S3 E10: Opening Night (Part 3)

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S3 E10: Opening Night (Part 3)

Date: October 11, 2023
Hosts: Maggie Bowles & Ryan Tillotson
Key Guests: John Hoffman (Showrunner/Co-creator), Ben Smith (Co-writer, Ep. 10), Editors Shelly Westerman & Peyton Koch, Costume Designer Dana Covarrubius, Production Designer Patrick Howe

Overview

This lively behind-the-scenes episode dives into the climactic events and emotional fallout of the Season 3 finale, focusing on Saz’s (Jane Lynch) shocking death and the staging of Oliver Putnam’s musical, Death Rattle Dazzle. Hosts Maggie and Ryan are joined by key creatives and fans, examining storytelling choices, production secrets, and sharing wild theories for Season 4—including who may have killed Saz. The tone throughout is witty, self-aware, and deeply affectionate towards the show’s community.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Death of Saz: Story Impacts & Hidden Clues

(00:57–11:24)

• Why Saz?

  • John Hoffman reveals the choice was meant to push the narrative and emotional depth for the trio:

    “Szasz is a truly beloved character. And, you know, it just opened up a wild array of possibilities for all of us to imagine. Like, wow, that would be very resonant for this trio in this moment...” (06:32)

  • Killing Saz had more emotional weight than past victims, bringing fresh stakes.

• Foreshadowing Saz’s Fate:

  • Saz had suspicious moments seeded in earlier episodes—e.g., picking up ominous chatter on her ham radio (02:56) and ominously wanting to discuss something “a little sensitive” with Charles in Ep. 10 (03:07).
  • Maggie wonders aloud: “Maybe whoever killed Saz has been after Charles for longer than we know.” (03:21)

• Subconscious Self-Reference?

  • The scene where it appears Charles could be the victim hints at audience fears about Steve Martin possibly retiring.

    “We’ve been in our emails, we get people talking about like, ‘Steve Martin’s going to retire, he doesn’t want to do another season...’” (07:01)

• Audience Response:

  • The hosts admit to being outsmarted by some fans:

    “Some of them are so smart.” (09:04)

  • Writers consciously try to remain “meta” but avoid repeating themselves, aiming to make each murder feel “fresh and new and impactful.” (Ben Smith, 09:24–10:58)

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2. Death Rattle Dazzle: Costuming & Set Design Magic

(12:49–20:59)

• Editing Musicals for TV:

  • Editors Shelly Westerman and Peyton Koch bemoan cutting down “Creatures of the Night,” with comfort that full versions will be available on YouTube:

    “They’re the most gorgeous things you’ve ever seen. They are stunning.” (13:51)

• Costume Design (Dana Covarrubius):

  • Dana’s “magpie” persona and lifelong love of sequins fully influences the show’s glitzy Broadway look:

    “If I see sparkles, if I see sequins—I am. It’s gotta be mine.” (14:23)

  • The costumes for the original “Death Rattle” play were rooted in 1940s Nova Scotia noir, before they were “bedazzled” for “Dazzle”:

    “We really just take the original concepts for the Death Rattle play, straight play, and just bedazzle the hell out of them.” (17:29)

• Set Design (Patrick Howe):

  • Patrick describes the challenge of creating sets for a fictional musical with no script, just writers’ wishes:

    “I didn’t have any score to listen to... Not—I mean, at the end of season two... there wasn’t even a title of a play!” (18:42)

  • The result: a whimsical, stormy Nova Scotia lighthouse environment, designed on “speculative bullets” from John Hoffman.

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3. Fan Theories & Season 4 Speculation

Accusation Station: Listeners’ Theories (21:23–37:00)

• Fan Hypotheses on Who Killed Saz:

  • Scott Bakula is a favorite—a running long-form joke about his off-screen presence as Charles’ rival:

    “Mark my words, the killer in season four will be Scott Bakula. He has a grudge against Charles Hayden Savage...” (36:17, voice memo)

  • Jan returns as a suspect—many imagine her orchestrating revenge, possibly with a new “psychotic secret admirer.”
  • Howard as secret villain—some argue his Broadway ambitions (thwarted by Charles) could make him snap:

    “Is that what drives a man like Howard to murder?” (32:12, after fan voicemail)

• Notable Theories from Reddit:

  • Emma (Lucy’s mom)’s new husband hires a hitman, hoping to benefit from Charles changing his will. (25:44)
  • A stray bullet meant for someone else hits Saz, who might have been trying to write a dying clue on the floor. (26:39)
  • Saz is only “maybe” dead—could Jane Lynch return more than expected?

• Listener Engagment:

  • Multiple shoutouts to email and Reddit contributors—props for cake photos, costume questions, and deeply detailed theorizing.

