S4 E2: Gates of Heaven (Part 2)

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

Season 4, Episode 2: "Gates of Heaven (Part 2)"

Release Date: September 6, 2024
Host(s): Ryan Tillotson, Maggie Bowles
Guests: John Hoffman (co-creator/showrunner/director), Amy Ryan (Jan), Hannah (Reddit community)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Season 4, Episode 2 of Only Murders in the Building, titled "Gates of Heaven." Hosts Ryan and Maggie take fans behind the scenes with exclusive conversations featuring co-creator/showrunner John Hoffman and returning cast member Amy Ryan (Jan). The episode explores pivotal character moments, the beloved motif of "talking ghosts," the comedic and poignant balance the show strikes, and fan theories about the season’s emerging mysteries.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Motif of "Talking Ghosts" and Tonal Sweet Spots

• John Hoffman reflects on the show's tradition of returning ghosts, particularly Saz, as a way to offer both levity and emotional depth.
  • Quote: “All of that, you know, leans into the absurdity of it, but also hopefully… gives us an opportunity to learn in a way that's both comedic and poignant.” — John Hoffman [02:13]
• Ghosts talking back is a recurring motif, which the writers playfully acknowledge on-screen.
• Saz's ghost plays a key role in Charles's grief and the investigation, providing a mix of dark humor and vulnerability.

2. Jan’s Return and Character Logic

• Amy Ryan discusses returning as Jan, her character’s unpredictable logic, and the fun (and absurdity) of Jan breaking out of prison.
  • Quote: “That's our Jan. And she got out due to a nice mix of parkour that Saz taught her and psychosexual manipulation.” — John Hoffman [04:17]
  • Quote: “I think she's out of it. I mean, I don't know if you get the crown twice.” — Amy Ryan on whether Jan is still a suspect [05:24]
• The podcast acknowledges the audience’s ongoing suspicion of Jan and jokes about her always being the killer.
• Amy Ryan and the writers talk about how Jan’s character is both dangerous and comically committed to her own brand of logic:
  • Quote: “The thing with Jan is nothing makes sense to me, therefore it must make sense to Jan. Like everything in Jan's world, it all makes sense. And that's why she's a danger to people. But you know, that's New York.” — Amy Ryan [10:35]

3. Behind Jan’s Iconic Scenes and On-Set Moments

• Playing Against Ghosts: Amy discusses the technical challenge of acting opposite an invisible Saz.
  • Quote: “Technically, it's tricky because when you hear someone talk, it's an instinct to turn and look… For me, I should say the challenge is staying in it because I want to just be an audience member and watch Steve (Martin) work.” — Amy Ryan [14:04]
• The actors’ chemistry and playful attempts to maintain composure, with unscripted smirks sometimes sneaking into scenes.
• Returning to the set was a pure joy for Amy Ryan; she jokes about wanting to walk through the background if needed, just for the fun of it.
  • Quote: “I would do what? Do what? You know, I would just walk by in the background if they asked me. Just like, you know, Jan going to check her mail or something.” — Amy Ryan [12:50]

4. The "Oh, Hell" Card Game and Real-Life Roots

• Introduction of the "Oh, Hell" card game as a plot device—and a real game beloved by the cast, particularly Martin Short.
  • Quote: “This is a game that I played. Martin Short plays this game and has played this game for years… If you only knew the famous people who have played this game because Martin Short was the originator who taught them. It's quite a list.” — John Hoffman [19:03]
• Card game is both a clue and a nod to the trio’s friendship, blending real-life obsessions with narrative clues.

