S4 E8: Lifeboat (Part 2)

Summary

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Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast

S4 E8: “Lifeboat (Part 2)”

Release Date: October 18, 2024

Hosted by Ryan Tillotson & Maggie Bowles

Special Guests: John Hoffman (Showrunner/Co-Creator), Desmond Borges (Alfonso Oliveira), with behind-the-scenes insights from the cast and crew

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the deep-dive behind Season 4, Episode 8 (“Lifeboat”) of Only Murders in the Building, focusing on the intertwined fates of the “Sauce family,” the Westies, the lore around Tony Danza, the philosophical questions at the heart of Dudenoff’s death, and the beginnings of Mabel’s new mural.
The podcast explores the themes of community, chosen family, survival, and what it takes to hold onto home and connection within the quirky, mysterious world of the Arconia.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why “Lifeboat”? — Episode Title and Thematic Resonance

[01:23-03:52]

• John Hoffman explains the pivot from the script’s working title “Gangs of New York” to “Lifeboat” after seeing how the narrative coalesced:

  “When we came around to this episode...we were really knowing we were going into this idea of people bonded together in a tough situation and hanging on to each other...” (John Hoffman, 01:31-02:00)

• He draws a parallel between a lifeboat (“people hanging in together to survive”) and a pre-war apartment or affordable unit in NYC, illuminating humor and desperation around rent control.
• Notable Quote:

  “I love the idea of a lifeboat can also look like a pre-war apartment building or an affordable apartment on the Upper West Side, you know, and what would you do to hang on to that?” (John Hoffman, 03:33)

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Behind the Scenes: Sets & Props

[04:03-07:00]

• Charles’s apartment was meticulously rebuilt for this episode.

  “He’s a wizard.” (John Hoffman, 04:15)

• The prop table is laden with callbacks to past seasons: the morning turkey, the necklace, jewelry, the Hardy Boys books.
• Tracking props, especially jewelry, became “heartwarming” but also “a challenge,” referencing the detailed continuity work required to maintain consistency.

  “The morning turkey is the greatest.” (John Hoffman, 06:02)

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Tony Danza: Omnipresent Arbiter of NYC Style and Lore

[07:00-10:53]

• Writers riffed on Tony Danza as an ultimate party authority and trend-setter in the Only Murders universe.

  “Tony Danza is the unofficial sort of arbiter...throwing the greatest parties in New York and also when to wear white after Labor Day, all of the...like, there’s a whole thing about Tony Danza in New York as a sort of seminal figure in culture.” (John Hoffman, 07:18)

• Comic gold: Eugene Levy’s deadpan delivery, and Zach Galifianakis’s on-set reactions, made these moments nearly impossible for the cast to film without breaking.

  “There’s times when you just are in a room full of the funniest people in the world and then you’re like, okay, I can’t believe this is the scene we gave them to do.” (John Hoffman, 09:42)

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Exploding the Westies’ Backstory & the Dudenoff Question

[11:12-13:54]

• In this episode, the “roots” tying the Westies together are finally revealed. Seemingly random, cult-like connections are made coherent—their common pasts are sourced to Dudenoff’s film class.

  “The idea to me that the Brothers Sisters were a part of this connection to Dudenoff and his film class...I felt that was really cool.” (John Hoffman, 12:37)

• Inspired by stories of real NYC “rent control schemes,” the writers channeled true tales of community, secrecy, and (sometimes) “outrageous” schemes to hold onto apartments.

  “People doing incredibly odd things...just to do this and blah, blah, blah. These stories seem a bit outlandish, and yet that’s what we’re playing off of...” (John Hoffman, 13:18)

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Desmond Borges on Alfonso and the “Sauce Family”

[14:18-18:41]

• Desmond hasn’t watched the episode yet—a conscious tactic for distance so he can eventually “enjoy it as an audience member.”
• The Sauce family is modeled after Desmond’s own multi-ethnic background in Chicago:

  “I feel like the Sauce family represents a lot of people I’ve known throughout my life. ...Everyone’s really trying to do their best...for their family and for, like, the extended family that’s in the building.” (Desmond Borges, 16:20)

• He explains the practicality and humor of hanging “hamon Iberico” in odd places (“meat, butter”) and the importance of food, survival, and mutual aid.

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In-Jokes, Set Moments & Sauce Details

[18:41-19:35]

• The authenticity of prop sauces:

  “I wanted to know, like, are we good at making sauce? ...The props department was excellent...They had good sauce on the stove.” (Desmond Borges, 19:21)

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Dudenoff as a Teacher Archetype & Only Murders’ Emotional Core

[20:26-22:33]

• John Hoffman speaks to Dudenoff’s bittersweet role: a lover of film who never made his own, instead “casting” the people around him and building his personal “It’s a Wonderful Life” in the Arconia.

  “I love the idea of people who love something so much but are perfectly happy living lives where they hand that dream over to someone else and encourage them is the most incredible thing to me.” (John Hoffman, 20:26)

• Parallels drawn between life, film, and the series itself—finding family through creative projects.

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Favorite On-Set Moments & Chemistry

[23:23-36:10]

• Delights in watching Eugene Levy “mess with Steve Martin” (“like a cat...pushing that little omelet,” 23:23).
• Mabel’s mural symbolizes independence and emotional growth; a tiny, improvised Steve Martin gesture at the elevator confirms subtle yet profound shifts in Arconia dynamics.

  “Her growth to sort of find her own independence...at the end of episode eight, I have to say, also, one of my favorite moments...It was her at the elevator...She’s claiming some independence in it. But it’s so sweet.” (John Hoffman, 24:50)

• Borges recounts the surreal joy of working with icons and fellow Westies, revealing Richard Kind’s signature “sugar!” expletive and the collaborative, improvisatory spirit on set.

  “To be able to, like, make Steve or Marty laugh at a moment...total dream come true.” (Desmond Borges, 27:46)

• Recalling a day where Steve Martin’s live comedic range astounded the room:

  “The most memorable moment...Steve slowly starting to fold the blanket and starting to lose his cool, right? ...Watching him do that from the rehearsal through every take was probably the most amazing thing that I’ve ever witnessed being on set ever.” (Desmond Borges, 34:02)

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Philosophical Quandaries & Morality in “Only Murders”

[37:03-39:54]

• The episode challenges viewers with the morality of what the Westies do for Dudenoff. Borges reflects on “morally digestible but technically illegal” actions—how those gray areas resonate with the immigrant or outsider perspective in America.

