S3 E6: Ghost Light (Part 1)

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S3 E6: Ghost Light (Part 1)

Release Date: September 6, 2023
Host: Hulu, Michael Cyril Creighton
Featured Guests: Chris Koch (Director), Peyton Koch (Editor), Shelley Westerman (Editor), Kyle Wolschlager (Director of Photography)

Episode Overview

This episode of the Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast takes a deep dive into Season 3, Episode 6 (“Ghost Light”). Hosts Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson are joined by key behind-the-scenes creatives—including director Chris Koch, editors Peyton Koch and Shelley Westerman, and DP Kyle Wolschlager—to unpack the making of one of the show’s most atmospheric and mysterious installments.

Main themes include the construction of the episode's ghostly ambiance, the technical and creative challenges behind Jerry Blau’s lair (and its infamous rat), and insights into how the team approaches the show’s blend of comedy, mystery, and theatrical magic. The episode is rich with anecdotes about cast performances, set design, and the traditions of theater lore as they appear in Only Murders in the Building.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Plot Recap & Standout Moments

[01:05-04:09]

• Howard Takes Center Stage: Episode opens with a Howard voiceover explaining the history (and curse) of the Gooseberry Theater. He dramatically confesses to the murder of Ben Glenroy, referencing the failure to sweep Gideon's ghost off the stage.
• The Investigation Deepens: The trio investigates the theater, finding clues (like comparing handwriting and lipstick on the mirror) and nearly getting injured by falling sandbags—a nod to the alleged curse.
• Jerry Blau’s Lair: Oliver stumbles upon Jerry Blau squatting in a secret room; Jerry recounts Ben and Loretta’s explosive fight and gives Oliver some life advice, aided by oddball puppetry.
• Charles’s Closet Ordeal: Charles accidentally locks himself in a closet with President McKinley (the fish), inadvertently sets off a fog machine, and records what he thinks might be a farewell video.
• Quarreling Trio: Tensions rise; Oliver reveals new information about Charles and Ben, tempers flare, Charles quits the play, Mabel leaves the podcast, and the group is left fractured.

Memorable Quote:

"A man is dead. A man who actually meant something to me. And I'm gonna figure out who did it, whether the two of you give a shit or not." — Oliver [04:09]

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2. The Infamous Rat Scene and the Art of Visual Effects

[04:36-06:15, 09:17-10:07]

• Initially, there was a graphic and absurd moment where Jerry cooks a rat on the grill. Producers nixed it, leading to a meticulous VFX job to paint the rat out of the remaining footage.
• Behind-the-scenes Note:

  “Originally, Jerry picks up the rat and brings it over and slams it on the grill... The producers came in, and they were like, ‘this is too much’... So we had to have visual effects paint out the rat.” — Peyton Koch [04:36]

• The rat’s implication lingers in the script, as Jerry exclaims, “Oh, you came on a good night,” inferring an intended meal.

Comedy Highlight:
Discussing the professionalism of the trained rat, the hosts dub it “the Meryl Streep of rats.”

“First take, the rat does it perfectly... Could not have been more perfect.” — Chris Koch [10:31]

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3. Magic, Realism, and Theater Lore

[07:22-14:18]

• Director Chris Koch’s Approach: He relished getting to direct both a love story (Ep5) and a ghost story (Ep6), specifically highlighting the nostalgic “New York-ness” of each.
• Theater as a Haunted Place: Shooting took place in the gorgeously restored United Palace theater, adding authenticity to the “ghostly” feel. The team embraced magical realism—particularly with Howard’s spotlight moment on stage.
• Ghost Light Tradition:

  “There’s almost always a ghost light, for real... even on sound stages. It’s a theater thing.” — Chris Koch [13:41]

• Magical Realism Examples: Howard’s voiceover and vision of Gideon’s ghost, spotlight moments matched to performer emotions, are cited as examples of the show’s playful style.

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4. Crafting Suspicion and Whodunnit Tropes

[14:33-15:29, 24:24-26:35]

• Suspicion falls on Jonathan in this episode; the director and DP discuss intentionally treating every suspect as “the one” in the show’s visual language.
• Misdirection is key:

  “I purposely don’t know who it is... I approach each person as if they are a real suspect. That’s the goal.” — Chris Koch [14:46]

• Lighting choices play into this; lighting from below or from odd angles can make characters seem more sinister or dubious, depending on the clues being presented.

