S2 E7 BONUS: Flipping the Pieces - LIVE REDDIT TALK

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

Episode: S2 E7 BONUS: Flipping the Pieces - LIVE REDDIT TALK
Date: August 9, 2022
Featured Guests: Stephen M. Irwin (writer), Ben Philippe (writer)
Host Panel: Steve, KK, Hannah

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Overview

In this engaging, fan-driven Reddit Talk episode, writers Stephen M. Irwin and Ben Philippe join the Only Murders in the Pod hosts to discuss behind-the-scenes details from Season 2, Episode 7, "Flipping the Pieces." With a focus on Theo and Mabel’s story arcs, the writers reveal tidbits about writing for deaf characters, the collaborative process in the writers’ room, incorporating fan speculation, and the playful on-set moments that define the show’s charm and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fan Theories & Community Sleuthing

(00:11 – 03:34)

• The episode opens by highlighting the role of the Only Murders subreddit in dissecting clues, with particular focus on fan theories about the Coney Island scenes and speculation on the identity of "Glitter Guy/Gal."
• Writers and hosts discuss the community’s obsession with "man hands" and the ongoing debate over whether Marv or Ivan could be suspects.

Quote:
“They’re sleuthing the hand. A lot of people are saying Marv or the waiter... Ivan seems to be getting back into the conversation again.”
— Host Steve (01:49)

2. The Writers’ Relationship with Reddit & Fandom

(03:35 – 05:05)

• Stephen admits to lurking and enjoying positive comments, while Ben describes himself as a "dedicated Luddite" using Reddit for the first time during this talk.
• Jokes abound about Ben’s remote life and “manifesto-writing,” adding a light-hearted, self-aware tone.

Quote:
“I’m a pretty dedicated Luddite, so this is actually my first time using Reddit in my entire life.”
— Ben Philippe (04:28)

3. Behind-the-Scenes: Writing for Theo & Deaf Representation

(05:58 – 08:54)

• Discussion of the significance behind Theo's line: "A lot of deaf people don’t get to write shows." The writers explain its meta-commentary on representation and the particular challenges of writing a deaf character as hearing writers.
• They credit Joey (James Caverly, who plays Theo) for shaping the authenticity of Theo on screen.

Quote:
“We were both very cognizant of, like, how much can a deaf person actually glean when reading lips... and pay a little service to the idea that there are two hearing writers working on this and then the larger element of who gets to tell stories.”
— Stephen M. Irwin (06:00)

4. Theo’s Backstory and Living Situation

(08:04 – 09:22)

• Fans ask if Theo still lives in the Arconia; the writers clarify he has his own apartment, a narrative decision reflecting both independence and ongoing paternal influence.

Quote:
“I think his dad got him an apartment in a separate building, maybe in his early 20s as a sign of independence, but also as a way of yielding power over him.” — Stephen M. Irwin (08:18)

5. Notable Details & Easter Eggs

(10:00 – 10:49)

• When Theo shares a subway video with Mabel, eagle-eyed fans spot that the interface mimics Reddit itself—a conscious wink to the online community from the show's design and writing crew.

Quote:
“That was maybe us... paying homage to the community of people who made this show by talking about it so much and taking it to heart.”
— Stephen M. Irwin (10:27)

6. Favorite Scenes to Write & Actor Collaborations

(11:07 – 13:14, 18:25 – 21:01)

• Stephen and Ben reflect on writing Mabel and Theo’s tense yet meaningful interactions, praising Selena Gomez and James Caverly’s on-screen chemistry.
• Both express delight at seeing their material interpreted by the actors, with Stephen humorously recounting his own nervousness meeting Selena Gomez.

Quote:
“Watching Ben Philippe interact with Selena Gomez for the first time—that was a truly special moment in my life.”
— Stephen M. Irwin (12:26)

• Writers highlight the nuances Joey brings to Theo: "There's something really sinister about that [grave robber] character on paper, but Joey adds a layer of softness... he didn't really take full shape in my mind until we saw Theo on set."
  — Stephen M. Irwin (21:01)

7. Crafting the Puzzle Metaphor

(15:20 – 16:43)

• Writers explain how Mabel’s mental state was visualized through the metaphor of a puzzle missing pieces—a central motif for the episode and the series at large.

Quote:
“We wanted to find a way of visualizing it into literal puzzle piece. And that’s sort of what ends up happening in this episode. The metaphor of the puzzle allowed her to put it back together.”
— Stephen M. Irwin (16:03)

8. Shipping Theo and Mabel – Writer and Fan Dynamics

(13:39 – 14:25)

• Hosts educate the writers in fandom lingo, discussing the popularity of “shipping” Theo and Mabel (“Matteo,” “Evil” suggested as ship names).
• The collaborative process means no character is the sole purview of any one writer, though both Ben and Stephen admit Theo is particularly close to their hearts.

