S2 E9: Sparring Partners

Summary

Podcast Summary: Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast – S2 E9: Sparring Partners

Date: August 17, 2022
Hosts: Elizabeth Keener & Kevin Lan
Featured Guests: Shirley MacLaine (Rose Cooper/Leonora Folger), John Hoffman (Showrunner/Co-creator), Kirker Butler (Writer), Michael Cyril Crichton (Howard), Divine Joy Randolph

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Episode Overview

Episode 9 (“Sparring Partners”) unpacks the penultimate chapter of Season 2, with hosts Keener and Lan recapping twists, dissecting character arcs, and joining cast and creators—including Shirley MacLaine—for candid stories from set. Focus centers on the unveiling of Detective Kreps’ role, the Rose Cooper/Leonora Folger revelation, shifting suspect lists, and the tangled themes of parenthood and identity at the Arconia.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap of Episode 9 Events

[01:27–03:55]

• Detective Kreps’ corruption comes to light with evidence theft and possible romantic entanglement.
• The Arconia trio realize Kreps is not working alone—a mastermind is at play.
• Charles, Oliver, & Mabel discover the original Rose Cooper painting under Mrs. Gambalini’s cage.
• Alice gifts Mabel a puzzle; Charles investigates the mysterious Leonora Folger and finds Rose Cooper’s address.
• Mabel discovers Kreps’ employee file at Coney Island and confronts him at the “Excessive Force” gym.
• Oliver tells Will he’s his biological father—later revealed to be a lie.
• Major reveals: Kreps is “glitter guy”; Poppy admits she’s Becky Butler (from the “All Is Not OK in Oklahoma” podcast).

2. The Multiple Perspectives Structure

[05:13–06:09]

• John Hoffman explains the show’s hallmark of opening each episode with different character narration for layered New York perspectives.

  “We’re actually building this tapestry of New York characters…we’re gaining new insight on how the world is seeing them.” — John Hoffman [05:13]

3. Detective Kreps & Michael Rapaport’s Performance

[06:09–10:11]

• Kirker Butler and John Hoffman discuss writing Kreps as a classic tough, corrupt New York cop, not initially knowing Rapaport would play him.
• Rapaport’s naturalism with swearing and streetwise humor brings authenticity and unexpected charm.
• The sparring scene between Kreps and Mabel was intense and satirical, but grounded.

  “He just brought that New York authenticity…He’s so good around a cuss word. And it really just works.” — John Hoffman [08:07]

4. Mabel’s Agency & Emotional Arc

[10:11–12:16]

• Mabel’s bold confrontation with Kreps at the gym is a pivotal moment of agency and fearlessness.
• Hoffman reveals care in balancing Mabel’s ongoing trauma with her empowerment:

  “Once you clear this…you’re going to be tough as hell…She feels empowerment after having faced the really hard stuff…” — John Hoffman [11:58]

5. Emotional Journeys: Fatherhood & Identity

[12:16–16:49]

• Parallel stories: Oliver’s DNA lie about Will’s paternity, leading to a cathartic fight and subsequent honesty with Teddy Demas.
• Charles’s journey reframes his father’s legacy through the secret painting, moving from pain to healing:

  “We still wanted it to have some kind of positive ending …that all of his memories about his father weren’t terrible.” — John Hoffman [14:33]

6. Behind the Revelations: Rose Cooper & Fan Theories

[16:49–17:30]

• The Rose Cooper/Leonora Folger twist was widely guessed by fans (“Probably the easiest one to solve.” — John Hoffman [16:44]).
• Writers often read Reddit threads and are “blown away” by fan investment and deductions.

7. Shirley MacLaine’s Take: Legends On Set

[18:00–30:51]

• Shirley MacLaine joins to reflect on filming, her rapport with Steve Martin, and on-set improvisations.
• Candidly admits to not understanding the script’s full intricacies:

  “Absolutely not. I don’t understand it. It’s too complicated for me… I just played what I felt that day, I guess. You think I’m kidding. I’m not.” — Shirley MacLaine [24:34]

• Shares funny behind-the-scenes stories: concern for Michael Cyril Creighton’s knees, cheese-eating improvisation, and dancing with the crew.
• Describes pandemic-era filming challenges—missing social connection with the masked crew.

8. Critical Reveals & Narrative Decisions

[32:38–35:04]

• Confirmed: Kreps is glitter guy and directly involved in the central murder case.
• Poppy’s final confession: she is Becky Butler, the missing woman from the other podcast—a major twist setting up the finale.
• The writing team’s challenge was staging reveals so “it was satisfying and didn’t feel like it was too much at once.” — John Hoffman [33:03]

9. The Whodunit Summit: Theories & Suspects

[40:37–42:29]

• Keener and Lan both independently select Cinda Canning as their prime murder suspect.

  “She did not like the trio stealing her thunder…this is a murder she could control.” — Elizabeth Keener [42:18]

• Shirley MacLaine playfully claims to have “no idea” who the murderer is—or even that a murder occurred. [32:21]
• Listener fan mail introduces wild theories: Kreps as a long-lost sibling, painting mysteries, and more.

10. Creative Process, Soundtrack, and Looking Ahead

[35:41–38:32]

• Love for Siddhartha Khosla’s evocative soundtrack, which is now available for fans.
• Teases for the finale: “There will be a show within a show” next season, hinting at deepening layers in format and story.

