← Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast
Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast
S3 E2: The Beat Goes On
00:27:15
In this episode, Maggie and Ryan dive into episode two Director John Hoffman. John is also the showrunner and co-creator, but he's speaking with us as a director and producer. We talk about what a day in the life of John Hoffman looks like during...
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- [00:02]
Maggie Bowles
Straw Hut Media.
- [00:04]
John Hoffman
It was crazy on paper what we were going to try to do while also giving Meryl Streep and Paul Rudd characters and work that they were going to be intrigued by.
- [00:21]
Ryan Tillotson
Welcome to Only Murders in the Pod.
- [00:22]
Maggie Bowles
I am Maggie Bowles and I'm Ryan Tillotson and we're actually married. We never told them.
- [00:26]
Daniel Ferreira
Oh yeah.
- [00:27]
Maggie Bowles
So this season is a little different because we can't talk to any of the writers or actors, but we're still mining for clues and trying to figure out who the killer is. Before all is revealed in the season
- [00:36]
Ryan Tillotson
finale, we'll be talking to directors, editors and other key members of the production team and piecing it all together.
- [00:42]
Maggie Bowles
Today on the show, we dive into Episode two with John Hoffman, who directed the episode. He's also the showrunner and co creator, but he's talking to us today as a director and a producer.
- [00:53]
Ryan Tillotson
We'll talk about what a day in the life looks like for John Hoffman during production of Only Murders, the naming of Ben Glenn Roy, and the decision to make Death Rattle a musical.
- [01:03]
Maggie Bowles
Just a heads up, there will be spoilers for Episode two. So listeners, if you haven't watched, hit the pause button, stream it now and come right back. Also, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. We're going to be releasing two episodes per week this season and you won't want to miss them.
- [01:16]
Ryan Tillotson
Also, while you're paused, hit subscribe. Okay, let's recap
- [01:22]
Maggie Bowles
Episode two. As we see Ben Glenroy falling down the elevator shaft, we hear his monologue from the play as a voiceover three months earlier.
- [01:31]
Ryan Tillotson
He's practicing that monologue with Oliver and Oliver is coaching him.
- [01:34]
Maggie Bowles
Now, in the present day, the producers want to shut the play down because their lead is dead. Mabel is rewatching her favorite Ben Glenroy movie, Girl Cop, and we learn that she took pictures the night that he died. She starts talking to an imaginary Ben about how she's almost 30 and she's got nothing figured out.
- [01:51]
Ryan Tillotson
Mabel goes to Ben's funeral to sleuth about and meets Greg, a supposed sir security guard who offers to show her his files on suspects in Ben's murder.
- [02:01]
Maggie Bowles
She and Charles go to Greg's apartment and realize, too late that he's actually a crazy super fan. He chloroforms them and ties them up in his basement and accuses them of murdering Ben.
- [02:13]
Ryan Tillotson
At the funeral, Oliver tries to convince one of the theater reviewers to share her review to keep the play open, and she reveals she didn't like it and was going to write a Bad review.
- [02:22]
Maggie Bowles
Then Oliver has what looks like a heart attack at the church and we later learn he has high blood pressure and the doctor says he needs to relax and reduce stress.
- [02:31]
Ryan Tillotson
While Charles and Mabel are tied up. We learn that Girl Cop was an important movie for Mabel after her dad died and that Charles got 8 year old Ben fired from the set of Brazos. They're rescued by the police who think Greg murdered Ben, but Mabel doesn't agree.
- [02:45]
Maggie Bowles
They realize that Ben was holding one of the cast handkerchiefs when he died, so they think that the killer is someone in the show. Their podcast is back just like this one. And Oliver is a dream and realizes he has to turn Death Rattle into a musical.
- [03:01]
Oliver Putnam (character voice)
Death Rattle Dazzle Oliver Putnam way I'm gonna make it sing. God damn it. That's right folks, it's a musical. Get ready for Death Rattle Dazzle.
- [03:16]
Maggie Bowles
Welcome back. Here it is, our interview with John Hoffman, showrunner, co creator, producer and the Director of Season 3, Episode 2.
