S3 E10: Opening Night (Part 4)

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S3 E10: Opening Night (Part 4)

Date: October 13, 2023
Host: Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson
Featured Guests: Writers of Season 3 (Ben Smith, Pete Swanson, Mateo, Rob Chabolski, JJ Philbin, Jake Schnessel, Brian Rosen, Joshua Alan Griffith)

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Overview

This episode closes out Season 3 with a roundtable conversation featuring the writers of Only Murders in the Building. Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson bring together the creative minds behind the season to discuss their experience writing during the writers’ and actors’ strikes, the challenges of crafting a murder mystery, their favorite behind-the-scenes moments and jokes, and the creative chaos behind season 3’s biggest mysteries—including the infamous “hankies.” The tone is lively and candid, showcasing the camaraderie and humor that shape the show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Season 3’s Production During the Strikes

• The writers’ and actors’ strikes forced the podcast hosts and showrunners to get creative, bringing in members of the crew and emphasizing behind-the-scenes perspectives.
• Maggie: “Because of the writers strike and the actors strike, we did things differently…We hosted. And we spoke to all kinds of people who work behind the scenes to make a show like Only Murders true magic.” (00:24)

2. Meet the Writers & Roles

• Each writer introduces themselves, stating their role and episode contributions.
• Notable mention: Pete Swanson (script coordinator, co-writer ep. 308), JJ Philbin (wrote “The White Room”), and Brian Rosen (John Hoffman’s assistant, penned Maxine’s peer review). (02:08–03:04)

3. Working Through the Strike

• Ben Smith served as strike captain; the writers kept in touch through texting and organized Only Murders room pickets with ping-pong and watching cuts. (03:30–03:56)

4. Creating "Death Rattle Dazzle": The Meta-Musical

• An ad-hoc “bible” was developed for the fictional play, with much improvisation and humor providing its surreal logic.

• Details like “Lighthouse triplets” and “Constable Nova Scotia” were brainstormed in a session with Pasek & Paul, who appeared unfazed by the chaos.

  • JJ Philbin: “…It wasn’t quite making sense. But I think it was making us laugh how it almost made sense but didn’t quite.” (04:38)

• The musical was originally imagined to have more songs and narrative complexity; much of it was cut for clarity and feasibility. (10:15–11:46)

5. Abandoned Plotlines & Writers’ Room “What-Ifs”

• Writers reflected on wild ideas that didn’t make the cut:

  • Rehearsals in a drained swimming pool or defunct sex club in the Arconia basement (09:13)
  • A chicken chase rom-com sequence for Mabel and Tobert (13:09–14:32)
  • An entire episode conceived as almost entirely music from Loretta’s (Meryl Streep's) POV, scrapped due to production constraints (11:08–11:46)

• Rob Chabolski: “You try all the wrong things and then the only thing that’s left has to be the right one—or you’re out of time.” (08:39)

6. Keeping Secrets: The Mystery of Spoilers

• Writers discussed the power and difficulty of holding onto the killer's identity, both in personal life and on the picket line.
  • Mateo: “It does make me feel incredibly powerful because everybody is asking and I just get to sit there and be like, maybe, could be.” (06:42)
  • Ben Smith: “The story is kind of evolving constantly…even if I were to tell what felt like a secret in the moment, it might be outdated by the time it airs.” (07:20)

7. Crafting Jokes & Favorite Gags

• The comedic premise is always built in the room before anyone writes a scene. Jokes evolve as group riffs, with some emerging as personal favorites.
  • Ben Smith: “We want almost all the scenes to have a comedic premise at their core, and that’s conceived as a group...” (15:19)
  • JJ Philbin: “Normally the one that the writer goes off with is the one that, you know, made everybody laugh.” (16:20)

Favorite Moments:

• Ben talking to a cookie:
  • “Ben was talking to a cookie. Probably the day that had the hardest laughter.” — Rob Chabolski (17:18)
  • Ben Smith: “Mateo and I just went into a different headspace and we just kept pitching lines that you might say to a lover that you would also say to a cookie…” (17:50)
• Matthew Broderick gags: e.g., “Ferris Bueller may take a day off, but Matthew Broderick does not.” (19:12)
• Steve Martin’s “Now, I don’t know if you’ve ever hit a deer…” line delivery in Sits Probe (19:56)
• “Jerry Blouse hibachi” scene: “Him cooking the rat on the hibachi…even watching it just killed me.” — Jake Schnessel (20:39)
• Season 2 callback: “Howard says he’s a child’s librarian…‘Shut up.’ ‘That’s our motto.’” — Mateo (21:12)

8. Building Oliver Putnam’s Character Arc

• The writers loved writing for Martin Short, expanding Oliver’s romance, “sharper edges,” and emotional range.
  • JJ Philbin: “When we were all watching on the monitors when he was with Loretta at the piano…it’s just, oh, this is really something. Got us fired up to write those romantic scenes.” (23:33)

9. The Hankies: A Writers’ Puzzle & Collective Trauma

• The running joke—and frustration—of this season was the “hankies” as a narrative device.

  • Rob Chabolski: “That’s what we were saying all year.” (26:00)
  • Brian Rosen: “The only person who understood the hankies was Joshua. Maybe he can explain it to us right now…I don’t know. I’m probably responsible in some way for them, but I’m not taking full responsibility.” (26:03–26:14)
  • JJ Philbin: “There were…the biggest debate we had all year. Should the hankies have been monogrammed? Or generic?” (27:07)
  • Brian Rosen: “The reason there was a monogram was so we wouldn’t have to prove the absence of a hanky. In the end, there wasn’t a monogram, and that’s okay.” (27:41)

• Other hard-to-thread clues involved Ben’s notoriously “20-minutes-early” watch (29:17), and the timing of significant reveals—often revised for clarity.

