S4 E5: Adaptation (Part 2)

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S4 E5: Adaptation (Part 2)

Released: September 27, 2024
Host: Maggie Bowles, Ryan Tillotson (Straw Hut Media)
Featured Guests: Molly Shannon (Bev Mellon), John Hoffman (Showrunner/Co-Creator), Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Season 4, Episode 5 ("Adaptation") of Only Murders in the Building. Hosted by Maggie Bowles and Ryan Tillotson, it features in-depth interviews with Molly Shannon (Bev Mellon), showrunner John Hoffman, and Michael Cyril Creighton (Howard). The discussion covers the creative process, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the playful energy of the set, and recurring themes like doubles, imposters, and identity. Notable moments include talk of iconic scenes, Paul Rudd’s comedic genius, and fan theories from Reddit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Molly Shannon on Bev Mellon and Joining the Cast

[01:25 – 06:54]

• Bev Mellon Character:
  • Bev Mellon is described as a “Hollywood producer who wears pink suits—she’s all business, trying to get the life rights to make a movie about the trio’s podcast.” (Molly Shannon, [01:29])
  • Shannon based Bev on the “good and lame” versions of hustlers she’s met in Hollywood but says Bev is “a very hard worker… She gets the job done.” (Shannon, [01:59])
• Joining OMITB:
  • Shannon reveals her long friendship with showrunner John Hoffman, dating back about 30 years. "We met years ago when I was doing my stage show in LA." (Shannon, [02:48])
  • She highlights the joyful atmosphere on set: "It really is like a party off camera, too. It feels like you're at a really fun party..." (Shannon, [03:23])
  • John Hoffman’s organizational skills are praised: "He is that involved in everyone… makes them feel as if that is his only thing." (Shannon, [04:28])

2. The Art of ‘Making It Wild’: Comedy, Script, and Improvisation

[06:55 – 09:17]

• Shannon values both preparation and spontaneity on set, crediting her SNL background:
  • “It’s so nice if you can kind of make it wild while the cameras are rolling. So that's what I kind of call make it wild.” (Shannon, [07:10])
  • Respect for collaboration: “It's a tennis match. You work together. If people are wild with me, I just like being kind of wild.” (Shannon, [07:51])
• Real-Life ‘Bev Mellon’ parallels:
  • Shannon recounts a behind-the-scenes incident where she acted “like a producer” in real life, providing advice, which led Hoffman to joke, “See, I really am Bev Mellon in real life.” (Shannon, [08:25])

3. Easter Eggs and On-Set Fun

[09:49 – 13:14]

• Giant Water Bottle Prop: The massive water bottle Bev carries is directly inspired by writer Ben Smith’s real-life jug in the writers’ room.
  • "Ben Smith has the largest water jug anyone has ever seen. It’s daunting to everyone." (John Hoffman, [10:10])
  • A humorous (cut) bit involved Oliver trying—and failing—to lift the heavy bottle. (Hoffman, [11:20])
• Theming and Doubles:
  • The season’s emphasis on doubles, doppelgängers, and reflection is intentional—mirroring identity and self-perception.
    • “So much of this season…is set up right in that opening podcasting narration of Charles…is that the me I used to be or the me I want to be remembered like?” (Hoffman, [12:50])
  • Recurring motif: twins, mirror images, and doubles appearing across all seasons (e.g., Charles and Saz, Alice’s mirror apartment, Cinda’s minions). (Hoffman, [17:00])

4. Imposter Syndrome & Identity

[15:09 – 28:39]

• The “movie within the show” theme and recurring impostor syndrome:
  • “You’re convinced the voice in your head, the one that says you’re a fraud, is finally gonna go away. Except it doesn’t.” (Michael Cyril Creighton, [15:09])
  • Hoffman reflects personally: “I really genuinely think… I don’t even think I have any talent this way…I have nothing to start with." (Hoffman, [15:29])
• Mabel’s big moment—claiming her identity as a podcast producer.
  • “I’m a podcast producer. Why is that so scary to say out loud?” (Selena Gomez as Mabel, [24:45])
  • Hoffman and guests discuss the universal experience of owning one’s professional identity.

5. Behind-the-Scenes: Photography Doppelgängers & “Wiener to Wiener”

[29:10 – 33:59]

• Filming the chaotic photo shoot with doubles and lookalikes:
  • Hoffman aimed for maximal confusion: “For me, there were never enough [doubles]…I genuinely wanted it to be like, just confuse, confuse, confuse as much as possible.” (Hoffman, [29:27])
  • Downtown NYC shoot; many friends and family on set created a festive, crowded atmosphere. (Hoffman, [30:24])
• Paul Rudd’s improvisational magic (“Wiener to Wiener” moment):
  • “The moment when he comes over and goes, 'wiener to wiener'... That was not planned… Paul Rudd’s commitment… I swear, there was a moment we were going to make out...” (Hoffman, [32:09])
  • Marty Short’s reaction and repeated takes made it a set highlight.
  • “She is, as an actress…found that character in that way and just the seriousness in her lower register… wiener to wiener was just a perfect read.” (Hoffman, [33:40])

6. Howard’s Ever-Evolving Roles

[21:23 – 24:14]

• Michael Cyril Creighton discusses Howard’s “shameless” tendency to insert himself into every opportunity:
  • “He insinuates himself into every possible situation he can get into…become the most important person in the room.” (Hoffman, [21:48])
  • “What I love about him is that he is constantly trying to figure out what he’s good at… he is shameless when it comes to inserting himself.” (Creighton, [22:41])
• Comic set additions, like Howard rapidly spouting film terminology (“Comptex, gobo, tweeny…”) were late adds that emphasized Howard’s playful, ever-changing persona. (Creighton, [23:22])

