S3 E7: CoBro (Part 1)

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S3 E7: CoBro (Part 1)

Released: September 13, 2023

Host: Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard) with Maggie Bowles & Ryan Tillotson

Guests: Director Shereen Davis, Showrunner/Co-Creator John Hoffman

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Episode Overview

This episode dives behind the scenes of Season 3, Episode 7 of Only Murders in the Building, titled "CoBro." Hosts Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson chat with episode director Shereen Davis and showrunner John Hoffman. Together, they explore the episode’s narrative pivots, the guest appearance of Matthew Broderick playing himself, the show’s evolving trio dynamic, nuanced production choices, and delightful on-set stories. The episode provides insights into story development, humorous meta-casting, and how visual and narrative clues are constructed for the audience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Episode 7 Recap & Major Plot Beats

• Uma’s Klepto Past & The Hanky
  • The episode opens with a voiceover from Uma, featuring a flashback to Bunny and revealing Uma’s habit of stealing, including taking Ben’s hanky the night he died.
  • [01:14] Maggie: "We learn that Uma is kind of a klepto and she stole the hanky out of Ben's dead hands on the night that he died."
• Charles and Uma’s Connection
  • Charles and Uma share a tender moment in a diner, showcasing their friendship and the theme of loneliness.
• The Silent Auction & Theo’s Return
  • Mabel gets help from Theo at the silent auction to gather clues about Ben Glenroy’s murder.
  • Dickie, Ben’s brother, throws the auction, selling off Ben’s memorabilia.
• Matthew Broderick Joins the Show – As Himself
  • Oliver desperately tries to recast his musical, leading to Broderick’s “method” entrance, much to Oliver’s dismay.
• Mabel’s New Partners & The New Trio
  • Mabel, with help from Tobert and Theo, releases her own podcast episode, causing the police to reopen the Glenroy case and officially splitting from Charles and Oliver.
  • "She decides to release [the podcast] on her own." [21:24 ]
• Clues Unraveled
  • Mabel discovers Ben’s clocks always ran 20 minutes fast, proving super-fan Greg’s innocence.
  • The CoBro idea originated from Dickie, not Ben.
  • The now-famous “hanky” shifts hands, as Uma sells it to Dickie.

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2. Behind the Scenes: Directing with Shereen Davis

• Onboarding Process & Script Preparation
  • [04:18] Shereen: "John Hoffman... pitches the stories to me early and kind of thinks of me for particular episodes. So I've gotten very lucky in that way."
  • Receives all scripts up to her episodes for context, allowing her to “be the first audience member,” reading scripts up to three times before visualizing.
• Table Reads and Actor Chemistry
  • For this season, meeting actors (e.g., Matthew Broderick) mainly occurs at the table read or even on the shoot day, especially due to packed filming schedules.
  • [07:12] Shereen: "So it was rapid fire," describing shooting all of Broderick’s scenes within one or two days.
• On Working with Legends
  • [08:05] Shereen: "When you meet those people that you've admired your whole life and they're so lovely and humble and amazing, then, like, life is... really nice when that happens."
• Matthew Broderick’s Portrayal of 'Matthew Broderick'
  • Broderick’s self-spoof is “a little exaggerated,” but hilarious—a playful and good-humored approach.
• Notable Detail with the Script
  • Broderick’s character's script is meticulously covered with colored Post-its and notes—a fun detail in the show crafted by the art department.
  • [09:49] Shereen: "The funniest thing is when he opens up his script and it's literally like there is not a space of white on the script."

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3. Musical Numbers, Meta Humor, and Cameos

• Learning the "Patter Song"
  • [11:24] Shereen: "I think you're in for a major treat," on the upcoming full version of the Patter Song.
• Mel Brooks' Cameo
  • Mel Brooks records his cameo via FaceTime, edited into the show with some VFX magic.
  • [11:49] Shereen: "He just jumped in and knew exactly what to do... The whole thing was recorded in 15 minutes."
• Meta Layers and Broadway Connections
  • The show leans into meta-casting: Broderick and Mel Brooks’s roles reference The Producers and other Broadway touchstones.
  • [31:13] John: "It's very, very meta, meta, meta, meta, meta. Like an origami version of it."
  • Broderick is friends with the composers of the show’s songs, leading to effortless musical scenes.

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4. Evolving Trio: Mabel, Theo, and Tobert

• Directorial Approach to the New Trio
  • Shereen enjoys directing a new trio—Mabel flanked by two younger men, introducing a playful love triangle dynamic.
  • [21:34] Shereen: "It was actually really fun... visuals in the episode that looked a lot like the trio that we've seen in seasons one and two. But this time, Mabel is flanked by two much younger guys."
• Theo’s Communication Style and Chemistry
  • Theo isn’t always signing pure ASL to Mabel; actor James Caverly incorporated charades to make their exchanges believable, reflecting Mabel’s real-life unfamiliarity with ASL.
  • [22:56] Shereen: "He's not fully signing with her. He's playing a little game of charades... a mix between sign language and charades."
  • The dynamic hints at chemistry and tension, something both Shereen and the hosts “are rooting for.”