11. Shirley MacLaine’s Parting Wisdom

[38:39–39:50]

• Encourages self-reflection and solitude for personal peace and creativity:

  “If we knew ourselves better, I think we would have a more…creative and happy world…I would recommend spending more time alone…” — Shirley MacLaine [38:41]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Acting Through Confusion:

  “I don’t understand it. It’s too complicated for me… I just played what I felt that day.” — Shirley MacLaine [24:34]

• About Steve Martin:

  “He’s an intellectual…and so we talk about things like what’s going on in the world and should we continue?…Then we go from optimism to, well, that’s too unrealistic. He’s a very nice man. And Very smart.” — Shirley MacLaine [21:15]

• On Mabel’s Power:

  “Once you clear this, once you get that out of the way, you’re going to be tough as hell…She feels empowerment after having faced the really hard stuff…” — John Hoffman [11:58]

• On The Show’s Fan Base:

  “Oh, my God, I’m blown away by the fans of the show.” — John Hoffman [16:56]

• About Behind-the-Scenes Fun:

  “I sat in a theater and watched a wonderful musical and thought about how close the seats were. You do that, you know, when you’re in the middle of a kind of a deeply depressing time.” — Shirley MacLaine [29:15]

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Key Timestamps

• [01:27] Episode 9 Recap
• [05:13] John Hoffman on the show’s narrative device
• [06:09] Writing Kreps & casting Michael Rapaport
• [10:11] Mabel’s confrontation at the boxing gym
• [12:16] Oliver & Teddy elevator fight; Charles’s father storyline
• [16:49] Fan theories and painting twist
• [18:12] Shirley MacLaine joins for candid behind-the-scenes
• [24:34] MacLaine on acting and the show’s complexity
• [32:38] Episode’s big reveals dissected
• [40:37] The “Whodunit Summit” (Murder theories)
• [38:39] Shirley MacLaine’s closing thoughts on solitude and creativity

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Tone & Language

• Irreverent, playful, and self-aware, in line with the show’s own blend of comedy and mystery.
• Shirley MacLaine’s dry wit, candidness, and ability to poke fun at her own confusion about the script stand out as highlights.
• The conversation is peppered with heartfelt admiration among cast, writers, and hosts, giving the episode a warm, communal feel.

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For Fans & Newcomers

This episode is a treasure trove for fans seeking backstage stories and character motivations, as well as for newcomers wanting an engaging, spoiler-rich rundown of S2 E9 before the finale. If you’re following the whodunit, theorizing along, or just love hearing Shirley MacLaine riff on acting and life, this episode delivers both depth and delightful chaos.

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Transcript

[Shirley MacLaine]

Straw Hut Media.

[Kevin Lan]

Shirley, have you ever listened to a podcast?

[Shirley MacLaine]

No. So I don't know what we're really doing here.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Who are we? We're a couple of true crime aficionados,

[Kevin Lan]

kind of like Charles, Oliver and Mabel, the three main characters in the Hulu original show Only Murders in the Building now in season two.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we're here making a podcast about a show where the characters make their own podcast about a murder.

[Kevin Lan]

I'm your host, Kevin Lon.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And I'm your host, Elizabeth Keener.

[Kevin Lan]

Why are we here?

[Elizabeth Keener]

To solve a murder and to try to figure out who the killer is before all is revealed in the season finale, which is so soon, so soon.

[Kevin Lan]

We may not be in the Arconia ourselves, but we'll get some inside information from members of the cast and crew and clues to help us piece it all together.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Today we'll be talking to the writer of episode nine, Kirker Butler, and the one and only Shirley MacLaine.

[Kevin Lan]

Plus, we'll hear more from showrunner and co creators John Hoffman, actress Divine Joy Randolph, and actor Michael Cyril Crichton.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We'll hear about the Gerdinus Michael Rapoport brought to Detective Cripps, Shirley MacLaine's friendship with Steve Martin, and how much she knew about her Rose Cooper original.

[Kevin Lan]

The music from today's show is all from the official Only Murders soundtrack season two, which was just released. So if you like the music from the show, check that out.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And as of now, we've seen the first nine episodes, so listeners beware. We're going to give a quick recap. If you haven't watched, hit the pause button, stream episode nine now and come right back so we don't spoil anything for you. Episode 9. Oh, we're so close. This episode opens with a voiceover from Detective Cripps.

[Detective Kreps (Michael Rapaport)]

Last year, the NYPD had a budget of five and a half billion doll.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He's a bit crooked. He's definitely stolen evidence, and he's got a crush on someone.

[Kevin Lan]

The trio thinks there must be a mastermind behind Krups's involvement in Bunny's murder.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And Oliver tries to pawn off Mrs. Gambalini onto Charles. And while they're fighting, they find the original Rose Cooper painting in a secret compartment under the cage.

[Kevin Lan]

Alice brings Mabel a puzzle she made her as a gift. And Charles tries to call Leonora Folger and discovers that the woman they met at Bunny's funeral was not her.

[Elizabeth Keener]

He finds an address on the back of the watch he inherited from his dad. And it's Rose Cooper's who had been masquerading as big Bunny.

[Shirley MacLaine]

You found it.

[Rose Cooper (Shirley MacLaine's character)]

I found you, Rose Cooper.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, tell me something I don't know.

[Kevin Lan]

Mabel finds Kreps employee file at Coney island and goes to the excessive forest gym to confront him, even though Oliver

[Elizabeth Keener]

told Charles, Mabel, and Will that he's Will's biological father.

[Rose Cooper (Shirley MacLaine's character)]

So does that mean you're Greek?

[Michael Cyril Crichton]

Greekish.

[Shirley MacLaine]

What's Greekish?

[John Hoffman]

Well, you know how I thought I was Irish?

[Elizabeth Keener]

We learned that he's been lying when he attacks Teddy Demas in the elevator.

[Kevin Lan]

Rose Cooper comes over to talk to Charles. She reveals the painting underneath the painting. It's one of Charles and his father looking at the arconia. It turns out his father wasn't such a bad guy after all.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And she also tells him that there was a woman with brown hair and glasses sniffing around about the painting.