10. Solving the Mystery & The Double Ben Kill

• Creative debate over when and how to kill Ben Glenroy and whether the sequence would “stutter step” or throw off viewers, but ultimately it made the narrative different and fresh. (32:10–33:39)

• The “her” referenced in season two’s finale remained an open question until the room determined Loretta’s role in season three. (34:22)

11. Writing for Meryl Streep & Cast Feedback

• Joy and disbelief at getting to write for Meryl Streep:
  • Rob Chabolski: “I can’t believe that we get to make Meryl Streep say, ‘Grey's New Orleans Family Burn Unit.’ Like, we’re just, like, writing gibberish that Meryl Streep is going to turn into art.” (35:40)
• Streep provided detailed notes, especially on pivotal emotional scenes, making the writing sharper. (36:17–37:03)
• Showrunner John Hoffman encouraged the writers: “We should take advantage of—she’s the queen of accents, so let her go nuts in this audition.” (37:07)
• Paul Rudd’s “Stinkerooni” line was a John Hoffman favorite. (37:38–37:59)

12. Writers’ Room Dynamics

• A hybrid (in-person and Zoom) writers’ room led to jokes about “overlord” voices on the screen. (38:20–38:51)
• The creative process: “A free exchange of screaming over each other, repeating other people’s pitches, but louder so we get credit for them.” — Rob Chabolski (39:22)

13. Saz Pataki’s Death & Inspiration

• The name “Saz” comes from Mateo’s mother.
• Jane Lynch’s Saz was a writers’ favorite to watch on set, especially her stunt double’s somersault. (40:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You try all the wrong things and then the only thing left has to be the right one—or you’re out of time.” — Rob Chabolski (08:39)
• “It does make me feel incredibly powerful…everybody is asking and I just get to sit there and be like, maybe, could be.” — Mateo (06:42)
• “Mateo and I just went into a different headspace…and we just kept pitching lines you might say to a lover that you would also say to a cookie.” — Ben Smith (17:50)
• “The only person who understood the hankies was Joshua. Maybe he can explain it to us…” — JJ Philbin (26:03)
• “I’m not taking full responsibility [for the hankies]. Never.” — Brian Rosen (26:14)
• “We’re just, like, writing gibberish that Meryl Streep is going to turn into, like, art.” — Rob Chabolski (35:40)
• “We want almost all the scenes to have a comedic premise at their core, and that’s conceived as a group.” — Ben Smith (15:19)
• “Howard says he’s a child’s librarian, Jonathan says ‘shut up,’ and Howard says, ‘that’s our motto.’” — Mateo (21:12)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Writers’ Introductions: 02:08–03:04
• Strike Stories & Room Dynamics: 03:30–03:56
• Death Rattle Dazzle Creation: 04:10–06:18
• Keeping Secrets & Spoilers: 06:18–07:53
• Abandoned Plotlines & Musical Evolution: 08:15–13:08
• Chicken Gag for Mabel & Tobert: 13:09–14:32
• How Jokes Are Built: 15:12–16:20
• Favorite Writers’ Room Jokes: 17:18–22:03
• Expanding Oliver Putnam’s Arc: 23:29–24:58
• The “Hankies” Trauma Explained: 25:58–28:19
• Solving Narrative Puzzles (Watches, Timings): 29:12–29:54
• Adapting Season 2’s Finale: 31:36–34:22
• Writing for Meryl Streep: 35:08–37:59
• Writers’ Room Structure & Creative Process: 38:20–40:15
• The Origin of “Saz” and Jane Lynch Moments: 40:20–41:11

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Tone & Style

The episode is unfiltered, behind-the-scenes, and often very funny. The writers riff openly and recall moments of confusion, joy, and collective pain, especially around tricky plotting moments or hilarious creative dead-ends. The storytelling is breezy but peppered with professional insight. Fans get a strong sense of both the writers’ camaraderie and the near-chaos of building a show as elaborate (and witty) as Only Murders.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for superfans and aspiring writers, revealing the chaotic, hilarious, and sometimes painful process behind one of TV’s cleverest mysteries. The genuine affection between the writers and their giddy disbelief at collaborating with megastars like Meryl Streep make the dialogue both insightful and endearing.

Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut Media.

[Pete Swanson]

Am I the first one here?

[Ryan Tillotson]

You're very punctual. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Is that embarrassing?

[Pete Swanson]

It's like a little. I don't know why it's a little embarrassing.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hello and welcome to Only Murders in the Pod. I am Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And it has been quite a wild ride this season because of the writers strike and the actors strike, we did things differently. First of all, we hosted.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That was new.

[Maggie Bowles]

And second of all, we spoke to all kinds of people who work behind the scenes to make a show like Only Murders. True magic.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We spoke to the directors of every single episode.

[Maggie Bowles]

Pretty impressive.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. We spoke to first ads, editors, costume designer, production designer, you name it, we talked to them. But we really love talking to the writers. And so with the resolution of the strike coming just as the season drew to a close, we had to see who from the amazing writers room, we could get together to talk about the season.

[Maggie Bowles]

So today we're sharing our conversation with those writers. We'll talk about keeping secrets when you know the killer's identity in a hit TV show. We'll talk about some of the plot lines and gags that never made it to screen. And we'll talk about the collective trauma that is the hankies.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Just a warning. There's a lot of people in the room for this episode. It might get a little confusing at times, but. But we'll have them introduce themselves at the top so you can hear everyone's voices and hopefully it makes sense.

[Maggie Bowles]

Except for Joshua Alan Griffith, who joined a little bit late in the conversation. So he's the one voice without an introduction. He co wrote episode two with Ben Smith.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All right, let's get into it.

[Maggie Bowles]

People are. People are trickling in. This is very exciting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hi, I'm Ryan.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hello.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It feels like this is what you guys see when you're writing.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. We're in it. We're in the room. We made it, Mag.

