S3 E9: Thirty (Part 2)

Summary

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S3 E9: Thirty (Part 2)

Originally released: September 29, 2023
Host: Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard), Maggie Bowles, Ryan Tillotson
Guests: John Hoffman (Co-creator & Showrunner), Dana Covarrubias (Costume Designer)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the penultimate episode of Season 3, “Thirty (Part 2),” exploring the episode’s blend of mystery and comedy, behind-the-scenes challenges, fan theories, and the complex process of bringing key moments and visuals to life. Hosts Maggie and Ryan chat with showrunner John Hoffman and costume designer Dana Covarrubias about standout scenes (including Mabel’s wedding dress), storytelling techniques, and the intricate balance between humor, pathos, and suspense that defines Only Murders in the Building.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Iconic Visual Motifs: Morning Turkey, Ladders, and Wedding Dresses

• Callbacks & Gimmicks:

  • The “morning turkey” joke from Season 1 makes a thematic return as “the ladder” and “wedding dress” in S3E9.
    • John Hoffman: "How do you say no to someone who's made you a turkey?" (01:27)
    • Maggie highlights how Mabel equates the ladder to the morning turkey: “No one stops a bride, and no one questions a man with a ladder.” (01:57)
    • John Hoffman jokes about Charles’ new method: “I can cry on you. An older man that's crying just upsets people.” (02:12)
  • They discuss how these motifs allow characters to bypass suspicion or obstacles in playful, unexpected ways.

• The Wedding Dress Scene:

  • The team discusses the challenge and excitement of filming Selena Gomez (Mabel) in a wedding dress, joined by Steve Martin and Martin Short in tuxes, on the busy streets of NYC.
    • John Hoffman: “There are always hundreds upon hundreds, sometimes thousands of people on that block… particularly Selena.” (03:25)
    • Costume designer Dana Covarrubias explains the logistical hurdles: they needed a 1950s-style dress, multiples of it, ready in four days.
      • “It is not custom. It is from David’s Bridal. I am not kidding you. But we customized it.” (05:32)
      • Adjustments included vintage-inspired lining, added gloves, veil, and jewelry to achieve the 1950s look. (06:17)
    • The emotional payoff:
      • John Hoffman: “The greatest day was when I got the photo from Dana of Selena in her fitting... She said, I feel pretty. I actually really feel pretty right now. That made my day.” (03:25)

The Art of Deceit: Story Structure and Imagination

• Interrogation Tapes and Layered POVs:
  • The hosts question how the show juggles whose perspective the audience is watching—the suspect's, the trio’s, or an objective reality.
    • John Hoffman: “The show does that normally with its storytelling, between reality and imagination, and sometimes the two blend a bit.” (08:49)
    • He likens the episode’s structure to rolling a dice, re-examining each clue and theory, and the writers’ efforts to balance assumption and earned data.
      • “It just felt visually like a really fun thing to have them present in those scenes.” (11:08)
    • Praise for the editing:
      • “Shireen [Davis] did a beautiful job... She had it in her head how she wanted to do it... It was great to see that all come together in the editing room.” (11:23)

Humanizing Ben Glenroy

• Character Depth for Victims:

  • The group discusses how Ben had to be both unlikable and sympathetic to make his murder plausible yet moving.
    • John Hoffman: “He needed to be a bit of a dick and a doofus... just to create many suspects who might have wanted to kill him.” (12:07)
    • Key Touch: Ben’s vulnerability is shown when he spends a night hand-stitching hankies for his co-stars.
      • “One of my favorite shots in the whole season is panning up from that needle cushion that he's got around his wrist as he's busy working away at the sewing machine and running lines.” (13:15)
  • The eating of the cookie—a pivotal, tragic, and humorous moment:
    • Maggie: “That scene where he eats the cookie is so heart-wrenching. And also funny. And also devastating.” (15:40)
    • John Hoffman: “It was way deeper… any of us who've had struggles with our self-worth, our feelings of what we need to do to feel good about ourselves, and then the punishing blows when we fall—that is what's going on.” (16:13)
    • The scene left the cast and crew applauding Paul Rudd’s performance.

• The Cookie and Care for Details:

  • The poisoned cookie becomes the crux of the case, linked to Ben’s vulnerabilities and ultimately, the reveal of Donna as the suspect.
    • “Happy birthday. They tried to keep us apart... but you found your way back to me, Oliver.” (14:34, lyrics read during cookie scene)
    • The discussion connects dots for the audience and underscores how clues were seeded throughout the season.