[Kevin Lan]

Kreps, let's slip that his girlfriend works for a real true crime pot. And Mabel sees the same chicken logo from the backpack on his towel.

[Elizabeth Keener]

She remembers what it's from. It's the chicken restaurant from all is not okay, the podcast that brought the trio together in the first place.

[Kevin Lan]

Kreps went down to Oklahoma to help solve the case and might have had a romance with Cinda.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And Poppy admits to Mabel that she's actually Becky Butler, the woman who disappeared in the all is not okay podcast.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Because I'm Becky Butler.

[Detective Kreps (Michael Rapaport)]

But every once in a while, you meet someone and everything changes. And your whole goddamn universe turns upside down. And that's when gets really crazy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, oh, kk, this has been a journey, huh?

[Kevin Lan]

My suspect list has changed an awful lot over the past nine episodes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Dramatically. Dramatically. I think mine has, too. I don't know. Did I even say?

[Kevin Lan]

Yes, Yours has changed a lot, too.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I don't know if I use the same person twice.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Howard.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I used Howard. Always Howard. And I used a lot of people from last season. You know, I just kind of keep adding. Just keep adding.

[Kevin Lan]

You never know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And then third season, why not? We'll just keep going. Oh, God. But this is exciting. And you guys, you've probably noticed that every episode opens with narration from a different character. Here's co creator and showrunner John Hoffman on that decision.

[John Hoffman]

You know, when we started working on the show last season, we began to discover this approach that we might take to come in from different perspectives and learn about people's perspectives on the same case. So that became very exciting. But more than that, it was a realization, oh, we're actually building this tapestry of New York characters, you know, that we're looking at not just their perspective. They're. We're getting them a little bit more of their experience, hopefully. Sometimes we're doing it to gain a new perspective of our trio. You know, in episode six of last year, we had Detective Williams narrating, and she discovered her wife was listening to the podcast by this trio she encountered earlier on in the season. So we're looking at the trio from a completely different perspective that they have no idea about. But we're gaining new insight on how the world is seeing them.

[Kevin Lan]

And in this episode, we're hearing from Detective Kreps.

[John Hoffman]

You know, it was really funny. When we first started writing that character, we didn't know it was gonna be Michael Rappaport.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This is Kirker Butler, who wrote episode nine this season. We also had him on last season for episode two, who is Tim Kon.

[John Hoffman]

And so we just kind of started with the dialogue. He was this tough, kind of New York asshole cop.

[Detective Kreps (Michael Rapaport)]

My salary was $85,819 before taxes, alimony, and the mortgage on this fucking dump where I also live.

[John Hoffman]

So then once we went out to Michael Raport and he said yes, then it was like, oh, we immediately know who this guy is. And he was so fun to write for. I was on set for a few days on episode nine in. I don't know. This airs after the episode. Right. So I can talk. Yeah. Okay. So I was in the boxing gym, and I watched he and Selena do that. That whole scene where they're kind of interrogating each other. And it was intense. I mean, he was really, really great. And I think it's so interesting that what's coming up for him in 10 as well, I think is. Is pretty great.

[Detective Kreps (Michael Rapaport)]

You do a joint like this, and she or he, if that's your thing, they smile at you, and your whole goddamn universe turns upside down. And that's when shit gets really crazy.

[Kevin Lan]

I mean, we know that Detective Kreps is crooked. We know he thinks he's really smart, but maybe isn't quite as smart as he thinks.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But what's coming up for him in episode 10, do you think?

[Kevin Lan]

I'm not sure. I'm very curious. I am wondering if he did this on his own or. Because they did say he's not smart enough to do it by himself, but he had the glitter on him. So he's involved, right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, he is involved. Big time. And Michael Rapaport brings so much life to Crips.

[John Hoffman]

He just brought that New York authenticity. Like, he's just, you know, when Selena says in the first episode, you know, do you say fuck? Because it makes you. You think it makes you sound. It's. He's so good swearing, you know, I mean, if you go back to the Spike Lee movies and everything, he's so. He's so good around a cuss word. And it really just works. He just brought a really natural edge to it. And, you know, the guy's funny too, so he's able to make this. This oddly, I think, charming in a way.

[Kevin Lan]

Enjoyable.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, totally. And you know what? And he does. It doesn't look like he's just trying to shove in, you know, fuck using this. He really, really does look like that. Just how he speaks. And he is charming in a way. He's fun to watch. He really is great. Yeah, he really is.

[John Hoffman]

That, that, that sparring scene, I just, I couldn't. I was. I started. I was in the other room watching on the monitor and it was so good. I went into the room where it was being shot and just stood nearby because I wanted to just see him act like in person. He was. It was great. And Selena was so good in that too.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah, we had a.

[John Hoffman]

We had a. We talked about. I don't think it was ever written. Maybe it was written, but we had talked about a scene of her actually hitting him like hard a couple times. And once we did, it just felt unrealistic that the small but strong woman would beat up Michael Rapoport, this angry, grizzled cop.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Right, right.

[Kevin Lan]

Mabel beating on craps wasn't the only idea for the boxing gym that started and ended in the writers room.

[John Hoffman]

At one point we had a thing where we were going to have Steve and Marty there too. And Marty was going to be like a Burgess Meredith and Rocky type thing. He was just going to be going for the kill, you know, but it just.

[Kevin Lan]

Water bottles squirting in her mouth.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, it just felt even sillier. So we had to. We wanted to keep it real.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Mabel showing up to the gym on her own to confront Kreps took some serious chutzpah.

[John Hoffman]

I think that at that point she's just taking. We talked a lot about, you know, how much are we going to put on this. This poor woman? And, you know, with her in season one, her good friend had been murdered. And then in this season, you know, she's in this toxic relationship with this woman who is co opting her trauma for her own art. And we're like, how much can we, can we do this and not like break this character?

