S3 E8: Sitzprobe (Part 2)

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

Episode: S3 E8: Sitzprobe (Part 2)

Release Date: September 22, 2023
Host: Michael Cyril Creighton (“Howard”), Maggie Bowles, Ryan Tillotson
Guest: John Hoffman (Co-creator and showrunner)

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Episode Overview

In this behind-the-scenes delight, hosts Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, joined by showrunner John Hoffman, break down Episode 8 of Only Murders in the Building Season 3, “Sitzprobe (Part 2).” The trio explores the mysteries and emotional pivots of the episode, dives into performance stories (including a show-stopping number by Steve Martin), Meryl Streep’s favorite lyric, casting synchronicities, and an array of fan theories. The hosts lovingly dissect clues, hidden details, and clever callbacks designed to keep even the most vigilant armchair detectives on their toes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Show-Stopping Song and Steve Martin’s Performance

• Steve Martin’s “Pickwick Triplets” Song:

  • Hoffman raves about the filming process, noting Steve’s initial concern about shooting the number in parts but ultimately nailing multiple takes in spectacular fashion.
  • “One of the most bravura things I’ve seen him do…he so beautifully nailed that moment.” – John Hoffman (01:07)
  • Meryl Streep and Martin Short apparently watched from the audience, cheering Steve on.

• Plans for the Song:

  • A special video version of the song is set to be released, potentially for TikTok challenges—letting fans attempt the tongue-twisting lyrics (02:45).

Meryl Streep’s Favorite Lyric

• Meryl Streep’s pick:
  • “A diaper full of criminal intent.” – Hoffman, echoing Streep’s praise (03:05)
  • The hosts and Hoffman then play around with more triplet lyrics, illustrating the song’s wit.

The Uncanny Dickie-Loretta Resemblance and Casting Synchronicity

• Connection Between Dickie and Loretta:
  • Hosts note how, in retrospect, the fact that Dickie (Jeremy Shamos) looks so much like Loretta (Meryl Streep) seems obvious and almost magical (04:05–06:50).
  • “Jeremy Shamus…knocked it out of the park. In that audition was only when I was realizing, oh my God, look at him in profile, look at him in skin tone, look at him in the eyes.” – John Hoffman (05:40)
  • Hoffman compares the casting “fairy dust” to the perfect pairing of James Caverly and Nathan Lane.

Return of Beloved Characters

• Detective Williams’ Entrance:
  • “My wish was to give her an unbelievable entrance…no one carries what she carries into scenes like that.” – Hoffman on casting Da’Vine Joy Randolph (07:43)
  • Jane Houdyshell also returned as Bunny; the show’s revolving door of surprise appearances keeps both cast and audience guessing.

The Weighted Blanket Ruse and GoPro Antics

• Comic Relief in Detective Trickery:
  • The weighted blanket scene—with Charles acting hopeless on stage—was intentionally prolonged for laughs before its narrative payoff (09:08–10:54).
  • “Just hang with us for a minute through this dumb, dumb scene about a weighted blanket. But it makes me very happy to sort of pay that off that way.” – Hoffman (09:30)
  • Steve Martin probably knows how to use a GoPro; Martin Short, less so.

Hiding Visual Clues and Chekhov’s Paper Shredder

• Filmmaking Process:

  • Directors often don’t know the purpose of shots, but Hoffman signals what’s important (11:53).
  • The paper shredder is called out as a clear clue from earlier episodes that eventually pays off.
  • Episode 8 contains several such visual clues that will bear fruit in the next two episodes.

• Dropped (or Refashioned) Scenes:

  • Originally, a shot of Loretta distracted by Dickie at the table read was to be mirrored back to Episode 1 for extra context, but was cut for clarity and pacing (13:52–14:33).

The Character of Loretta (Meryl Streep)

• Loretta’s Trajectory and Performance:
  • “It seems so preposterous…that she’s taking part in our beautiful show.” – Hoffman on working with Streep (15:13)
  • This episode is described as a “crux”—pivotal for both the season’s plot and Loretta’s performance arc.
  • The scene with Loretta (Streep) and Mabel (Selena Gomez) is highlighted for its humor:
    • “I’m just going to toss out a name—Bobo. Do we really know Bobo?” – Hoffman, recalling Streep’s delivery (16:51)
  • Loretta’s false confession and emotional aria are “operatic” and grand, fitting the episode’s orchestral theme (18:01–19:07).

Who Killed Ben? (And "Accusation Station")

• Debates on Loretta’s Confession:
  • The hosts (and listeners) don’t buy Loretta’s confession and speculate she’s taking the fall for someone else (19:53–20:02).
  • Hoffman affirms the season is designed to allow viewers to develop plausible hunches, not to have all answers hidden behind impossible clues (20:02–20:47).