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5. Crafting Clues and Directorial Subtlety

• Balancing Clues and Red Herrings
  • Shereen relies on gut instinct and intuition to decide how obviously (or subtly) to highlight clues for the audience.
  • [16:33] Shereen: "Every episode has its clues, but also has its red herrings... I just try to find a way to err on the side of, if not when it's, like, humorous, then how can it be subtle."
• Visual Storytelling
  • Decisions about how clues are visually revealed versus delivered in dialogue are central to her process.

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6. On-Set Atmosphere and Improv

• Bloopers and Breaking Character
  • The set is full of laughter; while actors sometimes break character, Shereen lets scenes run to capture improv gold, much of which is edited out due to episode time constraints.
  • [19:53] Shereen: "I never call cut right away because I'm always like, they're gonna say something funny. I gotta keep going."
• Favorite Shooting Days
  • The day with Broderick’s multiple dance numbers stands out as the funniest, most joyful day of the season.

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7. Showrunner John Hoffman’s Insights

• Comparing Trios
  • The new trio isn’t a “one for one” match with the original, but parallels exist: "I think Theo would be more Oliver and maybe Tobert more Charles, but it's hard to know." — John [26:00]
• Mabel’s Independence
  • Mabel’s branching out as "Bloody Mabel" marks a pivotal, bittersweet narrative turn, leaving Charles and Oliver behind.
  • [28:03] John: "There's a new podcast coming out without Charles and Oliver involved."
• Broderick Playing Himself
  • [28:52] “His first question was, well, how awful am I? ... I think you're exhausting. That's one way. And he said, oh, I think I can do that.” — John, on pitching the role to Broderick.
• Deep Cut Callbacks
  • Hoffman delights in meta-references for long-time fans, such as the recurring Hedda Gabler/Paula Abdul joke from season one.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Meeting Their Idols:
  • Shereen: “When you meet those people that you've admired your whole life and they're so lovely and humble and amazing, then life is... really nice when that happens.” [08:05]
• On the Constable Role Prep:
  • Broderick (mock-serious): "When I did War Games, I taught myself to write code. ... If the constable has a lisp, I have a lisp. If he carries a gun, I carry a gun. Can you get me a gun?" [07:14, as recounted by the hosts]
• On Comedy On-Set:
  • Shereen: "We are laughing all the time. All the time. And it's so... much fun." [18:13]
• On Directorial Challenge:
  • Shereen: "How subtle can I be here? Or does this need to be really loud? How do you kind of navigate that as well?" [17:42]
• On Building Visual Clues:
  • Shereen: "Is there a way to, like, visually reveal this information rather than have a character say it?" [16:33]
• On Meta-ness:
  • John: “It's very, very meta, meta, meta, meta, meta. Like an origami version of it.” [31:13]

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Highlighted Timestamps

• [01:14] Uma’s klepto flashback and the hanky reveal
• [04:18] Shereen Davis on being pitched specific episodes
• [07:12] Shooting all Broderick’s scenes in 1-2 days
• [08:05] Shereen on meeting admired actors
• [09:49] The details of Broderick’s Post-it-laden script
• [11:24] Anticipation of the full Patter Song
• [11:49] Mel Brooks cameo production details
• [16:33] Shereen on balancing clues and reveals
• [19:53] Broderick’s dance scenes and on-set laughter
• [21:34] Directing the new “young trio” dynamic
• [22:56] Theo uses charades in place of full ASL
• [28:52] John Hoffman pitches “awful” Broderick cameo

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Memorable, Playful On-Set Stories

• Broderick's exhaustive preparations spoofed and celebrated.
• Mel Brooks' spontaneous, delightful FaceTime cameo.
• The chemistry between actors leading to frequent improv and bloopers.
• Showrunner glee at embedding deep-cut references for super-fans.

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Conclusion

This episode of the official podcast is a treasure trove for fans and creators alike, peeling back the curtain on how Only Murders in the Building balances comedy, meta-casting, intricate plotting, and heartfelt character moments. With insights from both the director and showrunner, listeners get an insider’s appreciation for the craft and camaraderie that make the show a standout.

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For the next episode:
Look forward to a chat with the director of photography about Ben Glenroy’s dramatic exit, secrets from set, and more murder board theories!

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Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut Media.