[Detective Kreps (Michael Rapaport)]

Why the fuck are you here?

[Shirley MacLaine]

Just wanted to ask some questions.

[Detective Kreps (Michael Rapaport)]

Well, that ain't how this works, see. Cause I. I'm the cop.

[Shirley MacLaine]

How's your arm? The one I stabbed after you attacked me.

[John Hoffman]

But we felt like at this point, she was so determined to get to the bottom of it and that she didn't care. She didn't care who she had to confront. And as you see in that scene, she goes in there and she is fearless. She's not afraid to call him out, to say in a, you know, a full voice, does your arm hurt where I stabbed you? And, you know, there's a bunch of other cops there. And she's at that point, is just not afraid to get to it because she's got, you know, she's got a murder to solve. She's got to clear her own name.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Here's showrunner and co creator John Hoffman.

[John Hoffman]

We talked a lot about it, Selina and I. And when I shared with her, you know, episode seven and all of the stuff that was revealed about her father and the trauma and the source of the missing elements in these traumatic events in her mind and all of that, she was like, oh, I'm like, I know.

Don't worry.

But once you clear this, once you get that out of the way, you're going to be tough as hell. You're badass and clear road ahead. And that really is exactly what it is. She feels empowerment after having faced the really hard stuff that was the emotional barrier.

[Kevin Lan]

The Phoenix Rising.

[John Hoffman]

That's it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

While Mabel is interrogating Kreps at the gym, Oliver and Charles are on their own journeys. Back at the Arconia.

[Kevin Lan]

For Oliver, it's the DNA results. He starts by telling Charles and Mabel and even Will that the results confirmed him as the biological father.

[Elizabeth Keener]

But we kind of already knew that wasn't going to be the truth. Right, kk?

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah. And it leads to a confrontation in the elevator.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, a big one. Bitch.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Ow.

[John Hoffman]

Ow. Oh, no. Okay, okay.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, guys.

[Shirley MacLaine]

All right, you guys have fun.

[John Hoffman]

Be safe.

[Kevin Lan]

Okay.

[John Hoffman]

Ow. My phone. Ouch.

[Kevin Lan]

What the hell is wrong with you?

[John Hoffman]

Why are you doing this? Oh, don't act like you. You don't know, do you?

[Elizabeth Keener]

But after they duke it out, they're able to talk openly in a way they haven't been able to in a long while.

[John Hoffman]

You know, it's been tense with them for a long time, but they're old friends, and we, as writers, and especially I fell in love with Nathan Lane in season one. I thought. I mean, I've always known he was great, but I've never seen him do anything like this. And he just blew us all away. And so we were like, we don't care how. We have to get him back. Like, it would make sense that he was going to jail or awaiting trial or whatever, but we had to get him back in the building. And then we had to have another scene with he and Marty because they were just so good together. And we had this idea of this DNA test where, you know, he would be. That Will would. It would come back. And it was. He was primarily Greek. And when we pitched that in the room, I remember everyone was like, oh, yeah, that's so great. And, you know, how else can we fuck with poor Oliver? And it just felt right because it was a way to kind of get their past in there. It was a huge emotional story for Oliver and it allowed us to really get Nathan in there and do some great scenes. But he's just. He's been so good, as you all well know from watching the show.

[Kevin Lan]

Charles, on the other hand, is on his own journey within the theme of fatherhood.

[John Hoffman]

But we talked a lot about who Charles father really was. Was he a good guy? Was he a bad guy? We went around a lot of different ways. We had a scene for a while where he, you know, he talked to his father in the secret passageways at one point. And we were just trying to figure out how. How to work that relationship or make that relationship to where it wasn't tragic because there was so much like Mabel's father had died and Will was not. I mean, Oliver was not Will's father. And there was a lot of father and child stuff happening. And even though Steve has a strained relationship or Charles had a strange relationship with his father, we still wanted it to have some kind of positive ending for him so that all of his memories about his father weren't. Weren't terrible. So I forgot who it was who pitched the idea that there would be a painting under this painting that showed, like, what his father's dream for his kid was, but unrealized.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And it's thanks to Charles's detective skills that he's able to unmask Rose Cooper and get to the secret painting under the painting.

[John Hoffman]

That scene in I forget which episode it was, where Charles father is being hauled away by the police we talked about. And I think it was written. I don't know if it was shot. I don't know if it ended up in a final script or not, but where he was sitting there, the young Charles, and there's a woman's hand on his shoulder. And he looks up and he sees that it's Rose Cooper. And we played that up a little bit more, but we didn't want to give anything away, so we ended up cutting that. It was a long debate about how much do we tell there. How much do we tell when she's getting into the cab or the car at the end of the of episode two. So there's a lot of debate about the Leonora Folger, but we did want it to have end with her giving him that painting.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And I will say, Keiki, I just want to say a lot of fans guessed that Rose was Lenora. They guessed it.

[John Hoffman]

So, you know, I think of all of our mysteries, that's probably the easiest one to solve.

[Elizabeth Keener]

How dare you? You have to give them something. Don't know. You fans, you really did a lot of work for that.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, my go. They are. I read the stuff on Reddit and just, oh, my God, I'm blown away by the fans of the show.

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah, they're really invested in the show and it's so global. Just from the emails that we get from people.

[John Hoffman]

It's amazing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. So they can take them.

[John Hoffman]

It's fun for us too. There were things that we would read on Reddit and they're like, oh, well, the writers obviously did this. And we're like, we did. That is exactly what we were thinking because we're that smart.

[Kevin Lan]

Getting back to the painting, do you think that Bunny knew that that second painting was there?

[John Hoffman]

Oh, that's a good question.

[Kevin Lan]

In the writer's room.