- [03:24]
Daniel Ferreira
From the Morning you wake up, starting with your coffee or whatever your routine is, I want to know and you get to set and then how it ends. Take Take me through the day.
- [03:32]
John Hoffman
One day it's both like a warm bath and a nightmare that's just coming back. Like a recurring nightmare that is. It is. So a great question. First of all, I would ask it myself. I'm in New York in an apartment and I wake up ridiculously early on shooting days because I, I know that come two or three o' clock I'm going to need a jolt of energy and it only comes from doing a stupid peloton workout. Sadly for the people living under me in my apartment, I, I would have prepped the night before everything for and weeks before. But then it's off to the set. Usually we start around 7am for the rehearsals and we're all gathered and we're all high spirits and like okay, Marty Short comes in and yes, he's very, very, you know, jokey with the crew and everyone else and we're all howling at 7:05 and then it's about organizing and being as clear as possible with the actors and letting them know the plan I have and if there's any adjustments they need to make or want to make, we get into that and then we're off and shooting. But it's very low key. It's gotten to be a bit familiar and familial, which is nice. So that the green room hangs with particularly this season. The cast have been extraordinary. So it's. If we're up and running in a scene and I'm directing it, for instance. And I get to sort of have a moment to go over and ask a couple of questions in the green room. I end up there probably for 20 minutes because it's so entertaining.
- [05:19]
Daniel Ferreira
So how many shots do you get through? And then when do you go to bed?
- [05:23]
John Hoffman
I think in general, like if we are shooting. And again, it depends on the number of scenes we've got and the length of those scenes. Usually you're getting between three and four scenes accomplished. Unless it's a big old scene and you've got one to get done. I push everything to the extreme. And they don't like me for that. I think hopefully they like me enough as a person to know they'll forgive me. So, yeah, so I will say three scenes, three or four scenes tops a day. And really it's usually it can be down to two, depending upon how many setups and locations within the that scene. So in other words, if we're in Charles's apartment in his living room, and then they travel to the kitchen and then it's out the door into the elevator. And there's always the doors to contend with the elevator doors and the timing of those. You know, everything is a new setup. And every section requires new rehearsal. Yes. So it. It takes a long time and everyone has to be on their toes to sort of really like land it. Now when I get to bed. Oh my God. I mean, I'm pathetic. When I come home, it's very sad when I'm having to show run from, you know, five in the morning until we would wrap around 7:00pm Seven to seven is usually what we would go to. And then come home. And 8:30, 9 o' clock after traffic and all of that. And then a lot of times, because the west coast and our editors on the west coast are three hours earlier. They will have night hours for me to dive in and start editing with them. So that I can't. I. I don't have much of a lie. I'm doing this. It's all this. It's just. It's the most overwhelming job. Plays for free. Happily so. But it's kind of unbelievable.
- [07:27]
Daniel Ferreira
Real jobs, gratifying but overwhelming.
- [07:30]
John Hoffman
But yeah, gratifyingly overwhelming. Yes, exactly.
- [07:34]
Mabel (character voice)
The people who figure their out right away are boring. The late bloomers, people like us, we make the world go round. You can afford to take your time, Mabel. What you can't afford to do is wasted.
- [07:50]
Maggie Bowles
We really love this moment between Mabel and an imaginary Ben. So we Asked John about it.
