S2 E7: Flipping the Pieces

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

Episode: S2 E7 – Flipping the Pieces
Host: Elizabeth Keener (with appearances by KK Yay)
Guests: Writers Stephen Markley & Ben Philippe, Showrunner John Hoffman, Actors Da'Vine Joy Randolph (Detective Williams) & James Caverly (Theo Demas)
Date: August 3, 2022

---

Overview:

This episode dives into Season 2, Episode 7 ("Flipping the Pieces") of Only Murders in the Building, exploring Mabel’s fractured memory, her father’s influence, and thematic depth through interviews with the writers, showrunner, and cast. The podcast brings behind-the-scenes insight into character development, the logistics of creating episodes, and the interplay between trauma, memory, and trust. Notable on-set stories, writing challenges, and personal anecdotes from the actors enrich the discussion.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Episode Recap and Thematic Framing

• Elizabeth Keener recaps the plot: Mabel wakes up in Theo’s apartment, struggles with memory loss, revisits childhood trauma, and teams with Theo to confront "Glitter Guy" at Coney Island (01:00–03:20).
• The episode flashes back to Mabel’s puzzle days with her father—introducing the motif "Flipping the Pieces" as both a literal and emotional metaphor for processing trauma.

“I didn't know how to cope with him dying, so I didn't. Instead, I flipped the pieces over in my mind until I couldn't see the image anymore, just like he'd shown me. That was when I lost my first memory.”
—Mabel’s narration (08:12)

---

2. Writers' Room Perspective: Stakes, Structure, and Memory

• Stephen Markley and Ben Philippe reveal how Season 2’s stakes are higher, with the main trio being framed (04:08–04:38).
• The narrative structure follows Mabel’s nonlinear recollection, paralleling her puzzle assembly skill set—her “superpower” (05:09–06:00).

“You’re not going to get all the pieces of this person’s life in a linear fashion.”
—Stephen Markley (05:09)

• John Hoffman (Showrunner) discusses how each main character’s “skill” frames their coping mechanisms, especially relating to trauma and memory. Mabel uses puzzling to focus, sometimes avoiding deeper emotional truths (06:11–07:57).

“You have to flip those pieces over and look at the full picture sometimes and… put this puzzle thing together that I’m terrified to look at and know the truth.”
—John Hoffman (06:30)

---

3. Deep Dive on Mabel’s Trauma and Development

• Ben Philippe and Stephen Markley see Ep 7 as a turning point for Mabel—processing her father’s death as a key to unlocking the memory of Bunny’s stabbing (08:54–10:59).
• Mabel’s journey is reframed as moving towards agency and honesty, no longer shrouded by unreliable memory or surrounding betrayals.

“Being able to sort of work through her memories, work through her trauma, she’s able to come out of it for the last third of the season with a new fortitude, a new verve to just solve this dang case...”
—Stephen Markley (10:59)

• The writers acknowledge the “misery-pile-on” as necessary for character growth, aligning with classic story arcs (11:42).

---

4. Mabel and Theo: Dynamics, Communication, and Playfulness

• Ep 7 reunites Mabel and Theo, bringing together two characters tied by Zoe’s tragic death but with minimal prior direct interaction (14:14–15:37).
• James Caverly (Theo) explains the challenges and realism integrated into their communication—highlighting the difficulty of lip reading and intentional inclusion of these barriers (18:57–19:56).

“With lip reading, you’re only picking up a third of what’s being said … you’re filling in the rest yourself.”
—James Caverly (19:15)

• The show avoids a generic "ASL lesson" episode by making miscommunication genuine and sometimes humorous, showing two people “slightly off center on the same page” (16:31–17:52).

• Episode brings out Theo’s playfulness (see: Whac-A-Mole scene and “like a creep” note) for the first time, a contrast to his more traumatized portrayal in Season 1 (20:09–20:50).

---

5. Behind the Scenes: Coney Island & On-Set Collaboration

• Coney Island’s setting chosen for its visual distinctiveness and metaphorical eeriness—reminiscent of closed-off, transitional spaces for both characters (22:47–24:43).
• James Caverly and Stephen Markley recount drunken and peculiar personal experiences at Coney Island, paralleling Theo’s rare visits (23:28–24:28).
• Description of on-set interpreter logistics for deaf actors—interpretation adapts to complex shoot requirements (25:03).

---

6. Detective Williams’ Return & The Babysitting Subplot

• Da'Vine Joy Randolph (Detective Williams) on stepping back into the show post-maternity leave—her New Yorker attitude prevents her from staying away from the case (27:43–28:18).
• She frames Williams’ relationship with the trio as begrudging respect and professional necessity; she benefits from their “civilian intel” but withholds true acknowledgment for fear of emboldening them (28:30–30:31).

“She likes them, but she just won’t tell them that she likes them. Sadly enough, I think they’re better at the job than my co-workers.”
—Da'Vine Joy Randolph (28:38)

• The baby-gas subplot leads to an on-set “Chorus Line” musical number—conceived via late-night Google search by the writers and enhanced by Martin Short and Da'Vine’s Broadway chops (32:14–33:54).

---

7. Theo’s Growth and Future Prospects

• Theo’s arc is about taking steps toward identity outside his father’s criminal shadow, influenced by Mabel’s openness in confronting her own trauma (34:42–35:44).
• James Caverly reflects on Theo’s crisis of identity as he distances from the “assistant/criminal” identity and contemplates reconciliation with his father (35:48–37:28).

