Patrick Howell (1:59)

I'm putting on my glasses so that I can look. Watch you snicker at each other. No, it's a great. It's a totally great question. And yeah, none of it's practical. It's just all there for dressing and. And the sound designers are doing their. Their own body miking and room miking like they normally would for any other set. And you know, and again, that's just, you know, crossing your fingers at what with what time we have to research. And in the case of that, the Susanna McCarthy, the. The prop masters, her position selects microphones and like, literally, a set decorator would have to provide a microphone. Like, if it was a microphone at a podium, the. The decorator would be getting the podium and the part of the. In the stand for the microphone. And then still the prop master would be actually, you know, renting or buying the microphone.

Ryan Tillotson (2:56)

I get anything she touches.

Maggie Bowles (2:58)

Right.

Ryan Tillotson (2:58)

That's how that works.

Patrick Howell (3:00)

And yeah, a lot of it is. I think that a lot of the gray area tries to be not gray by, you know, the minute it's touched by an actor, it becomes a hand prop.

Maggie Bowles (3:12)

Yeah, well, so. So for episode six, we spend, I think maybe the entire episode, almost the entire episode at the theater. At the Gooseberry Theater. Can you tell us about the different parts of the theater and what you were thinking about what the inspiration was?

Patrick Howell (3:32)

Sure. So, fortunately, they have the United Palace Theater as the real location for our fictitiously named Gooseberry Theater. It's a beautiful house for sure, holding over 3,000 people, you know, way larger than any real Broadway theater. So pretty much was able to use the house the way it was. Pretty much everything else was a build on stage.

Ryan Tillotson (3:56)

Like Jerry's Lair.

Patrick Howell (3:57)

Yeah, Jerry's lair is a build on stage and all of the dressing rooms in the dressing room hallway and all of that. So Jerry's Lair was fun to do. There was really not any description in the script so much, but when talking with John about it, it was like, yes, I really want it to be small, you know, tiny little kind of crawl space. I mean, the scripts might have said Jerry, down on his luck, has been squatting there for months and people don't know it. And when he's, you know, has a hot plate to make meals and stuff like that.

Ryan Tillotson (4:30)

Like, what other. What other kind of things did you include into the lair that I probably didn't even notice?

Maggie Bowles (4:37)

Yeah. Is there any. Any fun Easter eggs in Jerry's lair?

Patrick Howell (4:40)

Maybe is a little less Easter eggy than. Than some of the sets. But, you know, the. Certainly Than Ben Glenroy's or then Loretta's apartment. But I think we inserted some rolls of wallpaper, you know, from previous set, as if it was leftover building materials from some play or something like that. And. But I don't know if we honed in on anything about the character. I mean, I did do a lot of research on the Broadway houses and. And all of them built at that time really did have a lot of. Had a really nice penthouse apartments for. For the producers or owners of the theater. You know, some quite elaborate with big marble fireplaces and and things. So. So I found some good research that, you know, some spaces that were too large, but it gave me a sense of wanting to show the top architecture of the building. So I was trying to create that Garrett sense and the. With the oval window and the sloped roof and then it be this tiny space. But most of all, I had wanted it to be awkward to get into. I was hoping that selling that. Selling this weird little carved out leftover space that somebody could actually squat in, and nobody that worked at the theater would expect it would, you know, the way to sell that would be, like,

Ryan Tillotson (6:11)

tough to get to.

Patrick Howell (6:13)

Yeah, hard to get to. So I had put in the spiral staircase that you see in the dressing room corridors. I had put that in with the hopes of maybe when we get to this episode, that can be, you know, I wanted that to be how you got to Jerry's life.

Ryan Tillotson (6:30)

Hello? Is someone there? I also know Krav Maga. Hello?

Patrick Howell (6:40)

So I wanted him to take that circuitous route up the spiral stairs and have to, like, step up through what I was trying to sell as, like, a little utility door, not a regular hallway door.

Ryan Tillotson (6:53)

I want to get back to something that you said earlier. You said maybe not as many Easter eggs as Ben's or Loretta's apartments. And I would like to know.

Maggie Bowles (7:04)

Well, I'm, like, obsessed with Loretta's apartment. It's so cool. I would love to hear just about what went into putting that together. And also I, you know, if there are Easter eggs, love to hear those too. So let's start with Loretta's, and then we can talk about Ben's for sure.

Patrick Howell (7:21)

Well, and. And I'm gonna have to provide you along a laundry list of the Easter eggs when I talk to Richard Murray, to Rich Murray about it, because he's the queen of coming up with Easter eggs. And he loves it. And he loves it for doing. Having it as an aspect for the audience, but also really part of his decorating process to come up, you know, to think through the characters enough. He often sort of thinks through the actors that are playing the character, and it helps him flesh out, like, the whole quality of how he's going to decorate. So that being said, Loretta's. I love doing Loretta's because, again, with conversation with John, you know, she was a person of extremely modest means, played by Meryl, who was gonna play Loretta at the age Meryl is. And she'd been in that apartment for 40 years. And it was, you know, and it was this tiny studio, so. Meaning, like, she didn't come from money. She was a very creative person. And so there was license for it to be pretty and attractive and homey and full of spirit and wit and charm and stuff. So generally, if you have a. In real life, a small New York studio apartment, that of us, let's say a senior citizen who's lived there for 40 years, nine out of 10 are going to be very chock a block and cluttered. And that was the last thing. I did not want to present that vibe at all. I wanted it packed and saturated with things, but in a very, very curated and tidy and organized way. So it was, I think, a lot of it. I don't know that a lot of it you ever wound up seeing in. But for example, the raised platform area, I wanted a separate reading book for her where Loretta would read her plays and study and little touches like that.