- [07:56]
John Hoffman
Yes. Oh, it's nice. First of all, I love the notion. I've always felt a bit like a late bloomer and I think there's great hope in it for anyone who has had success when they're young that a late bloomer is not off the table still for them, you know, but, but I love the hope in it all. And they do. I think in many ways a late bloomer is someone who comes to their own flourishing with more experience than they would have had it come early. So that's what's beautiful to me is that usually it's through many trials and tribulations or much learning that you land in a. In the place where you're supposed to land. So I love that notion and I think, you know, I love Ben Glenroy as within the context of Girl Cop is giving that advice. As we're looking for touchstones in episode two for Ben to connect beyond just asshole actors and, and, and deepening him and, and we did that in three different ways there, right? So you get more personal with Ben when he's rehearsing with Oliver and struggling with feeling like a phony and all of that and not up to the task and, and, and wanting this chance at this show to sort of like get deeper and do the thing he hasn't been able to do. And he himself is trying to have a bit of late blooming within this show and connect to that wish, subsequently showing the way an actor can mean something to someone in a bigger way, the way he meant to Mabel as she describes when she's tied up with Charles at the end of episode two or in the middle. And what Girl Cop and Ben Glenroy meant to her and her mother in the aftermath of losing her father. He was a touchstone for her. And so we feel an emotional hook into him that we might not otherwise have felt. And so having an imaginary scene where the very best version of Ben Glenroy is sitting with her on a couch giving her great advice that she can trust, was a beautiful idea, I think, for, for where we wanted to deepen his character and then the other side of it with Charles. And the idea that Charles had 8 year old Ben Glenroy fired from Brazos after gaining his series regular job where he was going to be the breadwinner for his family, is also upsetting. And a real hook into the reason why each of our trio feels a need to solve this murder, which is critical to us. So those are the three things we're following regarding Ben and just sort of Triangulating the dimensions of who he was. And that continues through the season in a big way. We keep doing that. Regarding Ben and hopefully surprising with what his own personal history is and some of the other characters in the season.
- [11:26]
Daniel Ferreira
In late blooming, I feel like Loretta, that's a her whole. It's like maybe just a theme in this whole season, huh? Like a lot of late blooming going on. Possibly a lot of late blooming.
- [11:37]
John Hoffman
Exactly.
- [11:38]
Daniel Ferreira
So you said this season, actually we're going to learn a lot about Ben. Ben Glenroy. What can you tell us about him? His cobra past, maybe?
- [11:48]
Javier Salas
I also love the name Ben Glenroy. It's just three names stacked on top of each other.
- [11:55]
Ryan Tillotson
Three first names.
- [11:56]
Javier Salas
Three first names.
- [11:58]
John Hoffman
That was amazing. Yes. And you know that that list is logistically like one of those things that. Yeah, we, we wanted picking names for this show. I always go to names that I like in my own head. I like. Does it ring a bell? Does it ding for me in that way that, you know, who. What have I, what have I not heard that often? All of that stuff. So picking his name to feel like legit enough that he's a well known person, but just a little off. So we, we went through a couple of different options and none of them cleared. Clearances with names are very challenging.
- [12:39]
Daniel Ferreira
What do you mean by clearances?
- [12:41]
John Hoffman
So in other words, every name in our show, you have to like get cleared by a whole organization that does clearances within our show and within every show. So if you pick a more neutral name, you know, Tom Smith, it's likely that that will clear. But who wants to name a character Tom Smith in your show? The way a name clears is if it can be confused with no one else. If our show is set in New York and if we name a character this and there is one other person residing in New York with that name, that name will not clear.
- [13:25]
Maggie Bowles
Really?
- [13:27]
John Hoffman
Yes.
- [13:27]
Maggie Bowles
Wow.
- [13:28]
John Hoffman
And because it means that we could only be talking about that actual real person who lives there and we could be, you know, I don't know, sued for what we're saying about that person. I don't know. Clearances are confusing, but I can only tell you it's a bit torturous for us because we go through so many different versions of every character's name to land on something that pings in your ear as something you won't forget. Bunny Folger or, you know, any of these names that we have in our show. Uma. You know, any of the Howard Morris. Howard Morris is an easier one to Clear. Because as you can imagine, there are a lot of Howard Morrison, but Ben, for some reason, that name. We went through so many challenges, and we were proposed the name Ben Glenroy as one that would clear.
- [14:22]
Javier Salas
What were some of the ones that. What, that didn't clear? Do you do it? Do you remember any of them?
- [14:27]
John Hoffman
Yeah, I mean, the ones you would like. I think Ben Gilroy was certainly the most obvious. Like, you know, let's. It sounds like a guy in a movie called Cobro, But I love Ben
- [14:38]
Javier Salas
Glenroy as the bastardization of Ben Gilroy. It's like when you try to get, like, your first and last name as an email address, and they're like, what about.
- [14:49]
John Hoffman
That's exactly the process with every damn name on the show. I can't even tell you.
