S4 E3: Two for the Road (Part 1)

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S4 E3: Two for the Road (Part 1)

Release Date: September 11, 2024
Host: Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard) for Hulu / Straw Hut Media
Featured Guests: Showrunner John Hoffman; Writers Ben Smith & Pete Swanson

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Episode Overview

This episode dives behind the scenes of "Two for the Road," the third installment of Only Murders in the Building Season 4. Hosts Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson are joined by writers Ben Smith and Pete Swanson and showrunner John Hoffman to discuss crucial developments in the series, the challenges and comedic turns of creating "Hollywood doubles," the meta hijinks of this season’s themes, standout comedic set pieces, and the return of beloved detective Williams. The show also explores guest appearances from this week's star-studded cast—Zach Galifianakis, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, and Kumail Nanjiani—while teasing new mysteries and subtle clues for devoted fans.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Recap of S4E3: "Two for the Road"

[02:08 - 04:44]

• Trio investigates new evidence with Detective Williams.

  • A bullet casing is found, and suspicion falls on Jan.
  • The plot thickens around apartment 14F and its mysterious occupant, Professor Dudenoff.
  • Detective Williams confirms that Charles, not Saz, was the intended target.

• Hollywood actors arrive to shadow the main trio for research:

  • Zach Galifianakis, Eugene Levy, and Eva Longoria play fictionalized versions of themselves, tasked with shadowing Oliver, Charles, and Mabel.
  • Amusing pairings and odd-couple dynamics arise.

• Key hijinks:

  • Charles and Eugene devise increasingly outrageous plans to get Vince Fish (Richard Kind) to remove his eyepatch, suspecting a gun-related bruise. The solution pivots between logical (eyedrops) and absurd (hard-boiled eggs).
  • Mabel investigates "Christmas All the Time Guy" (Rudy, played by Kumail Nanjiani), leading to the discovery of a suspiciously unburnable "tinsel" and a not-so-festive backstory.
  • Montage of Oliver and Zach's "magical day"—a Perfect Strangers-inspired sequence.

• Cliffhangers and clues:

  • A mysterious photo featuring the Westies and a person with a scratched-out face.
  • A ham radio message: “Meet me at 4:45.” An accented, ominous voice warns, “The last person who came around asking these questions got killed.”

2. Peeking Behind the Writing Room Curtain

[05:33 - 18:49]

• How the “brother sisters” and meta gags are born:

  • Pete Swanson candidly admits, “It was one of those stupid moments where I was just like, what if? Can it be the brothers sisters? And John was like, that’s so stupid that we have to do it.” [07:08]
  • Insight into the spontaneous, collaborative vibe of the writer’s room, riffing story beats until something just clicks.

• Bringing Detective Williams back—timing and approach:

  • Writers began scripting before Da'Vine Joy Randolph won her Academy Award, but were always hopeful to feature her—especially as her career soared. “We just wanted to make sure, like, she has a really fun energy with the trio.” [08:15]
  • John Hoffman lauds her improvisational brilliance and chemistry with the cast: “We cannot make this television show without her... If you only saw the stuff that's on the cutting room floor… every take different, every new thing... she's a genius.” [09:48]

• Celebrities playing “meta selves” for maximum comedy and character contrast:

  • Ben Smith: “Our theme was reflections—how seeing yourself portrayed in different ways affects you... Oliver is a narcissist obsessed with his portrayal... let’s pair him with someone who thinks of him as a shallow narcissist...” [12:46]
  • Pete Swanson describes Eva Longoria’s willingness for self-parody, opening up whole new comedic possibilities. [14:15]
  • Writers adjusted scripts when particular guest actors were confirmed, matching dialogue and situations to each performer's strengths and quirks. [15:25]

3. Scene Craft & Comedy Deep Dive

[16:43 - 22:56]

• The Eyepatch Scheme: Genesis of a Classic Comedy Set Piece

  • Writers discuss brainstorming numerous “eyepatch removal” schemes, from logical to totally absurd—at one point including hard-boiled egg gags that were ultimately scrapped.
  • Ben Smith: “There used to be an episode too, that there were pieces… what we thought were paint chips on the window were actually pieces of an egg, a hard boiled egg... And over the course of the scene, Eugene Levy would eat like 12 hard boiled eggs and then he vomited and had to take off the eye patch because of that. And it inadvertently worked.” [18:58]
  • Shout out to Matteo Borghese for writing the elaborate, monologue-heavy eyedrop storyline.

• Favorite improvisations, pig puns & on-set energy:

  • “Natalie Porkman,” “George Swinebrenner,” “Gloria Swineham”—the pig puns keep coming, many thanks to both the writing staff and guest improvisations. [27:18–28:15]
  • Richard Kind’s comedic chemistry with Steve Martin and Eugene Levy is highlighted as a “delight,” with several lines (like the cannibal joke) attributed to the actors themselves, especially Martin. [22:24]

4. Character Dynamics & Emotional Resonance

[28:21 - 33:13]

• Oliver & Zach’s friendship—Perfect Strangers parody and serious heart:

  • Writers credit Dan Fogelman for spotting the “Perfect Strangers” montage potential, which grew from a visual gag to a musical and emotional centerpiece for the episode. [28:35]
  • Inspirations from the film “May December” in scenes where characters literally become each other in the mirror—probing issues of legacy, image, and emotional honesty.
  • Pete Swanson: “If there was ever a moment where we were going to get some honesty from him about some of the origins of his storytelling and why he presents himself to the world the way he does, I think it was going to be with Zach...” [29:38]
  • Notable quote:
    • Zach: “I get it. You don’t want to be forgotten.” [31:02]