[Maggie Bowles]

We did it. We did it.

[Rob Chabolski]

Yeah.

[JJ Philbin]

Welcome.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thrilling.

[Pete Swanson]

Hi, I'm Pete Swanson. I was the script coordinator and co writer of episode 308.

[Jake Schnessel]

I'm Jake Schnessel. I'm a staff writer. I was a Co writer of 307. Co writer with Ben Philippe.

[JJ Philbin]

I'm JJ Philbin. I'm a writer on the staff. I wrote the White Room.

[Mateo]

This is Mateo. And this is.

[Rob Chabolski]

I'm Rob Chabolski.

[Ben Smith]

Hi.

[Rob Chabolski]

We're the co writers of episode three of three, the third episode.

[JJ Philbin]

What was it called?

[Rob Chabolski]

Grab your IP.

[Ben Smith]

I'm Ben Smith. I'm one of the writers and I co wrote 302 and 310.

[Rob Chabolski]

I am Brian. I'm not a writer but I am John Hoffman's assistant.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh yes, Rosen.

[JJ Philbin]

We heard.

[Maggie Bowles]

We heard about that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I've been emailing you, Brian. Yeah.

[Pete Swanson]

He is the author behind the Maxine's peer review that cannot go unmentioned.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Really good to know.

[Pete Swanson]

Vicious Takedown was written by Brian Rosen.

[Maggie Bowles]

Wooden as a lighthouse. That was you just gives you a

[JJ Philbin]

little taste of what Ryan, you know, if you get on his bad side, it's coming your way.

[Maggie Bowles]

I can see that. Yeah. Wow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'll make keep my emails pleasant. Do have. Do you guys. Were you talking a lot during. During the whole strike? Were you communicating at all?

[Pete Swanson]

Ben was a strike captain.

[Ben Smith]

He has to talk.

[JJ Philbin]

He was our strike captain. So you know, without him we would have fallen apart. But yeah, there was some, there was some texting, some emailing, some picketing.

[Maggie Bowles]

Good.

[Ben Smith]

Of course we had a couple only murders room pickets. So we. Yeah. On the Paramount lot and we gathered

[JJ Philbin]

for ping pong and watching some of the cuts and that was fun. It's great to see each other.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow. Okay. So we. I asked this question to John. We also asked it to Pasek and Paul and I think I even asked it to Ben what kind of material was written Because Pasek and Paul said there was a Bible but for death rattle dazzle. What did you give them?

[JJ Philbin]

I remember the day that they came into the room and we sat there and talked about like what is this musical? So that they knew what to go off and write and I mean please someone jump in because I don't remember how we got to Lighthouse triplets. The Constable Nova Scotia. There were so many details that got thrown out during that work session and had been thrown out in the weeks leading up to it.

[Maggie Bowles]

But.

[JJ Philbin]

But it really, as we were talking about it, it wasn't quite making sense. But I think it was making us laugh how it almost made sense but didn't quite. So we were sort of leaning into how insane it all was.

[Jake Schnessel]

Yeah, I remember having that same feeling that you're describing of we're kind of cobbling these pieces together and makes a little bit of sense. But as they were sitting in the room, Pasc and Paul, it seemed like everything was being thrown at them and it made perfect sense to them or at least they were acting as if it did and they seemed to just get it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Were they like taking like detailed notes or something? They said they had like a Bible and I'm just so Confused, like what?

[Ben Smith]

I think. I think the detailed notes, that credit goes to Pete and Sienna documented all the things that we were saying throughout and the premise coming up with and kind of putting together a somewhat coherent plot and synopsis and character description of the play.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right.

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah. And I have to give credit to Sienna because she was the one that went through all those notes and really made. Made something sensible out of it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, are there any, like, plot details from Deathrattle Dazzle that maybe you don't see in the show but that, like, you know, secretly is in there?

[Mateo]

Oh, my God, I don't think so.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay. It's all on the table.

[Mateo]

Charles's character was going to be a ghost for Martin, and that might still be true, but I don't know.

[Jake Schnessel]

Somewhere there's a four hour director's cut of Deathrattle.

[Maggie Bowles]

Honestly, I'd love to see it. Maybe not the four hour version, but like the 20 minute. I'd go longer. I'd go like a 90 minute, you know?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Is it hard for you to keep secrets in this mystery, like to friends, to family, or not? Maybe because you're speaking to each other about it all the time. I'm curious if. If you ever slip.

[Maggie Bowles]

You sound like you've been hired by John Hoffman to try to weed out the moles. Ryan, I don't trust him anymore.

[Ryan Tillotson]

He didn't ask me to ask you.

[Mateo]

I've never slipped. But it does make me feel incredibly powerful because everybody is asking and I just get to sit there and be like, maybe, could be. That doesn't happen on other sitcoms where everybody knows that the character slipped on

[Ben Smith]

a banana or whatever.

[Mateo]

I assume that's what happens on other sitcoms. I don't really watch.

[Ben Smith]

I feel like on the. While the show is airing, a lot of people will come up to me and like, writers come up on the picket lines and they've seen the most recent episode and they have theories and they'll say their theories. And then I'll ask them, do you want me to respond? And they say no. Like they.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, it's.

[Ben Smith]

They don't want me to slip up, but I do. I. And it is great to have the room to talk to you about all these things, but I'll go home and I'll talk to my fiance about it, and then it'll air a couple, like what we came up with in the room that day. And then it'll air a month, two months later, whatever, half a year later. And she's like, well, that's not what you said, and there's something about like. Not that I lied, but the story is kind of evolving constantly. So I feel like even if I were to tell what something felt like a secret in the moment may be outdated by the time it airs.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Maggie Bowles]

Are there any like. Or let's say, were there any times during season three where you started down maybe like a narrative path or like started with aspect of the story that it turned out as you got further down that this is just not going to work and you had to like, abandon it? Were there any things like that?