  “Sometimes you have to do something that in your heart of hearts, you know is right, yet the man will tell you it’s wrong...” (Desmond Borges, 37:54)

• The emotional weight of honoring Dudenoff’s final wish is acknowledged, especially on the Sauce family’s daughter.
• The group agrees that leaving “dark” actions off screen lets the audience imagine, rather than witness, the grimmest moments.

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Fan Theories, Easter Eggs & Reddit Scoops

[42:05-50:31]

• Theories abound about who the real killer is: Loretta, Bev and Marshall, Dr. Maggie, the doorman, Helga (as undercover FBI)—or metal poisoning as a season-wide motif.
• Easter eggs are highlighted, and the showrunners express amusement and awe at the depth of Reddit theorists.

  “We strive to be as intelligent as the Reddit board thinks we are.” (John Hoffman, 46:43)

• References to meta-details such as the Lady Longorian 19-in-1 multitool and the show’s love of props and anagrams.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the title shift:

  “At the very last minute, really, in editing, decided, like, I feel like this is more lifeboat...” (John Hoffman, 02:50)

• On the show’s community:

  “People finding each other in New York City. You hang on to them. Like a lifeboat.” (John Hoffman, 13:54)

• On set with legends:

  “As a little des [Desmond], I saw Three Amigos well before I was supposed to. And I used to walk around and make everybody call me Ned Nederlander.” (Desmond Borges, 27:46)

• Meta-parallel:

  “Casting each other as the most important person in their life, each other’s lives for the next however many years...something that reflects into reality.” (Maggie Bowles, 22:33)

• Comic riffing:

  “Sugar. Sugar!...he never curses. He uses the word sugar incessantly.” (Desmond Borges, 29:46)

• Viewer theory:

  “I am convinced that we will discover that [Glenn Stubbins] has metal poisoning and that is going to be the thing that connects everyone.” (Fan voice memo, 45:53)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:23 — John Hoffman explains how “Lifeboat” became the episode’s title and metaphor
• 04:15 — Behind-the-scenes set/prop talk, rebuilding Charles’s apartment
• 07:00 — Tony Danza’s strange significance and writing-room lore
• 11:12 — Uniting the Westies’ backstories and Dudenoff’s influence
• 16:20 — Desmond Borges on family and community dynamics mirrored by the Sauce family
• 19:35 — Real sauce on set: confirming prop authenticity
• 20:26 — Dudenoff as archetype of the “teacher who inspires”
• 23:23 — Eugene Levy’s comedic interplay with Steve Martin
• 24:50 — Mabel’s mural and growth; Steve Martin’s tender improvisation (“You good?”)
• 27:46 — Borges on working with the comedy legends and forming the Westies
• 34:02 — Most magical set moment: Steve Martin’s “folding the blanket” scene
• 37:54 — Philosophical conundrum: The morality of the Westies’ actions
• 42:05+ — Fan theories, Easter eggs, and Reddit sleuthing

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Flow & Tone

The episode is animated by a tone of warmth and reverence for both the creative process and the community at the heart of “Only Murders in the Building.” Anecdotes about on-set camaraderie (and comedic chaos), as well as philosophical digressions, cement the podcast as a celebration of ensemble storytelling—blurring lines between on-screen fiction and the off-screen “found family” of cast and crew.

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Final Thoughts

• “Lifeboat (Part 2)” peels back the layers of episode 8, illuminating how the themes of survival, found family, and moral ambiguity are woven together with humor and heart.
• The Westies’ saga, the Dudenoff question, and Mabel’s new beginning all serve the show’s ongoing exploration of what it means to belong—and how, sometimes, building your own “lifeboat” (or mural, or mystery) is the only way to weather the storms of life in the Arconia.

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Transcript

[Host or Narrator]

Strawhut Media.

[Desmond Borges]

I saw three amigos well before I was supposed to. And I used to walk around and make everybody call me Ned Nederlander.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Hello and welcome to the Only Murders in the Building podcast. I'm Ryan Tillotson.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I'm Maggie Bowles. And we are looking behind the scenes and mining for clues as we meet the cast and creators of the Hulu original series, Only Murders in the Building.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Today on the show, we're continuing the conversation all about season four, episode eight, Lifeboat.

[Maggie Bowles]

We'll hear from showrunner and co creator John Hoffman and Desmond Borges, who plays Alfonso Oliveira, the final member of the Sauce family.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We'll talk about the legend of Tony Danza in the Only Murders universe, the philosophical conundrum of Dudenoff's death and the beginnings of Mabel's new mural.

[Maggie Bowles]

So let's Talk about episode 8, 408. Lifeboat. Another episode where the film mentioned in the title factors pretty heavily into the. Into the episode. I think, like, it kind of bookends it. We get it at the beginning and at the end.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, I didn't know anything about. About Lifeboat. I've never also never seen it.

[Maggie Bowles]

Never seen it. Although I hear it's one of Alfred Hitchcock's most underrated films.

[John Hoffman]

Ah, yes, it is.

[Maggie Bowles]

So tell us about Lifeboat.

[John Hoffman]

Lifeboat. Well, it's interesting because I was hoping,

[Maggie Bowles]

you know, this is John Hoffman, showrunner, co creator.

[John Hoffman]

I think everyone has expectations when you hear we're going to be naming titles of each of these episodes movies. And certainly Rear Window would be the Hitchcock title that many I think would expect to find in this group. And I would too. I would normally think, great, let's put Rear Window in. And it might have made sense. It probably made sense for some of the others. Some things just landed in the. The way they did. But when we came around to this episode 8, which was written by Kristen Newman and Jake Schnezel, we were really knowing we were going into this idea of people bonded together in a tough situation and hanging on to each other and making calls that are only within the certain situation that requires intense need and love or other things. So that kind of hotbed situation felt right, the actual script. And I feel bad because we don't have a Martin Scorsese title in the group. But at the time the script was written, it was called Gangs of New York. And the further we got into it, though, thematically, I was finding myself distanced from what the content of the episode was with Gangs of New York. And then when we started editing and putting together this voiceover that would be our thematic and putting it to the Gangs of New York thing, I was just like, something feels like a disconnect to me. And so I, at the very last minute, really, in editing, decided, like, I feel like this is more lifeboat, and made the segue over to that. And I really, like, was delighted and so was Kristen and Jake. And I sort of walked them through the new voiceover that reflected that and it all felt of a piece. I love the idea of a. Of a lifeboat can also look like a pre war apartment building or an affordable apartment on the Upper west side, you know, and what would you do to hang on to that? What would you do to hold on to something like that if the people around you were that important, if you were all hanging in together to survive? That felt like perfectly time for our rent controlled story that we were telling in eight.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I get it.