• Howard (Michael Cyril Creighton) comes to Oliver’s defense—comedy and devotion:

  • “There is no obstacle nor tragedy that Oliver Putnam can’t bounce back from. Think about what he’s been through—flop after flop after flop…” [31:46]
  • "You're not the court jester. You're King Lear... you're this elegant worm, this dressed up doormat, this technicolor cockroach refuses to die." [32:55–33:13]

5. Mystery Clues & Fan Engagement

[33:17 - 36:35]

• Potentially crucial hints called out:

  • The unburnable “tinsel”—a mysterious material—could be a major clue. [33:19]
  • Photo in Vince’s apartment—the scratched-out face of the person holding a pig.
  • Ham radio conversation with an accented, threatening voice.

• Fan speculation and the challenge of writing a fair, surprising whodunit:

  • Creators share anecdotes about fans or friends guessing the culprit on pure vibes alone—sometimes correctly, often not. [34:46]
  • Ben Smith on plotting: “We're still trying to walk that line of—it’s all there should you want it. But also, we need to... present whoever the killer... in a way that... subverts the way you think we tell our stories.” [35:46]
  • “And that’s why we love when it’s just like, let’s take off an eyepatch…so uncomplicated—there’s no meta trickery.” [36:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We cannot make this television show without her [Detective Williams].… If you only saw the stuff that's on the cutting room floor… she's a genius.”
  – John Hoffman [09:48]

• “I have a bag of hard boiled eggs in my pocket, and I'm just gonna offer a hard boiled egg to every single person we see. And if they eat a hard boiled egg, they must be the killer.”
  – Ben Smith, recounting a scrapped story idea [01:08, 18:58]

• “You're not the court jester. You're King Lear… you're this elegant worm, this dressed up doormat, this technicolor cockroach refuses to die.”
  – Howard (Michael Cyril Creighton) [32:55–33:13]

• “My success is my prison. And these ornaments… The reindeer. That gun from A Christmas Story. These are my jailers.”
  – Kumail Nanjiani as “Christmas All the Time Guy” [26:57–27:05]

• “The last person who came around asking these questions got killed.”
  – Mysterious voice on ham radio [04:51]

• “The photo in Vince’s apartment—the scratched-out face holding a pig”
  – Highlighted as a “big clue” [33:58]

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |----------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:08 – 04:44 | Episode recap, spoiler warning, main plot beats | | 05:33 – 09:09 | Writers' room stories, origin of "brother sisters" and meta jokes | | 09:45 – 11:23 | Showrunner John Hoffman on Da’Vine Joy Randolph & Detective Williams | | 12:25 – 17:16 | Writing celebrity "doubles;" adapting to specific guest stars | | 18:02 – 18:49 | Eyepatch removal schemes—eyedrops, stickball, hard-boiled eggs| | 27:18 – 28:15 | Pig puns, improvisation on set | | 28:21 – 33:13 | Oliver—Zach dynamic, emotional core, Howard’s defense speech | | 33:17 – 36:35 | New clues, fan speculation, the art of balancing the mystery |

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Takeaways for Listeners

• This episode illuminates how Only Murders balances layered mystery mechanics with outlandish comedy and heartfelt character work.
• It showcases the collaborative, sometimes chaotic energy of the writers’ room—with major actors joining the fun and often shaping their own lines.
• Detective Williams’ return, emotional confessions from Oliver, and evolving trio dynamics set up both laughs and new threads of suspense.
• Viewers are invited to play along with new clues (the unburnable tinsel, the scratched photo, the ham radio threat), knowing that nothing is ever quite as simple as it seems—unless it actually is, and someone just needs to take off an eyepatch.
• Next week promises even more behind-the-scenes insight, including a conversation with Richard Kind.

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For Devoted Fans:

Send thoughts and theories to onlymurererstrawhutmedia.com.
Stay tuned for Part 2 with even more Episode 3 insights and Richard Kind’s perspective!

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Transcript

[Ryan Tillotson]

Before we get into today's show, we want to take a quick minute to congratulate the Only Murders team on their Emmy wins.

[Maggie Bowles]

And guess what? Benj Pasek and Justin Paul achieved EGOT status with their win for outstanding original music and lyrics on the song which of the Pickwick Triplets did It?

[Ryan Tillotson]

EGOT status. They have won awards for Emmys, Grammys, Oscars, and Tony. Yeah, that's a lot of awards.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a lot. That's a lot of awards. It's every category. It's an egot.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You can go back and listen to our interview with them in Opening Night Part two. That was last season.

[Maggie Bowles]

Patrick Howe and the production design team won also for outstanding production design, which we agree was fantastic. You can hear our interview with Patrick in Opening Night Part three.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And Siddhartha Khosla won for outstanding music composition for a series. And you can hear our interview with Sid by going all the way back to season one. The episode is called Double Time.

[Maggie Bowles]

Since the beginning of the series, they've had 49 Emmy nominations and seven wins.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Congrats, guys.

[Maggie Bowles]

Congrats to the Only Murders team. We're so stoked. Okay, on with the show. Straw Hut Media.

[Ben Smith]

We go over to the west tower and I have a bag of hard boiled eggs in my pocket and I'm just gonna offer a hard boiled egg to every single person we see. And if they eat a hard boiled egg, they must be the killer.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hello. Welcome to the Only Murders in the Building podcast. I'm Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I'm Ryan.