Fan Theories, Emails, and Reddit Spotlight

• Fan Emails:

  • A range of listener emails dissect blood at Ben’s mouth, the significance of props (hankies, posters), lipstick clues, beta blockers, and the “producers” insurance scam theory (see key quotes in next section).
  • Speculation runs wild about the true killer: suspicions on Howard, Donna (with the lung cancer theory), Tobert, Maxine, and the possibility of a staged death.
    • Ryan: “When someone confesses, I immediately think that they didn’t do it.” (33:13)

• Reddit’s Favorite Theories:

  • Moderators note that most fans see Loretta and Dickie as red herrings post-episode 9.
  • Theories range from Saz being the culprit (“Are we sure it wasn’t for Charles?” 29:04), Maxine plotting producer-style insurance fraud, to the persistent case against Howard.
    • Discussion particularly highlights the usage of mystery tropes: “It is like a classic murder mystery thing, right? To get the person that you saw only very briefly... be like, it was him all along.” (29:50)

• Meta-Observations:

  • The hosts marvel at the show’s ability to inspire constant suspicion and shifting allegiances, especially as confessions seem to add, not dispel, ambiguity.
  • Ryan on Donna’s confession: “Are we still just as far away from solving this murder as we were last week?” (33:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How do you say no to someone who's made you a turkey?”
  John Hoffman, 01:27

• On the wedding dress fitting:
  John Hoffman: “She said, ‘I feel pretty. I actually really feel pretty right now.’ So I was like, oh, that made my day.” (03:25)

• “It is not custom. It is from David’s Bridal. I am not kidding you. But we customized it.”
  Dana Covarrubias, 05:32

• On blending reality and imagination:
  John Hoffman: “There is always a bit of presumption, assumption within that, but from a basis of having earned that. So. And that it just felt visually like a really fun thing to have them present in those scenes.” (11:08)

• On Ben’s vulnerabilities:
  Maggie: “That scene where he eats the cookie is so heart-wrenching. And also funny. And also devastating.” (15:40)
  John Hoffman: “Any of us who’ve had... struggles with our self-worth... that is what's going on.” (16:13)

• On twists and confessions:
  Ryan: “When someone confesses, I immediately think that they didn’t do it.” (33:13)

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Important Timestamps

• Morning Turkey & Visual Gimmicks: 01:01–03:11
• Wedding Dress Behind-the-Scenes: 03:25–07:02 & 05:00–06:43
• Blending Fact and Fiction / Interrogation Structure: 08:49–11:45
• Humanizing Ben & The Cookie Scene: 12:07–17:12
• Listener Emails and Theories: 18:07–27:33
• Reddit Roundup & Final Theoretical Twist: 27:33–34:16

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode maintains the sharp, playful, and analytical style that mirrors the show itself—balancing genuine warmth for its fan community, deep respect for the creative process, and a delight in details, twists, and “aha!” moments. The creative team’s openness about production hurdles (like last-minute wedding dresses) and their relish in audience engagement (fan theories, visual gags, callbacks) makes for a rich, engaging listen. The future remains uncertain—even with a confession, everyone’s still guessing. As always, expect another twist ahead.

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For Next Week

• Listeners are encouraged to send final theories immediately after the finale.
• Speculation about a new murder in the finale is high.
• This is Part 2 of the episode 9 coverage—with the season finale podcast promised as the next stop in “Accusation Station.”

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Straw Hut Media. Do you need a screwdriver that you should be able to just do it right or you can't with these.

[B]

What if you push the mic in it further, all the way down? Will it be more supported?

[C]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I'll just sit up higher, Tim.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Is that okay?

[A]

I didn't want to crinkle.

[B]

No one wants a crinkle.

[A]

Very technical term.

[C]

No, no.

[A]

Hello and welcome back to Only Murders in the Pod. I'm Maggie Bowles.

[B]

And I'm Ryan Tillotson. And this is part two of our coverage of episode nine. Today we're talking with the co creator and showrunner John Hoffman and costume designer Dana Covarrubias.

[A]

We'll talk about the new morning turkey humanizing Ben Glenroy and Joy's mother's wedding dress, which looks great on Mabel.

[B]

After theories, here's John. Okay, so back in season one, we got to see the morning turkey, which. I love that. I loved that so much.

[A]

One of Ryan's favorite jokes, I think,

[B]

of the whole show. I love it. I love it so much.

[C]

I remember that. I will own that one, Ryan. I will own coming up with it as a weird thing that makes people completely disarmed. And how do you say no to someone who's made you a turkey?

[B]

Right. Well, basically, we see that happen basically twice in this episode. We see it.

[C]

We see.