7. Fan Reactions & Theories (Reddit Roundup)

[36:17 – 41:00]

• Fan emails and Reddit theories highlight ongoing speculation:
  • The “doubles” theme led to speculation about mistaken identity in the cliffhanger.
  • Marshall P. Pope possibly has impostor syndrome/fraudulent background.
  • Some fans suspect three killers, drawing inspiration from mirror and double/triple motifs.
  • Fun theories about family relationships, Loretta’s motivations, and even a “stunt pig.”
  • Engagement with clues, props, and recurring motifs remains high.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Showrunner John Hoffman's Leadership:

  • "[John] makes them feel as if that is his only thing that he has to deal with... That's why the show is so good. It starts at the top."
    — Molly Shannon ([04:28])

• On Comedy & Improvisation:

  • “If you can be a little wild, do it. The cameras are running. Let’s fucking do it. Let’s make it wild.”
    — Molly Shannon ([07:10])

• On Doubles & Reflection:

  • “So much of this season is set up…film gives you an opportunity to look at, is that the me I used to be or the me I want to be remembered like?”
    — John Hoffman ([12:50])

• On the Photo Shoot Chaos:

  • “For me, there were never enough [doubles]…I genuinely wanted it to be…confuse, confuse, confuse as much as possible.”
    — John Hoffman ([29:27])

• The Iconic “Wiener to Wiener” Moment:

  • “That was not planned... Paul Rudd’s commitment… I swear, there was a moment we were going to make out.”
    — John Hoffman ([32:09])
  • (Maggie and Ryan):
    • "In my notes, all I wrote was both of us wrote 'Wiener to Wiener'."
      — [33:19]

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Fan Engagement and Theories

[36:17 – 41:00]

• Listeners submit theories about themes of doubles, mistaken identity, and possible triple killers.
• Popular speculation around Marshall P. Pope’s true authorship and possible criminality.
• Noted prop details, e.g., sweater matches and water bottles, inspire deeper clues.
• Encouragement to participate in the escape room giveaway and join discussions on Reddit.

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:25 – Molly Shannon discusses Bev Mellon
• 02:48 – Friendship and reunions on the OMITB set
• 04:28 – John Hoffman’s leadership lauded
• 07:10 – Shannon’s improvisational philosophy (“make it wild”)
• 10:10 – John Hoffman on the giant water bottle Easter egg
• 12:50 – Themes of doubles and reflections in the series
• 15:09 – Michael (as Howard) on impostor syndrome
• 21:23 – Evolution of Howard's set roles
• 24:45 – Mabel’s breakthrough (“I’m a podcast producer”)
• 29:27 – Filming the “chaotic” photo shoot scene
• 32:09 – The “Wiener to Wiener” on-set moment with Paul Rudd
• 36:17 – Reddit theories discussed by Hannah

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Summary

This episode of the Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast gives fans a revealing and humor-filled look behind episode five’s “Adaptation.” The cast and crew share anecdotes about camaraderie and creative flexibility on set, the thoughtful crafting of characters and themes, and the ever-present motif of identity, mirrors, and impostor syndrome. Crowd-favorite moments—like the “wiener to wiener” exchange—are explained with warmth and glee, bolstering the show’s blend of comedy and mystery. Finally, passionate fan engagement and wild theories underscore the show’s interactive and playful spirit.

Transcript

[Producer/Host Intro]

Straw Hut Media.

[Molly Shannon]

I always want to be respectful to my fellow performers. It's a tennis match. You work together. But. And I like if people are wild with me, I just like being kind of wild. So, yes, that does come from the stage show Saturday Night Live.

[Maggie Bowles]

Welcome back to the Only Murders in the Building podcast. I am Maggie Bowles.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

We are looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the Hulu original series, Only Murders in the Building.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Today on the show, we are continuing our conversation all about season four, episode five, adaptation. If you haven't seen episode five or if you haven't listened to part one of this week's podcast, go do both of those things. First, because today we're talking to the

[Maggie Bowles]

amazing Molly Shannon, iconic comedy legend Molly Shannon, who plays, of course, Bev Mellon.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll catch up with showrunner co creator John Hoffman, and we'll hear from Michael Cyril Crichton, who plays Howard.

[Maggie Bowles]

Highlights from today's episode. Ryan, what do listeners have to look forward to?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Maybe a little bit about what Molly Shannon has in common with Bev Mellon.

[Maggie Bowles]

How about Howard's new job as on set documentarian and talent liaison?

[Ryan Tillotson]

What about Paul Rudd's interpretation of Wiener to Wiener?

[Maggie Bowles]

I know how much you liked Wiener to Wiener.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes. Let's start off with Molly Shannon.

[Maggie Bowles]

So can you tell us a little bit about who Bev Mellon is?

[Molly Shannon]

Well, Bev Mellon is a Hollywood producer who wears pink suits and she's all business and she's trying to get the rights to their life rights so that she can make a movie about the only murders podcast she wants to turn into a movie. And she's all business.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She is. She is a boss lady. Yeah, they're making things happen. Girl boss. I mean, do you. Do you know a Bev Mellon type or have you worked with a Bev Melon?

[Molly Shannon]

I do, yes. I definitely have. Yes. I've worked with, like, the good version of Bed Mellon, like a real hustler and, like, can do attitude, and then the, like, the lame versions too, like the ones that don't do that much work and. But I consider Bev Melon a very hard worker. She likes. She gets the job done.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, yeah, she just shows up.