“He’s trying to remove himself from the identity of murderer, of crime … in episode seven, you see the full character arc, if you will.”
—James Caverly (36:48)

---

8. Clues, Easter Eggs, and Meta Commentary

• Season 3 speculation heavily implied to focus on Oliver’s backstory (38:10).
• Writers offer intentionally cryptic clues:
  • “The truth is all in how you frame it.” (39:04; a reference to theming and perhaps to a literal frame in the story)
  • A tongue-in-cheek reference to “Goldbach’s Conjecture” in number theory, jokingly said to point to the killer (39:24).

“The truth is all in how you frame it, sort of sums up the season.”
—Ben Philippe (39:04)

---

9. Whodunit Summit: Fan Theories and Host Guesses

• Keener suspects Cinda Canning, motivated by her ruthlessness and manipulation (40:53).
• KK Yay leans towards Alice, linking her art background and presence in Coney Island (41:26).
• Listeners submit their own complex theories, including the likelihood of Detective Kreps’ involvement and dismissing Poppy due to timeline discrepancies (43:05–45:50).

“She’ll do anything to leave everyone in her wake... I think that it’s Cinda because she just is somebody who would do that.”
—Elizabeth Keener (40:53)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On trauma and puzzles:
  “You have to flip those pieces over and look at the full picture sometimes … the puzzle itself is the brain side of her that's able to sort of like focus on the thing that she's able to do.” —John Hoffman (06:30)

• On writing nonlinear backstories:
  “You're not going to get all the pieces of this person's life in a linear fashion.” —Stephen Markley (05:09)

• On Theo’s language barriers:
  “With lip reading, you’re only picking up a third of what’s being said … you’re filling in the rest yourself.” —James Caverly (19:15)

• On Detective Williams and the trio:
  “She likes them, but she just won’t tell them that she likes them... Sadly enough, I think they’re better at the job than my co-workers.” —Da'Vine Joy Randolph (28:38)

• On this season’s guiding clue:
  “The truth is all in how you frame it.” —Ben Philippe (39:04)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:01–03:20 – Episode plot recap & introduction of key motifs
• 05:09 – Writers on nonlinear storytelling/puzzle metaphor
• 06:11 – John Hoffman discusses character "superpowers" and memory
• 08:12 – Mabel’s narration on flipping puzzle pieces/memory loss
• 10:59 – Shifting Mabel’s character into agency
• 14:25–15:37 – Writers on bringing Mabel & Theo together
• 18:57–19:56 – James Caverly on lip reading realism
• 27:43–28:38 – Detective Williams’ motives for helping the trio
• 32:14–33:54 – The “Chorus Line” baby-gas scene
• 34:42–36:48 – Theo’s identity, growth, and reconciliation
• 39:04–39:24 – Writers’ clues for the season
• 40:50–42:35 – Whodunit summit with theories on Cinda and Alice
• 43:05–45:50 – Fan mail and extended speculation

---

Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is lively, witty, and deeply affectionate for the characters and the world of the Arconia. There are playful jabs between writers, sincere reflections from the cast, and a recurring sense of humility and enthusiasm around the creative process—showing genuine camaraderie both onscreen and off.

---

Conclusion

“Flipping the Pieces” is a densely layered episode focusing on how memory and trauma shape perception, agency, and connection—mirrored in both Mabel’s personal journey and Theo’s interactions. The podcast episode offers fans not just clever behind-the-scenes stories but thoughtful analyses and endearing banter. The team teases future developments, welcomes theories, and reinforces the notion that in mysteries (and life), the truth truly depends on how you put the puzzle together.

---

Transcript

[Stephen Markley]

Straw Hut Media Gut Milk has expanded its line.

[Ben Philippe]

Essentially it's probably like the hyper caffeinated version, right? It's like the hyper caffeinated like drinking three monsters at once milk beverage product

[Stephen Markley]

but also calorie conscious because it's only zero calories.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's right.

[Stephen Markley]

That's a good point. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Who are we? We're a couple of true crime aficionados. Kind of like Charles Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters in the HUL original show. Only murders in the building now in season two. And we're here making a podcast about a show where the characters make their own podcast about a murder. I'm your host, Elizabeth Keener. It's just me today, but don't worry, you'll still hear KK Yay in our interviews and at the end for the whodunit summit. Why are we here? To solve a murder and to try to figure out who the killer is before all is revealed in the season finale. We we may not be in the Arconia ourselves, but we'll get some inside information from members of the cast and crew and clues to help us piece it all together. Today we'll be talking to the writers of episode seven, Steven Markley and Ben Philippe, plus Divine Joy Randolph who plays Detective Williams, and James Caverly who plays Theo Demas. We'll hear more from showrunner and co creator John Hoffman. We'll discover what Stephen Markley and James Caverly have in common in relation to Coney island, the joys of the chorus line fart technique and two very interesting clues. As of now, we've seen the first seven episodes, so listeners beware. We're going to give a quick recap. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button. Stream episode 7 now and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you. Episode 7. Mabel wakes up in Theo's apartment with no memory of stabbing Glitter Guy on the subway. Theo shows her the video and tells her how she ended up with him. We also flashback to her childhood and her relationship with her father. They did a lot of puzzles together.

[Mark Lee]

Every Sunday we'd sit around in our pajamas and do a puzzle together.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mabel's bag was stolen with the matchbook inside. And Theo saw Glitter Guy drop a security badge for Coney Island. So they decide to go to Coney island to try to figure out who she stabbed and get the evidence back. Detective Williams shows up at Charles apartment. She brought her new baby.

[Ben Philippe]

Aren't you supposed to be in Denver?

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Are you aware of her violent past?

