S3 E4: The White Room (Part 2)

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast
Episode: S3 E4: The White Room (Part 2)
Date: August 25, 2023
Host: Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard), with Maggie Bowles & Ryan Tillotson
Featured Guest: Adam Shankman (Director, Ep 4)

Episode Overview

This episode dives behind the scenes of Season 3, Episode 4 (“The White Room”) of Only Murders in the Building, guided by director Adam Shankman. Unable to interview writers or actors due to ongoing strike conditions, hosts focus on production insights and fan theories. The episode brings to life the creative challenges, comedic highlights, and fan engagement that make the series so engaging, especially the creation of the “White Room” sequence and quirky on-set humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bringing "The White Room" to Life

[01:21–05:00]

• Defining the "White Room":
  Adam recounts his experiences with the "White Room" — a performer’s mental state of blankness or astral projection mid-performance.

  “I have done it before… it’s kind of other world… when I come down, I just don’t know where I am.” – Adam Shankman [01:29]

• Filming Challenges:
  Adam reveals uncertainty about translating the White Room conceit to the screen:

  “That felt something on the page that had never been done in the show before…was never probably going to be done again.” – Adam Shankman [03:07] Director John Hoffman wanted a single overhead shot, but Adam advocated for a Steadicam to capture Steve Martin’s expressions dynamically—ultimately blending visions for the final result.

2. Funniest Set Moments & Actor Chemistry

[05:57–09:43]

• Tina Fey’s Improvisations and Laughter:
  Working with Tina Fey and Selena Gomez led to nonstop laughter due to Tina’s improv:

  “All we did was laugh. We never, ever, ever stopped laughing.” – Adam Shankman [05:57]
  “In my cut, I kept a bunch of her ad libs. I don’t know if they’re still there.” [06:34] Memorable details included Tina’s character bathing in “the healing soil of the Pacific Palisades” and using a “jade egg.”

• Quoting and Extending Gags:
  Fans get snippets of funny dialogue (some ad-libbed) that made it into the episode, e.g.

  “...I invested in fluffy towels, a fleet of soy candles, and a jade egg that is currently nestled in my privates.” – Tina Fey as Cindy [07:20]

• Donna & Cliff’s Outlandish Elevator Scene:
  Adam recalls uncontrollable laughter thanks to Marty Short’s reactions during the elevator/“breastfeeding” scene:

  “I don’t know that I’ll ever get over shooting that scene. I was laughing so hard. The two of them were so bloody funny.” – Adam Shankman [08:33]

3. The Pleasure of Quiet Moments

[09:12–09:43]

• Despite the big musical/comedic set pieces, Adam’s favorite scenes were the quiet, emotional moments between Steve Martin and Martin Short’s characters sharing scotch:

  “Really my favorite stuff to shoot…is the intimate kind of acting moments like that. That’s down and dirty. That is my favorite stuff to shoot.” – Adam Shankman [09:29]

4. Filming With Limited Knowledge & Visual Clues

[10:05–12:59]

• Directing Without Full Story Spoilers:
  Adam explains working several episodes ahead without knowing full season resolutions or who the killer is. He was only briefed on specifics if a shot contained major clues.

  “I still don’t know.” – Adam Shankman [10:25]
  “Just so you know—you know more than me.” [11:11]

• Visual Clues Are Key:
  Sometimes told to “get a shot of this scarf” or “make sure you get the lipstick” for future plot points.
• Surprising Revelations:
  Adam was floored (“laughed so hard”) by the reveal of who was visible in a key piece of surveillance footage, noting it wasn’t someone anyone would guess.