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5. Technical & Production Design Details

[17:47-18:02, 26:46-28:19]

• Set Tricks: Jerry’s lair was a custom-built set, ingeniously slotted behind a wall of Charles’s apartment. The tight space created lighting and camera challenges, solved with creative use of set walls and nearby light sources.
• Shooting in Small Spaces:

  “...shooting inside of it, because we could pull a wall... but we try to do that as little as possible because it sucks up time. Getting the lighting correct in those spaces is a challenge, because you can’t light from far away.” — Kyle Wolschlager [27:17]

• Reusing hallways and set pieces in clever ways to maximize variety and viewer immersion.

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6. Acting Performances and Emotional Payoffs

[11:32-13:10, 18:57-19:50, 22:54-23:39]

• Howard’s Backstory and Michael Cyril Creighton’s Performance:

  “He brings this sort of scared, manic energy... inspires me to do things I hadn’t planned. Like, the spotlight hit him... just seeing him and the energy he brought made me realize I could go into his headspace.” — Chris Koch [11:32]

• Group Fracture:
  Director Chris Koch praises Selena Gomez for her performance in the trio’s dramatic breakup scene, noting its emotional power and the rarity of all three leads parting ways so completely.

---

7. Show’s Visual Identity: Traditional Meets Theatrical

[21:51-22:54]

• Koch describes his fondness for the show’s “old-timey Hollywood feel” with elegant, stately camera work—distinct from much of today’s handheld TV cinematography.

• “This is very stately... got a beautiful sort of elegant vision to it... and you can have moments of magical realism in all three seasons.” — Chris Koch [22:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Directing in NYC:

  “Love and ghosts. That’s New York City.” — Chris Koch [07:35]

• On Howard’s Dream:

  “My dream job was to be an actor... but after the show, my mother told me my stage voice was matronly and shrill.” — Howard [23:02]

• On Misdirection:

  “If it’s misdirection, I want it to be effective misdirection.” — Chris Koch [15:03]

• On Set Magic:

  “The show... lent itself to being a little bit more whimsical because you’re in the theater. Why not take the opportunity?” — Kyle Wolschlager [23:44]

• On Production Challenges:

  “Each episode’s like a little feature, which is what I love about it.” — Chris Koch [21:31]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:05] — Episode Recap with Key Plot Beats
• [04:36] — Editors Discuss Rat Scene and Visual Effects
• [07:22] — Director Chris Koch on Love, Ghosts, and NYC as a Character
• [10:31] — On the Trained Rat’s “Oscar-worthy” Performance
• [11:32] — Crafting Howard’s On-Stage Moment & Magical Realism in Episode 6
• [13:41] — The Real Theater Ghost Light Tradition
• [14:46] — How Suspects Are Shot for Maximum Suspense
• [17:47] — Reusing Set Spaces Cleverly
• [18:57] — The Trio’s Big Breakup and Acting Performances
• [21:51] — "Old-Timey Hollywood" Style of the Series
• [23:44] — DP Kyle Wolschlager on Lighting for Suspicion and Whimsy
• [26:46] — Building Jerry’s Lair & Small-Space Cinematography Challenges

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Tone & Style

The conversation is playful, witty, and affectionate—both about the show's characters and the behind-the-scenes process. There’s ongoing banter about rats, theater superstitions, and the joy (and occasional chaos) of working with legendary talent and elaborate sets.

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Conclusion

This behind-the-scenes episode demystifies the technical and creative wizardry behind Only Murders in the Building’s sixth episode of Season 3. The ghost light’s true meaning, the “Meryl Streep” of rats, Howard’s poignant spotlight moment, and the fracture of the intrepid trio all earn their due attention and celebration. The podcast affirms that the charm of Arconia is not only in the scripted mystery but also in the meticulous, passionate work of its production team.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where the production designer and showrunner delve deeper into the episode’s secrets and theater lore.

Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut Media.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, I had more questions about the rat, but you don't even know.

[Chris Koch]

Well, what?

Is the rat gone? Tell me the truth.

[Maggie Bowles]

Not gone completely, no. Hello, and welcome to Only Murders in the pod. I am Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And this season is a little different because we are not talking to the writers or actors, but we're still mining for clues and trying to figure out who the killer is. Before all is revealed in the season

[Ryan Tillotson]

finale, we'll be talking to directors, editors, and other key members of the production team and piecing it all together.