[Shereen Davis]

I've geeked out a lot on this show. I'm like, I'm someone who doesn't think that I, you know, like, normally I'm like, oh no, I don't, I don't really get starstruck. But then you put me in a room with people I grew up watching and I'm like, I love you and I. I just need to tell you that. Can't not tell you that right now. I'm sorry.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hello and welcome to Only Murders in the Pot. I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I am Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This season is a little different because we're talking to the writers or actors, but we're still mining for clues and trying to figure out who the killer is. Before all is revealed in the season

[Maggie Bowles]

finale, we are talking to directors, editors and other key members of the production team and piecing it all together.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Today on the show, we speak with director of episode seven, Shereen Davis, plus showrunner and co creator John Hoffman.

[Maggie Bowles]

We'll talk about Matthew Broderick's once in a lifetime role as Matthew Broderick, Mabel's new podcast partners, and the secrets in the way that Theo communicates with Mabel.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But first, a quick recap.

[Maggie Bowles]

We start with Uma's voiceover and we see our sweet beloved bunny again in a flashback. We learn that Uma is kind of a klepto and she stole the hanky out of Ben's dead hands on the night that he died.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Charles and Uma have a sweet moment at the diner. You know, a real friend would have cared, but Oliver only cares about his show. I'm sorry to hear that. It's tough to lose friends at our age. Oh, I'm sure it is at your age. Theo is back and he's helping Mabel solve the murder. And Dickie is having a silent auction in the penthouse, selling off a bunch of Ben Glenroy's memorabilia.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oliver is struggling to recast Charles part in Deathrattle Dazzle until Cliff calls in a favor and brings in the one and only Matthew Broderick.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So quick as a whip. Gotta pick which pick the trip within it. Matthew Broderick. I've had sex dreams about this moment. How did you already nail that song?

[John Hoffman]

What can I say?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm a vessel. Mabel goes to the silent auction to talk to Dickie, but she ends up offending him when she asks about the phone call Ben got on the night he was murdered.

[Maggie Bowles]

Later we learn that Dickie was adopted and Ben was his parents miracle baby. And he's Been cleaning up his messes and playing second fiddle, basically, for his entire life.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Poor dude.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh. He also tells Mabel that Ben always hit his clocks 20 minutes fast so that he would always be fashionably late to everything.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That clue is enough for Mabel to prove super fan Greg was not the murderer. She also realizes that Ben didn't come up with the Cobro idea. Dicky did.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Theo showed it to her on the. On the right. Our Glenroy not be Glenroy.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Exactly. With the help of Tobert and Theo, she releases an episode of the podcast, prompting the police to reopen the Glenroy case.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, I mean, Tobert and Theo really want to help, but she does end up just recording it on her phone.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's true.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Matthew Broderick is so committed to the role of the constable that he starts to drive Oliver crazy, and Oliver calls Mel Brooks for advice.

[John Hoffman]

When you were putting together the Producers,

[Ryan Tillotson]

which, you know, I never did get a chance to see. What?

[John Hoffman]

You never saw the Producers?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, I was busy at the time.

[Shereen Davis]

It ran for six years.

[Maggie Bowles]

Learns that there's basically nothing he can do, so he finally ends up firing him and rehiring Charles. And they have kind of a sweet moment where Oliver shows Charles Loretta's book, but Charles doesn't think that she killed Ben.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They try to bring Mabel Loretta's book as a peace offering, but discover Mabel's no longer living in her apartment.

[Maggie Bowles]

Uma tells Charles that she sold the hanky to the snake dorks upstairs. And it turns out Dickie bought it. Dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And it's time to reopen the Glenroy case.

[Maggie Bowles]

Welcome back. Shirin Davis directed this episode and episode nine, which we haven't seen yet. And she's actually been with the only Murders team since. Since season one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

At what point do you get involved, you know, for your two episodes? How do you find out? Like, okay, you're getting these two episodes, and what point do you get involved and start working? And what is, like, the first thing that you do?

[Shereen Davis]

You know, the showrunner, John Hoffman, is amazing, and he pitches the stories to me early and kind of thinks of me for particular episodes. So I've gotten very lucky in that way where he's like, oh, you know, Shireen will love this one. So I remember him pitching these episodes to me and pretty early on, because then I think it was months later when I finally got the scripts.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Do you get all of them up to episode seven? Do you get the whole.

[John Hoffman]

All of it?

[Shereen Davis]

I do, yeah. Yeah. So they send everything. So I was, you know, I Was catching up on everything up until my episodes, and then kind of waiting for my episodes to come. I think this season, you know, first season, I got involved super early, especially for the, you know, the silent episode. I think this season, it was much later than usual. So I think that just, you know, tells you how hard they were working in their writers room, you know, with all the music. This season as well, I think it was. I think it was a lot to take on, but they did an incredible job.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And so, like, what is the first thing that you do once you have all those scripts and, you know, the episodes that you're gonna direct? Like, what. How do you start? What do you do?