[B]

We see it with, you know, no one will turn. Turn away someone in a dress and no dress in a wedding dress. Sorry, not just any dress. Wedding dress. And. And what's the other one?

[A]

No one stops a bride, and no one questions a man with a ladder. I think Mabel even points it out. She's like, oh, so the ladder is like the turkey?

[C]

She does. Nobody stops a guy with a ladder.

[B]

Get you in anywhere.

[A]

So the ladder's the new turkey.

[C]

It might work better if the guy carrying the ladder wasn't also wearing orthopedic shoes and dressed like a leprechaun. They sort of go, oh, so this is our thing now. Like, we've gone from morning turkey to a ladder. And then Charles has his third one, which is, you know, I can cry on you. Right. And an older man that's crying just upsets people.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, yeah, the wedding dress. I mean, we did talk about in the room at the beginning that that would be an image for sure, that might catch eyes, but we didn't. I didn't think that that image would come out as early as it did. But once we realized where we were shooting it, I'M like, oh, it really is now. So we knew we were on the streets of New York then. So I was like, okay, how do we manage this one? And we didn't. We just said, just put it out there. I guess I was perfectly fine with people just going to extremes of like, wait a minute, what does that all mean?

[B]

We. Because we heard about. Or we saw the photo, you know, I guess while you were shooting.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Of. Of Selena in the wedding dress and Steve and Marty in their tuxes. Tell me about that day. How was it?

[C]

Oh, I loved it so much. I mean, it was a process because once we knew we were shooting it where we were outside, there are always hundreds upon hundreds, sometimes thousands of people on that block that gather once word gets out that we're shooting, and particularly Selena. And so I have to first mention Dana Covarrubias. Brilliant Dana. Working with Selena to find the dress and a dress that felt like it might have worked for Joy's mother and also worked on Selena and what Selena felt good in and all of those things. So that was a process very quickly put together, which is not easy to get wedding dresses. And then wedding dresses fitted everything else, like a real challenge. And they. And it was the greatest day when I got the photo from Dana of Selena in her fitting, and Selena was glowing, and she. There were other dresses that didn't make her glow. And so I was like, oh, oh. And then the one that she was wearing, she said, I feel pretty. I actually really feel pretty right now. So I was like, oh, that made my day. So once we were there, I knew we were okay with whatever happened just because I wanted her to feel good. And she did. She looked stunning, that dress.

[A]

Dana Covarrubias, costume designer, told us all about it.

[D]

Wedding dresses, if anyone has ever been in the process of getting married, can take, you know, six to eight weeks to be ordered or, you know, made or a lot of them are custom. And it's not typical that you can just go to a store and have a size range of, you know, many, many different styles of wedding dresses. But then again, we needed multiples of it, and we needed it to be 1950s style, and we needed it in four days.

[A]

So is that a. Is it a custom dress then, or.

[D]

It is not custom. It is from David's Bridal. I am not kidding you. I am not kidding you. But we customized it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, I mean, this is what's so funny about television is like, you really are on such a tight schedule, and you just figure out how to make things work. And this is, you know, this is one of the things we. We did try a few different rentals. We tried. We sourced. I mean, we probably shopped 20 or 30 different dresses and then, you know, tried on maybe 10. And this one just looked so beautiful on her.

[A]

But.

[D]

But, yeah, this one was from David's

[A]

Bridal because we needed it.

[D]

We don't, you know, we don't have a massive budget, and we needed multiples of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And the one that came straight from the store still felt a little too modern. The shape was right, but there were aspects of it that felt a little modern. So we. We customized it. We, you know, ripped out the lining and replaced the lining with this more, like, cream ivory lining. That really helped it look a little more vintage. And we, you know, we added the gloves, and we added the veil and, like, little touches here and there, the jewelry, to make it all feel a little more 1950s.

[A]

Very cool.

[B]

I love that. I love that story.

[D]

It was fun. It was a challenge, for sure.

[A]

I actually. Ryan and I are married. I think we know that, but we got married last year, and I bought my vintage wedding dress from La Grande Strip in New York. Yes.

[D]

Oh, amazing. Oh, that place is amazing.

[A]

Such a great store.

[B]

See, Meg, you could have just gone to David's Bridal.

[A]

You just go to David's Bridal. Okay, back to John Hoffman.

[C]

There are pictures from that day from paparazzi and from everyone else that I was looking at on the street. As we were shooting, the paparazzi guys were coming over to me going, look at this shot. I'm like, oh, my God. It was the most arresting, stunning, beautiful thing in the archway of the Bel Nord there. And she just looked so beautiful. And the guys looked great in their tuxes. I just. And then there's that little homage. You know, we are not shy with an homage. But once they arrive in episode nine at that courthouse, the guys with their fathers of the bride joke just seem like a perfect, natural. Easy, just throw it away, but, you know, drop it in.