Open Mysteries and Ongoing Clues

• Unresolved Questions:
  • Who Ben was talking to in the dressing room remains an open thread, with Hoffman confirming the writers anticipated all top fan theories (21:25–22:44).
  • Other clues revisited: the “hanky,” Tobert’s video camera, the paper shredder, and various motives.

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Fan Theories, Listener Insights & Wild Clues

(23:16–37:10)

Listener Observations and Theorizing

• Donna Throwing Up:
  • Speculative importance; is it nerves or something more? (23:25–23:43)
• Loretta’s Confession:
  • Reiterated disbelief from hosts and listeners.
• Shakespeare & Chicago Musical References:
  • Email listener Beverly draws parallels between the show and Chicago/Shakespeare, references to Bob Fosse, “Razzle Dazzle,” “Mr. Cellophane,” and hidden hints about character identities (24:04–25:49).
• Richard/Richard II/Dickie Connections:
  • Two spellings of Dickie on IMDb noted as possibly meaningful.
• Other Theories:
  • Ben’s blood work may have been tampered with; Dickie might be covering evidence.
  • Loretta’s limp (as referenced in her “Grey’s Anatomy” audition) as a recurring detail.
  • Tobert’s suspicious cash (“all those 50s”), possibly implicating a cash source or scheme involving Cinda.

Reddit Roundup

• Top Suspects:

  • Subreddit trends point toward male suspects: Dickie, Tobert, Cliff.
  • Hypotheses include secret schemes, fake deaths, accidental falls, and multiple culprits—many suspicious of Tobert’s connection to Cinda and the possibility of a True Crime podcast plot-within-a-plot (32:29–34:53).

• Wild Clue of the Week:

  • Listener discovers a historical newspaper article from August 29, 1902 (which matches a “Greg the Stalker” ID badge number), detailing a girl who was found already dead after falling down an elevator shaft—while in the care of a Dr. C. The date matches the release date of S3E5 ("Dr. C"’s first appearance) and took place near the Belnord/Arconia (35:07–36:40).
  • Hosts are floored: “Crazy sleuthing, that is. I love it.” – Maggie Bowles (37:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A diaper full of criminal intent.” – Meryl Streep’s favorite lyric; echoed by John Hoffman (03:05)
• “Just hang with us for a minute through this dumb, dumb scene about a weighted blanket…but it makes me very happy to sort of pay that off that way.” – John Hoffman (09:30)
• “It seems so preposterous to me that, first of all, that she’s taking part in our beautiful show, and I still can’t believe it…” – John Hoffman on Meryl Streep (15:13)
• “I don’t know what to root for anymore. I don’t know if I like this person or if I should like this person.” – John Hoffman, on Loretta’s conflicting motives (19:40)
• “I did it. I killed Ben. I couldn’t. Poison in his disgusting protein drink just before he went on stage opening night. And then when that didn’t work...I pushed him down the elevator shaft.” – Maggie Bowles reading within the episode's context (18:48)
• “If you haven’t jumped into the Only Murders Hulu subreddit, please do. It’s wild in there.” – Ryan Tillotson (31:40)
• “Crazy sleuthing, that is. I love it.” – Maggie Bowles (37:05)

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• Steve Martin’s Song & Filming: 01:07–03:00
• Discussion of Favorite Lyric: 03:05
• Dickie-Loretta Casting Story: 04:05–06:55
• Detective Williams’ Return: 07:43–08:26
• Weighted Blanket Ruse: 09:08–10:54
• Paper Shredder & Visual Clues: 11:53–13:56
• Editing Loretta’s Scene: 13:52–14:33
• Loretta’s “Operatic” Confession: 18:01–19:08
• Accusation Station & Fan Theories: 23:16–37:10
• Redditories, Wild Historical Clue: 35:07–36:40

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Tone & Style

The episode is witty, warm, and highly engaging—bouncing between reverent behind-the-scenes revelations, deadpan humor, fan service, and genuine awe at both performers’ talents and the sleuthing prowess of listeners.

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Takeaway

This episode highlights the intricate craftsmanship of Only Murders in the Building, both in storytelling and production. It reveals how clues are layered visually and narratively, how casting magic sometimes happens unexpectedly, and how the fandom’s wildest theories are both anticipated and cherished by the creators. With emotional beats ranging from comic relief to operatic heartbreak, the show (and the podcast) invites its community to solve the mystery side by side with the Arconia’s lovably odd detectives.

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Next: Episode 9 breakdown coming soon — with more fan theories, more clues, and inevitably, more musical mischief.

Send your theories in—Accusation Station needs more passengers!

Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut Media.

[John Hoffman]

Did you talk to Bob and Sherry about this one?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, we did.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, really?

[Ryan Tillotson]

American Splendor Succession like oh my gosh, look out right?

[John Hoffman]

And then you see it in the way they shot this thing.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hello and welcome to Only Murders in the Pod. I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I'm Maggie Bowles. And this is part two of our coverage of episode eight.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Today we're talking with co creator and showrunner John Hoffman about the uncanny resemblance between Dickie and Loretta and some key pieces of evidence in solving Ben's murder.

