S4 E5: Adaptation (Part 1)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast”

Episode: S4 E5 - Adaptation (Part 1)

Date: September 25, 2024
Host: Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson (Straw Hut Media)
Featured Guests: J.J. Philbin (Writer), Ella Robinson Brooks (Writer), Jessica Yu (Director)

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Episode Overview

This episode pulls back the curtain on Season 4, Episode 5 of “Only Murders in the Building,” titled "Adaptation." Hosts Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson go deep with writers J.J. Philbin and Ella Robinson Brooks, and director Jessica Yu, to discuss the making of this pivotal midpoint episode, its writing process, and behind-the-scenes hilarity—especially around physical comedy, escalating murder boards, and the complex movie-within-a-show that is foundational to the current season.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Plot Recap and Major Episode Events

• Imposter Syndrome on Screen: The episode opens with Marshall P. Pope, donning a fake beard and grappling with the pressures of authenticity and creative insecurity (01:11).
• The Shed Confrontation: Bev Mellon and the trio are together in the shed; revelations about the murder and signs someone on the movie set may be involved (01:17).
• Third Murder Board: This episode marks the introduction of a third murder board, showcasing the show’s meta sense of humor about its complex web of clues (01:44).
• The Case Timeline Unravels: The team realizes that the timeline is off—testing the theory themselves, Oliver takes 38 minutes to do what should take 12, leading to new suspects (02:18).
• Footprint Clue: Discovery that the killer’s footprint in the production office matches a set shoe print, pointing suspicion at the Brother Sisters, specifically Tawny and Trina (02:42).
• Climactic Ending: A shot is fired, someone is hit—raising stakes and leading neatly into the next arc (02:57).

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2. The Writers’ Room Madness & Murder Board Obsession

• From "Murder Boards" to "Murder Walls":
  “We don’t just have murder boards. We have, like, murder walls. … I don’t think there’s enough space in the world to hold all the cards we need to make this show.” – J.J. Philbin (03:21)
• Writers describe boards dedicated entirely to timelines, clues, and even “whimsical episode ideas”—the latter, according to Ella, being “the one that we’re the least scared of, you know? Some of the other ones are scary.” (04:10)
• "Set deck" is credited with embedding the quirky details fans see on the boards during the show (04:38).

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3. Bringing Bev Mellon to Life & Molly Shannon’s Influence

• The writers discuss how Molly Shannon’s improvisational ideas and her “unhinged” comedic flair actively shaped the character of Bev Mellon. Shannon would send alternative line readings, even from the pedicure chair! (06:01)
• “Molly Shannon would … send alts for the lines… literally like a picture that was, like, taken in a pedicure chair. … She has such specific ways that she, like, speaks and intonates and stuff. She was giving us … ‘it would be even funner if we did this.’ And it always was.” – J.J. Philbin (06:01)
• On-set highlights include seeing Selena Gomez break character laughing, which is rare for her, thanks to Molly’s performance. “Selena never breaks.” (08:29)

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4. Noteworthy Behind-the-Scenes Stories

• The “shack” and Marshall’s apartment:
  • Marshall’s apartment was shot in a real apartment at the Bel Nord—the first time the show has filmed inside the building rather than on a set (07:21).
  • The real apartment was "sterile" and "fancy," unlike the show's aged, cozy sets.
• Easter Egg: Director Jessica Yu appears briefly in the scene where Charles takes pictures at the desk (07:02).

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5. Movie-Within-the-Show: Adaptation & Charlie Kaufman Nods

• The episode’s name is a direct nod to Charlie Kaufman’s “Adaptation,” with the fictional movie in the show taking on a “Kaufmanesque” absurdity (12:48).
• Writers discuss how the tone of Only Murders blurs comedy and drama, both in the podcast and this fictional adaptation.

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6. Imposter Syndrome – Recurring Theme

• Marshall’s struggle as a first-time screenwriter is directly echoed by Mabel and other main characters, who all have moments of doubt and vulnerability.
  • “We started talking about Marshall’s imposter syndrome ... It just started to feel like a really fun theme. ... We went for it with Mabel, too.” – Ella Robinson Brooks (16:55, 17:44)
• Even in the writers’ room, J.J. and Ella relate to this feeling as new contributors to a well-established show, bringing authenticity to the episode’s theme (18:40).