[Kevin Lan]

Because we heard you were In Denver,

[Elizabeth Keener]

on maternity leave, Charles and Oliver decide to hand over the bloody knife, hoping that it will prove Mabel's innocence. In Coney Island, Mabel and Theo find the staff files and take them. Hoping Glitter Guy's identity is inside. They do some bonding. Then Mabel runs into Glitter Guy in the locker room. She manages to escape and steals Glitter Guy's backpack. It has a weird chicken head on it. We learn that Maple's dad died of stomach cancer when she was 7, and it's the first time she lost a memory.

[Mark Lee]

I have to flip the pieces now.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All of them. The trio meets up at the Pickle Diner. In the backpack, Mabel found a photo of Charles and Lucy. Charles calls Lucy, and she's at his apartment. The power goes out. It's a blackout, and Lucy might be in danger.

[Ben Philippe]

Lucy. Lucy.

[Mark Lee]

Maybe the call dropped.

[Kevin Lan]

Oh, I know this. We've got a blackout, people.

[KK Yay]

So, guys, how has this season been different from last season? And has anything surprised you so far this season?

[Elizabeth Keener]

No.

[Ben Philippe]

I think for a large part, it was the same amount of fun and chaos and delight and, you know, we just juggle a lot of balls and hope we catch them all. I think that's kind of the writer's credo in Only Immersion.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The villain, that's Stephen Markley. He co wrote this episode with Ben Philippe. Here's Ben.

[Stephen Markley]

I think one big difference for us this season is that because the trio is being framed for the murder, the stakes are so much higher. And I think when we were writing the end of season one, it was all about, like, oh, this would be a really cool moment to end on. It's the death of Bunny, and our gang are on the roof. And there are so many little threads that we're setting out there. And this season, it was the job of, oh, crap, we have to answer those questions. And that sort of. We hadn't planned that far.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mabel narrates the opening of this episode. We learn more about her relationship with her father and about the puzzles they did together.

[Stephen Markley]

How long do you think it'll take us this time?

[James Caverly]

A thousand years?

[Ben Philippe]

Well, your mom comes to get you

[John Hoffman]

at three, so we're gonna have to

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

do better than that.

[Mark Lee]

I'm kidding.

[James Caverly]

This one's easy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah?

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Well, what if we do without the box?

[Stephen Markley]

No pictures to help us.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Still easy.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

What if we do it upside down?

[John Hoffman]

Then just the shapes. You think you can do it?

[Stephen Markley]

I have an uncle who loves elaborate puzzles, but he doesn't really care about the image. He finds the actual visual distracting, so he just flips everything Backwards and he just focuses on putting like the shapes together. And then afterwards he just turns it around so he finally sees the picture clearly in the end. Which that's sort of what ended up being our approach to Mabel. Like you're not going to get all the pieces of this person's life in a linear fashion. So you know you're going to get Oscar and then you're going to get Zoe and her dad. And I believe she has an aunt somewhere, who knows, but it's all going to happen out of sync and that's kind of feels natural.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And the puzzles she did with her dad, they're kind of her superpower when it comes to her role among our trio. Oliver has his ability to read people and know when they're being sincere. Charles has his years of being a TV detective.

[John Hoffman]

They all do have skills that both have helped them frame their lives in certain ways.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's showrunner and co creator John Hoffman.

[John Hoffman]

Oliver has this skill he knows and trusts in that has framed his understanding of who he is in the world and what his life looks like. And then it gets upended potentially for him. And it's like, wait a minute, my whole world has to get shaken up here. And in episode seven, Mabel certainly has a skill with puzzling things together and creating the picture. And she's proud of that. But it also holds what is she doing when she's puzzling? What is she not looking at and what can't she look at and what's being blocked out for her. And that's what we're exploring in episode seven. A young woman with her history has had to navigate that in a way that is self protective. And you have to flip those pieces over and look at the full picture sometimes and please let my brain open up in some way that allows me to put this puzzle thing together that I'm terrified to look at and know the truth. And the emotional part of her is scared and shut down because she's in self protection mode. And the puzzle itself is the brain side of her that's able to sort of like focus on the thing that she's able to do. So that's what we're sort of exploring in that episode in Round Mabel. And Charles has a whole history that he's exploring through season two with his father with the mysteries around that and him and how that relates to how he sees himself in the world and how he's felt about himself. And we may be heading towards something that gives him new reframing opportunity coming up.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So there's more to learn about Charles this season. I wonder what he's hinting at there. Maybe his superpower isn't being a fake detective. We may not know everything about Charles, but. But after this episode, we know a lot more about Mabel, and we learn the origin of her problems with memory.

[Mark Lee]

They said he had to move out for work. Six months later, he was dead. Stomach cancer. I knew something wasn't right, but I was happy to play along. I didn't know how to cope with him dying, so I didn't. Instead, I flipped the pieces over in my mind until I couldn't see the image anymore, just like he'd shown me. That was when I lost my first memory.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's writers Stephen Markley and Ben Philippe.

[Ben Philippe]

Again, I think we envisioned it as Mabel looking back to this very impressionable moment when she was super young. And that original person she lost that hurt so, so badly. By unpacking that, by looking right at it and by being with it, allows her to clear the fog of her memory.

[KK Yay]

Right.

[Ben Philippe]

Like, allows her to gain insight that she had blocked out previously.

[Stephen Markley]

Yeah, it did a few things for us in that by filling the memory of her father, that sort of first thing she blocked out due to the pain of losing him, she's able to sort of confront the memory of Bunny's actual stabbing. It was always a question of, is Mabel capable of doing this? And I think we know, given that she's our lead character, that she probably didn't stab Bunny. That's probably not going to be the reveal of the season, but we've established her as a character who is capable of violence, who is holding something back. And for her to sort of confront that moment alone, away from Charles and Oliver, felt right. And also, I think after the whole Alice journey last episode, there's something about Mabel that comes through here in that she really values the truth, like honesty and people being upfront. And I think that's what sort of instructs her need to podcast. She values people not lying to her and not to psychoanalyze a fictional character. We wrote in a room full of people. But I think that goes back to her trauma with her dad, that people lied to her, and she was robbed of the clarity of that moment all the way back in her childhood.