[Maggie Bowles]

I get it, too.

[Desmond Borges]

In New York City, a lifeboat can look a lot like an affordable apartment in a nice building on the Upper west side.

[Ryan Tillotson]

In this episode, we see a set. We see Charles's apartment that we found out. We talked to Patrick. He rebuilt it, which I thought was crazy.

[Desmond Borges]

How about that?

[John Hoffman]

He's a wizard.

[Maggie Bowles]

He's a wizard.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Which I loved hearing. But we wanted to talk about the prop table on the set. You see a lot of stuff from season one. And I'm curious, I'm curious, if that was you, how did you decide what got put in there?

[John Hoffman]

It's so great. Like, now the show is the show, right? So I watch this progression and you must know, like, being in charge of the show, I'm trying to sort of at the beginning, like, say, explain, like, why these things are important and all the details of everything are important. And then people watch the show and they recognize it. And you have artists like the brilliant Diana Burton, our prop master who worked this season for us and just perpetually like Susanna McCarthy before her delighted me. I'd walk on set and go, oh, my God. Or she would present in a prop meeting. This is what we're thinking for this. And they're thinking further along and ahead of all the things they can have on that table that represent a season one story based on a movie that's being made, all of that. And I was like, oh, my God. So it's all really discovery for me now, whereas I used to have to, like, walk people through and say, well, what if it's this? What if it's this? Now we have this history of the show that people can look at and relate to and then pull from themselves. And that's the great. When you walk in, you're completely surprised by what's in front of you, and you're like, well, who. How many. You made six of these. You know, that kind of thing.

[Maggie Bowles]

So what is on that? What is on that prop table that you. That you think is like the most niche maybe item on that? Because, I mean, we saw the turkey.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love the morning turkey there.

[Maggie Bowles]

We saw the turkey. We saw some. We saw the necklace and some of the jewelry. We saw the bassoon case. I think I saw some Hardy Boys books.

[John Hoffman]

Yes, right. All of this stuff, it makes both my heart open and feel like, oh, my God, can you believe how far we've come since season one? And then it also makes me have a little agita because I know what the writers went through every time we had to say, no, no, this is the ring that Zoe had on. And then the ring. Having to track rings and jewelry over season one was like, I think we've all talked about that. But yes. So a lot of it makes my heart go, like, in the good way. And then a lot of it causes palpitations because I remember how much it was a challenge to sort of make sense of all of it, you know, and have people understand, like, okay, this omelet is connected to this story and Charles. And then it's going to spool out this way. The rings are going to be this multiple storyline thread and then anything. I love the morning turkey, though. The morning turkey is the greatest.

[Maggie Bowles]

Another weird thing in this episode is the Tony Danza time to wear white pants extravaganza. Who's.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I was expecting to see Tony Danza in this episode.

[Maggie Bowles]

Danza is the perfect planza, I think. Tell us about Tony Danza.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, well, sure.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I.

[John Hoffman]

Again, this was one of those things that, like, wait, what are we doing? And, you know, you're sort of like, now you're following the writers who have worked this thing out that they have, like, probably too late in the day and they. They're punch drunk or whatever and they're on a Tony Danza riff. And I'm. And I remember reading and hearing about this pitch and thinking, like, wait a minute, what's going on with Tony Danza? Tony Danza is the unofficial sort of arbiter of this is. This may not even be in the cut, but in our story, Tony Danza is the unofficial arbiter of when to, you know, throwing the greatest parties in New York and also when to wear white after Labor Day, all of the. Like, there's a whole thing about Tony Danza in New York as a sort of seminal figure in culture.

[Maggie Bowles]

Is this. Is this only murders law or this is New York lore? This is like only murders lore. Okay, okay.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So there's this whole history you guys build about Tony Danza.

[John Hoffman]

Like, well, everyone follows Tony Danza's rule. When you're, like, at a party in the Hamptons. Like, it's only done right if Tony Danz is there and he's approved of the way, you know and when and where you're doing it. Like, this became a thing. So it got whittled down, of course, like, time wise and everything else to like, just this notion of how to trap the Sauce family with the who's the source idea that Eugene Levy has. And I will personally just never forget, like, that was another one of those moments in episode seven when Molly came in and she was telling off the actors and Selina could never keep a straight face. The breaking up of that collection of brilliant actors throughout that scene on Charles set in episode eight, when Eugene Levy started talking about Tony Danza and all of that, and Zach Galifianakis being utterly annoyed every time he heard, you're not going to talk about Tony Danza again. And then he's doing his crouching bit behind him and working out his. I don't know, he's working out his quads. What is he working on? Yeah, I forget.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'm not sure.

[John Hoffman]

Glutes. I don't remember what it is, but that was one of those great memories I have. I just remember coming up and they couldn't get through the scene.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's so funny because Eugene is just so straight talking about, like, Tony Danza. It's really funny.

[John Hoffman]

There's times when you just are in a room full of the funniest people in the world and then you're like, okay, I can't believe this is the scene we gave them to do. And then you watch them play it with utter. Like only their personalities could do it. And it. You're like, okay, well actually they sold this one.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's so good.

[Maggie Bowles]

Well, and then later on we find out in the. In the Sauce family's flashback that Tony Danza is an investor in the Sauce. Is that. What's the connection there? Like, are we gonna learn more about that? Is Tony Danza gonna show up? Is that.

[John Hoffman]

I mean, again, this goes to our lore of Tony Danza's influence in New York culture, which unfortunately did not make the final cut. But I think it would have made a little more sense because Tony Danza seems to be a bit ever present in the culture of New York in our lore. So the idea that, you know, yes, there might be a little bit of a coincidence of like, this is Eugene's plan and it also happens to be what the Sauce family was about to make a. Trying to make a deal with. So that whole thing, it feels funny to me in Wild Kawai coincidence. But on the other hand, it ties into the thing that may be on the cutting room floor.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's very funny. It's very funny. It's very funny.

[John Hoffman]

And who's the Sauce? Who doesn't want to say that a lot?

[Maggie Bowles]

Who's the Sauce? I think we talked to Kristen and Jake a little bit about all of the different Westies and. And all of their different backstories.

[Desmond Borges]

We did.

[Maggie Bowles]

Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about that.