5. The Westies and Casting Fun

• Introduction of new characters, the "Westies," including Stink Eye Joe (Richard Kind) and Vince Fish (Kumail Nanjiani).
• John Hoffman shares fun stories about casting Richard Kind, writing insane character names, and the infectious energy the new cast members bring.
  • Quote: “Backstage stuff was watching Selena Gomez discover him and completely fall in love with him… If he wasn't available… I don't know what we would have done.” — John Hoffman [21:06]

6. Easter Eggs, Set Changes & Ham Theories

• Set updates (like new wallpaper in Charles’s bathroom) are noted by Amy Ryan, showing the attention to detail and evolving world of the Arconia.
• Hosts entertain wild fan theories about recurring props—especially ham and bathtub motifs—questioning their potential hidden meanings [24:24].
• Fan Observation: “There's a ham leg in the bathtub… And the other pig, the live pig, is also in the bathtub. Both pigs were in the bathtub. Do you think that's important?” — Maggie Bowles [25:15]

7. Fans’ Theories from Email and Reddit (with Hannah)

• Listeners speculate whether Saz or Charles was the target, if Saz is actually dead (“nobody, no crime”), or if the killer is lurking among film crew, old residents, or even a returning face.

• Popular suspects include Bev Mellon (Molly Shannon), Charles's LA scriptwriter, and even more outlandish celebrity cameos.

• The value of recurring characters and inter-season connections is a frequent theme.

  • Reddit theory highlight: “At this point in the season, there's not one clear suspect. People are unsure whether to look for the killer amongst the film production team or whether it'll be a good old Arconia resident…” — Hannah (Redditor summary) [25:43]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Amy Ryan on Jan’s tenacity:
  “I always like to think Jan is a proper New Yorker who never gave up her apartment under any circumstance.” [08:42]

• Amy Ryan on secrecy in Season 1:
  “There was someone said about, like, oh, I saw you get arrested. I said, no, we filmed every actor getting arrested… to also just try to keep the mystery.” [07:45]

• John Hoffman on character naming:
  "Anytime a new character comes up, the writer's room will end and I will get a text from Madeleine [George] going just to have... Each one was more brilliant than the next. I'm like, okay, they're all real and they're all insane." [18:14]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and Guest Intros: 00:25–01:24
• On Talking Ghosts (Saz): 01:43–03:38
• Jan’s Return, Logic, and Suspect Status: 03:45–06:01
• Amy Ryan Interview — Lying About Jan’s Guilt: 06:23–08:13
• Amy on Jan’s Obsession, Relationship to Charles & Saz: 08:29–09:58
• Psychosexual Manipulation Inspiration ("Escape at Dannemora"): 09:58–10:35
• On-Set Experience & Joy of Returning: 11:14–12:45
• Acting with Ghosts, Table Scene: 13:58–15:27
• Fan Theories, Reddit Highlights: 23:24–28:37
• Set Easter Eggs & Ham Motifs: 24:52–25:22
• Cliffhanger & Closing: 28:37–29:33

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Fan Takeaways and Closing Thoughts

• The blend of comedy and pathos remains one of Only Murders’ strongest pillars—ghosts serve as both plot and emotional devices.
• Jan’s return is wilder and more zany than ever; Amy Ryan relishes the chance to inject both menace and humor.
• The introduction of the Westies and "Oh, Hell" card game keeps the mystery fresh and fan theories swirling.
• Easter eggs and set details invite deep fan engagement and sleuthing (what’s up with all the ham?).
• Active fan interaction—through email, Reddit, and speculation—amplifies the communal fun at the heart of the show.

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For more theories, clues, and behind-the-scenes joy, tune in next week!

Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut Media.

[Amy Ryan]

Okay. I'm gonna hope I don't get any notifications.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, they're only going into your ear. We don't hear them.

[Amy Ryan]

Oh, okay then.

[Maggie Bowles]

Great.

[Amy Ryan]

Okay. I can. There's lots of things going in my

[Ryan Tillotson]

ear, so I don't know what that means.

[Amy Ryan]

I don't either. Lots of thoughts.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, God.

[Amy Ryan]

Lots of multitasking thoughts. Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right.

[Amy Ryan]

Hi, guys.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hello, Welco. Welcome back to the Only Murders in the Building podcast. I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I'm Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We are looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the Hulu original series, Only Murders in the Building.