[Ben Philippe]

This episode was kind of the fulcrum of that exploration of memory.

[KK Yay]

It's.

[Ben Philippe]

Mabel's had these blockages about that incident and how those blockages sort of inform or are informed by what else has gone on in her life.

[Stephen Markley]

Right.

[Ben Philippe]

We're constantly rediscovering information and viewing these events by, you know, through different lenses and you're getting different pieces of this mystery as these last few episodes begin to roll out.

[Stephen Markley]

And I think it lets Mabel move towards. Because it's been a rough season for Mabel. We're aware that that young woman has a lot of trauma and a lot of like cadavers that she's dragging behind her. But I think being able to sort of work through her memories, work through her trauma, she's able to come out of it for the last third of the season with a new fortitude, a new verve to just solve this dang case, like uncover who has been playing with them for so long. And we really wanted to give her that energy moving forward that it's not just going to be a full season of Mabel just like sad and repressing memories and getting betrayed by people in her immediate surrounding. We wanted to create a clear sort of launching point for her for this.

[Ben Philippe]

You have to pile on the misery to the character for, you know, as long as you can and then, you know, give them something to fight against.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, like in life. It's in life. Yeah.

[Stephen Markley]

What you aim for is a puke on the subway that people film and where somebody ends up bleeding.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's John Hoffman on Mabel's bad luck.

[John Hoffman]

It's interesting. You know, I think that's the way of the world sometimes you have to put yourself out there and trust. And sometimes people make terrible choices and you do sometimes, but sometimes other people do as well. And you know, people's intentions get very messed up. I think in early stages in relationships and what some would, some would consider trying to be helpful may not be. And it actually could be even a darker thing than that. And that's where Mabel keeps finding herself and then. But I think she has to genuinely acknowledge like where she is at as well. And. And that's what happens off of episode six, into episode seven. She's not feeling very good about her choices. So she has to have a very deep, self reflective episode and moment and, and the person who facilitates that for her is one of the people she would not want to be with in her mind before he was there on a train with her. But Theo being a very unexpected person for her and, and finding some, you know, beginnings of a new reframed relationship with him as well out of that when she needed someone who could give her what he gives her in that episode. So I think all of that is to point to a character that, yes, needs to cut a break, get Cut a break. So it's like, I want her to be happy. I want her to have a relationship. And she may still yet by the end of this season. There's a lot that's yet to be done and a lot to be uncovered in a couple of episodes.

[Mark Lee]

Is this his? I need to get to Coney island now. Not to stab him again, Although I'm leaving my options open. He has. And if he works there, they have to have some kind of record or photos. No, no, no. I'm not letting you help me. You killed Zoe, and you let Oscar sit in jail for 10 years.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You might remember we talked to Ben and Steve last season for their episode, also number seven, and also featuring Theo heavily. So we were wondering, was that a coincidence or was it intentional?

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

I think we.

[Ben Philippe]

We were kind of angling to get Theo back in in some manner. And at some point, I think it was Ben's idea. You know, let's put Mabel and Theo together for an episode. Let's get them, you know, interacting. These two characters who have so profoundly affected each other's lives.

[Stephen Markley]

Yeah. One of the great joys of the Arconia in this world is that there are so many side characters that you could buy yourself spending more time with. And it's always that balancing act of, you know, do we introduce someone new from that world, like one of the dozens and dozens of residents we haven't seen, or are we going to spend more time with someone we've seen before? And in Theo's case, like Mark Lee says, it felt like his story wasn't really over, especially since he and Mabel share so much history. They hadn't really spent a lot of one on one time. And this season felt like a fun chance to just explore that a little bit.

[KK Yay]

And they kind of grew up together, obviously.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Philippe]

And they're just bound by this. This really impactful moment in their lives with Zoe's death in the first season. But we never actually see them interact. And so I think getting them on screen together and watching those two actors sort of play off each other was a real, real joy of writing it and enjoyed the episode.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll learn how Theo's character has changed since season one. And we welcome back actor James Caverly, with the help of an interpreter to hear how James and Selena bonded on set.

[Mark Lee]

Was it glitter guy? The person on the train, Glitter guy. Did he have glitter on him? Is this. Is that ASL for glitter? That was kind of fun in Season

[KK Yay]

one, Theo's lip reading is almost like a superpower. And in this season, Theo and Mabel are communicating in a more realistic way where they're not quite understanding each other. Can you tell us a bit about their communication and what informed that writing process between those two?

[Ben Philippe]

That was quite a challenge because we have a character who knows basically no ASL and figuring out how they were going to be in conversation about this very important thing that Mabel has to go do. And I think we spent a lot of time spitballing about little moments or how to make it funny or how to get them on the same page and then slightly off center on the same page. I think that was definitely a challenge of the episode.

[Stephen Markley]

Yeah, season one was a little immersive because you're suddenly in Theo's perspective. And Theo doesn't really have to communicate with anyone that doesn't know asl. It's him, it's his. D had even Zoe in a flashback, she knew asl. And for the two of them, Theo and Mabel, this season, I think Mark Lee and I kind of treated it as a language barrier. Like in New York City, you meet so many people from different backgrounds who speak a completely different language from you. And Theo and Mabel are stuck in the situation where they have to communicate and they speak different languages. And I think sort of working with James, we're also mindful of not making it too much of a. The person, the deaf person is teaching ASL to the person who's capable of hearing. Like, we didn't want that to become the entirety of the dynamic. So that led to a few great moments where Mabel doesn't know what Theo's saying, and he doesn't always feel like explaining everything to her either, which I kind of like about him.