[Maggie Bowles]

Plus we'll hear about Meryl Streep's favorite lyric from the song, which of the Pickwick triplets did it? And of course we'll go through some of your listener theories. Three little babes in their bassinets Angelic

[John Hoffman]

little triplets or triple threats.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Here's John Hoffman.

[John Hoffman]

I'm hopeful that by the time this comes out, we've done some things with that song. It's so brilliant. And Steve, it's one of the most bravura things I've seen him do. And that night of shooting, him doing it and he said to me before, he said, you know, I don't know how we're shooting this exactly, but you know, I can't do this whole song in one take. And I'm like, no, we're cutting it up, don't worry. Verse by verse and all this stuff. And then of course he goes out and over and over again, nails the hell out of it. And in a way that it was so beautiful. Meryl and Marty, I think their day was done and they sat in the house of that theater and watched him and cheered him on and everybody did the same. It was one of these great nights. I actually texted Paul Rudd who had to go to England to start filming the new Ghostbusters, but he had been with us and he so reveres Steve. Paul does. And I took a picture of Steve on that night and I said, I wish more than anything that you could see what he's doing here right now. And it was just like, I just am so thrilled that he so beautifully nailed that moment. And what we're going to do, I think is there's a video version that will come out and it's cut differently so you don't have the sort of cool split screen that's happening. And you get his full on version of it, just him doing that song. So. And then I think they may even set it up so there's like competitions like, oh, like so you can do Tiktoks with it and sort of like let people sort of have the words going and they can do their. Try and get the words to that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Challenge. Accept it.

[John Hoffman]

Right?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

There are so many lyrics that, when I first heard it that were. That were so genius, you know, just. They come so fast and furious. But Meryl said to me, and I agreed, like, our personal favorites was a diaper full of criminal intent.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's so good.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, that's. That's really special.

[John Hoffman]

Vanellope in Pink sure is making quite a stint.

[Maggie Bowles]

Is she trying to throw me off the scent, though? She bats her little eyes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Is she a killer in disguise with

[John Hoffman]

a diaper full of criminal intent?

[Maggie Bowles]

A detail in this episode that was like so obvious to me and then, but and also just like so, like detail specific was that Dickie looks so much like Loretta, that the actor who plays Dickie looks so much like Meryl Streep that as soon as, like, as soon as it is revealed, I was like, duh, they look so.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Their face, their shape of their face

[Maggie Bowles]

could easily be her son. You know what I mean? Like, was that part of the casting process? Were you like, this guy looks like Meryl Streep, let's put him in.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, it's such a great question. It makes me so happy to see me glowing with this question because I, I'm. There's two. It's. Because it's two sided. One side is we wanted, you know, we knew the scenes that were going to be coming between them and there's more to come, but we knew we needed someone great and, and to hide and, and as well and be, you know, not catch the eye as much and then do what hopefully that it did for you with the general audience that like, well, duh, there he was all alive in many ways. But, you know, I think people will find it or, you know, hypothesize about a couple of those things throughout the season, which I think is already happening. But. And I expected that as well too, and sort of like seeding in the thing, but then the affirmation of it and then this sort of, oh my God. And having the story make a whole new reframe sense in the way that it does at the beginning of eight. So that the context by which Loretta arrives to audition and the intensity of that audition has a whole new meaning and everything else that thrills me. But Jeremy Shamus showed up for an audition for this part, and I was very excited to see him, but never thought about any similarity to how he might look to Meryl. But I just loved him as an actor and for years I had. He's a brilliant actor. Both stage, tv, film. He has a huge resume, but very well respected, particularly in New York. And he was nominated for Tony for a play. I'll never forget Claiborne park with my friend Christina Kirk, who was starring with him in that. And he was unforgettable in it. And so when he walked in the door, I was like, okay, I'm inclined, I'm inclined. And then he just knocked it out of the park. And in that, in. In that audition was only when I was realizing, oh my God, look at him in profile, look at him in skin tone, look at him in the eyes. And, and. And I was like, am I crazy? Am I just seeing it because I love him? And they're like, no, actually it there. Everything about him is favoring that there's potential that you

[Maggie Bowles]

little mystical sprinkling of fairy dust on the production maybe.

[John Hoffman]

I agree with you. It's a very, very. The only other time that really hit me as hard as that was the casting of James Caverly as Theo Demas. And you know, we needed a brilliant actor and that's what we were looking for. And then it was almost like an after effect was. And look at him. I believe he's the son of Nathan Lane. Like, you know, there's. It's very sweet when that happens. But yeah, the fairy dust was well at work and has been for a while with us.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So I love James and it was really nice to be able to see him again.

[Maggie Bowles]

So yeah, I was glad to have him come back. Cause you know, you never know who's gonna come back. You never know who's like, you know. And now episode eight, we got Detective Williams back. Yep. So that's exciting.