[John Hoffman]

I don't know. It was. I feel like she wouldn't know that otherwise she would have had two Rose Coopers and that would have been. You know, she seems like the kind of person who would really kind of revel in that, having two of those and finding the secret painting. So I don't think she knew it was there. I don't think anyone knew it was

[Kevin Lan]

there except Rose co Rose Cooper, who is played by the amazing Shirley MacLaine, someone everyone seems to fangirl and fanboy over. Including us.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, especially us.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Hello.

[Kevin Lan]

Hello, Shirley.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[John Hoffman]

How are you?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, such energy.

[Kevin Lan]

Hey, Brian, it's great to meet you and I appreciate you taking the time. I'm here with the whole podcast team.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, okay.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's right. We talked to the amazing Shirley Mlan.

[John Hoffman]

You did?

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's what I'm saying. She was so funny and so kind and generous and smart and wonderful. All the things, you know, she Is. I mean, just all of it.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, she really is a dream. And she's 88 freaking years old and sharp as ever. I mean.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And we'll hear more from her and from Kirker after a quick break.

[John Hoffman]

We were just talking in the room one day, and he said, do you think maybe we could. But Shirley MacLaine be right for Leonora? And we're all like, yes, John. Of course she'd be right for anything. Like, anything.

[Kevin Lan]

Welcome back. This is Kirk Butler, the writer of Episode nine.

[John Hoffman]

And so he called her and she agreed to do it. And I'd heard this from John, that Steve was very like, I get to work with Shirley MacLaine. Like, he was excited to work with this legend, as well he should be. But that scene that they had together, it was really great. Yeah, yeah. And he was.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, it was a beautiful scene.

[Rose Cooper (Shirley MacLaine's character)]

So the Cocotinis are yours, Not Leonora Folgers.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I knew enough about her to pull off a little day trip into the city, but I think I'm slipping now. I don't know how you actors do it, pretending to be somebody else all the time. It's exhausting.

[Rose Cooper (Shirley MacLaine's character)]

You pulled it off like the master you are.

[Shirley MacLaine]

It's exciting for you, isn't it, Figuring out little mysteries.

[Rose Cooper (Shirley MacLaine's character)]

Not so little. The world has been wondering about you for years.

[Shirley MacLaine]

The world, please. Yes, I recall that scene. I don't think they had written what I. I don't. I don't know. I just know what I had to do with. With acting, that it's a mystery and it's not this painting. It's the wrong painting. That's all I know.

[Elizabeth Keener]

This, of course, is Shirley MacLaine, who plays Rose Cooper and Leonora Folger. Our producer, Ryan, tried to dive a little deeper.

[Kevin Lan]

What was the conversation like with. With Steve before approaching that scene?

[Shirley MacLaine]

I think we were talking about what we had had for dinner the night before.

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah.

[Shirley MacLaine]

The really important topic of conversation after 60. He's a delight, Steve, his. He really is. We've known each other for years.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You want to elaborate? Please do.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah. I can't remember when I met him because I don't remember all that much of anything anyway. But he's an intellectual. And so we talk about things like what's going on in the world and should we continue? And is there any point in getting up in the morning? And then we talk about optimism. Then we go from optimism to, well, that's too unrealistic. Let's talk about that reality. And he's a very nice man. And Very smart. Well, there's a difference, you know, being. Being creative is part of intellectuality.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, yes.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And that's. That was what was interesting, discussing things like that with. With Steve.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Mostly Steve. I mean, I like Marty a lot. He's a sweetheart. But I mostly identify with the time of Steve Martin, although I'm way past below him in terms of being born years before. But I do like his white hair and his intellect, which is more like what I grew up with.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, yes. He's always had that white hair. Right. I haven't even. Did he ever have. I never remember him not having that white hair.

[Kevin Lan]

I think you're right.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And an arrow through his head. Shirley.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, the era. I mean, we're in such a different era than what I'm used to that I. I have to. I have to relearn English and stuff.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah. It's very. It's very interesting and. And in many ways, off putting.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Shirley MacLaine]

So that's why I like to go and do something like a show right here. You go back to New York, sit in a restaurant with my face covered.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And take her mask off every time I swallow. So.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yep. Yeah. I always wonder, did you ever. I know he plays so many instruments and you sing. Did you ever just kind of do that at parties and things like that? Just kind of sing and play?

[Shirley MacLaine]

I used to play violin when I

[John Hoffman]

was a kid because my dad was a violinist.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah. And, you know, I got. I took lessons and could actually halfway perform, but it was. The violin became too heavy.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Good thing it wasn't a cello.

[Shirley MacLaine]

No. I didn't need to sit down. Not yet.

[John Hoffman]

No.

[Shirley MacLaine]

But I did play the violin, and I always think about that because it's. It's a very elusive.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Instrument.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's a beautiful instrument.

[Kevin Lan]

When was the last time you played the violin?

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, my God. At my last funeral of my other life. I don't know. I can't remember. Wow.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Just imagine.

[Shirley MacLaine]

But it was, you know, I was a kid and. Yeah. Then I got into dancing and performing. Otherwise.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Can you tell us about Leonora Slash Rose's character and her character arc?

[Shirley MacLaine]

Absolutely not. I don't understand it. It's too complicated for me. I don't know what's going on in the script. Neither did any of the other actors. And so I have no idea. I just. I played what I felt that day, I guess. You think I'm kidding. I'm not.

[Elizabeth Keener]

No, I don't think. Well. Well, that works for you, because that was a. Let me tell you, that was a powerful scene that you had with Steve Martin. It really was. It's a beautiful scene.

[Kevin Lan]

And you were playing a character who was playing a different character. An imposter.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, an imposter.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, really? Oh, that's what it was.