[Molly Shannon]

Yeah, she shows up, but it's not based on anybody in particular. It's just a general, general idea and.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, I get it. Yeah. No, Bev is extremely hard worker. Okay, well, we have an idea of how this happened, but we'd love to know how you got involved in the show.

[Molly Shannon]

I'm not sure if you know, but John Hoffman, the creator, brilliant showrunner, and I have been friends for. I mean, well, I have to ask John, but I think it's maybe like 30 years or something.

[Maggie Bowles]

Wow.

[Molly Shannon]

We met years ago when I was doing my stage show in la. It was called the Rob and Molly Show. And John came to my show and then I came to his show. We just became friends and started hanging out and going out for dinner. And I was such a fan of his work and he was a fan of mine, and we've just been friends ever since.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Oh, yeah. I love it.

[Molly Shannon]

I think it was JJ and John together that were like, molly would be good as Bev Mellon. J.J. philbin, my good friend in LA. She and I work together on Saturday Night Live, and she's an amazing producer writer on the show. So JJ and I worked together years ago at snl. We wrote together. So it was so great to be reunited with JJ. But JJ's the one who initially told me. She goes, everybody's so happy on the set. It's like the happiest set. And I was like, J.J. is right. Everybody is just so excited to be there. And then it really is like a party off camera, too. It feels like you're at, like, a really fun party with, like, Steve and Eugene and everybody just talking. And Marty and Steve order tuna fish sandwiches and potato chips for lunch. And I was like, I want tuna fish. And then we all talk and laugh and tell stories, and then, oh, my God, there's Meryl Streep and there's Selena and Ellie and. Yeah, it was just so great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And Steve's doing magic, I hear, and everyone's learning how to play. Oh, hell. Did you play any?

[Molly Shannon]

I didn't. I didn't see him do magic. But Steve and I would just talk and, you know, have so much fun. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What would you say is your maybe it's impossible question? Your biggest takeaway from the whole. The whole production?

[Molly Shannon]

One thing I was gonna say was, this is what I'll say about John Hoffman. John Hoffman was like, molly, do you wanna do the show? And I was like, yes. And then I was like, but the only thing is, is my son's on spring break during this time when we're shooting. He was like, okay, what are the dates? And I was like, Cause I really do need to be off during that time. And he's like, okay. So organized. Okay, okay, no problem, Mol. We'll have you off during that period. And I'm thinking, John does this for probably, like, 500 people. Like, he is that involved in everyone. We gotta cut that line, huh? Okay. And that scene, okay, that lamp, that set, what does the edit have to be in, huh? Talking to this executive, 20th century. He's doing that to everyone and makes them feel so. As if that is his only thing that he has to deal with. But that's why the show is so good. That's why it's brilliant. That's why it's on. It starts at the top. He does that for everyone. That. Does that make sense? And that really does not happen in a lot of places. They might push that job off to someone else, and it could be mishandled. But John's doing all that, crossing his T's, dotting his eyes, thinking of these character arcs, writing these beautiful parts for women, men. You know what I mean? That's John Hoffman.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's so impressive. And every time we talk to him, just his knowledge of the details of every episode, of every scene is just like, how is he keeping it all in his brain? I just don't understand. It's wild.

[Molly Shannon]

It's wild, right? Because you have to have the murder plot, the dramatic part, and then adding funny stuff on top of that. But you have to make sure the dramatic storyline plays and the mystery part, those are different types of writing. And then comedy jokes, jokes that come from character, that's separate. Right. But you have to have the emotional baseline first. And the mystery component of story. That's hard to think through a whole season, you know, I don't know. That's really hard.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's impressive. I'm constantly impressed by it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Same, same. So you would say John maybe is your biggest takeaway.

[Molly Shannon]

Yes, John is our biggest takeaway. Back to the question. Yes, but no. It was an absolute dream. It was such a fun job. And we just had the premiere, and we had so much fun at the premiere, and it was so great. Yes.

[Producer/Host Intro]

Yeah.

[Molly Shannon]

So great.

[Maggie Bowles]

We know from all of the years of talking about this show with all of the creators that for the most part, this show is very, very tightly scripted and very well scripted. But we also know that Molly Shannon shared notes on scripts with Ella and jj. We know that from last week.

[Molly Shannon]

I'll have a general idea of what I want to do, but I want to be really loose and spontaneous and wild in the moment. Like, make it kind of wild. That's what I would do. And you don't always have the freedom to do that because, you know, I always want to be respectful of everybody's Time and not waste time. But it's so nice if you can kind of make it wild. Shake it up while they got those cameras rolling. So that's what I kind of call make it wild. If you can be a little wild, do it. The cameras are running. Let's fucking do it. You know what I mean? Let's make it wild. So that's what I kind of like to do. And when that does happen, it's so fun.

[Ryan Tillotson]

But especially if everyone's game for it.

[Molly Shannon]

Yeah, if everyone's game. I always want to be respectful to my fellow performers. It's a tennis match. You work together. But. And I like. If people are wild with me, I just like being kind of wild. So, yes, that does come from the stage show, Saturday Night Live. The stage show. I would kind of know if I was doing Catherine Gallagher, for example, live on stage. I know I'm going to come out, introduce myself, try to get the part in the movie and then leave. So I have an idea of the beats and then I want to be loose within those beats.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes.

[Molly Shannon]

Kind of like that. So I still approach it the same way. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So good.