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7. The Physical Comedy & Creation of Jack Jonk

• A late-addition plot pivot brought the character Jack Jonk to the script, creating a new thread for Oliver’s insecurities, and the writers reminisce about the group writing session that led to Ollie’s physical comedy showcase (21:01–25:40).
• Memorable Oliver lines, including being a "Herculean figure in the theater community" and “junking” as both a noun and a verb, came from a punchy, giddy group chat (22:55–24:57).
  • “I did my first and only time peeing my pants … during a writing session. … I jonk to jonk and I. That can be used as a noun and a verb.” – Ella Robinson Brooks (24:57)

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8. The Infamous Photo Shoot & Fisher Price Directing

• The climactic “trio squared” photo shoot scene posed a complex logistical challenge—including mirrors, reflections, and multiple sets of each character.
• Jessica Yu’s Directing Tactic: She used Fisher Price toys and mirrored posts to block out the scene and avoid showing the crew in mirrors (00:02, 30:21–31:10).
  • “Sometimes I use little Fisher Price toys … and the thing I was obsessed with is like, how do we shoot them in the mirrors without seeing ourselves?” – Jessica Yu (00:02, 30:21)
• A running joke was an elaborate Cheeto dust gag to reveal footprints, cut for practicality and replaced by “tacky mats” (27:57–29:35).
• Iconic photo pose dialogue (“Back to back, wiener to wiener…”) was scripted, while the “My Dinner with Andre Plus One” improv came from lively cast contributions (26:28, 31:56).

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9. Approaching the Midpoint – Writers’ Collaboration

• Ella and J.J. explain the collaborative writing process, splitting up scenes and merging drafts, highlighting how group rewriting sessions lead to the best possible jokes and storylines (20:23, 24:57).
• The episode intentionally pivots from West Tower storylines to make the movie itself a centerpiece, driving suspect focus to the movie cast and setting up the season’s back half (11:15).

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10. Layered Hints and Thematic Connections

• The writers confirm that clues about the Brother Sisters’ potential guilt have been sprinkled throughout, building their “oddness” and raising suspicion over several episodes (33:15).
  • “Have you been dropping hints about the brothers sisters… are they potentially dangerous?” – Ryan Tillotson (33:15)
  • “There’s been a… I mean, first of all, they’re just so odd, you know, so take from that what you will.” – Ella Robinson Brooks (33:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We don’t just have murder boards. We have, like, murder walls. … There’s not enough space…” – J.J. Philbin (03:21)
• “Sometimes I use Fisher Price toys… just to figure out where people go.” – Jessica Yu (00:02, 30:21)
• "Selena never breaks. But seeing her interact with Molly (Shannon) … she was making her laugh so hard." – J.J. Philbin (08:29)
• “I did my first and only time peeing my pants in my life during a writing session. Came from... Jack Jonk.” – Ella Robinson Brooks (24:57)
• “Are you sure this plan is going to work?” – "Absolutely not, but I didn’t have a better idea in such short notice." – (33:02)
• “You share a vertebrae and a shameful secret.” – Ella Robinson Brooks; about the photo shoot sequence (26:17)
• “We were like, oh, can we do the Cheeto dust? … Under no circumstances can we throw Cheeto dust down on the floor.” – Ella (29:21)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:02 – Jessica Yu’s Fisher Price toys directing approach
• 01:11 – Episode cold open recap: Marshall P. Pope’s imposter syndrome
• 03:21 – Writers’ room “murder boards” discussion
• 06:01 – Molly Shannon’s improvisational impact as Bev Mellon
• 08:29 – Selena Gomez breaking character due to Molly Shannon
• 12:48 – The show’s metafictional “Adaptation” and Charlie Kaufman
• 16:55 – Imposter syndrome as a core episode theme
• 21:01–25:40 – Writing Jack Jonk and Oliver’s comedic moments
• 26:28–32:32 – The movie photo shoot, behind-the-scenes logistics, and improvisation
• 30:21 – Jessica Yu on using toys to block mirror scenes
• 33:15 – Hints about the Brother Sisters revealed

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Tone, Language, and On-Set Atmosphere

The episode is rich with the show’s signature wit, meta self-awareness, and high-energy creative collaboration. Cast and crew anecdotes paint the process as as much comedy as mystery, with laughter, playful improvisation, and self-deprecating honesty about creative struggles. Genuine affection and admiration between the team shine through, matching the series’ charming tone.

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For New Listeners

Whether you’re a fan tracking every clue or a first-time listener, this podcast episode gives an accessible, humorous, and insightful deep-dive into the making of “Only Murders in the Building” S4 E5. It highlights how tightly interwoven the writers’ real creative process is with the characters’ on-screen arcs, especially around imposter syndrome and the messy, joyful reality of collaborative storytelling.

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Note: This summary omits ads, show credits, and non-content chatter to focus strictly on substantive episode discussion.

Transcript

[Maggie Bowles]

Straw Hut Media.

[Jessica Yu]

The way I approach this, sometimes I use little Fisher Price toys and just to figure out where people go. And the thing I was obsessed with is like, how do we shoot them in the mirrors without seeing ourselves?

[Maggie Bowles]

Hello and welcome to the Only Murders in the Building podcast. I'm Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I'm Ryan Tillotson. We are looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the Hulu original series, Only Murders in the Building.

[Maggie Bowles]

Today on the show, we're talking all about season four, episode five. We'll hear from writers J.J. philbin and Ella Robinson Brooks and director Jessica Yu about which actor made Selena Gomez break character while shooting and how Fisher Price toys helped in the planning of a particularly challenging scene.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But first, a quick recap. And listeners, there are spoilers for episode five, so if you haven't watched it, hit pause, go watch and come right back. Episode 5 adaptation.