[B]

Hey, whoa, slow down.

[A]

Y' all got an appointment? It's my wedding, ma'. Am. And you guys are.

[C]

What are two dads? That's right. We're the fathers of the bride.

[B]

Oh, that's fun.

[A]

So you got a groom in there? Why does there always have to be a groom? So one of my favorite things about this episode is the way that we get to watch the drama unfold with the trio. So they get to watch the interrogation tapes, and then we see all of These very plausible scenes take place, culminating, obviously with Donna poisoning the cookie. But I'm wondering, how do you think about point of view in this stuff? Because, you know, there's like two levels of zoom out, right? Like, you're getting a story from someone in the interrogation, but then you're also getting the treat, imagining it and reconstructing it. So how do you.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, as the viewer, you don't know what you're actually seeing.

[A]

You don't know how trustworthy what you're seeing really is. So how do you balance that reality and imagination?

[C]

I love that. And, you know, the show does that normally with its storytelling, between the reality and imagination, and sometimes the two blend a bit. And in this case, you know, we had had this dearth of the trio actually working together on the case, and some people were very frustrated by that. Some people felt, you know, they understood the narrative reasons for, you know, the challenges and the arc set up for each of those characters in this season to earn their friendship and come right back around to who they were, they had to really overcome a lot. So in this case, this moment, and I have to mention, brilliant Elaine Ko, who wrote this episode, really dug deep to sort of get into all of the details with our writers and everyone else on all of the things we had to touch and keep track of for the case. And each time we did it, we were thinking. I was always thinking of a little dice, and you roll it over and you go, okay, that one's done, that one's done, that one's done. And you explain things. Now, in this case, we had an episode to sort of gather them back up together to do this. I liked the notion that through the interrogations, we could do something a bit different with that and. And sort of place them in those scenes in their imagination. And in doing that, they were a combination. And it's what I think happens probably with investigators. There's always a bit of the imagination there. Like, you're not there for the moment, but you're reconstructing a moment, and you're reconstructing it based on everything they've gathered throughout the last eight episodes for our show and the interrogations and having come to know where everyone might have been and all of that and what might have happened. So there is always a bit of presumption assumption within. Within that, but from a basis of. Of having earned that. So. And that it just felt visually like a really fun thing to have them present in those scenes.

[A]

I love just the visuals of them sitting in the theater and them walking around. And also the way that it was cut into them back in the interrogation, back at the board. Back at the murder board. I just thought it was really so

[B]

gratifying to see them putting a puzzle together like that is just really.

[C]

Oh, I'm happy to hear that. Yeah. Shireen did a beautiful job. Shereen Davis really was on this one, and as she always is. And she had it in her head how she wanted to do it. And a lot of us, you know, she's really earned the trust here on our show. So it was great to see that all come together in the editing room, particularly.

[B]

Okay, well, so I want to talk about the cookie.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But that scene. Oh, my gosh, we just learned so much about Ben in this episode.

[A]

You know, I felt for him, and obviously, you know, Charles feels for him, too. But then at the same time, he's also still kind of a doofus. I don't know. Can you just talk about what we've learned about Ben now that we're at the end of episode nine?

[C]

You know, he needed to be a bit of a dick and a doofus and all of those other things just to create many suspects who might have wanted to kill him. And it's an interesting, fun thing to see Paul Ruddy, the nicest guy in the world, play that part for sure. However, we did feel and, you know, if. If there's a feeling around our victims that, you know, what, can we humanize them more? Can we understand them more? Can we get deeper and like them more? We did that in two episodes. We did that in episode two. His struggles with feeling phony and feeling like a fraud. So thinking in terms of that, Thinking in terms of Ben's full life and everything else and coming around to some deeper humanizing that also could be funny. Felt like a good opportunity and to pull around the hankies, to understand those gifts that meant something to him and that ultimately will bear out to be the thing that brings his murderer to justice.

[B]

Who knows how many days he spent sewing those with his ladies.

[A]

You know, just in the nick of time, too.

[C]

It's one of my favorite shots in the whole season, is panning up from that needle cushion that he's got around his wrist as he's busy working away at the sewing machine and running lines.

[A]

We stayed up all night helping him sew these lovely hankies for his chaos crew. Wow. Running lines.

[B]

Everyone else in that lighthouse is dead nanny.