5. The Set’s Unique Joyful Energy

[12:10–13:08]

• Adam describes the set as “the happiest set I’ve ever been on in my career,” crediting showrunners and main cast for creating a welcoming, home-like atmosphere.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On The White Room:

  “I've never called it the White Room ... I've been in shows where suddenly I will go to a place ... I suddenly just space out and then I'll come back.” – Adam Shankman [01:29]

• On Tina Fey's Character:

  “I invested in fluffy towels, a fleet of soy candles, and a jade egg that is currently nestled in my privates.” – Tina Fey as Cindy [07:20]

• On Set Happiness:

  “This is like the happiest set I've ever been on in my career ... It just has that feeling. Everything felt like I was coming home ... I will literally treasure it forever.” – Adam Shankman [13:02]

---

Listener Fan Theory Highlights

1. Decoding Ben’s Dressing Room Conversation

[14:09–15:49]

• Multiple listeners speculate on whom Ben was talking to before the murder.
  • Lucy, producer’s son, Jonathan, Howard, Kimber, and Loretta all floated.
  • The hottest theory: Ben was talking to the cookies (especially after noticing possible cookie tattoos).
    • “The cookies.” – Ryan & Maggie [15:19]
• Schmackary’s, the real NYC cookie shop referenced in-show, gets a shoutout [15:42].

2. Suspect Motives & Identity Theories

[15:49–18:47]

• Michael M.: Amy Schumer did it “because he wouldn't leave her apartment”—and Dicky and Ben might be lovers, not brothers.
• Ken A.: Suggests possible suicide, citing Ben’s resigned expression.
• Reddit user UA1000X offers two ideas:
  • Tobert may have involvement for a juicier documentary.
  • Ben faked his poisoning, perhaps to draw out his murderer or gain attention.

3. Ben the Twin?

[18:54–19:56]

• Reddit’s “birdlord420” shares the most popular theory of the week: Ben has an identical twin; one twin died at the show, the second killed by someone from the Arconia. Loretta might be mother/nanny to both Ben and Dickie.

4. Dickie as Killer

[19:56–20:52]

• User Abel_AD1920 and several listeners suspect Dickie (Ben’s brother/manager), citing long-term resentment from working under Ben.

5. Additional Reddit & Email Highlights

[16:20–21:08]

• Tobert and Theo are under additional suspicion.
• Multiple users believe there may be two separate murderers for Ben’s poisoning and his elevator shaft fall.

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Voice Memos – Listener Theories

[21:32–23:42]

• Alana:
  • Ben’s murder was a two-person job: Jonathan (poison) and Cliff (push).
• Fabian (Netherlands):
  • Dickie is the murderer, after years of working for Ben, possibly snapping due to abuse or neglect.

Host Reactions:

• Hosts Maggie and Ryan agree Dickie is highly suspicious, referencing his breakdown.

---

Memorable Close & Listener Engagement

[24:13–24:39]

• Hosts invite listeners to try singing the tongue-twisting “Pickwick Triplets” song, encouraging fan submissions.

  “Try it. See how far you get.” – Maggie Bowles [24:37]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:21: Introducing “The White Room” and Adam’s personal experience
• 03:07: Directing challenges and staging the White Room
• 05:57: Tina Fey’s improvised wellness scene
• 08:33: Laughter filming Donna & Cliff’s elevator moment
• 09:12: Favorite intimate scenes with Steve Martin & Martin Short
• 10:05: Filming with limited information, visual clues
• 12:10: The happiest set ever
• 14:09: Listener theory deep-dive (who was in the dressing room)
• 15:49: Cookie theories & speculation on the killer
• 21:32: Listener voice memos and final theories

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Overall Tone

The episode balances playful fandom (lots of laughter, commiseration over theories), directors’ professional insights, and listener interactivity. The tone is warm, witty, and irreverent, mirroring the show's signature mix of comedy and suspense.

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Useful for:

• Fans eager to catch hidden clues behind the scenes
• Those wanting director insights on creative decision-making
• Viewers who enjoy dissecting and debating whodunit theories

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Note: The episode skips over advertisements, intro theme, and outro credits for focus on content and fan experience.

Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut.

[Adam Shankman]

Media God, Steve was so into singing that song.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, was he?

[Adam Shankman]

It was. I, I, I. He. He loved it. He. Well, I think he loved it, but he also knew he had to do well at it. And so he was just rehearsing it so much, you know, so he was

[Maggie Bowles]

like Charles walking around down the hallway just singing which of the Pickwick very. That.

[Adam Shankman]

Which of the Pickwick triplets did.