[Maggie Bowles]

Today on the show, we speak with the director of this episode, episode six, Chris Koch. Plus, editors Peyton Koch, no relation. And Shelley Westerman. And the director of photography, Kyle Wolschlager.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll talk about some of the secrets hidden within Jerry's lair, how Chris approaches filming a suspect, and Howard's moment in the spotlight. See what I did?

[Maggie Bowles]

I see it. Yeah. But first, a quick recap.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Episode 6, Ghost Light. We start with Howard's voiceover. He's telling us about the history of the Gooseberry Theater and about Gideon's curse.

[Oliver]

Howard, what's wrong?

[Howard]

I have something I need to confess. I killed Ben Glenroy.

[Maggie Bowles]

Howard shows up at Mabel's apartment, which is looking very good, and tells the trio that he killed Ben Glenroy because he didn't sweep Gideon's ghost off the stage on opening night.

[Ryan Tillotson]

He couldn't get to the broom because KT's office was locked for some reason. And he also saw Gideon's ghost one

[Maggie Bowles]

time in the theater, Charles tells Mabel and Oliver about Joy. Oliver's got a fake new tooth, and Tubbert is hanging around in a towel.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The trio heads to the theater with President McKinley the fish to investigate. The ghost light goes off and two sandbags fall from the rafters, nearly hitting us.

[Howard]

That's exactly how Gideon died.

[Maggie Bowles]

In KT's office, Mabel finds the cast sign in sheet and realizes she can compare the handwriting with the handwriting in the mirror.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oliver gets to the dressing room first and compares Loretta's writing with the mirror, and it's a pretty solid match. He's getting ready to tell Charles and Mabel when he hears a sound and goes to investigate.

[Maggie Bowles]

He discovers Jerry Blau has been squatting in a secret room in the theater. Jerry.

[Chris Koch]

Jerry Blau.

[Oliver]

Oliver.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, thank God.

[Oliver]

A fellow director.

[Chris Koch]

You shouldn't sneak up on people like that, Jerry. I'm not a young man. You couldn't give me a heart attack.

[Maggie Bowles]

And Jerry is the ghost that Howard saw and Jerry also tells Oliver, with the help of some weird puppets, about Ben and Loretta's fight on opening night where she called him a fucking pig and Charles punched Bin. He also gives Oliver a pep talk about indecision and tells him to choose what's important to him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Meanwhile, Charles has accidentally locked himself in a closet with President McKinley. While in there, he flushes the fish, but the fish comes back. He fogs himself and records a farewell video before remembering he can pick the lock and get out, because of course you can pick locks. The trio is all on their own. Except that Tobert shows up. He says he tailed Jonathan and followed him here.

[Maggie Bowles]

We learned that Jonathan is really, really stressed out about being the lead and he was buying Ben's special leading man cocktail of drugs, beta blockers, hgh, Propecia, and dash of myth.

[Ryan Tillotson]

KT tells Howard she was not the one who locked her office door on opening night. With KT's director skills and Howard's acting skills, dreams they both had when they were younger, they get the ghost light to turn back on.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes, it's working okay, Face it up.

[Chris Koch]

I'll never rest until we're together as we were meant to be.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes, feel him inside you, Gideon. When the trio is finally reunited, back in Ben's dressing room, all of them is cleaning the lipstick off the mirror. Destroying evidence.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, no. They all get into it, with Oliver telling Mabel about Charles punching Ben and also saying some mean things to Mabel. Charles quits the play and Mabel tells him about Cinda's offer and quits the podcast.

[Maggie Bowles]

Everyone's mad at each other.

[Oliver]

A man is dead. A man who actually meant something to me. And I'm gonna figure out who did it, whether the two of you give a shit or not.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm done.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Welcome back. To Kick It Off. When we talked to Peyton Koch and Shelley Westerman, the two editors, Peyton told us about a very fun fact about a certain four legged cast member.

[Chris Koch]

When Oliver is up in Jerry's lair and they. The rat goes behind him and then he, you know, Jerry kills the rat and he's like. Oliver's like, oh my God, is that a rat? And so originally, Jerry picks up the rat and brings it over and like slams it on the grill and he's like cooking it up. And I mean, it's absurd.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Like, it's the kebabs or whatever they're making.