[Ben Philippe]

Ben and I spent a lot of time talking about this key moment when each of the characters is sort of confessing something to the other, but they actually don't. It's just this moment where they can unburden themselves without the fear of actually the other person hearing it. And I think that was one of the cruxes of the. Of the episode that we were, like, constantly writing around, trying to figure out and trying to make work. And I think it came off really nicely.

[Mark Lee]

That's what's been scaring me, something that I would do. I just don't know if I did do it. Maybe it's better that way.

[Elizabeth Keener]

In the beginning of the episode, Theo hands Mabel a card that says he can lip read but only gets a

[James Caverly]

third of what's Said that was probably from the first conversation we had back in season one. I told the writers that generally lip reading is very hard.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is James Caverly, the actor who plays Theo. We spoke to him with the help of Monique Sarpi, one of two on set, ASL interpreters.

[James Caverly]

And a lot of the times with lip reading, it's a guessing game because you're only picking up a third of what's being said. And so it's. It's. It. You're filling in the blanks. You're filling in the rest yourself as someone who's trying to understand what's being said and just having to continue to ask someone to repeat what they're saying. And so with the writers having that information in mind, they did bring that into season two and noted it in the script. And so it's like, okay, you did pay attention. You did listen to me. Thank you.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So we noticed a little Easter egg. When Theo is explaining what happened on the train, he writes, you were in shock, so I took you to my place like a creep. Curious. Who wrote that?

[Stephen Markley]

I think there were a lot of, like, little scene directions to make Theo funny. The idea is that he was sort of, like, rooted in so much trauma in season one that we really didn't get a good sense of his personality. And this season, also, because James is such a great actor, like, you get to see little bits of him being a little whimsy, a bit of a clown, and that was probably one of them.

[Ben Philippe]

Or like, when he opens the glass thing in the game, like, he just pushes it open. It's like, that was actually James's idea on set, and it works really well in sort of giving Theo this other dimension, a little bit of playfulness.

[Elizabeth Keener]

James agreed. He said that this episode was special because he got to share it.

[James Caverly]

Season one was, you know, a whole episode focused from Theo's perspective and point of view. And that came with a little bit of a wait. And so now season two, with having Selena with me, it's feels less of this weight. We share that responsibility together. And look, working with Selena, she's such a sweetheart. She's an angel. I love her so much. We were able to connect in a weird way because we know what it's like to be special in our own journeys in that. Right. And I think that we were able to really connect very well because we do have that shared experience together. Her being famous at a young age and with my journey as a deaf person, there are some parallels in being able to understand what it feels like as an outsider sometimes. And so we connected through that, I believe. And working on Coney Island, I was kind of hoping to ride a roller coaster with her, but nothing was open that early. Yeah, I think it was early spring.

[Mark Lee]

Okay, so you've never been to Coney island, but have you ever played whack a Mole?

[James Caverly]

I mean, I did that one specific part so many times over, like, over and over to the point where my arm was sore the next day with doing that part. It's like, gosh, I gotta stretch this thing out. And I got more aggressive and angrier than the last shot and. And it was a lot. I think at one point, you know, the mallet slipped out of my hand and it was flying all around with the string. It was like, whoa, your right bicep

[Elizabeth Keener]

is bigger than your left now.

[James Caverly]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Markley]

We love the arconia so much. We love those apartments and that building. But sometimes, since the show is set in New York, we kind of want to make the most of it by sending our characters, like, you know, on locations that aren't just the upper west side. And John Hoffman has, like, a connection to Coney Island. And it felt like in the room, I think, that they were having conversations about which one of us had been to Coney island and hadn't been. And has Theo ever been to Coney Island? Would Mabel have gone there? And it just ultimately felt like the right place to send these two characters who are kind of stunted about.

[Ben Philippe]

Ben and I were trying to, like, think of, like, what's around Coney island, like, what's going to. What can they do?

[Stephen Markley]

What's.

[Ben Philippe]

What's there? And that's how you end up with, like, the whack a Mole moment and the, you know, the claw machine and all that stuff. I have been to Coney Island. I was so drunk at the time, though, that I kind of don't remember

[Elizabeth Keener]

much, of course, so. Sure, Steve.

[Stephen Markley]

But I think it's also, like, the visuals of it. Like, it's such a cool setting. When you first Marc was on set for the episode a lot more than me. But just when you see like a closed off amusement park in the middle of the day, everything about that felt a little disconnected. Like it's not quite, you know, a Ferris wheel filled with people laughing and sharing ice cream cones. It's closed off for the season. They're in there looking for clues. So it has both that aspect of being yay amusement park, but also a little sinister and off kilter, which were quintessential spooky.

[Ben Philippe]

You Know, it checked a lot of boxes, and we could film there relatively easily, so.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And oddly enough, James last visit to Coney island was a lot like Steve's.

[James Caverly]

That was actually my second time going to Coney island in all my time. My first time was summer of 2018, I believe. I went to Coney island and, you know, you imagine the roller coasters and all the things, but then I had one too many drinks, and so now it's like, no, I'm just going to enjoy walking the boardwalk and, you know, doing my thing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

How does the process work for you on set, working with Candace and Monique? There are so many people, and I'm sure you're getting pulled in multiple directions. How does that work for you?