[Maggie Bowles]

We start with a monologue from the writer of the movie, Marshall P. Pope. He's wearing a fake beard and dealing with imposter syndrome.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Bev Mellon and the trio are in the shed. We learn that Szaz left a voicemail for Bev saying there was a problem with the movie. She thinks someone involved with the movie is the murderer. Bev says she'll save the movie while the trio find Saz's killer.

[J.J. Philbin]

So you find the killer, I save the movie. How's that for a deal, Charles?

[Maggie Bowles]

Unless unveils a third murder board to Detective Williams.

[J.J. Philbin]

I think the next time you ask

[Ryan Tillotson]

me to rush over here for a

[J.J. Philbin]

break in the case, you need to give me something better than 20 fucking thousand murder boards.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay, it's only three. And the trio gets their life rights checks. Mabel starts calling herself a podcast producer.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The trio decide to go to the production office in the penthouse to look for a new suspect. And they start asking Marshall questions. The brothers sisters enlist the trio for the photo shoot of the movie.

[Maggie Bowles]

While questioning Marshall the writer, they learned that he was doing stand up in LA on the night of the murder. And also that Charles was 12 minute murder. Timeline might not work.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oliver is feeling insecure after learning the bicep in Loretta's Instagram photo belongs to sexy actor Jack Jonk.

[Maggie Bowles]

Jack Jonk.

[Ryan Tillotson]

He decides to prove himself by testing the timeline. It takes him 38 minutes.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's a lot more than 12. How am I doing?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

It's been 38 minutes.

[J.J. Philbin]

What?

[Ryan Tillotson]

What happened to you, Oliver?

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, they realize that the footprint from the radiator at Dudenoff's apartment matches A footprint from someone on the set. That means the killer was upstairs in the production office during the photo shoot.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They lay out the Eva Longoria tacky mats. They realize that the murderer could have been two people, and that helps make the timeline work. They think it must be the brother sisters. Tawny brothers shoe matches the shoe print. And Trina brothers is super strong. She can lift Oliver up.

[Maggie Bowles]

She lifted him up. Then a shot is fired. Somebody has been shot. In this episode, Charles unveils a third murder board. And so we asked writers J.J. philbin and Ella Robinson Brooks if the multiplying boards were a reflection of reality.

[J.J. Philbin]

I'd say so. Like, in the room, we don't just have murder boards. We have, like, murder walls. We have, like, the murder table where all the note cards go. Like, they're physically. I don't think is enough space in the world to hold all the cards that we need to make this show. So it's like a little bit of everything.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That voice you just heard is Ella Robinson Brooks.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Yeah. We have murder boards that are just

[Maggie Bowles]

timelines, and this one is J.J. feldman.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

So we have murder boards that are just like, logic of like, okay, this is our story and we're sticking to it of like, what one character's, you know, journey was or the. The night of the murder is. That's. That's our most valuable murder board, I would say. We keep referring back to that and changing that.

[J.J. Philbin]

We also have one for clues. Yeah, just for clues. All that kind of stuff.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

And then, like, fun episode ideas.

[J.J. Philbin]

Woo.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

That's like our most, like, whimsical murder board. The one that we're the least scared of, you know?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Some of the other ones are scary.

[Maggie Bowles]

I also love some of the details on the murder boards that we see in episode five, specifically, like, picture to come or like, I think Charles tries to write Zach Galphin Akison fails the first time. Is that stuff that you guys write into the script or is that set decoration? How does that work?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Yeah, I think that's set deck, honestly. I mean, you know, it's. I think they. They really get it so right. Of like, exactly what we are talking about, like, at the time ends up on the murder board. But there's always, like, funny little details. I noticed those too. When I watch the episodes, I'm like, oh, man, that's so great that they realize that, like, that would be some weird thing we'd be talking about.

[J.J. Philbin]

Neighbor. Hi, I just went down to the lobby to look for you. Can you hang back and talk with me? For a second.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Come sit down with me.

[J.J. Philbin]

Let's see if we can pass the Bechdel test.

[Maggie Bowles]

We get a lot more of Bev Mellon in this episode. And I'm curious, how did you. In the room and then together, when you were working on this episode, how did you find that balance for her voice? And then how did Molly Shannon sort of, like, bring it to life?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Well, she really ran away with it. I mean, you know, we had so much fun pitching on that character. But as we. I think by the time Ella and I were working on this episode, we had been seeing dailies, and we saw that, you know, she had this kind of unhinged quality to her, which was really, you know, making us laugh. And so. And Molly also, I think she, you know, she was really interactive. Like, she had thoughts, and so that was helpful.