- [14:54]
Ryan Tillotson
It's.
- [14:54]
John Hoffman
It's unbelievable. And I'm like, oh, we have to name this character. And we keep on getting, you know, dinged by the clearances. It's not clearing. It's not clearing. And then you land. When you get the clearance reports, you sometimes put in, like, five, six names as possibilities that would be acceptable to you. And then it comes back, and four are not acceptable and only one is. And you're like, well, okay, I guess that's the name. And in that case, it was Ben Glenroy was proposed as one that would clear. So I was like, well, that's ridiculous. Ben Glenroy. But in a way, I kind of thought that ridiculous thing was also kind of funny. And I enjoy it very much for Paul Rudd.
- [15:37]
Ryan Tillotson
I love it.
- [15:38]
Daniel Ferreira
I love it. That's a great story. I had no idea about these clearances, so I love that.
- [15:44]
Ryan Tillotson
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we learn about the decision to add a musical to the only Murders universe.
- [16:04]
Javier Salas
Episode 2 is. Oliver has that weird dream, that weird, like, cabaret dream, and he wakes up with the realization that he's going gotta make death rattle dazzle. He's gotta make it into a musical. And, you know, in only Murders, we've had kind of a lot of music throughout. You know, with the Jan bassoon. In season one, we have that music and that play between Charles and Jan. And then, you know, season two, we have angel and flip flops, and we get that cool musical moment and theme,
- [16:42]
Maggie Bowles
plus the sound of silence sung by the residents of the Arconia.
- [16:48]
Javier Salas
But now it seems like season three, we're, like, going off the charts. Music.
- [16:54]
Daniel Ferreira
Can you just tell us about the decision to make? I guess. Are we getting a lot of music? Are we gonna get A lot of music. And can you tell us about it?
- [17:01]
John Hoffman
Oh, my God, yes. Oh, my God, yes. That's the beauty of this season, is the songs, hopefully will come as a big surprise. You know, we've hinted at it in the trailer for the audiences, but there are incredible songs to come and performed impeccably, and music is huge. At the end of episode two, there is a build of the stakes around Marty, and I say Marty, but his character's name is Oliver Putnam. The stakes around Oliver and. And doing this, keeping his dream alive of getting his opening night, which is horribly aborted, you know, by the death of Ben or the supposed death of Ben on opening night. Five minutes in. You know, it wasn't hard to create a drive for Oliver's character, but the stakes had to be raised a bit more, I think, just in the. You know, the idea that he has this episode with his heart in episode two. And when you're talking about a director and a director like Oliver pushing himself and being wildly ambitious and doubling down when even the heart, the actual heart ticking inside of him is telling him,
- [18:29]
Doctor (character voice)
you need to take it easy, let it go. You're a mess. Too much stress. The show, the show, the show can't go on. Stop, stop, stop. Please stop.
- [18:47]
John Hoffman
We went to a very classic place that I think any Broadway director might consider, which is Bob Fosse. No one was more significant in choreography and as a director and also just how far you go. And all that Jazz was clearly a moment that made sense for us to have Oliver have a momentary dream when he's thinking about his heart. And so we give a little tip of the hat to ann Reinking Co. From all that Jazz in that moment for our own purposes, to sort of say. And of course, it has to be the flip. So the song is constantly telling Oliver he's got to take it easy, let it go. And, you know, and Selena is brilliant in it, and she's just wry and saying, you know, you know, I'm not into this musical. So it's all countering everything that would be typically razzle dazzle. And what Oliver comes out of it, not the meaning of that song at all. He's saying, oh, my God, that's the answer. It's got to be a musical. So doubling down.
- [19:53]
Oliver Putnam (character voice)
I'm listening to my heart and reimagining Death Row in the most Oliver Putnam way. I'm gonna make it sing. God damn it.
- [20:03]
Daniel Ferreira
That's right, folks.
- [20:05]
Oliver Putnam (character voice)
It's a musical. Get ready for Death Rattle Dazzle. What are you doing with that?