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4. Hilarious, Memorable Moments & Running Gags

• The “Scott Bakula” Bit:

  • Both hosts and John Hoffman take joy in the absurdity of Bakula’s recurring mention, stemming back to an early misunderstanding in Season 1:

    “Bacula was part of maybe the, one of the first conversations that Charles and Oliver ever had in our television show.” (05:44, John Hoffman)

  • Maggie finds out Scott Bakula’s mother’s maiden name is “Zumwinkle,” prompting a delighted digression:

    “There may be a world where we might see Scott... I went right to his mother’s maiden name was Zumwinkle.” (04:44, 05:04)

• Self-Referential/Meta Humor:

  • Hosts poke fun at their own lack of detective prowess versus eagle-eyed fans.
  • Playful, extended discussion about whether Joy (Charles’ ex) is “a witch” and could have “put Scott Bakula under a spell” to do her bidding. (22:23)

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5. Emotional Notes & Crew Appreciation

(20:59–21:23)

• Deep gratitude is expressed for the show’s creative team—editors, designers, writers, and the community itself:

  “There’s so much great stuff that we couldn’t even include... we’ve absolutely loved talking to all of the talented and hardworking crew that made Season 3... a smash hit.” (20:59, Maggie)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Szasz is a truly beloved character. And, you know, it just opened up a wild array of possibilities for all of us to imagine...”
  — John Hoffman (06:32)

• “Some of them are so smart. Hear that, listeners? We admit you are smarter than us. We are in awe. We love you.”
  — Maggie Bowles (09:06)

• “If I see sparkles, if I see sequins—I am. It’s gotta be mine.”
  — Dana Covarrubius, Costume Designer (14:23)

• “I didn’t have any score to listen to... at the end of season two… there wasn’t even a title of a play!”
  — Patrick Howe, Production Designer (18:42)

• “Is that what drives a man like Howard to murder?”
  — Maggie Bowles (32:12)

• “Mark my words, the killer in season four will be Scott Bakula.”
  — Listener voice memo (36:17)

---

Segment Timestamps

• Opening, Intro Guests & Saz Discussion: 00:02–08:15
• Theories about Saz’s Death & Scripting: 08:15–11:24
• Musical Editing, Costumes, Production: 12:49–20:59
• Listener Theory Reading & Accusation Station: 21:23–37:00
• Fan Voice Memos (Theory Time): 30:37–36:47
• Wrap-Up & Crew Appreciation: 37:00–End

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a wild mix of affectionate in-jokes, earnest appreciation for the show’s creative effort, and lively speculation from a deeply engaged fanbase. There’s palpable excitement for where the show will go in Season 4, especially with the mystery of Saz’s death and the fun of recurring gags (Scott Bakula’s shadow looms large). The behind-the-scenes content offers genuine insight, while the hosts’ banter and community engagement set a friendly, conspiratorial tone.

If you’re catching up for Season 4, this podcast delivers both laughs and clues!

Transcript

[Straw Hut Media Announcer]

Straw Hut Media.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Is there anything that you guys would like to add? Maybe we didn't ask you the right question. I'm just excited that I think. I assume Becky and I are your most anticipated guests.

[Shelly Westerman]

Yes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

On this podcast. And so I'm glad that everyone will finally get to hear from us.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. It's been. The fans have not shut up about it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. The emails that we get. Yeah, I know. Stop silencing the ideas, you guys. Let us speak. Hello and welcome to Only Murders in the Pod. I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I'm Maggie Bowles. And after the season finale last week, it felt like there was just too much good stuff to cram into two episodes. So we're back for two more and then I think we're going to take a dangle vacation.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that. Today on the show we're talking about Saz and Death Rattle Dazzle. We'll hear from showrunner and co creator John Hoffman, co writer of episode 10, Ben Smith, editors Shelley Westerman and Peyton Koch, costume designer Dana K. Rubeus, and production designer Patrick Howe.

[Maggie Bowles]

I know that sounds like a lot of names. Don't worry, we'll be here to guide you through. It's going to be great. And after that, we're going to go through some of your theories and predictions for season four, which has now been officially announced.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You also won't want to miss the episode in just a few days, which is a conversation with some of the writers from season three.

[Maggie Bowles]

We've got Ben Smith, J.J. philbin, Rob Grabowski, Mateo Borghesi, Pete Swanson, Jake Schneisel, Joshua Alan Griffith, and even John Hoffman's assistant, Brian Rosenwinkel.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, today's episode, we'll start with John Hoffman.

[Maggie Bowles]

Saz.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Who we love. And the only silver lining of Szaz's death is that now we get a whole bunch of Jane lynch next season. We hope we do. Right.