[John Hoffman]

That's it. We learn it all here, right in this episode. It's all like, you know, I think what feels like coincidence to earlier episodes in many ways, I think across the season when you're like, wait a minute, the brothers sisters know them and how da ba ba. But it's all just the way in which to me when you're investigating something and finding out like, why are these people all here and acting like a cult? It's because they actually have roots with each other that we explore in this episode. But. But until then, it all feels weird in certain ways which feel like something to further investigate. And then the idea to me that the Brothers sisters were a part of this connection to Dudanoff and his film class and being an intrinsic inspiration for them and then to sort of realize they took this movie because of this building and because he lived in it and there was a tie to him in that way. I felt that was really cool as far as like just the things that sort of at first, on first look at something feels like, well, that how. How. And then the investigation here is personal in episode eight and the story about Dudanoff and what happened obviously by the end of episode eight for Dudenov's end, we learn, we learn has to have like really deep rooted stories, backstories for all of them. And I was very moved by, you know, our resident New York sort of research maven in the room is Madeline George. And she came in with so many stories, like anecdotal stories of rent control schemes and rent controlled plans or groups of people in apartment buildings gathering to do something with a mutual interest that was Shocking. And it over and over again we had stories like that brought into the room of people doing incredibly odd things that become like eight people in an apartment building on one floor, you know, cooked and boiled someone and blah, blah, blah, you know, and did a whole thing just to do this and blah, blah, blah. These stories seem a bit outlandish, and yet that's what we're playing off of in some way, but in a sort of like hanging to the emotional side of it with Dudenov and the wish of a dream and companionship and again, going to the sort of like, core loneliness, people finding each other in New York City. You hang on to them.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[John Hoffman]

Like a lifeboat.

[Host or Narrator]

Like a lifeboat.

[John Hoffman]

Sorry, that was. I don't know why I sang that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We're here for it, John.

[Maggie Bowles]

One of the recipients of that metaphorical lifeboat was Dudenov's friend and neighbor, Alfonso Oliveira, patriarch of the Sauce family, played by Desmond Borges. And when we talked to him, he hadn't yet seen this episode.

[Desmond Borges]

I intentionally stay away from stuff so that I can grow personal distance from it so that my, you know, crazy actor, slash. I think I'm part elephant because I remember everything, like every take all the way down to the last detail. So I really need to. I like to remove myself for a long time so that when I come to it, it's been far enough away and I could actually enjoy it as an audience member and not just go, you know, crazy, actory, nerdy about it, thinking about takes and possibilities and things like that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So what, they cut what they didn't use?

[Desmond Borges]

Yeah, yeah, well, that, you know, I learned pretty early on that, like, you can't be too precious about anything because once it's down and it's on the tape and we move forward, take it's to so many other people's discretions and not mine. So I just try and make, like, everyone one that I would be really excited to see pop up if it happens to pop up. And I feel like that was a pretty healthy mindset to develop pretty early on, I think.

[Maggie Bowles]

So I am curious when I'm sure you have friends and family who are watching the show. Do they. Do they come to you with their theories? Do you. Do they ask you questions? Do they, like, try to feel out? Or are they like, don't tell me anything. I want to see how it plays out.

[Desmond Borges]

It's more like they'll. They'll broach the subject and then as soon as I start to figure out how I can help satisfy scratching their itch without giving it Away. They, like, see what's happening in my eyes, and then they stop me cold. So it's a fun little. It's a fun little game of chicken we play.

[Maggie Bowles]

I'll bet. I'll bet. So in episode eight, we learn the backstory of the Sauce family and all the Westies. And all the Westies, including the final Westie, who he had not met yet. So can you describe to us how you think about the Sauce family?

[Desmond Borges]

Oh, you know, I. I feel like the Sauce family represents a lot of people that I've known throughout my life. Like, I grew up in Chicago and Logan square in the 80s when it wasn't hip to live there. Right. And the building that we grew up in was like a 7 flat Greystone. And my family's made up of Puerto Ricans on my dad's side and. And Greeks, second generation, third generation on my mother's side. And it was a mixture of all of us sort of living together. And one thing that I really realized about being in that atmosphere, that it's very fun, very boisterous, and sometimes those things sort of lend themselves to sort of dangerous positions because everyone's really trying to do their best at just sort of making it for their family and for, like, the extended family that's in the building. So I really, like, grasped onto that, like, very, very quickly. Right. Like, I feel like the Sauce family is just really doing the best that they can to try and make their dreams happen and, you know, give their daughter the. The. The best pathway forward that she can have. And so when, you know, they meet Dudenoff, right. They meet the other Westies, we get that very sort of lovely, boisterous, but somewhat dangerous familial setting. Right. And all of them are just trying to do the best that they can for themselves and for the collective group. And I don't see, you know, as someone who. Who lived in New York for quite a long time, I see nothing wrong with anything that they're doing, especially having a ham, you know, some prosciutto, you know, just humble. Come on. Hanging it. Who wouldn't want that? You know, just go in, get a slice, you know, I mean, it's like meat, butter. Why wouldn't you want a little bit of that action in your life on a, you know, semi hourly basis?

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. First hanging in the shower and then hanging on the luggage cart. Two absolutely perfect places to hang a Hamon Iberico.

[Ryan Tillotson]

You got to put it somewhere.

[Desmond Borges]

Yeah, well, and you gotta, you know, in the chaos, you gotta hope that they're looking somewhere else so that they're not concentrating on you. I like to think that that was, like, Alfonso's idea, but, you know, I don't want to take anything away from anybody else.

[Ryan Tillotson]

What kind of sauce were you making? Do you know?

[Desmond Borges]

Well, my favorite was, you know, like the Piri PD sauce, which is Portuguese. So it's sort of like smoky. Yeah, it's kind of like their version of, like, amatriciana, which is, you know, like the. The traditional Roman red sauce that has guancale in it. Right. So it's very. It's very similar to that, although we had a red sauce and we had a green sauce. But, yeah, it kind of had like a smoky sort of salty tang to it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Just curious sounds. I mean, sounds great.

[Desmond Borges]

I mean, I tasted all of them while I was there.

[Ryan Tillotson]

As you should.

[Desmond Borges]

I wanted to know. I wanted to know, like, are we good at making sauce? And, you know, the props department was excellent at making sauce. They had good sauce on the stove. So

[Ryan Tillotson]

after the break, who among the Westies did the heavy lifting? The best sauce on the set. And, of course, theories.

[Maggie Bowles]

Welcome back. There is a scene in this episode. It's a part of Vince's flashback back to Dudenoff's class.

[Desmond Borges]

You know, the reason It's a Wonderful

[John Hoffman]

Life is timeless comes down to one thing.