Quote:
“It’s way more collaborative than that... For Mark Lee and I, it’s—Theo’s a good boy.” — Stephen M. Irwin (17:54)

9. Writing Techniques, Red Herrings, and Continuity

(24:16 – 32:33)

• Questioned about their strategy for “red herrings,” the writers explain their intent to make every false lead plausible, designing the mystery so every detail truly could point to the killer given the right context.
• The challenge is heightened by a detail-obsessed fanbase who meticulously screenshots scenes for hidden meanings.

Quote:
“Once you have viewers who will take screenshots and zoom, you’re not dealing with just like throwing sitcom gags at the wall anymore. So you have to sort of be aware that you’re writing for very smart people.”
— Stephen M. Irwin (32:07)

10. Actors’ Contributions & Character Flourishes

(26:51 – 29:31)

• The writers praise Martin Short’s deep involvement in creating Oliver Putnam, noting his improvisation and his creation of Oliver’s quirky persona, including a backstory based on Timothée Chalamet.
• They describe the joy and surprise of seeing actors bring unexpected nuance and humor to their roles.

Quote:
“Martin is... so good at making Oliver as amazing as Martin Short actually is, but his own distinct character... He knows that character so well, which is weird for me as a writer, because... the actors... really just—They’ve imprinted on these characters in a really, really amazing way.”
— Stephen M. Irwin (27:33)

11. Inclusion, Authenticity, and Easter Eggs for Fans

(22:52 – 23:16)

• The show makes active efforts to include non-hearing audiences, mentioning that the podcast episode with James Caverly (Theo) is also available on YouTube, accommodating accessibility needs.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "I have a whole sort of branding strategy planned... Gut Milk Fizz... keto first, then low calorie, then we’re gonna be gluten conscious... a whole thing." — Stephen M. Irwin (02:37)
• "If I only get one pleasurable experience out of two years... it was watching Ben Philippe interact with Selena Gomez for the first time." — Stephen M. Irwin (12:26)
• "I really like Ursula. Other people really like Lester. But for Mark Lee and I, it’s—Theo’s a good boy." — Stephen M. Irwin (17:54)
• "Joey [Caverly] does such a great job of just adding so many layers to Theo... There’s something really sinister about that sort of character on paper, but Joey adds a layer of softness..." — Stephen M. Irwin (21:01)
• "The audience is so invested... you're not just throwing sitcom gags at the wall anymore. You're writing for very smart people." — Stephen M. Irwin (32:07)
• "What would Timothée Chalamet do? What would Timothée Chalamet wear? That’s so, so funny. Makes me look at [Oliver] in a different light..." — Host KK (29:05)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:11 – 03:34 Fan theories & community engagement
• 03:35 – 05:05 Writers’ relationships with Reddit
• 05:58 – 08:54 Writing Theo & representation
• 10:00 – 10:49 Reddit Easter egg in subway video scene
• 11:26 – 13:14 Favorite scenes and actor stories
• 15:20 – 16:43 The puzzle metaphor explained
• 17:07 – 17:54 Writers' favorite characters
• 18:25 – 21:01 On-set contributions from actors, especially James Caverly
• 22:52 – 23:16 Podcast accessibility for non-hearing audiences
• 26:51 – 29:31 Martin Short’s role in shaping Oliver
• 32:07 – 32:33 Writing red herrings for a sharp fandom

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is quirky, warm, and playful—much like the show itself. The writers and hosts enthusiastically celebrate fan participation, detail the complexities of representing diversity, and give listeners a peek into the collaborative spirit and creative joy that animate Only Murders in the Building. For those seeking clues, heartfelt moments, and insight into the show’s inner workings, this Reddit Talk captures the community magic on- and off-screen.

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Transcript

[Host KK]

Straw hut media.

[Host Steve]

Welcome to Only Murders in the Building Reddit talk with Only Murders in the Pod podcast and the writers of the episode for season two, episode seven.

[Host KK]

You know, maybe a little recap of this week's episode of the pod and then who your guesses were.

[Host Hannah]

Yes. I always like to start off with the guests. Yeah, well, obviously this was a. An episode where a lot of the action took place at Coney Island. So I picked Alice this week and it's kind of tied into that. So we know that they saw the person who they found, first of all, the Coney island employee ID badge. So that led them to Coney island in the first place. And then they saw the figure. I think that could be Alice. And obviously she is no stranger to dressing up in disguise. We've seen her dressed up as Mabel. I feel like she could have been using the empty Coney island amusement park as something to do for an art project. I think that would be something that she would be into. So my pick this week is Alice.

[Host Steve]

Interesting.

[Host Hannah]

Yeah. I'm not 100% confident on that, but that's who I'm working with.

[Host Steve]

There's a lot of talk about man hands on the subreddit.