[Unidentified Guest]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

Jane, obviously is one of our most valued and most valuable players. And it felt as we were in discussions, and I'm going to give a good tip of the hat to Jess Rosenthal for this idea. And the minute I heard it, I was like, oh, boy, that's painfully good. And all of the implications that come from that as to what in heaven's name is going on and how we could and did seed a touch of something's going on potentially that's over here that Szasz is trying to mention to Charles. And it's just two mentions in episode five, she says, picking up some stuff on on my Ham radio that has people wishing it was you.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

And that. That's just a little drop in. And then. And then there's the moment in 10 where she says, I. You know, when you get a second, I got to talk to you. Something a little sensitive.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I also was thinking about how in the Ghost Story episode, those sandbags seem like they're coming right for Charles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They do. So he moves, and then the other one. And it's interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Maybe whoever killed Szaz has been after Charles for longer than we know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, that's a great point. I know.

[Maggie Bowles]

I wonder what Szaz was going to tell him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right?

[John Hoffman]

There was. Yes. There was a lot going on there. And there's also a lot of suspects that as we were realizing where we were going with the season at the very, very end, that it was fun to imagine who had a beef with Charles throughout the season. And I'll let you posit that one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know. I'm still thinking about it. And has a gun and can do that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. But it did feel like a very, like, sniper.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, of course. Exactly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Maybe it's Scott Bakula. Right. Which, by the way, watching this show, I had no idea.

[John Hoffman]

Or Jeff.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, I didn't know who Scott or Jeff Bakula were. And then on the way here, I was like, I gotta look up. His name was stuck in my head. Like, I was just saying Scott Bakula over and over. And I looked him up, and what a strange. What a strange nod. First of all, like, I saw his picture, and I was like, oh, Joy. Totally would go for this guy.

[John Hoffman]

Totally.

[Maggie Bowles]

And then also, like, the name Bakula, which is great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I thought it was a joke.

[Maggie Bowles]

Ryan thought it was a joke. And then I went to his Wikipedia page, and I found out that his mother's maiden name is Zumwinkle, which is really great.

[Ben Smith]

Wow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And what does it mean?

[Maggie Bowles]

And that his name, Bakula, is Czech and Slovak ancestry and translates literally to stick. So I don't know what you want to do with all that information, John. I was just, like, laughing hysterically on the ride.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Feels like a joke.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's just too many jokes built into Scott Bakula.

[John Hoffman]

My mind is whirling. First of all, I went right to his. His mother's maiden name was Zumwinkle.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Zoom winkle.

[John Hoffman]

Zoom winkle. Yeah. So my beloved assistant on this last season is Brian Rosenwinkle.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh.

[John Hoffman]

And. And so he got made fun of for his name a lot by Marty Short, mainly. But no. Yes. The Scott facial. That one's going to have to come up if we can. There may be a world where we might see Scott, you know, but Bacula was part of maybe the. One of the first conversations that Charles and Oliver ever had in our television show.

[Maggie Bowles]

Really?

[John Hoffman]

If you remember in season one, when the fire alarm goes off in episode one and they all gather at that restaurant to meet for the first time, Oliver's there and he mistakes Charles. He's like, listen, I know you've auditioned for me many times. And he's like, I've never auditioned for you. Charles says. He says, I'm sorry, are you not Scott Bakula? And so he's like, I am not.

[Maggie Bowles]

Wow.

[John Hoffman]

It's a very prickly entrance. But Scott Bakula gets brought up there. There's a couple of motifs that keep coming around. There's had a gobbler joke we like. We're making motifs of Hedda Gobbler jokes.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes, we noticed that one. This is the animated feature though, the turkey one.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

And Paula Abdul.

[Maggie Bowles]

No, that's so funny to put a

[John Hoffman]

bow on that one. Szasz is a truly beloved character. And, you know, it just opened up a wild array of possibilities for all of us to imagine. Like, wow, that. That would be very resonant for this trio in this moment, in big ways and small ways and new ways.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's gonna be so interesting because, you know, like, Charles is now gonna fear for his life and we get just, you know, learn about sass.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, well, and one other thing with that, you know, because there's the moment between before we realize it says where we think maybe it is Charles who got shot. Right. Like we have that moment where we're afraid that it's Charles. He's the one who was supposed to go up and get the wine. I was wondering if there's any like, self referential aspect to that because we've been in. In our emails, we get people talking about like, Steve Martin's going to retire, he doesn't want to do another season of the show or something like that. And I was wondering if there was anything self referential there of like, gotcha.

[Unidentified Guest]

I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Maybe not.

[John Hoffman]

It could be. No, I really like, you know, as.

[Ben Smith]

As.

[John Hoffman]

As you've pointed out already, the subconscious at play here with whatever. Like we're pulling from the. It has always felt like

[Unidentified Guest]

of.

[John Hoffman]

In certain ways, of the three, Charles might be more prone to have enemies out there in some way. I want to talk all about ideas for season four now. Of course. And I can't do that.

[Maggie Bowles]

No.

[John Hoffman]

But we haven't seen any one of our trio in that setting of feeling like now, is there a killer coming after me? Yeah, yeah, we haven't done that yet.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, never. Seriously. Anyways, I think.