[Ryan Tillotson]

There it is.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hello. Welcome to Only Murders in the Pod. I'm Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I'm Ryan Tillotson. This season is a little different because we can't talk to any of the writers or actors, but we're still mining for clues and trying to figure out who the killer is. Before all is revealed in the season

[Maggie Bowles]

finale, we'll be talking to directors, editors, and other key members of the production team and piecing it all together.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This is part two of our coverage of episode four. In the first part, we heard from John Hoffman and costume designer Dana Covarrubias. It was great. If you didn't listen yet, go listen.

[Maggie Bowles]

And today we're talking to the director of episode four, Adam Shankman, about some of his favorite moments on set. And then, of course, we'll go through some of our listener theories. So stay tuned.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So this episode is called the White Room. Have you ever heard of the White What? Heard of that before? Have you experienced it?

[Adam Shankman]

I've never called it the White Room. Like, I've never had a name for it. I have done it before. I have been in there. Like, I've been in shows where suddenly I will go to a place in the middle of a scene that is kind of other world with, like, I astral project. And when I come down, I just don't know where I am. I don't know. But it's not out of stress or anger or tension. It's sometimes it's just from having been there, having done the thing so many times, I suddenly just space out and then I'll come back and I'll do that. It's weird, but. But it's not, you know, it's certainly not as we show it in the show, but not my experience of it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But. But it's a thing.

[Adam Shankman]

It's definitely a thing. Yeah, it's definitely a thing.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Adam Shankman]

A lot of, like, a lot of dancers I know have done it, you know, which is really crazy because sometimes you'll go. And suddenly you don't know what steps you're doing. And you. And you're like, oh, my God, how did I find Myself on this side of the stage or. But, you know, I've seen actors go up a lot where they suddenly are like. They'll just start talking, and you're like, I don't know what's happening right now. Like, this has literally. This can't have anything to do with what is written. So, yeah, there's. It's. It's pretty remarkable.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Which of the Pickwick triplets did it? Which of the Foo and the quick five flew little?

[Adam Shankman]

The one thing that was a mystery to me for a while was exactly how we were going to do the White Room. Because that felt something on the page that a had never been done in the show before and was also and was never probably going to be done again. And it was like its own thing, and it was surrealist.

[Maggie Bowles]

And.

[Adam Shankman]

Oh, and John just kept saying, I really want it in one overhead shot. And I was like, I don't know if that's going to be dynamic enough. Like, I. I. And I kept trying to get in his head. So by the time we actually got into the space when the White Room was built, which was like, basically the day before we started shooting, we walked in in between, you know, scenes and stuff, and while they were moving camera and we kind of walked through it with Steve, what he was doing. And I said to John, I was like, I am just begging you, please let me have a steady cam in here to move around so that in case the wide shot doesn't feel like enough, I can. We can have this to cut to, because Steve is just going to be so expressive in this way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Good call. Yeah.

[Adam Shankman]

And he agreed it wasn't even a problem. Like, as once we were in the space and he saw it, he was like, oh, I get that. Okay, great. So. But, like, he clearly had something in his head that I was not understanding exactly how it was gonna work with the dynamics of what Steve was just going through that led him into the White room and let him back out of the white room.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, my pants are still on, so that's a good sign.

[Tom]

I have never heard filth like, what just came out of your mouth.

[Adam Shankman]

Tom is a Christian, Charles.

[Tom]

Take the day, Tom. Find a priest. Pray it out.

[Adam Shankman]

I'm sorry, Tom.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't know. Shh.

[Tom]

I'm taking control of this situation now. Step into my office.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This episode is also where we are reintroduced to syndicating. This time blonde and enlightened.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, you know, I think there's a pun there. Like, she's enlightened in spirit and in hair.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Sure. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

She's enlightened herself physically and emotionally.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Sure.

[Tina]

I went on a silent retreat. At one point, I squatted over a mirror and celebrated my vulva. But I think I've put my time in. I figure two more weeks in these tunics, and I can get back to doing what I really love, which is same as you.

[Tom]

Murder.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Sit.

[Tina]

Let me make you some tea. There's something I want to talk to you about.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Come on.