[Maggie Bowles]

Today on the show, we are continuing our conversations all about season four, episode two, Gates of Heaven. So if you haven't seen episode two or if you haven't listened to part one of this week's pod episode, go do both those things before continuing on this journey with us. Because today, who are we talking to? Ryan.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Today we're talking to John Hoffman, co creator, showrunner, plus director of this episode.

[Maggie Bowles]

We'll hear all about his perspective on talking ghosts and how a cute vacation turned into an o hel a thon.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Plus, guess what? Guess who we're talking to.

[Maggie Bowles]

Guess who we're talking to today.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You've already read it in the show notes or probably in the title, but we're talking to Amy Ryan.

[Maggie Bowles]

We're talking to Amy Ryan. Jan. So we'll hear all about what it's been like being on the show, being back, and also how she makes sense of jam logic, which is not very logical.

[Ryan Tillotson]

No, sir.

[Maggie Bowles]

Let's start with John.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So in this. I guess in this episode, we see a lot of Saz because she has appeared as a ghost or as, like, a figment of Charles's imagination.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I guess in Only Murders, the ghosts always talk.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They always talk.

[Maggie Bowles]

Ghosts always come back to talk to you.

[John Hoffman]

It's a motif we have, and I think we call it comment on it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, he is talking to no one.

[Amy Ryan]

Hey, I've talked to a few dead people before.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hey, I once invented a whole Fosse number of you and Charles dancing. You had better gams.

[John Hoffman]

All of that, you know, leans into the absurdity of it, but also hopefully, you know, gives us an opportunity to, like, learn in a way that's both comedic and poignant. And I love that relationship between SZ and Charles and. And Jane. Wait till you see where it goes for her in the season two. It's. She's not done yet. She's beautiful in this season. But that's. That episode for me was, you know, it. It has maybe one of my favorite sort of sweet spot tonal places we go to, which is in the midst of something incredibly sad and upsetting and even horrific that you have this human comedy what to do with her ashes. You know, all of her.

[Maggie Bowles]

Put her in a jar.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes.

[John Hoffman]

A mason jar. Cozy. You know, that's good. That's where she. And then. So having her as a presence while Charles is trying to get his head around this terrible loss. Plus, what could have happened? And then. Plus, could I have been the intended? And I can't face that.

[Amy Ryan]

She couldn't find much doubling work because her height didn't match many women. She said you gave her the shot that started her life. She loved you. Jeez, this is getting sappy. She's the reason I haven't killed you. Despite hours of fantasizing, we also get

[Maggie Bowles]

in episode two, Amy Ryan back.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, Lor. Did that shock you?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes, it did.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, good.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, good.

[Maggie Bowles]

I was startled in the closet with blood. With her. What is it? What does she say? Like brain.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Brains.

[Maggie Bowles]

Brains.

[John Hoffman]

Prison guard brain.

[Maggie Bowles]

Security prison guard brains.

[John Hoffman]

Well, thank you, Saz.

[Amy Ryan]

No, I need to borrow a shirt. This one's covered in prison guard brain. Prison guard brain.

[John Hoffman]

That's our Jan. And she got out due to a nice mix of parkour that Saz taught her and psychosexual manipulation.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I just like imagining her doing all that.

[Maggie Bowles]

I also love that she's like, thank you for tipping me off about the passageways in your building in your podcast. It's like everything is, like, built.

[John Hoffman]

Yes. And how brilliant is she? I mean, it's just a character that I will never get enough of.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I feel like you guys do a good job of teeing us up for a suspect and then knocking it down.

[John Hoffman]

You know, that's what we hope to do, but maybe even leave it open. You never know where we're going. The twists take us a lot of different ways. Let's just put it that way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, Meg, what do you think? Is Jen out?

[Maggie Bowles]

Is she no longer suspect? Yeah, it's hard to say. So you know what I think we should do?