[John Hoffman]

How quickly did you know something was going to happen? Bad. It's very quickly handled in. In a way with purpose. But did it feel like you knew the minute some Charles walked in that door something was going to happen?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, as soon. As soon as we were watching him in the silhouette, I knew as soon

[Maggie Bowles]

as he said, I'm going to go up and get this.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, really?

[Maggie Bowles]

I was like.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I was like, oh, I didn't know until the shot in the apartment and

[Maggie Bowles]

then the dark shot. I'm like, oh, for sure.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know.

[John Hoffman]

And you thought it was Charles?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes, we thought it was Charles. At first I thought it was Charles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I thought for sure. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, Good. I'm glad it worked for us anyways.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It worked for us.

[Maggie Bowles]

We're. We're not quite as good as a lot of the viewers and listeners.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Some of them are so.

[Maggie Bowles]

Some of them are so smart.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So smart. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hear that, listeners? We admit you are smarter than us. We are in awe. We love you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Definitely smarter than us.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, Ben Smith, who co wrote episode 10 with John Hoffman, had a few things to add.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What can you tell us about. About the death of Sez?

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, I'm trying to think what I can say. I think this time we had a little bit of a better sense of what we wanted to do with it. Every season there's a little bit of how do we end this? What is different about it? We can be a slightly meta show at times, but separate from that. We are self aware as a show of what we've done already, what we've done in the past, that we don't want to fall into the same stories or tropes. And so I think a challenge the further you go is what is different about each of these murders In a show that accepts the conceit that someone is going to keep dying and it happens in the building that how can it feel fresh and new and impactful? And there was the pitch in the room kind of midway through. We were always kind of wondering if someone had an idea, mention how the season would end. And someone pitched, what if Sass died? And it was, of all the people who have passed away, it's the one that we already have the most emotional investment in compared to Bunny or Ben, who we know Bonnie a little bit, but we don't have the same relationship we had yet. And so it was one that was like, oh, this is someone who's very close to our trio. It's a very interesting character, we know, and it felt different, and we felt like there were interesting opportunities with that character. You know, someone who has a long history with Charles, someone who looks like Charles, someone who has this whole rich history and life that we were excited to see and who's also, you know, with all these characters. There's someone who comes back oftentimes to flashbacks and presence. And obviously, we love working with Jane Lynch.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm very excited to see a lot of Jane lynch in, you know, if season four happens, I think it'll be so fun.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I can't wait to see what kind of weird personal life she leads.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You know, when we spoke to John about it, he had said that there were, like, these little clues that I just didn't even catch about her, like listening to, like, the police dispatch or something.

[Ben Smith]

The ham radio.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, yeah, the ham radio. Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

I mean, to that point, we did know midway through the season we'd made that decision. This is where we're gonna go. So we're like, okay, well, let's make sure sass. We always want sass in the show anyway. But, like, let's make sure she shows up in the middle and let's kind of leave a little breadcrumb that there's stuff going on in her life that is. Is catching up with her in a

[Maggie Bowles]

way, besides just dating a murderer. I mean, that's.

[Ben Smith]

That's good memory.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, it's time for a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the costumes and set design of Oliver Putnam's brand new hit musical Death Rattle Dazzle. Plus, your theories on who killed says, As the dark takes control it's enough to drive you wild. When you're a creature of the night all alone in the black Feel your sanity crack A creature of the night do your demons reside inside that you hide from the light?

[Maggie Bowles]

You Creature of the Shelly Westerman and Peyton Koch were two of the editors this season. You hopefully remember them from when we spoke to them earlier on. But episode 10 was actually really special for them. Here is Shelly.

[Shelly Westerman]

I love Creatures of the Night. Like, I love everything about it. I'm obsessed with Dana's costumes. I'm obsessed with Patrick and RichMurray, you know, the production designer and props and art direction. And it for time, the song had to get way condensed and it killed my soul. I'm like, you can't do that to these people. But it had to Be for the episode, but you will see it in all its glory. Peyton and I were able to do a cut of the whole complete number.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, nice. Yes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Music video ish versions of the full numbers on YouTube. We're very happy that people will get

[Ben Smith]

to see them in their entirety because they are.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They are beautiful.

[Ben Smith]

They're gorgeous. They did such a great job.

[Shelly Westerman]

They're the most gorgeous things you've ever seen. They are stunning.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Shelly mentioned being obsessed with Dana's costumes and we were too. Right. Bedazzled.

[Maggie Bowles]

Love them. Ryan loves a sparkle.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

You find them on his face all the time.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thanks. And we had to ask about how it all came together. Here's costume designer Dana Covarrubius.

[Maggie Bowles]

What can you tell us about costuming, an Oliver Putnam Broadway musical?