[Adam Shankman]

I love shooting that scene with Tina and Selena so much. Tina, all we did was laugh. We never, ever, ever, ever stopped laughing. Like, because, I mean, she definitely does the lines as written, but then she'll play around and dang, every time she does. There are some things that she says that just made me laugh. I don't even know at this point, to be perfectly honest. Like, Shelly could tell you. I don't know if some of the ad libs made it in to the thing. Like, in my cut, I kept a bunch of her ad libs. I don't know if they're still there.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They were saying that everyone is really pretty much to the script. So it's exciting to hear that Tina is, like, playing around.

[Adam Shankman]

There was a thing that she said about relaxing, like, because she's talking about her new wellness routine and how she's gotten back into this much more holistic life approach. And she bathes in the mud of the Mariana Trench.

[Tina]

Maybe your ritual is journaling or a walk in the woods. For me, I stay start every day bathing in mud from the healing soil of the Pacific Palisades.

[Adam Shankman]

And she's opened up sexually with the help of a large vibrating egg or something like that. And there was something else in there. Oh, like as I sit here with a vibrating egg in my rectum or something like that.

[Tina]

When I created my sanctuary, I invested in fluffy towels, a fleet of soy candles, and a jade egg that is currently nestled in my privates.

[Adam Shankman]

And I was like, I'm keeping it in. Like, there's no way. I'm not putting that in there. Of course it's gonna be there. Yeah. But anyway.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes.

[Adam Shankman]

Working with Tina. Working with Tina and Selena in those scenes in the recording studio. I haven't laughed that hard on a set in a long time. It was. It was. We were laughing the whole day. It was great. It was great. Yeah. And that's a very laughy set.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, I can imagine.

[Adam Shankman]

I laughed so hard when we were shooting the scene when Donna and Cliff are standing by the elevator, and she said, what does the doctor say about breastfeedings? And don't give up on something you want.

[Maggie Bowles]

He did? Yeah. When we were going over the thing.

[Adam Shankman]

Don't give up on something you love.

[Tom]

Do you remember what my doctor told me on my eighth birthday?

[Ryan Tillotson]

That it was time to stop breastfeeding.

[Tom]

And what did you say?

[Ryan Tillotson]

That you should never give up on something you love.

[Tom]

You made me believe that. Mom, I know this is risky, and I. That you've always told me that my first.

[Adam Shankman]

I don't know that I'll ever get over shooting that scene. I was laughing so hard. The two of them were so bloody funny. Marty. Marty's expressions as they were talking. Because I was shooting. I was cross shooting. So whatever you see Marty doing was, like, real, like, so withering. That relationship is just. Just so freaking bizarre.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love them.

[Adam Shankman]

I loved shooting the scene where Marty and Steve are just sitting in that office talking, drinking, having a scotch together. Like, and Steve is going. And Steve is talking about, should I break up with Joy?

[Tom]

Look, Charles, I'm no psychoanalyst, although I did talk Adena Menzel off a literal ledge once. Story for another time. But I'm wondering if there isn't something more going on.

[Alana]

Like what?

[Tom]

Like Joy moving in. That's a huge life change.

[Adam Shankman]

I loved shooting that scene. Just those guys hanging out and talking. Like, it's funny because, like, I do such. I usually do such big crazy, you know, all the all over the place stuff. But really my favorite stuff to shoot is that stuff is the intimate.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Adam Shankman]

Kind of acting moments like that. That's. That's down and dirty. That is my favorite stuff to shoot. So the trick is just like, balancing where the big comedy comes against those scenes and, you know, and. But it's a testament to John and the writers at crafting a thing that actually makes it pretty easy to do.

[Maggie Bowles]

Am I right in that? You said that when you came in to shoot 3 and 4, you only knew 1, 2, 3, 4. Right. You didn't know what happened after that. Okay, so when do you find out how everything shakes out along with the rest of the audience? Really?

[Adam Shankman]

I still don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

You still don't know?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, that's so crazy.

[Adam Shankman]

Except for the things that I needed to know to get a shot of to shoot that were clues. Like, there are certain things, they're just

[Ryan Tillotson]

like, adam, make sure you get a shot of this scarf.

[Adam Shankman]

Yeah, get a shot of the scarf. You know, make sure you get the lipstick.