Maggie Bowles (9:17)

So what about Ben's apartment? I want to say, when we talked to John, he told us that Ben moves into the suite, you know, kind of like subletting for Amy Schumer or something like that. Taking over Amy Schumer's space.

Patrick Howell (9:31)

Right.

Maggie Bowles (9:32)

So what went into making that space bends.

Ryan Tillotson (9:35)

They're. They're in the armoire mostly.

Maggie Bowles (9:37)

And that's.

Ryan Tillotson (9:38)

We see it from the armoire, you know, the. The whole space.

Patrick Howell (9:40)

Right, right. And that. Yeah, it's introduced in episode three. So the struggle is having the set look recognizable enough but then wanting it to be visually different so that it's new, new decor and new to the audience and fun for us to do with Ben Glenroy's apartment. You know, there's only the dialogue that, like in the episode one, when Ben says to Oliver, I'm glad I got Annie's apartment, or thanks, Amen in her apartment. Tell her she left some cottage cheese in the refrigerator or whatever. You know, like that's the only line where you. Where the audience knows that he's living in. Subletting her apartment. You know, the only directive for Ben's in the script was open on a room that is a Hard Rock Cafe. Amount of memorabilia to, you know, to the movie star Ben Glenroy. And just reading that one, that was a one sentence description where it was like, okay, say no more. We don't need to discuss this any further. And then John had also said it and he had talked about how there would be this, you know, he's a. He's cobra, which is, you know, is this fictitious superhero star. And so you can have as much snake references as you want in the apartment. So I set off to. I Set off to make a giant cobra gold snake for the foyer part, which you see, you know, right when they come off the elevator.

Maggie Bowles (11:18)

Oh, yeah, I love that snake.

Patrick Howell (11:20)

Actually, Hulu publicity just asked for. To go. Could. Could I please send it to Los Angeles for. For something And. But I. Logistically, I have a feeling that's not going to happen. But anyway, so I set out to do the snake and Rich went to town on all of these different fictitious artists that would make portraits of Ben Glenroy and. And he and his decorating team, Lindsay and others. And it was really about. It's really about researching Paul Rudd in terms of Easter eggs and, you know, making a nod to things in his career. There was. There were bowls with little candies in them that are from this candy store that Paul happens to own in Rhinebeck, N.Y. and T shirts and swag from that store that he just went and bought. And Paul Rudd was a bat Mitzvah DJ at one point in real life.

Maggie Bowles (12:17)

I've seen that. I've seen video of that.

Ryan Tillotson (12:19)

Oh, that's great.

Patrick Howell (12:20)

Right. So. So our decorator Lindsay found that video and then that turned into making a doll, like a Ken doll type doll of. Of Paul Rudd as a dj.

Ryan Tillotson (12:37)

I saw the doll and the.

Patrick Howell (12:38)

Yeah. All the packaging, everything. And I think you see the. Anne's apartment first. And it's also. And it's also in his own apartment. And, you know, and there's just no end of the things he came up with. There's. There's like sequin pillows of Paul Rudd's face as you need. Yeah. And there's. Who doesn't need that on their sofa and.

Maggie Bowles (13:00)

Yeah.

Patrick Howell (13:00)

And like. And socks and, you know, and then all these portraits. The. There's like the Damien Hurst inspired sequin, but. Or not, you know, rhinestone, rather bust of Paul that's in. It's on a pedestal in a set.

Ryan Tillotson (13:14)

I would imagine he would want to take some of these things home There. That's Paul Rudd, all right.

Patrick Howell (13:20)

Yeah. And he went. So we did all this stuff and. And you know, it was like over the top with Easter eggs. And he was never gonna have a scene in the apartment. You know, he's dead and, you know.

Maggie Bowles (13:34)

Oh, right, of course. Yeah.

Patrick Howell (13:35)

After a while we knew we could tell that, like, he's not even going to be in a flashback of when he was still, you know, in the apartment. So he. He never acted in it. But we took him over to show him everything and he loved it. And I did suggest. Paul, why don't you. There was a few things he wanted. Oh, could I have this? I love this. I think one of those things might have been the. The Bob Mitzvah DJ doll and the sequence pillow.

Ryan Tillotson (14:01)

Those are the two things I would want. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, John Hoffman tells us about Howard and KT's moment on stage and his own ghost light experience. Here is co creator and showrunner John Hoffman.