[Dana Covarrubius]

Yes. Well, it was just about my dream come true because. Because I am. And everyone who knows me in my life knows that I am a magpie. Like, I am. I am. If I see sparkles, if I see sequins, I am. It's gotta be mine. Like, I actually have racks of clothing in my stock that I call my sparkle stock. That is just stuff I've accumulated over the years that are just beaded and sequined and, you know, just. I just. I don't know what I mean. And it's since I was a kid, I have a picture of myself when I was like five or six, playing dress up and I'm just wearing like head to toe sequins. I just have always loved them. I've just been a huge sequin, you know, sparkle, sparkle girl, my whole life. So when I found out that we were going to do Death Rattle Dazzle, I got very excited and started dreaming and thinking. And it was a crazy process because we had to also design death rattle.

[Shelly Westerman]

Right.

[Dana Covarrubius]

Because you do see a few scenes with a few of the characters from that. And at one point there was some scripts that came out where you were gonna see even more of that play. And that I think ended up getting cut. But at one point you were going to see all the characters in their original death rattle costumes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So in that moment, you go out and get all those costumes.

[Dana Covarrubius]

Well, we custom made all of them because that play takes place in Nova Scotia in the 1940s. And so it's, you know, and everything needed doubles. So because of various reasons of photo, you know, actors having photo doubles or stunts that were happening, you know, stunt doubles, all that. So it was. It was a lot. And, you know, so there's the concept. The concept of death rattle was this, yeah, 1940s sort of noir esque detective story that takes place in Nova Scotia. So it's like seaside, you know, sea light, lighthouse themed play. So, you know, I did a lot of research that was very sort of like Stormy Lighthouses and, you know, 1940s noir stuff. And that was really fun.

[Maggie Bowles]

So.

[Dana Covarrubius]

But I had to, even to get to the end to the Death Rattle Dazzle, I still sort of had to fully design that play, you know what I mean? So that I knew where to go from. And then it was a really fun concept that we came up with that, you know, they don't have money to make the costumes anything, you know, more than what they were really like. They don't have a ton of money. And Oliver's already called in all these favors to make everything else in the play happen. So we thought, you know, what if we really just take the original concepts for the Death Rattle play, straight play, and just bedazzle the hell out of them.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So it wasn't a waste. You got to. And that's what we did.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dana Covarrubius]

It was so fun.

[Maggie Bowles]

So fun.

[Dana Covarrubius]

So we just. It was so fun to think of, you know, taking a really basic detective look, you know, and then like just putting sequins on it and making it and making it dazzling.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's so fun.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that.

[Dana Covarrubius]

Right? And I, you know, and it was fun. It was fun for me to play, you know, theater designer as well, because, you know, I don't. I've mostly done television, film and I studied theater in school. And so I have, you know, I started by doing theater costume design, but.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, very cool.

[Dana Covarrubius]

Haven't done that in 15 years or something, you know, I haven't done that in 15 years. So long. So it was fun to sort of stretch those creative wings again.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, like a little throwback. That's very cool.

[Dana Covarrubius]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The other impressive and beautiful part of bringing Death Rattle Dazzle to life was led by production designer Patrick Howe. Here he is.

[Patrick Howe]

So Death Rattle Dazzle takes place in a Nova in Nova Scotia, in a lighthouse.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Anything particularly challenging about putting that together,

[Patrick Howe]

every single bit of it was the most challenging, like, beyond challenging. Because designing scenery for live production is fun, but the normal process for that is that you have part of a score, you have part of a book, you might know some casting, you have all those source materials to respond to, just come up with your design ideas. But remember, this is a fictitious piece that didn't even exist. So John and his writers, they were never going to have time to really write A treatment of the play and then the play that you could turn into a musical. I didn't have any score to listen to any, you know, no lyrics, no composition, no book treatment, no dialogue, nothing. Not. I mean, at the end of season two, when we were developing that scenery, there wasn't even a title of a play. It's like, give me a title. Give me something. So that was really making stuff up. And I designed a few things for John. And honestly, the criteria for how the designing for that started happening was he said, like, well, the person needs to die. So, you know, so he started describing ways the person might be able to die. Like, maybe the person could fall off. They could be up on something high and fall off of it to their, you know, that sort of thing. So. So it was designed, like, completely random, made up things of like, okay, a hotel ballroom where he's at the top of the stairs or, you know, or whatever things. And John would go like, no, that doesn't feel right. It's like, how can you say it doesn't feel right when there's no source material to, you know. So anyway, so fortunately, the beginning of this season, he was able to describe that Patrick do a setting that's a lighthouse in Nova Scotia, you know, and he described that. He described that there would be triplets. He described a nanny was getting, you know, but it was really just bullet points of him talking through aspects of like, oh, I want to see the nanny come out of a storm cellar door. The person's going to be found dead on the rocks, you know, and stuff like that. So I did a lot of speculative designing and sketching and model building when we came up with all the scenery for the stage.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, listeners, we thought all that stuff was really cool. We hope you did too. And honestly, there's so much great stuff that we couldn't even include this season for the sake of time. But we've absolutely loved talking to all of the talented and hard working crew that made season three of Only Murders a smash hit.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And knowing that the show has a pretty good repeat rate, we might be talking to them again next time for season four.