[Maggie Bowles]

Wow. Is there anything. What we usually. What we used to do on past seasons of this show is we would like add. Ask the writers or actors for, like, a clue. But it's been kind of harder this year. And honestly, they don't give a good. They never give an actual clue.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Clever. And they usually trick us.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, they're trying to trick. But is there anything. Any visual clues even? It's just about where the story's going. Not even maybe related to the.

[Adam Shankman]

Just so you know. You know more than me.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So I think just the fact that. That. That they are.

[Maggie Bowles]

That there are visual clues.

[Ryan Tillotson]

There are visual clues. Is a clue. Is a good enough clue. You know, like, that is.

[Maggie Bowles]

So that's solid.

[Adam Shankman]

There are. They're very. They are. They are very much are.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Adam Shankman]

And I was. I was surprised because initially I didn't know, and finally I was like, I need to understand what I'm shooting right now. I didn't know. In. In the clip that Selena and Jesse find that they see where Paul is talking to the person in the room. I. When I found out who it was, I laughed so hard, I didn't know what to do with myself. Because it was. It was not the answer that I thought. I mean, I was laughing because I was like, talk about a person I would never have.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Wow. Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay.

[Adam Shankman]

You know, so, I mean, just additionally, I mean, maybe I was clear, and I. I'm. I'm pretty happy to, you know, just say when something's a good experience or not. I'm telling you, this is like the happiest set I've ever been on in my career, short of maybe that movie that I made with Steve earlier, which was, you know, there's. There's joy and then there's this. You know, this is very, very special. And that really comes from. It's John and Kristen really at the head, and then filters down into Stephen, Marty and Selena. Make sure that it's just. It just has that feeling. I. You know, it. It just. Everything felt like I was coming home, you know, it was just this incredibly

[Ryan Tillotson]

warm,

[Adam Shankman]

very, very sweet experience for me. I will literally treasure it forever.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that.

[Adam Shankman]

It's a wonderful, wonderful place. I wish everybody could go there.

[Maggie Bowles]

Me, too.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, me too.

[Maggie Bowles]

I wish we could go there next season.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The podcast is going on set.

[Maggie Bowles]

On set. Thanks so much, Adam. This was really great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll read some of your theories. We've got some from the only murder subreddit, some from our emails, and we even got some voice memos this week.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yay. Welcome back. Okay, it is time for us to explore some of the theories and thoughts that you guys have sent in both by email and on the only murder subreddit. So let's start with emails. Right, Ryan?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes. We've gotten so many. Thank you so, so much. And thank you for all the love. Lots of love.

[Maggie Bowles]

Lots of love.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you and it is appreciated.

[Maggie Bowles]

So the first thing that people are talking about is trying to figure out who Ben is talking to in the dressing room. Now we've seen episode four. We still don't know because, you know, these like, these theories are like one week behind. Anyways, so Katie C. From the UK Thinks maybe it's Lucy in the dressing room, although she doesn't think that she's the killer. Amy D. Thinks maybe it's the producer's son or Jonathan or Howard in the dressing room. And Grace, Grace M. She and her dad don't think it's Kimber in the dressing room. And they also have a theory that maybe Loretta is Ben's biological mother.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's good. I like it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Theories crossed my mind too, but those theories came in. But there was one theory about who Ben's talking to in the dressing room that came up way more than anything else.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So many emails about just about this theory. And it's very, very clever. And I did not think of it.

[Maggie Bowles]

It didn't even cross my mind. And I think it's so good. Five different people, Sarah from Shropshire, Aaron R. Holly A, Bob O. And Winja B. All think that Ben was talking to cookies. The cookies.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The cookies.

[Maggie Bowles]

Isn't that crazy?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Think about it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Think about it. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Winjabee also noticed that Ben's tattoos maybe depict cookies. Did anybody else notice that?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I did not notice it. I need to go back and watch. Let us know.

[Maggie Bowles]

I didn't notice it either. And also, Aaron R. Says that Schmackery's is a real place.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, yeah. Business is gonna boom.

[Maggie Bowles]

I wanna go theater district next time we're in New York. I think we should go.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, sounds great. I would love it.