[A]

So the killer is either you, me, or the baby. I wouldn't bet on that baby, Detective.

[C]

But it felt like understanding the heat of what happened between Loretta and Dicky and Ben, the miscommunications, the misunderstandings, but the depth of it all and, you know, everything. We teed up about that half hour and it all felt really fun in a certain way to sort of have an episode based on that half hour and marry it with Mabel's 30th birthday. So hence it's called 30. You've got all of that going on.

[B]

The candle in dip.

[C]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. That cracked the cookie case. Happy birthday. Thank you.

[B]

They tried to keep us apart make me stick to my heart, healthy diet. But you found your way back to me, Oliver.

[A]

Keep going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I know you feel it too. You want me. No, you need me to tear into you, you naughty little mistress.

[A]

I know who Ben was talking to.

[C]

I was in a way very happy to sort of see people guessing in good numbers that potentially there's a cookie there. But then, you know, I think it gets confused throughout the season with what's written on the mirror and, oh, wait a minute now. And once we understand Loretta had called him that. But I love reading and watching people deduce and sort of put things together. And so hopefully it feels like a payoff. That feels like a little pat on the head to all of our fans. But hopefully the way in which that went down is much deeper and much more surprising.

[A]

Much more from that than I would have ever expected. I mean, I think that that that scene where he eats the cookie is so heart wrenching. And also funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also devastating. And the fact that it was one cookie, you know, also it wasn't all the cookies. It was one cookie that sent him into this spiral. Which also is really sad because it's not like he gorged himself. He was fasting and he ate a cookie, you know, and so I really felt for him.

[C]

We were all so wildly impressed with Paul in that moment because it was way deeper. Right out of the gate. We were all kind of dazzled. Cause that was one of those moments. And there they were, you know, Selina, Steve and Marty were all just sitting on that couch watching him up close as he's doing it. And he acts to act like they're not there. And we all just broke out in applause. And I think, you know, than any of us who've had. And he struggles with our own self worth, our own feelings of what we need to do to feel good about ourselves. And then the punishing blows when we fall. That is what's going on. And it had to Be a part of something bigger and deeper to make him such a douche on that day. And in that moment, he was dealing with a lot going on. And that's what, you know, Charles works up maybe a single tier or a half tier.

[A]

It gets really close.

[B]

Very close. It's really trying.

[C]

He gets really close.

[A]

We have our killer, Donna, which means

[B]

we can get Loretta out.

[C]

I don't know. Her arraignment's in 20 minutes, and the courthouse is way downtown, and I'm all out of ladders, and I can't cry twice in one day unless I think of my dad or my mom or any moment from my childhood.

[A]

Good.

[C]

Mabel, what is it?

[A]

Nobody stops a bride. Okay, after the break, it's theory time. Choo choo. Welcome back. It's time for the Accusation station. I'm going to start with some emails. Then, Ryan, you're going to go through the. The Reddit.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Sound good? Okay, so first of all, thank you, everybody, for sending us emails. We absolutely love, love, love getting them

[B]

some big emails this. This week.

[A]

Big emails. Really big. Okay, first one from Nisha. Hopefully I'm saying that right. She noticed that there's a shot of Ben after he passes out on opening night, and he's got blood all over his mouth, which means that either Ben pretended to be poisoned and he put the blood on himself, which she doesn't buy that. Or he was actually poisoned and it was not an accident. Which is.

[B]

Yeah, we see the blood on his mouth when he comes in and he apologizes to everybody.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

Because I assume like, he, like, bit his tongue or something is kind of

[A]

what I. Oh, I think he said that, actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doesn't he say, like, I bit the shit out of my tongue? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think that's the. I think that's what that is.

[A]

Okay. Okay. They also noticed that the DP Kyle, when we talked to him, said Ben was pushed. And so they don't believe it's an accident. So she does not buy.

[B]

Was that an accident?

[A]

Nisha does not buy the accident theories.

[B]

Because of that interview.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting. They also don't like the twin theory. And so, you know, thanks for that, Nisha. I think you're probably right.

[B]

No twins.

[A]

No. Like, no, I think it wasn't an accident. Now that we've got. I mean, now Nisha hasn't seen episode nine, but we have, and now we know that something very sinister happened with Donna.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

Okay. Catherine F. Sent us a couple of emails. Thank you, Katherine. She noticed something that I think I Mentioned before, which is that when we see Ben falling down the elevator, he's not holding the hanky.

[B]

I know he's not.

[A]

So far we don't have an answer for that yet. At nine, but worth considering.