[Ryan Tillotson]

What's that?

[Maggie Bowles]

I think we should ask Amy Ryan.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do you think that Chan is out of the suspect, or do you think that there's still a chance that she had some hand in Sass's murder?

[Amy Ryan]

I think she's out of it. I mean, you know, I don't know if you get the crown twice.

[Maggie Bowles]

True. That's that. That alone is a very good reason.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's true.

[Amy Ryan]

It feels like every season, Jan's the murderer. Just over and over. The trio is really losing their touch and trying to figuring it out. It's just, Jan, I'm here once again.

[Maggie Bowles]

Who keeps murdering all these people in this.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I thought you were going to be a mastermind in prison, you know, like, you know.

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah, that's. That's the spin off.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, yeah, that would be great. I would love to see Jan, like, pulling the strings from prison as a spin off.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You know, I would watch it for. Yeah, exactly.

[Amy Ryan]

Hello, charles.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yep.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We spoke to you. I mean, not us, but the other host spoke to you on the first season of the podcast. I don't know if you remember this at all, but you. You were the killer.

[Amy Ryan]

Spoiler alert.

[Maggie Bowles]

We talked to you before we knew that Jan was the murderer. We were curious, what was that like doing that interview?

[Ryan Tillotson]

And you must have had so many,

[Maggie Bowles]

a lot of interviews, and you have this secret. What was it like to, to have that secret during season one?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Was it hard?

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah, I felt like. Well, I had even just a friend called. They're like, when they saw the first episode, they're like, oh, you did it. I said, no. Why? Why did you say that? They're like, I can tell by your billing what I said. The building of the show. I said, no, that's just, you know, I. And I made up some quick excuse, but I felt kind of weird lying. But I knew I had to. Like, I don't like lying under any circumstance, but, you know, I, I tried to push everybody off or, or I, I think I might have said something like, oh, yeah, that was intentional, you know, and then I remember when we were filming the episode where I get arrested, I said to John Hoffman, because there was like, some people out, like, looky Lou's watching on the street.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Of course.

[Amy Ryan]

I said, you know, there's someone said about, like, oh, I saw you get arrested. I said, no, we filmed every actor getting arrested.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes.

[Amy Ryan]

You know, to also just try to keep the mystery.

[Maggie Bowles]

But no, I remember hearing that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. When we talked to John, he told us the same thing. Yeah.

[Amy Ryan]

So. So I, you know, but I, I, I think, I think we fooled the majority of the people. Right. I, I think, I think people were surprised.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, yeah, we were surprised for sure.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Absolutely. We thought you were just gonna be this love interest to Charles for many seasons to come.

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah, I still am.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Amy Ryan]

She's still convinced Charles loves her, even

[Maggie Bowles]

though at the end of Season one, Jan gets sent to prison. She remains a character on the show. What do you think it is about Jan that keeps her involved in the goings on at the Arkon?

[Amy Ryan]

Well, I always like to think Jan is a proper New Yorker who never gave up her apartment under any circumstance.

[Maggie Bowles]

So she still has it.

[Amy Ryan]

She has it like sis. Miss, like subletter. So, you know, as long as she's living in that pre war building.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Amy Ryan]

That prime real estate, I. I think there's. There could always potentially be a chance to catch her. What's the point of a killing if you're not up close for the release? That's the best part.

[Maggie Bowles]

You remember, Charles.

[Amy Ryan]

I really loved her. Yeah. She has a thing for Saz, doesn't she? I mean, I'm sure it's, you know, it's. Obviously, it's Charles influenced. It's Charles who can be a bit more active with the stunts. Yeah. Jane is a. She's a blast to work with. And I like, you know, while we're waiting for the scene to be set up, whether, you know, props or lighting or something, she's just sitting in her chair and singing a, you know, list of show tunes kind of quietly to herself. She's got a great voice. I love that side of her that is just a musical theater aficionado.