[James Caverly]

Well, I'm fortunate to have an agent who really exposes cast and crew and explains how to use a sign language interpreter while on set. But oftentimes what a set shoot looks like, we'll meet with the director and the crew members and talk about the plan and the strategy. And then we'll kick out the interpreters from the room. Everybody's just kicked out. We shoot, and then when they call cut, the interpreters make a mad dash to the room to start back interpreting. So our interpreters are really placed in some really odd locations in the corner behind the camera, sitting on the floor, under desks, you know, just really strange locations.

[Elizabeth Keener]

While Mabel and Theo are tracking down glitter guy at Coney Island, Charles and Oliver are back at the Arconia with Detective Williams.

[Ben Philippe]

While Mabel and Theo are out on this journey, you have to put Steve Martin and Martin short on ice for the episode almost. You have to, like, you're keeping them contained. But if you have to keep two performers contained, two better performers than those two, and it's like those two are so funny and charming. It's like I could watch them argue over just about anything on the planet. Luckily, you have a plot point you need to take care of. So getting Williams the knife was a good way to let them roll the season.

[Stephen Markley]

Sort of hits a point at which they kind of have to consider what Mabel needs to them. Especially since we're doing the storyline with Mabel and her father. Like, these two men sort of have to wonder, this isn't our daughter. This is our friend. Question mark. Although she can be very rude, it's our neighbor, and she might have stabbed someone. So I think we wanted to sort of like, have them in a position to just have that conversation, even though it's happening in the bathroom with a stained murder weapon between them, to just Sort of consider. How in are they.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, Ben, I think you brought this point up when we were doing the episode. Like, how long have they actually known each other? Other, the three of them. this point, it's like the real time of it is only, you know, a matter of a few weeks or a month or something. I forget what the exact numbers are.

[Stephen Markley]

I. I don't remember. I'm sure the Reddit people know down to the number of minutes down.

[Ben Philippe]

Down to the nanoseconds, but it hasn't been like. No, we're just joking. We love you Reddit people. We love you.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah, Reddit. Help us out with the timeline. Have any of you figured that out? Let us know. And speaking of timing, Detective Williams wife had the baby. She was on leave, but the case

[Kevin Lan]

pulled her back because we heard you were in Denver. A maternity leave?

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

God damn it. Would y' all focus? Yes, I was on a trip as of last night, and I cut the shit short because there's something that's been bothering me. It's been keeping me up at night.

[Kevin Lan]

Let me guess, it was your baby.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

No, it was you, dipshit. I can't stop thinking about this damn case and how you clearly know things that you're not sharing. I feel like I took this maternity leave, I didn't even need it. And then I find out very pertinent information. I gotta go seek it out.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is da' Vine Joy Randolph. She plays Detective Williams.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Can you imagine me in Denver? It's very problematic. I'm itching. I'm a New Yorker, born and bred. I'm in Denver. No.

[KK Yay]

Why do you think Detective Williams wants to help that trio? Because she seems like she doesn't like them.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

She likes them, but she just won't tell them that she likes them. She'll never see it. But, like. Well, I feel like we. I feel like we kind of gave it to them. When she was like, you know, I'll look out for your kid, you know? You know, that kind of thing. I thought I was. Because I was like, john, do we want to say all of that? And he was like, no, we could give him a little crumb. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. But no, I think sadly enough, I think they're better at the job than my co workers. So in a way, I think I truly, truly love my job. And so I think, as unorthodox as it is, I think I've come to the fact of realizing I can't stop it. You know what I mean? They're Gonna keep going. So it's kind of like, join them. But I don't think I will ever actually tell them that because I think they would run wild with it. So I kind of entertain them. But for sure, any pertinent information, I'm taking it. You know what I mean? And I think I'm very tactful and. And specific as to what I do say to them. If I say to them, then it's like, I know it's gonna be on the 9 o' clock news in a couple hours, you know what I mean? Nothing where I can actually, like, get caught with. But definitely they're helping me for sure. And I think there's a certain level as a cop and a detective, certain areas and people you're not gonna be able to get to just because of the badge. And that freaks people out. And people are guarded. So in a way, having that civilian intel is extremely, extremely helpful. I'm just never gonna tell.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And it's helpful for our trio to have someone on the police to turn to for guidance. They had wanted to share the matchbook with Detective Williams, so it makes sense that they would hand over the bloody knife.

[Ben Philippe]

This is so crazy. Look what we just found behind the toilet.

[Kevin Lan]

In the toilet.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Okay, I love cringe comedy, but this is painful to watch. The knife.

[Kevin Lan]

Oh, is it?

[Mark Lee]

I get it.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

You don't know where this came from. I got you.

[Kevin Lan]

Whatever it is, you'll find it doesn't have Mabel's prints on it. We hope my prints are on the knife, but that's just because it belongs to me and was stolen from my apartment. Because we're being framed. You must see that kind of thing all the time.

[Ben Philippe]

The prints of my teenage, somewhat stepdaughter, Lucy are on it too, although she is uninvolved.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Okay, okay. They love it. They're literally like, what else can I do? Can I jump out of a window? What about this? What if I cat pants while I do it? Is that funny? Like, so I know they really love and enjoy it just being even more hands on. And those two. My God, it really is.

[Stephen Markley]

It's magic.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

It's magic.

[Kevin Lan]

My son Will used to get a tummy ache after feeding, you know, gas bubbles. Are you familiar with A Chorus Line?

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Excuse me?

[Kevin Lan]

Here, let me just.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Trust me on this.

[Kevin Lan]

We put this down, this is the stage, and here, give them to me.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

What?

[Kevin Lan]

Just trust me. Trust me.

[Stephen Markley]

Oh, what I'm doing.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Lan]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[John Hoffman]

Look at this.