[B]

It's very interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when you hear. Again, back to Kyle's interview, you know, when you hear about how they shot that, they would have had to. They couldn't have the hanky there. Or I guess it could have been in his hand.

[A]

Yeah, it would have been in his hand. That's where it was.

[B]

Yeah. So I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. Scripty. You want to get at us? They also noticed that there's a poster for Richard ii. Richard ii? I thought it was Richard iii. Isn't that the name of the play?

[B]

Anyways, maybe Oliver did Richard ii.

[A]

Oh, that's a good one. That might be funny. They noticed that it features prominently and wondering if it's a reference to Dickie or a different Richard. And they noticed that Donna had made that comment to Meryl Streep about doing anything for your child. Yeah, I noticed that too.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Katherine F. Thank you for those. Thanks to Denise for the shout out. Thanks for your support. We appreciate you. Next, Alyssa from Michigan. Thank you for sending your quite long email and the pictures of your very cute dogs.

[B]

Very cute.

[A]

She wanted to mention that she came across that photo of Meryl Streep and Paul Rudd dancing and noticed that Paul Rudd has a beard.

[B]

It's a photo that John Hoffman posted on his Instagram and it got picked up by a few places.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it has Meryl Streep in some kind of outfit, Paul Rudd in some kind of detective looking outfit. Dancing.

[A]

Yeah. And Paul Rudd has a beard, but he doesn't have a beard in the season. So maybe some kind of a clue to a second Paul. Potentially a second Ben. Interesting. Kylie S. Hopefully I said that could be Kaylee. Hopefully I got that right. They noticed that in the Pickwick triplets song there's a line that says indict the infant. And so they think that that maybe is referencing Cliff and that Ben calls him boy. So he could either be poisoning because he feels trapped by his overbearing mother or protecting her last investment.

[B]

It's interesting to think that there could be clues in this, in the music, you know, because we know the music is not written by the writers of the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But potentially they're collaborating and I don't

[A]

know, just something to think about that is interesting. And there is another email about song Lyrics which we will get to soon. This person, Kylie Kaylee, also thinks maybe it was Oliver who impregnated Loretta in the first place. And I feel like we've maybe heard that before, so I don't know. Something to think about. Next. Anita. She thinks Donna was funding the documentary and planned to kill Ben all along to make money off of that instead of the play.

[B]

Yes. Interesting. Okay. No, we, I haven't heard that theory yet.

[A]

Yeah, I, I, that's an interesting theory. They also think that Toblerone slash Tobert, I just like that they call him is in on it. Maybe Teddy Demas and that the Pickwick triplets would be Donna, Teddy and Topper.

[B]

Interesting. Right, back to the music again.

[A]

Yeah. Alana K. Another very long email. Thank you for that. She thinks that maybe Ben staged his first death on stage to buy some time before opening night after learning about the bad review. Or that maybe Donna has insurance on the play and tried to kill Ben. And that insurance idea came up again from another person, which was. Well, I'll get to it when I get to it, because I can't, I can't jump around. Laura B. Thinks that Donna might be sick and might have a lung cancer because she knows she was adjusting her wig and she thinks maybe it was her blood on the hanky that Ben was holding because she coughed it up.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So she also thinks we do know

[B]

that she was when we had that moment in the bathroom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't even notice the wig thing.

[A]

I didn't either.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

Oh, yes. This is the same, this is the email with the, with the insurance. Actually, it was. Right. I thought it was the next one. Okay. Laura B. Also thought maybe she has insurance on the play. And that's the reference to Matthew Broderick and Mel Brooks, because the producers. Right. Interesting. Oh, and that the name Cliff is a reference to the play of the mother being pushed off a cliff. I don't know. Okay, so interesting. Katie noticed. Katie and I think her husband were watching. And in Sits Probe in episode eight, Rey noticed something. I think I, I assume Ray is her husband. Okay. I think.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But when Loretta was talking in the bathroom, Donna was putting on red lipstick, which could be the same lipstick that was on the mirror.

[B]

Interesting. So she wrote it or just the same lipstick, we think.

[A]

I don't know. But they're both very suspicious of Donna now. And I think after they see episode nine, they're going to be even more suspicious.

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

Another one from Allison V. Who had told us about the beta blockers. Turns Out. She does have a background in medical research. Oversight.

[B]

Okay, okay, so it didn't come out of nowhere. No, it was an educated guess.

[A]

Yeah. And so she taught us a lot more about beta blockers. But. But this was another one of those moments with song lyrics. Working, working in. So she thinks that there's a hint about who's responsible and it's tied to the beta blockers and archery in the lyrics. Coochie, coochie coo. What if none of it is true? Has my inspection been too cursory? Should I look outside this nursery?