[J.J. Philbin]

There was one day where she. She will send, like, alts for the lines, and it was like, her. I remember she was like, oh, I'm getting a pedicure. Like, here are my notes that I wrote. And it's just like, literally, like, a picture that was, like, taken in a pedicure chair, like, of these notes. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Okay, we'll go in and add these. And it's always like, oh, my God. Because she has, like, such specific ways that she, like, speaks and intonates and stuff. So she was giving us, like, oh, I think, like, it would be even funner if we did this. And it always was. So it was really cool to, like, take Molly's notes and implement them.

[Maggie Bowles]

That is so cool.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Absolutely amazing.

[J.J. Philbin]

She's so lovely.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Did you guys. Did either of you go to set while. While they were shooting?

[J.J. Philbin]

I went to set for this episode. It was so. I mean, gosh. Well, first of all, when I walked into the shack, it was gorgeous. Like, that was the thing when we're like, oh, you know, whenever we describe something like, oh, a shack, like, we're picturing, you know, like, a defunct shack in the middle of nowhere. And you walk in, and it's the most gorgeous shack you've ever seen. And then also, just, like, getting to see the scene where Charles is going around and taking pictures. A cool little Easter egg that you might not know is that Jessica, who directed it, is in that scene. When the camera goes around, you'll see her sitting at the desk. So I was there when they filmed that. And also, oh, this is actually a really fun. Interesting fact is that Marshall's apartment is an actual apartment inside the Bel Nord, not the Arconia, like, Marshall does not live in the Arconia. That's not the lore. But we shot, for the first time ever, inside an apartment at the Bel Nord. We were there to do some exterior shots of Charles walking down the street and Oliver doing that. And they were like, why don't we kill two birds with one stone? Let us shoot in the building. So we actually. I got to go inside an apartment in Bel Nord. And it was so fancy and so gorgeous. Although our sets are more beautiful, I will say.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

I was going to say, how does it compare?

[J.J. Philbin]

It's like. I mean, ours, like, the building itself looks very new, and so our. I think part of what makes our sets look so gorgeous is that they look like these beautiful old pre war apartments with the dark wood and all that stuff. And it was a very, like, sterile white apartment, which is how they were able to make it look like some dude's, like, studio apartment in la. But it was like the most. Probably like, the most expensive set and like the nicest set of us just being, like, in this apartment building, like, just in this apartment. Six bedroom apartment, very casually.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's the first time. Season four, first time they've shot inside an apartment in the Belmore.

[J.J. Philbin]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Absolutely wild.

[J.J. Philbin]

My favorite moments from set, which was watching Molly and Celina do the scene by the elevators where Mabel is pitching her podcast ideas. It was just so lovely to be there because Molly is so funny. And Selena was, like, breaking in the scene because she was making her laugh so hard. And Selena never breaks. That's the thing you see on set is Steve and Marty will be, like, literally yucking it up. And she's just like, come on, come on, come on. But seeing her interact with Molly was just such a wonderful kind of flavor and color on her. And now that we've kind of exonerated Bev Melon, I want more of her because I love them together. So that's just something that, like, I'm always pushing for more Bev Melon and Mabel together. And that was probably my favorite thing from set.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, I love it.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's a great. That's great.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

The first one is about people. Tall people, short people, all different sized people.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hmm.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

And there's another one about buttons being pushed because of trauma.

[J.J. Philbin]

Ooh, I like that.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

You know what? Forget it. None of these are really anything.

[J.J. Philbin]

Mabel, do you want the advice of a senior vp? These ideas are fantastic. They're relatable. I mean, come on. Who hasn't dealt with people and buttons?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

That scene in the shed was just, you know, so delightful, and we had. Who was in the shed was something that the writers talked about. You know, that shed at the end of Concussions that we come up on the episode with her in there. That was, like, a very, very big and long and thoughtful discussion for, like,

[J.J. Philbin]

weeks of who was in the shed at the end of four weeks, maybe not eight weeks, but for, like, quite a few weeks, we were like. Because it just. As we broke out the story, it was like, who's the most beneficial, incredible, amazing person that we could see in the shed that's gonna give you the most bang for your buck? And it really is Molly, in the end, is the person literally who gives you the most bang for your buck in the end. We tried, like, we tried it all, but Molly was the best.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Other people tried to get in on that shed. No, we stuck. We were like, it's Bev Melon.

[J.J. Philbin]

Bev Melon only.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Oh, my God, it's you.

[J.J. Philbin]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I've just been a little on edge. I really do not like being this

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

far east of Brentwood. Do you mind putting the gun down?

[J.J. Philbin]

Oh, this? It's not loaded.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I had no idea. I mean, I. Did you have a board just for the shed?

[J.J. Philbin]

Probably at one point we should have.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Yeah, several boards.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

I mean, this was the episode where we were kind of transitioning the story towards the movie because we had been really spending a lot of time in the west tower, and we, you know, the movie had been playing as sort of background. So there, I guess, the debate was sort of about do we want to stay in the west tower and resolve more of those questions because we knew that there was more story to come there, or do we want to go to this movie that we set up in episode one, and then we do spend time with the actors, but, like, we hadn't been really spending a lot of time with the people on the movie and investigating them as suspects. And so I think that was, like, what the shed debate was really about.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Got it, got it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Got it. They're making your movie.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

You're a real writer now.