[Kevin Lan]

Bom, bom, bom. One singular sensation. Every little step he takes da da

[Ben Philippe]

da da da da da da.

[Kevin Lan]

One smile and suddenly nobody else will do.

[John Hoffman]

Oh.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Neither writer of this episode is a father, so neither have had to deal with a gassy baby. Here's Steve.

[Ben Philippe]

But I. I had just, like, gotten on the Google and said, like, hey, what do you do with a. With an unruly baby? And, like, what, like, so that, like, came up, like, you know, you put their legs back and maybe they have gas, et cetera, et cetera. And then someone came in after us and added the. The chorus line number, which is just show, you know, so quintessentially Oliver that I think it worked quite well.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

We maybe did six, seven takes, and we were like, we got it, we got it.

[James Caverly]

We're gonna try it again.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Let me try it again. Let's make sure it's perfect. And we were like. So I literally, in between takes, I was like, so when's the last time you've been in a musical? Too long, darling. Too long.

[Stephen Markley]

It's also, like, a wonderful little thing that. Oh, of course Detective Williams knows just a little bit of Broadway in her. That makes perfect sense.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

Do I really have to mention he's the

[James Caverly]

one,

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

like, I don't fucking know. Chorus line.

[Kevin Lan]

That's hilarious.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So how many times did you do that scene where you belted out the song for a chorus line?

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

We did it in a variety of ways because we didn't know how much or how little of it that we wanted to do. One point, I did, like, the whole chorus of it. I did the whole verse and the chorus. And then when we went to adr, he was like, just sing the last two lines. I was like, okay. No, we definitely did different versions of it. But, yeah, we did a fight a couple of times. Martin was so sweet.

[Stephen Markley]

He was like, let's do more.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And you're like, no, we're going to take another quick break. And then what's next for Theo? Then another cryptic clue from Stephen Markley, a simple but telling clue from Ben Philippe, and KK Comes back for the whodunit summit.

[KK Yay]

By the end of the episode, after a day with Mabel, Theo decides to call his father back. He had been ignoring all the calls that had been coming in from him. What has Theo learned from Mabel that made him more willing to accept his father coming back into his life?

[Stephen Markley]

I think Theo really loves his father. Like, no matter the grotesque crimes that Teddy has committed and the trauma that Theo's had to carry, he's carrying both of these things. His love for his father and his Hatred for his father and seeing Mabel and helping her work through her own trauma sort of led him realized that if he has to make a choice in regards to Teddy, which is hang up or pick up the phone, he's gonna pick up the phone. So I think we all in the room and myself and Mark Lee like the idea that this unburdened something for him too.

[James Caverly]

Yeah, I. I can imagine. From Theo's perspective, you know, he's been sheltered from the world and just really serving his father.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is James Caverly again, speaking through his interpreter, Monique.

[James Caverly]

It's really this dark crime world that he's sucked into. And once the secret is out and, you know, he has an identity shift where it's like, okay, the business stops. What am I now? You know, like, I've had this. This. This weight on me for 10 years, to my knowledge. I, you know, I. The forgiveness for that. And. And to forgive himself, he has to go through anger first. And there's anger. He's really against his father for sucking him into this. And it's like, what does he have now? He has nothing. He only has his dad. And, you know, it's like that mob mentality, that loyalty, and he's really in a crux with his identity and. And how he feels about it. And during episode seven, what I see from Theo is that he's trying to remove himself, remove the identity of murderer, of, you know, just crime and. And, you know, just being the assistant, he's trying to remove that from his identity. In episode seven, you see, Theo is. You see the full character arc, if you will. He's becoming different than what we've seen in season one of him. And in that process, we also see him become more. How do I say? Well, we. We see that reconnection with his father, and I. I thought it was very beautifully written.

[Elizabeth Keener]

James's biggest question now is, what's next for Theo?

[James Caverly]

So he's removing himself from this identity and so, okay, like, what's next? Like, so he's getting back to who he thinks. Thinks he is, and that's fine. You know, does he go back to this crime world again because that's what he knows, or does he reconnect with his father again? You know, is there something happening between him and Mabel that kind of takes off, you know, launches off from here? So I'm very curious to see what's going to happen next with Theo.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Season three is official now, in case you haven't heard. So we'll see what's in store for Theo. And Davines says John Hoffman has plans for even more histories.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

And he had said to me, he was like, well, yeah, because if you think about it, Selena's character was the first season. He was like, Steve's was this season. And that leaves someone else for season three. So you put two and two together. Because I'm not going to travel, but I love that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Sounds like season three might be Oliver's season. We did ask Ben and Steve to give us a clue. Here's what they told us.

[Stephen Markley]

Okay, I think I'll spoil something that happened exactly in this virtual room last year in that Mark Lee gave a clue that sent a lot of people chasing their tails. And isn't it time to come clean? Mark Lee, Listen, about the fact that that was gibberish.

[Ben Philippe]

I have a better clue this year. A more on point clue.

[Elizabeth Keener]

To hear Steve's bizarre stuff. Season one clue. Listen to episode seven of last season's podcast. We got a lot of emails with that one. Sorry, guys. Here's a real clue from Ben.

[Stephen Markley]

I think the tagline of the season, the truth is all in how you frame it, sort of sums up the season. And interesting. That's a good one.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's a good one. That is good.

[KK Yay]

Like the frame of the painting

[Elizabeth Keener]

sentence, though. We got it.

[KK Yay]

That was a good one.