[Molly Shannon]

And wait, I have one more funny thing. John Hoffman in real life, since we're friends, we were just. I'm not going to get into the specifics, but it was like a. Like a. Something that had to do with business about the show behind the scenes. And it was like cast related or whatever. And we were discussing something and I was giving advice like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da. And I was like, see, I really am Bev Mellon in real life. I'm like a producer. I go, this is. See, I am Bev. He was like, exactly. Because I was like, I would do this, I would do that. And so we were just laughing. So I hope that story can still play without the specifics.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, I think Bev Melon. I think I even noticed it when you. You like, I'm taking them off the email. Like I said, you had immediately emailed me and like, oh, that's so funny. I was just like, oh, this. This is like Bev Mellon.

[Molly Shannon]

That's so funny.

[Maggie Bowles]

Exactly.

[Molly Shannon]

And then the funny thing is, at the premieres, you're the brilliant executives are all there too. They were at the premiere and Dan and Jess. Yes. And then the heads of 20th and the heads of Hulu and women and, you know, Carrie Burke, the head of 20th, came up and she was like, I think you're doing me, which I'm not. But I had not met Carrie before, but I was like, oh, my God, that's so funny.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Isn't that so funny? That's so funny.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Love that.

[Maggie Bowles]

There's a shot in this episode where Bev Mellon sets down a massive water bottle.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's huge.

[Maggie Bowles]

It's so big. And we couldn't help but think, is this related to writer Ben Smith and his giant water bottle?

[Ryan Tillotson]

If you don't remember, we talked about it with Ben and Pete in episode three.

[Maggie Bowles]

Three. Yeah. When we were talking about Rudy. Here's John Hoffman.

[John Hoffman]

You're going really deep here, I'm just gonna say. And I'm gonna expose some things and share some things that are deep and maybe somewhat problematic. No. Yes. It might have started with Ben Smith, who everyone in the writer's room rightly adores, including myself. And Ben Smith, though, has the largest water jug anyone has ever seen.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We heard.

[Maggie Bowles]

We learned this.

[John Hoffman]

Ben Smith is carrying a big ass water jug. So. Okay. And it's daunting to everyone. It's impressive. It's daunting. It's all of those things. I sound like I'm making terrible sexual metaphors. So it did find its way into. Which does make a lot of sense also for a film executive in Hollywood. Rigorous keeping to discipline, keeping to keeping it trim and fit. Bev Mellon had to have one of those big things. Now, I will say there was a big bit, big, physical, funny, insane bit that we did have to trim out. Again, these episodes have been so big and delightful and long.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Absolutely.

[John Hoffman]

It's her and Oliver. Oliver, you know, is talking to her about junk. And she's telling him, you know, you got to watch out for Loretta with junk that's in there. But then Marty, Oliver is very, you know, listen, I'm a total body guy. I'm like, I work out, you know, does all that. And then at some point, he picked up her water bottle and nearly fell over. So very funny bit. But it was like he had a lot of very funny bits about sort of being beefy and virile. So it was like pick and choose from a wealth of amazing choices.

[Ryan Tillotson]

He does talk about it a lot. I take care of my body, too.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

He would describe me as a fit guy.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah. When he was doing his master two times a week. What did he say something or something like that? Yeah, you know, Jack Junk. Right. The former Olympic swimmer.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

So you know what that means, right? Big ass arms, Big ass legs.

[Maggie Bowles]

Big ass.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, no, no. I think to me, he has a perfectly normal Physique. In fact, he reminds me of me when I was doing the elliptical two times a week.

[Maggie Bowles]

The theme of doubles comes up very explicitly, and I feel like doubles and twins has kind of been a theme woven throughout the entire series. Can you tell us about that theme and maybe some of the other times throughout the different seasons that we've seen it come up?

[John Hoffman]

Yes, I love that question because it's also, like so much of this season, particularly right. Is set up right in that opening podcasting narration of Charles, where he's talking about film. Gives you an opportunity to look at, is that the me I used to be or the me I want to be remembered like? Or is there some version of that that I can better? And the way in which reflecting on yourself can sort of tether out into bigger things for yourself in your life and in your goals and ambitions and your own sort of personal sort of expansion with friendships and love lives and all of that. So that was one of the main things, but also the genuine sort of doubles and. And doppelgangers and everything else runs through this season in a specific way. But it also feels like this was the moment to look into both. Obviously, Saz and Charles is the running mystery throughout the season, but it's also the opportunity to look at. In episode five, the screenwriter is creating a movie based on these three people. So there's an interpretation of them that he's doing. And they, meanwhile, have done a podcast. So they are both sort of looking at each other as the sort of central theme of, you know, feeling like imposters in sort of a separate feeling from someone else writing about you, interpreting investigatively what happened to someone who died in your building, and how the disconnect between, particularly Mabel and Marshall in that moment in episode five, all of that reflective stuff plays out between the brothers sisters as these twins that are reflecting back on each other. And then certainly by the end of five, when we get into that photo shoot and the doppelgangers and the looks and the expansiveness and how that can cause great confusion and great sort of maelstrom at the end of everything sort of feels like a real big swing of an episode that way.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Totally.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

And then you get the call. They're making your movie. You're a real writer now. You're convinced the voice in your head, the one that says you're a fraud, is finally gonna go away. Except it doesn't. And you start to wonder if it's ever will.