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

What if none of the Pickwick triplets did it? Who'd have had a menacing motive and hit it? So she's taking that to mean none of the suspects did it and the hidden menace was the beta blockers.

[B]

Oh, I like that.

[A]

Interesting. Right? John S. Has an interesting theory. They think that Howard Morris is the killer.

[B]

Okay, right.

[A]

Okay. So Howard knew Ben had a weakness for cookies.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He thinks he originally poisoned Ben not to kill him, but to make him too ill to perform so that Jonathan could play the part.

[B]

But also Howard wants to play a part.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Oh, and they noticed that at. At the party where Ben comes back and gives everyone the bad apologies that he told Jonathan that he's never going to let him set foot on the stage. And Howard was like, oh, I didn't

[B]

even look at Howard at that moment.

[A]

Okay, so Howard had a hanky of his own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He knew where Ben was going. And so they think maybe I just

[B]

don't want it to be Howard.

[A]

That's exactly what John S. Said. He says he loves Howard and he hopes he's wrong.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

Okay, last email. And then it's on to Reddit. Caroline was wondering about the signature on the COVID of Kobro and that the R maybe stands for Robert. And Tobert's name really is Robert. I don't know why he'd go by Tobert, but.

[B]

Yeah, my name's Robert, but call me Tobert.

[A]

But actually, the most important thing from Caroline is that she hopes that if Tobert is guilty, that Mabel will end up with Theo. Because they are.

[B]

I do like that.

[A]

So cute together.

[B]

I know. I want that to happen.

[A]

Me too. We're all. We're all rooting for. For it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, that was. That was the emails. Thank you for letting.

[B]

Thank you so much for the beautiful emails.

[A]

Thank you everybody for sending those in. We love them.

[B]

Okay, on to our slash only murders Hulu subreddit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Here is the message this week from the moderators. Following this week's very intense episode, people are leaning away from either Loretta or Dickie being the killer and think both are red herrings. A lot of sub members think the bathroom scene between Loretta and Donna was full of hints and think Donna and Cliff may be our murderers. Maxine's appearance in this episode also has people growing suspicious of her. Tobert is still a popular suspect despite not appearing in this episode. That was our message from the moderators.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as always, I have selected three of my favorite theories from the subreddit.

[A]

How do you choose? What's your favorite?

[B]

I want it to be something I haven't heard.

[A]

Okay. Usually you're going for new.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Or like, even if it is the same suspect, I want to know. I want to hear a new theory about how it was that a new detail. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So that's how. That's how I'm going about it.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

Okay. The first theory is from user Pizzeria Dia.

[A]

I love that name.

[B]

They say I really can't see it being Loretta anymore. My most crackheaded theory is that it's

[A]

says, oh, my God, Sass.

[B]

I read it somewhere and haven't been able to get it out of my mind. But it was basically about how Charles had no recollection of firing Ben when he was younger and the potential of it actually being Saz who had fired him.

[A]

Yeah, I find that very interesting.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Combined with Jerry's puppet for Charles looking more feminine, her connections with Jan and her giving a big hint in season one, crime of passion, and now seemingly season three. Are we sure? Are we sure it wasn't for Charles?

[A]

That's very interesting.

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

I don't know. It's interesting.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Did we see Saz in episode nine? No, we didn't. Right?

[B]

No.

[A]

So we also didn't see Sass.

[B]

We've only seen Sass in one so far, right? Only one episode this season.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. So it's interesting. I wonder.

[B]

Well, people are also, you know, throwing out Lester.

[A]

That's true. He's really small.

[B]

Very small.

[A]

And I mean, that is like a classic, like, murder mystery thing, right? To like, get the person that you saw only very briefly and be like, it was him all along.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay, tell me the next one.

[B]

Original garden 112.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's their user handle. I have a basic theory. With two possible endings, the show was produced to be a failure producer style.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, which was another email we got as well.

[A]

Two emails.

[B]

Two emails. Jeez. Ben was in on the plot the whole time. He poisoned himself. Quote, poisoned to get out of being accused of being in on the scam. His cohorts realized what he did when he showed up at the party alive, and then they tossed him in the elevator.

[A]

Wait, who tossed him?

[B]

And that's what we're going to get to next. Two different theories here.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

First one, Cliff and Donna were the ones that pushed him. When Oliver tells them of his plans to turn the play into a musical, Cliff is thrilled. Then crushed when his mother says no. Worried that she will take the show away from him because he now thinks it will be a legitimate smash, he starts to systematically poison her.