Maggie Bowles (14:26)

I loved getting Howard's backstory and his moment on stage. And KT has her dreams of being a director and she gets to kind of like flex that for a minute. Could you. Could you tell us a little bit about that scene and that dynamic with Howard and kt?

John Hoffman (14:41)

Yeah, I love the two actors particularly, and so it was thrilling to see, and they know each other from the theater world in New York, but the parts themselves, you know, there's this thread of a contentious relationship between. Between Howard and KT throughout season three that's introduced right at the top, right. Right in 301. You know, with. With surrounding that hanky and the dissing and that's going on and the. It's not hard to imagine Howard overstepping his responsibilities as the assistant to the director. And likely we had various conversations that were happening in various moments of different scripts where KT and Howard would get into it. And it's like her explaining, you're not the assistant director, you're the assistant to the director. And the separation of powers between that role and stage manager and all of that felt really fun to play with, but then opening up a possibility for kind of coming together in this moment in the theater, in a scary moment, and being able to sort of solve each other's emotional distress in this episode felt just like a lovely little potential arc for them. So. And then they just played it perfectly.

Ryan Tillotson (16:07)

Gideon, are you there? Oh, come on. Use your stage voice. Sing out, Louise.

Patrick Howell (16:16)

Oh, Gideon.

Ryan Tillotson (16:17)

Your stage voice. Oh, Gideon.

Patrick Howell (16:21)

We come not to banish but to praise you.

Ryan Tillotson (16:25)

Join us so we may finish your great unfinished work. Don't forget to direct me.

Maggie Bowles (16:32)

Oh, okay. Oh, Irene.

Ryan Tillotson (16:39)

How could a poor sweep like me

Patrick Howell (16:41)

ever hope to win the love of

Maggie Bowles (16:42)

a fine lady like yourself?

Ryan Tillotson (16:44)

It's a strong start. Thanks.

Maggie Bowles (16:46)

Have you seen many ghost lights?

John Hoffman (16:48)

Absolutely. The thing about the theater, which I love and we talked a lot about this, was the rituals and the patterns of behavior and the traditions, and they're really adhered to. I actually had this weird experience. I'd been an actor for many years, and then I started writing more and I was more of A writer and I was a director a little bit. And then my friend Lisa Krohn asked me to be in a play, her first play that went to Broadway. And I went and was in this. I may have told this story on here, I'm not sure. But the thing that happened, going back to the theater after those years of just being in Hollywood, because my glamorous Hollywood life. No, but it sounds very glamorous. But going back to the theater in that, especially on Broadway. I'd never been in a Broadway show before, so it was like, oh, I'm at an elevated thing that I remember from when I was on the stage as an actor years ago. But watching and learning and like, oh, from the stage manager, from the way everyone approached every day of rehearsal, from the table read from up through dress rehearsals, where an invited audience was there and when the critic was there and when all of that happened, very much informs this season of this show because it was sort of my own view of it at that time, really got imprinted on all of the ways in which each actor had their own rituals. Each. You know, what makes someone calm, what makes someone do their best work. And the theater itself built on all of these rituals. About half hour and the half hour call and the sign in sheets and the ghost light that must go out at the end of a. It's all done in a very specific way that's just traditional. But I thought, boy, what a blast to use all of that. And the ghosts in a theater, you know, that's a big. I have known that since I was a kid, like that lore around theaters and potential ghosts in theaters.

Ryan Tillotson (19:03)

Is this ghost based off of any ghost? Yeah, yeah, Gideon, based off of any particular.

John Hoffman (19:09)

Well, there was. There have been a few. And we had big talks in the writer's room about this. But when I was growing up, I grew up in Ohio and there was a theater in Ohio that, if I'm not wrong, the ghost was named Twyla. But that was a very. There were many specific stories of hauntings from Twyla at this theater. And everyone, oh, you know, they related to Twyla. If you were performing in that theater, if you'd been in that theater, everyone was, oh, did you have a Twyla moment? And things like that. And, you know, the whole season is built on lore around the theater. The episode four, which was the White Room, is all a part of that too. You know, that's a theater staple. So using all of that stuff from my own memory and also just getting it affirmed by the people who are working in the theater right now today, who are also in our writers rooms, like, sad, says Goldberg. Just saying.

Maggie Bowles (20:05)

Yep.

John Hoffman (20:05)

That still goes on. Yep. No, you would never do that. Yep. Can't do that. Not allowed. Stuff like that. All the rules and rituals.

Maggie Bowles (20:13)

Did you ever have a Twyla moment?

John Hoffman (20:14)

Oh, I wish I did. No, I never did. But I remembered hearing stories that were just very imprinting. And I mean, the truth is, I always looked at a theater as. Well. We could get very deep into therapy on this one. But, I mean, when I first walked into a theater was like seventh grade, and it felt like church. And I preferred that to real church. And I made it my own church, really.

Ryan Tillotson (20:42)

I love that.

John Hoffman (20:44)

And so that in my head, I remember specifically relating to it in that way and treating it that way. I think a lot of people can do that. If you're interested in that. If you're as. I think it's the opening line of the whole season. If you're theatrically inclined, chances are you were. You know, it happened when you were very young. That's Steve's opening voiceover narration of the whole season. All the world's a stage and all the blah, blah, blah. We all know how that one goes. But if you are a theatrical type, there's a good chance you became smitten at a very young age. Are you, Meg?