[Rob Chabolski]

Once or twice.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Can you share any? That sounds like there's a lot.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Rob Chabolski]

I don't know. That's just part of the process. You know, I. I think of a line from season one that maybe Ben Smith wrote about carving. Is it. Is it an elephant? What is it?

[Ben Smith]

What is.

[Rob Chabolski]

What is the carving? And then you're just everything that isn't the thing you're carving. You know the thing I'm talking about. Yeah. Try all the wrong things and then the only thing that's left has to be the right one or you're out of time. One of two options, but that's. That's generally how choices are made sometimes.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that obviously, like, yeah, that happens, but maybe any that, like, you are nostalgic for, that you miss that you wish you could have found a place to include, or even if, like, you know, like, it could have never worked, but that would have been a great thing.

[Brian Rosen]

The swimming pool.

[Rob Chabolski]

There have been talks about, you know, where were they going to be rehearsing this new show in the building. And before we settled on Oliver's apartment, one thing that we talked about was maybe the Arconia has a swimming pool that just either is in use or has been drained a long time ago and nobody uses it and they kind of forgot about it. And maybe they were like, inside this pool. Similar pitch, but for a sex club that was also defunct, like a 70s swingers club. And those were, I think, deemed to be bad, dumb and expensive.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Those are the notes you got.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[JJ Philbin]

There were some scenes that we wrote where Oliver and Charles were having all of their discussions about the show in like, hollowed out empty jacuzzis in the basement. Arconia. And for some reason we went away from that, you know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[JJ Philbin]

I don't know why they survived.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, it is funny.

[Ben Smith]

We also conceived, I think initially on like seven songs for the musical and then which we kind of whittled down to four. And I Can't now remember what some of the ideas for those other songs were, but initially, the conception for episode eight. Sits robe. I don't know if you want to say, Peter.

[Pete Swanson]

No, go ahead, go ahead.

[Ben Smith]

The initial idea John had was that that episode was entirely them rehearsing. And so there was, like, maybe little snippets of dialogue, but most of the episode was the group in a circle singing. And that we would have set up a way such that we could do a full narrative through song. And so that was kind of like we knew was coming and building towards it. And by the time we got there, we kind of realized that was not feasible or, like, the story wanted full scenes and other stuff to the side. But for a while, that had been our goal or kind of our.

[JJ Philbin]

And the other thing about that episode was that it was the. It was supposed to be. Or our original conception of it was just music. And also from Meryl's point of view, that you were kind of traveling with her. And again, Pete, you can speak to this more than me, but that Loretta kind of traveling through Sitz Probe, seeing things, hearing things leading up to this reveal about, you know, that Dickie was her son, actually, and sort of the. Letting the music help build to that reveal.

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah, it was almost like a. Like a Birdman knockoff a little bit. We were having a lot of fun. And that was the first draft we turned in. And then it just became unproducible because you can't book Meryl for that much time. And I remember when we were trying to work it out, actually, Joshua, I think, was the one who had the idea we had always been building the episode to be that we revealed the Dickie sonship at the end. And Joshua was like, why don't we just put it up top and kind of drop the bomb and then have the audience be ahead of it? And I think that was what really unlocked that episode.

[Ryan Tillotson]

When you say that you had originally come up with seven songs, so does that mean the four that are. That are in there? You kind of had a general idea for those songs, and then they were written.

[Ben Smith]

Those are the only four songs that were ever written. I think when we were trying to come up with the musical, we're like, steve will have a song, Mara will have a song. We'll riff on Creatures the Nights. That's the thing. We heard an ensemble number, and credit goes to, like, the people in the room who are, like, much more Broadway literate, but they kind of spoke to kind of the not tropes, but like the standards types of songs. And we kind of came up with what all of those would be. And then we whittled it down to what we thought the four most essential. Okay, wait, Joshua, you should. You should tell the chicken story.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean.

[Brian Rosen]

Yeah, I'm trying to remember it. I don't even really remember it. It was something like. So in the. In episode five, which is the rom com sort of Nora Ephron, Love Leonard to New York episode, there were all of these different variations on relationship dating vignettes that we were pitching for Tubbert and Selena. And one of the, like, the little fun things that happened in their story at one point was that they were walking down the street. And this was. I think this was pitched as like a very New York thing, which I. I mean, I'm not from New York, and so I couldn't say, but it just seemed like we were calling everything a New York thing. That was weird. And one of the things that was pitched that a chicken runs by, I think, and they're like, that's bizarre. And then moments later, a little girl is. They walk past a little girl on the street who's crying, and they're like, what's wrong? And she's like, I lost my chicken. And they're like, oh, I think we saw it. And so they go and they run. And there's like all of these gags where they're on, like, a fire escape trying to get the chicken or something. I might be making a part of that, but, like, there were, like, a lot of.

[Ben Smith]

What.

[Brian Rosen]

What crazy thing could happen on a date that would bring Mabel and Topper together in an unexpected way? And that one lasted a while until it was cut for some reason.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The chicken would do it. That would do it for you. You would like that to chase a chicken?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. Sign me up.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about favorite jokes from the season and the ever evolving character. Character that is Oliver Putnam. I'd like to talk about jokes. I'm really curious, like, how. How some of these gags, like, are. Are. Are kind of curated and put together.

[Ben Smith]

I can go quick and then people can chime in. If not someone. I feel like I'm bogarting the mic.

[Rob Chabolski]

Go, Ben, go.