- [20:11]
Javier Salas
I'm curious. So when we start watching season three, we have this whole new cast of characters. And so season one, we meet everybody at the Arconia, and then season two, we get the Arconiacs, we get the pickle diner. And now season three, we have an entire cast of a play to add to the mix. Can you tell us just about how you keep track of this constantly, like, exponentially expanding list of characters and how that works?
- [20:45]
John Hoffman
Yeah, that's a good question. It exhausts me because I'm like, yeah, how did we do that? Because it's not only, I guess, the cast involved, but there is the production side and everything else on. On the creating side, producing side. Everything else that the play they're doing had to be created. And. And then the play then gets transformed. This chestnut of a play, a murder mystery play called Death Rattle, is taken to musical heights. So that play did not. Does not exist. And we had to write an entire, basically a play in our minds, plus the musical version of that play and how that would play out and how that would all thematically play into. Through music and everything else. The stories we were telling for the season.
- [21:37]
Daniel Ferreira
Well, that was another question we had, is like, how much did you. You know, you're creating a show within a show and how much of the play was actually.
- [21:47]
Javier Salas
How much have you thought through how much of that play exists in your mind?
- [21:52]
John Hoffman
There's no script, but it was. I genuinely. I step back sometimes from the end of each season and say, how the hell did we do that? But. But that. That one, this one. I've never been more proud of the group involved in this. And again, just to say the importance of this moment in our business, this season, of our show is all about the toll on creative people and what it takes to survive the challenges and the hopes of success and the challenges of having success and not success and rebounding at a time in your life. As Oliver is trying to do, Mabel is trying to find a life and can it be within a creative domain such as podcasting and investigating for her? And then Charles is trying swings at things he's never tried, both on a relationship front, but also as a stage actor. So all of that only highlights the incredible sort of risks that people in our business take and should be fairly dealt with if they're taking those risks with the corporate side and the higher upside, that needs to sort of like, make it all happen. So it's a balance. It's a shared balance for sure. So I would only say that as far as this play and this musical, there wasn't anything. And I'll never forget the moment when I guess I'm not allowed to talk about the writers, but I love them so much and I'm so proud of them. I'm so proud of the work we've done this season because it was crazy on paper what we were going to try to do, while also giving Meryl Streep and Paul Ruddy characters and work that they were going to be intrigued by. So, death rattle. When I. When I heard the phrase death rattle, it was one of our writers, I believe, Joshua Allen Griffith, who suggested that as a title. And it just, like, opened up everything for me.
- [24:31]
Maggie Bowles
So for this week's Clue, we're gonna go back and replay something John said because feels like a clue, even though he didn't explicitly say it was.
- [24:38]
Ryan Tillotson
It's a clue.
- [24:39]
Maggie Bowles
Okay, well, for context, he was talking about Ben Glenroy. And the three moments of kind of humanization we got for him in this episode was where Oliver helping him with his monologue, Mabel's connection to girl cop, and Charles having gotten him fired as a kid. Here's that moment again from John.
- [24:57]
John Hoffman
Those are the three things we're following regarding Ben and just sort of triangulating the dimensions of who he was. And that continues through the season in a big way. But we keep doing that regarding Ben and hopefully surprising with what his own personal history is and some of the other characters in the season.
- [25:21]
Ryan Tillotson
So what do you think? Clue, right?
- [25:24]
Maggie Bowles
I don't know. Maybe something to consider before we go.
- [25:27]
Ryan Tillotson
You might have noticed we're not doing guesses, and if you missed the whodunit summit, you can still have it.
- [25:33]
Daniel Ferreira
We've teamed up with the only Murders
- [25:35]
Ryan Tillotson
subreddit, so if you are a Reddit user, message us there or send us an email with your theories or who you think killed Ben to. Only murdersrahutmedia.com we will read them out
- [25:48]
Maggie Bowles
for you on the show or if you send it as a voice memo, we'll play it. And I would really love to get voice memos. I'm going to say it again. Send me your voice memos.
- [25:56]
Ryan Tillotson
Send a voice memo. That's our show for today. Thanks for listening.
- [25:59]
Maggie Bowles
See you next week.
- [26:21]
Ryan Tillotson
Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt and only Murders. Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Neighbor and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.
- [26:57]
John Hoffman
We missed.