[Desmond Borges]

Casting. You know, if you can populate your

[John Hoffman]

story with the right people, your work will live forever.

[Maggie Bowles]

We wanted to hear John Hoffman's take on Milton Dudenoff's feelings about It's a Wonderful Life.

[John Hoffman]

I feel there is a potency in, like, people who love something. Dudenoff is a film professor. Dudenoff loves film, loves telling stories. And now he. It's clearly he's not going to make films, so he can only. Only inspire. So I love teachers. I love, like, the idea of people who love something so much but are perfectly happy living lives where they hand that dream over to someone else and encourage them is the most incredible thing to me. So this idea that he's looking at that movie and saying that's what he feels is like the most important thing about it is the casting of that movie because of the way it makes you feel. Jimmy Stewart has a quality that is so lifelong warm and connective, and everyone in that movie makes you feel something. And everyone who watches it can't help but be a wreck at the end of it. All of those things. But it's. That's a universal sort of emotional thing that film can do. And I think if you're A teacher and you have a love of something. I love the idea of someone when he's alone later in life and examining and looking back on his life with some opportunity to do something new or next after they've lost their spouse, putting together a cast of people in making his own sort of version of the film he wants to live in, in that building sort of felt sweet and profound in a certain way and generous again from a sort of teacher's sensibility to me. So I loved that character turn of. That's what he was doing for himself. And then he had one request that it continue. And as he says at the end of the episode, down in the basement. I never got a chance to do this, but I'm going to make one movie that really means something for this movie to continue. The movie that I've created up here on this floor, that all of you stays in it. And this is the way I think we can do that. So that felt really deeply New York. Deeply inspired by what teachers do, I think.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. Yeah. I also think there's like probably some. Some connection to like, you know, this pro. Like only murders as a project and Steve Martin and Martin short being such good friends and like casting each other as the most important person in their life, each other's lives for the next however many years. Like, you know, I feel like there's something. Something that reflects into reality.

[John Hoffman]

I never thought of it, but you're so right. It is. It comes right back to something like that. That's. That's really true. And again, I think that's the intangible with the show is sort of the emotional quality that's happening between those two guys who've known each other over 30 years and they adore each other. And there's that underneath thing that you feel that you can't create with other people who have that.

[Ryan Tillotson]

One of, I think maybe my favorite moments of this episode. I love watching Eugene mess with Steve. He's like a cat, you know, it's like the way he pushes that little omelet.

[Desmond Borges]

I love that.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, I agree with you. And he relished it, which made me really so happy because he liked that whole scene with the omelette. And then kind of excited to see him. What does it look like?

[Ryan Tillotson]

What does it look like?

[John Hoffman]

Push him out of his comfort zone and get him angry. The rage of a Canadian also was exciting to me. Sort of live in that space with Eugene Levy for a bit. I loved every minute of that storyline for him.

[Desmond Borges]

I'm a Canadian man connected to his rage right now.

[John Hoffman]

And, God, it feels so good. Charles, tantrum with me.

[Desmond Borges]

No, no, no.

[John Hoffman]

They incinerated your friend Charles and then plied you with word games from the New York Times.

[Maggie Bowles]

At the very end of the episode, we see Mabel start to maybe start on a new mural. Yeah. Is that something we can look forward to? I think her original mural was a very special thing.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I like that we see her drawing again, and I feel like it's a space, you know, her growth to sort of find her own independence and this odd space, obviously, that she's choosing to do this in. And it's hoping to sort of. Now she knows the story of Dudenov, the person who was living there. And now she's sort of claiming it in the spirit of. At the end of episode eight, I have to say, also, one of my favorite moments, maybe from the series, happens right before that. And it's just this little moment. And I almost think it was a. I think it was a thing Steve threw in, but it was her at the elevator. And we realized, oh, wait a minute, she's on her floor. She's in her apartment. The guys are going back to their apartments in the other side of the building for the first real time we've seen that. And so they all get in the elevator, and she's left outside of it, sort of independent from them. And you just see Steve look back and just say, you good? And she nods, and she's claiming some independence in it. But it's so sweet. It's. I don't know how to describe it. Those moments just. I felt.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I agree. I think that's a really special moment.

[Ryan Tillotson]

And that was just me, you know, decided on set, which I love. I love those. Yeah, I love that.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, that was Steve.

[Maggie Bowles]

I love it. It's very. It's good.

[Desmond Borges]

Yeah, you got me in touch with my emotions. Thank you. Well, it was an honor playing a small part in bringing out your true self. And, Charles, I won't alienate your audience

[John Hoffman]

by putting any of it on film.

[Maggie Bowles]

Hi. Hi. Hi.

[Desmond Borges]

You good?

[John Hoffman]

Yeah, I'm good.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Well, okay. Mags, would you say Mabel is a Westie now?

[Maggie Bowles]

I guess she. I guess she has to be. Maybe. I don't know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, well, back to our Westie of the day, Alfonso Sauce, played by Desmond Borges.

[Maggie Bowles]

We talked to Richard Kind before having seen episode eight. And we've also talked to Daphne Rubin Vega, and we've talked to Lillian Rebelo. You're the last member of the Sauce family that we're that we're talking to. But also, I was just, oh, no,

[Desmond Borges]

I'm gonna have to mess all this up now. What did they Snapchat?

[Maggie Bowles]

But I was thinking about, because you said you have, you know, half the brain of an elephant, maybe, and Richard Kind was very clear in telling us he remembers nothing about anything. And so I'm curious what the experience was like, you know, getting to know your fellow Westies on set. And then, obviously, I would love to hear about the big. The huge scene where the Westies all get to tell their stories to the two trios.

[Desmond Borges]

Well, first off, like, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's saying this on your podcast like, it is literally a dream come true on so many levels, working with the people that we get to work with on this project. Right? Like, just before we get to the Westies as a, As a little des. Like, I saw Three Amigos well before I was supposed to. And I used to walk around and make everybody call me Ned. Need a lander. Like, when I was young, I wanted to be Martin Short and Rick Moranis. Like, I, I, that's. Those are just the two guys that I gravitated to and everything. So, you know, being in the same room with him and Steve and Eugene and Selena and Zach and Eva and sort of watching, like, their brilliance just sort of spill over so easily and so naturally, like, sometimes I had to remember, oh, man, you got a line coming up. Let's stay in this sort of thing. That was usually just in the rehearsal process, not while we were filming, but, you know, trying to get a flow and a feel so that you could, you know, bring to the table things that would not only help support, you know, the overall story that we're telling, but also maybe surprise them a little bit. Right. To be able to, like, make Steve or Marty laugh at a moment that made them is, like a total, total dream come true. But if we're talking specifically about the Westies, I did my first major commercial in Chicago with Richard Kind when I first got out of acting school. It was Encore Frozen Foods. He had the. He was the spokesperson, the accounts. I still remember to this day that when something happens on set, Mr. Kind, being the lovely human that he is, he never curses. He uses the word sugar incessantly. Incessantly. It's amazing.