[Ben Smith]

Okay, great. In many cases, the jokes, we've been coming up with them as a group throughout, you know, even though one person goes to write the episode, the first draft of the episode, they're going off to write based on Weeks of conversation that we've all had as a group. And so during that time, as we're talking through scenes, people will randomly throw out jokes and riff and stuff like that. And those notes are being taken. So there's kind of a record of these jokes. And then certainly when you're off on script, there's a level of discovery and you're finding your own things. But I'd say there are, like, two types of comedy. One is, like, actual setup, punchline type jokes that some are pitched in the room and some you're finding on your own. But also, like, we want almost all the scenes to have a comedic premise at their core, and that's conceived as a group when we're talking through. Like, you won't leave to write a scene without already knowing where the comedy is probably coming for. And that's separate than just, like a joke that a character says.

[JJ Philbin]

Well, when we're, like, coming up with an episode, we talk about 100 different variations on how that story could go. And normally the one that the writer goes off with is the one that, you know, made everybody laugh. And we kind of could see how it would be funny. And, like, you know, there's a lot of possibility in whatever the scene is that people, you know, were most excited about. So I think that, like Ben said, I mean, we are most, like, mostly this story gets kind of blessed when we know why and how it's funny, and then everybody jumps in. You know, sometimes when the draft comes in and is like, oh, we could do this and we could do this and we could do this and adds to it. And normally with everybody brain in it, it just gets better and better.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Were there any favorites this season or maybe any.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, favorite jokes, favorite gags, favorite lines?

[Rob Chabolski]

It was decided or discovered that Ben was talking to a cookie. Probably the day that had the hardest laughter. Yeah, for sure.

[JJ Philbin]

Ben Smith, like, often couldn't take himself because he would just evolve into laughter about the cookie.

[Brian Rosen]

I think he threw up from it. It seemed like he was laughing so hard that he excused himself. I'm pretty sure he threw up.

[JJ Philbin]

It was very cute.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What was so funny about it, Ben?

[Ben Smith]

Well, the way it's ultimately portrayed is quite tragic, so it's weird to talk about it now is comedic, but I think if someone remembers who's the one who pitched that, he's talking to a cookie. Please speak up so we can give them proper credit. But I remember it being so funny and we're trying to set up that they're seducing someone. Or that. That we're setting up a love interest. And I don't want to take all the credit for losing my mind here. Mateo also, I feel like Matteo and I just went into a different headspace and we just kept pitching lines that you might say to a lover that you would also say to a cookie. And then everyone else, to their great patience, was trying to continue to work on the actual story. And he and I would just be giggling and kind of whispering lines very loudly to each other. I don't know, it just, it was very funny to me. And then it became very tragic. We don't.

[Mateo]

I'm the Schmackery's cookie. Like the previous week or something. Like sometimes you write what you know. Yeah, we're like basically like babies. We have no cookie in front of us. And suddenly it was in the show.

[Ben Smith]

I'll throw out a favorite joke and this credit, I'm throwing it down to Robin Mateo, who. It was all a group effort, but I feel like they really deserve credit for some of the Matthew Broderick stuff. That absolutely killed me.

[Rob Chabolski]

And actually, I think Elaine had the line of Ferris Bueller may take a day off, but Matthew Brown. Matthew Broderick does not. But I think Mateo had the. When Broderick is giving his speech about how in character he gets and he's thinking about what a constable of that era, you know, New York City in The, you know, 1900s, Russians, horse drawn carriages, that kind of thing. I think that was like a very funny.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I did like in 10, when he sees the. With Steve Martin run across, he's like, that is how a Nova Scotian constable would run.

[Maggie Bowles]

Matthew Broderick's stamp of approval, I guess.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, he approved of that run.

[Brian Rosen]

There's a line in Sits Probe. I texted Pete when I was watching it because I could not stop laughing. It's said once and then in a flashback it's said again. And it's not even. I don't even. I don't remember who wrote it and I don't remember reading in any of the scripts. But it's when Marty just goes, now, I don't know if you've ever hit a deer. I don't know why I think it's so funny, but it's just, it's partially the line. It's partially his, like, deliveries. So, so perfect.

[Ben Smith]

So whoever wrote that, that's a J.J. philbin, I think.

[JJ Philbin]

I feel like you were there, Ben. I. I don't really remember. That was a haze, hazy day. But yeah, his delivery was incredible.

[Jake Schnessel]

And throw out there in. In six. I don't know if it was. I mean, Madeline George wrote the episode, but I don't know who came up with it. Mateo, I, for some reason think like you think maybe you did Jerry Blouse hibachi. And him cooking the rat on the hibachi. And the. And specifically the line as Oliver leaves when he says, go home. Go home, dear husband. And he says, and eat his cooking. And that even watching it just killed me.

[Rob Chabolski]

Again, I don't think that's me. I don't know. Oh, man. Do you like that?

[Mateo]

Madeline George? The great Madeline George. She has a joke that's so good, but it's from season two, and so that's my pick. That's. How good is it?

[Ben Smith]

It is.

[Mateo]

It counts as the best joke in season three as well. The one that's, like, about like, Howard says he's a child's librarian, and Jonathan says, shut up. And Howard says, that's our motto.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I remember that one. That's very good.

[JJ Philbin]

Another Madeline George joke. While we're on the topic in Ghostlight, when Howard is doing his monologue, it's such a small joke, but for some reason, it's always really made me laugh when he's talking about how he always wanted to be an actor, but he was told that his stage voice was matronly and shrill. She really got me. It was like in the writer's draft. I loved it every time.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Chabolski]

I want to.

[Mateo]

Actually.

[Rob Chabolski]

I'm remembering one thing from visiting the set when we were shooting episode four, which is JJ's episode, and we were watching. There were a few of us happen to be there that day. And we were sitting behind the monitors watching Steve do the white room section where he's doing this slow motion kind of movement through the room, and that's how he did it. And I really remember thinking, like, this is one of the funniest things I've ever seen Steve Martin do. And I think it's because JJ wrote it. And it was just such a delight. Like, being there was, like, one of those really special moments working on this. I remember hanging around waiting to hear Marty do Mateo's line of, you're your own Satan.