[Maggie Bowles]

So then the other theories were about who killed Ben. Michael M. Thinks Amy Schumer killed Ben because he wouldn't leave the apartment.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Funny. That'd be great. I'd love to see Amy Schumer again.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, my God, she is murderous. And he also thinks that Dicky and Ben are not brothers after all, but actually lovers, which I love that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Great theory.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love that. And then Ken A. Is thinking maybe it was a suicide. He says in his email, quote, his face in the Scene where he's falling seems rather resigned rather than panicked or angry.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting. Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, very interesting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And then thank you for just some emails of love again. Thank you so much. Okay, subreddit, let's talk about the subreddit.

[Maggie Bowles]

The wonderful mods over at Reddit sent us over a couple of their favorite theories, so thanks for sharing those with us. Let's start with UA1000X. Yes. I guess that's probably like a thousand times yes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

A thousand times yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, tell us about that one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, well, this person is suspicious of Tobert. I'm gonna just read the theory because I'm also suspicious of Tobbert.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, you hate to. He's too hot.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That must be it. Okay, here we go. Two random possibilities I've considered that are probably in over the Top slash not Likely camp. Did Tobert somehow find out about the murderer's plan's first murder? Or maybe was involved from the beginning to get himself a more interesting documentary? Interesting. In this theory, he isn't the actual killer, but someone assists in the murder in exchange for the documentary position. It doesn't seem like the original documentary focus. To follow Ben around would be that interesting to someone who filmed elephants in Botswana, but following an actor who gets murdered mid performance would be. Yeah, I agree.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a really good point.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Totally agree. Okay, and the second bullet point by a 1000x. Yes. Could Ben have somehow faked his poisoning? Mabel mentions how if he were poison, then he'd be foaming at the mouth. And it's an odd line to throw in if we're supposed to believe he actually was poisoned. And he seems to recover quite fast. Two possible reasons I've considered as to why he might fake his first death is he wanted attention. Or maybe he found out that someone had tried to poison him. Like he discovered poisoned cookies and faked his death to freak them out. Or maybe as a means to figure out who tried to kill him. This could incentivize the original attempted killer to kill him for good so he wouldn't expose them.

[Maggie Bowles]

I can't even react to that theory. Because you had such a hard time getting through it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know. I'm so sorry for everyone listening, but it was a really. It's a really good theory. It's another cookie theory.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Anyway. Fascinating.

[Maggie Bowles]

I wonder. Ben does seem like the type who would fake his own death for attention, right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know. I feel like I don't know him well enough to have a real answer to that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, okay. So the next theory is from you,

[Ryan Tillotson]

birdlord420 and the mods let us know that this is currently the most widespread theory on the subreddit. Yeah, interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, so this is what that person says. They say, I've fallen down the rabbit hole. And my current theory is Ben is an identical twin. The first twin died at the show. The second twin was killed by someone who lives in the arconia, and Loretta is Ben the twin and Dickie's mom or nanny. Dickie will also die by the end of the season, letting the musical scene play out in its entirety.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow. So Loretta is Ben's mom and Dickie's mom and Ben's twins mom or nanny. Or nanny. Right.

[Maggie Bowles]

But I think the most important part of that is that Ben is an identical twin.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, that would be a big surprise.

[Maggie Bowles]

That would be a surprise. Yeah, I guess. I guess it's possible.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Sure. Yeah. I mean, listen, if that's the most popular theory right now on the subreddit, a lot of people are thinking it. It must be possible, you know? Yeah, it's possible.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, that's possible. Okay, so this one's from Abel, A.D. 1920. And they think that Dickie's been suspicious since the second time he was introduced. That a lifetime of keeping up with your demanding brother breeds a lot of resentment that has time to fester.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Totally. I get it. I think so.

[Maggie Bowles]

So they go on to say, could actually see him being the second killer rather than the first, which is interesting. Another theory that came up in the emails that there's two killers and the first, if Ben's first, quote, death gave him a vision of what life would be like without him choosing his own clients, for example, and that Ben came back to life demanding the same things he thought he was just free from. And they argue about Dickie deserving more respect. And Dickie accidentally pushes Ben down the elevator shaft, which would be like, similar to season one, when Theo accidentally pushes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, off the. Off the building.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Their friend. Off the building.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

This person, user able ad 1920, also thinks there's something very suspicious about Talbert telling you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I feel the same way.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I like Theo.