[Maggie Bowles]

And we are looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the Hulu original series, Only Murders in the Building.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Today on the show, we're talking all about episode three.

[Maggie Bowles]

Episode three.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll hear from writers Ben Smith and Pete Swanson about writing the dynamics between the trio and their devils and an alternate plan to get stink eye Joe to take off his eyepatch.

[Maggie Bowles]

We'll also hear from showrunner co creator John Hoffman about the return of Detective Williams.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But first, a quick recap. And listeners, there are spoilers for episode three in this recap, so if you haven't watched it, hit pause, go watch and come right back.

[Maggie Bowles]

All right, episode three, Two for the Road.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The trio is going over evidence and Detective Williams shows up. There was a bullet casing by the windowsill. The feds think that Jan is the killer. Apartment 14F is the apartment of M. Dudanoff, a retired professor living in Portugal.

[Maggie Bowles]

Detective Williams says Saz was not the target and that Charles was. And then Zach Galifianakis. Eugene Levy and Eva Longoria show up. The brother sisters sent them out there. They want them to shadow the trio for character research.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Charles and Eugene Levy brainstorm how to see if Vince Fish is hiding a bruise behind his eyepatch. A bruise caused by kickback of a powerful rifle. Oliver tries to get Zach to like him and decides to spend the day transforming him into himself.

[Maggie Bowles]

Mabel is tasked with investigating Rudy Christmas all the Time Guy, and she abandons Eva Longoria because she says she works alone. But when she gets to Rudy's apartment, Eva Longoria is already there. We discover Rudy also has a ham radio and there's a large gun on the wall.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oliver and Zach go and have a magical day together while Howard watches the pig and monitors the ham radio.

[Maggie Bowles]

The pig that he found wandering the hall is very depressed. Charles and Eugene Levy bring eye drops from Paraguay to Vince Fish to try and get his eye patch off. But he applies them in the other room, so Charles decides to tell a joke. Eugene Levy does a spit take. Spits water in his face. And Vince punches Eugene Levy in the nose. Turns out it was pink eye after all.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Great scene. Eva's aggressive interrogation tactics lead us to discover that the gun isn't real and that Rudy actually hates Christmas but has to pretend ever since. A viral video.

[Maggie Bowles]

Rudy shows Mabel and Eva that the tinsel the trio found on Dudenoff's windowsill is actually not tinsel after all because it doesn't burn.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What is it?

[Maggie Bowles]

What is it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

After what Oliver thought was a very successful day with Zack, we overhear Zack complaining to his agent about the role and calling Oliver a narcissist.

[Maggie Bowles]

He says, underneath the scarves, just more scarves.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Howard comes to his defense and helps Zach see Oliver in a new light. He will immortalize him this elegant worm.

[Maggie Bowles]

Charles and Eugene make up with Vince and discover a photo by his door of all the Westies together. And in it, there's a person holding a pig and their face has been scratched out.

[Ryan Tillotson]

At the end, Mabel decides to squat in Dudenoff's apartment.

[Maggie Bowles]

Squatters rights.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Charles and Oliver come over. After an impromptu singing of the Perfect Strangers theme song, Oliver goes through Howard's notes on the ham radio and see the message. Meet me at 4:45.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's a ham radio frequency.

[Ryan Tillotson]

A mysterious voice appears. A voice with an accent trio starts asking questions.

[Maggie Bowles]

The voice says, the last person who came around asking these questions got killed.

[Ben Smith]

I love you, honey Faber.

[Pete Swanson]

Well, that solves that mystery.

[Ben Smith]

I tell you, drop this or you'll be next. Two for the road.

[Pete Swanson]

Two for the Road.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Two for the Road. I should have.

[Pete Swanson]

There was a time when it was Star Wars. Episode 2. Attack of the Clones was the full title.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And why ever did you decide to change it?

[Maggie Bowles]

Couldn't get it cleared, I assume.

[Pete Swanson]

Synergistic for Disney. I don't know why they didn't like that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This is Pete Swanson and Ben Smith, the writers of Episode three.

[Maggie Bowles]

So I think the first question is, what do you both know about the history, History of Wood?

[Ben Smith]

Very little.

[Pete Swanson]

Okay,

[Maggie Bowles]

that's Ben.

[Pete Swanson]

It goes back a long time.

[Maggie Bowles]

And that's Pete.

[Ben Smith]

But I was surprised that you could have a book that big about it. Yeah,

[Ryan Tillotson]

we tried to look it up and see if we could get a copy.

[Maggie Bowles]

There are two similar books.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, there are two similar books.

[Maggie Bowles]

Two similar historical wood books.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The Age of Wood is a title

[Maggie Bowles]

and I think the Splintered History of Wood was the other title.

[Ben Smith]

That sounds great.

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah, it's cute.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But. So this was a. This was an original?

[Ben Smith]

Yes, this was. It's one of those moments where someone in the room pitches something and there's no use looking it up. You just. It gets typed and then it's. We move on.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Does that happen a lot?

[Ben Smith]

I don't know. I think there are moments when it just like you're all just vibing and you're just kind of like riding a wave.

[Pete Swanson]

I feel like, yeah, you need a little line or a moment to get you through to the next page and somebody says something that everybody just instantly is, yes. It's a huge yes.

[Ben Smith]

That's nice.

[Maggie Bowles]

I thought those moments are really special.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I bet you they are. I think that from what we've heard from John and Kristen.

[Ben Smith]

Pete, were you the.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Did you come up with the brother sisters?