[Mateo]

You were like, that was at the end of a really long day.

[Rob Chabolski]

But you just knew that Martin Short was gonna fully commit to that joke.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Oh, you know what? Actually, one more thing before it's like, Martin Short. I mean, we heard that season three was gonna be Oliver's season in the way that he gets a Lot more. It was just like, really? There was, like, so much great stuff for Martin Short. I mean, obviously for everybody, and everybody's great, blah, blah, blah. But this season, Martin Short, his love interest, his, like, sharper edges, his, like, character arc, I just thought was, like, so satisfying. I don't know if you guys have anything to say about.

[Ryan Tillotson]

About the writing, these various dimensions of Martin, of Oliver.

[JJ Philbin]

I remember when we were all watching on the monitors when he was with Loretta at the piano, and was it episode three or episode one? Either way, I just remember we were all like, oh. Oh, this is exciting. Oh, my goodness, this is really something. And we were all so excited about it, and it, you know, got us fired up to write those. Those romantic scenes between the two of them.

[Jake Schnessel]

Yeah, he was so charming. There's nothing he can't do.

[Pete Swanson]

He's like.

[Jake Schnessel]

He's so charming and he's so funny.

[Rob Chabolski]

And, yeah, I was.

[Brian Rosen]

I was on set the day that they were shooting the scene from episode one where Meryl and Marty are sitting at the piano, and Meryl's playing a little song. Marty comes over, sits down next to her. They sing together. They go right into, like, a romantic scene. It's just like this really dynamic scene. And after they rehearsed it and then they did the first take, we're like, oh, my God, that was incredible. They just nailed in the first try. And Marty came over to Video Village and came up to the chair where I sitting. He was like.

[Rob Chabolski]

I was told she was good.

[Brian Rosen]

And he's just like. He's always making those. He's, like, the most fun person to be around on set. He's always coming over and, like, sitting on your lap and teasing you, and it's just the best to be around.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, gosh.

[Maggie Bowles]

Sitting on your lap, huh? That's great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm curious about, like, difficult threads to connect for this story. You obviously have a lot to connect in a mystery. Were there any that were particularly challenging? The hankies? What does that mean?

[Maggie Bowles]

All right. At that point in the conversation, Joshua Allen Griffith typed the word hankies into the chat. So after the break, we will talk about the collective trauma in the writers room. That was the hankies plus the murder of Saz Pataky. Just before the break, Joshua Allen Griffith had typed the word hankies into the chat in response to Ryan's question about challenging threats.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hankies. What does that mean?

[Rob Chabolski]

That's what we were saying all year.

[JJ Philbin]

The only person who understood the hankies was Joshua. Maybe he can explain it to us right now. I Really? I struggled with. With hankies. But, Joshua, if I start.

[Brian Rosen]

If I start bleeding from my eyes, it's because I've already talked about hankies so much. I don't know. I. I don't know what to say. I know I'm probably responsible in some way for them, but I'm not taking full responsibility. Never.

[Mateo]

When you came in with the hankies, everybody was excited for the hankies. We were like, yes, that's exactly what you.

[Rob Chabolski]

What we need.

[Mateo]

And then we started thinking about, like, how do you prove that someone doesn't have a hanky? And then what was like, maybe that's philosophically impossible.

[Brian Rosen]

Mateo, are.

[Rob Chabolski]

Try.

[Brian Rosen]

Are you.

[Rob Chabolski]

Are you.

[Brian Rosen]

Are you trying. Where are you right now? Because I'm gonna drive over there right now,

[Mateo]

explain the hankies.

[Brian Rosen]

I'm out of here.

[JJ Philbin]

The hanky served a really.

[Ben Smith]

Like.

[JJ Philbin]

It had to. It had to exist. It served a really good purpose. We. There were, like, the biggest debate we had all year, and I still don't know where I stand on it, but I usually defer to. Joshua was right. Was. Should the hankies have been monogrammed, or should they have been, like, generic hankies? Would it have been better or worse to know whose hanky belonged to who? And those were usually the moments where I was like, I don't know.

[Brian Rosen]

The reason that the initial hanky pitch had a hankie with a monogram on it was so that. I can't believe I'm talking about this again. The reason that there was a monogram on it was so that we wouldn't have to prove the absence of a hanky. In the end, there wasn't a monogram, and that's okay.

[Mateo]

So pissed.

[Rob Chabolski]

Like a Jacob's Ladder scenario right now, where it turns out that he died in the room, and these are his last moments still re explaining the hanky pitch to himself.

[Mateo]

That's right.

[Ryan Tillotson]

He's really hating it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. There's a lot of pain.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I did really like Charles's attempt to get all the hankies. I thought that was really entertaining.

[Maggie Bowles]

And the hanky ends up being the thing that solves the murder. Right.

[Ben Smith]

I think certainly all of our collective heads hurt at points during the season. You know, navigating a bunch of clues, bunch of suspects, setting stuff down for an episode or two and coming back. But I did feel like watching the season. I was like, oh, it made sense to me, which was good.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Mateo]

A real leader. Was Ben's time of death all day of being like, oh, maybe his watch is on the central time zone. And then we're like, wait, would that mean that, like. Like, what time does it make it in real life? The watch is. Then we just pass out in pain for a while.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Is that why you made it 20 minutes? Always said his watch 20 minutes early.

[JJ Philbin]

There was a whole night where we felt like geniuses because we thought that, you know, a cool detail could be that Ben set his clock to St. Louis time, but it was very late at night. And so we all went home that night feeling really smart. And Ben Smith had realized at some point that. That it was actually in the wrong direction if it was on st. But he didn't have the heart to tell us.