[Maggie Bowles]

Which brings us to Theory Time, the Accusation Station. Did you all miss the Accusation Station last week? I did. It was a commuter chain, so it did not stop.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think they did. Okay, let's dive in.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, let's start with some emails. Okay, let's do it. We've got some theories about who killed Szaz.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

And let me tell you, the main guess is none other Than Scott Bakula.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Who is that? Who you think did it?

[Maggie Bowles]

I mean, I was making a joke when I said Scott Bakula, but I love the idea that Scott Bakula is, like, murderous.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that he's really become a character in the show and he's never even appeared in it.

[Maggie Bowles]

I think that's very funny. I wonder what Scott Bakula thinks. Scott Bakula. If you're listening, let us know. Send us an email. We'd love to hear from you. Some of the listeners that thought it was Scott Bakula were Alison Kay, Marty R, Mark S. And then Ashley M. Thought it was Joy or maybe someone under her spell meant to get Charles. So that could have been Scott back.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What does that mean, Joy? She's a witch.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a good question.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't understand the spell.

[Maggie Bowles]

I mean, like, you know, she's. She's clearly still mad at Charles for, you know, blowing up their relationship.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So maybe, you know, so, so wait, so, so maybe Ashley thinks that Joy has told Scott Bakula to kill Charles.

[Maggie Bowles]

My guess. Okay, Ashley M. You can clarify. But my guess would be that it would be like Joy's like, God, she's talking to her lover Scott Bakula in bed, and she's like, God, I would just be so much happier if that bastard Charles Hayden Savage was no longer around. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

If he wasn't in any of our lives.

[Maggie Bowles]

And she's like, if only someone would just kill him would deal with that for me.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And Scott's like, I'll do it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. And Scott quietly is like, I think I've got a sniper.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'll go to the roof and get a sniper and get him.

[Maggie Bowles]

Exactly. So that's possible. Another theory that seems to come up a bit is, is that maybe Jan is involved somehow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I like this theory.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. So Corin R, Laura B. They both thought maybe Jan's involved.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Also want to shout out to Kim G. For sharing her beautiful Only warriors cake with us.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Very beautiful.

[Maggie Bowles]

I hope it was as delicious as it was beautiful. And Beverly said, what if they go to LA to make the Death Rattle

[Ryan Tillotson]

Dazzle movie, which I love. And I, I, I think. I think that we're just gonna have to be in LA for a little bit.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You know, it just seems like for a tiny bit we'll be visiting la, but obviously we're still solving a crime in the Arconia, so it's like, you can't be there forever.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But it seems like we're gonna have to be in la.

[Maggie Bowles]

I mean, my big question about LA would Be the costumes. Because I feel like the costumes are so fall, winter, New York.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I want to see Oliver Putnam in like, shorts.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, right. I mean, I could definitely see Steve Martin in his flip flops.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, of course.

[Maggie Bowles]

But like, Mabel is like a sweater queen.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know, sweaters in la, they don't really go hand in hand unless they have like a cold spell. What if they come to LA and it's like a cold spell?

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's possible.

[Maggie Bowles]

And they're like, you know, like those times where it's been colder in LA than it was in New York.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. It's rare, but it happens.

[Maggie Bowles]

It happens. Okay, last few emails, Briquet thought maybe Matthew Broderick from Uma's apartment.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I guess I could see Matthew Broderick having some kind of grudge. Not enough to kill. And why from Uma's apartment?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Because they really bonded at the. The screening.

[Maggie Bowles]

They did? Yeah, they did, didn't they? He was like, you're fun.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, I love that. Maybe a Matthew Broderick, UMA love story for season four.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That'd be great.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. All good stuff. And then lastly, Alyssa from Detroit, we wanted to say we're sorry about your. Your pup, Rudy. Sweet, cute pup. And we're sorry for your loss.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, Reddit. So the moderators at the only murders Hulu subreddit gave me seven I believe, different theories and here are the top three that I have selected. This first one comes from user Carl Fr4 or Carl.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Emma's new husband hired a hitman. Emma is Lucy's mother, whom Charles dated for years.

[Maggie Bowles]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Charles changed his will while they were dating and left everything to Emma, more for Lucy's sake than hers. The new husband, through lawyer connections, has discovered that Charles never changed his will back.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love this theory because it's like completely out of left field.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, like we've never. I don't even know if we ever heard that name Emma. They. We must have. We must have. But yeah, it's. It's definitely a curveball. Okay, do you have anything to add to that?