[Chris Koch]

Yeah, I mean, the absurdism is just, it's just beyond like. And I, I thought it was hysterical. And so did our director, Chris Koch, but then, you know, it Was a whole thing of, like, you know, it was a tight shot of the rat being, like, slammed on the grill, and it was very out there.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, I would have loved to see that, but.

[Chris Koch]

And then, you know, the producers came in, and they were like, oh, this is. This is too much. Like, we got to lose the rat. So then we literally had to paint it out with visual effects on the grill, because it was on the grill in the rest of these scenes. So we had to. We had the visual effects paint out the rat, cut anything about the rat getting cooked. It was like, this whole thing, you know, so. But I was sad about it for a while, and then I. And then I let it go. But it was really funny in the script, and the idea of it was super funny.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'd like to talk to the person who had to paint out the rat. How do we get them on the podcast?

[Chris Koch]

It was hard.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It was hard.

[Chris Koch]

It was a grill with the lines, and there was smoke coming out of it. I'm sure it was very hard to do, but they did a really good job. You would never have known the rat was there.

[Maggie Bowles]

I know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I had no idea.

[Maggie Bowles]

Although I did feel like it was implied that he was gonna eat that rat. You know what I mean?

[Kyle Wolschlager]

Right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes, I think. Yeah, I did think that. I don't know how I thought that, but I did.

[Chris Koch]

Yeah.

Well, we cut, because we kept that line where he goes, oh, you came on a good night. It was implying that. Oh, yeah, we got a fat one, like, dinner.

[Maggie Bowles]

He's definitely gonna eat that red.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's why.

[Chris Koch]

Oh, God.

[Maggie Bowles]

One other thing from the editors before we get into our interview with director Chris Koch.

[Chris Koch]

We use the flashbacks from the fight scene, and we used those in episode five and six, but they were from episode nine. So it was like a conversation between the three of us where Peggy was editing it, but then Shelly and I had to pull pieces for our episodes, and it was like, yeah, what do you show? And, like, is it going to be what's shown in episode nine? So there was this whole back and forth kind of like what you were just saying to make sure that we are, you know, doing it right and following it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting. Is this that our clue?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I think. Why not? Let's. Let's comb through those flashbacks, you know? Okay, now let's talk with Chris Koch. And you probably remember him if you listened last week. He also directed episode five.

[Chris Koch]

I love that. Five and six. I got five and six because I love the scripts. And having lived in New York for years and years, like, both to me are very New York stories. So, like, the first one's a love story and the second one's a ghost story.

Yeah.

And I, you know, I remember I emailed John, I said love and ghosts. That's New York. That's, that's New York City. So.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And they're both very different, so I got to work different muscles. And, and of course, I had Meryl in one of them, which was an absolute treat. Episode six was so much fun because it really was a ghost story. And that theater we were in, which was a united theater up in Jefferson Heights, I think up in Washington Heights, up in New York. And it's the theater where they have the Tonys. And I think Lin Manuel Miranda, like, was part of the rehab of it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh.

[Chris Koch]

Gorgeous hundred year old theater that had this incredible interior. And so it was just really fun to work in that space. And you know, and I mean, I started in feature, so to be cinematic and to do those kind of shots.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

Was just really fun.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Was the, the Jerry scene, right, with the rat, Was that in that space or was that in the studio?

[Maggie Bowles]

Jerry Blau.

[Chris Koch]

That was. Well, a little bit of both. His actual lair was built on stage.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Chris Koch]

I mean, how. He's amazing. I never laugh so hard on such. With Jerry just killed. He killed this guy. He's 80 years old. He's been on Broadway. He worked with Stephen Sondheim.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

I mean, he's, he's done everything and he was such a joy. He was. I, I, like I said, I've never laughed so hard working with somebody.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We heard through Shelly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That we had to lose some of the rat in the edit. Oh. Can you tell me about. Can you tell me about the rat?

[Maggie Bowles]

What? Can you tell me about the rat?

[Chris Koch]

I don't know how much of the rat we live now. This might be news to me. Sometimes I turn in director. I turn in director's cuts.

Oh.

And I don't see him again until they air. So.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Well, you'll see, I guess. What happened to the rat?