[John Hoffman]

In one of the great. I'm gonna call it just because I talk about fulfilling. And my wish was to give her an unbelievable entrance and oh, and then to watch her, boom, there she is, back into our show, back into the moment. To disrupt. To sit and probe during a sits probe, I'm like, that would be all of it. To see her walk in. I'll never forget when. Because it was a. She was very busy and a wonderful actress. I love the holy hell out of Divine. And I'm not secretive about it. I just think she's an absolute powerhouse genius.

[Maggie Bowles]

And

[John Hoffman]

no one carries what she carries into scenes like that. And so I was so hoping we could get her back timing wise. Everything worked that out and God love Her. She made things happen to get there. And also, just to mention Jane. Howdy. Shell back at the top of episode seven as Bunny.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's right.

[John Hoffman]

You never know who's going to pop up back in this show.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's true.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Do Steve Martin and Martin short know how to use GoPros?

[John Hoffman]

Oh, Steve probably does, yeah. Marty. Marty not so much. I'm going to say Marty has someone do that for him.

[Maggie Bowles]

Could they have pulled off that. That ruse in if it were Steve and Marty and not Oliver and Charles?

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, That's a good. Yeah, I think we definitely built that to, you know, thinking of the guys themselves because it's very much like it's. It's a thrilling, dopey ruse that they pull off.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I loved it.

[John Hoffman]

It's Almost like some 1950s or 60s scene of Steve coming in with that blanket and doing away the blanket. It's a little prolonged and all that. What show are we in? What? This is a little too dopey. And then when you come back to it, then it justifies all of it. So I'm like, just hang with us for a minute through this dumb, dumb scene about a weighted blanket. But it makes me very happy to sort of pay that off that way. And they're perfect in all of it, you know. Charles, let's bring the lady up to speed. Well, I went in first, making Williams think I was just an idiot trying to eavesdrop drop. But really I was piquing her interest. For, you see, Detective Williams is a theater nut. We knew she'd be interested in a Pattersong and doubly so if it involved Charles absolutely humiliating himself.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Now, I don't know if you've ever hit a deer.

[John Hoffman]

So I painted a picture of just how tragic Charles was on stage. The bait was set. You need to get me the time

[Ryan Tillotson]

to sneak past his failings of copper so I can set it all up.

[John Hoffman]

I've got this. I just have to say one word after another faster than any human ever should. She took it. And the interrogation room was left unattended.

[Maggie Bowles]

We're gonna take a quick break, and when we return, more from John Hoffman. We'll talk about the paper shredder and even more visual clues we've seen so far. One of the things we hear a lot from the directors as we've been talking to them is they don't always know how the story shakes out while they're shooting their episode. But you'll tell them, you should get a shot of that. Yes, you should get a shot of that. And they don't know exactly why, but they know that it's important. And I remember in episode six, we were watching, and I was like, ooh, shot of the paper shredder. That's gonna be important. That was too obvious. That shot of the paper shredder. That's gonna come back. And then in episode eight, it does. And I was like, see, I'm a detective. So is there anything else that I missed? Any other payoffs like that that I've missed so far in eight, or can we expect any more?

[John Hoffman]

You are right in my wheelhouse. These are the things that make me so happy for the show. If someone. Not. Is hanging, like, do you think that. Probably not. Okay, whatever. Maybe. Could be. I love that. So, yeah, there's a lot. There is. You know, that's a motif for us. And there is certainly something in episode eight that might go a little bit unnoticed that will give you that same feeling as we go forward in the last two episodes. For sure. Many things. Actually, there are scenes all through episode eight that will come back in that way. But the one. Gosh. You know, And I'm curious what you guys think of this, but just I have to ask because. And I made a big stink about it. It was a kind of a one shot that we went back and picked up. And then it didn't end up in the cut. So when. In the beginning of episode eight, when Loretta is telling her story about giving away her baby when she was young, and then she's at the table read. And the moment you see, and there you were, and Ben's just introduced Dickie, and it's this shot of her there that you realize it all in that one moment or affirms what you're suspicious about that way. But that shot was originally intended to be a shot that played back all the way to episode one, which was the moment where she lost her place in the script and didn't realize she had a line. And it's why she was distracted is because she's looking at Dickie right over Ben's shoulder, sitting behind him, and she can't take her eyes off him. So that distant look and that hang and wait when everyone is like, what's going on? Why is she not remembering? Her line was actually because she's looking at him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that. So we just don't see what she's looking at, but that's what's happening.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Wow.

[John Hoffman]

And the truth is, when we tried it and we put that shot in, it took a couple of beats to put that all together. And in some way, the thrust of what we have in now, which is just get the information out. It's Dickie. Oh, my God, it's Dickie. And it's her feelings about it is so big in that shot. So I thought, well, okay. It actually sells the moment in a bigger way, as opposed in a more emotional way than an intellectual way. And you would have had to do some adding up and remembering from episode one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Sure. Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

So it got a little complicated.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. It's asking too much.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, I am so excited for what's to come in 9 and 10.