[Kevin Lan]

Oh.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We'll let you know what you were playing.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Good. Somebody's gotta fill me in. Okay.

[Kevin Lan]

It worked really well.

[John Hoffman]

And she'll laugh about all the stuff she doesn't understand and know either. She'll probably. I'm sure she said, I had no idea what the hell I was doing.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, completely. It was so funny. She's so great.

[John Hoffman]

But then you watch the scene and it's like you clearly knew what you were doing.

So it's like she's Shirley freaking McLean.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, she's Shirley freaking McLean.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, that's the thing. Like at the end of the day, that's what Steve Martin said. Geez, you could. I mean, she would be all over the place telling the funniest stories and stuff like that, and then settle her down into that scene. And he was like, boy, she's got it.

She's still got it.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Got it for sure.

[Kevin Lan]

Since we had Shirley on the phone, we had to ask about filming Bunny's memorial back in episode two.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Especially because Michael Cyril Crichton, who plays Howard Morris, had told us this.

[Michael Cyril Crichton]

There's actually a really funny thing. This was actually this very fun. And it got cut out.

[John Hoffman]

But after she.

[Michael Cyril Crichton]

After I gave her the coca Tiny, she told me to crawl away. And then there's just like a long shot of Howard holding the martini glass, crawling back to the kitchen. It makes perfect sense that it was cut because it was like literally too long, not serving the story. But it was really fun to do. And she was really concerned that. She was like, please tell me you have knee pads on. Please tell me you have knee pads on. And I did. She was very worried about me. She was very amazing.

[Kevin Lan]

Wow.

[Michael Cyril Crichton]

That was the best. That was an incredible day.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, that's right. It wasn't in the script. I don't know why. It looked like he needed a rest.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, that's.

[Shirley MacLaine]

That's immediately he got down on his knees and. And did what most people should do with me.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And he said he loved doing it, by the way.

[John Hoffman]

Yes.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Faster, faster. And he went faster. And then I thought, well, maybe you should leap for something. But he had already made it to the kitchen.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, my God. So funny. Well, were there any other behind the scenes improvising moments that you can tell us about or that you Remember or anything.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Oh, my God. How can I remember back to December? Wait a minute now. Let me think. Well, I remember we were in the middle of COVID and I'm not used to working on the set with everybody wearing masks. I like to know who the people are. So I guess I would go around asking, well, who are you? A lot of the crew. And there was one member of the crew who really knew how to do a wonderful dance. And so I wanted to dance with him.

[Kevin Lan]

What kind of dance was it?

[Shirley MacLaine]

They were. They were lighting, so I didn't cost any time. Might have to think about that.

[Kevin Lan]

I'm still so curious what kind of dance this lighting guy did that impressed Shirley MacLaine.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, let's see. The Watusi.

[Kevin Lan]

Is it forbidden?

[Elizabeth Keener]

The mashed potato. I. What did you say the Lombada already? It is forbidden. You know what? That's probably the one. It's forbidden. It's Shirley MacLaine.

[Kevin Lan]

All right, it's Lombada. We're going with that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And that same scene back in episode two. They may have cut Howard crawling back to the kitchen, but they left in the bit with Rose struggling with the cheese.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, we were late for lunch, so I was hungry.

[Kevin Lan]

Multitasking.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yes. And then just doing what occurred to me

[Kevin Lan]

about how many days did you film altogether for the show? Do you recall?

[Shirley MacLaine]

I think I was in New York for a week and a half or two weeks and you know, it was all about how do we get across town and not go to lunch or dinner with anybody? And. And I sat in a theater and watched a wonderful musical and thought about how close the seats were. You do that, you know, when you're in the middle of a kind of a deeply depressing time.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And then. But still, you've got to be creative when you go to work, so. And that didn't really hamper anything in our. In our shoot, but it did in the off stage reality because I couldn't get to know the crew. I didn't know who I was talking to and who was who might have wandered on the set. I didn't ask too many questions. I just ate the cheese.

[Rose Cooper (Shirley MacLaine's character)]

Did you go into hiding because my father was threatening you? I don't know a lot about my father, but I don't think he was a good man. And it has haunted me, me my whole life. And then you came along.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I hope that you charge rent to the people inside your head. You'd make a fortune. Do you have the painting, please? I haven't seen our episode that you're supposed to be talking about.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It's so good, Shirley. So good. Oh, it's incredible. So much to unpack. And it's so beautiful and done so well, and it's just. And all the different. You know, there's comedy, drama, serious. It's just all beautiful, you know, with the. With the.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I'm talking about the whole show or just that episode?

[Kevin Lan]

Well, the whole show. And your scenes in particular.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, we'll see.

[Kevin Lan]

How's that?

[Shirley MacLaine]

Okay. You don't have to get down on your knees. It's all right.

[Elizabeth Keener]

KK's always down on his knees.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, while you're there,

[Kevin Lan]

you could use a refresh on the Cocotini.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Now, that's something John and I made up.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, the Cocotini.

[Shirley MacLaine]

We would have that. Yeah, we would have that every time we had lunch. Wow. And that. And then, of course, if they change bartenders, we'd have to revise him all over again.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Isn't that the case? You got to get the perfect one every time.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, sure. What's the point of having a coca teeny that isn't perfect? And. And so we made it up.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Once again, listeners, if you enjoy a cocktail and you haven't tried a Cocotini yet, head to the show notes of episode two for a Shirley MacLaine approved recipe.

[Kevin Lan]

Did you have any guesses of who the murderer is?

[Shirley MacLaine]

I have no idea. I mean, was someone murdered? I have no idea.

[Kevin Lan]

Keener, do you think you know who the murderer is?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, I always think I know who the murderer is, but it's not time for the whodunit summit yet, kk.