[Chris Koch]

Well. What.

Is the rat gone? Tell me the truth.

[Maggie Bowles]

Not gone completely. No.

[Chris Koch]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

We see the rat go by in the, in the cut. We see you see the rat go by and he throws the shoe at it. But that's, that's all we get.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And there's no rat on the grill

[Maggie Bowles]

and they had to paint.

[Chris Koch]

Okay, that's fair enough.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

The rat in the grill was always questionable whether that would stay. There's a little. A little much.

[Maggie Bowles]

They Said they had to go in and literally paint it out of the grill, off of the grill in post.

[Chris Koch]

So I guess they just didn't. I. So my guess is, in the end, they didn't want him to be too insane.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

Because if someone's actually eating a rat.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right.

[Chris Koch]

That's insanity. But you still.

[Maggie Bowles]

There's still. It's still pretty clear that he's gonna eat it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

He's like, when he says it's a juicy one or something, he says like,

[Maggie Bowles]

you came on a good night.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You came on a good night. That's what it is.

[Chris Koch]

Okay. But, like, here's one of those other crazy, like, kismet things. Like, you know, we know we got to have a real rat walk across the railing on the wall behind Oliver.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And so we have a trained rat. We make a little piece of molding that's a little thicker, so it's a little platform for him. And we're like, relax. It's going to be a long time. And first take the rat does it perfectly in the first. I mean, it was, like. Could not have been more perfect.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Those trained rats.

[Maggie Bowles]

That rat was a pro.

[Chris Koch]

Train rats.

[Maggie Bowles]

The Meryl Streep of rats.

[Chris Koch]

You always make the mist take up. Great. Let's get another one.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And then you never get it. It doesn't even like the rat because the rat is like, I did it for you once.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

What do you want? I don't need to do it again.

[Maggie Bowles]

I've done my job.

[Chris Koch]

Yeah. Why are we doing this again?

[Maggie Bowles]

So this is a really. Howard sent Howard heavy episode. I love his voiceover. I love learning about Gideon's curse, and I love his moment on the stage when he gets to. Well, first of all, when we learn his backstory of his mother telling him, don't do that voice. Your voice is shrill or something. Can you just tell us about working with Michael? Michael, Cyril Crichton, and Howard and that experience?

[Chris Koch]

I'm so happy that 6 is, like, such a big episode for him, because he just crushes it. He brings this sort of scared, manic energy to the ghost story. And so he would inspire me to do things that I hadn't even planned on. Like when he's telling his story about how he didn't end up being an actor, you know, and he looks up and a spotlight hits him, and then the spotlight goes away. But, like, we hadn't planned on that. But just seeing him and the energy he brought to it made me realize I could go into his headspace a little bit.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

Because you know, and sort of get a little more. I mean, that's kind of what I loved about episode six is you could do a little bit more magical realism in it, for sure, which the show. The show does all the time, which I love. But, like, five was less of that. Five was pretty straight ahead. Three love stories. But we could have a lot of fun in six with a lot of magical realism and Gideon the ghost, and maybe seeing him, maybe not. And, you know, I love the opening with Howard sweeping alone and seeing Gideon out in the theater.

[Maggie Bowles]

And he goes, oh, hello, Is someone there?

[Chris Koch]

I know, Krav Maga.

[Howard]

And there he was in his signature cap and red coat. I said, gideon Gooseberry, is that you? And he said, sure.

[Chris Koch]

You know, he does big stuff, but it never feels too broad to me. Like, it's just. It's just pitch perfect. And he's very focused on his craft and very serious about what he's bringing to each scene. And it shows.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, he's great.

[Maggie Bowles]

We're big fans of his.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

I die a thousand deaths. Vigor.

[Chris Koch]

A thousand deaths.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes. It's working. Okay. Face it up.

[Chris Koch]

I'll never rest until we're together as

[Howard]

we were meant to be.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes. Feel him inside you, Gideon.

[Chris Koch]

Look, I've been doing this for a long time, and I'm lucky to have worked on a lot of the big old studios. And there was. There's almost always a ghost light for real.

[Maggie Bowles]

Really?

[Chris Koch]

Even. Even on sound stages. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So I had no idea.

[Maggie Bowles]

So wait, so this. This is a.

[Chris Koch]

It's a thing.

[Maggie Bowles]

This is a thing.