Maggie Bowles (21:28)

Are you theatrically inclined, you think? I. I mean, I. I love the theater. My dad was a theater teacher. He ran the theater department at a high school in LA for 20 years, which is why I'm, like, surprised. I never saw a ghost light in my life. But maybe they're all too small. Maybe small theaters don't do it as much as bigger theaters.

Ryan Tillotson (21:44)

Maybe not school theaters. Is there a ghost at a school theater?

Maggie Bowles (21:46)

Well, but even like, you know, community college theaters and like theater 40, that is strange.

John Hoffman (21:52)

Well, in some ways it's strange. In some ways it's not. Usually it is put out when they're. It. It's like not in use. So it's for overnight late. You know, it doesn't sit there during rehearsals. They get that out of there.

Maggie Bowles (22:09)

Yeah, yeah, it's possible. I saw it. The other thing I want to ask about is this is. I want to say it's the first time we've ever seen, like, a big fight between the trio. Like, I was trying to remember. There's been tensions, but I don't think they've ever had a blowout like this.

Ryan Tillotson (22:30)

Mabel's like, I quit.

Maggie Bowles (22:31)

Oliver, what the fuck are you doing?

Ryan Tillotson (22:33)

You know, you are like a dog with a bone. Mabel, they arrested someone for Ben's murder, remember? And yet you keep trying to throw suspicion onto my cast. You know, I know you've never had a grown up job before, but guess what?

John Hoffman (22:46)

They matter.

Maggie Bowles (22:48)

Wow.

John Hoffman (22:49)

Oliver.

Maggie Bowles (22:50)

Yeah, Mabel has a really strong emotional moment. Oliver is really mean, kind of to everybody. And I guess Charles just kind of stays Charles.

John Hoffman (23:04)

But it was a big day on set that day when they were doing that scene. And it's upsetting. You know, we were all very upset. I still can't watch it without tearing up. Honestly. I think there's something so heartbreaking about it because you love them and you've seen in this season the disconnects that have occurred and have grown and hoping that it's gonna come back together. And I think the beginning of this episode, there's. You see Mabel light up and say, this will be fun. The three of us back together. I've been wanting to do this. And then just when they're getting back together, there's this absolutely infuriating. And they're all caught up in their own hauntings and the potential for the losses that they so much want to have happen in their lives. And they're frustrated and everything else, and. And they take it out on each other. And it was very specifically built that way for the season and their arcs as a trio. But it was hard to watch. And, boy, I was so thrilled and proud. They really cut loose and they didn't, like, color it in certain ways. There's really funny lines, but they're said in the most genuine way. The Chipotle Burritosodes. Burritosodes.

Maggie Bowles (24:31)

Yeah.

Ryan Tillotson (24:32)

Well, I'm so, so sorry for trying to breathe life into your dead career by putting you on Broadway.

John Hoffman (24:37)

My career was not dead. Did you know that Brazos wanted to do Burritosauds? 30 second bonus episodes available exclusively on the Chipotle app. But I said no, because I wanted to do this, which I realize now was a huge mistake.

Ryan Tillotson (24:52)

Oh, it was, huh?

John Hoffman (24:54)

And he turned them down. But he's really genuine in saying, like, that's how much I care about this. I turned down Burritosaudes. It's so dumb. But then it's.

Maggie Bowles (25:02)

It.

John Hoffman (25:03)

It holds because of those three at the level they're playing. And I think it will. I hope it's a. It's a painful surprise to see them go there. And I think we have to. I think that's the nature of the show, that it kind of like doesn't shy away from those moments, either. It's tonally interesting, this show, and fun to play with, but it can hold a lot. And that big, explosive scene, Selina in that scene, I agree, just kills it and breaks my heart. But, you know, they were all feeling it all takes. It was really amazing to watch them.

Patrick Howell (25:43)

A man is dead.

Maggie Bowles (25:44)

Dead. A man who actually meant something to me. And I'm going to figure out who did it, whether the two of you give a shit or not. I'm done. Okay, we're taking one more quick break, and when we come back, it is time for theories. Welcome back.

Ryan Tillotson (26:05)

Welcome back.

Maggie Bowles (26:06)

Before we get into our theories, there's something that I remembered that I wish I'd remembered when we were talking to Patrick or John, which is that I'm wondering if I found an Easter egg in the naming of the theater. Ghost Gideon.

Ryan Tillotson (26:22)

And you think Patrick would know?

Maggie Bowles (26:24)

Well, yeah. I mean, he was mentioning the Easter eggs with Ben Glenroy's apartment. Or maybe not. Maybe it's just something that some of the writers knew. I wish I could ask them.

Ryan Tillotson (26:35)

Okay, well, tell me.

Maggie Bowles (26:37)

Okay, so there's this video, this clip from when Paul Rudd and Jason Seagull were promoting the movie. I love you, man.

Ryan Tillotson (26:46)

Great movie.