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah, it was one of those stupid moments where I was just like, what if? Can it be the brothers sisters? And John was like, that's so stupid that we have to do it. That was a nice moment.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's great.

[Ben Smith]

That's great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So Detective Williams is back and I'm actually really curious now. Academy Award winning day Vine. Was there any question, was she coming back or like, I don't know how that works exactly. Did you just start writing her in?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Or had she won her Academy Award when you decided to write her into the next season? Do you write differently for her now that she's won an Academy Awards? Is that why she got this monologue and she refused to be interrupted?

[Ben Smith]

She, as my memory serves, like she we started working on the season before nominations came out and before she won. But she had won by the time we filmed this.

[Pete Swanson]

Correct.

[Ben Smith]

So we did. Because it was an early episode in the season, so we wrote it a fair amount, a fair chunk before filming started.

[Pete Swanson]

And she was racking up the awards leading up to the Oscar. So there was a sense of inevitability, I think.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah. And I feel like we obviously hoped we would get her because she's so great. And we had no idea what this star turning performance in the leftover or in the Holdovers would do for her availability. But she's been so clear that she loves the show and that she loves the crew and being on set. So I think everyone kind of, like, knew we wanted to get her there. And if anything, we just wanted to make sure, like, she has a really fun energy with the trio.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love it.

[Ben Smith]

But we also, like, didn't want to go back and do the exact same thing that we do every year. So we kind of liked her caring about them. You know, that was the new color. Is that she was concerned she was helping them when she wasn't supposed to, technically.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Which felt like a. Honestly, it felt like a natural progression of things. It didn't feel weird or anything. You know, like, I love that she loves them.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. And that she's so protective over Zach Galifianakis, too. It's also really special. I feel the same way.

[Ben Smith]

Close the door. All right, so I'm gonna say this really quick. Cause I'm not supposed to be here, and it's not even public yet. And I really need you guys to know that at the end of the day. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Detective, are you helping us right now?

[Pete Swanson]

Come on.

[Ben Smith]

Cut that shit out.

[Pete Swanson]

That woman knows how to enter an episode.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Every time she does Simply walking.

[Pete Swanson]

And this time, the door opens and she just quietly goes, shut the door. I just love that read.

[Maggie Bowles]

This is John Hoffman, co creator, showrunner.

[Pete Swanson]

We cannot make this television show without her is how I feel. That's just my opinion. Cause I just adore her, have from the moment I met her and how she interpreted that part like nobody else could. And then just to watch this year that she had, I was. We were all just, like, so thrilled for her because she's really deserving and an unbelievably lovely person. And just. I remember last year, the episode she's nominated for the Emmy for the Sits Probe episode was the only one she was in last year because she was working and making Alexander Payne's beautiful movie. But the directors of that Bob and Sherry, who you've spoken to and are back again and I love, but she watching them discover DAV while they shot the sits probe episode, and they kept on coming off like, this woman is a genius. I'm like, yes. Because if you only saw the stuff that's on the cutting room floor of what every take different. Every new thing just coming at you, like, with around the corner choices in the greatest way. I just love her. And yeah, so we were very lucky. She was very kind and sort of amidst all of the hoopla and challenges and what a schedule you have to be on to be in that award circuit that way. And then to find the time to come and give us four episodes, I think.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah, that's great.

[Maggie Bowles]

We love her. We were so happy to see her.

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

M. Dudenoff, retired professor, who the neighbors are conveniently saying, he's not in town, he's in Portugal.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, that's suspicious.

[Ben Smith]

Exactly. That's why I said, maura, that's really fucking suspicious.

[Pete Swanson]

Cause who in the absolute fuck would

[Ben Smith]

want to go to Portugal but when you got Spain, Right.

[Maggie Bowles]

I apologize to Portuguese people. This is writer Krista Newman. You probably remember her from last episode, Episode two.

[Ben Smith]

I apologize to the country of Portugal

[Maggie Bowles]

to where all the Americans are moving

[Ben Smith]

and they love it so much. I understand that I am the only

[Maggie Bowles]

one who feels that there's no reason to go to Portugal when there's Spain. I get it, and I'm sorry for that anti Portugal message, but I feel so good that it's out there in

[Ben Smith]

the world because I feel it's.

[Maggie Bowles]

And it's so much easier to hear it from someone like Detective Williams, you

[Ben Smith]

know, all right, that's my whole thing.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So now please feel free to ask

[Ben Smith]

what other questions you have.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. Back to writers Ben Smith and Pete Swanson.

[Maggie Bowles]

So this episode was really. It was really big in a lot of ways. A lot happens, and there's like a lot of development between the trio and their Hollywood doubles. Can you tell us a little bit about, like, in the room, what the process was like, deciding what their dynamics were going to be and what they were going to explore.

[Ben Smith]

You nailed it. That was both the challenge and the fun of the episode. You know, just like peel back the curtain a little. Like what the meta conversations we're having are like. We're having celebrities playing themselves. What. How do we want to portray them? That is, like, different from what you'd expect, but also feels like two degrees removed from the real actor so that we're poking fun at real stuff. It doesn't feel like they're playing someone completely different, but obviously it's a caricature. And similarly, how is that portrayal going to affect our trio? You know, the whole kind of the theme of the season, John, came in early was reflections and how seeing yourself portrayed in different ways affects you or seeing your double. And so that question was, like, a lot of what we were doing in the room. And just to know that, like, Oliver is a narcissist who is obsessed with his portrayal. Like, well, we have to pair him with someone who thinks of him as a shallow narcissist. And a natural progression was like, what if we then reveal he has this sad, pining vulnerability underneath that Zack taps into, but also he's terrified of how they'll be portrayed. But, like, let's flip that. And, like, Mabel of just, like, the very careful and calculating and cautious but smart versus the brash, loud, like, let's just shake it up and see what we get by being ridiculous. Those became, like, very fun foils.