[Shereen Davis]

I mean, the first thing I do is just enjoy. Like, I, you know, I allow myself to kind of be, like, the very first audience member. And so it's really fun to just kind of read and laugh. I remember. I mean, I laughed out loud so many times for both of these episodes. But I usually read a script three times. So usually I'll, you know, I'll finish reading it and then I'll, you know, go back and read it again, either right away or I'll wait, you know, a day and then read it again. I usually read, you know, scripts about three times before I kind of allow myself to start thinking. Daydreaming. I mean, that's kind of the first step, right, is just to kind of start visualizing and allowing my. And my imagination to freely flow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You're, like, in the middle of. And they're all shooting all over the place. Like, is there, like, rehearsal? Do you have time to work with these actors or like, how. I just am.

[Maggie Bowles]

So it's a table read, right? The table read the first time that you're.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah, the table reads pretty much the first time that. Well, I mean, you know, again, with the. With the first season, it was different. With the silent episode, I was introduced to James Caverly, who's amazing. And, you know, I was introduced to him early in prep, but normally that's never. That's not the case. And so for this season, I got to see the actors for the table read, which was great and a lot of fun. And usually, you know, questions come up or anything related to, you know, the actors come up at that time. But other than that, it's just. And it's just Run and Gun. You know, I met, like, Matthew Broderick the day of. You know, the day we shot all of his scenes. We shot, like, I think, all of his scenes in one or two days.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, wow.

[Shereen Davis]

So it was rapid fire.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So I think I understand the constable, but I'm gonna need your help to become the constable. It's part of my process. When I did War Games, I taught myself to write code. Incredible. For my role in Election, I started teaching high school and dating some students. Okay. If the constable has a lisp, I have a lisp. If he carries a gun, I carry a gun. Can you get me a gun? Anything you want. When you come back tomorrow, this is going to look like Charlton Heston's man cave tomorrow. Opening night is in two weeks. We have to rehearse now. I really. I really enjoyed Matthew Broderick's Matthew Broderick. You know, his character.

[Maggie Bowles]

It felt like. It felt like he had to be a really good sport to be. To do that role. You know, like, it speaks to how what a good dude Matthew Broderick must be.

[Shereen Davis]

Yes. And he truly, truly is. I mean, I can't. I can't say enough good things about everyone on the show behind the camera and in front of the camera. But, you know, there are people who, like, you know, there are actors on this show who I've spent, like, my life admiring and, like, I grew up watching and who grew up making me laugh. And, you know, so when you meet those people that you've admired your whole life and they're so lovely and humble and amazing, then, like, life is. Life is good. Like, life is really. You know, it's really nice when that happens.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, can you maybe talk to us about what is Matthew Broderick playing when he plays himself? Like, exactly.

[Shereen Davis]

It's funny because I think the role might have even made him question more than he normally does. And I think. I think this show, given its unbelievable cast, makes even the most seasoned, amazing, legendary of actors nervous. And so it's, again, amazing to kind of come in as a director, like, to come onto a show like this and to see these unbelievable actors admit that they're a little nervous because it's their first day shooting with people they've admired for so long and that they may have been friends with, but they're only getting to work with for the first time. And so. So it's. It's. It's kind of really fun and amazing to. To get to kind of witness that. But, yeah, Matthew was. I mean, what a fun. What a fun part. What a. You know, whether it's. Yeah, certainly wasn't my experience of him, but whether it was true in the past or whether there's a little bit of that there, I didn't witness it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Have you ever worked with somebody like that who needs constant information?

[Shereen Davis]

Well, I would say that the level to which he needs constant information in this is a little exaggerated. Well, a lot exaggerated in a very hilarious. Hilarious way. But yes, I mean, I have to some extent and it is definitely exhausting. I mean, the funniest thing is when he opens up his script and it's literally like there is not a space of white on the script. It's just so filled with color coded little post its and notes and writing everywhere. I mean, I couldn't believe that the art department. I was like, how long did it take you to do this?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I didn't even notice that little detail.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know, but it makes so much sense.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I think it's very brief. It's in there, but it's very brief. And you have to kind of like, really?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

Take a look

[Ryan Tillotson]

to admit it. So quick as a whip. Got a pick. Which pick? The triplet in it. Matthew Broderick. I've had sex dreams about this moment. Have you memorized the Patter song?

[Shereen Davis]

I think I did. I think I've definitely forgotten it now, but I think I was dreaming it at one point. Yeah, I was having all kinds of showbiz dreams.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus because also I think John told us that. That we're gonna hear it in full, right? Or was that this was that episode seven the Full. Like the full. He was like, there's so much. There's so many more verses to the Pattersong than you even know. Is that.