[John Hoffman]

But I think we all feel that way, right? So it's like I know when I started writing, and still when I start writing, anytime I have to start something new, I really genuinely think, like, oh, for God's sakes. I don't. I don't even think I have any talent this way. I can't. I have nothing to start with. I've got nothing. It's always a starting over feeling of. Of for me in a lot of ways, just disconnect from any authority over it. So you always sort of are struggling with imposter syndrome. I think if. If you want it to be something good, which I think is the intention of most of us trying to do anything. Totally.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

After the break, more doubles and imposters and mirrors.

[Maggie Bowles]

Welcome back. We're talking with John Hoffman, showrunner, co creator, all about episode five, where the doubles have turned to triples and quadruples. But season four is not the first time we've been introduced to the idea of a double.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, another one that we. We noticed from, you know, a few seasons before. But Cinda and all of her minions that are all like kind of little doppelgangers of herself, too. It's just we see all this. This theme.

[John Hoffman]

You're talking across the series. Yeah, you're totally right. Oh, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

I mean, and. And, you know, Charles and Szazz are the original doubles series. And the doubles have been. The mirror's been broken, you know.

[John Hoffman]

Oh, my God, you're. You're totally calling out, like, exactly. The thing that we've been doing that sometimes I've missed. Like, when you say it, I'm like, oh, right. And Alice in season two is. Is making.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

A whole mirror image of Mabel's apartment.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes. Yeah, very interesting.

[John Hoffman]

We've got to stop. We've got to really stop it. We're able to. Clearly.

[Maggie Bowles]

So cliche, as the brothers sisters would say.

[John Hoffman]

Maggie. That's exactly right.

[Maggie Bowles]

To bring it back to the writer

[John Hoffman]

of the movie, Marshall P. Pope.

[Maggie Bowles]

Marshall P. Pope.

[John Hoffman]

Yes. Because there was a thing that was cut, and I was sad to cut it, but we were just. That was a big first episode of this season, season four, where when Bev Mellon is at the table, sort of introducing everybody, there was one moment when she introduced Marshall and she said, the writer of the movie, Marshall P. Pope. And he had to stop her and say, wait a minute, it's Marshall P. Pope. And she's like, yeah, that's what I said, Marshall P. Pope. And they're like, no, but you're putting the emphasis on P and it should be emphasis on Pope. So it was a Very funny exchange they had back and forth about his name. So it.

[Maggie Bowles]

I would have remembered it if that had stayed in.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Hoffman]

You would have remembered if you'd watched that scene in rehearsal. Marshall P. Pope. Marshall P. Pope. You're like, no, it's Marshall P. Pope.

[Maggie Bowles]

Marshall P. Pope. That's what I'm saying. Marshall P. Pope.

[John Hoffman]

Right.

[Maggie Bowles]

So we learned that he's obsessed with Charlie Kaufman. Charlie Kaufman made some pretty strange films. Strange films.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You know, adaptation. For example, the title of this John Malcolm Malkovich.

[Maggie Bowles]

The Brother Sisters Are Human Naturely Weird.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

So we were kind of wondering, like, how weird is this movie that he's writing gonna be, you know, if he's such a big Charlie Kaufman fan.

[Producer/Host Intro]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

We've got these sister. Brother sisters directing.

[John Hoffman]

You're reminding me of a moment I was seated because this is ridiculous. Life that turns into. You have moments that you're like, really? This is what's happening. But I was at a dinner with Meryl Streep, and we were talking about how much fun the show has been and how, like. And I think someone, Steve or Marty said something like, oh, I think people are gonna love season three. And Meryl said, well, I don't know. And I'm like, what? You don't know? And she said, well, do you not realize your show is odd? She said, not everyone might take to it. She said, because it's odd. And I was like, I guess it

[Ryan Tillotson]

is a little odd.

[John Hoffman]

So, I mean, yeah, so there's something about the way in which you approach material that is specific. And if you're coming with a point of view, a vision or whatever you want to call it, you're going to come with. And I've had a lot of people say that I am all over this show. And I'm like, what does that mean? And they're like, if you know, you. It's that thing that is specific. And I'm like, oh, specific. And now it's, of course, specifically odd in Meryl's terms. So I do think, you know, any artistic endeavor is going to be imbued with a nervous guy who's. How do I make a script work on a podcast? And this trio that is, you know, across the country that I don't know. And then how do the Brothers Sisters match up with that and what do they do to sort of create something that feels a little different? So it felt all very Charlie Kaufman esque in the process, because a lot of Charlie Kaufman stuff does reflective stuff, does mirror images and all of that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Was anything ever written for the movie?

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay. I'm excited to see.

[Maggie Bowles]

Will we see it?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm excited to see some stuff.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, you may see some before the end of everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've seen. Oh, in episode four, you saw Howard auditioning.

[Maggie Bowles]

We did.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's from Howard.

[Maggie Bowles]

We did, but. But Josh Gad got the part. Unfortunately, yes.

[John Hoffman]

We won't see. Let's see any more from Howard.

[Maggie Bowles]

So we also. We love Howard becoming the production assistant or not a production assistant. What is it? A talent liaison and documentarian on set. Documentarian and talent liaison. He was working at the theater before we found out he runs the Escape Room. How does Howard keep getting these. How do you think he keeps getting these jobs? Do you. Do you have an explanation for it?

[John Hoffman]

I do. He insinuates himself into every possible situation he can get into. Set himself up either next to or near to or become closest to to, then become the most important person in the room. That is a great trait of Howard's, and I love the way Michael plays that. It's sort of like never ending delight to me to watch him insinuate himself, become an authority in a place he has no business in, act like the authority of it, and then start gossiping about everyone until everyone's tired of him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's great.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

Well, I keep saying, like, Howard was going to be part of this movie and the weathering kills him. Like he had to be part of the movie.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's Michael. Cyril Creighton. He plays Howard.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll be hearing him a little bit throughout the entire rest of this season of the podcast.