[Pete Swanson]

I feel like something kind of unlocked for us when there's a couple of great moments with Eva from episode one that I think helped sort of open up the game that we were playing with them, when she's sort of like, well, we're basically the same age. We're twins, you know, And I think Eva being willing to make fun of herself in that way. And I think we were almost a little unsure, even at first, if what she'd be comfortable with or, you know, where her lines were. And she was just so down for anything that I think it gave us a lot of space to play with that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Well, what that brings me to my next question is, like, how much did that casting affect the writing of those characters of Zach, Eva, Eugene, you know, like, did you know who they were going to be or how.

[Pete Swanson]

I think. Ben, correct me if I'm wrong, but when we turned in our writer's draft, I don't think that. I think we had a sense of who it was going to be, but they hadn't actually, like, inked the deals yet. And so there was a little, like, moment where I think we might have just called them, like, movie Mabel and movie Oliver, you know, when we were first. First writing it, and then it. Once it settled in, then we were like, oh, we definitely have these people then. Then we went back and did quite a bit of rewriting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. Yeah.

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

And I think we knew kind of, like, you know, because we're. We were driven by, like, Our trio, first and foremost, because they're like the ones who are the most important. And also, like, we know who they are. So we knew what arc we wanted them to go on. And so I think even as we did have to rewrite the episode a few times, the specifics would change on the actor side to match their voice and match their specifics of their personality and their history. But it was still on the same journey. So we always, always, whoever was playing Charles was a huge fan of Brazos and idolized and hero worshiped him. And Charles got a little, like, drunk on this adoration, only to then disappoint the person to be kind of a pathetic coward in the end. That was always the case. But the jokes would change, the vibe would change based on the actor we had.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I love Eugene Levy so much.

[Ben Smith]

Oh, come on.

[Maggie Bowles]

He's so perfect.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love it too, in every way. Well, okay, wait, let's talk about that scene with Eugene and Steve Martin and Richard Kind. Have you ever tried to get an eyepatch off of a man before?

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah. Drawn from real life. Both of us have been in that situation many times.

[Maggie Bowles]

Life imitates art imitates life.

[Pete Swanson]

What's this? Well, I was just bringing around a comedy legend, Eugene Levy, to help everyone cope with the recent murders in the building. You know, maybe bring a few smiles. And what's with the eye patches?

[Ben Smith]

Thanks for asking.

[Maggie Bowles]

It just.

[Ben Smith]

It turns out that Eugene and I

[Pete Swanson]

both simultaneously developed this pesky conjunctivitis, but thankfully we have these new, amazing drops.

[Ben Smith]

I just like context for that scene. Like, you know, sometimes working on this show, you get into, like, really complicated storytelling conversations and, like, exposition and machinations, and then sometimes you hear a pitch that's just like, what if a character's only goal is to remove someone's eyepatch? And you're like, that is so clean and so funny. And imagining Charles's character, like, trying to do that, like, you get giddy to write it to be like. So all you have to do is do a little bit of setup at the beginning being like, is it bruise or is it pink eye? The only way to know is to remove an eye patch. And so then we were, like, thrilled. And we had, like, tons and tons of pitches of different ways that you could try to get someone's eye patch off.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's one of our questions. We would love to hear follow up questions. We would love to hear some of the.

[Maggie Bowles]

Some of the rejected ideas.

[Ben Smith]

Well, one of the. What we ultimately did was like, okay, the most Logical thing is you would have eyedrops and, like, just ask them take it off. Like, that's like. And so that's what we ended up leading with. But our brainstorming session where they were, like, playing the concertinas, they were throwing out crazy ideas for how to remove eye patches, pinatas, or something. Like something where you want proper depth perception because you're swinging a bat. Because the stakes are. It was like, let's play a game of stickball and the winner gets to be king of the neighborhood for the whole summer. And it's like, with stakes that high, he would of course remove his iPad. You know, stuff that doesn't make sense.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's very valid.

[Pete Swanson]

Can you remind me, Ben, what were. I hate that. I can't remember this, but the eggs. What was the egg bit that we had?

[Ben Smith]

We had a whole different storyline where Charles. Charles's plan was like, we need to remove an eye patch. And Eugene's plan was, I'm really fixating on eggs. Like, this didn't happen. Like, there used to be an episode too, that there were pieces. What we thought were paint chips on the window were actually pieces of an egg, a hard boiled egg. And they were like, oh, my God, the killer eats hard boiled eggs. And you flip an omelet. Like, eggs. I don't know why I can't stop thinking about eggs. And so he's like, my plan is we go over to the west tower and I have a bag of hard boiled eggs in my pocket, and I'm just going to offer a hard boiled egg to every single person we see. And if they eat a hard boiled E Killer. And then in that scene, he would keep trying to offer Vince hard boiled eggs. And Vince would be like, I don't want your hard boiled eggs. And he would just be like, oh, but they're so good. And he would, like, eat them to prove how good they are. And over the course of the scene, Eugene Levy would eat like 12 hard boiled eggs and then he vomited and that he vomited on his face and he had to take off the eye patch because of that. And it inadvertently worked. And for whatever reason, we didn't do that.