[Shereen Davis]

Oh, yeah, no, I think that's coming up.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Shereen Davis]

I think you're in for. I think you're in for a major treat.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, good, good, good.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Also in this episode, we kind of.

[John Hoffman]

We.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We realized that Oliver's got some friends in high places. He calls Mel Brooks. Like, how did you. Were you. Did you get to work with Mel Brooks? Like, how did that work? You did okay.

[Shereen Davis]

I mean, as if our trio wasn't amazing enough, then they add like Matthew Broderick and Mel Brooks and then Paul Rudd and Meryl Streep and it's just like, could this get any better? Yeah, I got to meet Mel Brooks via FaceTime and he was so great and so lovely and sweet and very easy to work with. And he, he just jumped in and knew exactly what to do. I mean, I, I think I maybe said two words literally. The whole thing was recorded in 15 minutes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow.

[Shereen Davis]

On FaceTime. That was how like he just nailed It. I think the first take. And so John and I just kind of looked at each other on zoom and we were like, that was amazing. Do you want to try something different for fun? Like, it was like that. It was like, okay, well, I don't have any ideas because that was so perfect.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I was curious. Yeah. If that was you. So you were just filming the phone. That was what that was.

[Shereen Davis]

That was. So we. When we shot Marty's side, we filmed the phone, and we filmed a green screen, and then we did a zoom with Mel Brooks. And so then post production took the zoom and got it. Placed it into the phone and. Yeah. So it was a little bit of. A little bit of vfx.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Got it, got it, got it.

[Shereen Davis]

And we did it. Yeah, we did, like, two different sides of it, so.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Gotcha. Okay, okay, Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

I also loved this episode. Uma's voiceover in the beginning and, like, getting to see.

[Ryan Tillotson]

To learn about her klepto past.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

Yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

Can you tell us anything about, I don't know, working with Jackie Hoffman or even Uma's character or anything like that with this episode?

[Shereen Davis]

She's really great. I mean, I was thrilled to get to see more of her and to also get to work with her and Steve Martin in that scene, you know, in the diner where.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love that.

[Shereen Davis]

It felt really meaty and fun.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So what happened with you guys, anyway? I quit the musical. Ah, you got shit can. It was ruining my life, my engagement, my sanity, my relationship with President McKinley. President McKinley is a fish. The suspense was killed. You know, a real friend would have cared, but Oliver only cares about his show. I'm sorry to hear that. It's tough to lose friends at our age. Oh, I'm sure it is at your age.

[Shereen Davis]

And it was also really nice to see kind of a different side of Uma. You know, it felt like we've seen, you know, this particular kind of attitude from her, but I feel like there's a little bit of a softer side here. We get to know her a little bit more, a little bit of her history, but we also see, like, a real loneliness. And so I feel like that theme in the show of, like, loneliness is sort of extended to her in this moment, and it's. Yeah. I found. I thought it was pretty heartwarming.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, me too.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love her character.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we talk about the return of Theo and the careful process of directing a murder mystery.

[Maggie Bowles]

I was really excited to see Theo's character come back during episode seven? Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah, I love him. I just think he's so incredibly talented, and he's so smart, and I wish I would have had more material with him. But I was also just thrilled to get to have him in this season because I didn't. And, you know, it was like, I worked so closely with him in season one, and then in season two, I didn't have the episode that he was really featured in. So it was great to kind of reunite with him here. And I felt like we had a little bit of a shorthand this time. Like, it felt, you know, I mean, season one, it was just so. It was so intense because he was. He had really dramatic material, you know, and so. And he really gave so much and, like, really went there. And he and I started talking in prep, and so we had a really nice. We got to kind of really establish a really nice rapport with each other and trust with each other, so. And he asked for certain things, and I made sure that he got what he needed, and he was really grateful. So by the time we got to the season, we were just both so happy to see each other. It was great.

[Maggie Bowles]

So there's a lot of, like, clues that get pieced together in this episode. You know, like, there's the clock setting and the hanky, and there's all of these little pieces that the trio's kind of piecing together to figure something out. Is there a way that you approach it as a director when you're trying to, like, make sure all of these pieces get represented the right way so that, like, the viewer can figure it out alongside the characters?