Maggie Bowles (26:47)

Yeah. And, like, the joke is basically that they were doing a lot of their. A lot of their press stuff. Very, very high.

Ryan Tillotson (26:56)

Oh, really?

Maggie Bowles (26:57)

Yeah.

Patrick Howell (26:58)

Okay.

Maggie Bowles (26:58)

And so there's this video where Jason Siegel makes a joke about having an imaginary friend named Gideon. And then they kind of go into this thing where they're like, gideon, Gideon. Like, Gideon will get you. Okay, I'll play a little bit of it right now just so you can hear.

Ryan Tillotson (27:14)

Do you have bromances in your. In your lives? I have my same best friend since I was 12 years old. He's awesome and imaginary.

John Hoffman (27:23)

His name is Gideon. Yeah, he's great.

Ryan Tillotson (27:26)

He rides a unicorn and he visits

Patrick Howell (27:29)

you in your dreams.

Ryan Tillotson (27:32)

This has gone horribly awry.

Maggie Bowles (27:34)

Yes.

Ryan Tillotson (27:35)

I actually do have the same best friend from when I was 12 years old.

Maggie Bowles (27:38)

Right.

Ryan Tillotson (27:39)

Yeah. And his name is not Gideon. I like it that you're really laughing. And you're. Now you can't, like, stop. I'm just hungry.

Patrick Howell (27:47)

You are.

Ryan Tillotson (27:48)

You're hungry? I'm gonna start sweating. Oh, don't take off the hat. Oh, don't do this, you jerk. I can't take off my hat. You can't take off your hat? Is that entirely true? It's a mental compulsion.

Patrick Howell (28:01)

Otherwise, his head was.

John Hoffman (28:02)

Will fall off.

Ryan Tillotson (28:02)

Otherwise, Gideon will come and get us all and fly into the picture. I'm starting to feel the moon.

Patrick Howell (28:10)

Don't take off your don.

Ryan Tillotson (28:11)

Take off your magic hat. Jason Gideon will visit you, and. I'm sorry.

Maggie Bowles (28:17)

Gideon.

Ryan Tillotson (28:21)

No, no, I'm coming.

John Hoffman (28:24)

Gideon.

Ryan Tillotson (28:24)

I'm coming.

Maggie Bowles (28:25)

Gideon.

Patrick Howell (28:26)

Gideon. No. I have the same best friend since

Ryan Tillotson (28:30)

I was 12 years old. His name's Brian.

Patrick Howell (28:32)

He lived with me for the past couple years. He's in med school now, but.

Ryan Tillotson (28:36)

Okay. I mean, right. Maybe a writer saw it.

Maggie Bowles (28:39)

That feels like it's too coincidental for that not to be related to the naming of. Gideon.

Ryan Tillotson (28:46)

No. Gideon.

Maggie Bowles (28:47)

Gideon.

Ryan Tillotson (28:47)

No, I think you're right.

Maggie Bowles (28:49)

Yeah.

Ryan Tillotson (28:50)

Well, we're gonna talk to John again.

Maggie Bowles (28:52)

Okay, so we'll ask him then.

Ryan Tillotson (28:54)

We'll ask him then.

Maggie Bowles (28:55)

Let me know what you think, listeners. Have you seen that clip? If you want to look it up. If you just Google Paul Rudd and Jason Siegel. Hi. It will come up. Tell me what you think. Okay, now onto some theories. The first one I want to talk about is from Ken A. And this is a. This is a theory that has come up a couple of times, and he believes that Donna did it. And he noticed a parallel between season two and this season. So he says the series started with a camera POV following what we believed was Loretta, but we only saw her from behind, except for a moment of her lower face in the mirror applying lipstick. And he thinks that maybe it was not Loretta in the mirror, but actually Donna. And her backstory is going to show that she was a frustrated Broadway hopeful that never made it, but married into wealth, became a producer, and started producing Broadway shows. And they said it'd be similar to season two, where we thought Detective Krebs was staring at Cinda from across the bar, but later we realized it was Poppy.

Ryan Tillotson (29:57)

Whoa, wait, wait, wait. So the. The flashback of young Loretta is. Is that what you're saying is potentially Donna part of.

Maggie Bowles (30:04)

Part of flashback with young Loretta? I think.

Ryan Tillotson (30:08)

Whoa. Interesting theory.

Maggie Bowles (30:10)

I like it a lot.

Ryan Tillotson (30:11)

Yeah, me too.

Maggie Bowles (30:12)

Okay, here's another one. Another interesting one from Mike T. From Atlanta. He thinks that the red mark that Ben had on his face was lipstick and that someone kissed him just like Joy kissed Charles at the end of season two, that person reapplied the lipstick, fixed Ben's stage makeup, and then left it behind. And then he found the cookies, ate them, and wrote the note himself. But what Mike T. Also thinks is that the person who left the cookies wasn't actually trying to kill him, and they hoped that he would eat them and get sick so that he couldn't go on and like sabotage opening night. And so then Jonathan would take the role, which would make him eligible for a Tony. And so they're thinking maybe Howard. So a lot of people are thinking the two. Two incidents are unrelated. Right. The second one, they think it was Donna. And she saw how bad Ben was in the show and when he died, she felt like, this is great news. And then when he came back, she was like, oh, no, I gotta kill him. I gotta get rid of him. And they also think there's clues in the end of season two that they haven't shown yet where someone says, stay away from her. I know what you did. I'm not sure about that.