[Chris Koch]

It's like. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a luck. It's like a good luck thing.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. It's like saying, the Scottish play.

[Chris Koch]

Yeah, exactly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Or saying, break a leg.

[Chris Koch]

It is a theater thing, but it's certainly. There have been ghost lights, especially, like, Paramount or some of the older stages that I've been on. It's not unusual to see a ghost light.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Should we get a ghost light for our studio?

[Chris Koch]

Yes, you should definitely, definitely get a ghost light for your studio.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, that's interesting. That's something I never knew.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow. So in this episode, we're getting really suspicious of Jonathan, actually.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. How do you approach it when you're like, you know, obviously you. You get the script and, you know, like, they're setting up Jonathan as a suspect here. How do you approach the way that you're shooting it or. Or any of that stuff?

[Chris Koch]

Well, again, I. I. Since I purposely don't know who it is. And I. And that's part of the reason because I basically approach each person as if they are a real suspect.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

Because that's the goal, right? If, if, if it's. If it's misdirection, and I want it to be effective misdirection.

[Maggie Bowles]

Smart.

[Chris Koch]

You know, and that's how I approach Jonathan, for sure.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Helps you to not know the murderer because you want to be.

[Maggie Bowles]

Everyone's a suspect.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Everyone's a suspect.

[Chris Koch]

Yeah. And I don't subconsciously want to treat a scene differently. If I know somebody is just. It's just a red herring. So like when I'm shooting that scene with Jonathan, I don't. I have my suspicions, but I don't know. And so I treat it very earnestly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

Six was crazy. It has so much. Because then you have Charles in the closet with the fish.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Because it's like President McKinnon. Like, it's. It all happens in such a small space and it's just like so funny, you know? And then when this fog machine goes off. Yeah, that's. Yeah. Can. What can you tell us.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Tell us about that scene with. With Steve Martin in the closet.

[Maggie Bowles]

Because he's in the closet for most of the episode.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I think so.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know.

[Chris Koch]

You know what's great about that was that Steve, we're in the closet. And the one kind of hinky thing was like, how do you set up a fog machine randomly that's in a closet? And so luckily we had a remote because it was like, oh, does he bump it with his foot? But all of it felt kind of stagey. So to make it more of a, like a bit that we can embrace, we had a remote, as often they do, which it looks like a square. And so, you know, he brilliantly grabs it and assumes that it's some sort of intercom.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And in pressing the remote, he triggers the fog machine, which is a. Which was a. Which was an acceptable and funny way to. To set up a fog machine.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And then he goes. And then, you know, he. It's just. It's so much fun to watch him go full on Steve, when the fog is engulfing him and his hand is

[Ryan Tillotson]

up in the air, he does this video too.

[Chris Koch]

If you are seeing this video, it

means that I am dead.

I perished alone with only a fish as my witness. Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, charles, why didn't you scream? Well, I did. Why didn't you call somebody on your phone? Because I'm in A closet with no bars. Why didn't you use your Jimmy keys? Jimmy keys?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hello, baby.

[Chris Koch]

I mean, six had so many pieces, so many balls in the air. And we were, you know, both on in that theater, and we had built the bowels of the theater on stage. And so was remembering all the little bits and pieces and then, you know, reusing a hallway, but then changing something so that when Mabel is coming down the hallway, it's not the hallway that Steve was just. You know what I mean? Like, so it was really fun to be clever about how to reuse our spaces and kind of hide where we were.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Chris Koch]

But get all those little pieces that we need to get. Like. Like, for instance, I'll shot down a hallway with a door that's shot with smoke coming out underneath to remind the audience. And that's the closet that he's stuck in.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

You know,

[Maggie Bowles]

we're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, Chris walks us through the big fight and DP Kyle Wolschlager tells us about suspicious lighting and reused set pieces.

[Oliver]

Senda was right.

[Chris Koch]

What does that mean? Senda Canning.

[Oliver]

Senda Fucking Canning asked me to partner with her, and I said that I was already part of a team. She said that I don't need you guys. And I'm starting to see that she's right. All I do is put up with your self involved insanity. The musical, the White Room, the proposal. But a man is dead. A man who actually meant something to me. And I'm gonna figure out who did it, whether the two of you give a shit or not.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm done.

[Chris Koch]

And Selina, I mean, Selina in that scene was incredible. I mean, that's the first time, I think, in the series that all three have, like, mutually parted ways.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I think so.

[Chris Koch]

And they really. I mean, it was a really intense scene to be part of and just be in the room and watch. You know, we didn't do a ton of takes, but every time we did a take, all three of them were at 100. And every take was amazing to watch. So that was a really gratifying ending to six and a powerful. A powerful scene.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, that scene.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I was like, ooh, what's, you know, what's happening with our trio?

[Maggie Bowles]

Get it?

[Chris Koch]

What's happening? I know. Is that it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know, I know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. We don't want them to fight. We don't want mom and dad and dad to fight.

[Ryan Tillotson]

No. Mom and dad and dad.

[Chris Koch]

No. When I saw Selena was building up to that scene that was later in the day. And so she was. She had it at the ready. She was ready for that scene and she killed it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know exactly what the question is, but I'd love to talk about Mabel and Tobert. He's like, weaseling his way in somehow, is what it feels like.

[Maggie Bowles]

Ryan really doesn't trust.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't trust him.

[Chris Koch]

You don't trust him?

[Maggie Bowles]

No, is. He's too handsome.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That must be it. That must be it.

[Maggie Bowles]

He can't be trusted.

[Chris Koch]

I think I trusted. I trusted him by the end.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You did.

[Chris Koch]

I felt like, you know, okay. Yeah, I think I did. I mean, I love that. I love that, you know, Charles doesn't trust him or they just. They just don't want a new cook in the kitchen with him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

They're jealous. Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

Which is very funny. And Charles gets it. But I also think it's suspicious that he shows up at the theater. That's what I'm saying.

[Maggie Bowles]

It is suspicious. Right? Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And had I. And if I knew, I'd tell you, but I don't know, of course. So of course. Even I'm like, well, how do you come here?

[Maggie Bowles]

Well detailed, Jonathan, you know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm just here believing everything.

[Chris Koch]

I know, I know, but I thought that there. I thought that their romantic scene at the end is really earned and. Yeah, I think they have a really. I thought they have a really beautiful chemistry together.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, they do.

[Oliver]

Charles, Oliver,

[Chris Koch]

Robert.

[Maggie Bowles]

Wow.

[Chris Koch]

Look, I know that you wanted to be with your guys. Okay. But I decided to tail Jonathan and he led me right here to the theater. That's him.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right.

[Chris Koch]

Come on, let's go. Maybe. Unhand me.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, yes. Hey.

[Oliver]

I'm glad you came.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Was there anything that was just particularly difficult when you guys were shooting?

[Chris Koch]

I think it's just the size of the shows and the days that you have. Yeah, that's always a challenge. I mean, doing this shows there, like each episode's like a little feature, so. Which is what I love about it. And there's a sort of traditional quality to it as well, which I love, which is appealing to me, so. But that takes time.

[Maggie Bowles]

What do you mean when you say traditional quality? It's.

[Chris Koch]

You know, there's. In some ways, I've always felt the show has a great kind of an old timey Hollywood feel to it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It does. I feel like it does.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

[Chris Koch]

And there's some nice traditional. I say Versus TV today, where a lot of stuff can be handheld or on the shoulder. I do a lot of shows that Are that. And that's very common in tv. But this is not. This is very stately. It's designed. Cameras are on dollies. There's like got a beautiful sort of elegant vision to it. And I also think then, like I said earlier, that you can have these moments of magical realism in all three seasons. And John Hoff and the showrunner, if you pitch him something is totally open to, oh, yeah, go do that. Like, you know, if. If Howard's gonna look up and make a speech and we hit him with a non existent spotlight that's only in his head, great, let's do it. And it's so effective emotionally too. It's not just a gimmick. It's poignant and sad when he talks about his dream dying and the spotlight goes off.

[Howard]

You know, this is the closest I've ever come to my dream job and I fucked it up.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Your dream job was to be an assistant?

[Howard]

No, an actor. I always wanted to act. But then in junior high, I got cast as John Proctor in the Crucible. It was thrilling at first, feeling the spotlight warm my face the first time I delivered my big monologue. But after the show, my mother told me my stage voice was matronly and shrill. She said she never wanted to hear me use that voice again in. So I quit before I even began.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Another person who helped bring that magical moment to life was DP Kyle Volsugar.