[Maggie Bowles]

We also, we spoke to Kristen Newman, who is the writer of Episode two, and she mentioned that the psychosexual manipulation idea was based on the show Escape at Dannemora with Patricia Arquette. Have you seen that show?

[Amy Ryan]

I haven't, but I remember the story in the news.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Okay.

[Amy Ryan]

At the time. Yes. I wonder if. I guess Jan. Maybe Jan saw this.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think so.

[Maggie Bowles]

She's.

[Amy Ryan]

Jan is, you know, Ben Stiller and Patricia Arquette and Paul Dano fans.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Amy Ryan]

Chances are she saw that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Does that. Does that gel with you? The psychosexual manipulation?

[Amy Ryan]

To be honest, I don't know what it is either. But I mean, I. I suppose it's a more detailed process of batting your eyelashes to someone. But, you know, the thing with Jan is nothing makes sense to me, therefore, it must make sense to Jan. Like everything in Jan's world, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. And that's. That's why she's a danger to people. But, you know, that's New York.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, that's New York.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, what was it like being back at. On the set at the Arconia?

[Amy Ryan]

Look, it's such a joy. I really didn't expect to be back. It's one of those really, you know, only because, you know, I'm in jail. So what are you going to do? You know, that you can only do so much and especially for. To get the call to come back for season four. I was like, am I out of jail? I wrote to John and there's an email like, am I, Am I out of jail? Was the case thrown out or, you know, mistrial? What happened? He's like, sort of. I was like, okay, what's going to go?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. How much does he tell you in that moment?

[Amy Ryan]

He told me nothing until I saw the script. And then I was just, oh, you know, I just laughed out loud. I'm like, I'm in the closet. I don't care. I was just so happy to be back. I'll make it work. I'll find. I'll find the reality here somehow. But, you know, it's just, it's ridiculous. And I mean that as a compliment. It is ridiculous that Jan busts through Charles's closet. But see them filming those scenes, it's such, such, you know, the whole set in general. I mean, it's, it's not a mistake that the casts keep growing with these, you know, insane. Yeah, the, the, the people, the actors they have access to now is because word is out. This is the most fun you can have, like, going to work.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You know, I know we've heard only murders is the place to be.

[Maggie Bowles]

So.

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah, I, I would do what? Do what? You know, I would just walk by in the background if they asked me. Just like, you know, Jan going to check her mail or something. Because it's just a joy to be around every single cast member and producer and writer there. That energy is contagious there. Feels great,

[Maggie Bowles]

that contagious energy.

[Hannah]

You know what I wonder?

[Maggie Bowles]

I wonder if it's just as contagious as antibiotic resistant pink eye.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Nothing is as contagious as that. It jumps from eye to eye.

[Hannah]

Jumps.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, after the break, Amy Ryan tells us all about acting with a ghost. And John Hoffman tells us which cast member was completely delighted by stink eye.

[Amy Ryan]

Joe,

[Ryan Tillotson]

Back.

[Maggie Bowles]

Stay back.

[Amy Ryan]

How did you get out of prison? A mix of parkour Saz taught me and psychosexual manipulation. I won't bore or arouse you with the deets. Well, I'm not bored.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I feel like I saw you smirk in that moment.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, we were wondering what was that like to just ignore her, you know? And what was it like on set?

[Amy Ryan]

Well, technically, it's tricky because when you hear someone talk, it's an instinct to turn and look like towards where the sound is coming from. But John did stage one of those scenes where we're all looking straight out, you know, she's on the table and, you know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes. Oh, great scene.