Ryan Tillotson (31:17)

Jeez. Who is this?

Maggie Bowles (31:18)

That was all from Mike T. From Atlanta. Okay, the next one, Hillary from London. They're going with a poison pen scenario with the theater critic Maxine because she told Oliver that her ink ran out. But the truth is she actually left her pen at the scene of the crime. They noticed that there was a pen next to the bottle of serum on the close up of Kimber's dressing table. So they think Maxine was disturbed in the process of slipping something into the serum and forgot to pick up her pen. But more CR didn't put in enough poison to actually kill Ben.

Ryan Tillotson (31:53)

What is Maxine's motive? Do we know? Maybe her and Oliver, she seemed. I don't know.

Maggie Bowles (32:00)

I don't know. Maybe she just hated Ben.

Ryan Tillotson (32:03)

Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (32:03)

Yeah. I don't know. They didn't. They didn't necessarily share the motive. I don't know. And they also agree that the. The cookies Ben wrote on. On the mirror himself. Another one from Nick C. They think that Donna sent the poison cookies to bed to sabotage the play and avoid the bad review.

Ryan Tillotson (32:20)

Okay.

Maggie Bowles (32:20)

Not to kill him, but to incapacitate.

Ryan Tillotson (32:22)

Right.

Maggie Bowles (32:22)

So in the same realm. Right. They. This is an interesting part of their theory. They think that it was Szasz who pushed Ben down the elevator shaft to impress Jan. Maybe to frame Charles.

Ryan Tillotson (32:35)

And that Jan got in Szasz's head.

Maggie Bowles (32:37)

Yeah, maybe. And that it was actually Saz. We heard this one before. That it was actually Saz that got Ben fired off the set when he was a kid and not Charles.

Ryan Tillotson (32:45)

Oh, we did hear that before.

Maggie Bowles (32:46)

Oh, here's a very interesting part about Nixie's theory. They think that Tolbert was upstairs the night of the murder and saw what happened and chose not to intervene. The same way that he didn't intervene with the elephant. But he also only saw Szas from behind, so he assumed it was Charles who killed Ben. And so he's just been trying to worm his way into the trio to make a good true crime doc.

Ryan Tillotson (33:10)

I. I like that. You know, I'm suspicious of Tobert.

John Hoffman (33:13)

And.

Ryan Tillotson (33:15)

Yeah, you know, that. That. That feels right.

Maggie Bowles (33:17)

Yeah, that feels right. Okay, Another one from Vinya B. Sorry, Vinya, for mispronouncing your name last time. She thinks that. And this is. I got two people who said this. They think the book is not of Ben, but of Dickie. They noticed that Ben's not the only one in the pictures. Very, very interesting.

Ryan Tillotson (33:34)

Oh, I'm gonna have to look through this again and see all those pictures because it's so quick, you know, where you're seeing all this.

Maggie Bowles (33:39)

I know. So they think Vinya thinks that Loretta is Dickie's mother and that they're either half brothers or stepbrothers or something like that. Another person who thinks that Loretta is Dickie's mom is Anna B. From Miami, and she thinks that she's Dickie's mom and also killed Ben to free him from his, like, you know, how mean he was. And that she's the one who wrote on the mirror. And then the last one I want to talk about.

Ryan Tillotson (34:06)

Okay.

Maggie Bowles (34:07)

Is a really interesting one, and I have some thoughts on it. Okay. So this is from Mark and Kathleen in Calgary. They noticed something weird about the fish.

Ryan Tillotson (34:18)

Ms. President McKinley.

Maggie Bowles (34:19)

Yeah. Well, okay. So they haven't seen six yet. So I'll be curious what they think after seeing six, because President McKinley does factor heavily. But they say that goldfish don't live in the same conditions as all the other fish that Joy has in her tank.

Ryan Tillotson (34:35)

All 62 fish aren't supposed to be living together.

Maggie Bowles (34:38)

Exactly. And so they saw like a bunch of the ones and they were like, this one's normal. I can't remember. They named a bunch of fish. They're obviously fish for a living. Kathleen. But they said that goldfish would be in different. A different tank setting than the other ones. And also that when she plops the goldfish, President McKinley into the glass by himself to solitary, that that's a big fish, and that would be really, really cruel to do.

Ryan Tillotson (35:03)

I did think that as well when that happened because I have had fish growing up as a wee boy. But I assume that it was just like temporary until she puts it in creates. I just had assumed that she's gonna create its own, you know, environment.

Maggie Bowles (35:17)

I think Mark and Kathleen are gonna have a really hard time with episode six when they see everything that President McKinley goes through.