[Maggie Bowles]

I know. Yeah. You. You're a Theo. I love. We all love Theo.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

So those are all the theories that we're going through that. That was a lot of theories.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes. Well, you know, keep on guessing. And thanks for contributing to the podcast.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, we so appreciate it. And before we go, we got a couple of voice memos that we're really excited to play for you. The first voice Memo is from Alana, and here's what she said.

[Alana]

Ben Glenroy. I love the three names. He was supposedly poisoned, I think by a cookie. And then he was pushed down the elevator shaft. I think those are two separate incidents by two separate people who do. I think I'm really leaning towards Jonathan and Cliff. And I know that that's kind of out there, but I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Cliff.

[Alana]

I can make a more compelling case for just. With his relationship with his demeaning mother and his love for musicals, maybe Ben was kind of getting in the way of making them play what Cliff really wanted. And Cliff really wanted a musical in the end and to prove to his mother he was right. And Ben kind of gone in the way. Jonathan, I think he would have been the one that poisoned the cookie that Ben eventually ate. The reason why, I don't think I have it yet, but in the. I believe it was the first episode when he was talking to Kimber. He was reserved, and he seemed to have some emotion with regards to, you know, everyone thinking that Ben was dead the first time. But it still just didn't seem right. So, like I said, I don't have the most compelling case for Jonathan, but those are my guesses.

[Maggie Bowles]

The next one, this one is from Fabian in the Netherlands.

[Fabian]

I think it's going to be Dickie, Ben's brother, that killed Ben. I mean, he's been working for Ben for years. And clearly Ben. Ben is a very difficult person to work with. So I think in the end, he probably committed fratricide by killing his brother after taking years of torture, I would say. And he just snapped. I mean, he was there when he came back from the hospital. He was there during the night of the premiere. He had plenty of time. Nobody really notices him because he's the manager. And we don't know if he had a handkerchief from Ben, you know, as a opening night gift. Yeah, I know. My brother works in theater, and sometimes other people get those opening night gifts, too. So it might not just be the crew, but maybe someone outside of it. I think the person that's in the dressing room is probably going to be a red herring.

[Adam Shankman]

It's probably going to be Kimber, but

[Fabian]

it's probably going to be something else. So. Yeah, I don't know why, but I feel confident it's going to be Dickie. But I guess we'll see.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Something to think about.

[Maggie Bowles]

Something to think about. A lot of suspicion of Dickie.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, absolutely. I am also suspicious of him.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm suspicious of him, too. Yeah, like when he was, like, crying

[Ryan Tillotson]

and saying I'm sorry and throwing stuff and like.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, yeah. He's very. He's a loose kitten.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So that's it.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's our show.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's it for the show. We'll be back next week.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Episode.

[Maggie Bowles]

Episode five next week. Thanks so much for listening, Ryan. Do you want to try the Pickwick?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, gosh.

[Maggie Bowles]

Ready, set, go.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Which of the chiplets did it?

[Maggie Bowles]

Who of the crew could commit this crime? It's a story pretty gory for our nursery, right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't all. I know from the beginning. Okay, that was pretty good.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All right. You can send in your voice memo of you trying it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, Try it. See what you get. See how far you get.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Bye, everyone.

[Maggie Bowles]

Bye.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Steven Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt, and only Murders Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Neighbor, and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

We miss you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

In the first part, we heard from John Hoffman in costume and costume designer, Dana Covarrubius. It was great. If you didn't listen, go listen.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's very convincing. It was great. Despite his ridiculous way of saying it

[Ryan Tillotson]

was great, he actually was poisoned. And he seems to recover startingly. Startingly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Startlingly.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you. He seems to recover startingly. I can't. I can't say that word. Okay, hold on.

[Maggie Bowles]

Startlingly.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And he seems to recover. Starter. Starter. Startlingly. Startling.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, just say fast.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. Just startling. Fast. Yeah. Okay.