[Amy Ryan]

So, you know, I wasn't looking at Charles really either, except for like one or two moments glance. But he wanted us all facing, so that was a help. But, you know, the trick of the, you know, the. For me, I should say the challenge is staying in it because I want to just be an audience member and watch Steve work. I want to just watch Jane work and, you know, and react to it or allow my genuine reactions to come out. So you probably did see a real smirk that snuck out because she makes me laugh. He makes me laugh. And, you know, but it's. It's. You just start to get into the rhythm, like, you know, the third or the fourth time, you're like, okay, yeah, I think I could do this.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That scene, though, at the table where Saz is sitting on the table and you two. Yeah, it's very sweet. You know, you. You get. I don't know. Can you just talk about that at all? Like, very. I mean, there's. I guess it is still, like, very funny, but it all so sweet.

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah. I mean, Jan is a cheeky one, but I don't know with. With anything I set out to do with this comedy or drama. I'm like, just try to find a truthful, you know, base to spring from and. And not think of it as comedy per se, you know, because if I do, then it's gonna get way too sweaty.

[Maggie Bowles]

I also think that it's probably kind of nice for Charles to have Jan there to reminisce about Szasz for a moment. You know, he's kind of reeling from this loss and.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, who else can do that?

[Maggie Bowles]

Jan is one of the few people who. Who. Who really knew says, you know, so maybe there is something heartfelt and sweet in that moment. I don't know.

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, she's in that way. She does think she's connected to Charles forever through if it's Says if it's, you know, you know, she's. She's got her hooks in him.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Where do you imagine Jan is hiding out while she's on the run from the cops? Does she have a spot she goes to? Does she have a. I don't know, a minion somewhere?

[Amy Ryan]

You will find out. The writers thought of a really good place and. But I. I also kind of. I. I don't know. I feel like Jan is You know, she likes a good thrill. Part of her is just walking through, you know, Times Square. You know, she's in one of the Disney costumes in Times Square under one of those big heads taking a P was with tourists.

[Maggie Bowles]

I would love that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, I love your idea of her.

[Maggie Bowles]

Is there anything else, any other takeaways you've had from being back this season or even just being involved in the show over the years?

[Amy Ryan]

I enjoyed walking through the set to see, like, oh, the renovations have happened.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Has it grown?

[Amy Ryan]

A little bit of redecorating. You know, Charles's apartment is basically the same, but his bathroom wallpaper changed.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Really? I had no idea.

[Amy Ryan]

Unless they used that for someone else's bathroom, but that looked different to me.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I assume Jan knows Charles's bathroom pretty well.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Absolutely.

[Amy Ryan]

She doesn't kiss and tell. She doesn't kill and tell.

[Maggie Bowles]

What do you think, Ryan? Are we gonna see Jan again this season?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I hope so. I think so. I hope so.

[Maggie Bowles]

I think so. I hope so too. Okay, let's go back now to John Hoffman and talk more about The Westies. Episode 2. We also meet the Westies. Oh, yes, we love Richard kinda Stink Eyed Joe, AKA Vince Fish. All great names.

[John Hoffman]

We think hard on them. And Madeline George, our brilliant writer who wrote episode four this season is. Is our go to name person. And. And anytime a new character comes up, the writer's room will end and I will get a text from Madeleine going just to have. And she would give each character that we came up with. There were five names for, and each one was more brilliant than the next. I'm like, okay, they're all real and they're all insane.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, the other thing we learn about in episode two is oh, hell, yes, the card game, which neither of us knew was a real game until we.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Until we googled it, and neither did Daphne.

[Maggie Bowles]

Daphne Rubin Vega. She said, yeah, so have you played oh, Hell before this? Or who's. Who's the oh, Hell connection? Where'd that come from?