[Ben Philippe]

Well, you know, it's so fun working in a writer's room. You know, we're all very weird, idiosyncratic people. We're throwing around ideas all the time. So this season we actually did this crazy thing. We inserted number theory into the show. If you're familiar with number theory, you know, just like, having a little fun or whatever. And so there's this famous conjecture that states that every even integer greater than 2 is the sum of two prime numbers. So all anyone has to do is do that proof for that conjecture, and it actually points straight to who the killer is.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh,

[Ben Philippe]

Just trying to give a good clue, Ben, why are you so mad at me all the time?

[Stephen Markley]

And I will say that on Marcus Clue, he's not wrong.

[Ben Philippe]

Yeah, exactly.

[Stephen Markley]

Like looking at the season amongst anything else.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay. Kay. Yes, Keener, you know what time it is?

[KK Yay]

My favorite time. Yes. It's the whodunit summit.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Summit.

[Ben Philippe]

Summit.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Summit.

[KK Yay]

For those of you who don't know, this is where Keener and I write down who we think the murderer is. Based on what we've seen so far, we place it in a sealed envelope and reveal it right now, live to each other. Keener, are you ready?

[Mark Lee]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, what you got?

[KK Yay]

Okay, you Put Cinder.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, I put Cinda because I just feel like she'll do anything to. Well, I guess she doesn't have to get ahead. She's already ahead, but she just wants to leave everyone in her wake. So I think that it's Cinda because she just is somebody who would do that. I mean, look how she treated Poppy. Look how she treats everybody. Look how she doesn't care that it's a lie with Mabel. And who was the guy, the nine fingered dude, you know? You know what I'm saying? So I think that it's her.

[Stephen Markley]

Right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

And, you know, I might have thought of her in the past and I didn't say her yet, but I'm saying it there. All right, now it's your turn. I'm going to open your envelope and see who you guessed wrong. Who you guessed wrong. Here we go. You said Alice. Okay, good one. I guessed Alice a long time ago. What's your reason?

[KK Yay]

I've guessed Alice in the past, too.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, okay.

[KK Yay]

But for this episode, there was something. Well, we know that the person who was glitter bombed went to Coney island and they were wearing those, like, worker clothes things. And I'm like, who would be in Coney Island? And I was thinking maybe Alice is doing some kind of art project in this, like, closed amusement park. That would be cool.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And you know what?

[KK Yay]

That's my guess.

[Elizabeth Keener]

The person was tall and slender. You know, like, kind of like I was looking at the. If they would crash, try and throw you at that. Or not. But that's kind of who. And they kind of felt. Felt awkwardly and. Yeah.

[KK Yay]

Kind of anxiously shaped. So it could be kind of anybody. Yeah. But because of the art background, I'm going with Alice.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right, well, that's it for us. Thank you. And you bring your guesses to us. Bring them, bring them, bring them. Thank you.

[KK Yay]

Yes,

[Elizabeth Keener]

Thanks for listening to season two, episode seven of Only Murders in the Pod. Our inbox is open again, so please send over your thoughts and theories to only murdersrawhutmedia.com and if you're enjoying the show like I know you are, please, please leave us a rating and a review. It really helps people find the show.

[KK Yay]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted by Elizabeth Keener and Kevin Lan, produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley, Original music by Kyle Merritt, and Only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Xavier Salas, Louisa Maltini, and the entire Hulu. So now it's my favorite time of the podcast where we read our fan mail. Mine is from Brandon W. And he is from Canada. And he is a very interesting theory because he says that people are saying it's Poppy, but she was on the phone with Mabel, and at the same time, the glitter guy was in the subway. So I think a lot of people who were suspecting Poppy kind of forgot that part of it. So I think that can eliminate her. So thank you very much, Brandon, for that tip. Here's Keener.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, that was a good one, kk. I've got a great one, too, from Cynthia from Virginia. Good afternoon, everyone. I am Cindy, and here and my son Thoma. I just watched the latest episode of the show, and we have so many theories of who did this and who Mabel attacked on the subway, among other things. First, Nina's husband attacked Bunny because he didn't like Nina not being the head of the board. Second, Detective Kreps was the person who was glitter bombed because he was setting the three up to see if they would take the bait after he told them to stop and then tried to confront Mabel on the train for not staying out of it. Third, Lenora hired someone to get the painting back from Bunny, and she realized it was a fake and figured out who did it. And they are who she confronted in the diner to get it back. And fourth, Cinda's daughter may have known about the tunnels since Lily knew her from when she was young and Cinda wanted to get back in the building and Bunny wouldn't let her. Just a few ideas. And I loved all those ideas. Thanks, Cindy and Tomas, and I appreciate it. And I think that I do believe Detective Cripps is involved in some way. I'm just trying to figure that out because that was good. He's annoyed. Or the other were, you know, could be the other investigator. I don't know. There's something going on there. Still have feelings towards Cinda. Bad feelings. I'll tell you that right now. And Lenora? She'll be back. Something's going on with her, too.

[KK Yay]

We also want to give a thank you to Nikki B. Ken A, Alex C. From Kentucky. Michael and Tammy, continue the safe driving. See you next week.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Do you think Theo had a prison name? Do you think he was a big fish in prison? What would have been his name?

[James Caverly]

No, no. Theo in prison? Never. He's rolling in the dough. He's got his own chain. I'm his, you know, father's assistant. He's not going to prison. He's staying home and he's. And he's eating the dips.

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

I've said it so many times whenever they call, just because of the simplicity of the work environment and the creativity. The vibe is so good that I'm like, why would I not do it? And also, it's very fun for us because we don't know. And so we're acting in the moment and we don't even have any clip, which is great and I think helps

[James Caverly]

keep,

[Da'Vine Joy Randolph]

I hope, our reactions very present in the moment because we don't know.