[Maggie Bowles]

And hearing, like, as a swear word.

[Desmond Borges]

Yeah, sugar. Sugar. You know, just not sugar. So it's.

[Maggie Bowles]

And it.

[Desmond Borges]

And it hadn't changed. It hadn't changed is like, 20 years ago, right? So, like, so seeing him and then him remembering me as soon as he saw me, because I was like someone jumping out of an airplane crashing into a frozen foods aisle. And then he was like, hey, you look like you're hungry. Here are some encore frozen foods. That's basically the commercial, right? Let Internet go find it and have fun with it. So we have that. And then, you know, I was a pretty big rent head as a teenager, you know, like, Jonathan Larson's rent is up there in one of the most magical theater experiences that I ever got to, you know, experience coming from Chicago, coming to New York, checking it out. I saw the original cast and Daphne Ruben Vega is a queen among queens as far as I'm concerned. So it wasn't difficult for me to feel jealous that my wife Ines in the show was crushing on another guy, considering just how other worldly I consider her to be as a human and as an artist. So it was fairly amazing. And then Kumail, man, I've been. I'm that dude. I. I can't say enough, like amazing things about him. Like he was, you know, they were doing Silicon Valley while we were doing you're the worst. And we used to see each other sort of at things in LA a long time ago. And to watch like, what his career has done and just how he's grown, like, I couldn't be more happ for a fellow brown man on television. Right? So, like, it's absolutely amazing from a personal standpoint and then from an artistic standpoint. All of them are crazy, crazy ridiculous. Good. And if, you know, John would. And the directors, they'd let us fly sometimes. So if, you know, someone was feeling a moment and just wanted to keep going with it, you couldn't ask for a better grouping of people just to start going off the cuff with, you know, Totally. Overall, like, what a. What a ridiculously amazing experience from top to bottom.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Speaking of Camille, how was shooting that, his A Few Good Men speech? Like, I'm so curious to know, like, how.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah. What it was like for you, for

[Ryan Tillotson]

you in that moment. Because it's ridiculous.

[Desmond Borges]

It was phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. And watching him change and color it and then like stop and get an idea and go back and then he had alts up alts upon alts for everything and then watching him go through those alts like it was like I was watching a master class in acting, you know, and, and. But it was hilarious. And that was the thing. All of us had to like, keep it together the entire time. Because depending on what version of the shot. You see, we're in the background, right? And we're invested in it. And as, you know, not. Not only just as fellow same partners, but as fellow Westies, we know this story, right? And we want to support him and have him tell it to the best of his ability to kind of, you know, keep our story as a group afloat. And it was incredibly difficult with all of them. It was incredibly difficult, especially the first couple rounds, to kind of keep it together, because you hear them start doing stuff, and it's just like, you know, it's seriously what dreams are made of. Seriously. Without a doubt. And I'm sure everyone else has said the exact same thing. So I'm sorry, listeners, I'm just repeating everything that everyone has said. Every time you've listened to this podcast, it went something like this. So you want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth. You can't handle the truth, son. We live in a world that has walls, and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it?

[Maggie Bowles]

You?

[Desmond Borges]

You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility. I'm sorry, are you gonna do the whole monologue? Yeah, I was gonna do the whole thing. I think it's than worse worth it. I have a great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Going back into your elephant brain archive. What is. What was your most memorable moment shooting this. This entire season?

[Desmond Borges]

Oh, man.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All right.

[Desmond Borges]

There's so. I mean, there's so many, but you want one, so I. I'll give you one. It's when we came back and turned the cameras around in this scene in episode eight, and Steve slowly starting to fold the blanket and starting to lose his cool, right? And then he comes over, and they've got the bit where they're not understanding him. They're thinking it's a game of charades. And I think at one point, he's like, yes, you know, like that Steve Martin. Like that face of despair. And that's amazingly hilarious that he makes. Like, watching him do that from the rehearsal through every take was probably the most amazing thing that I've ever witnessed being on set ever. Because you've seen it in its glory for how many decades? And then to watch it live, happen in front of you, watch the brilliance happen, and it be different almost every time. You just feel lucky to be in that room. And then we'd go over to our chairs and hang out between setups, and then he decided to do some sleight of hand magic tricks with his card set for us, you know, and it's you. You just to kind of like wrap that whole entire experience together. Like, I could see it in everyone's eyes. It didn't matter if you were like, little boy Desmond or, you know, Eugene and Richard, who have known him forever. Like, there's a magic that that man is able to bring to everyone at any given moment. And just like, being there for that in that thing, I'll. You know, I. Like I said, I think it's the most memorable moment in my entirety of my career thus far. Like, that day was just absolute magic in my mind.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I love it. That. That was a great scene, I think, you know, along with Eugene saying, like, I'm channeling him. I can understand.

[Maggie Bowles]

Tuned into his character. I can understand.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It's so funny. It's.

[Maggie Bowles]

What.

[Desmond Borges]

What else does he say that I. This used to make me laugh so hard. He was like, I'm a Canadian man getting in touch with my rage.

[John Hoffman]

Right.

[Desmond Borges]

Like, there's just, you know, and like, when he would do it, like. Like one eyebrow would raise and the other one would kind of stay still, you know, and it was just that you, you know. Yeah, I. But it. It's funny, but, you know, like, you, like, watch them do, you know, these brilliant, brilliant comedic things, just like giving off one of each back and forth, just giving it back and forth and you're just like, wow. Yeah, wow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Yeah.

[Maggie Bowles]

Earlier this week, we talked to writers Kristen Neumann and Jake Schnezel about the moral quandary of the episode. And we're still on the side of the Westies in their decision, even after all this time.

[Desmond Borges]

So these are not murderers? No, but we've got one hell of a podcast. And yes, we've been keeping up the ruse and. Oh, God, catch. We're going to jail.

[Maggie Bowles]

No, you're not. Guys. We used to be three lonely weirdos living in the Arconia. The podcast brought us together. I don't want to use it to tear them apart.