[John Hoffman]

I know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I cannot.

[Maggie Bowles]

I am expecting a payoff for Tobert's big wad of cash.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, right.

[Maggie Bowles]

So we'll see.

[Ryan Tillotson]

There's a lot of 50s. There's a lot of 50s, and you can't even get 50s at an ATM.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know, that was Ryan's point. He's like, where's he getting those 50s? You can't get them in atm.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You've got to go to the bank for 50s.

[Maggie Bowles]

Or your weird cash guy.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's what. I'm tired.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, so we'll see him.

[John Hoffman]

And we talked enough about Meryl Streep in episode eight.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, no, we haven't.

[John Hoffman]

It seems so preposterous to me that, first of all, that she's taking part in our beautiful show, and I still can't believe it, but there are ways in which that, you know, we really knew we had to give her something and all of those things to play that she might like and do. But I hope it comes as a consistent surprise throughout the whole season just how amazing she is in this role. And the trajectory for her in this episode particularly just is massive, and nobody could do it the way she does. I think there's. And you'll see what I was saying about this episode is a big crux episode, clearly, for the. For the season, but it also holds things within it that will come back again. Importantly. But there is a scene with Mabel that, you know, in the midst of the emotional tenor for what she's holding together in this episode as Loretta, I just, like, I remember just being utterly dazzled, first of all, by a scene with Selina and Meryl together, made me very, very happy. And I just think it's beautiful to watch. But it's also. It's Meryl being so slyly funny in a way that only she could be as she starts tossing cast members under the bus.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

You know, I'm just going to toss out a name Bobo. Do we really know Bobo? You know, those reads and the way in which she played that. Desperately reaching out for anyone but Dickie to be in this. In these sights of the Investigators, you

[Ryan Tillotson]

should know that is a cast of much odder characters around this show. I'm just going to throw a name out.

[John Hoffman]

Bobo.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We don't really know Bobo, do we?

[Maggie Bowles]

And he's the comic relief.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But is the comedy hiding something sinister?

[Maggie Bowles]

Also, Poison was a woman's method. Oh, yeah, right, right.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So, kt, what a.

[John Hoffman]

That, to me is where, you know, it in every way that she surpassed what I could have ever hoped. What having Meryl Streep in our show might feel like or look like it. Just that episode and everything else she's done and where it's going, what she's still yet to do. It's unbelievable what it's meant to have her in this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

And that emotional, like her singing, when she says. When she makes the confession, stops.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I did it in the last mini area.

[Maggie Bowles]

We really got, like, the two ends of Mar. I mean, I'm sure she has no end. I imagine she's, like, round and ever expanding. But, you know, like, we get this, like, quick, funny bit with her and Selina. But then you also have that, like, heartbreaking moment where she stops singing. Oh, just thinking about it gives me. Gives me chills.

[Ryan Tillotson]

For the sake of our time I give my life completely for the sake

[Maggie Bowles]

of a child to hell and back I go no, I won't bend and I won't break There are precious lives

[Ryan Tillotson]

at stake who died before I'd ever

[Maggie Bowles]

let him go no, for the sake. No. For the sake Stop. For the sake Wait.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I did it. I killed Ben. I couldn't. Poison in his disgusting protein drink just before he went on stage opening night. And then when that didn't work, he showed up at the party and I. I pushed him down the elevator shaft.

[John Hoffman]

Loretta. No, no, no.

[Maggie Bowles]

Not going to let him.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, it's a big. You know, it's a. It's a orchestral episode, you know, so the grandeur of a theater and the orchestra playing for the first time and all of that feels as grand as where we end this episode to me. But it's pretty operatic in its own way.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, we'll see. You know, I was rooting. I'm rooting for Loretta and Oliver. But, you know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know, I know. I really. I love them together.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love them together. But I don't know. I guess we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what happens.

[John Hoffman]

I want to say so much. I feel I love your faces of, you know, I mean, I don't know what to root for anymore. I don't know if I like this person or if I should like this person.

[Maggie Bowles]

I mean, I still love her. I just, you know, I don't know what we can.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, you had said after we watched it, you were like, she didn't do it. She's just taking the blame or something like that.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't believe she did it. Yeah, so I don't believe she did it.

[John Hoffman]

Guys, these are really good theories. That's all. I need to be that guy. It makes me happy if there's. There's always questions. That's what I like. And whether certain things are proved right or wrong. I, you know, this season particularly, I was very much. You know, I think the fun of watching a mystery as an audience is. Is to feel the allowance of, like, it's there. I can. My hunch was right. Even if it's, you know, it's not upsetting to. To not have everything be shocking and like, how. And I think it's almost the opposite for audiences. Sometimes it's frustrating if they feel like, well, how could you have ever figured that out if that's the answer?