[Kevin Lan]

True, but all signs seem to be pointing to Cinda, right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, they do. But this episode had a lot of big reveals. We know for sure that Kreps is Glitter Guy and that he was down in Oklahoma for the Becky Butler podcast.

[Kevin Lan]

Right. And we know that the woman we thought was Leonora Folger is actually Rose Cooper.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes, yes. And we know that Teddy Demas is Will's biological father.

[Kevin Lan]

And we know that someone with brown hair and glasses was sniffing around the painting. There's so many big reveals going on.

[John Hoffman]

Well, we have a lot, because we set up a lot in this season. And I think the. The trick is to do it in such a way to where we. We have just enough to where it's like, oh, my God, the reveal at the end of nine about Poppy is incredible. It's so great, and it makes you want to watch the last episode. You just want to dive right into the Next episode. But I think the key is to figure out how to space them out to where it doesn't feel like an information. And. And we're still kind of playing into the mystery. And so we had so many things that we wanted to tell and so many stories that we did tell. And that was a challenge for us to figure out exactly how we wanted to reveal them to where it was satisfying and didn't feel like it was too much at once.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I really didn't know that. That Oliver was not telling the truth, that it wasn't his son. I did. Anybody? I didn't think that. I mean, I could have if I thought about it. He's not Greek or whatever, but I didn't. I was just watching it effortlessly, and then, wow, it just hit me with.

[Kevin Lan]

He's a very convincing liar when he needs to be.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that character has probably lied to many people in his life.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Every.

[Kevin Lan]

Investors.

[John Hoffman]

Everybody. His wife. Yeah, sure, everyone.

[Kevin Lan]

So maybe the biggest reveal of this episode is that Poppy is actually Becky Butler from All is not okay in Oklahoma. Are we going to learn more about that in episode 10?

[John Hoffman]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Come again?

[John Hoffman]

That's all I'm gonna say. Yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Without revealing too much question was way longer.

[Kevin Lan]

I know.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

I just, It's. I don't want to give anything away. I think episode 10, it's just. It's very satisfying, and I don't want to taint it in any way. I don't want to give credit. Anything to talk about. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

There's so many great songs from the soundtrack this season. Kk. I mean.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Kevin Lan]

What's your favorite? Keener?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, no, I'm not going to pick a favor, because then I'll get screwed. But you know what? Honestly, the music on this show is

[Kevin Lan]

just very dramatic but soothing at the same time.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, soothing. Nice work.

[Kevin Lan]

If you want to learn more about how the music for the show is created, listen to our podcast, season one, episode eight, titled Double Time.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, yeah, we talked to composer Darth Khosla.

[Kevin Lan]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We started this episode talking about a crooked cop. Why not end it with one of the straight ones?

[Kevin Lan]

Well, she's not exactly straight.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Right. Okay. The good gay cop.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Those last two episodes, I don't know how they did it. We literally filmed it. It in chunks because everyone is there. And so we literally. They had like, markers or like little. Like a pillow. A pink pillow is this person and that one is. And we.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Because people.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Wow. In that space.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

To have the, like, dun, dun, dun. You know who done it at the end of the season that it was just. It was amazing the way they were able to tackle it. I don't know how to do it. But again, it's like really beautifully organized chaos. I would say, like, for me, the end of the actor, it's crazy. Other situations, I'm telling you, on other shows, directors would just like scream and run for the hills. I think when you watch the end of this season on a very lovely actor loved by many very talented kind will appear and they will then be continuing into season three as the main story. That will be in connection with the other character who we haven't delved into their life yet.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, I'll give you another one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm going to give you another one. Very dangerous. It will be a show within a show in season three.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm gonna get in so much trouble.

[Elizabeth Keener]

See, layer after layer. No, this is. No, no, don't worry.

[Kevin Lan]

If I get fire, it's already hurting my head.

[Shirley MacLaine]

It is so much fun.

[Kevin Lan]

But no.

[John Hoffman]

Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

There will be a show within a show. From at least what I've been told last.

[Kevin Lan]

There will be a within a podcast.

[Ryan Tillotson]

In the Only Murders show.

[Kevin Lan]

Before we get to the who done it summit, here are some parting words. Words from the one and only Shirley MacLaine.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I mean, we really loved talking with her.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, I guess if you're going to fill up the air with your talking, it should say something, shouldn't it? What shall I say? I think that we all have to spend more time alone. I think we have to be more involved with who we are and who we're not. And when we get more acquainted with ourselves, because that hasn't been happening for quite a while, we're just more acquainted with what's going on on the outside and then how to respond to it. But if we knew ourselves better, I think we would have a more. A more flowing and creative and happy world. And I would recommend spending some time together and then some time alone. But mostly right now. I think more time alone would be recommended for. For being more involved with what your future might be.

[Kevin Lan]

Self reflect.

[Elizabeth Keener]

You know what? And I thought of the next title, Lonely Murders in the Building.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Well, that way nobody gets killed. See, that's why it's a good idea.

[Elizabeth Keener]

That's right.

[Kevin Lan]

It's a short. It's a short series,

[Elizabeth Keener]

as we said. Everyone, the soundtrack is available, so we're going to leave a link in our notes and then you can purchase it and enjoy it to your little murderous hearts and content.

[Kevin Lan]

Act out scenes at home.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Perfect. KK Episode nine. And we are ready again one more time for the who Done It?

[Kevin Lan]

Summit. Are you ready to go?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. Tell people again real quickly what this is.

[Kevin Lan]

This is where Keener and I, based off what we have seen so far, write down who we think the murderer is, seal it in an envelope for each other until right now when we reveal it. Keener. Okay, Ready to go?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. And I'm going to open yours first. Okay. So here we go. You said Cinda.

[Kevin Lan]

Cinda, yes.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Do tell.