[Maggie Bowles]

I mean, we know that Charles has some money. It would not surprise me if he had left some to Lucy.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That makes sense.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't know. I mean, it remains to be seen.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This part is weird though. Like the new husband through lawyer connections. Like, where are you?

[Ben Smith]

What's.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Anyway, okay, another theory. This is by user bv310. My weirdest theory. Neither Charles nor Saz was the intended target. Someone across the courtyard was. And the bullet passed through the window or the actual victim and hit Saz. She's attempting. This is. This is says at the very, very end, when we see her hand, she's attempting to write Jan or Tim on the floor because it was that window she saw the fight happening in. So I don't know. What do you think?

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, so the idea would be that Szasz witnessed a fight in another apartment. In another apartment. And a gun came out. A shot was fired at a completely different person.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And a stray bullet hit sass.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. That's. That's what this person is suspecting.

[Maggie Bowles]

So I do think this is an important question of, is Saz actually dead?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think she's dead.

[Maggie Bowles]

You think she's dead?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I do.

[Maggie Bowles]

And what about. Do you think it does look like she's trying to write something?

[Ryan Tillotson]

It does. It's like all you would get is, like a little curve.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

On the floor. But it does look like she's trying to write something. Anything.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't know what I wonder. And I wonder how far she got

[Ryan Tillotson]

before she really did.

[Maggie Bowles]

Before she died.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Die.

[Maggie Bowles]

Did she manage to write something, you think?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, potentially. You know, it could cut to first scene of episode one of season four. Like, we see. She wrote a whole sentence.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Maybe not that much, but, like, at least a letter.

[Maggie Bowles]

She said, tell Jan I love her.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Interesting. I wonder if even the writers know what she wrote.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's a great question.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I wonder if even the writers know she's dead.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I. I don't know. They're deciding it right now.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They are in the writer's room going over this. Right.

[Maggie Bowles]

Percolating. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. And the final theory I've selected from the only murders Hulu subreddit is from user Ibiku.

[Maggie Bowles]

I would say Ibiku.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Ibiku 2.

[Ben Smith]

Ibiku 2.

[Ryan Tillotson]

My theory is that Jan has a secret admirer who is just as psychotic as she is. This person is the one who poisoned Winnie and left the I'm watching you note on Jan's door, which we've misconstrued as a threat, but was really meant to say. I know who you are, and I'm watching your back. This person shoots Saz, either meaning to get Charles or to get Szaz to send a twisted message of love to Jan or as an act of jealousy. Saz's last undelivered message was to tell Charles that they're getting married or that she thinks Jan is seeing someone else. And then they're like, I'm imagining a parallel with Cookie, only More fatal.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't understand the parallel with the cookie.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think because that scene where he's eating the cookie is pretty intense. Or. Or are they saying. Because it's like that whole. The whole. Most of the season, we think it's one thing and it turns out to be something else.

[Maggie Bowles]

I see, I see.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So I think that that's what they're trying to say here.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, well, I love this tie back to season one, which is like, who poisoned Winnie? But didn't we decide that it was Jan that poisoned Winnie?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I think that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, but maybe Jan didn't poison Winnie, but maybe not.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And the I'm watching you note is like a creepy love note and not

[Ryan Tillotson]

a. Yeah, I mean. I mean, I like it.

[Maggie Bowles]

I like it too. I also love that Saz's news was that her and Jan were getting married.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

That feels.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Because what does she say? I have something sensitive.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's what she says. Yeah. Which sounds like she's like, we're gonna get married.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Because it's not like. Yeah, it's not like an urgent. It's sensitive.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's sensitive. I gotta tell you that I'm.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Your ex girlfriend is gonna be potentially my wife.

[Maggie Bowles]

Your murderous ex girlfriend. I'm gonna marry her.

[Unidentified Guest]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And we're gonna have a marriage through prison.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. And I can see says. Just trying to do that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

I find that very interesting. Yeah, I think that's interesting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Okay, we have three voice messages that have been sent in and thank you for sending them in because they are my favorite to include in a podcast audio.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, so one of the voice memos we got was from the. One of the mods from the only Murders subreddit, right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

That is correct.

[Maggie Bowles]

So let's hear that.

[Straw Hut Media Announcer]

Hi, Maggie. Hi, Ryan. Hi, Strawhut. My name is Hannah. I'm a moderator on the only murders in the Building subreddit. I have loved the podcast this season. Hearing all the crews interviews and insights has been really fun and so was sharing our many theories with you all. I personally don't have a big thought out theory for season four, but I have been suspicious of Howard ever since season one. And as much as I adore his character, I think it'd be really, really fun to see him as a villain. Or maybe Jan can make a comeback with some sort of big revenge plan on Charles and Saz. I'm not too sure, but I look forward to it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, well, thanks, Hannah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you, Hannah. I think Hannah should have her own podcast. I love her voice.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, well, we've been trying to get them on the podcast the whole season, so it's finally. I'm glad that. Hannah, you sent that in. What do you think?