[Jake Schnessel]

You might have told us over a text. And then everyone just kind of collectively died.

[JJ Philbin]

We were like, well, now what? Now what do we do? And then it turned out it was just. It sets 20 minutes ahead or whatever it was so that he's fashionably late early. I don't remember where we landed.

[Maggie Bowles]

Fashionably late.

[Mateo]

My pitch was to make Ben born in Reykjavik.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Smart.

[Maggie Bowles]

That would have worked too.

[Rob Chabolski]

You know, there are other things that you. It's just part of the nature of writing a show like this that we might debate for a while on and off that I think probably viewers don't even question. And one of those was, should we say up front that Dickie is Ben's brother? That was something I seem to remember kicking around a while, like, do we want to make that a discovery that Mabel or somebody makes after Ben dies? And I can't remember why we settled on what we did, but I think it plays totally fine that you know at the beginning that he's his brother.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah. I do think there were a lot of things that there wasn't a difficulty with us knowing the story, but conversations about deciding when and how to unspool it. Even, like, there'd been a version where the reveal that Dickie had covered up the talks report was like the end of an episode. And that was like our big throw in episode six, I want to say later, became a thing you learn in conversation at the top of nine. So there are certain story points that we had collective agreement on. And then as we broke story, we kind of move when our characters and audience know those things. So those are ongoing talks.

[Maggie Bowles]

Can you tell us about, like, the decision? So, you know, we get introduced to Ben and the collapse on stage in the end of season two. And then, you know, last time when we talked to Ben, you kind of explained that that's kind of. You have the whole world open to you after that, except for these, like, specific details that. That the audience has already seen. Can you tell us about, like, the. The decision to kill him again inside the building and also like other things that from that season finale in season two that you used for inspiration.

[Mateo]

I know my. My writing partner is too shy and humble to say that it was. But it was something that Rob Terbowski

[Rob Chabolski]

him

[Mateo]

just as a. As a way to make the kind of mystery a little different, I think just to have it just to keep people on their toes about, like, coming into the season with the expectation of this body. Like, this is. This is the murder. This is what we're investigating.

[Rob Chabolski]

We already know.

[Mateo]

Would you like to speak more about how you came to that brilliant

[Rob Chabolski]

eloquence accurately? And even then, though, it wasn't, like, totally clear that it would stick because there was a way. There was some debate about does this feel like a stutter step a little. For me, it came out of just wanting to do something different, you know, wanting to word the people who watch the show for two seasons up to this point and have seen it start a particular way and to say, we know that you're on to us and we're going to do something a little different this time.

[Mateo]

It did take us a second to decide, like, whether he should come back. Like, how long does he come back for? When is the second death? I think sometimes we were thinking, oh, maybe it's like it happens in a different episode or it happens later even. So we were playing around with that for a bit.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Got it. I mean, at the end of season two, it does set up some stuff about the play. Like, we do see a lighthouse, right? We see the lighthouse in season two, and we see he's wearing a detective outfit. We don't see a lighthouse. Joshua is saying, no, no, the lighthouse was.

[Brian Rosen]

All of the lighthouse stuff came in the season three room, if I remember correctly. But Charles and Ben are both dressed in sort of noir ish overcoats that felt like we could take them in a number of directions. And when we started thinking about this crazy Nova Scotian baby in a lighthouse that won't stop crying and that whole thing, I think that we were like, oh, well, we could spin it in that direction and put a lighthouse in it.

[Ben Smith]

I think the biggest, final, other final detail from the end of the 210 is the stay away from her. I know what you did. And I think at the time there were ideas for who her was and someone that, like, John had in mind for, but it was an open conversation when the room gathered. Because, you know, at that time, we didn't know the Meryl Loretta character yet. We didn't know who the rest of the cast would be of this musical. So there was. There was, like, contingent plans for who they would. Who that her is and what that would be a reference to. But it was kind of a big point of discussion throughout the season for us in the room of clarifying what was building to that moment.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'd be curious to hear more about, like, writing for Meryl Streep as a room. Was there any times maybe when you were writing and you were like, we can't make Meryl Streep say that. Or like, yeah, we gotta make Meryl Streep say that, you know? Or, like. I mean, was there any, like, complex. I don't know. I would think I would be anxious.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Overthinking it, maybe.

[Maggie Bowles]

Overthinking. Yeah. And also excited.

[Ben Smith]

I think you're right to note that we do give good material to some people and bad material to other actors. So that's good that you picked up on that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Rob Chabolski]

Marty's constantly saying to us, write funnier things for me than you do for Steve. It was a fun. I don't remember any feeling of, like, fear as much as, like, a kind of giddy delight and disbelief. Like, I can't believe that we get to make Meryl Streep say, Gray's New Orleans Family burn unit or something. Like, we're just, like, writing gibberish that Meryl Streep is going to turn into, like, art. It was that, I think, was the highlight of the whole experience.

[Pete Swanson]

Talking about favorite jokes. I don't even know if it was a joke, but her delivery was incredible. When she says, and I have limp. And she was just, like, so pumped about that. She brought so much that character, and she was very invested. I will say, for my episode for Sids Pro, Sienna's my episode there was after the table read, the scene with her and Dickie by the stairs. She wasn't connecting with it.

[Rob Chabolski]

And.

[Pete Swanson]

And she wrote us an email about it and was just feeling like if that's the moment where she's deciding that he definitely did it and she's probably going to take the fall for him, that it really needs to be, like, a convincing moment. So that was. I mean, I don't know if that was a criticism of our writing or just, you know, her being really dialed into the character, but it was cool to get the chance to like, deepen that and see her engage with it in that way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, that kind of feedback is incredible.

[Pete Swanson]

Made the scene better.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's amazing.

[Jake Schnessel]

In 301 as well.