[Maggie Bowles]

Basically, like the show.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

So he's tenacious. He wants to be part of a group. He's trying to figure out. What I love about him is that he is constantly trying to figure out what he's good at, and a lot of times it's trial and error and he's failing. We'll see how this goes this season. But, you know, he's not willing to not be part of the group. And he is shameless when it comes to inserting himself in situations.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Last season, he was. I don't know what the role was like. Yeah, like a stagehand of some kind.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

He was the director's assistant.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Director's assistant.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

Assistant Assistant director, I guess.

[John Hoffman]

Assistant.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

I wouldn't say he was the assistant director. I'd say he was the assistant to the director.

[Maggie Bowles]

To the director. Yes.

[John Hoffman]

There's this standing on. It feels like flypaper.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

It's a tacky mat production thing. I work Here, now. Know all the words. Comptex, gobo, tweeny, up and over grip.

[John Hoffman]

I can continue.

[Maggie Bowles]

I can't.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

It gets the dust off your shoes. You don't track anything into the sister's nest.

[John Hoffman]

It's a kickoff gift from Eva.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

She has a full line of sticky products, boob tape, wound glue. She's huge in adhesives. Anyway, that's a wrap on me. I gotta go. Martini two shot that best boy. So I think it's hilarious when he just shows up. And that was a late addition. I think that scene where he's saying all the terms.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I loved it. That was so good though.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

All the film terms. That was a late add to the episode. But it's so funny. What I love about him is that he's like almost constantly, always role playing. So I'm like, who is the real Howard? He's always sort of a different character.

[Ryan Tillotson]

While Howard is finding a new identity as a professional in the movie, Mabel is finally able to identify as a podcast producer.

[John Hoffman]

Well, you, you know, we, we have a podcast, so. So you are a pod Smith, A crime fluencer. How about podcast producer?

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm a podcast producer. I'm a podcast producer.

[John Hoffman]

No, but it's more like I'm a podcast producer. Yeah, you don't have to overdo it. You could just say, oh, I'm a podcast producer.

[Producer/Host Intro]

Producer.

[Molly Shannon]

I'm a podcast producer.

[Maggie Bowles]

That. Why is that so scary to say out loud?

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

Maybe it's cuz you're a producer on a podcast about a crime that has 40,000 suspects.

[John Hoffman]

I want to ask you what you thought of that moment.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hello, that's John Hoffman again.

[John Hoffman]

When you tell people what you do, how do you do it?

[Maggie Bowles]

John, let me tell you this. Ryan used to be so bad at describing what he did for a living that everybody thought he was a porn director. Everybody thought that that was what he was not saying. And I kept having to explain, he's actually not making porn, he's making podcasts. I'm so sorry that he's so bad at describing this. Literally happened all the time.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, the podcasts are about porn.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, I mean, obviously

[John Hoffman]

that is hysterical. This all goes back to Mabel's. I love that moment. First of all, for the way the three of them are playing it, to watch Selina find her way to. That is. She's just a delight in those moments. You know, it's all that stuff. It's like when I was an actor telling someone, you were. You know, when I was acting more in my earlier Life. Even when I started writing, you know, I'm a writer, you know, to say those things out loud and kind of

[Ryan Tillotson]

back to the imposter thing.

[John Hoffman]

It's always, you know, until there's the thing that people go, what did you. What have you done? You're like, well, I'm not. You know, I'm not. I've done it. Like. But you wouldn't know, like, that kind of thing. You're doing that dance. And when do you finally own some. Not, you know, identification with. But at least the ability to sort of say, this is what I do, and when do you give yourself allowance for that? Is a really interesting question, I think.

[Maggie Bowles]

And absolutely, yeah, I feel like I identify with that. That journey that Mabel's on of self discovery and finding what her, you know, settling into your gifts, maybe.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, it took me a long time.

[Maggie Bowles]

Trusting yourself.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I'm better at saying, I'm a podcast.

[Maggie Bowles]

He's gotten much better at describing what he does. It's true.

[John Hoffman]

Good. You're Damn good at YouTube. The. I think it's. I think you're right. And I think it's that discomfort that I. I think is so. And it's connective and watching someone, you know who. I always talk to friends who have kids who are maybe early adolescence, and some of them know exactly what they want to do. And I thought, boy, what a gift. And I really felt that too, when I was young. I really did. And I watched really talented friends of mine who had, like 12 different directions they could go, and it was hard for them to land on something. So I think Mabel, you know, Mabel was like, had a lot going on through those years till the point where, like, God, what. When am I going to land on something that says, this is what I do? And God knows, you know, a podcast with these two crazy guys in her building about murders isn't naturally where she went when she would have gone. You know, where she would have gone when she was in her adolescence to say, that's what. That's what I am. That's what I want to be.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. She wouldn't have pulled that idea out of thinning.

[John Hoffman]

No, I don't think so.

[Maggie Bowles]

She needed to.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It took them. She needed to fall into it. Yeah, well. And it took, I think, the help of them to say, like, this is what you do. Clearly.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. That. Support the people. Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

And you get a firm like Marshall does, too, and says. Marshall says, look what you've done. Are you crazy? What are you. You're having trouble saying it. You're not imposters.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, exactly.