[Maggie Bowles]

For whatever reason.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, my God. But that's a really funny.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, that scene, the whole backstory on the, like, eye drops. And my cousin, Dr. Salazar Savage, my

[Pete Swanson]

uncle, he went to Paraguay as a missionary in the 40s to help convert the indigenous Monte Gallo people and raise his only son. Again, the genius but criminally obscure Dr. Salazar Savage.

[Ben Smith]

Yes, that was all written Initially as a single monologue, it was like a page and a half long, all delivered by Charles. And it was written by one of the other writers, Matteo Borghesi. He just like, stream of conscience, like, let me tell you this story. I loved it. Which really had us laughing. And then we were like, oh, it could be fun to lean into the comedy background of the two of them having to piece together the story together. But all the credit to that whole scene to Matteo Borghese.

[Maggie Bowles]

Really good.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I loved it.

[Ben Smith]

And I'm sorry, where is this going?

[Pete Swanson]

I'll tell you where this is going.

[Ben Smith]

My cousin developed a cutting edge pink

[Pete Swanson]

eye treatment from the native Alava cactus, which is not available here due to some trivial FDA regulations. And I will not go into detail about that. Yeah. Anyway, the point is. Thank God. Yes. The point being.

[Ben Smith]

The point.

[Pete Swanson]

I mean, he was just such a delight the whole time. It's. And it was always him, which we've told him too many times now. He's probably sick of hearing it. But the original name was just on the scripts. It was just Richard Kind before we ever cast him. But he just felt. He felt so natural to the part. It was such a. It was such a delight. And he was so gassed up that day that it was him and Steve and Eugene on set just, like getting a joke around together. It was really fun. And there were some times where they were all having, like, a tough time holding it together. It was. It was like, very fun to get to see. And by the way, that it's important that that cannibal joke was all Steve Martin, which is just a real thing of beauty.

[Maggie Bowles]

That is beautiful.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That is beautiful.

[Pete Swanson]

That's good. Anyway, so these two snails are vacationing in Beverly Hills. Try it, try it, try it. A priest and a duck. No, no, no, that's not funny.

[Ben Smith]

You take it, you drink, you drink it, you drink it, you drink it, you drink it. Anyway, these two cannibals are sitting down to a nice meal of baked asshole of clown.

[Pete Swanson]

And one cannibal says the other, this tastes funny to you. That's. That's not a bruise.

[Ben Smith]

That is a pink.

[Pete Swanson]

Pink eye. Yeah. Antibiotic resistant pink eye.

[Ben Smith]

I loved his reactions during the improv. Back and forth. Like, the point is. Oh, so there is a point. Like those types. Like, he really sold it for me.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

I thought he was so funny. He's so funny the whole season.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I can't wait.

[Maggie Bowles]

I can't wait to see where Stink Eye Joe goes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. After the break, we'll talk more about the budding friendship between Oliver and Zach Galifianakis.

[Maggie Bowles]

Plus, who exactly is responsible for the perfect strangers reference? Welcome back. This episode we learn the backstory of the third Westy Window Christmas all the Time guy, AKA Rudy, played by Kumail Nanjiani. This is Ben Smith and Pete Swanson, again, the writers of the episode.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, so we get the history of the influencer Christmas guy played by Camille in this. How did that come about?

[Pete Swanson]

This was a combination of things. One of them being, starting with a water bottle that Ben, which is about the size of a small child, which comes from his recent delving into. I'm sorry, I'm putting you on blast a little bit here, Ben. But he's a fitness guy now. He's just absolutely ripped. I don't know if you can tell

[Maggie Bowles]

through the audio, but you sound more swole than before.

[Pete Swanson]

Jacked out of his mind. Works out really hard. He's getting married soon.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Pete Swanson]

And so I think that we were playing around with the idea of, you know, who are these people in the west tower? Who are these people that, you know, there's this sort of Tale of Two Cities thing that we've got going on. And what are the people that aren't movie stars like Charles Aidan Savage or, you know, whatever Mabel's situation is that she can afford to be in this building, but who are the people that have to scrounge and they're wrestling with their survival in New York. And I think it was fun to get into the idea of, like, what does this influencer look like as soon as the cameras go off and you're just in this sort of miserable situation surrounded by incredible set decoration. To be clear, I was absolutely blown away when we stepped on set.

[Ben Smith]

I feel like it was a funny. Like, it was a fun thing for us to return to the building as suspects and your neighbors as suspects, which obviously was such a big thing in season one. And like last year, we're in the theater and those were most of our suspects. And just to go back to that early first week or a couple weeks of the room where we're like, who are those odd. When you're just like looking through the windows of your. Of people in New York, like, what are those weird snippets of life you see? That could be weird. And the idea of someone just stirring a pot of sauce or someone squinting or someone like, obsessed with Christmas could be, like, grounds for. That person might be a murderer because they love Christmas that much and it's year round. So that amused us. And then to subvert it. We're like, oh, we want to undercut it. This person hates Christmas. And we. I forget you had the backstory that about their one sexy elf video. But it all made sense when they said it.

[Pete Swanson]

Also shout out to Kumail. He was very nice. I happened to be on set when they were filming that and he was getting the names sharpied onto his abs. And I mentioned that I had a wife. And he was like, oh, what's her name? I'll add it to the list. So right at the bottom, if you pause it, there's Marissa written across his abs, which is shout out to my beautiful.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Has your wife seen the cut yet or she hasn't surprised her with her.

[Pete Swanson]

I'm very excited.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love that. I love that. I can't wait to hear how. How she reacts.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She's gonna love it. I can't crack a hundred likes unless it's Christmas themed content.