[Maggie Bowles]

You're convinced the voice in your head,

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

the one that says you're a fraud,

[Maggie Bowles]

is finally gonna go away.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Except it doesn't, and you start to

[Maggie Bowles]

wonder if it ever will.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We learn that the writer, Marshall P. Pope, is a huge Charlie Kaufman fan. I mean, the name of the episode is Adaptation. I'm really curious to know, you know, Charlie Kaufman makes some strange movies. Adaptation Being John Malkovich, Etern Sunshine. What Is this movie, like, how much of the movie do you know exists? Like, how Kaufman esque is it of

[J.J. Philbin]

the only Murders movie itself? Yeah, I feel like just with the vibe of the show, it probably will be very Kaufman esque. I feel like it exists in that world. But that was honestly something as we were working on this season. I was like, oh, we think of the show as a comedy, and we think of the show as a comedy and a podcast as a comedy. All the things are happening. Like, the actual movie based on the podcast itself would be a drama, but, like, no, that's not right. So, like, trying to figure out kind of how to saddle the tone. And I think that having, like, crazy directors and a really kind of interesting mix of people for a cast, like, helps make you realize that, oh, this movie's going to be just as crazy as the podcast. But I think, like, we had to be like, oh, yeah, we have to make this crazy, because it is crazy to just make, like, a comedy movie about a murder podcast.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. And I think we also get like, a little glimpse into maybe, like, the style of script writing from. I think it's like Oliver flitted around like a masculine Tinkerbell or something, and then Charles's brain thumped something like that. Like, is this a good script, do you think? Or is this.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Well, that was something we talked about a. Because, you know, we're writers and we wanted to kind of poke fun at writers and sort of how tortured the process can be. And, you know, Marshall seemed like someone who just wanted this so, so, so badly. And this is his big shot. But, you know, now it's real and he's on set and he's trying to churn out these pages. And, like, he's not very experienced. And so, yeah, I mean, we were kind of like, he's probably panicking and writing some stuff that isn't, you know, that great. So, yeah, I mean, these were his rewrites, I think, that he was working on. So we were really trying to thread a lot in there. Beth Mellon kind of coming down on him, like, come on, you know, churn out some great scenes. And so he's a little bit of loose ends in this episode.

[Maggie Bowles]

Is there someone in the writers room who can quote both David Foster Wallace and Ace Ventura? Is that everybody or.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

That's a good question.

[J.J. Philbin]

I feel like all together, we come together to make a person like that. We do have a couple of writers on our show who are so specific, like Madeline George, who wrote episode 404. She's the type of person. I feel like if you really pressed her on it, she could do both because she's that much of a genius and, like, that smart. But it definitely is like, Marshall is the most annoying version of a writer, and we don't have any annoying people in our room, so for that reason, we're good.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, you mentioned he's a little insecure, and I feel like imposter syndrome is a big theme of this episode.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, we've got both Mabel and Marshall kind of dealing with it, I think, actually. Yeah.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

I mean, we sort of. I think it's true, you know, for all of them in a lot of ways. I mean, Charles was feeling like he is an imposter as an investigator when his theory of the how, which he was really proud of, he felt like, this is the thing that I have that's working. And then that got blown up. Picture this. Our killer takes his place, or her

[J.J. Philbin]

place, and waits for the target to come into view.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Minute one, our killer takes a shot.

[J.J. Philbin]

Can I just commit to male pronouns? It'll be easier.

[Maggie Bowles]

Anyway.

[Jessica Yu]

Doing the James Bondian sequence with Steve was, like, a high point of my life, you know, I mean, that was then, of course, I'm like, why isn't he playing James Bond in some sort of parallel universe? That was a total pleasure.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That was just a quick. Aside from director Jessica Yu.

[Maggie Bowles]

It was definitely a very stylish theory, even though it didn't quite hold up to scrutiny back to JJ and Ella.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

All the characters in this are feeling kind of insecure and wondering if they can really do the same thing. The things that they, you know, say out loud that they can do. So it felt, you know, we started talking about Marshall's imposter syndrome, that this was his first job, that most writers feel that way early in their career, but oftentimes all the way through. And it just started to feel like a really fun theme. And we kind of went for it with Mabel, too, that she got this paycheck, and she's not used to getting, like, validated in that way. And so she, too, went kind of down a little bit of a spiral of, like, do I really, you know, Do I really know what I'm doing here? And that was sort of part of her story with Beth Mellon when they're trying to. When Bev is trying to get her

[Ryan Tillotson]

to, like, go to more ideas.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Yeah, I don't know if I have any. So it was kind of neat the way that that idea was sort of, like, threaded through for all, and, you know, it was True in the Oliver story, too, is he's, like, spiraling around Jack Jonk. We, the writers, really fell in love with Jack Jonk. I can't tell you. That was really. We really laughed. But he was feeling that way, too, in his story with Loretta. So it felt like if we're doing a story that we're really focusing on the writer and his really wanting to feel, like, professional when inside he feels like an amateur, that that could be something really interesting to explore for all of our characters.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Amateurs flailing their way to success, I

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

think is how exactly.

