that he knows about the secret passageways because he's done mold remediation for them.
- [47:11]
Elizabeth Keener
Right.
- [47:12]
Kevin Wan
And he said in an earlier episode that Marv has issues with women in authority over men, and that could be a potential reason for not liking Bunny.
- [47:23]
Elizabeth Keener
I'm gonna have to look back. I don't even remember that. A lot of people think I saw that, think it's Marv. A lot of people think that it's possibly Poppy. It's all over the place. It really is.
- [47:34]
Kevin Wan
It is all over the place.
- [47:35]
Elizabeth Keener
Right? Wait, listen. You know the anagrams real fast. Somebody said, yeah, Lucy, sometimes she's called loose. And if you move it around, it's clue. So that's interesting. I mean, you know, I just like when.
- [47:47]
Kevin Wan
Oh, and Emily. Emily. Speaking of anagrams, Emily B. She said that Mrs. Gambalini, the bird is a perfect amigram for M. Mora sibling. And she says, does Mora. Does Mabel have a secret sibling? Another Maura.
- [48:04]
Elizabeth Keener
Wow, this is fascinating, everybody, that you dive deep. I mean, I didn't get to say there's other people like Rob. Thank you for yours.
- [48:13]
Kevin Wan
Matt, Ethan, Rhonda, Heidi, you just keep going. Keep them coming.
- [48:18]
Elizabeth Keener
Keep them coming. Thank you so much. Amazing. Amazing. Oh, one other thing. Someone said that there are 14 floors on the original, the real Arconia. So someone thinks Amy Schumer up there.
- [48:29]
Kevin Wan
The actual real building.
- [48:31]
Elizabeth Keener
Yeah, yeah.