[John Hoffman]

This is very exciting to talk about. I'm gonna get very serious about it because I feel like it's holy in a certain way. It's very, you know. No, this is a game that I played. Martin Short plays this game and has played this game for years and years and taught it to. If you only knew the famous people who have played this game because Martin Short was the originator who taught them. It's quite a list, is all I will say. I had the pleasure of playing this on a little bit of a vacation with Marty last year, and Paul Rudd was there, and so it was. And his wife. And we just had the greatest time ever. But as good a time as the vacation was, it was the card game that we were all focused on, because once you start playing it, you become obsessed. And all you want. All we wanted to do was play that card game to the point where on the flight back from the vacation, Paul and his wife, we all were on the plane playing the game. Still, like, passing. It's hard to deal to people in plane chairs that are in different rows. But we were that obsessed with it. It was the greatest game. And once we play it, I don't know, there's just. We did. Yeah. It's an addicting game. And I thought, oh, this would be interesting. And that simultaneously with Steve Martin saying, you know, I'd love to see the trio just sitting around a table playing cards at one point. I just think that's a nice. I'm like, oh, so we sort of married those two ideas, and it felt right. And then, of course, there were clues around that game, too.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I assumed that somehow. Oh, hell is a clue, but I have no idea how. But somehow. But it's like, we'll get there. Maybe.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, maybe. Well, it is the code to get into the apartment. We knew. We know that.

[Hannah]

We know that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes, yes, yes. Clues, clues. We're gonna get Richard Kind in here. He was just in here, like, a month ago and for a different show.

[John Hoffman]

He's everybody's favorite person.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's what everyone says.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

Because he's so authentic and just. You just are at ease. And he is a delight. He's the kindest, loveliest guy, such a great actor. And I think it was one of my favorite things of the season. Sort of the backstage stuff was watching Selena Gomez discover him and completely fall in love with him and just no one tickled her like him is how it felt like. And if he wasn't available or he. I don't know what we would have done in the writers room. I tend to do this without thinking, but we were talking about stink Eye Joe and Vince Fish and everything, and I had Richard in my mind. And so I would be like, I've got antibiotic resistant pink eye, and I would do him in the room. And people were like, well, he has to play this part. I'm like, believe me, I know. I've got to call up Richard Kind and make sure if he's not interested, I've got to make him interested. Yeah, that was one of the great days when when he said yes, and he came aboard and he said very sweetly, like, you know, you do these things and someone will say, you've got to do this part, blah, blah, blah, but you just don't know if it's going to turn into anything more than that. And he's got much more to do coming up, too. I was very happy. He said we all had the best time. Kumail as well, right?

[Maggie Bowles]

Who? We also love the three Westies.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Westies, right? Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

Oh.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, great.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, that whole group over there was so great. Daphne and Desmond and then Richard and Kumail. The Westies. I mean, that group. And then there's another one to come.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I cannot wait. I cannot wait. Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm excited. Who do you think is going to be the last Westie, and where do you think they live? Do you think that the West Tower has a penthouse, too, like the regular acronym? Do you think Sting moved there?

[Ryan Tillotson]

No.

[Maggie Bowles]

What if it's not Sting, but it's Flea or Pink?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Bono.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Or some other one named Celebrity?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, listeners, let us know what you think. And now let's read some mail. We got some mail this week, right, Ryan?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes, we did. Thank you so much for sending your emails and your thoughts and your theories. Two only. Murdersrawhutmedia.com we appreciate it. Reread them all. First, I want to say thanks to Catherine. We, too, like the idea of the murderer being someone that we already know

[Maggie Bowles]

rather than a new character. I agree. I agree. I would like that. Who do we know that is murderous?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know. I think they all could be murderous.

[Maggie Bowles]

So, yeah, push to the right extreme.

[Amy Ryan]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thanks to Vinnie, who thinks Bev Mellon is our killer. What do you think of that?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Honestly? Totally.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I think it's possible.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't know. Bev Mellon, maybe it's just Molly Shannon, but Molly Shannon seems like she could not hurt a fly.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Really?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I feel like there's so much more to her that we just don't know. But she's like. She's being sneaky. She's being the producer, you know, she's trying to do whatever to get things done, you know? So it's like. It feels to me like it is a possibility.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Also, I feel like implied in me saying that Molly Shannon could never hurt anybody is saying that Amy Ryan could.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's true.