[Maggie Bowles]

Right.

[John Hoffman]

So this has been a bit of an experiment this season, particularly with the dance of giving enough that. Giving hunches that feel like. I feel like maybe it's this or that. And then when it's one of those two options, that is the answer. That's very exciting.

[Maggie Bowles]

One thing that we still don't know by the end of episode eight is who Ben was talking to in the dressing room. And I don't know if you've heard. We're getting a lot of theories about it, and I feel like they've probably. And I don't know, obviously don't tell us yet, but. But I would have thought we had known by episode eight.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Me too.

[Maggie Bowles]

Who's on the other side of the, you know, just out of frame. But we don't. Have you heard. Have you heard the theories that we've gotten yet?

[John Hoffman]

I love them. Yes. I love them. And we. We were all kind of knowing. I. I don't think there's one that, like, any of us didn't talk about in the writers room to say they're going to go there, they're going to go there, they're going to go there, they're going to go there. So we very much built it. So, yeah, like, who is that is hanging with real specificity but you know, and again, like I think episode seven, reintroducing that hanky. It's a lot of times it's like, okay, you have to remind and tee up again. There are key pieces of evidence that have been introduced that you might have forgotten about. And, and there are key moments like that on, on Toppert's video camera that there are a lot of things left hanging as we have to do, you know, so that's not to answer questions too early, of course. But, but yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that's really fun in the next two episodes to sort of the way in which we come around to at this time.

[Maggie Bowles]

Great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, John, we're going to talk to you again after we see them.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah,

[John Hoffman]

I hope you're as delighted by them as I am.

[Ryan Tillotson]

After the break, it's theory time. Accusation station, here we come.

[Maggie Bowles]

Choo choo. Foreign.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hello. Welcome back. Hi, Meg.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hi, Ryan. Welcome back. We are at the Accusation station. But first, a couple of things I noticed.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What did you notice?

[Maggie Bowles]

Number one, why was Donna throwing up in the bathroom?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, great question. Very good question. I don't know. Is she pregnant?

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't think she's pregnant.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Nervous? Nervous, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Nervous. I don't know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Anxiety.

[Maggie Bowles]

It feels, Feels important.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Another thing, I know that Loretta admitted to killing Ben.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

But I don't believe her.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She says that she put poison in his shake, his protein shake, and then she pushed him down the shaft.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I don't believe her.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, all right. Should we get to other people's theories?

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, fine. Yes. All right. All right. We'll start with email. I'll go email, you go Reddit. Reddit, like usual. Okay, so first of all, firstly, this is from Beverly and I thought this was really interesting. She noticed some Shakespearean connections and connections to the musical Chicago.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

She noticed that when Oliver has his heart attack earlier, he says that Bob Fosse had five. Bob Fosse was the choreographer for Chicago. She thinks that Dr. C represents Mr. Cellophane. And in Chicago, Amos sings about not being seen. And Amos also wears those fingerless gloves that Dr. C wears. And they also think that Death Rattle dazzle is a play on the song Razzle Dazzle. You know, give them the old razzle dazzle.

[John Hoffman]

Sure.

[Maggie Bowles]

And the dance that Charles Oliver and Mabel Doo is very Fosse esque in their sequin outfits.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

And she also thinks she heard a reference to Queen Latifah somewhere who plays Mama Morton in the movie.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow.

[Maggie Bowles]

Right? Tons Other thing, the Shakespeare reference is when Oliver, Charles, and Mabel are in the elevator and they make a reference to men doing women's roles in Shakespearean times. So maybe there's someone who appears to be a woman but is really a man.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Says, that's true.

[Maggie Bowles]

Szaz.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, she's pretending to be Charles all the time.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a good point. That's an interesting point. She also says, remember one of the babies in the cradles appeared to be a girl doll. And also, Shakespeare has several plays within a play, just like this season, there's a play within the show and a podcast, I guess. Another thing they noticed is there's a poster for Shakespeare's Richard two in two different places the season. And is Richard a clue to Dickie?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, definitely.

[Maggie Bowles]

Interesting, right? They also noticed that on IMDb it has two different spellings of his name. Dickie, I. E. And Dicky. Just.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I wonder why.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. They also said, I read somewhere that Steve Martin wasn't coming back next season, and so she doesn't think that he's the murderer, but maybe that he's gonna get killed in this last episode, which would break my little heart. And I can't imagine it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, no.

[Maggie Bowles]

They also said they can't imagine Meryl Streep committing to more than one season, even though it'd be great if she did. And they wonder if the limp is a clue to someone. Thank you very much for all of that, Beverly. I loved that. Oh, you remember how Loretta gets a role?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Grey's Anatomy with a limp.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's like an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of Grace Anatomy. Got it. Yeah. With a limp. Maybe.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She's so excited about her limp. I remember. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. So maybe that's something. I don't know. All right, moving on. Laura B. They noticed that the drugs didn't show up in Ben's blood work. So either someone is lying.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I feel like Dicky covered it up, you know? Yeah, that's my theory.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I don't know. He did say he's been covering things up.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, right.