[Kevin Lan]

Well, she just seems like the murderer at the very end of the episode. And I will say I did guess her before. Are as you probably don't recall, but never. I never recall suspected her. I think she was my very first guest. And now she is my last guest because I don't think we'll have a whodunit summit next week.

[Elizabeth Keener]

We should have it anyway. So just to see if we're right,

[Kevin Lan]

Cinda Canning is my suspect. Ready?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay, let's do mine then. Let's just do it.

[Kevin Lan]

You said Cinda.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes.

[Kevin Lan]

Great moment.

[Elizabeth Keener]

So, I don't know. I don't know how you copied me without knowing mine first, but yes, great minds. If you remember, I said cinder last season. So something's happening, I do believe. Finally.

[Kevin Lan]

Last season.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. At some point. I know it.

[Kevin Lan]

You're like one of those cogs and you see a crime before it happened.

[Elizabeth Keener]

It was a preg. Yes. For those of you. You can look that up, but yes, I think it's Cinder, too. I mean, I don't know. She turns slowly but surely in the chicken cluck cluck place. And, you know, what else could it be? Right? What else could it be? Gay.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Gay.

[Kevin Lan]

She did not like the trio stealing her thunder.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Never.

[Kevin Lan]

And this is a murder she could control.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yes. A murder she could control. That's very good. I'm going to write that down, put on a T shirt and sell it. Okay, well, thank you guys so much. We appreciate you.

[Kevin Lan]

Thanks, everybody.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Thanks for listening to season two, episode nine of Only Murders in the Pod. Our inbox is open, so please send over your thoughts and theories to only murderstrawhutmedia.com and if you're enjoying the show, please leave us. Rating and a review. It really helps people find the show.

[Kevin Lan]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted by Elizabeth Keener, me and Kevin Lan Me, produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley, original music by Kyle Merritt, and only Murderous theme music by Siddhartha Khosla Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Xavier Salas, Louisa Maltini and the entire Hulu team.

[Elizabeth Keener]

All right, here we go with the fan mail and the guests and the theories and all that. And you know what? I am going to talk like this, like Alice in this one because I feel like doing it this time because you know what?

[Kevin Lan]

In homage to Ellis. Homage to Alice and her possibly fake accent.

[Elizabeth Keener]

And her possibly fake accent. Yes. Here we go. Jeff from Harper's Ferry. He sent us a couple and. Thank you, Jeff. I'm just going to read a little bit of yours. Why did Kreps break in Charles's door? He knew nothing about the walls until the break in and was after Charles revenge for the glitter bomb and knitting needle attack after Kreps comment to Mark, dirty cop and a terrible person. Oh, he's got Krebs's number, I think, right, K.K. yeah, that is some good shite.

[Kevin Lan]

The letter I picked this week is from Kennedy, from Utah, and is also some Krebs stuff. They said that they have a theory that Detective Kreps is the half brother of Charles. And since Charles's father had many romances, perhaps Kraps is the result of one of those. Possibly even Rose Cooper could be his mother. And he also thinks that he is jealous of Charles, who plays a pretend detective on television, stealing the spotlight from Krups, who is a actual New York City detective.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Well, you know, we need pie charts and labels, diagrams, diagrams and trees. Like we need to see reenactments. Oh, you and I can reenact everything. But I, I am like amazed at what people send us. They, they really push through and think it really hard. And there's a lot of theories, processes. Right.

[Kevin Lan]

It's always interesting to hear that.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah. And I guess Kreps is the bad boy. I mean, they are thinking to be

[Shirley MacLaine]

leaning towards crap, right?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Glitter guy or what, I mean, what have you. And he's got the excessive force going on. He's got things.

[Kevin Lan]

And we want to give a shout out to Alicia B. Ryan, P, Jeff L, Juliet, Susie, Karen Tomb, Jackie D, Ted. Keep them coming. We love your thoughts and theories.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Yeah, we got the whole Alphabet there, right? I mean, A to Z. Thank you everyone. It's global. It really is. Thank you everyone. We, we read them all and we, we try and shout out to you, but thank you so much for sending. And your doggies. How many doggies do you have? I just would hurt them.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Have three. Three rat terriers and two big shepherds.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Oh, oh, baby, this is. Yeah, That's a sweet family there. Yeah.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And. And. And I live in a. In a. In a doggy place. And. No, I don't. I'm just going off a track here.

[Elizabeth Keener]

A kennel isn't a kennel.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I live in a kennel. I couldn't think of the word.

[Elizabeth Keener]

Okay. All right, let's do this. Let me grab a little water. Oh, there's dogs barking. I got TaskRabbit doing my IKEA stuff in the back. Banging. We'll see what happens.

[Kevin Lan]

What?

[Elizabeth Keener]

Hey, that. Where it was it. Where it was hidden. That's not where the poop falls.

[John Hoffman]

Correct.

[Elizabeth Keener]

I mean, there was, like, a. There was, like, another layer of something.

[John Hoffman]

There's another layer. The poop was discussed. There was a lot. We talked about maybe if it was upside down and there was poop on the back, like. Yeah, there was a lot of discussion about the bird poop and the painting. I named it that because, you know, I think cops like excessive force. So it just felt appropriate when Mabel

[Kevin Lan]

looked up the excessive force gym. It had 1.5 stars in the review.

[John Hoffman]

Yes. Yeah, it's gross. It's really gross. And they did such a good job. I mean, they found an actual gym, but anything like that where you have just a bunch of dudes, you know, sweating all the time and beating each other up, it's kind of gnarly. And the fact that he lives there, too. I mean, I think if I were going to go to a gym and the owner, like, lived there, I might give it one and a half stars myself.

[Kevin Lan]

It says something.

[John Hoffman]

Yes. It really does.