[Maggie Bowles]

Which I feel bad about. What else do we got?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you, Dallas. Dallas says that they think a cold case from season one is linked to this season's murder. What do you think? I don't really remember the Cold Case from season one.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do we need to rewatch season one? Potentially two and three. Last one. Thank you to Anna, who has noticed an abundance remnants of ham.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And Anna thinks that there is something to the ham and maybe there's a clue to be drawn.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, we got a lot of ham. Ham radio, pig in the tub, ham in the opening credits, ham in the bathtub. Oh, you know what I just realized? There's a ham leg in the bathtub. Right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

The one in the show. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And the other pig, the live pig, is also in the bathtub. Both pigs were in the bathtub.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That is interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do you think that's related? Do you think that's important?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do you think bathtubs are going to come in?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know. Ham, bathtub. You don't know.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right. Lastly, if we received a message from Hannah over in the Reddit sphere, you're going to hear that. Now, we haven't gotten it yet, but

[Ryan Tillotson]

if we get it, it'll come in right now.

[Hannah]

Hello Maggie and Ryan. I am back with some of the best theories from the only murders in the building subreddit. Our members have loved the first two episodes and already have a million different thoughts, as I'm sure you all do too. A big question from before the season even premiered was whether Saz was the intended target or whether it was Charles. Notmandy says, I think Saz was the intended target with the added bonus that it hurt Charles, though it seems that after watching episode two, the majority of people now think Charles was the real target. Some people think Saz may not even be dead at all. House to Astonish says, I'm not convinced Saz is dead at all. Nobody, no crime. And a metal joint in an incinerator is just a metal joint in an incinerator. At this point in the season, there's not one clear suspect. People are unsure whether to look for the killer amongst the film production team or whether it'll be a good old Arconia resident. Signal measurement 52 suspects. Marshall, the scriptwriter. They say my number one suspect is the LA writer who may have signed a contract to receive a huge bonus if he managed to write a successful movie featuring the trio. No better way than to base it off riveting murdersome events in real life. Then we've got not Mandy, who thinks Eugene Levy would make a fantastic villain. They say. My fun theory is that Eugene Levy is a killer because he wanted the part of Charles so bad and thought Saz would be the studio's first pick. I don't think this is really what happens, but Eugene Levy would make such a fun villain, which I kind of agree with. And then Raven and Possum says I don't have a number one suspect yet, but I do believe it is a resident who knows about the Sea Ridge passageways and was at the after party in episode two we were introduced to the Westies and while our members find them quite suspicious with their ham in their games, they think they may ultimately be a red herring. Wolf, not Wolf says while the story would lead us to focus on one of the Westies, I think the murderer is someone related to Charles past, someone we haven't been told about yet could possibly be related to his dad's arrest when he was a kid. So we've got many names being thrown from Joy to Uma to Bev Mellon and Charles's driver. But as original Garden 12 says, I think it's way too soon to be pointing fingers. They are all suspects for now. Well, season five has just been announced, so who knows, maybe one of these names will turn out to be a killer eventually. I'll be back next week with some more theories from the Only Murders in the Building subreddit R onlymurdershooly thank you

[Ryan Tillotson]

so much for listening to this episode of Only Murders in the Building podcast. Please send your thoughts and theories to [e-mail] if you enjoy the show, please

[Maggie Bowles]

take a minute to subscribe. Rate Follow Us Leave Us a Review Answer a Question it's all super, super helpful.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Only Murders in the Building podcast is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted and produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley, Original music by Kyle Merritt and Only Murders in the Building theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Assistant Editor is Daniel Ferreira. Production Assistant is Carolyn Mendoza.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you to Amy Ryan for taking the time to talk to us this week. Thanks to Hannah over over at Reddit for compiling all of the theories. And a big, big, big thanks as always to John Hoffman and the entire Hulu team.

[Ryan Tillotson]

See you in a week. Less See you in less than a week.

[Maggie Bowles]

See you.