[John Hoffman]

You get that, like, oh, yeah, I guess. Okay. That's one way I've. No.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

And that I. And that ties back to, you know, the way you see yourself and the way other people see you and the disconnect between those things. Which one's the truth, you know?

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

The only thing that gets you over imposter syndrome is actually doing the thing you want to be better at.

[John Hoffman]

Mabel. I figured out the how. It wasn't one person who did the murder. It was two. One to shoot and one to clean up. Now, which two people could have done it?

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

Putting ideas together till they make some kind of sense, until you've got something that you did, something you figured out, or it all makes less sense. And then it's time for another rewrite.

[Ryan Tillotson]

At the end of this episode, we are doing a photo shoot, and there are so many Charles's, there are so many Mabel's, there are so many Oliver's. I'm just curious about putting that together and was it ever confusing and just continue. Tell me a little bit about. Yeah, about that on set experience.

[John Hoffman]

For me, there were never enough. Is my answer there. I genuinely wanted it to be like, just confused, confuse, confuse, confuse as much as possible. So that. And Jessica Yu, who directed this so beautifully, the fifth and sixth episodes, had just a great handle on how to sort of manage all of that, because it got very complex. There are mirrors. There are. And we're shooting in this space. We had one day to shoot this incredibly big photo shoot day. So it was a big, big task. And she did so beautifully and handling it masterfully. But it really was. It had to build to the end of episode five and feel like pandemonium had just broken out. So I liked as much confusion as we could get.

[Maggie Bowles]

Did you ever walk over and say, like, steve, Steve. And then Eugene Levy turns around.

[John Hoffman]

Yes. No, that really did happen. And that day, shooting in that photo shoot was crazy because everyone was in, you know, so there were a lot of people. More than that. We were shooting downtown New York, and it was a very crowded day in that photo shoot day that we were shooting, just to mean it, like, around the set, like. So people were visiting set that day because we were downtown New York and people lived nearby. Sass Goldberg came over. Steve's wife Ann came over, and many of our famous people had friends dropping by. It was a crazy day of hanging out and fun and laughing and, oh, do we have to shoot now? You know, so, like, one of those things. So it was really great. But what was the original question? I forget.

[Maggie Bowles]

I asked if you ever tapped or, you know, you were trying to talk to Steve, but you turned around and it was Eugene or someone, the wrong person. When since they were all also dressed the same too.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Everyone looked the same.

[John Hoffman]

Well, can I tell you the big one for me? And I. I mean, I still have in my head, I would be next to Paul Rudd for, I want to say, five minutes and not realize it was him. It was that wig on him that made him look like Oliver. And the way he plays Glenn Stubbins as, like, I wish I could share, like, if the idea that it's Paul Rudd and he is the most minor person in that room playing because of the character playing.

[Michael Cyril Creighton]

Yes.

[John Hoffman]

And he's being told, get off stage and do all the, you know. And then that moment when he comes over and goes, wiener to Wiener.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, Wiener to Wiener. It's a great one.

[John Hoffman]

That was not planned outside of. It was scripted. It was not planned what Paul might do to exhibit Wiener to Wiener. And I will never forget Marty. We did it several times, and each time it went deeper. Wiener. And Marty really literally still doesn't stop talking about it. He said, I have known Paul Rudd, and he's very good friends, those guys, very good friends for many years, really. But he said, Paul Rudd's commitment coming in. And he said, all of a sudden he's up against me in this way that no one's really ever been. And then there was one take where he. I swear, there was a moment we were going to make out, and I was like, what is he doing? But it was. It's the genius of Paul Rudd with Marty short holding it together. And Zach would lose it. Zach was out of the frame a lot of times. Like, I'm not believing what I'm seeing.

[Producer/Host Intro]

Oh, so funny.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's a great story. That was a great moment. I. In my notes, all I wrote was

[Maggie Bowles]

both of us wrote Wiener to Wiener in our notes.

[John Hoffman]

We'll see if it comes up. Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

When we're.

[Molly Shannon]

I know.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, when we're taking notes, we're watching and so we're just kind of jotting down, like, all the things we notice. And so sometimes the most ridiculous things that I look at, I'm like, what does that mean? I don't know. I just wrote down Wiener to Wiener.

[Molly Shannon]

I don't know.

[John Hoffman]

We had her do it so many different ways that read. And just the way she is as an actress, like, finding that character in that way and just the seriousness of which she in her lower register just wiener to wiener was just a perfect read.

[Maggie Bowles]

So good. That's it for today. Something I was just remembering that we didn't talk about in the last episode is that I loved how they did the Only Martyrs theme music but in the style of James Bow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Maggie Bowles]

That was so, so fun.

[Ryan Tillotson]

If we can get Sid on here again, I would love to talk to him about it.

[Maggie Bowles]

About that. Yeah. We have received a lot of emails this week, some entries in our escape room giveaway and some theories. If you haven't entered into the escape room giveaway and you want to go, you're near New York or Los Angeles. Enter Enter. All right, here's what y' all have been emailing about.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Tara and Alyssa think there should be an Only murders themed oh hell, card deck.

[Maggie Bowles]

Great idea, great idea. I do think they play with regular playing cards, but it would be fun to have like a themed deck with only murders, right?

[Ryan Tillotson]

I would love it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Sarah L. Remembered from last season directors talking about shooting props and things as clues and noticed some interesting ones in this season. So listeners, see what you see.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Keep an eye out. Vinya suspects a connection between the barkeeper and Brazos because of the bar in the background during Charles's flashback.