[Maggie Bowles]

This episode, right? Yeah, maybe. Or I don't know. Or maybe they think it might be the fake pen. Lorby is also suspicious of Tobert trying to blame Jonathan, as it almost goes back to season one of Jan blaming Howard and then suspicion of KT's door being locked. Who locked it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Big question. Important question.

[Maggie Bowles]

And they're thinking that makes Howard feel kind of guilty. No, No, I don't think so. But I think, you know, they haven't seen 8 yet, so.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Got it right at this point.

[Maggie Bowles]

These people theory from seven.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that will be cleared up in

[Maggie Bowles]

eight, I think so. I don't think Howard did it, but. But you never know. He could be crazy. All right, Vinya, another one from Vinya. Thank you for all of your messages. Vignette. Her latest outlandish theory is that Ben was gay and that he and Cliff had a secret thing. And after the party, Donna came across them kissing in front of the elevator shaft and got so angry with Ben for kissing her boy that she pushed Ben down the shaft, which I love.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that too. I love that theory.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, another one. Holly, A. From the uk. She says she's stumped, but she went back and decided to watch the episodes again. And she noticed that when Mabel and Charles are imagining Ben falling down the elevator, they notice that Ben is falling from floor 10, which is Oliver's floor, and not the penthouse, which is so interesting. Very interesting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What floor is the penthouse? Or is it just called Penthouse?

[Maggie Bowles]

She usually says P. Right.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, it's definitely not full.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't go to enough fancy places.

[Maggie Bowles]

You definitely don't go to enough. Okay, another one. A couple more, Ryan, I swear.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Jay said that someone in the last podcast episode mentioned Saz possibly being the murderer, and I think that's the one that makes the most sense to add to it. Maybe says did it so she could get caught and go to jail to be with Jan.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I. I feel like we mentioned that at some point.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, well, that's. Yeah, Jay was saying that she heard. Yeah, she remembered this from the last episode. So that's an interesting idea. I do love it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I like that that SZ would do that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Heather W. Noticed there was a person lurking in the corner.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I remember hearing this email come in, and I was like, was there.

[Maggie Bowles]

I went back and watched it. I don't know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It.

[Maggie Bowles]

He doesn't seem to be lurking. He seems to be just, like, looking at the stuff, but he is wearing, like, a goofy little cape and he has his hood up.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Who do you think it is?

[Maggie Bowles]

Just, like a snake dork.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Just a snake door.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. All right.

[Maggie Bowles]

But Heavy thinks maybe this is someone of importance, which is possible. And then Nicole C. They realized that Oliver had a heart attack at the beginning of the season and it hasn't come back. Well, surprise. Nicole C. You've now seen episode eight. Oh, it came back in a big way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Big way.

[Maggie Bowles]

They've called that Loretta is dickie's birth mom. Good job, Nicole. Circumstances. Maybe Loretta has witnessed all of Ben's mistreatment of Dickie. And you know, she did something about it. So she thinks that Dickie and Loretta play into the murder somehow. And Nicole C. Agrees with you, Ryan. They don't like Tobert. They feel like he's preying on Mabel just like Alice did last season.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I feel that same way. I feel like Mabel is constantly getting screwed with the people she chooses to be in relationships with. And I feel suspicious of Todd. Why does he have all those 50s?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I don't know. A couple more really fun ones. Very quickly, Paul T. A music teacher says they're not sold on the Twitter triplet theory. However, in one of the early episodes where Loretta and Oliver are sitting at the piano, the score on the piano is a Calmist edition of box two and three Part inventions.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Don't know what that means.

[Maggie Bowles]

Love that from Paul T. A music teacher. Saw that little Easter egg. I'd love to ask John about that. Maybe. Or maybe that's a set decorator question. I don't know. Marion D. I looked into this for you, Marion. Noticed that Dickie tells Mabel that Ben set his watch 20 minutes ahead so he'd always be fashionably late. But setting your watch ahead ahead will cause you to be on time or even early. So I really. I really thought about this for a while. So you're. It's wrong. You're wrong.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Marion's wrong.