[Shereen Davis]

That's a really good question. And I'm trying to think if I. If I have, you know, if I can articulate a specific way that I do that, or if it's just purely gut and intuition, you know, I mean, sometimes that's kind of just what it is. And it's hard to describe whether there's sort of a logical process to it, but I think it's sort of like every episode has its clues, but also has its red herrings. And I think I just try to find a way to err on the side of. If not when it's, like, humorous, then how can it be subtle or how can. You know what I mean? Like, I think I just ask myself, like, particular questions, and also I think, particularly with this show, try to figure out, like, how can things be revealed, if that makes any sense? Like, how can they be visually revealed in addition to, you know, What? I mean, not just, like, we're hearing information, but is there a way to, like, visually reveal this information rather than have a character say it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. And then having to make the decision of, like, do I. How much attention do I want to call to this one thing? Or, you know, because I feel like that's the thing.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah. Like, how subtle. How subtle can I be here? Or does this need to be, like, really loud? You know, like, how. How do you. How do you kind of navigate that as well?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, that sounds like a fine line.

[Maggie Bowles]

Does. Yeah. It sounds like a delicate. A delicate dance.

[Shereen Davis]

Yes, it definitely can be.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You're on this set with, like, all these hilarious people. Do you ever have to stop a take because people are laughing and, like, to the. Like, the DP or someone's just, like, cracking up and you can't keep shooting or does that ever happen?

[Shereen Davis]

Well, I mean, I will say, first of all that we are laughing all the time. All the time. And it's so. It's so much fun. I've not actually had the experience where someone laughs during the take, unless it's an actor. Like, if the actor breaks and starts laughing, which does happen quite often, and then everyone bursts into laughter. But I think the crew. I think we've gotten, like, really good at holding ourselves. You know, like, kind of holding it in until the end of the take. And then, like, as soon as it's cut, it's just like everyone dies laughing. The scene where I think the best. I think the. I think the funniest day of shooting was the scene with. Was the day with Matthew Broderick where he was doing all of those scenes, all of those numbers, dance numbers in Oliver's apartment. And that scene where Oliver walks him to the door and then opens the door and Charles is on the other side of the door.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, I'm not lurking. Lester wanted to inspect the peepholes because

[Shereen Davis]

evidently some of them had been installed backwards.

[John Hoffman]

So I said, well, I'll do it. And he said, you know, the good time is 2am so I'm lying. I just wanted to say I'm sorry.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Apology accepted. Friendship mended. You're hired.

[John Hoffman]

No, no, I don't want to do this show.

[Shereen Davis]

I just want to hang out.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Of course we'll do that all the time. Eight shows a week. And, Broderick, you're fired. Wait a minute. Wait. This guy. I've seen him get out.

[John Hoffman]

Acted by a horse.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Maybe he was. But I'm guessing that horse enjoyed himself on set that day because he got to spend it with Charles Hayden Savage, who was probably kind to him and fed him a fistful of oats out of his palm.

[Shereen Davis]

I mean, I don't know that I've ever laughed that so hard. Like, it was just. Marty is so funny, and he just would do something different every take. And he's. You know, he'll put a little improv line in there some, you know, and I never call cut right away because I'm always like, they're gonna say something funny. I gotta keep going, you know?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

And so, like, you just kind of give them, like, a. Like, let them just add a little button onto the end of the scene or just see what they're gonna say this time. And it's almost different every take.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Do you notice that a lot of that stuff gets used? Or does it.

[Shereen Davis]

It does. It does sometimes get used. Not always, because, you know, the episodes tend to run long, and we have to cut them down. And so, you know. But there have definitely been a few times that those. Those things get used.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, we talked to two of the editors, and they were saying that, like, some of the episodes were, like, 45 minutes in length, and they're like. Yeah, and they're like, we got to cut this down, like, 35 minutes. That's like. Like, that's a lot.

[Shereen Davis]

It's those musical numbers, you know, like, the musical numbers are, like, this short on the page, you know, but then when. When the script supervisor times them out, it's like, becomes five minutes of just musical number.

[Maggie Bowles]

Seven is also when everyone's mad at each other. So you have that tension between Oliver and Charles. And then also, Mabel's releasing the podcast. She decides to release it on her own.

[Shereen Davis]

That's right.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't know what the question is about it, because. Is there a question in their minds?

[Shereen Davis]

It's interesting. I don't know what the question is there, but I have an answer for you.

[Maggie Bowles]

Perfect. That's really helpful.

[Shereen Davis]

I mean, I would say 7 was interesting because I got to work with kind of a new trio, which was Mabel, Tobert, and Theo.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

And it was actually really fun because, you know, there were some visuals in the episode that looked a lot like, you know, the trio that we've seen in seasons one and two. But this time, Mabel is flanked by two much younger guys who kind of are vying for her, who are kind of flirting with her, who kind of, like, both are interested in her. So that was, like, a really fun, like, little love triangle that I got to play with in that episode. You know, it Wasn't your usual trio.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Theo's always had a thing for maple.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, for sure.

[Shereen Davis]

I think so. I love those two together. I'm rooting for a relationship.