[Maggie Bowles]

Interesting. Melissa B. And Yesenia F. Suspect Joy, which we haven't seen her.

[Ryan Tillotson]

No. Charles's ex who is now dating or fiance to Bakula.

[Maggie Bowles]

Patty G. Wonders about connections between the story and the film adaptation, perhaps even a big clue to the murderer.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She also noticed Rudy's Christmas sweater is the same as Ryan Reynolds Christmas sweater. Is that a famous Christmas sweater?

[Maggie Bowles]

Apparently. I didn't know, but apparently V. Lynn M. Suspects Marshall 2010 vision very good for a sniper. Very good observation.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thanks also to Anna B. From Miami who thinks it's one of

[Ryan Tillotson]

the two sisters and Vinnie S. Who suspects Anna with the rifle from Dudenoff's apartment, Tawny with lifting the body and burning it and Trina doing mop up cleanup situation.

[Maggie Bowles]

Interesting. Lots of theories. We did our best to try to explain them but we know we did a bad job so probably the better place to discuss this would be Reddit. Reddit. So on that note, here is Hannah with what Reddit's been talking about.

[Producer/Host Intro]

Hey Maggie. Ryan and listeners, after another crazy cliffhanger, we're officially halfway done with the season and I am back with a fresh batch of theories from the Only Murders subreddit. Firstly, we have A theory from affectionateclerk176 about the cliffhanger that ties in with this season's theme of doubles, they say the third Charles is still in the makeup chair at the end of episode five. If that's an actual gun we heard, I bet that Charles stand in double will be the victim. Everyone heard the brothers sisters announce Charles was going to make up. And this could be another mistaken identity target. It would parallel the Charles Saz Malbeck switch where Charles announced he was going somewhere before a lookalike took a hit for him. Then this episode we were properly introduced to Marshall, who we now know has secrets such as his fake beard. He tells the trio he has an alibi which we don't actually see, so people are quite sceptical about it. Shake your Kitty says Marshall is very suspicious right now. He clearly did not write the script and I've seen great theories about Saz being the one who actually wrote the script. So Marshall could have killed her to take her place as a scriptwriter. We also have procrastinator 7 with evidence supporting this theory. Marshall's one of our killers. He has motive, the ability to kill, and far more evidence against him than any other character in the show. Why would he kill Saz? Because Saz wrote the movie. In episode five, Marshall's script describes all three of the characters movements around the clue board with spot on accuracy. And obviously podcasts are an audio medium so Marshall would have no way to see our trio in person. But Saz has many times. The script is far too accurate to be written by Marshall. Charles says he's never seen himself portrayed so accurately before and the script is very complimentary of him. Now, Szaz knew Charles more than anyone and of course she'd be extremely complimentary of him. Marshall being the killer would fit perfectly with the theme of his character as he truly has imposter syndrome because he stole the script. Now another popular theory on the sub at the moment is that there are actually three killers rather than two. Hal Jordan888 says, I'm starting to think that there might be three killers and not just two. I think the photoshoot might be hinting at three because there was someone from the building, someone from Hollywood and a stunt actor. The three killers could be one from each spot. I personally love this idea because there's such an emphasis on doubles this season that three killers would be a pretty cool twist. Shakeyerkitty also pointed out something I found really interesting. They say there's a western movie named the Sisters Brothers where those brothers are assassins, which could be a hint that our brother's siblings could be assassins. Now it seems too easy for the killers to be the twin producers, but what if the brothers were actually triplets? Could Marshall be a third brother's sibling? And then Zesty Clothes Detail 369 has another idea as to who could be a potential third brother's sibling. They ask, does anyone else think the brother's sisters look like the Westy Sauce family's daughter? What if they're all related and that's how they got access to the Dudanov apartment to shoot? Moving on, we also have an interesting theory from Time Entrepreneur 57 who has, as they call it, a Jonky theory. My new lead is Loretta and Jack Jonk. In the latest episode, the trio obsesses over someone muscular as the carrier of the body to the incinerator and they mention that Jack is a former Olympic swimmer, which leads me to believe he was the mover of the dead body. The motive would be that Loretta desperately wanted the All Oliver to come to Los Angeles and maybe her intention was to kill Charles so Oliver would have nothing keeping him in New York City. And finally, we have queasysbytes6012 with perhaps my favorite theory so far. They say solve it Hammy. Faye Baker has an evil stunt pig. Love that. So let's see if episode six proves some of these theories is right or if we are headed in another direction altogether. I'll be back next week with more from the Only Murders in the Building subreddit.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Only Murders in the Building podcast. Please send your thoughts and theories to [e-mail] you can send us a voice memo and we might play it on the show.

[Ryan Tillotson]

If you enjoy the show, take a minute to subscribe. Rate Follow us and leave us a review. Only Murders in the Building podcast is a production of Straw Hut Media, hosted and produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Stephen Markley, original music by Kyle Merritt and only Murders in the Building theme music by Siddhartha Khosla. Assistant editor is Daniel Ferreira and production assistant is Caroline Mendoza.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thanks to Molly Shannon and Michael Cyril Creighton for talking with us this week and thanks to Hannah over at Reddit.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And a big, big thanks as always to John Hoffman and the entire Hulu team.

[Maggie Bowles]

Bye.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She also noticed Rudy's Xmas sweater is the same as Rylee as Ryan Reynolds Xmas sweater, which apparently I'm saying Xmas. You wrote Xmas, so I'm saying short for Christmas.

[Maggie Bowles]

Just say Christmas like a normal person.