[J.J. Philbin]

I think even when it came to writing it, it was kind of not an easy episode to write. But even as I was writing it, I was feeling imposter syndrome, because this is my first season on this incredible show with comedy legends, and I'm like, can I write for Steve Martin? I was freaking out. I was honestly scared. And then we know when JJ and I first came together with our drafts for the episode, she was like, okay, this is my draft. Don't judge it too hard. And I was like, this is my draft. Don't touch it too hard. Oh, my God. We're all insecure. Everybody feels this way. And it just was so validating in writing the episode because, like, even as I'm writing this, I feel like Marshall. So that was, like, such a. It was, like, a really good place to be able to access when writing, you know, something that's so totally revolves around it. Yeah.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

That feeling of staring at the blank page and going, I. I don't know how to do this. I never did. This is going to be the moment where everybody finds out, I don't know how to do this. Like, you know, I think it's such a universal thing, so that I felt like, you know, strange, like, really kind of worked for all of the little stories that we were trying to tell for all the characters.

[Maggie Bowles]

After the break, how Jack Jonk brought out a sad but hilarious side to Oliver Putnam and the crazy photo shoot with the trio Squared. Foreign.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Welcome back. This is our first time having Ella Robinson Brooks and JJ Philbin on the podcast. JJ joined last season season three, and Ella joined in season four. And we always find it interesting to ask about the writer's collaborative process, especially when the two writers are paired together for an episode for the first time.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Well, I would say initially we, you know, we collaborated with the whole room and just talking about what, you know, this was the midpoint of the season, episode five, what we. What our goals were for the story, and then Ella and I, along with the rest of the writers, talked through so many variations of this story, so many different versions exist, that we actually went off and wrote, didn't we?

[Ryan Tillotson]

You guys each wrote your own draft and then kind of merged them together. Is that what I understand?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

We split up scenes.

[J.J. Philbin]

Yeah. But in the ether is a completely different version of this episode that once we wrote it, we were kind of like, this is good. But it's missing that Jenny sais quoi. And the Jenny sais quoi was Martin Short riding down a stair rail and hitting himself at the bottom of the rail. That was what it was missing. And so once we went back and added that the Oliver elements, that's when, like, oh, now it makes sense. Like, now it's really like singing,

[Maggie Bowles]

How am I doing?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

It's been 38 minutes.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What? What happened to you, Oliver?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Well, and that's when we kind of went back in and built off the story in 404, where Oliver is feeling insecure around the biceps in Loretta's Instagram pictures. And, you know, thought, well, what if he is able to identify who that person is? And then it's like his worst nightmare of, like, the. This, like, hot muscle Man. That could mean that he could kind of jump into this story and do that. That kind of the B side of that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, he's just as tough as junk. And he can do it. You know, he can sleep with all seven dwarves or what?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, he can junk someone's junk. All junk long or whatever.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oliver doing the journey from Dudenoff's apartment is so full of physical comedy. It was so, so funny. Including that banister slide. I loved it. But also throughout the episode, we get so many good lines from Oliver in this episode. Like, he's, like, bragging about how many times he's been asked to be a pallbearer.

[J.J. Philbin]

It's funny because you don't strike me as someone who would, like, care for their body. Excuse me, I need to go find someone.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Actually, I know as a bit of a Herculean figure in the theater community, usually pick second for softball right after the lesbian stage manager. And I want to brag, but I've been asked to be a Paul Bear many times.

[Maggie Bowles]

Or the. His, like, his bout with steroids. The 24 hour kick line marathon.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You got him well memorized.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's like there are so many of them. Are those ideas that came up in the room, like, different things that maybe Oliver would say? Or is that something that you guys kind of worked on in your Script?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Well, because that idea came late after Ella and I had written the first draft. At that point, we're kind of pressed for time. And so we're going to make this pretty big change to kind of take out the Oliver story that had existed in that episode and give him a story about junk that kind of gets him to this crazy, like, physical comedy where he tries to do the crime. And so at that point, we were in a group rewrite and we were all in our own offices writing, like, on that, like, collaborate thing. And there was like, five of us, and we were in our offices and texting these lines into the group chat. And we were all hearing each other's, like, hysterical laughter from our, like, down the hall. And I did my first and only time peeing my pants in my life during a writing session. Came from. It was Ben Smith's line, and it was like, oh, God, I'm gonna mangle it. But it's like, I jonk to jonk and I. That can be used as a noun and a verb. That. That whole. So you know what I'm talking about, right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, you've used jonk as both a noun and a verb in the span of 10 seconds.