[Desmond Borges]

So humanity's more important to you than the podcast?

[John Hoffman]

What a revelation.

[Desmond Borges]

You know, I think the things about life in general that are morally somewhat digestible but technically illegal really fall into, like, what it's like to be a multi ethnic human in America. Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of in order in order to, like, move forward and to break down doors, sometimes you have to do something that in your heart of hearts, you know is right, yet, you know, the man will tell you that it's extremely wrong. And I think one thing that was kind of, you know, amazing about this is that these Westies know him and trust him and love him so much that him coming up with that idea, putting it forward to us, even though we don't necessarily want to go along with it because we don't want to see him go, we know he knows best. And I think that's one thing that a lot of people always take for granted, that other people live in their bodies and their skins, in their minds and their feelings for their entire lives. Right. But in that situation, you. We. We wanted to help honor him to the best of our ability. And if that was the way, then, unfortunately, that was the way. Not that it wasn't scarring, especially for our daughter.

[Maggie Bowles]

It is a. It's a very big ask. Because you know what. What they don't. What we don't see in the show is, like, the actual physicality of performing that favor for someone, which is, like, really harrowing to think about. So I'm glad we didn't have to see that on camera, because that would have been a little too dark.

[Ryan Tillotson]

It would have been very dark.

[John Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Desmond Borges]

I think it's best to let the mind wander with that one and let everyone make their own mental pictures of, you know, how that would go about.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, I assume it would be mostly Alfonso and Rudy doing the heavy lifting in that. I would assume maybe, you know, that's. That's where my mind goes.

[Desmond Borges]

Yeah, I mean, I'm. I'm. You know, in my mind, I think, like, Rudy probably picked him up and draped him over his shoulders like a barbell about to do a hack squat. And then I was like, hold on, hold on. I'll help you out. Right. Like, there's, like.

[Maggie Bowles]

It is a very philosophical episode.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Maggie Bowles]

You know, Absolutely. It asks a lot of questions, and it's.

[Desmond Borges]

That you will all keep me alive. Well, I mean, actually, no, because I've just taken a hell of a lot of pills. I want you tonight to put my body in the incinerator. Yes, yes. And then I want you to cash my son Social Security checks, and I want you to tell everybody I just moved to Portugal.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Do you know how it ends?

[Desmond Borges]

The thing is, if I say no, then that leads listeners down a pathway where they could, you know, kind of make assumptions about the Sauce family that I don't think I want them making.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Right, so there's no right answer here.

[Desmond Borges]

No, not at all. I mean, you know, if I say yes, I know how it ends, then they're, you know, let's just say when I got the scripts and I was Downloading them and, you know, chewing on them because they're so delicious and amazing. Right. Like, I really tried to go through the parts that the sauce family wasn't directly involved in, so that when I do become an audience member and I'm watching this, I feel like I'm watching that part of the story for the very first time. Right. So, like, I would really, I'd read them all and then I'd really just, like, you know, laser in on anything that had to do with the Westies and the sauce family and try to let my half human, half elephant brain forget everything else that I read, which is pretty difficult to do.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All right, time to read some emails and share some theories.

[Maggie Bowles]

And I forgot about the Easter egg earlier. It seems there's like a power outage over the opening credits in the building.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yes. Thanks for all of the emails. Thanks to Shelly J, Trish T, Maddie G, Catherine F, Patricia G, Jennifer Y, Emily P, Kate K, Courtney W, Topher H. And Tim Y. Our Easter eggspert.

[Ryan Tillotson]

All of them were Easter experts or just Tim.

[Maggie Bowles]

Tim Y Has sent a bunch of emails about each of the Easter eggs and I appreciate it. He is our eggspert.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Vinnie S. Thinks Loretta is the killer. Though I do think this theory was from before episode eight, so I wonder if he still thinks that.

[Maggie Bowles]

I don't know. I can't imagine Loretta killing anybody. She's so. She's so cute.

[Desmond Borges]

I agree.

[Maggie Bowles]

Ruth K. I'm sorry we failed you on the Billy Joel references from episode seven. Not being a huge. I'm sorry. Not being a huge Billy Joel expert. I didn't even catch them. So we'll try and ask John about it next time we talk to him.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Vinya B. Thinks maybe Doreen and Marshall are in it together and that maybe they had taken in Dudenoff's class. Possible she noticed two dolls with silver tinsel pom poms at Doreen's house.

[Maggie Bowles]

She might be onto something because she also thought that the Westies did not kill Dudenoff but did dispose of his body.

[Ryan Tillotson]

So on to something.

[Maggie Bowles]

And that we learned was true in this episode. So who knows?

[Ryan Tillotson]

Dan D. Has a mastermind theory. He believes Lesser the Doorman might be it. He noted that he's often taken for granted and that he would know everything that goes on in the building. So even though he might not be the one doing the murdering, he may be the one pulling the strings.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's very interesting theory.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Laura B. Is thinking Bev and Marshall might be involved and that Szasz And Glenn were the targets. Either because Bev is breaking stuntmen reunion rules.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Definitely.

[Maggie Bowles]

And they knew. Or because Saz wrote the script and told Glenn about it.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Interesting.

[Maggie Bowles]

Very interesting.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Liz s still thinks Dr. Maggie is involved.

[Maggie Bowles]

We'll see if we see Dr. Maggie again. And ebh, thank you for telling us that Griffin Dunn is Joan Didion's nephew. Of course. It's the same Griffin Dunn who made the 2017 documentary. The center will not hold. I wish we had talked to Griffin Dunn this season.

[Ryan Tillotson]

We should have reached out.

[Maggie Bowles]

We didn't.

[Ryan Tillotson]

No.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's stupid.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That was stupid of us.

[Maggie Bowles]

Who produces this show. What idiots.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Dumb.

[Maggie Bowles]

We also got a voice memo. Two.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Two voice memos.

[John Hoffman]

Hi, Maggie and Ryan.

[Desmond Borges]

This is Trish.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Ryan, I completely agree with you that

[Maggie Bowles]

Helga is not to be trusted.

[Ryan Tillotson]

She knew many obscure things that endeared

[Desmond Borges]

her to Dudenov, which is very suspicious.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Also, her father is mentioned numerous times.

[Desmond Borges]

Fathers are a big theme of this season. I suspect we will soon learn more

[Maggie Bowles]

about Helga's father and this will connect

[Ryan Tillotson]

Helga to Szasz's murder and to Charles.