[Kyle Wolschlager]

That's a total magical realism moment. And the show, especially this season, lent itself to being a little bit more whimsical because you're in the theater and that's like, why not take the opportunity? We were on a stage. We did use lights that were up on that stage to point over at him and do that.

[Chris Koch]

But

[Kyle Wolschlager]

totally magical realism at that moment. And so fun to do that because it does give you that little bit of a moment with Howard. You're in his brain, you're in his little realization or moment telling his little story there of his history. And so it does. It sets it up in a nice way. I love doing that kind of stuff.

[Maggie Bowles]

I feel like the structure for the show a lot of the time is every episode we have a new suspect that the trio's kind of investigating or most suspicious of. And I'm wondering about what you're thinking about with shots and angles and even lighting, I would imagine, for like how we view the suspect that they're investigating in that episode.

[Kyle Wolschlager]

Sure, yeah. I think a lot of that is often dictated by the director for that episode. Chris Koch comes to mind for Episodes five and six, which are two of my favorite episodes, they were a lot of fun to shoot. And in that we, you know, we go on these hunts across, like, into the theater or looking at potential, you know, potential suspects out at a restaurant or whatever that is, you know, jazz club, for instance. And I think that's in episode six. I could be wrong. It might be episode five. Your shots are going to be dictated by the space. But like you're saying, you might. You might be thinking of somebody who. You want to find them to be a little bit more suspicious or whatever else. Just the way that light hits somebody's face. So, like, having something come from a little bit underneath is immediately going to just give that sinister vibe. And I can think of an exact instance where we did that with Ashley Park Kimber at the end of Meryl's Song the Lullaby in episode three there, I think. And just that little. There was like an offset in the actual space in Oliver's rehearsal space there. There was a little stage light that was coming up naturally already there. I didn't have to fake that. And I always want to try use kind of what's in the space to make it feel natural. I don't want to just introduce a bunch of light all of a sudden coming up underneath somebody's face. So it worked perfectly that she could kind of just creep from behind the curtain and catch that right there. And I think you're always just looking for those opportunities and then augmenting and enhancing a little bit more, maybe, but finding stuff that's going to feel natural that way. So it's a little bit of reading what's coming in from a window light or whatever that is, and then pushing it as much as we can to kind of give that vibe.

[Ryan Tillotson]

When we spoke to Chris, actually, he was telling us about shooting in the theater because we had a lot of questions about that tiny space where Jerry's hiding out in and eating rats.

[Kyle Wolschlager]

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But that space actually wasn't. You guys built it, right?

[Kyle Wolschlager]

That's right. Yeah. A lot of. Yeah, that's a piece of set that we built. It's actually, you know, not to spoil the secret too much, but it's right behind Charles's apartment on the stage. It's literally. I think it shares walls with the bathroom in season two that Charles and Marty, or, sorry, Marty and Steve, that Charles and Oliver would run in and out of. There's actually a wall back there that set shared a little space with. And, you know, relying on Patrick Howe or Zeider to creepy spaces. You never know exactly what you're gonna get. And we walked into that first time and everybody got nervous. It's like, oh, wow, this is. This is really small. It's tight. And I don't know how it feels to somebody who wasn't there but shooting inside of it, because we could pull a wall here or there to sort of get a camera where we needed it to. But we try to do that as little as possible because it just. It does suck up time. And getting the lighting correct in those spaces, everything is a challenge because you can't light from far away, you have to rely on smaller units close to their faces that sometime sometimes can read as fake. And I think overall, like our. The gaffer on the show, John Alcantara, did a fantastic job working with me and his guys to make sure that we were always fighting what was going to be most believable, even in those tiny spaces. Because in some ways through the season, it felt like the story and show got bigger and bigger, but our sets and the spaces that we were shooting in got smaller and smaller.

[Maggie Bowles]

Speaking of, Patrick Howell, the production designer, will be back in a couple of days for part two of our coverage of the episode and we'll be talking to him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Also, John Hoffman tells us about Twyla, the theater ghost.

[Maggie Bowles]

See you then.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Bye. Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt and only Murders Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin as a Rocket, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Neighbor, and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

We miss you.

[Chris Koch]

So.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, it is. It does.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It is. It does have a lot of it's, you know, because I guess the trio splits up and you need to follow them all.