[J.J. Philbin]

Well, it can be both.

[Jessica Yu]

The jonk jaunked my jaunt till I

[J.J. Philbin]

jaunt is a valid sentence.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, he and I don't sound that different. Both body guys, you know, love protein. In fact, a lot of people don't know this, but I myself went through a steroids phase. Prednisone for my sinus infections.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

I was like, oh, my God, I think Jack Jonk is giving me life. Like, because it was at that point we'd written many versions of the script and we're like, kind of, like, tired, but we were high on life, thanks to Jack Jock. So that was just like a fun, giddy group rewrite where we kind of added that storyline in and had so much fun.

[J.J. Philbin]

Sometimes we'll do it like that, or sometimes we'll, like, sit in a room together and one person will, like, drive and we'll just look at a big screen together. But those are my favorite parts of writing because everybody gets, like, a little bit punch happy because you really are just trying. You're, like, making each other laugh until you find the best joke. So that's when, like, the room gets, like, a little crazy and people are just saying, like, the most wild stuff. And that's how you get a 20, 24 hour kick line to end. Ricketts, like, just because you're just saying. Absolutely anything crazy.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So fun.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm assuming you were also on set for the photo shoot scenes, because there are some very funny moments. Ryan's favorite moment, probably from the season so far.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Try one back to back. You share a vertebrae and a shameful secret.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Shameful secret.

[Maggie Bowles]

Okay,

[Ryan Tillotson]

no, turn around.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Wiener to wiener. Stubbins, show them penis.

[Maggie Bowles]

Back to back.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Wiener to wiener.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Is that what I'm talking about?

[J.J. Philbin]

That was. Okay, so this is devastating to me personally, but that was, like, the day I got there on, like, a Monday, and they shot that on the Friday but before. So I didn't get to go to the photo shoot. So I'm sad forever. But that was like. We always knew there was going to be a photo shoot and that there were going to be mirrors, reflections, all of that happening. And, like, where it landed in our season, like, it was kind of. Once we kind of built the story out, it was evident that it had to go in five. But, like, literally, kind of like week one of the room, John's like, I want to go to this.

[Maggie Bowles]

This place.

[J.J. Philbin]

It's called One Vanderbilt or Vanderbilt one. We still don't know to this day.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

We call it both.

[J.J. Philbin]

We call it both. There's mirrors on the floor and the ceiling and all this stuff, which is really cool. So we're like, okay, we have to go to this place. We have to go to this place. And then finally they were like, oh, if you go there, it's going to be impossible to shoot because there's mirrors on the floor and the ceiling. So we did end up doing what we did in the episode where it's like, the monitors and there's stuff going on, but the evolution of, like, that. Of, like, okay, we're going to have to go to the place. We know what it's going to be. And then the, like, the actual, like, logistics of shooting was like, we're going to do the same thing but in a different place. And it still looks amazing.

[Maggie Bowles]

So great, but. And it's also still really challenging, right?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Yeah, I think it was like that. I mean, I wasn't there, but, you know, I think it was really challenging because I think they only had that space for one day. And it's quite an involved sequence. Totally. And we, back in the writer's room kept getting like, okay, you guys gotta keep cutting, cut, cut. And we're like, we've kind of cut everything that there is to cut without, like, losing this whole thing. But we. We did change, really, you know, on the fly. We were trying To. In lieu of cutting, we were trying to simplify. And so that gag that is about the footprints on the Sticky Mads, we had written something that we were like, oh, this is so fun. Which was like, where they spilled a giant tub of Cheeto dust was what Eva Longoria was doing in that scene. And then watching as people were taking steps in that Cheeto dust and seeing what the footprints were or the shoe prints were. And John was like, yay. I love that. And then he was like, under no circumstances can we throw Cheeto dust down on the floor, have people walk through it, clean it up.

[Maggie Bowles]

Do.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

We were like, yeah, you know what? You're right. We couldn't have come up with something more annoying or hard to shoot than that. So that was something that we. Impossible.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The tacky mat switch was smart.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Yeah. I mean, did the same thing. We were like, but don't you think Cheeto does. Everyone was like, put it on the mat. We were like, understood. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What are we making? Dune.

[Maggie Bowles]

JJ and Ella were not able to be on set for the photo shoot scene, but director Jessica Yu was so much going on.

[Jessica Yu]

So I was, you know, having these sort of, like, daymares of trying to keep everybody straight with, you know, we've got triple gangers. I don't know if that's a word, but, you know, we had three of each of our.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Our.

[Jessica Yu]

You know, of the trio. The triple trio. And then trying to figure out where everybody was and. And to get these angles. Plus, we have mirrors. It's like, okay, thanks, John. We're gonna have mirrors too, you know?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Jessica Yu]

So the way I approached it is sometimes I use little Fisher Price toys and just to figure out where people go. And the thing I was obsessed with is, like, how do we shoot them in the mirrors without seeing ourselves? And so I. I got these little mirrored posts. I'll send you guys a picture because

[Ryan Tillotson]

I would love to see this.