[Maggie Bowles]

They have a great chemistry.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know. I love it.

[Shereen Davis]

They do.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She's really got the sign language down.

[Maggie Bowles]

She has, yeah. Do you know about how much Selena worked on learning sign language just for the show, or.

[Shereen Davis]

I don't know too much about that, but she. From what I could see, I thought she did really great job with it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know if she actually knows what he's saying, but it seems like she does.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay. I understood maybe half of what you said, but it is clear that you are a giant nerd. Well.

[Shereen Davis]

Okay, so James filled me in on a little secret, which is that he's not fully signing with her. He's playing a little game of charades. So. Yes. In order to make it more believable that someone that he's, you know, who's relatively, like, kind of new in his life, like, they haven't known each other that long. She doesn't know sign language. That he's not speaking pure sign language to her. He's actually putting in a lot of, like, you know, he's indicating a lot, or it's like he said it was kind of a mix between sign language and charades, and I thought that was kind of great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

And that was his way of sort of making it more believable that she was understanding what he's saying. What he's saying all the time.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. I would assume that's something he does a lot with people that don't.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You know, know the link. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's so interesting. Yeah. I love that. I love that layer, too, for, you know, viewers who know ASL to, like, see that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

That level of detail.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Being worked in. I think that's really cool. Yeah.

[Shereen Davis]

I have a really great story from. From episode nine, by the way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, tell us.

[Shereen Davis]

I feel like I should hold off, but I just remember, like.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, my.

[Shereen Davis]

And you guys haven't seen it yet. Right. So I can't. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That. If you. If you're holding it back, then that means you have to come back and tell us.

[Shereen Davis]

Yes, exactly. Well, because now.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. It'll be, like, 10 minutes.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah. No, I'd love to talk to you guys about nine, because that was. I probably shouldn't say this, but as a director, whenever I do two episodes, I always have a favorite of the two, and it could be something. It may not even be related to the story. Like, you know, it may be at the vast majority of people, like seven, more than nine, but, but for me, it's all about like the visual kind of, you know, the, the visual dance I get to do. Like the, the, the more I get to play in an episode visually or the more, like, the more there's something, some concept that I get to kind of execute, the more excited I get as a director. So this season nine was that episode episode for me.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, okay. Well, and you've. And you have a story and I want to hear it. So we'll, we'll definitely chat soon.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, it's time for another break. And when we come back, co creator and showrunner John Hoffman talks with us about Mabel's brand new podcast partners and how exactly Oliver knows Mel Brooks. Welcome back. John Hoffman, showrunner, co creator. You know who he is. We are talking to him right now about Mabel.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Episode seven, though, is when she like has a whole new trio. It's like we get the, we get the young trio.

[John Hoffman]

That would be the first word you wanted to go use.

[Maggie Bowles]

I know which one. Who is Theo and who is Tobert? I feel like Theo is Oliver. I don't know. I started to say that, then I was like, no, I don't know. Maybe it's not a one for one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know.

[John Hoffman]

No, I know it's not. It's a good question. I went there too. I think Theo would be more Oliver and maybe Todd more Charles, but it's hard to know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I don't know. Well, I'm still also suspicious of Tobbert, so it's like, yeah, but that's good

[John Hoffman]

you put it that way though, because I remember Shereen Davis who directed that beautifully. We had a big talk about that image of that classic image in front of the murder board and the shot from behind them. And there she is with two guys that shouldn't be there on either end of her. In our audience's mind at least, that was a big shot for us.

[Shereen Davis]

It's a bit more than just a mic, huh?

[Ryan Tillotson]

In terms of software, do you remember what Oliver was using? You know what?

[John Hoffman]

Don't even worry about it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It should be pretty straightforward. Oh, do you have a new name for the podcast? Punch that in right now.

[Shereen Davis]

You know what?

[Maggie Bowles]

I think I'm just going to record

[Shereen Davis]

this on my phone. Okay?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, sure.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's all three murders that way, as you're fond of reminding me for sure. And Talbert's trying to really Take it. Take over. And, like, I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's like Ryan can't hide his mistrust of Shawbert.

[John Hoffman]

Right.

[Maggie Bowles]

I know.

[John Hoffman]

Allison, these are. There may be some justification. I'm not gonna give anything away. Maybe or maybe not. Right?

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, we haven't learned anything yet, but.

[John Hoffman]

Right. Yeah, but. Yeah, that and him and his fancy equipment.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's what I'm saying. That's, like, the gear we use.

[John Hoffman]

Very much so. I'm like, boy, they wish to have the microphone that I'm speaking on right now.