[Maggie Bowles]

I love Howard as a possible villain, but I don't know if he's capable of murder.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I just don't think so either. It would be such a huge character change. Is it possible to believe that he could do it? I mean, I guess people think so.

[Maggie Bowles]

So people think Howard is capable, but, I mean, like, I would need to know what drives a man like Howard to murder, because, like, you know, I get that he's petty. You know, I get that he, you know, maybe not petty. I get that he's sensitive. I get that he gets angry. I get that he's defensive and maybe even a little petty, and he wants

[Ryan Tillotson]

to be a little bit in the. In the limelight. He does so. Which is, like, kind of tension. Yeah.

[Unidentified Guest]

Which.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This could be a way to get attention, maybe, or something. I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

But I don't know what would actually drive him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

To become a murderer. I don't know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Worth thinking about. All right, let's listen to our next voice memo. This is from Tara W. Okay, here we go.

[Unidentified Guest]

Who killed Saz? My question would be, is Saz dead? I'm not 100% sure that she is. Question after that is, who is the intended victim? Was it Szasz, or was it Charles? Just that question alone gives rise to so many possible theories and plot twists. Next season should be really fun. I also think the shooter is inside the apartment for reasons that I won't go into now for sake of time, but let's say for the sake of conjecture, that Charles was the intended victim. If so, my prime suspect is Howard. Think about opening night, when the actor became incapacitated from the drug cocktail, and Howard went to Oliver to tell him about it and seemed to be pretty clearly offering himself to step into the role. And then Oliver says, are you suggesting what I think you're suggesting? And the next thing we see is Oliver on stage playing the part. I think there's a scene missing there. I think in that scene, Charles talked Oliver out of allowing Howard to step on stage, and Howard was the one responsible for incapacitating the actor. Now Howard has missed his probably once in a lifetime chance to prove his mother wrong, to prove himself, to step into a leading role in a Broadway musical that then even turns out to be a hit. I think that's the last straw for Howard. Howard knows he'll never have an Opportunity like this. Again, he cannot forgive Charles for getting in the way of his one big break. That's my theory.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, so there we go. Is that reason for Howard? Is that enough for you?

[Maggie Bowles]

Wow. Okay. So that is. That's what drives Howard.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I guess.

[Maggie Bowles]

To murder. Okay. It's an interesting theory. Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

But Howard and Jonathan are an item, right? He's not just the lead actor. He's also his boyfriend, who he was crushing on super hard last season.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So hard.

[Maggie Bowles]

And so to think that Howard would intentionally incapacitate Jonathan, I mean, that would be the first step towards becoming a murderer. Maybe. But my biggest issue with that is that I don't think Oliver for a second considered letting Howard play the main. The lead role and this.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And then Tara is saying that Charles convinced Charles is somehow involved.

[Maggie Bowles]

Charles convinced Oliver not to do. Not to let him do it, but instead to do it himself.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Whereas here's what I could see. I could see Howard thinking that that's what happened, that he thinks that Oliver was like, I'm gonna let you do it. And then Charles came in and changed it all. But I don't think Oliver for even a second was ever gonna let Howard up there.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I just don't know if that's enough to want to kill somebody. But I don't know.

[Straw Hut Media Announcer]

I mean.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. That was good, though. That was good.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's a very interesting theory, and I love that I asked the question, what would drive Howard to kill? And I immediately got an answer.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You sure did.

[Maggie Bowles]

So that's pretty special.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, we've got one more. You ready?

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, last one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Mark my words, the killer in season four will be Scott Bakula. He has a grudge against Charles Hayden Savage. He wants him out of the way. His girlfriend is dating Scott Bakula right now.

[John Hoffman]

Charles is.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And, yeah, that's my theory. Okay. Another Scott Bakula.

[Maggie Bowles]

Another vote for Scott Bakula.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love it. I love how important he's become to the show without ever making a presence.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know, I would like to know if anyone's reached out to Scott Bakula for comment if he watches the show.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Like, does anybody else wonder if he does watch the show?

[Maggie Bowles]

I need to know. I need to know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Well, that was great. Okay. We've done it, Meg.

[Maggie Bowles]

We've done it. Those are our theories. Thank you so much for sending them in. Thank you so much for sending us voice memos. We love them. And we will be back in just a couple of days for the absolute final episode of this season Friday, where we will have a conversation with a bunch of the writers. A whole bunch from the season.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, it's going to be a good time.

[Maggie Bowles]

You're going to love it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You're going to love it.

[Maggie Bowles]

We'll see then.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Bye. Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohammad Samir. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt. And only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Nabor, and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk we wish you were with us this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

We.

[John Hoffman]

Sam.