[A]

Cliff is poisoning Donna.

[B]

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Or Maxine, the potential cohort. Maxine is out to destroy Cliff and Donna and keep them from ever producing another play. Possibly personal issues. Maybe she was that singer or the daughter of the in the play at the beginning of episode one. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But Ben is in on it until he decides he likes doing Broadway. After his miracle resuscitation, she confronts him and pushes him into the elevator shaft.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Maxine, Another character we haven't just seen very much of. Yeah, so it's like, I don't know,

[A]

trying to think if Maxine would murder, though.

[B]

Like, how would you even know? We don't know anything about her.

[A]

It's true. We don't. Maybe we're going to learn more.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. Okay, and then this is a very similar theory to an email that you had just read. This is user active top 80 82. My craziest theory is that it's Howard. He is obsessed with Mabel's clothes. And being on the podcast, he's inserting himself into the investigation with the shredding theory and now putting pieces together. He was dating the understudy to Ben. Maybe his boyfriend was scared of the spotlight, as he said. But remember, the boyfriend also said that Howard is the only one who really wanted him to be the lead. Also, Sevillin the Cat was poisoned, season one. So maybe he took a page from that against Ben. Also, did he get a hanky? And we don't know where it is. Okay, so there we go.

[A]

Okay, so here's an interesting thing about these theories, right? Is all these theories are from episode eight. Now, we've seen episode nine.

[B]

I wonder if they still hold up.

[A]

And, well, like at the end of episode eight, Loretta confesses, right? And so. But nobody seems convinced that Loretta did it. In fact, it makes Them think Loretta did it even less. And so now at the end of episode nine, Donna has confessed.

[B]

Yeah, she's obviously looking the most guilty,

[A]

but something isn't right, right?

[B]

What's not right?

[A]

I don't know. Well, like, so here's one thing that I noticed in this episode, right?

[B]

When someone confesses, I immediately think that they didn't do it.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

I guess. I guess that's what I think.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, who would confess, right? He's like, deny, deny, deny. But here's the thing is when they're. I noticed that when the trio is at the board and they're going through, and they're like, oh, the. The letter. And they think it was Donna. Then Oliver gets hungry and Charles says, there's some red herring in the fridge. So it's like, is Donna a red herring too? Are we still just as far away from solving this murder as we were?

[B]

I know. Are we?

[A]

Last week.

[B]

I really like this lung cancer idea.

[A]

You like cancer?

[B]

I think that there's some. I think she's sick.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think that just.

[B]

I wonder if Cliff knows, you know, like, I wonder who.

[A]

Who knows, since she seems to be keeping it well. No, we don't know for sure yet.

[B]

Yeah, but the wig things. Is she bald? Does she got cancer and, like, doing leukemia? Trying to do the whole thing.

[A]

She's doing leukemia.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

Leukemia therapy.

[B]

Wait, no. Chemo. That's the word I meant. Chemo. Doing chemo. Okay, whatever. That's it for today, guys. But next week is the final episode.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay, so, Ryan, tell me, how is the Accusation Station gonna work next week? Because obviously, you know, we will have

[B]

figured out who killed.

[A]

We will know by the time the next.

[B]

Well, I have a theory that, like the past two seasons, there might be a new murder, right?

[A]

You think someone new is gonna die?

[B]

I think that it's very possible. Just based on that,

[A]

I wonder if it'll be someone we know or a brand new character. Like, I think last season, we had no idea who Ben Glenroy was before he died.

[B]

Yeah. But it was exciting to see Paul Rudd.

[A]

It was exciting.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows?

[A]

So next week, right after the season finale comes out, shoot those emails then. Shoot those emails as soon as possible. And we'll try our hardest to get

[B]

them into the final episode.

[A]

Into the final episode. Part B of the final episode.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you so much for being on this journey with us. Godspeed, sailor, and see you next week.

[B]

Bye. Only Murders in the Pod is a production of Straw Hut Media. This episode was written, edited and hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, with additional editing and sound mixing by Daniel Ferreira. Motion graphics for promotional materials are by Ali Ahmed with graphic design by Mohamed Samir. Our associate producer is Steven Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt and only Murders theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Big, big thanks to John Hoffman, Javier Salas, Emily Leets, Yasmin Azarakish, Lydia McMahon, Cindy Neighbor, and the rest of the Hulu team. And thanks to Keener and kk. We wish you were with us this season.

[A]

We miss you.

[B]

After his miracle. I don't know how to say that.

[A]

Resuscitation.

[B]

Resuscitation. Is there a U? Resuscitation?

[A]

I think. I don't know. I think so.