[Pete Swanson]

My success is my prison. And these ornaments.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The reindeer.

[Pete Swanson]

That gun from A Christmas Story. These are my jailers.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Every five seconds people are asking me

[Pete Swanson]

if they're still on the naughty list.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a lot of names.

[Ben Smith]

Hello, Ad Abs.

[Pete Swanson]

Thank you.

[Maggie Bowles]

I think in this episode we get a lot of pig puns, right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes. I think at least three.

[Maggie Bowles]

At least three.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Like Natalie Porkman is the one I wrote down. But I know there were like two after that.

[Pete Swanson]

But we're gonna cheer you up and have a great day.

[Ben Smith]

Isn't it?

[Pete Swanson]

Isn't that right?

[Ben Smith]

Natalie Portman.

[Pete Swanson]

I'm guessing names and waiting for reaction. George Swinebrenner. She's obviously a she. Funny man.

[Ben Smith]

Gloria Swineham.

[Pete Swanson]

Then.

[Ben Smith]

I love you, Honeyfeit.

[Maggie Bowles]

Baker. How many pig puns did you guys come up with? And how many more will we get in this. In this season?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I guess this seems to be a pig.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's very ham heavy.

[Pete Swanson]

It's a ham heavy episode. We got the ham radio.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Exactly.

[Pete Swanson]

Ham fitmaker. There was Ben. You know it. But there was one that got left on the cutting room floor. That was a Zach improvisation that I thought was pretty good. You can say it.

[Ben Smith]

Purk.

[Pete Swanson]

And wasn't there Piggy Stardust was another one. Did that make the episode? I can't remember.

[Ben Smith]

That was like our happy place Whenever we needed. We was like, let's just pitch on more pig names.

[Maggie Bowles]

So let's talk now about the Zach Galifianakis Oliver dynamic. We loved.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The friendship montage was beautiful.

[Maggie Bowles]

We loved everything about it. Basically.

[Ben Smith]

You know, the friendship montage and the perfect Strangers. We were Talking about just like, oh, it would be funny if they have, like, a true bonding, like, let me teach you how to be Oliver sequence. And I think it was. Dan Fogelman was like, it kind of reminds me of A Perfect Stranger's opening credits. And he just said it. And then later we were like. When we were writing it, we were watching the opening credits and listening to the music, and then it kind of spiraled into becoming a bigger plot point. But that came out of us, like, first describing the montage, Dan identifying it as, like, it reminds me of Perfect Strangers. And then we ran with it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Have you guys ever seen Perfect Strangers?

[Ben Smith]

I had. Not before.

[Pete Swanson]

Not before this. No.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. I hadn't.

[Pete Swanson]

I still haven't.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

And all I've seen is the credits, but I feel like a big influence for writing this and. And for you and it. And, like, it helped us with the staging and the scenes. Was May December, that movie?

[Pete Swanson]

Yeah, absolutely. I think there was that, you know, that moment where they're doing the makeup in front of the mirror and sort of you're watching Natalie Portman slowly become Julie M. And there was. I think it had just come out when we were writing, and it was sort of in the. In the ether a little bit. It was fun to get to explore, like, what does make Oliver Putnam. Oliver Putnam? And I think this was sort of like a uniquely, very vulnerable moment for him because he wants this movie to work out so badly, and he cares so much about his legacy that if there was ever a moment where we were going to get some honesty from him about some of the origins of his storytelling and how he carries himself and why he presents himself to the world the way that he does. I think it was going to be with Zack, and I think Zach, really. One of my favorite moments in the episode is just the way that Zack, briefly. This small moment softens when Oliver's telling him that he just wants it to be the bestest movie ever. And Zach's like, I get it. You don't want to be forgotten. And there's, like, something in there that just felt very genuine. And it was a sweet side of Oliver to get to see.

[Ben Smith]

When I was a kid, I had

[Ryan Tillotson]

a dream that I would live a life that someday someone would want to

[Ben Smith]

turn into a film. And now all I want is it

[Ryan Tillotson]

to be the best film ever made. Wow.

[Ben Smith]

That's really brave for you to admit that, but probably not for the reasons you think. Okay, I'm sorry. I get it. You don't want to be forgotten. Oh.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, it was really sad when we see him talking to his agents about how much he hates him. I was sad. I was really sad for me. But then.

[Maggie Bowles]

But then I also love Howard's back. Howard backing him up in the most brutal way possible. I think I wrote down, like, so many of the lines, like, regal, worm, Technicolor cockroach that refuses to be killed. I was like, this is. This is fantastic.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, yeah.

[Pete Swanson]

Michael did a really great job with that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Really.

[Pete Swanson]

As he always does. There is no obstacle nor tragedy that Oliver Putnam can't bounce back from. Think about what he's been through.

[Ben Smith]

Flop after flop after flop, on stage, off.

[Pete Swanson]

You know, it is different.

[Ben Smith]

Like, for some reason, ever since the beginning, I don't know what Howard and

[Pete Swanson]

Charles relationship is fully, but I know that for some reason, every time Howard

[Ben Smith]

talks to Charles, there's, like, a little bit of anger in it. You know what I mean? There's just. That's the way I react to that particular character ever since he was in

[Pete Swanson]

my apartment in season four.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That, of course, is the voice of Michael Cyril Crichton, who plays Howard. But he's always had this sort of feeling with Mabel.

[Ben Smith]

Be like, hey, let's be girls. Like, let's.