[Host Hannah]

Man hands?

[Host Steve]

Yeah, because we see the one hand of Glitter guy or gal and a lot of people are sleuthing the hand. Yep, they're sleuthing the hand. A lot of people are saying Marv or the waiter, and his name just escaped me.

[Host Hannah]

Ivan.

[Host Steve]

Ivan. Thank you.

[Host Hannah]

Ivan seems to be getting back into the conversation again. Yeah, Marv seemed to be a popular person last week for sure.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Hello.

[Host Steve]

Well, hello.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Oh, yeah, people heard me.

[Host Steve]

Yes. You sound great and I am so loving your Reddit handle.

[Host Hannah]

Thanks.

[Ben Philippe]

I definitely do.

[Host Steve]

You created just for this talk?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yes.

[Host Hannah]

Was Gut Milk Zero taken?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I have a whole sort of branding strategy planned and I. I prefer to release them one at a time. So it's gonna be keto first and then low calorie, and then we're gonna be gluten conscious. It's gonna be a whole thing.

[Host Steve]

I mean, I love the introduction of the Gut Milk Fizz.

[Host Hannah]

It's a whole branding opportunity.

[Host Steve]

You're killing it. Lacroix is going to be knocking on your door soon. Well, welcome, welcome, welcome to Reddit. Stephen and Ben, you are on the dedicated subreddit for Only Murders in the Building. We've had some of your co workers on for a couple of talks the last few weeks and we have just love, love, loved getting to know all the writers, get to know the process a little Bit more and just. Have you all come through. It's just been a real treat.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having us.

[Host Steve]

Yeah. Yeah. We usually start because we've talked to a few writers and they've mentioned that they do come onto this sub from time to time to sleuth what the community is saying, seeing if there's any clues that people are globbing onto and of course, dispelling any rumors within the writer's room.

[Host Hannah]

Get a feeling for what's out there.

[Host Steve]

Yeah, exactly. How about. How about you, Stephen and Ben? Do you. Do you usually. Do you use Reddit in that way as well?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I think last year I was really trying hard to stay off the Internet. If people love the show, if they hated the show, I was just not going to engage. But then some people were saying that they're saying nice things about you on the Internet for episode 107. And that's all. That's all you need to tell me, to have me jump in there and scroll for hours and hours just soaking up all the praise.

[Ben Philippe]

I'm a. I'm a pretty dedicated Luddite, so this is actually my first time using Reddit in my entire life. How do you like that?

[Host Hannah]

Right now, Right this minute.

[Host Steve]

Welcome.

[Host Hannah]

Thank you.

[Ben Philippe]

Thank you.

[Host Steve]

Yeah, that's a whole other conversation that we can embark on. But this is so exciting.

[Ben Philippe]

I know. Well, I'm out here in my cabin in Montana, you know, building my Unabomber

[Host Hannah]

materials, working on the manifesto.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, I got my manifesto going and. Yeah, so good for you.

[Host Steve]

Well, thank you for sharing glimpses of your manifesto in the form of a TV show that a lot of people watch and love.

[Ben Philippe]

No problem.

[Host Steve]

We usually also start with a PSA for those that are new to Reddit talk. Welcome. This is our new ish audio feature. If you'd like to ask questions for any of the esteemed guests today, hit the hand icon to raise your hand and we will bring you up on stage to ask your question live. Alternatively, we are checking the comments throughout the entirety of the show. So if you want to drop any questions comments in there, feel free. They will be seen. Which leads us to our first question from the comments from Gosh Aggie Buon. I'll say they ask was Theo's signing of quote, a lot of deaf people don't get to write shows. A meta self ironic line. And who suggested its inclusion?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Mark Lee.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, I think. I. I can't remember who decided or who pitched that first, but it was in an early draft, if I recall. I think we were both, you know, we had been very cognizant of like, sort of the, you know, like, how much can a deaf person actually glean when reading lips. Right. Because it was such a. An important component of the storytelling in the first season. So I think we just wanted to sort of draw some attention to that and pay a little service to sort of the idea that there are two hearing writers working on this and then sort of the larger element of who gets to tell stories and. And all that good stuff. Is that fair, Ben?

[Host Steve]

Yeah.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

And I think early, early on when we were talking about Theo, we. We had like some sketchings of him as someone was aware that he's deaf, but doesn't consider it a disability at all. And this episode was a little slower and less sort of like hermetic than season one. So we wanted to sort of get a chance to glimpse his views about how the world sees deafness a little bit.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah. I think it's always challenging because Ben and I are both novelists and so, like, we're used to working on a huge canvas. Right. And so, you know, when we're talking about Theo and his backstory, we're coming up with this like, elaborate 500 page novel worth of material. And that obviously has to be Translated into a 30 minute episode of television. So just looking for those little places to get in his personality and get into his character, I think was very important.

[Host Steve]

Amazing. There is a lot, a lot, a lot of love for Theo this week on the sub. Some people are shipping him and Mabel. Yeah, yeah. They're like, they have good chemistry. Maybe there's something there. But a lot of people also just loving his story arc and seeing him again. And also a lot of. A lot of people talking about the reading of lips and just like the communication aspect between him and Mabel. But thank you so much for that. I will try to do my best again for both of you to a lot of people try to get some. Some extra intel from you. So I'll do my best to try to keep that to a minimum here.

[Host Hannah]

I have a quick question for Stephen and Ben. It's just a quick one. Is Theo still living in the Arconia or does he have his own apartment? The one that he took back to Ben.

[Ben Philippe]

You go. You do this.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Theo doesn't live in at the Arconia. I think his dad got him an apartment in a separate building, maybe in his early 20s as a sign of independence, but also as a way of yielding power over him. He's often at his dad's apartment and he grew up in the Arconia, but he does not live at the Arconia.

[Host Hannah]

Oh, okay. He doesn't live with his father.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Okay. Mark Lee, is that fair?

[Ben Philippe]

No, this was. Yeah. It's just funny because this was quite a point of discussion.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Oh.

[Ben Philippe]

When we were talking, I think we talked about this for, like, a whole day at one point.

[Host Hannah]

Yeah. When they showed his apartment, I'm like, I don't think that's the iconia.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

And on the page, I think it comes from both of us being novelists, but we really had, like, different images of what Theo's living space looked like. Like Denji sort of at the end of the subway line, just, you know, leaking pots everywhere. But it's still a gorgeous. Only murders in the building. Yeah, that's super nice.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, that's only murders in the building's idea of a crappy New York apartment.

[Host Hannah]

And he had a really nice headboard. I remember that.

[Host Steve]

And I saw he had the rowing machine. I was like, okay, Theo staying, staying fit.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I actually love that. I love that. Like, I don't want to pull at any threads, but there was one thing that some people noted in episode 107. How did Theo subdue both Mabel and Oliver? He's not that burly of a person. So we want to just, you know, let the world know that Theo keeps fit.

[Host Steve]

That's. I love that. That call out. It's like it's all. It's all explained.

[Host Hannah]

Eventually there's an acknowledgement.

[Host Steve]

Yes, he stays fit on the rowing machine. On the erg. I mean, speaking of a very small detail that, of course, we all loved seeing here is when Theo showed Mabel the video of him stabbing glitter person. We're not gonna say guy or gal on the subway. It looks like it was the Reddit interface that the video was on. Oh, any.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

She's really waiting for a question mark. I would say that was maybe us paying or like the. You know, the show's many, many calls on the design side of things. Paying homage or you pronounce that word to the community of people who made this show by talking about it so much and taking it to heart.

[Host Steve]

So wonderful.

[Host Hannah]

A nice little wink to them.

[Host Steve]

It was a wonderful wink. And, you know, you have to freeze frame it, but truth be told, a lot of hearts coming up in the audience here. Throw up any emojis for. For that little Reddit call out there, but we had to freeze frame it. But people. People definitely caught it, so thank you for that.

[Host Hannah]

They see you. They hear you.

[Host Steve]

Exactly. Our next question comes from Princess Peach 9, who has a little bit of flair of Ollie. Mabel, what was your favorite scene to write or that you are really happy with how it turned out this episode?

[Ben Philippe]

I think the interactions between Mabel and Theo were sort of obviously the core of the episode, and I got to go on set for it. Ben only showed up one day. Just for all you out there,

[Host Hannah]

easy.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I had a job.

[Host Steve]

I love it. He's not winning any attendance awards anytime soon. No.

[Ben Philippe]

It's like watching those two actors sort of learn from each other and interact. And seeing that experience between Selena and Joey was pretty amazing. So I very much enjoyed that.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah. Since we're talking out of school, I will just say that Mark Lee spent, like, three weeks on set, so he became really good friends with Selena and Joey and Steve and Martin. And the first time I sort of had to shake hands with Selena Gomez on set, I was just like, back to being in high school. I love your music. This isn't this school. We're at the Eternia.

[Host Hannah]

Hi, I'm Selena.

[Ben Philippe]

I mean, if I could take away nothing. Like, if I only get one pleasurable experience out of two years of workout, only immersed in the building. It was watching Ben Philippe interact with Selena Gomez for the first time. That was a truly special moment in my life.

[Host Hannah]

You'll have to videotape that next time.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

So glad there's no videotape of it. No, I think my favorite scene to write was probably, like, the early interactions between Mabel and Theo when they. She's still very angry at him, and she sort of has a lot of misconceptions about him, and he's sort of just showing that he is a good person. And there are little bits in there like him confirming that she did stab someone by being, like, so blunt. And she makes a joke about him like that he should be a trauma counselor. That was. That was a fun little moment.

[Host Steve]

I know that it's a hard question. It's like choosing between your children, but you both did a phenomenal job, so thank you. The next question comes from Nikki ds Did you. Oh, gosh. Did you write the finale for season one knowing that there would be a season two? Also, same question for the season two finale. And a little. We love Theo and Mabel. I'm telling you, there are a lot of people shipping those two right now.

[Host Hannah]

What's the word?

[Host Steve]

Shipping?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah.

[Ben Philippe]

What's that mean?

[Host Hannah]

Oh, I've never heard that.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Oh, my God. Mark Lee, Come on. That's. You sound like someone who didn't grow up writing fan Fiction.

[Host Steve]

It's basically like you're shipping them as a couple. So, like, you're. You're pairing them up. You're hoping that they're going to end up together. You're putting your eggs in that basket, so to speak. Did I do that? Okay. Ben?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah. I always look at relationship, you know, your Spike and Buffy. Buffy and Angel.

[Host Steve]

Yes.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

A very cool teenager.

[Host Steve]

Totally, totally more mainstream. Ross and Rachel, you know, whatever it might be.

[Host Hannah]

Has anyone combined their names? Like a Branchelina kind of thing? Like maybe O?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I think it would be evil.

[Ben Philippe]

Oh, that's good. Yeah.

[Host Hannah]

Which one?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Matteo.

[Host Hannah]

Matteo.

[Host Steve]

But curious about. About the. The. Sorry, I. Totally. That was a little detour there. But about the question of, do you write these story arcs with the finales in mind for the next season? And if you're in that situation now, knowing that you guys got greenlit for season three, which. Congratulations, by the way.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Thank you.

[Ben Philippe]

I guess the answer to that is not really. We're sort of always playing with the elements we set up. But I think there's. Especially this season, there was a lot of discussion about how all these elements we put in the air would play out. I think that is sort of some of the fun of it is we have to connect everything. It's like, as in the episode, this enormous puzzle and just sort of seeing how it all fits together ourselves before we move forward.

[Host Hannah]

Flipping the pieces, as it were.

[Ben Philippe]

Listen, I didn't want to be too cute about that, but I was.

[Host Hannah]

I'm here for that.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah. I think there's an element of it that sort of. You're writing the season to be self contained, but it's also like, it could be season 17. That's sort of the energy you have to bring into the story as you're breaking it. It's tricky.

[Host Steve]

You guys are doing a wonderful job, though. So wonderful. Speaking of flipping the pieces, broad presentation. 9. I apologize. I'm going to combine your two comments a little bit, but could you all talk a little bit about the. The metaphorical puzzle and where it came from and how that came to be?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I think it came from when we were talking about sort of Mabel's mind or her state of mind this season. And she's been taking it on the chin quite a bit. And there's a central sort of hole in her memory, which is what happened to Bunny. Like, Bunny fell into her arms. She was bleeding. And Mabel, I think part of Mabel knows that she is capable of stabbing someone. So we kind of wanted to find a way of visualizing it into literal puzzle piece. And that's sort of what ends up happening in this episode. And I think the metaphor of the puzzle allowed her to put it back together for the audience so that by the end, we have, like, the missing piece, that hole in her memory.

[Host Steve]

Amazing. I thought it was a really cool visual, for sure. And, like, just getting that backstory of Mabel. It was a really beautiful story arc. Which actually leads to another question which comes from Lodridge. They ask, do each of you have individual characters that are your babies for whom you and only you write the story slash dialogue for?

[Ben Philippe]

It's way more collaborative than that. Like, I feel like in any given episode, you're seeing something you suggested or, like, that flew out of your mouth, like, pop up. And then in your own episode, it's like a bunch of other people's stuff is sort of corralled in. It's just. It's so, like, the work is so expansive, and it goes through so many drafts that you don't really ever see yourself in exactly one character. But I think for Ben and I, obviously, you know, writing Theo has been an enormous. Just, like, a lot of fun and very interesting. And we definitely have been, you know, like, we like the idea of shipping Mabel and Theo. That's a great thing. We thought of that before and talked

[Stephen M. Irwin]

about it, I'm sure.

[Ben Philippe]

But, yeah, we have enjoyed writing Theo and seeing how his character has evolved.

[Host Hannah]

Yeah.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I think everyone in the room has characters that their voices sort of, like, respond a little bit more to that specific character. Like, they can be small characters. Like, I really like Ursula in the building. Other people really like Lester. But, yeah, for Mark Lee and I, it's. Theo's a good boy. I will say, I also really enjoy writing Teddy.

[Host Steve]

I love it. And great use of the word shipping.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Thank you.

[Ben Philippe]

I'm learning so much today.

[Host Hannah]

It's very catchy.

[Host Steve]

Well, I'm curious, too, because do you collaborate very much with James, the person that plays Theo, about how to incorporate some of those elements of being deaf into the story and making sure that they kind of stay true to the community?

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, absolutely. I think because neither of us could go to set for season one because of COVID he played a large role in sort of shaping how the character moved in the world. Right. And how his interactions went with this season. Because we were on set, Joey would often make suggestions or intimate details that would be difficult for a hearing person to think through. Right. Just those little nuggets. And so it was great having him there to just sort of, like, walk you through it. The one thing I remember is there's a line when Selena's trying to sign something and she signs like, thank you for stealing my fish. And I, like, spent hours and hours on, you know, like, looking at ASL so I could, like, get something that would be funny, but that would actually, like, be a misguided sign that she was doing. And it took her, like, what's that?

[Host Hannah]

Something that's close enough to it.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, that could actually be. And, like, I just, like, like, sweated trying to find out, like, one thing, but I think stealing my fish is funny, so.

[Host Steve]

No, it was so great when that happened. I was actually thinking about you all. I was like, how did they land on that. On that sign to make it close enough, but also funny.

[Ben Philippe]

No. Yeah, I was really difficult. But listen, I have been on YouTube. That's the thing I've looked at.

[Host Steve]

Yes. I mean, similar with glitter, like, being able to incorporate.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah.

[Host Steve]

And her being like. Well, that was actually really fun.

[Host Hannah]

Yeah, she liked that one.

[Host Steve]

You know, like, having those. Those moments to call out. It'd be very hard if you weren't well versed in ASL to be able to write and incorporate those moments. So kudos.

[Host KK]

I was just curious, what's the joke with. What's the steal my fish joke? Is that supposed to be similar to an actual sign word that she would say?

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, so not, like, dead on, but, like, she's trying to say, like, thank you for helping me steal the files

[Stephen M. Irwin]

or the files and fish.

[Ben Philippe]

But it's obviously something that doesn't end up in there. It just only matters to the insane writer who's, like, this has to, like, resemble something she might try to say to Theo in that moment, if that makes sense.

[Host KK]

Yeah, I get it now. Thank you.

[Host Hannah]

And Theo does kind of have that moment where he kind of just smiles and be like, yeah, okay, I get it. Close enough. You tried.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

And I think, like, James, Joey does such a great job of just adding so many layers to Theo. Like, when we were first writing him, he was, you know, technically the son of a grave robber. So there's something really sinister about that sort of character on paper, but Joey sort of adds a layer of softness to Theo that I think becomes really important to the character. He didn't really take full shape in my mind until we saw Theo on set and sort of his love for his father, just the way he's very unassuming, just moving through the world, but also kind of like, super confident. Like, he doesn't mind breaking into really any Building that all came from Joy

[Host Hannah]

and he's very calm and collected when he's doing things. Mabel is kind of freaking out a little bit and he just calmed it down and took care of business.

[Host Steve]

And speaking of breaking into buildings, we learned a new tactic of how Theo broke into a building with the key. That taught Mabel a little like, moment there.

[Host Hannah]

Like, right.

[Host Steve]

How. How do you all kind of incorporate those little moments as well? Because it's like, are you well versed in, you know,

[Host Hannah]

YouTube?

[Host Steve]

Yeah.

[Ben Philippe]

That actually happened like on set that day where everybody was like, okay, so this door is just going to be wide open. And you know, we were talking through it and just sort of like, well, I mean, Theo knows how to break into stuff. So then giving Mabel a line that like acknowledges like, oh, that's like something just quick. That acknowledges that she is used to breaking that. The theme of the show is just people breaking into every single door. So that, you know, stuff like that that just comes together in the moment was fun.

[Host KK]

Also, Joey, James Caverly is one of the guests on the podcast this week, which is kind of fun to have a non hearing person as a guest on a podcast, obviously with the help of an interpreter.

[Host Steve]

But we also.

[Host KK]

I don't know if it's up yet, but the episode is on YouTube also for non hearing folks to enjoy.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Host KK]

Kind of cool.

[Host Hannah]

Check it out.

[Host Steve]

Very cool. We'll try to post those links in the sub as well. That's a really awesome call out. Thank you for that. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested to both listen and see all of those, all of that interaction.

[Host Hannah]

Definitely.

[Host Steve]

Yeah. We have a bit of a quiet room today. If anyone does want to raise their hand to come on stage, don't be shy, come on through, hit that hand icon and we will bring you up.

[Ben Philippe]

And actually, actually I wanted to mention Ben was texting me beforehand. If anybody has a question about his personal life, he's happy to die.

[Host Hannah]

Tax advice.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

You're a very bad person.

[Host Hannah]

Legal issues.

[Host Steve]

This just took a turn. I'm sure there's probably a better Brazos quote that that could have been used for.

[Host Hannah]

It's going in a whole different direction.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah, that's the one I was blanking on. Brazos thing.

[Host Steve]

There it is.

[Host Hannah]

There's a Brazos line.

[Host Steve]

I know. I'm curious too about writing like, I mean, there's that Inception ness of it all. Writing a show within a show. Like, how do you keep continuity going with that because it is such a little subplot. In there. How. How does the Brazos TV show make its way in the writers room?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I think when we were trying to figure out what to do with Brazos, we were just looking at Variety that day, and there were, like, 17 reboots of old shows that were being announced. So I.

[Ben Philippe]

Because our characters are at such a

[Stephen M. Irwin]

remove from the entertainment world while also being a part of it, we can sort of just have one reference here or there and hopefully paint a picture in the audience's mind of like, oh, yeah, that's a reboot of a cop show from the, you know, 90s. I totally get what that is.

[Host Hannah]

There'll be a Brazos origin story.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Absolutely.

[Host Steve]

But truly. Yeah. Or I mean, I would watch the reboot of, you know, Charles being the

[Host Hannah]

uncle who wants soup really bad. Someone please give him soup.

[Host Steve]

Let me see if there are any more questions here. Okay. I mean, I will ask this, dazzling you, seven. Seven, But I don't know if we're gonna be able to answer. Answer it. Dazzling you77 asks, can we have a small hint? Please, please, please.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

A hint or what?

[Host Steve]

I think a hint to anything. They were not specific. I think that you can take that for what it is.

[Ben Philippe]

I mean, I worked so hard at my clue in the. As KK knows, my clue in the podcast.

[Host Steve]

Yeah.

[Host KK]

I think you can share those for, you know, folks who haven't heard the podcast yet. Probably a lot of them haven't. And we all know you're so good

[Ben Philippe]

at clues, Steve, Listen, I just like a clue that's very succinct. Yeah. Like I said, it's so hard to give clues, though, because when I hear people's clues on the podcast, I'm like, well, that either hit way too close or it's so general as to be like, I think the killer was a mammal.

[Host Hannah]

It's gotta be harder, too, by episode seven, because things are starting to wind down a little bit, so. Or ratchet up or ratchet up.

[Host Steve]

I'm very thankful that we're only on audio because if you have any other tells, you know, people aren't going to be analyzing your facial expressions in reaction to some of these questions.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, like pausing to see if our eyes dilate. Exactly.

[Host Hannah]

I can hear your heartbeat increase.

[Host Steve]

Yeah. Zooming in on your brow. All right, we'll move on from that. But Nikki Diaz asks, did someone from the. Some what? Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry, Nikki. I'm going to doctor this a little bit. Did any of the actors really surprise you with adding something new to their characters or something you didn't expect, but was kind of great.

[Ben Philippe]

I think Ben's previous answer, James Caverly, was just great. Especially, like, I think last year's episode was so focused on the plot outcome that there wasn't as much room for him to sort of maneuver within the confines of what his character had to do, because it was so focused on that moment with Zoe and this season, I just felt like he had so many playful moments, like, even when he's, like, yanking his teeth out with the fake pliers.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

That was great.

[Ben Philippe]

It's just like he has, like, such a broad range, which was really a pleasure to watch.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I'm going to go with overlooked underdog, a man named Martin Short. Oh, I've heard of him.

[Host Steve]

Who's that?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

He is just so good at making Oliver as amazing as Martin Short actually is, but his own distinct character. I think something that surprised me is how involved Martin is in sort of shaping the image of Oliver and sort of, like, what Oliver would do, what he wouldn't do. He's still extraordinarily funny. Like, there are some riffs and some deleted scenes that, oh, boy, he's just never off. But you see the difference between Martin Short and between Oliver Putnam and. Yeah, he knows that character so well, which is weird for me as a writer, because, oh, you assume that, you know, the writers know the characters best, but then the actors who've been living with them for, like, two and a half years, really just. They've imprinted on these characters in a really, really amazing way.

[Ben Philippe]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's. It's so interesting. I read Marty's book, and it's, like, going through his career, it's like, yeah, this is somebody who's basically a legend, but, you know, in some ways, like, never had that monstrous hit, you know, kind of like, in the way that Steve has. But, like, I feel like in this show, he is just, like a total flamethrower in every scene. You know, like, he's always so funny. Every little thing he does is weird. He's just so talented. And, you know, even when I know exactly the line that's coming, it can still crack me up, which is very impressive.

[Host Steve]

That's amazing.

[Host Hannah]

He definitely puts a lot of thought into every line he speaks and every movement he makes.

[Host Steve]

Hand gesture, eyebrow raise, for sure.

[Host KK]

Something we learned from one of the writers or somebody when we talked to Martin Short last year for the podcast was that, like, he came up with this backstory that Oliver is obsessed with Timothee Chalamet and Everything he does is like, what would Timothy. What would Timothy Chalamet do? What would Timothy Chalamet wear? And I just think that's so, so funny. And it makes me look at him and his choices in different light. It's so good.

[Host Hannah]

It all goes through that filter.

[Host Steve]

Yeah, it's incredible. But it's also. I mean, we're learning that Oliver is kind of a child of the Internet. Like him and Mabel's meme exchange.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah.

[Host Steve]

His love for Timothee Chalamet very much tracks with that, you know, Internet culture, because he's a huge fixture of the Internet.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I feel like he's definitely on Reddit. There's any of our characters, like, he's deep, deep on Reddit.

[Ben Philippe]

I love that.

[Host Steve]

And I remember Oliver. Oliver. Okay, I see.

[Host Hannah]

I'd love to know what his screen name would be. That would be fun for the writers to come up with sometime.

[Host Steve]

Lodridge, feel free to unmute and ask your question.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah.

[Host Steve]

Hi.

[Ben Philippe]

So I was just wondering, like, once

[Stephen M. Irwin]

you've determined who your killer is and you've got all that set up, how much of the writing goes into planting red herrings and making all the other characters look as suspicious as possible? That's a really good question. I promise, Markley and I aren't being, like, silent and coy just to be silent and coy. It's just like. It's the episode seven that, like, oof. We're so close to being able to talk about these things openly that we don't want Hulu to literally kill us. I think we like to. When it comes to red herrings, we like to create characters and clues that point to potentially real killers. Like, the idea is that if we were going to build a season around, oh, boy, Mabel did it. It's all been Mabel's doing, and she's setting up the entire story. I think we would want that to track. So the red herrings. Herrings end up feeling real. Does that make sense for you, Mark Lee?

[Host Hannah]

Yeah.

[Ben Philippe]

I mean, I think there's this process in every mystery where, you know, the detective, quote unquote, in whatever capacity they are, is cycling through the characters, and the audience is, you know, along for the ride of that. So the audience is also sort of judging and dismissing and weighing and dismissing. And then somebody catches your eye and you're like, okay, I think it's this person. I have a thread with my friends back home in Ohio, and they're, like, constantly guessing about who did it. And I find that so interesting because, like, the theories you come up with and the ways in which, like, each individual sees the mystery is so interesting to me. But yeah, I, you know, it's, it's. Every mystery is like sort of a, a weird balance you're trying to strike because it all should lock in. It should all make sense when the final person's revealed. And hopefully in a way that's satisfying to everything that's come before it.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

It's also a fun challenge, I would say, because our audience is so invested in the show. Like, once you have viewers who will take screenshots and zoom, you're not dealing with just like throwing sitcom gags at the wall anymore. So you have to sort of be aware that you're writing for very smart people. Wow.

[Ben Philippe]

What a suck up, man.

[Host Hannah]

Come on.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I'm sorry. Welcome to Reddit. Is this new for you? That's what we do up here.

[Host Steve]

I know.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

And shipping.

[Host Steve]

I think we're smart. No. Thank you. And thank you, Lord Ridge, for your wonderful question. Well, with that said, the doors always open. Come back anytime. We would love to have you back after episode 10 airs and you can air all of your dirty laundry unfiltered. Unfiltered. So thank you so much for coming by. Thank you, KK Straw Hut Hannah, as always, for letting us do this. And it's so much fun. We look forward to it every week.

[Host Hannah]

Thank you.

[Ben Philippe]

Thank you.

[Host Steve]

Yeah.

[Host KK]

And listen to this week's episode of the podcast. To Steve and Ben. Plus, we also have Divine Joy Randolph who plays Detective Williams, and James Caverly, who plays Theo. So it's a really, really good episode. So check it out and you can watch it on YouTube either now or very, very soon.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

And just to spread your joy around, episode eight is one of my favorite things ever. So look forward to that one. I love that episode.

[Host Steve]

Oh, my gosh.

[Host Hannah]

So that'll be picking up where the blackout happens at the end of episode seven then, right?

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Yeah, it's a blackout episode.

[Host Hannah]

Ah, okay.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

I don't know. I hope that's not a spoiler and I'm not fired, but we'll see. But yeah, it's Madeline George. She's a genius. I love her so much.

[Host Hannah]

We'll have to keep watching.

[Host Steve]

Well, that, that is for sure going to be happening, but man, now it feels like it's going to be a really long almost week. We're still on the. The majority of the week here, but thank you so much again, until next time. We'll be back hopefully next week. Everyone have a great rest of your day and we will talk soon.

[Host Hannah]

Bye. Thank you.

[Stephen M. Irwin]

Bye.

[Host Steve]

Bye. Than.