[Ben Smith]

Like, there is.

[Jake Schnessel]

I mean, I remember. I think John coming in specifically saying we should take advantage of.

[Ben Smith]

I mean, she's like.

[Jake Schnessel]

She's the queen of accents, so let's let her go go nuts in this audition. And then, you know, like, having fun with that. And then I can definitely. I think I can confidently attribute this joke to JJ being able to then have, you know, Paul Rudd turn and call Meryl Streep as stinkerooni.

[JJ Philbin]

I think stinkerooni is like, a John Hoffman word that he says so often that it permeated all of our consciousness and then just became, you know, every. I think stinker was in a lot of episodes throughout the year.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I feel like I heard Paul Rudd say that a few times.

[JJ Philbin]

Well, John would pitch that really seriously. He'd be like, well, when he thinks that, you know, the nanny is making the play a stinkeroonie, which is funny the way that that was just his term for, like, not being good at the table read.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You guys are all meeting in person now. Is that right? This season, were you all in person?

[JJ Philbin]

Some of the writing staff was in New York, and so there was always a collection of people on Zoom and some people in person in the room. So it was a hybrid.

[Mateo]

They have ads because they're on a big TV screen. They look like there are, like, overlords.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I was gonna say. I would. I would think they would have, like, less. They would be, like, feel like they're less able to, like, not contributing as much because they're on these. But I guess if they're huge, then. Then it's not the same.

[Rob Chabolski]

The mighty voice.

[Pete Swanson]

God.

[Mateo]

So we have.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow. Okay. But what I was gonna ask is a lot of ideas going in at once. Does someone kind of have the floor and people listen?

[Mateo]

I try not to listen.

[Rob Chabolski]

Yeah, I guess so. What.

[Mateo]

What are you laughing at? We try to be, you know, respectful, but if we're having fun, you know, there'll be a lot of, like, kind of crosstalk.

[Rob Chabolski]

Sometimes people would come in with whether they would have emailed the night before or something.

[Jake Schnessel]

They.

[Rob Chabolski]

They will have come in with a specific pitch that might be a little bit longer. This is especially true early on in the season where we're still figuring out big chunks of the story. So they. They might pitch or we might read this kind of, you know, longer document or something like that and then talk about that. That would, you know, that would happen otherwise. It's a pretty free exchange of screaming over each other, repeating other people's pitches, but louder and so we could get credit for them. It's my key things of that nature. Sometimes I will come in and I'll just, I'll just start dictating episode one. I'll see how far into the season I can get. You know, I'll do all the characters and die while I'll get that discretion. But sometimes I have to pause for water and then other people will jump in and kind of fill in more shop transitions and things like that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Sounds productive. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It might be fun to talk about. Says a little bit.

[Maggie Bowles]

We should talk about Saz.

[Mateo]

Saz is named after my mom.

[Maggie Bowles]

Is she?

[Rob Chabolski]

Wow.

[Maggie Bowles]

It does help. That's very helpful.

[Rob Chabolski]

How does she feel about the character dying? Does she know?

[Mateo]

Definitely not watching anything.

[Rob Chabolski]

She's more into the bear. Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

I don't know.

[Mateo]

She's been baffled by the entire thing since the beginning. Although they have the same kind of dragon energy.

[Rob Chabolski]

Her.

[Pete Swanson]

Her doing the somersault is that episode five where we have a stunt double, like have Jane lynch do a somersault. It was one of my favorite moments of the season for sure. There's a great picture of Steve and Jane with both of their stand ins and it's just like four of the same person. It's great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that. Well, this was very sweet and I'm very happy that we got to chat. And Ben, thank you for helping arrange this conversation.

[Jake Schnessel]

Joshua, can you explain the hankies just one more time, very slowly?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you so much for listening. That's a wrap on the season.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a wrap.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you so much to everyone who has sent us emails, connected with us through Reddit and especially those few that sent us voice messages.

[Maggie Bowles]

We love the voice memos. Thank you so much. Also, thank you to all of our incredible guests throughout the season. Especially, of course, John Hoffman for taking the time to talk to us and making the show so much more fun for us, for listeners like you, for the viewers. It's. It's been really. It's been really special.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I've had such a great time hosting and hosting with you.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I, you know, maybe we'll do it again next season.

[Maggie Bowles]

Maybe we will.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do you feel like our marriage is stronger?

[Ben Smith]

Do you think.

[Maggie Bowles]

Think it's the same? Do you think it's weaker? What do you think? How have we come out of this?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think it's stronger.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. You still love me?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I still love you. And we've learned how to. To work together in a. In a new way, which is fun.

[Maggie Bowles]

In a new way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, it's a new way.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's not like a good way, but it is new.

[Maggie Bowles]

I think it's new. I think it's good.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I can't wait for maybe next season where we'll either be back behind the screens or we'll be back in front of the mics to try to figure out who killed our beloved Sass.

[Ryan Tillotson]

If you love this show, which I know you do, subscribe, subscribe to and make sure you follow it so you get updated on next episode. And, you know, tell your friend that the show's great. Share the love, you know, help the show grow.

[Maggie Bowles]

Help the show grow. Send it to your friends. Send us your emails.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Send us your emails. Send us your voice memos.

[Maggie Bowles]

Leave a rating, leave a review.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, those are all really helpful things for us.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. See you in season four.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, bye. Love you. Miss you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hat Media. This episode was written, edited, and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt. And only Murders Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leetz, Yasmin Azarakisch, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Nabor, and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

We miss you.

[JJ Philbin]

No, Gideon.

[Maggie Bowles]

Gideon, no. Yeah.

[Rob Chabolski]

Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All right.

[Ben Smith]

Well, I would say of all of the references that the Internet may think we are making, we are making 2% of them.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Rob Chabolski]

Okay.