[Maggie Bowles]

So I guess, like, the. There's. Well, there's a lot of reveals, I think, in episode seven.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, man.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know, there's like. We learned that Dickie was adopted and that Ben was the miracle baby. We learned that Ben stole Cobra. The cobra idea from Dickie. We learned, you know, Mabel basically proves that the superfan couldn't have killed Ben. So we now fight, you know, even though I guess we kind of knew that, we finally know that for sure. And we learned that Mabel's no longer in her apartment, you know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, yeah, that was really sad.

[John Hoffman]

And there's a new podcast coming out without Charles and Oliver involved.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, Mabel's gone solo. And, I mean, hashtag bloody Mabel. Bloody Mabel. And then the obvious joy of Matthew Broderick and a little glimmer of Mel Brooks. So what do you want to talk about with episode 7? I just named everything.

[Shereen Davis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That was a lot.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

Well, there's one thing you left out, which is Uma and the hanky.

[Maggie Bowles]

Ugh. Uma and the hanky. Oh, that's the other reveal at the end of the episode.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Uma. That little klepta.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, Uma stole the hanky. We learned that at the beginning, but Dickie bought the hanky.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, oh, oh, Right, right, right. We should start with Matthew Broderick. Right. Like, how was he learning the Pattersong?

[John Hoffman]

Effortless, really. To Steve Martin, just as it is in the show. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Really?

[John Hoffman]

No, I. It was the funniest conversation to have with Matthew about a playing himself. And his first question was, well, how awful am I?

[Shereen Davis]

And does it get confusing?

[John Hoffman]

And I was like, well, I think it. I don't. I think you're exhausting. That's one way. And he said, oh, I think I can do that. And he's just perfect in everything he does. I love him so much. And the Pattersong. Yeah, he was quick on that patter song because he's friends with everyone who wrote it. It's an amazing quartet of Broadway composers with Pasek and Paul working with Scott Whitman and Marc Shaiman. And he knows all of them very, very well. He's very good friends with all of them.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

They also have their moment of drinking gut milk. I loved to see gut milk.

[John Hoffman]

Maybe we're doing that gut milk coming back.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oliver. Oliver, I'd really like to try one of those blue raspberry gut milks I saw in your fridge. Split one with me. Oh, sure.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah. I like that Matthew is the one that brings it up, up and. And he's gonna go have it. But I love that scene between Charles and Oliver at the end when they reconciled and they're just at the dining room table eating those raspberry. Blue. Raspberry gut milks. And I even think, like, there's a little bit of like a blue. Like Marty has, like it. There's. Around his mouth. It's all. Yeah. Just to put a finer point on the Matthew Broderick, if I could, the. There are times when the show folds onto itself in ways that are so insane to me, but the fact that Nathan Lane has been such a staple of our show in the first two seasons and now we're playing Teddy Demas and now Matthew Broderick coming on to play himself. And there was a momentary talk of like, do we have Teddy back for this episode or is that going to. It's too confusing in many ways. And then on top of it all, the great good fortune to land Mel Brooks for that moment we have. And it all just the producers and everything else is hanging over this musical that they're doing. It's very, very meta, meta, meta, meta, meta. Like an origami version of it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

For me. Yes. And to be able to just get Mel Brooks on the phone real quick just to deal with his Matthew Broderick ish situation is very impressive. Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, you don't direct a production of Hedda Gobbler with Paula Abdul and Brooks 2. You know, that's an old. That's an old reference from season one, but.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, wow.

[John Hoffman]

Hedda Gobbler is a bit of a running thing, but. Well, I'll shut up about that for now.

[Maggie Bowles]

No, I love that. I had. No. Did he have a poster for Hedda Gobbler with Paula Abdul or how. I don't remember that. I feel like.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, it is, it is. It's briefly mentioned, I believe, in episode eight of season one, you're recollection. And he just says very quickly, this is exactly the same situation. It's just exactly what I told Paula Abdul when I did my production of Head of Gobbler with her. And it's just something like that. So in this very small pocket of our audience, they've deeply appreciated that. And that's the audience that I cared about the most, I guess.

[Shereen Davis]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Of course.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's it for today. In just a few days, we'll be back with DP Kyle Volschlager to talk about Ben Glenroy falling down an elevator shaft, how far John Hoffman goes to keep the murderer a secret on set, and, of course, your theories. See you then.

[Maggie Bowles]

See you then.

[Shereen Davis]

Foreign.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt and and only murders. Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Nabor and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

We miss you.

[Shereen Davis]

Matthew broderick.

[Maggie Bowles]

Matthew broderick.

[John Hoffman]

Matthew broderick.

[Shereen Davis]

Matthew broderick. Matthew broderick.

[John Hoffman]

Not matthew broderick.

[Shereen Davis]

A fictional matthew broderick.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Matthew broder. Matthew broderick.