[Maggie Bowles]

I got.

[Jessica Yu]

I got so into it. And then I. I had my Fisher Price toys, and, like, you know, there's, like, three Ernie's and three Berts and, like, three of the. Three of the.

[Ryan Tillotson]

The.

[Jessica Yu]

You know, the blonde lady with the. You know, who always has the mascara.

[Ryan Tillotson]

This is incredible. Yeah.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

And then.

[Jessica Yu]

So in that way, we kind of could. It was really helpful to see, like, where the camera needed to be. And so I brought it on set. And then as we move things around, then I could just say, hey, next, we're moving on to this. And after a while, like, in the beginning, everyone would look. And then after a While they're just like, okay, it's fine.

[Maggie Bowles]

So just got used to it.

[Jessica Yu]

You just got used to it. But, you know, one thing that helps is on this show, I'm sure you guys hear this all the time, but, like, everyone wants to be on set. Everybody loves being on the show.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Jessica Yu]

And. And it's like, Paul read. When I was like, okay, Paul, you're done. And he's like, no, I'm not done. Can I do anything stick? This just doesn't happen. Right. Usually someone's like, thank God, finally they shot me out so I can leave. And so even when it's a little chaotic and loud, it's just a delight. Like, it's. This just does not happen very often.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Was the stuff in the photo shoot, when they're all kind of crammed in there, Is any of that improvised? Is that all scripted? I mean, I laughed a lot about Back to Back. Wiener to Wiener. So I'm just curious, like, if. If that was all written or what's good.

[Jessica Yu]

That was scripted. But the part when they're all, like. When they're being prompted to do, you know My Dinner with Andre plus one?

[J.J. Philbin]

That.

[Jessica Yu]

That little section there, that was like a. It was. That was like a game of charades where people were just kind of throwing things in, and I love that.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Or famous trios.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Ron, Harry and Hermione.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right?

[J.J. Philbin]

Yeah.

[Jessica Yu]

I love seeing the ones where, you know, of course, Charles and Oliver have no idea who they are. And Maple's just like, are you kidding me? Wizards or whatever.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't think My Dinner with Andre Plus One was in the final cut. Was it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I don't remember. Oh, it wasn't.

[Jessica Yu]

That was my favorite.

[Maggie Bowles]

But it's okay. I know. It's very funny. That's why I was like, how did they.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's not in my notes.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's not in my notes either, so. Although it's possible. We'll fact check that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll fact check it.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Charlie's Angels. Ron, Harry, Hermione.

[Maggie Bowles]

Harry Potter.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Oh, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Godfather 1, 2, 3.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Are you sure this plan is going to work?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Absolutely not. But I didn't have a better idea in such short notice. Let's take five.

[Maggie Bowles]

Charles, go to makeup.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

Tell them we need you to look a little less. They'll know what that means.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Here's J.J. have you been dropping hints throughout this so far? You know, this is episode five. Have you been dropping hints about the brothers sisters or, you know, are they potentially dangerous?

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

I. I think so. I mean, I think there's been a. I mean, first of all, they're just so odd, you know, so take from that what you will. And you know, I noticed in in four the way that they were just that scene with Howard during the audition, I feel like they dropped a few things just about shooting and you know how important their art is. I don't want to give anything away for the episode that's coming. But yeah, I mean, we had our conversations about them all the way through and that was sort of. It was fun to build to that over the course of the episode episode and have drop little clues over the course of this one. But then sort of in Act 3, it all comes together. That was the goal.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back in a few days with the amazing Molly shannon. Molly Shannon/ Michael Serial Crichton who plays Howard, and of course, John Hoffman.

[Maggie Bowles]

Please continue to send us your thoughts and theories to only murdersrawhutmedia.com. you can send it in text or you can send us a voice memo and we might play it on the show.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Take a minute to subscribe, rate the show, follow us and leave us a review. If you enjoy the show, which I hope you do.

[Maggie Bowles]

Only Murders in the Building podcast is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted and produced by Ryan Tildson and Maggie Bowles. Our associate producer is Stephen Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt, and only Murders in the Building theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Assistant editor is Daniel Ferreira and production assistant is Caroline Mendoza.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you so much to J.J. philbin and Ella Robinson Brooks and Jessica Yu for talking with us this week.

[Maggie Bowles]

And big, big thanks to, as always, to John Hoffman and the entire Hulu team, Ben Smith. Right. Ben told us about the writer that actually does drink a gallon of water a day.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh my God.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

The size of that water bottle, it's really aggressive.

[J.J. Philbin]

It's enormous. And it's always on the table blocking everyone's line of sight. Like it's insane.

[Ella Robinson Brooks]

It's bigger than most humans in the room. Like, it's like our biggest writers at Water Bottle. Like, the heftiest writer we have is that bottle.