Ryan Tillotson (35:23)

Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (35:24)

But, okay, so their thought was like, maybe either Joy is meaner than she's coming off as because of that cruelty she did to President McKinley, or maybe, maybe she's not such an expert on fish like she said she was and that there's something going on there. But hear me out, okay? This is what I wanna say about it.

Ryan Tillotson (35:43)

Okay? Okay.

Maggie Bowles (35:44)

So what if that's like a metaphor, a parallel for President McKinley is Charles, right? Like she thinks she understands men. She thinks she understands Charles, okay? But she's got him in the complete wrong environment, right? Like he, he does need to be on his own. He needs a totally different tank than all the other things.

Ryan Tillotson (36:05)

Interesting.

Maggie Bowles (36:06)

That's why it doesn't work out with her joy in Charles, because she's got a goldfish, you know, and he can't. He. He can't be like the other fish.

Ryan Tillotson (36:15)

He's like a. One of those beta.

Maggie Bowles (36:18)

Beta fish. A beta fish.

Ryan Tillotson (36:19)

They have to be solo, right?

Maggie Bowles (36:20)

They do, yeah, because they'll, they'll kill each other. But he's not aggressive. He just needs something different, you know, he's not a baby.

Ryan Tillotson (36:26)

Other people think Charles did it.

Maggie Bowles (36:27)

That's true.

Ryan Tillotson (36:28)

So maybe he is aggressive.

Maggie Bowles (36:30)

Okay, so that's is a beta fit. That's my thought. Okay, maybe, but that's my thought on the fish is that I think it's a metaphor for Charles, that she doesn't understand him. She doesn't understand goldfish either. Tell me what you think of that, Mark and Kathleen.

Ryan Tillotson (36:43)

Well, thank you everyone for those emails and those theories. Fascinating. Fascinating.

Maggie Bowles (36:48)

I agree. Really good stuff.

Ryan Tillotson (36:50)

Okay, I'm going to take us through.

Maggie Bowles (36:51)

Tell me about Reddit.

Ryan Tillotson (36:52)

Yes, I'm going to take us through Reddit. First of all, the Moderators of r OnlyMurders Hulu have sent us a message along with their top five theories from Reddit users, but their message is, this week we are seeing less twin slash triplet theories and more discussion around Loretta, who people think is either Ben or Dickie's mom. Based on the book that Oliver finds at the end of the episode as referring to episode five, we're also starting to see people suspect our main trio, which results in the some fun and interesting theories. Overall, people are not set on one main suspect, but are looking into how Loretta might be involved. So with that said, the Reddit moderators are so kind to give us their top five and then I narrow it down to our. To my top three.

Maggie Bowles (37:41)

Okay, tell us about your top three.

Ryan Tillotson (37:42)

Okay, here we are. This is from user149833, 6.

Maggie Bowles (37:47)

Great username.

Ryan Tillotson (37:49)

My most out there theory is that Oliver did it. The quote poisoning was a publicity stunt. Later at the party, they got into a fight and Oliver pushed him in a fit of rage. We haven't seen Oliver's handkerchief. And he has been actively avoiding the investigation as much as possible.

Maggie Bowles (38:07)

Whoa.

Ryan Tillotson (38:08)

So I mean that Oliver has been

Maggie Bowles (38:10)

really mean this season.

Ryan Tillotson (38:11)

He's been mean. Especially episode six.

Maggie Bowles (38:13)

Yeah. They haven't even seen him be so

Ryan Tillotson (38:15)

mean in episode six, so they're gonna be even more suspicious.

Maggie Bowles (38:19)

Yeah.

Ryan Tillotson (38:19)

After seeing this episode. Episode six. Interesting. The next theory is from user Zoida, and this is accusing Charles again, which is something that we saw last week. This is what they say. Does anyone else suspect Charles? I truly hope I'm wrong, but it makes the most sense to me. Currently, we've seen several occurrences of him blacking out with the white room. And that would make it possible that maybe he doesn't even know he did it, Especially since he heard Loretta screaming, fucking pig. Maybe after he punched Ben, he went into the white room, subconsciously wrote what Loretta said on the mirror with his girlfriend's lipstick before taking it to the final extreme.

Maggie Bowles (38:58)

Okay, that's interesting. Okay, so here's my main issue.

Ryan Tillotson (39:01)

Yeah, tell me, tell me, tell me.

Maggie Bowles (39:02)

I think that that might make sense for the pushing down the elevator, but it wouldn't make sense for the poisoning, because poisoning would. Would need some kind of.

Ryan Tillotson (39:12)

Yeah. Like premeditated.

Maggie Bowles (39:13)

Premeditation.

Ryan Tillotson (39:14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think that it's interesting. I like the idea that the white room plays more of a role than just that one episode, you know?

Maggie Bowles (39:22)

Yeah.

Ryan Tillotson (39:23)

And maybe he's.

Maggie Bowles (39:24)

He's done other things.

Ryan Tillotson (39:25)

He's done other things that we're not aware of, but. Yeah. Because it is new. He went into the white room when he was having a confrontation with. With joy.