[Maggie Bowles]

Marion's wrong. Yeah. If you set your clock to 15 minutes early, let's say, then you'll think it's only 7:15 when it's actually 7:30. So you'll be late. So. Just wanted to help you out with that. And lastly, hello, Mustafa from Australia. Okay, Ryan, on to Reddit. Give it to me.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wow, a lot of emails.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you so much. I liked them all. They were all really good. Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Loved them. Okay, so if you haven't jumped into the only Murders Hulu subreddit, please do. It's wild in there. It gets crazy. But we have some lovely moderators that put together their best theories from the users that submit. And as always, we've got a message from them this week. They said this week the sub is heavily leaning towards a male murderer. Dickie, Tobert and Cliff are among the male suspects. Dickie's adoption reveal has people wondering whether he's a proper suspect or just a red herring. Some people are still leaning towards the idea that more than one character tried to kill Ben. So this week they gave me Six theories, but I still chose my favorite three.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The first one from User Storm pristine Wild Theory. Tabbert was working with Cinda to do the documentary on Ben because they were going to fake his death as Cinda's first true crime podcast back. Ben was in on it. And maybe a spin was going to be made to make Ben look bad in the end of the documentary for faking his own death. So Dickie canceled the contract. Anyway, I think it's very interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love the idea that Cinda and Tobert are connected.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, yeah. And that's what I. Obviously, I like this because I'm not. I don't like Todd.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So, yeah, Toddler's trying to get in there.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Because we got Cinder back. You know, she's trying to pull Mabel into her own project.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And that feels like maybe that's where Topper's getting all of his cash. What if Cinda's paying Tobert?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right, Exactly. That's the idea. And. And. And this person suspects that Cinda already has the, like, the copyright for bloody Mabel and it's like, taken over. You know, Mastermind.

[Maggie Bowles]

That was the name that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right, that he pitched.

[Maggie Bowles]

That. He pitched her.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, I wonder.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right? Like, that's good. Okay. Ready for the next one?

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm ready. Give it to me.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. This is from User Milton. The Hill.

[Maggie Bowles]

I think it says Schmill on the Hill.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This is from User Schmill on the Hill.

[Maggie Bowles]

Schmill on the Hill.

[Ryan Tillotson]

My current theory is that Tabbert was already in Ben's apartment at the time of the party, and that upon hearing someone entering, he hid in the armoire, much like he did with Mabel. And he was witness to Ben's private phone calls and potentially an argument between him and Dickie. Ben falls out with Dickie and takes his hanky present from him after possibly firing him. I don't know, maybe. Ben then storms off and forgets about the broken elevator, walking straight into the abyss of the elevator shaft and falling to his death due to a mistake.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking last week.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know. You were really on them on the accidental fall.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I think it's really plausible because he's kind of a ding dong.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And then Dickie watches this happen, which is why he's so distraught and says, damn it, Ben. Why? I'm sorry afterwards. It also would then give him more of a reason to buy back the hanky.

[Maggie Bowles]

Right.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And then Talbert watches all the. All of this from inside the armoire and intends to do, like an expose Kind of thing.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's an interesting theory. That's a very interesting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Two very similar ones. And I chose them because I am obviously suspicious of Tom.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, well.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, let's see here.

[Maggie Bowles]

Anything else you're gonna share with us?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I got one more for you.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think this one's a little bit more out there, but you read some that are kind of like that too. So anyway, this is from user cultural section 862. I don't know what that means, but this. This is them. Okay. I think Ben was already dead when he went into the elevator shaft. And Dr. C is heavily involved. I based this on some really out there evidence. I noticed that the ID number on Greg the stalker on his badge. 8291902. This is after a credit hint, you know, in the credits on episode two. Basically that looked like a date. And so they searched the date August 29, 1902 and found the attached article about a girl that have was already dead and fell down an elevator shaft while in the care of Dr. C. Wait, what? Isn't that crazy?

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh my God.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And then to make things even weirder, this incident took place a mil and a half from the Bel Nord, which is the real world Arconia. If that isn't Strange enough, on August 29th is also the day season three, episode five dropped, in which we meet

[Maggie Bowles]

Dr. C. Holy cannoli.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's like. I can't. I don't even know what to do with that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's wild.

[Maggie Bowles]

That is wild.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Can that be a coincidence?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I. I don't know. I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh my God. User cultural section 862. I am honestly floored.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know. We gotta find this article.

[Maggie Bowles]

Skills.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I want to find this article. Yeah, I know.

[Maggie Bowles]

It says article attached. Didn't you see it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, I didn't see it. No.

[Maggie Bowles]

That is. That is wild. Listeners, if you have any thoughts on that has. Did anybody else pick up on that? That's crazy.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Crazy sleuthing that is.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love it. It. I love it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's it.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We've done it.

[Maggie Bowles]

We've done it. Next week, episode nine. Oh my God. Thanks everybody for listening. Keep sending us your thoughts, your theories. Obviously, I love to read them. Ryan loves to read them too.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I do.

[Maggie Bowles]

And we can't wait to talk to you guys next week after episode nine.

[Ryan Tillotson]

See you then.

[Maggie Bowles]

Bye.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson. With additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohammed Samir. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt and only Murders. Theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Nabor and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

[Maggie Bowles]

We miss you.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We are pros.

[Maggie Bowles]

Which of the Pickwick triplets dated?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Ding, ding ding ding, ding ding dong.