[Listener or Fan]

So from episode one, I have theorized that there is some kind of metal poisoning going on because Charles doesn't see Szasz until he he's exposed to her ashes. And he specifically said he would leave the jar open so the water could evaporate. Several times throughout this season so far we've been reminded of the jar. He will either talk about it or will be shown it. It's just sitting in Charles's apartment, still open to the air. And I think he's just kind of being poisoned that way. Secondly, Richard Kynes character Vince, mentions in passing that he has an enlarged heart. This was like a throwaway comment at the time, but a little Google search told me that is a symptom of heavy metal poisoning as well. My theory was pretty weak until we got the information about Dudenoff being ill. So if Dudenoff was also ill when he died, we know he had a metal joint. Who's to say that's not what caused his illness? And finally, Glenn Stubbins. He seems to be hallucinating rats wherever he goes. Initially it kind of just seems it's in that bar. But he also hallucinates them when he's in the elevator at the Arconia. So it's everywhere. Now he's in the hospital. I am convinced that we will discover that he has metal poisoning and that is going to be the thing that connects everyone.

[Desmond Borges]

Wow.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Thank you so much, Trish and Makila for those voice memos.

[Maggie Bowles]

Now, before we hand it over to Hannah and the only murder subreddit, here's what the writers of this episode, Kristen Newman and Jake Schnassel, said about Reddit.

[Desmond Borges]

We'd all love to give a shout out theoretic community because they often give us incredible credit for things like anagrams.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Lots of anagrams.

[Desmond Borges]

All kinds of things that we're just going to take credit for forever and that we carefully plan it, plot it out. And we're incredibly good at stuff.

[John Hoffman]

We strive to be as intelligent as the Reddit board thinks we are.

[Maggie Bowles]

That's true.

[Desmond Borges]

They come up with amazing things. I really think they should all be hired.

[Ryan Tillotson]

They think that as well.

[Maggie Bowles]

I think they would agree.

[Desmond Borges]

Listen, if anybody wants us to figure out season five again, love it. Come on in.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Okay, and now here's Hannah with the Reddit scoop.

[Host or Narrator]

Hey Maggie, Ryan and everybody listening. We're getting so close to the big reveal now, and I really don't want this season to end, but here are the latest theories from the only murders in the building Subreddit it this episode, we finally meet Helga, and while she claims to be an innocent Westie, our members have their doubts. Mum by Mum says I don't think episode eight cleared Helga of suspicion. In fact, I'm more suspicious of her now. The way she infiltrated the Westies was too obvious. She already knew this obscure card game that they love. She already knew the Perfect Strangers theme song. She laid it on thick with Dudanoff, trying to force a father, daughter, surrogate relationship. And then there's the accent and the unusual locksmith skills. But it's really the plane ticket from Saz's desk of clues that makes me sure that she's not who she says she is. My theory is that she's undercover FBI who infiltrated the Westies to investigate an older crime in the building. She was probably looking at Dudenoff as a suspect, or maybe even Charles Dudenoff found out she was FBI and forced her out. I mean, why would her face have been scratched out of the photos unless there was some kind of betrayal? I think Helga is one of the people watching the trio this season. She flew out to LA to talk to Saz to find out what Saz knew since Saz was poking around the Westies. Next, at the end of the episode, Helga comes in with revelations that seem to point to Glen Stubbins, but member Heavenly Wail seems to think it's a red herring. They say, I wonder if Glenn was harassing Saz, trying to convince her there was something foul afoot and he's the reason she started investigating. And now that Saz was taken out, the killer is actually the only other person who knew, which is Glenn. Next up, after the previous episode of Alley of the Dolls, some people grew suspicious of Doreen and her husband Big Mike. And in Lifeboat we are told about a certain project Runkonkoma. Evelyn the cat burglar points out Rinconkoma is a town in Suffolk county in Long island and who lives in Suffolk County, Long Island Charles sister Doreen and her husband Big Mike. Now I can't wait to find out if this means anything or not, but I found that interesting. Now, despite what we found out in Lifeboats, Mark Marshall remains the sub's number one suspect at the moment. Avec Seraph the fact that Marshall idolizes Charlie Kaufman, a screenwriter famous for involving himself in his scripts in surprising ways suggests to me that Marshall's involvement in the plot goes beyond simply writing it would be very on brand to commit or otherwise orchestrate a murder that you later write about about. And finally, I've got to end with a question from L3 Razor about the true mystery of the episode. They say the real mystery is what are the 19 functions of the Lady Longorian? 19 in one multitool. I kind of need to find that out. So that was our thoughts for this week and I'll be back next week with the final season four Theories from the Only Murders in the Building subreddit.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. Please send your thoughts and theories to [e-mail] Take a minute to subscribe.

[Maggie Bowles]

Rate the Show Follow Us Leave us a review if you enjoy listening.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Only Murders in the Building podcast is a production of Straw Hat Media, hosted and produced by Ryan Tillotson and Maggie Bowles. Associate producer is Steven Markley. Original music by Kyle Merritt. Only Murders in the Building theme music by Siddhartha Khosla Assistant editor is Daniel Ferreira. Production assistant is Carolyn Mendoza.

[Maggie Bowles]

Thank you to Desmond Borges, Kristen Newman and Jake Schneezel for talking with us. And Big, big, big thanks as always to John Hoffman and the entire Hulu team.

[Ryan Tillotson]

See you next week.

[Maggie Bowles]

See ya.

[Desmond Borges]

Not to quote Drake, because that's ridiculous, but we started from the bottom and now we're here, right? Like whatever here is is like, you know, for us it was great.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I am curious how he makes a living because the Sauce family makes sauce. Rudy makes very successfully Rudy makes his influencer workout videos. And what is Vince?

[John Hoffman]

How does he.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I mean, his rent is really cheap, but I don't know when.

[Desmond Borges]

Yeah, I mean, you probably don't have to make any, you know, with the rent they pay.

[Maggie Bowles]

Yeah, 200.

[Ryan Tillotson]

I know, it's a great deal.

[Maggie Bowles]

Come on.

[Desmond Borges]

He might, you know, he might just have. I bet he gives weird speeches places and then gets honorariums for him and that's. That might be enough income or, you know. Yeah, I think like guest speaker somewhere. Or maybe he collects old maps and of the neighborhood and sells them on ebay.

[Ryan Tillotson]

That's a good idea and not saying

[Desmond Borges]

anything, but maybe we'll learn more in season five. I don't know.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Whoa.

[Maggie Bowles]

Oh, oh. I hope so.

[Ryan Tillotson]

Are you in talks with the writers already?

[Desmond Borges]

Maybe.