Maggie Bowles (39:33)

Yeah. You know, and so not just stage

Ryan Tillotson (39:35)

things, just stage things. So that's a really good point. Okay. And the final one is from user. Probably your professor. And they say, my current number one suspect is Mabel. So this is the trio here. We have had one from Oliver, Charles, and now Mabel. And they say in this season opener we see a young Loretta falling in love with the theater with a voiceover that talks about the struggles of finding your dream and once you achieve it, what you will do to hold onto it. I believe that this scene is crucial to the entire season, but mainly it's the voiceover that it accompanies us. Seeing young Loretta is coincidence or distraction. Red herring. We are given multiple instances that make Loretta seem like an obvious killer, but in a it's so obvious, it's clearly not her kind of way. Okay, but who else does that same story in the voiceover apply to Mabel? Basically, what this person is saying is that Mabel is losing a lot and that she potentially could have done this to keep her friendship with Charles and Oliver and to keep this podcast thriving, you know, to keep it going, to have a successful thing and have potentially a career.

Maggie Bowles (40:55)

Yeah. I mean, I think that. That. I like that theory as of episode five, but I think that that last scene she has in episode six where she says, like, a man is dead. A man. That meant something to me. I think that kind of, like, that makes me think it can't be Maple

Ryan Tillotson (41:12)

because she was so attached to Ben. Is that what you're saying?

Maggie Bowles (41:15)

Well, you know, she doesn't think the super fan did it.

Ryan Tillotson (41:18)

Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (41:18)

She's like, I don't think they have the right guy.

Ryan Tillotson (41:20)

Yeah. And that was, like, episode two.

Maggie Bowles (41:22)

Yeah.

Ryan Tillotson (41:22)

Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (41:24)

She has that, like, moment. She's like, you guys, nobody cares about solving this murder but me.

Ryan Tillotson (41:28)

Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (41:29)

Although I guess the whole point is to solve the murder together. But, like, then who should be. She. She'd need to be framing someone. She needed. Like, it would need to have a good ending. Right.

Ryan Tillotson (41:41)

I mean, it definitely episode six ends with them splitting up, but she. She could continue this on her own.

Maggie Bowles (41:49)

Yeah. You know, so here's my main issue.

Patrick Howell (41:52)

Okay.

Maggie Bowles (41:53)

With any of the trio having committed the murder. Okay. Okay. Is that they are in the elevator and his body comes crashing through it. So that means that somebody, like, one of them would have had to just have murdered Ben.

Ryan Tillotson (42:13)

First of all, you're wrong.

Maggie Bowles (42:15)

Why?

Ryan Tillotson (42:15)

Because his body was there. It fell in long ago. Who knows how long he was sitting up on that. The top of the elevator before he actually fell through it. You know, so they. Some. I mean, I'm just saying, like, one of the trio could have pushed him, ran back down. They could have gotten the elevator, and then he eventually fell through.

Maggie Bowles (42:34)

Yeah, I know, but, like, then that would be like. Like, I'd have to watch that scene again of them all in the elevator, because that would be a total psychopath, right? To, like, push someone down an elevator shaft, know that the body's on top of the elevator, and then get in and act like nothing's happening.

Ryan Tillotson (42:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (42:50)

I mean, come on.

Ryan Tillotson (42:50)

I don't know. I feel like the trio is tough. If anything, I'm leaning towards Charles in the Trio, but I.

Maggie Bowles (42:56)

The only Thing that makes any sense to me would be Charles in a blackout. Has no idea that he did. That he even did it, you know, Because I don't think he's a murderer.

Ryan Tillotson (43:05)

I know. I know. Even though he's a beta fish.

Maggie Bowles (43:08)

He's not a beta fish. He's a goldfish. Okay.

Ryan Tillotson (43:11)

Okay. All right. Well, thanks again, all you beautiful folks at Reddit.

Maggie Bowles (43:16)

Oh, my God.

Ryan Tillotson (43:16)

Wait, what?

Maggie Bowles (43:17)

Another thing about goldfish is that they have really short memories, right? Well, I guess they don't, actually. That's been scientifically disproven. But that's like a. That's like lore about goldfish. They have, like, be a goldfish to a second memory.

Ryan Tillotson (43:29)

Yeah.

Maggie Bowles (43:30)

So, like, if he forgot that he killed someone, he would even. He would even more be a goldfish. You know what I'm saying?

Ryan Tillotson (43:36)

Okay, that's ridiculous. Okay, okay, that's it.

Maggie Bowles (43:39)

I'll leave you listeners on that. Very interesting, interesting thought.

Ryan Tillotson (43:43)

Charles is a goldfish theory.

Maggie Bowles (43:45)

Yeah.

Ryan Tillotson (43:45)

Yeah. Okay, that's it for this week.

Maggie Bowles (43:47)

Hashtag, Charles is a goldfish.

Ryan Tillotson (43:48)

Bye, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Maggie Bowles (43:50)

Bye. See you next week. Keep sending us your theories.

Ryan Tillotson (44:11)

Only. Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Steven Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt, and only Murders Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Neighbor, and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

Maggie Bowles (44:46)

We miss you. You want me to do. Welcome back.

Ryan Tillotson (44:58)

Welcome back.

Maggie Bowles (44:59)

Hello.