[Pete Swanson]

We're buds.

[Ben Smith]

We're buddies.

[Pete Swanson]

And then Oliver, I think, is just

[Ben Smith]

a God to him. Oliver is a God.

[Pete Swanson]

He's everything Howard wishes and wants to be, and he idolizes him.

[Ben Smith]

So to get to defend him that way so clumsily was such a.

[Pete Swanson]

A joy.

[Ben Smith]

Flop after flop, flop after flop.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We rewatched it just because it was so great.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

Now that's psychosexual.

[Pete Swanson]

That's meaty.

[Ben Smith]

You're not the court jester. You're King Lear.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes.

[Ben Smith]

I think what Howard meant. No, no, no, no, no. You're this elegant worm, this dressed up doormat, this technicolor cockroach refuses to die.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll hear more from Michael next week. Back to Pete and Ben.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do you want to ask them for a clue?

[Ben Smith]

I'd say I feel like we get new information about one clue in this episode in particular. There's probably others that I'm forgetting about, but Kumail Rudy lights the tinsel and says, this is not tinsel because it's not flammable.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, right.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's a pretty big one.

[Maggie Bowles]

And so that's a big. That's a big piece.

[Ben Smith]

Which is already. It's in the show. But I'm just like, that. I feel like is. It's a clue.

[Maggie Bowles]

It is a clue.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It is a clue.

[Maggie Bowles]

So you're saying we already gave you a clue. Leave us alone.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah.

[Pete Swanson]

And there's the. Ben, tell me if this is redactable or not, but the photo in Vince's apartment.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, the photo is. We see the photo. The scratched out face.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, That. I mean, that obviously feels like a clue.

[Maggie Bowles]

It feels like.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And we at the ham radio, the. The lady with that voice on the.

[Ben Smith]

Right.

[Maggie Bowles]

On the ham radio.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't know what to say about any of this, but it does. That's a clue.

[Maggie Bowles]

Sounds familiar.

[Ben Smith]

Interesting. It does.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And we have an idea.

[Maggie Bowles]

We have a guess, but also, we don't know anything. And we're historically almost always wrong.

[Pete Swanson]

So we're gonna let you flap in the breeze on this one.

[Ben Smith]

Do you feel like you have a leader in the clubhouse right now?

[Maggie Bowles]

Absolutely not.

[Ryan Tillotson]

No, no, not at all.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm very bad at this sort of thing, though.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I thought after, what, episode one, I was like, it's Amy Ryan. And then she came in episode two, and I.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well,

[Pete Swanson]

I had a friend I was watching when. I remember when season one came out, I just started working on the show, season two, and I was watching it with a buddy of mine, and. And he didn't know anything about season one, and Jan gets on the elevator and he just goes, I bet she's the murderer. And I was just like, what? What are you talking? Like, why. Why are you saying that? He's like, I don't know. I just think it's her. And then it was so annoying because he was right.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's the worst.

[Pete Swanson]

It was on Pure Vibes. Some people have that talent.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's a gift.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Our season two and one co host, Elizabeth Keener, guessed poppy, like, immediately, but she had no reason. She just was like, I think it's poppy.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah. Why?

[Maggie Bowles]

And she was a bad. I just do. And then she changed her mind later. And then at the end of it, she was actually right. She called it right away, even though she had no basis for it and could not explain why she thought it.

[Pete Swanson]

You gotta trust your gut.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, sometimes. Guess so.

[Ben Smith]

Sometimes I feel like it's a weird thing. Every season when we come back, we're like, we know what happened in all previous seasons and how we set up the murder, and we know that our viewers have seen it and thought about it too. We're like, we're still trying to walk that line of it's all there should you want it. But also, we need to, like, present whoever the killer or killers are in a way that especially, like, subverts the way you think we tell our stories.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Totally. That is like, gotta be so challenging.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. It's tough. And make it funny.

[Ben Smith]

Like we can't do this because we did it last time. Or we need to do it opposite because they'll think that means that person's

[Pete Swanson]

innocent and be like, it's a game within a game.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, it is.

[Maggie Bowles]

And we love playing it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

So. Yeah.

[Ben Smith]

And that's why we love when it's just like, let's take off an eyepatch. We're like, oh, it's so uncomplicated. There's no meta like trickery.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, that's it for today. We will be back Friday for more episode three Talk, where we hear from John Hoffman. And I'm very excited. Ryan, tell them who we're going to talk to.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The Amazing Richard Kind.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's right, Vince Fish. St Guy Joe.

[Ryan Tillotson]

See you then. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Only Murders in the Building podcast. Please send your thoughts and theories to [e-mail] if you enjoy the show, please

[Maggie Bowles]

take a minute to subscribe Rate. Follow Us Leave us a review, Answer a question and it's all super, super helpful.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Only Murders in the Building podcast is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted and produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt and Only Murders in the Building theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Assistant editor is Daniel Ferreira. Production assistant is Carolyn Mendoza.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you to Ben Smith and Pete Swanson for talking to us. Thank you also to Chris Kristen Newman. Thank you to Michael Cyril Crichton and a big, big, big thanks as always to John Hoffman and the entire Hulu team. Thanks for talking to us.

[Ryan Tillotson]

See you soon. I, you know, I was on the Disney app or whatever recently and all the Hulu shows are on there. I'm very confused by the two platforms now. It doesn't make any sense. Anyway, I won't put that in the show.

[Maggie Bowles]

But why we really called you here today.

[Ben Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's what I really want to talk about while we're here.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah,